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Developing a Diversity Recruitment Strategy w/ Adrienne Lucas
31 Plays2 years ago
This week, for episode 22 of “The 3D Podcast” me, Cedric Chambers sits down with a diversity leader, Adrienne Lucas. During this interview, Adrienne shared her thoughts about D&I Leadership Development This is a great episode packed with a ton of gems, so get your notepads ready as we dive deep and “Discuss the Dimensions of Diversity”.
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Transcript
Introduction to the 3D Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
you
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, I'm Cedric Chambers, and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the 3D Podcast, a masterclass where we share with you everything you need to know about how to transform diversity and inclusion in your organization as well as in your community.
Purpose and Approach of the Podcast
00:00:26
Speaker
We're on a mission to amplify the voices of leaders that are making an impact in the world today so that we can have a better tomorrow.
00:00:34
Speaker
Our goal every episode is to keep it simple, honest, and transparent with you by uncovering the truths in diversity and inclusion with the hope of creating behavioral change all while presenting it from a unique perspective. So look, if you're ready, get your notepad out, pour you a drink, and let's dive deep as we discuss the dimensions of diversity.
00:01:13
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 3D Podcast where we speak to real practitioners that are making real change in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space.
Meet Adrian Lucas: Background and Role
00:01:21
Speaker
I'm excited for the show today as we are speaking to Adrian Lucas. Adrian is a diversity and inclusion strategist for the National Association of Minority Speakers. In addition to her work at NAMES, Adrian is the global director of diversity and inclusion for a marketing and advertising nonprofit.
00:01:36
Speaker
Over the years, Adrienne has worked on diversity initiatives for many major companies. Some of those include Amazon Design, Google Creative Lab, Estee Lauder, Lockheed Martin, and WPP. She received her Juris Doctorate from NYU Law and is passionate about the intersection of law, social justice, and civil rights. Her aim is to have every workshop and conversation that she facilitate lead to better understanding and open-mindedness among the participants.
00:02:03
Speaker
Look, so without further ado, I hope you're excited because I know I am. Let's jump into this discussion with Adrienne Lucas. So how are you doing today, Adrienne? I'm doing all right. It's beautiful outside and happy to be here.
00:02:16
Speaker
Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, look, I'm excited for the discussion today. You know, really, really looking to dig into this information.
Adrian's Journey into Diversity and Inclusion
00:02:22
Speaker
But before we start the conversation, what I would like for you to do is could you provide just a little bit of your background, kind of your career journey up until this point? You know, how did you get into the DNI space just so that our audience can get a better understanding of who you are?
00:02:36
Speaker
Yeah, so I was raised in Queens, New York, which is definitely one of the most ethnically diverse areas in the country. And growing up, I went to Bar Mitzvahs, Quinceaneras, and I had friends of every color, and that was normal to me. In addition to that, I am a first generation American.
00:02:57
Speaker
So both of my parents were born and raised in Sierra Leone, West Africa, and they immigrated to the country for college. So in addition to the richness of my experience growing up in Queens, I was also influenced by West African culture. That's just to provide some context.
00:03:12
Speaker
So here I am, this Sierra Leonean American kid from Queens, and I'm deciding where to go to college. I received a full academic scholarship to attend the University of Pittsburgh, and I was really excited about graduating from college debt-free, gold, right? What I didn't think about was the culture shock that I would experience.
00:03:32
Speaker
Pittsburgh is located in Western Pennsylvania, and it borders Ohio and West Virginia. So it pretty much has a Midwestern feel. And that was really big departure from my life in the big city. And in fact, a lot of my friends from Queens thought Pittsburgh was near Philly. It's not.
00:03:51
Speaker
And Pennsylvania is a big state. And so as background, Pittsburgh is a majority white city and it does have pockets of black people, but an even smaller number of Asian and Hispanic populations.
Understanding Diversity and Power Systems
00:04:05
Speaker
And that was definitely reflected in the demographics of the university I went to. So there were classes where I was the only black student and I felt a burden to be the ambassador for my race.
00:04:16
Speaker
And I became really interested in the nexus between diversity and higher education. And the more research that I did in this space, the more I realized how helpful it is to be able to talk the talk, read legislation, and understand the systems of power. So for me, that meant going to law school, although I will say that is not the only path to doing that. That's just the one that I chose.
