Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Identity Unwrapped: Navigating Identity in a Diverse World
28 Plays1 year ago
Join us for a thought-provoking episode of “The 3D Podcast” as we engage in a stimulating conversation with Tash Koster-Thomas, Co-Founder of Breaking the Distance and an expert in Inclusion and Diversity. Tash shares her unconventional path from being a theater performer to becoming a consultant in Inclusion and Diversity. We delve into the meaning of identity in a diverse world and address both the positive and negative aspects of this reality. The episode concludes with practical steps that can be taken both in and out of the workplace to foster a more inclusive world.
Connect with Tash
Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/in/tashthomas
Website: https://www.breakingthedistance.com/
Recommended Books :
Disability Visibility: First-Person Stories from the Twenty-First Century by Alice Wong : https://a.co/d/7btJWl7
Diversify by June Sarpong : https://a.co/d/6uhS6xF
The Inclusion Nudges Guidebook: https://a.co/d/6kRgHgp
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
you
Introduction to the 3D Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, I'm Cedric Chambers, and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the 3D Podcast, a masterclass where we share with you everything you need to know about how to transform diversity and inclusion in your organization as well as in your community. We're on a mission to amplify the voices of leaders that are making an impact in the world today so that we can have a better tomorrow.
Podcast Mission: Amplifying Impactful Leaders
00:00:34
Speaker
Our goal every episode is to keep it simple, honest, and transparent with you by uncovering the truths in diversity and inclusion with the hope of creating behavioral change all while presenting it from a unique perspective. So look, if you're ready, get your notepad out, pour you a drink, and let's dive deep as we discuss the dimensions of diversity.
Guest Introduction: Tash Kastur Thomas
00:01:04
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of 3D Podcast where we speak to real practitioners that are making a real change in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space. Look, I'm excited for our show today as we are speaking to Tash Kastur Thomas, an equity, diversity, and inclusion consultant and co-founder of Breaking the Distance.
Insights on Diversity Barriers and Equity Opportunities
00:01:20
Speaker
So just to provide a little context on Tash, Tash is an inclusion and diversity consultant, presenter, speaker, and LGBTQ plus activist who was at the forefront of many of the conversations impacting the diversity, equity, and inclusion space. Tash used her lived experiences and identity as a black queer woman to provide valuable insights into how to remove barriers associated with diversity
00:01:42
Speaker
and
Cedric's Anticipation for Tash's Insights
00:01:43
Speaker
constructively ensure that opportunities can be accessed with equity in both the workplace and wider in our local and global community. Look, I hope that everyone is ready to just soak up this knowledge, get your pen, get your paper out, whatever you take, no switch your phone. Look, because I know I'm ready to soak this knowledge up. So let's get right into it. Tash, how are you doing today?
Energized Discussion Despite Time Zones
00:02:04
Speaker
I'm doing really good. Yeah, it's the end of my day. So it's chill. It's chill at this point.
00:02:10
Speaker
I know, look, it's not the end of my day, but we're saying, we're gonna think that it is, and we're gonna have that same exuberance for the show today. I like that.
Identity: A Complex and Sensitive Topic
00:02:22
Speaker
I'm excited for the topic today because we're speaking about identity. Identity can sometimes, if not most of the times, be a sensitive topic as it encompasses so much, race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion, socioeconomic status, ability, and much, much more.
00:02:38
Speaker
But as we're going through and having that conversation and learning from you, we definitely just want to get that insight for someone who's doing this work every single day in this space.
How Identity Shapes Perception and Interaction
00:02:49
Speaker
And I would say that it's also noteworthy to say that when we think about one's identity, it shapes how they view themselves and how they interact in the world around them. And so as we go through this conversation, we're going to touch on that as well as a variety of other topics within the discussion.
00:03:03
Speaker
But for the conversation, the place I like to always start is for our listeners just to be able to get a background of who you are, just sharing a little bit how you got into the space, your career journey up into this point.
Tash's Journey from Performer to EDI Consultant
00:03:17
Speaker
I know it's probably not conventional, as you get a lot of HR people that go into this space and what just inspires you to focus on identity within your work. And so if you could just share a little bit about that, I think we can start there and we can take it from there.
00:03:30
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. You're right, I had a bit of an unconventional journey into the EDI space. I'm originally and still, I guess, classed myself as a professional performer, singer and dancer, trained in musical theatre, and I still do that today. That's kind of like my, I guess, professional background in some instances. And then sort of the first, I guess, real step into what I would now call like the EDI space is my wife and I, back in 2019,
00:03:59
Speaker
set up a platform called Breaking the Distance, which was around promoting, I guess, positive visibility of LGBTQ relationships. We wanted to be the representation online that we hadn't seen for ourselves growing up and sort of developing and coming out.