00:04:40
Speaker
So after graduating from NYU Law, I started working in higher education, and I had an amazing opportunity to teach a course on cultural immersion to college students. And that just kind of kicked everything off for me. I spent the next few years helping educational institutions, nonprofits, and a law firm develop their diversity talent pipelines, which I know we're going to talk about today, create inclusive work environments, and drive initiatives to help with employee retention and engagement.
From Initiatives to Consulting: Adrian's Path
00:05:08
Speaker
And that also sparked my interest in consulting work. So hopefully that gives you some backgrounds. No, it does. It does. It does. So let me ask you this. I mean, you have a rich background, you know, as you've kind of navigated through your life, your career, like what are some of those, like some of the biggest learnings that you've kind of just acquired along the way that's really helped you in your career?
00:05:31
Speaker
I think it's really helpful to talk to as many people as possible and to learn from as many people as possible outside of your circle. I say that because I grew up in a house, right? And I had two immigrant parents. And based off of my world, that meant that we were middle class, right? I thought we grew up
00:05:55
Speaker
comfortable because I grew up in a home, right? It had stairs in it. I had my own room. But then I went to law school and I took this course and it was literally called class and the law. So I guess I should have expected this. And then the first day of class, the professor asked us, like, you know, how many of you grew up middle class? How many of you grew up wealthy? And I raised my hand when she said middle class. And
00:06:22
Speaker
when my peers started describing their middle class experience, I was like, oh, just kidding. I was not middle class. I think it's just so important to talk to people and learn because that will open your eyes. And sometimes that will maybe help you reassess where you think you are in society, but also just being more in tune with the world. So that's the example that I have for that.
00:06:52
Speaker
No, awesome, awesome. I love that look. He's like, oh, that's middle class. Y'all get your own bedroom. And you don't have to share a happy meal. Get out of here. Get out of here.
00:07:04
Speaker
Oh, no, that's great. That's great. So as we're talking about diversity, recruitment, inclusive hiring, this is this is one of my just favorite places to be when it comes to discussions and conversations. And I want to jump right into it. And so, you know, when you think about this topic, like, what do you see as fundamental issues as it relates to diversity, recruitment, when it comes to companies and why they can't seem to grapple or solve this problem at their organization?
Misconceptions and Need for Diverse Perspectives
00:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's because there is an underlying assumption that some executive leaders and recruiters have that diverse talent isn't as good, right? Or isn't as smart. And that they're settling that that company has to do in order to increase the number of diverse employees. And they need to get that out of their heads.
00:07:52
Speaker
Diverse tech brings a different cultural background, experience, and insight that makes this hella valuable, right? And people only continue to get more valuable over time because we all know society is changing. Consumer bases are changing and the census projects that the US will become minority white in 2045. So if a company keeps looking at hiring and policies from a strictly white lens, they will fall behind in the future.
00:08:22
Speaker
I will say that that is the biggest problem we have. So we made a statement and I want to unpack this really quick. So when you say that individuals or companies are thinking that diverse talent, they aren't as smart, right? Where does that come from? I mean, how much do you want to unpack this? We could go. I got some time. I got time today.
00:08:51
Speaker
I mean, this is literally rooted in culture, right? I mean, there's a lot. I mean, first of all, when you ask people in America, like I've facilitated a conversation for a company before, and I was like, what is the first thing you think of when you think of African, you know, history or black history, and they talk about slavery?
00:09:18
Speaker
Right? If that is your first understanding or perception of a people, right? Is taking that understanding back to their origins in Africa, where people were kings and queens and had whole kingdoms, right? I'm thinking of these expansive empires, then
00:09:43
Speaker
it will trickle down into your perception of these people, right? So I think the problem is that our history in this country has been riddled with us constantly fighting for equality, right? Us constantly fighting for a seat at the table that maybe there are some people that wonder like, is there a reason why they don't have a seat at the table?
00:10:10
Speaker
Right. And so it goes that deep. And I think a lot of the work that we're doing now is changing that narrative and helping us, helping people see us for who we are, because we've always been who we were. But it's about people seeing us for who we are. Right. And I think that this is happening now more
Cultural Influences on Diversity Perception
00:10:29
Speaker
than ever. But there's just so much things that happen historically that have colored people's lens, you know, and made them have this perception of us.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, I love it. I love it. I mean, you know, we talked about the slavery piece that, that kind of hit me because it's one of those things to where you hear today, right? That, you know, hey, there's been so much progress that's been made in the black community, right? You know, things are better than they were. And then it immediately comes to my mind and I'm saying, so to say that things are better than they are,
00:11:01
Speaker
Please tell me the starting point in which we're talking about, because if you start our existence as like, hey, black people popped up as slaves, then you're thinking that's the beginning up until now, then you may can look at that. But until you, like you said, unpack what happened before slavery, knowing that we didn't start there.
00:11:18
Speaker
There's so much rich in the history, so much rich in the impact across the globe, the societies that have been created out of Africa, and just understanding that piece. It's something that one, mainstream media just doesn't get when it comes to their view of Black Americans, when it comes to talent. And so those perceptions start to get formed at an early age for individuals, that they're not smart, they're not intelligent.
00:11:46
Speaker
They don't work as hard, just all these different things that are false. But how the media portrays it is definitely something that impacts people's view on who we are. And it's also understanding, I want to say this for folks who are listening, that it's one thing to be something to someone else. But then the ultimate question is, as Black people, who are we to ourselves? And that's the question that we really got to understand and answer.
00:12:09
Speaker
because that is a much deeper and richer conversation and means a lot more than who we are to other people and how they see and see us in the lens through their view. So I love it, I love it, I love it. And so- And a follow up, I'm sorry, quick follow up- Go for it. But also our educational systems, the fact that for instance, the New York Times 1619 Project, right? That there's so much resistance to teaching that in schools. The fact that when I went to public school in New York City,
00:12:39
Speaker
you know, the only vision I saw of myself in the school books was as a slave, right? And we didn't talk about how there were slave rebellions, right? We didn't talk about how black people, like our strength and our resistance. And so that's a part of it too, the resistance to tell our full story, you know, in our education systems as well, so.
00:13:10
Speaker
All right, look, I love it. Look, you still have people who don't want to admit that the Tulsa riot happened, right? Black Wall Street's burning. You got people who still don't want to believe it. And you got people today, two or three, that are still alive.
00:13:25
Speaker
when it, you know, from, from when it happened. Right. And so it's so much right there that we can unpack in that question. And so let me ask you this, as we continue to think about recruitment, we continue to think about talent. How do you feel the claims that black talent can't be found these claims come from organization? Like how do you feel about that claim? And, and why do you think a lot
Challenges in Finding Black Talent
00:13:46
Speaker
of companies are using that? Like as a reason as to why you don't have talent within the organization?
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, first of all, that's total bull because black talent is everywhere. The problem is companies are lazy. So let's be real. They want to take the easy way out and do lateral hiring, meaning stealing black talent from their competitors instead of doing the work.
00:14:07
Speaker
So we're reassessing their hiring practices, making connections with Black professional organizations, HBCUs, and also hiring talent from related industries, thinking outside of the box a little bit, right? In addition to that, establishing and maintaining strong D&I initiatives to keep talent, not just playing MLK's I Have a Dream speech in February and hosting an Asian themed cooking class in May, because that is, again, lazy.
00:14:35
Speaker
Also, looking ahead, so investing in pipeline programs, you know, at least at the college level. But if you could reach back further and start impacting high school students doing that. So we are not the problem. We are here. Clearly, we are here. It is up to companies to shift how they are doing their hiring. They're doing the same things and expecting different results. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And say something that's also interesting about that.
00:15:05
Speaker
that find a very, I won't say alarming, but a very interesting point is that it's amazing how companies can find black talent when it comes to hiring in an organization. But there seems to be no problem when it comes to selling their goods.
00:15:22
Speaker
selling their products, selling their services, but they find us immediately. They know how to do black targeted marketing to make sure that we go get the shoes, the hat, the belt, the match, the cologne that make you smell good. There's no issue with that part of it, but there's an issue when it comes to bringing them into the organization to see the other side to work, to have them a part of that workforce. And so I always thought that was interesting. You can find me if you want to. You just don't want to.
00:15:50
Speaker
Right. I do diversity and inclusion in the marketing and advertising industry. So it's so interesting that you use that example. I say that because the big thing is authenticity. That is always the big word. And I could just envision these marketers in a room struggling over how to market this product to black people. And I'm like, you know what would make this a lot easier? If you... Black people.
00:16:19
Speaker
This is what I want to see in this community. We're literally working five times harder trying to tap into how we think and doing all this research, trying to tap into how we think. And you can literally get members of the community at the table there to say, this is how we think. This is how you should talk to people. And it does a good job because that also helps prevent getting canceled, right? Because you put out the wrong message and now you've offended people and now you got to issue all them statements and apologize.