Passion for Consultancy Through Lived Experiences
00:04:15
Speaker
And so that was kind of the first, I guess, real sort of entrance into EDI. And through that, you know, being
00:04:23
Speaker
approached by different organizations to say, you know, the work you're doing is really good. And you have, we want to hear your lived experience a little bit more. And then I really sort of found a passion for this work based off of my own identities, I guess, you know, as you said, I'm a queer woman of color. There's a lot of labels there, I guess, in terms of how we
00:04:43
Speaker
label ourselves in society and so that was kind of the first shift and then gradually. I started really getting into design and delivery but also supporting organizations not just coming in and speaking about pride month and allyship but actually broadening that and it was i guess through understanding.
00:05:02
Speaker
and developing my own identities that I really then started to get really interested in identity work itself as a whole in some of those earlier sessions, just seeing the response of people when they started to explore this topic, but also realising how little we explore it.
Identity Exploration Influences Consultancy Approach
00:05:19
Speaker
We often explore sort of the, I guess, the effects of an identity, whether that's around unconscious bias and et cetera and allyship, but we don't ever actually explore
00:05:28
Speaker
our own identities and how they inform our decision making, etc. So I've always found that really, really fascinating and it's now sort of become the foundation of the work that I do.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's something that just listen to your background and knowing that you are a performer. And I think that gives you this ability to be able to even shift your identities when you're on stage and be able to play the part. So let me just tackle this really quick. So in your performance piece, what are some of the roles and some of the type of performances that you do?
00:06:04
Speaker
So I originally
Performing Arts Influence on Identity Exploration
00:06:05
Speaker
trained in musical theatre. That's my real passion. So, you know, anywhere from like forever dusty and, you know, playing real life characters, I guess, right through to I spent a lot of time working on Carnival Cruise Lines actually as a dancer. So it's a very different, right, like every single
00:06:24
Speaker
like dance number you come out and do is a different identity whether you're doing right now it's going to be a country and western number now we're going to be in an 80s theme so already that like shifting and then I guess more recently I have been in two tributes so one that's around a little mix
00:06:41
Speaker
the band, the girl band, and also the very, very well-known Spice Girls. So I have been playing the part of Mel B for a good few years, which is definitely an identity that my seven-year-old self is very, very happy to play.
00:06:55
Speaker
There we go. Look, what's the show? America's Got Talent. Yeah, that's the one. Oh yeah. You're next. You're next. No, this is great. And I love the, just the space, right? You know, as you're thinking about your background and coming into this work and thinking about identity, right? It's something that we don't touch on a lot, as you've mentioned, but it shows up with us everywhere we go, right? You know, something that, you
Understanding True Identities for Growth
00:07:21
Speaker
know,
00:07:21
Speaker
I won't say it's a certain state can't get rid of, which you probably can. But we need to do more when it comes to embracing it, right? And I think that when you said that very few people explore their own identities, that is something that we're going to talk more about it. But it's something that's true, right? It's almost like the do we know who we really are sometimes, right? We see who we are and how we show up. We know our representative that goes to certain places for us. But then when it comes to like, who are we really?
00:07:50
Speaker
what really matters to us, how do we see ourselves in the mirror when we see ourselves, right? I don't think we explore that enough to really unpack it fully, right? And so when we think about this context of identity, and you explained a little bit about, but one, just as a clear kind of definition so that people are grounded on this, I'll say one, what
Fluid Nature of Identity
00:08:13
Speaker
is identity? And then two,
00:08:15
Speaker
Can you just explain what it's all about and how do you think the labels that we use in society and the boxes that we like to place people in impact the understanding of identity? Yeah, it's actually interesting in terms of how, you know, we I don't think you can separate the two in terms of how we, you know, interpret our identity through society.
00:08:41
Speaker
I think that that's kind of synonymous quite often. How we view a particular identity isn't necessarily based on how we personally feel about it, but it's actually all the messages that are provided to us and sent to us from the external environment, right? So how I identify and how I feel about being a woman of color is, you know, I can sit here and say, I'm completely comfortable about it. And I'm really proud of it. But actually,
00:09:05
Speaker
It's also influenced by when I walk into spaces and I am the only person of colour or I walk into a space and I am part of the majority, right? The external environment is really going to impact how I feel about that identity in and of itself.
00:09:21
Speaker
In its simplest form, I would say identity is the unique way in which we experience the world in its kind of most base, I guess, if you want a definition. And obviously it's not something that's static. It's something that's always moving, always fluid. And I think this is where
00:09:37
Speaker
Sometimes people can shy away from it or not wanting to tackle it because we generally like to find fix solutions for things we like a yes and no answer a black and white solution and identity is really fluid as i said you know it can change.