00:16:49
Speaker
Just bring it into the room. Yeah, look, it seems like it would be that easy, right? It's like, look, I know the answer. I got the answer that will save us another 150 years in doing this, right? And so when we think about hiring, right, and we're thinking about, like, how do we as practitioners set up that process,
Inclusive Hiring: A Four-Step Process
00:17:06
Speaker
right? How do we, you know, make our hiring process more inclusive? What is the process? What are those steps?
00:17:12
Speaker
as organizations are looking to get deeper in this work that they can take in order to improve their recruitment process and make it more inclusive. And just kind of thinking about that, like, how do you approach it, you know, from a strategy perspective? And then also, you know, if you've seen any companies at each of those stages that I would say haven't been as successful, like, what could they do in order to get back on the right track?
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah, so for me, it's a four step process. That is accountability, doing a diversity hiring audit, goal setting, and then measuring results. So I can start with accountability.
00:17:52
Speaker
So, you know, when you're trying to solve any DNI issue, most people start by looking at the numbers because what's measured gets done, right? That's true. But my question is, who is doing the measuring and who is driving these initiatives one to two or three years down the line? I say that because there's a lot of momentum for DNI at the beginning. Everyone's excited about change and making a difference. And then the roadblocks kick in, things get tough. DNI isn't trending anymore, right? So then people start to wane.
00:18:21
Speaker
As a diverse person, as a black woman, for me, this will never wane because this is a part of my life. But for people who aren't as directly impacted, it's easy to be like, eh, this got hard. Let me put it down and just back to my other work, right?
00:18:37
Speaker
So we can do all the research in the world, but if there's no one accountable to seeing these initiatives through, they will fail. So the first step under accountability is establishing an executive DNI committee, right? A group of leaders
00:18:54
Speaker
across departments who are tasked with having these conversations and they are the people responsible for seeing this through, right? It can't be this sort of vague, yes, DNI is everyone's responsibility. It is, but there needs to be a core group of people that we can turn to and say, how come we didn't deliver on the results we set out to, right? Then we step into the diversity hiring audit.
00:19:23
Speaker
So this is pretty much an assessment of your current hiring processes. And this is where you're going to have to tap into HRIS for sure. And they can sell the human resources information systems, and they can now give you some data. When you're looking at the data, you have to see what patterns emerge, what teams within the company are the least diverse, where are the most critical needs, is it in the areas of race, age, gender, sexual orientation, a combination of all, right?
00:19:52
Speaker
need to look at that data and make sense of it. And then goal setting for any of these initiatives to be successful, you need a budget. I feel like this is obvious, but you'd be surprised. And not just a budget, a budget large enough.
00:20:08
Speaker
Right not know i don't know how big these companies are but you know some of these budgets are really disrespectful budget large enough to support training consultants programming sponsorship for external dni programs and possibly both is for companies that go above and beyond right i mean for please that go above and beyond.
00:20:28
Speaker
and then measuring results. So you've done all the work. Now we need to see how well we've done compared to the goals that we set, right? So in terms of where companies fail at each part of the game, under accountability, there needs to be skin in the game. So I would say that
00:20:50
Speaker
you know, you should tie compensation to the committee's effectiveness. And, you know, whether that's a bonus that people get or whether it's like, it needs to be tied to compensation because how else do you get someone that has no
00:21:10
Speaker
real reason to care about this, right? Besides it's still the right thing to do. To do when it impacts your pockets, that's the universal language, right? Money, right? We can all talk money. And I think that that's how you do it.
00:21:26
Speaker
Next, when it comes to the diversity hiring audit, I think what needs to happen is there needs to be a really nuanced analysis of the numbers. So one, you need to figure out like how many diverse people are applying for the roles, right? Because that's going to shed light on how effective your pipelines and your outreach are, right?
00:21:49
Speaker
then how many people are receiving offers? Because this is where like a lot of bias can come into play because there could have been a candidate who did perfectly well in interviews and they seemed qualified, but why didn't they get it off, right?
00:22:03
Speaker
And then you need to know how many candidates are accepting offers. Is there qualified, diverse talent that's choosing not to work at the company for some reason? And that's always the one that gets like me thinking the most where I'm like, wow, this candidate was amazing. They were charismatic. They checked all the boxes.
00:22:19
Speaker
We gave them a great offer. They said no. That means there was something that was said in one of their interviews or something they read about this company during the interview process and some article that made them say, nope, not for me. And that's really the one that I like to dig into.