00:09:52
Speaker
based on your mood, it can change on your environment, the people you're speaking to, there are so many different elements. That's actually what I love about it, is the fact that it isn't so fixed. That's a massive part about when I am doing deliveries, about really unpacking that, and it's not that we're going to come to the end of a session and say, oh, I understand everything about myself, and I know all of my identities. It's more a case of, oh,
00:10:15
Speaker
why I'm aware now of how my identities are impacting me or not in some cases, right, depending on what those identities are.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah. So you touched on that too. When you think about the sessions, right? So you are a consultant. You are in many of the conversations that are happening on the ground and trying to help others really understand the topic. And so in your work and in your practice, how do you approach it in your sessions? And then what are some of those strategies that you're using to help people gain that self-awareness?
Broadening Identity Through Diversity Training
00:10:48
Speaker
Quite often I come at identity initially through the avenue of diversity, right? Where a lot of people come into the session, it's diversity and inclusion training. And we're talking about diversity, but people I know enter the space a lot of the time thinking of diversity as maybe one or two characteristics.
00:11:04
Speaker
it's race and it's gender and maybe disability if we can think that far and actually we are so much more in terms of our diversity than that so that tends to be sort of the avenue that we come in to help us understand what diversity truly can be and is and so it's kind of more of like an overview to begin with in terms of how we can talk about
00:11:25
Speaker
identity. So our primary identities, the ones that we see in policy and procedure, your protected characteristics, the ones that say it's illegal to discriminate against this person based off of X, Y, and Z, right? And these are the ones that we often think about how we categorize ourselves.
00:11:42
Speaker
But in extending that, our external identities, the ones that we learn are taught to us that come through the media, whether that's through the language that you speak, the religion that you have, the working style that you operate with, your communication style, your organizational status, the level at which you sit in your company, the hierarchy, all of these different identities are factors during our day-to-day. And when you sort of break it down for people, all of a sudden they think,
00:12:12
Speaker
I've never thought about the fact that I'm an introvert.
00:12:15
Speaker
as being part of my identity, or I've never thought about the fact that I'm quite direct in terms of my communication style as part of my identity, but I can absolutely see how it impacts my experience, but also how I interact with other people.
Daily Impact of Identity on Interactions
00:12:31
Speaker
And then I like to ask people questions. Think of an identity that you're proud of. Think of an identity that you think about often, one that you very rarely think about,
00:12:42
Speaker
one that you wish others understood about you or one that no one knows about you. How do you answer those questions? But also how do you answer those questions in different contexts? So generally when I'm doing delivery, we're talking in a workplace environment, but are those answers the same when you remove yourself from the workplace and you think in the context of friends and family?
00:13:07
Speaker
or in the context of around strangers, right? All of these different things can suddenly awaken a whole other way of thinking, but also a whole different form of awareness about who we are and how we experience the world.
00:13:23
Speaker
Oh, I love that, I love that. And I think that even breaking it down that way, when you think about your communication style, because I mean, that's how people see you, right? That's how they experience you, right? And so that is a huge part of your identity. I would argue to say, and I could be wrong here, like when you think about the various different personality quizzes and assessments that are out there, that's doing more to inform your identity as well, right? And how you work and how you operate and,
00:13:51
Speaker
just being able to understand yourself more through those personality assessments is something too that's important to really take it to heart. I think sometimes we can go through and be like, yeah, I agree with it. I don't agree with it. Whatever the case may be. But it's one of those things like it's an element or a tool to be able to use for the self-awareness, self-reflection piece to say, is this me? And am I showing up like that? And one of the things that you mentioned was
00:14:15
Speaker
you know, there can be situations to where you're showing up and you might be, you know, one of few in the room, right? And I think that's where identity probably is like the, how we view it, right? As a society, it's like one of few in a space of whether majority is different. And so when we think about
00:14:33
Speaker
the environments that we're finding ourselves in, how do those environments affect our identity and how we show up in those spaces, right? And I'm interested too, because one of the words that came to my head was like, I think it's called code switching. Yeah.
00:14:48
Speaker
And that's one of the things that popped in my head when I said this, is that how does it impact how we show up? And I would love to hear, as you've navigated through your career, an experience that you may have had as you looked at your identity and how your identity has shifted and changed in different environments that you find yourself in.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, it can massively shape how we show up. And I think it's really interesting how for a while we've had this concept of bringing your whole self to work. And what does that actually mean? And how appropriate or how right is that for everybody in terms of the environment that people are entering into?
00:15:27
Speaker
You know, one of the things you mentioned, code switching and also assimilation, for those who maybe aren't familiar with the term, code switching is when we will change or shift our linguistic style to suit the environment that we're in. So in the simplest form, your phone voice, you pick up the phone and you hear a certain person on the phone and all of a sudden it's like, hi, my name's, yes, I'm, you're speaking with Tush Costa Thomas. Yes, that's right. And this is in its most simplest form, but what we find actually is that
00:15:54
Speaker
Many of us are doing this in day-to-day, particularly in work environments, particularly in certain industries where perhaps our accent isn't acceptable, our dialect, certain elements of the way that we speak or due to our upbringing are seen as less. And so we shift our way of communicating in order to adhere to what is perceived as the correct way. And then also assimilation, which goes a step further.
00:16:22
Speaker
We think of this in terms of cultural assimilation. So somebody will adapt their own cultural style in order to fit into the mass of dominant culture. So we think about that crowd mentality, right? That's the perfect example of assimilation where you have somebody who outside of one environment, let's say, for instance, a football game.
00:16:42
Speaker
is a perfectly respectable person, but when they're within this football environment and it's really loud and boisterous and somewhat aggressive, they take on that group mentality. They assimilate to that group culture. And we see this so often in work environments. We see it throughout society in general, but I think when we think of a workplace, it's an easier sort of example for us to see these different things play out. And so it's a massive thing in terms of how we're constantly
00:17:13
Speaker
adapting. We're constantly playing chameleon individually and collectively in order to try and fit in to what we think the mould is. And ironically, a lot of the times that mould is created by us collectively,
Workplace Influence on Identity Expression
00:17:25
Speaker
right? We'll all sign up to something even though none of us really agree with it or want to participate this way, but we're all kind of too scared to break away from that. And we see it so, so often. The environment, I think, is a massive part of what can shape
00:17:42
Speaker
who we are and how we show up is the environment that we're in. Yeah, I love the word chameleon, and you made me think too in the phone voice. Like, hello, this is Cedric speaking. As soon as you find out somebody you know, bro, what do you want? Right? It's a whole different situation. It's like, look,
00:18:06
Speaker
But it's true, right? And I think that, in be honest, yeah, some of it is needed because let's say you're in customer service, right? There's a way you approach those conversations that might be different than for someone you're meeting for the first time, this may be the only time you ever speak to them in that environment versus someone you speak to every single day. And you have many more touch points, right? I would say that way, right? So they can really understand like,
00:18:30
Speaker
you know, who you really are. And it was something I'd be honest with you. I had to, early in my career, I struggled with it, right? I spent all my life in the South, in Georgia. When I got my first kind of corporate job, I moved to the Midwest. And this was the first time someone was like, man, you country. And I'm like,
00:18:49
Speaker
What does that mean? Like, yeah. It's like an accent, man. It's like, I got to cut your accent. I'm like, I don't know. Right? You know, what's the troubling thing is like one, when you're in an environment where I was growing up, you didn't notice it. So it's not something that was like forefront in my mind when I thought about it. And then whether good or bad, it was something when I was told it over and over, it was like, I started to think about it more.
00:19:15
Speaker
And I think that when I started to think about it more, it put me into a space to where, yes, I was being more conscious of it, but then when I was being more conscious of it from an element of trying to, I don't want to say please other people, but it wasn't, it made me kind of go into a shell, right? A little bit. Right. And I think this is also like what you speak about there is a really key thing is sometimes the biggest moment is how an identity is received.
00:19:44
Speaker
Right, so if that person is like, wow, oh my gosh, you've got a Southern accent, like I love a Southern accent, oh my gosh, I just have you here, like, oh, just speak to me all day, because like, versus like, you can't treat, like, that's a very different response, and it then informs how you behave afterwards.
00:20:01
Speaker
This is when I say right at the top of this and we're talking about identity and you asked about society, I think we can have a perception of what our identity is, but actually it's the external environment that's actually telling us how we feel about our identity and either reinforcing it and supporting it or sometimes the complete opposite before we've even had a chance to figure it out ourselves.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And so that's just a note, right? For everyone listening, it's like when you do encounter, you know, folks that, you know, just have that something that is unique about them right in this space, right? How we approach it is a big piece of how they're going to continue to show up in that conversation properly.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah. Right? And how confident they're going to be, right? And how they're going to feel within their own skin in that space. Yeah. Let's say it that way, right? And so when we think about that, right? In what way? So we know about talking about society here. How do we shift the conversations?
Curiosity Over Judgment in Identity Exploration
00:21:03
Speaker
around it. And I would like to, I think in this part, one, get some overall context, but two, you just gave one example of kind of how to respond, right? And now I'm gonna tell everybody when you say I'm country, I'm like, look, this is a better way you could respond to me.
00:21:19
Speaker
But that's something that folks need. Folks don't always know how to respond, right? And so when you're dealing with people that may have strong accents or you're dealing with people that may look, feel, act differently than you, how do we address those instances, knowing it's on the top of our mind?
00:21:36
Speaker
It's on the top of our mind. We see it. We hear it. We're trying to not think about it and still have the conversations. But what are some of the ways in which people can want to dress or just approach the conversation in a more receivable way when they encounter these situations?
00:21:53
Speaker
I think it's around about having curiosity rather than judgment. And sometimes before you open your mouth to say whatever you have to say to that person, actually just taking a moment and pause and listen to the internal dialogue that's going on inside you.