00:22:36
Speaker
Also, the thing that annoys me is all the emphasis on bringing people in the door and not keeping people there. I think companies, again, to that point that I said about being lazy, don't be lazy. Once you get people in the door, how are you retaining them? This needs to be the availability of ERGs, opportunities for mentorship, sponsorship, and promotion. Companies need to take note from other organizations like LinkedIn and Twitter,
00:23:05
Speaker
And pay your ERG leaders, right? Like LinkedIn is paying $10,000 now. So running those events is work. And that is cute, but it's not enough, right? Yeah. So with goal setting, I would just say the biggest problem again is creating the large enough budget.
00:23:25
Speaker
I think that's the big issue. Then also, knowing where the budget lives, I find that a lot of companies get confused about where D&I should sit. Some people have it sit with HR, sometimes it's its own department. For me, I prefer for D&I to be separate from HR, but I think that's where the problem lies. Also more generally, the company needs to promote
00:23:53
Speaker
and express the importance of having a willingness to change, right? And there's some work that needs to happen. Because could you imagine that you've been going, working, let's say you're a recruiter, and you've been recruiting one way for years, and now all of a sudden, some consulting comes in and gives you some two hour presentation and says, this is the new way you need to recruit.
00:24:13
Speaker
After two hours of conversation, these reporters got it. I never could never look a qualified diverse candidate. This is hard work. This is continuous learning. I think you also need to be sympathetic to people who are really trying to open their minds and do the work, but this is just new terrain for them. There needs to be constant education. Talk to people about these different
00:24:38
Speaker
sort of biases, right? Affect, heuristic, confirmation bias. Like there are literally terms for this, right? Teach them what these things are. Have examples, have Q&A sessions about this and conversations about reassessing your hiring tactics so that this change can happen over time. It's not going to be overnight.
00:24:57
Speaker
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I love it. I love it. I love it. I got I got a lot of things I want to I want to touch on here. You struck a chord with me. Where does D and I sit? Right. Because that's always a discussion which shouldn't be a discussion at the end of the day. Right. It's one of those things that where if it is that important to you as a business, it must report into the CEO, first of all.
00:25:16
Speaker
if it's that important, the same way money is important, finance reports to you, same way people, HR, everything aligns from there. So that when the CEO has that big pocketbook sitting up there and it's time to divvy out the money, you're not getting hand-me-downs from HR or another organization within the business. And so that's important. And then also something, when you think about, I want to add on to that, this is one of the topics that I love is that
00:25:43
Speaker
Also, one assessing where in diversity recruitment audit, taking that internal look as well to make sure that you're looking at where are we starting, right? Because it's one thing to go out and do diversity recruitment and to have more inclusive hiring processes, but then all the talent still comes in at the lower level, customer service, production associates, right? But when it comes down to director VP plus C-suite, still not getting any visibility, no opportunities at that level.
00:26:13
Speaker
when we say it starts from the top, right, but we have no influence at the top of the organization, right? And so, you know, still making sure that you go through that process intentionally and be intentional about this is what we're going to do, and this is where we're going to start because of this reason, right? And so that you can have, you know, that
00:26:36
Speaker
for knowledge, when we talk about accountability, who's gonna be looking at these metrics from years down the line, we have folks sitting at the table who can fight, who can go to bat for us, that can make sure that we have representation at that level of new organization. Two other things that came into my mind when you spoke, and we'd love to get your thoughts around this, is what do you think the approach needs to be when it comes to the actual hiring managers? And them,
00:27:03
Speaker
assessing talent. And we talked about like at the offer stage, what happened, you know, what was the situation, why they declined the offers. But what needs to happen as it relates to development for hiring managers, so that we can get ultimately more output at the end of the day when it comes to talent, making it completely through the process and actually onboarding to the organization.
Intentional Space for Diverse Candidates
00:27:27
Speaker
I think that hiring managers need to be deeply invested in making sure that they're bringing on diverse talent. There's this program or approach called the Rooney Rule, where for any poll you have, you will see at least a certain amount of candidates that are diverse.
00:27:48
Speaker
And I think that from the beginning, that needs to be the understanding. I am intentionally making sure I am creating space for a diverse candidate. That may not be the candidate we actually end up hiring, but I know that I have at least created a space where a diverse candidate could have been hired into this role. And that has to be non-negotiable. That's it? Yeah.