00:22:10
Speaker
What are the thoughts that you're thinking? What are the things, the assumptions you're making, the stereotypes, the boxes that you're putting that person in based on your own bias, based on the movies that you've watched, the thing your grandmother told you, the thing that your best friend told you. All of these things are influencing how you perceive the world around us. Actually, there's a tool that I often talk about in my sessions when we're talking around
00:22:35
Speaker
sort of overcoming or trying to reduce the impact of bias and that's like flip it questions just in the moment in your head like you have a response to somebody and you ask yourself a question just to flip the perspective so you know if this person had the same accent as me would i interpret what they said differently or would i put more value on what they said would i respect them
00:22:58
Speaker
in a different way right if this person was the same age as me would i you know would i be making the same assumptions about them if this person was the same gender is me sexual orientation whatever it may be if i was to receive this email or this comment how would i feel about it.
00:23:15
Speaker
Just in the moment, actually just pausing and taking a moment to listen to that internal dialogue and question it, ask it. Okay, maybe there is a bias showing up here. Maybe I'm about to speak from a perception that is actually not even mine. It's a learned thing that I watched a show on Netflix and now I've decided that this is fact and actually have a person in front of me and how about I give them the opportunity to share themselves authentically and then I can form my own opinion.
00:23:45
Speaker
No, I like that. I like that. You remind me about a trip I took to Southeast Asia. And we was in the mix with the people, living amongst the people. The comment came up. It was, wow, you're very different than what I see on TV. And I was like, whoa. I'm packed at more, right? But what people are seeing informs how they're going to receive you, and they're going to place an identity on you, whether it's you or not.
00:24:14
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. And that's a tough thing, right? And so when we think about, and this isn't work, it's outside of work because you got different cultures that deal with this from a generational perspective. But when you think about that generational difference, right, and how identity is discussed, how is it discussed and how can we, when we think about being in the workplace right now with so many different generations,
00:24:44
Speaker
And so many folks have their views. You have people that are like starching like, this is the way it's supposed to be, or this is how we grew up. We don't talk about it. How do we get into these environments and just begin to break down those barriers to have more fluid conversations around identity when you think about the generational elements? Yeah, I think how we speak about identity in
00:25:07
Speaker
2023 compared to how we spoke about identity even like five years ago is in a very different state.
00:25:14
Speaker
I think that there has been this resistance for a while that it feels like, oh, identity is just claiming more labels. You just want to have more things and more ways to define yourself. And don't get me wrong, there are people that absolutely come at it from that perspective. But I think it is more about understanding yourself. Your identity informs everything about
00:25:37
Speaker
Everything the way you see the world the way you respond to people the you know, your mood in of itself can impact how you respond to the world around you. And so I think now it's around evolving the conversation and I start every session by saying, you know, we're talking about identity. I'm not talking about this in a way to give you more labels and put you in more boxes.
00:25:58
Speaker
not that at all. You can take or leave whatever you want from this, but it's about that self-reflection and understanding how all of these different things have got you to where you are. And for some of it, maybe there are certain identities or certain messages
00:26:14
Speaker
and things that you've taken on that actually you can release and let go of versus holding on to that as a part of who you are. I can sit here and say, I'm a queer woman of color, woe is me, my life is really hard and challenging. Or I can say, I'm a queer woman of color, look at my intersections, look at how much of the world I can connect with and how many
00:26:34
Speaker
how much empathy that gives me for people, not just of my identities, but all the identities I don't have. So I think it's really about focusing from that element rather than, oh, it's just another label, another tag. And I think the other big shift that we see now is, I mentioned the word intersectionality. Thank you, Dr. Kimberley Crenshaw, for that word.
00:26:57
Speaker
You know, and I think it's really important to acknowledge it that for a long time, we've looked at identities in isolation. So you are a woman, full stop, or you are, you have a disability, full stop, or
00:27:12
Speaker
Actually, all of these things are interconnected. You cannot be one without the other. Your experience as a woman with a disability is going to be different to your experience as a male with a disability, or your experience as a parent versus being a male parent who is gay is going to be very different.
00:27:32
Speaker
that is where I see the conversations now really starting to evolve is to understand our many intersections and for some people it feels overwhelming like how do we think of everybody that's saying things to think about and it's not that you always say to people it's not that you have to think about everybody but it's that you have to be prepared to hear
Intersectionality of Identities
00:27:53
Speaker
and to listen and to create an environment where people can share. You're not going to create an event where you think of every single adjustment, but what you can do is ask the question, do you require any adjustments? Then it's up to me if I want to come forward with it rather than you trying to preempt and second-guess all of my needs. That's impossible. But at least ask the question, what does support look like for you? That's the step forward.
00:28:20
Speaker
I love that. I love that. And I think that when you say it and you come in from a genuine place, folks can hear that. Folks can see it and hear it. And it's like the way you approach the conversation, tone, structure, curiosity, like I said, curiosity versus judgment. I love that. You understand or the receiver understands what you're trying to get out of the conversation. And I think that how we
00:28:43
Speaker
This is almost like when we think about these conversations around just meeting different people, we almost just have to sit with ourselves a little bit more and just say, there's a lot of people that I'm going to come and interact with. I'm going to come into contact with every single day. And when this happens, how do I make sure
00:29:01
Speaker
that I could show up in a way that is not offensive in a way that is respectable and in a way that really shows that I am curious to learn more about them. And I think that until we really have those conversations when I sell, it's going to be difficult, right? Because you can see, you know, you might see somebody with a certain name and then you'd say, where are you from? And you'd be like,
00:29:22
Speaker
New Orleans. Now, where are you really from? How can you approach this conversation a lot differently? I think that if we spend more of that time on the practical nature of these are ways to approach it, I think it'd help us so much more. So much more. Yes, we can become aware that it helps us get through the first barrier.
00:29:45
Speaker
Now the conversation is, once I'm aware, and like you say, you stop and you think to yourself, what are the thoughts in your head? What are some of those preconceived notions just before you speaking? The next piece is, all right, how do we give folks the tools to be able to now address
00:30:02
Speaker
what's in their minds, because to a certain extent, sometimes, I can say all the time, because some things we should keep in our heads. Absolutely, and that's also not a bad thing, right? We don't have to say everything that we're thinking.
00:30:20
Speaker
Oh man, I had to stop for a second. I was like, nah, some things we need to keep. We need to keep. It's so, when we think, so thinking about this right, contextual right in, in, in organizations, right? So for the leader that is listening for the practitioner, and it doesn't even have to be a DEI or HR leader, but for those who are trying to just move things on the ground within the teams, within
Creating a Feedback Culture for Inclusion
00:30:46
Speaker
the groups,
00:30:46
Speaker
What can individuals within organization because i know i would say what can organizations do like what can the individuals inside of the organization is due to foster just more inclusive environments right back by acknowledging respect employees of us i didn't.
00:31:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's, you know, there's lots of different things that you can do in terms of, you know, we think of the traditional setting of training and those types of things, whether it's like unconscious bias training and having specific days around, you know, and I do think that there is definitely space for when we have those specific like awareness building days.
00:31:23
Speaker
where you know yes that's great for kind of creating a general sort of idea around you know what is the purpose of pride why you know what is the history behind black history month all of these things but actually it's about creating environment where.
00:31:38
Speaker
more than anything, we create a culture of feedback that is safe. Because how are we going to have these conversations? How am I going to be able to exercise my curiosity or even challenge and speak up when something is done that made me feel uncomfortable? How am I going to be able to do that in an environment where
00:31:58
Speaker
either I feel like it's not going to be listened to, it's going to be shut down or I'm going to be victimized. I won't. I will probably either keep myself quiet or eventually remove myself from that environment altogether. So one of the biggest things that I really advocate for is creating a culture of feedback where it's about saying,
00:32:15
Speaker
I know I don't have all the answers. I am human and as humans we make mistakes. I'm still learning, learning about you, learning about identity, learning about my own identities, but I welcome for my own development your feedback. If I get it wrong, tell me. I will apologise and I will hear and I'll try and implement whatever suggestions you give me. And that has to be a culture that isn't just
00:32:40
Speaker
on one level, it's just the frontline staff that do it, or it's only from managers down to staff in terms of appraisals. It's everybody. And I had an example years and years ago when I actually worked at Apple and I had been there for less than three months. I was still in my probationary period and I was having a conversation with some customers and a store leader came over
00:33:02
Speaker
and joined in the conversation. They had 10 to 15 years of experience working with Apple, store leader, a lot of responsibility and a huge amount of respect within the store. They were in the conversation and some of the things they shared were incorrect. I felt a little bit blindsided in terms of the way the conversation happened. Afterwards, I went and found them and said, do you mind if I give you some feedback around that interaction? The first thing they said was yes.
00:33:29
Speaker
And I was like, oh, OK. I kind of wasn't expecting that, but here we go. And I gave feedback. And after, as they said, thank you. I really appreciate it.
00:33:38
Speaker
And that for me was huge, right? I understand that regardless of responsibility and title, this is an area where we're equal and that you're doing it because you want to develop yourself, but also it helps to support me. And I think that first and foremost within any organization is when we talk about culture and developing an inclusive culture, that has to be one of the key elements of it is it's a culture where
Equal Feedback Opportunities
00:34:01
Speaker
we're all equal here and we can provide that feedback in a way that we know it's for the betterment of everybody, not just one or two people. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that. Man, I think sometimes you come down and just say, hey, we're human. Yeah.
00:34:22
Speaker
Can we give each other grace? Can we just work through this together? We're almost at the end here, but I do want to ask this one, and this is more, we've talked about when people may say things about the situation or someone's saying I'm country. For someone who's receiving that, how can someone respond to opening up the dialogue in a conversation
00:34:45
Speaker
because I want to even give individuals who may have been approached in a way that wasn't correct, giving them the tools as well, to be able to respond one, so that we can kind of settle the statement that was made, but then two, be able to open the dialogue.
00:35:04
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I'm really a big advocate for this in terms of we've got into a culture of like, you can't say that, don't say that, you mustn't say that. And that instantly puts this barrier, it puts a wall. If you're on the receiving end of someone saying that to you, you feel defensive. You feel like you have to justify what you've just said and you probably feel really embarrassed, right?
00:35:28
Speaker
and you go away without any answers. You are none the wiser. You don't know what you've said, why it was wrong. You don't know what to say otherwise, and you're not going to ask any questions. So the thing that I really advocate for is number one, again, that curiosity versus judgment, but really bringing it back and saying, I know you're not
Curiosity-Driven Feedback Dialogue
00:35:46
Speaker
a bad person. I know it wasn't your intention.
00:35:48
Speaker
but that made me feel uncomfortable, right? We focus so much around intention and a lot of these things and odds are a lot of the time the intention was not to offend. It wasn't to upset somebody quite often. It came from a positive place, but the impact was negative. So let's talk about the impact. I know it wasn't your intention, but that comment made me feel uncomfortable. I know it wasn't your intention, but I found that question appropriate, right? Or it can even be simpler than that.
00:36:15
Speaker
I'm curious to understand why you're asking the question. I'm curious to understand what you mean by that comment, right? Whatever it is that will allow us to connect to that person and maybe understand where they're coming from. I had an example recently with, I was at an event with my wife and we were talking to a guy for a little while and after about 10 minutes into the conversation, he asked the question about how we knew each other.
00:36:39
Speaker
And obviously assumed that we were friends. And I said, no, this is my wife. And he had a very visual reaction to that. And I could have instantly judged him on that. And instead, I said, look, I'm curious to know what you were thinking when I said it's my wife. And he said, well, I've recently moved to the UK. I'm originally from Saudi Arabia. And I'm also half Guyanese. Now, both of those countries, it's illegal to be LGBTQ.
00:37:02
Speaker
He then shared, you're the first two women in a relationship that I've ever met. Okay, now I have an awareness of where you are and potentially the questions that may follow are going to be in a different headspace to if you are somebody who's born and bred, grown up in the UK.
00:37:24
Speaker
And you're coming with a very different experience, a very different set of biases, and I can acknowledge that. So our conversation going forward looks very different. But if I had judged him straight away, then I would have stepped away probably thinking, you know,
00:37:39
Speaker
I don't know about that guy. He didn't seem very nice and would have formed my own assumptions around him and his identities, right? So I think first and foremost, it's around really trying to create conversation versus building more barriers and blocks and everything else.
00:37:58
Speaker
looking for what is the most productive way in this moment that we can actually talk and communicate and understand each other versus, you know, just going to shout you down. And I appreciate that at times things can feel emotional. We can feel angry, frustrated, upset. That feedback doesn't have to come in the moment. We can take a moment to step away and feel all the feelings and come back a day or two later and say, hey,
00:38:25
Speaker
Do you mind if I talk to you about a conversation we had yesterday and something you said to me? Look, I know it wasn't your intention, but that made me feel really uncomfortable and I needed to bring it up with you today. It doesn't have to always be this, you're wrong, don't say that, you're a bad person, because I think that's where we've ended up in a lot of ways.
Misconceptions and Dialogue for Growth
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah, and I love, and thank you for just explaining that because the conversations need to be had. And if we take the first statement of what is said and we don't really help unpack it, like you said, they're going to leave that conversation no more informed than they were when they came in, which ultimately in a day for the person that made the comment or made the face or however may be, they aren't going to get better.
00:39:11
Speaker
right in their walk, in their journey on this space. And so I love that. And I think that for those who are receiving it, I mean,
00:39:21
Speaker
You have to really make a decision. Is this an opportunity for me to educate or to share more information? Or do I just flip off? The countdown is happening right now. Mel Robbins says, you got five seconds, five seconds in your mind. What are we going to do? But that's a real thing. I think if we have more people that approach it that way, every opportunity is an opportunity to learn. And if we think about that,
00:39:51
Speaker
we can help more and more people move forward in these spaces, right? And so it's about starting from a common place. Let me get you to a common ground, common understanding so that I can't teach you the world in this short discussion, but at least you can get more understanding and begin to hopefully help inform the way you connect and speak and interact moving forward. Yeah, absolutely.
00:40:17
Speaker
No, this is awesome. It's awesome. So look, you know, we get into the end of the discussion. So for the audience, what are a few gems that have been helpful for you that you can share with the audience? Just help them grow in this space, whether it be books, podcasts, videos, movies, et cetera. What are some of those nuggets that you could provide so that people can really after this episode, go dive deeper into the topics and really, really go learn more on their own.
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a whole reading list and book listing resources as long as my arm. But in terms of some of the key ones actually around identity, there's a really good book called On Identity by Amin Maloof, I think it's pronounced, but for sure that'll be in the show notes for you, which is one of these books that you read and you're like, oh, I've never thought about. And he really goes into talking around how we feel when core identities are under threat and how that really can shift
00:41:13
Speaker
how we feel about an identity, but also how much we connect to it, how important it is to us, and how we show up in environments. I think that's a really, really interesting aspect, especially when we think about in the workplace, what happens when people's core identities come under threat, and are we responding to that, and are we aware of that, and that can be threat that's
00:41:33
Speaker
Interpersonal, but it can also be societal threat, right? So if you have somebody of a particular identity and there is a huge narrative happening globally around that identity, what does support look like for that person? How are they now showing up in that environment based on that? And then in terms of other resources, I mean,
00:41:50
Speaker
I tend to kind of also support specific identities. So I think it's really key to kind of delve in and start to understand more about identities that maybe you don't, that don't apply to you. So one of the really good books I've read previously is Disability Visibility by Alice Wong, which is all around
00:42:09
Speaker
you know, variety of different people with both neurodiversity and physical disabilities, as well as to my trans sisters around trans identities. There is Diversify, which is an amazing book by June Sarpong, which is kind of like an action guide. And then actually a really good one, if you are looking for an actionable guide to help within a work environment is Inclusion Nudges. It's a guidebook.
00:42:33
Speaker
which gives lots of different ideas in terms of how we can shift people's perspectives and way of thinking within the EDI space as a whole. So not specifically just focused around identity, but there are some great, great exercises in there that you can try out in your environments, in your workspaces, in your teams, particularly for leaders. Those are just a few.
00:42:53
Speaker
of my resources, as well as just jumping on Ted and seeing him talk Pops out. Look, don't say we didn't give you the list now. Literally. Look, you get the list. All you got to do, right, in the technology world we live in, you just got to watch two videos and then everything else is going to come to you.
00:43:18
Speaker
So no, this has been great. And we will put the links to all of those books inside of the show notes so that if anyone's interested, you can go to those notes and be able to go in and click and review or purchase any of those books. Well, look, this had been an amazing conversation. But before we go, do you have any shout outs, any parting words, and then where can people find you if they would like to dive deeper into your brain, your thoughts, and really unpack this conversation a lot more?
00:43:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Firstly, thank you for having me. This is my favourite topic to talk about, so being given a platform to just chat about it for ages has been my happy moment. In terms of connecting with me, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Tash Costa-Thomas. Costa is with a K. K-O-S-T-E-R. You can also reach out to me on Instagram. It's actually where I
00:44:02
Speaker
spend a lot of time, tasht.uk, and also come and find the platform I have with my wife, which is Breaking the Distance. All one word, that's on Instagram as well. And we do have a podcast and a website by the same name, so just pop all of that into Google and we will pop up for you. But absolutely, please, please reach out and say hi. If I can support you in any way, I will do. However, I'll also warn you, as of this recording, I'm about to go maternity leave and a new identity is about to come to me.
00:44:31
Speaker
Very quickly. We are six weeks away from motherhood, so that's a whole new identity I will be exploring in the coming months. It's going to be fun. Got my three little munchkins running around. It's going to be fun. Like I was up at one o'clock this morning with a fever and didn't have any medicines, so I was just rummaging in the street. What's up? What's up? What's up? Tiling all in my tree.
00:45:02
Speaker
How did I wish I could have been asleep? No, that's a true story. Oh man. No, this has been good. Well, look, that does it for us. Thank you everyone for joining us on another episode 3 podcast. This is Ms. Cedric, and you've been listening to Taj Costa-Thomas, co-founder of Break in the Distance. We hope you've enjoyed the show, and we look forward to seeing you and sharing with you on our next episode. Have a good one. Thank you, Taj.
00:45:36
Speaker
Awesome. Well, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on another episode of the 3D podcast. If you would like to connect on social media, follow me on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook at Cedric and Powers. And if you have any questions you'd like me to read or answer on the show, or just want to know more about my thoughts around diversity and inclusion, entrepreneurship, or just overall business, you can text me. Yes. I said text me.
00:46:01
Speaker
at 770-285-0404. You'll receive content straight to your phone on a regular basis and you can message back and forth with me. Not a bot or an assistant. All responses come directly from me. But look, this has been a great episode. Until next week, this has been Cedric Chambers and you've been listening to the 3D Podcast. We out.