00:28:17
Speaker
No, I think that's awesome. And even to the ruling rule, that's just the start, right? That's a place where you could start, but that shouldn't be the ultimate goal, right? Because at the end of the day, right, we wanna make sure that as hiring managers, and I had a client come to me one time, kinda quick story, and they said that,
00:28:37
Speaker
You know, hey, my hiring managers say they want to do diversity recruitment, hire more diverse talent, right? They say they're doing it. But when you listen to them in the town that they're looking for, you read the job descriptions. It's almost like they're trying to hire themselves, but they just want them to be like...
00:28:54
Speaker
So we think about how managers assess talent right how we how we look at how they look at talent right you know what does recruitment need to do right to make sure that. Ask recruiters you are the way in for the talent at the end of the day.
00:29:12
Speaker
They've only spoken to you at this point. If they go through the next stage and interview, at the end of the day, if you think that talent is great, then you should be the one going to bat for them. Regardless, the manager says, hey, I'm an expert in this field. You should be an expert at assessing talent as a recruiter, and you should be able to go in and make sure that
00:29:29
Speaker
when you start to hear things that don't sound right, when you start to hear comments to where I have a gut feeling, or you start to hear things around, they went to this university and they just don't produce good engineers, or you start to hear these things. It's the recruiter's responsibility in that process to make sure that that does not become a determining factor in that person being offered the opportunity.
00:29:52
Speaker
Absolutely. And to your point, it is true. I think that you have a hiring manager who creates this vision of the person you want in that role. And they want them to go to ex school, and they want them to have played these sports and to be interested in these things. Because a lot of times they're looking for, as you said, either someone who's like themselves or someone they feel like they could be best friends with. Yeah.
00:30:17
Speaker
just because you may not think you could be best friends with this person off their resume, who knows? You may end up being that, but does that mean that that's not the best person for their job? Right?
00:30:29
Speaker
It's like we are all different, right? So not everyone is gonna go to the top five engineering school for a program. That doesn't mean that they're not the best person for that role, right? You have to just think bigger, think bigger. That's one of the key problems that we have.
00:30:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, no, I agree, I agree. Let me ask you this, I'm curious when it comes to, and I have a thought here, I look at talent acquisition as gatekeepers, right? If you look at talent acquisition, the gamut of what I see, especially in the corporate space, is that a lot of the TA leaders are white women. And then when I go deeper into their teams, they're typically white women as well, they're actual recruiters on the team.
00:31:18
Speaker
And when I'm thinking about the ability for a recruiter to go out and effectively source talent from different backgrounds and I see the.
00:31:30
Speaker
the makeup of the individuals on the team. And then I'm in these conversations and the conversation is, conversations are, hey, how can we help our recruiters go out and source and get more diverse talent? Or how can we make sure our recruiters have more courageous conversations? Or all of these different things are around recruiters. And this idea popped in my head as I was thinking through all the declines that we worked with over the years. And I thought to myself and I said, well,
00:32:00
Speaker
Rarely have I ever seen an organization to where they wanted to get to a particular percentage in representation, to where their recruitment team didn't make up that number from a representation perspective.
00:32:20
Speaker
When I thought I was thinking about, I'm like, all of these companies that are saying, we want to do this, we want to do that. And I look at the recruitment team, the people who are searching, sourcing, interviewing talent, you have one, maybe two out of 75 recruiters are black and Hispanic or Asian. And so that piece right there, I want to get your input on it, but I'm like, when I look at the gatekeepers and I look at the backgrounds where people come from and I see the questions that are being asked in, can you help us do this?
00:32:49
Speaker
And I'm thinking to myself, well, how about from a TA perspective, we just turn that mirror around and say for a second, let's not worry about the rest of the organization. Let's start right here. That's the part. And you know, that's so true. And what that forces diverse candidates to do, I feel like people are doing this less, though.
00:33:10
Speaker
is to make themselves seem more palatable to white artists, to the white recruiter, particularly the white woman recruiter that they know they'll be working with. So for instance, I have naturally curly hair. Back in the day, because I knew my recruiter was probably going to be a white woman or, you know, like a white person, I would straighten my hair. I would
00:33:37
Speaker
sort of make sure that I avoided saying certain stories from my background or certain things that may make me seem unrelatable to them because I was trying to connect with them. And that is too much. That honestly is too much. We should not have to do that. And I don't do that. I stopped doing that a long time ago. It's like, I'm coming as I am and you like it or you don't.
00:34:02
Speaker
That is the problem, right? Also, this makes me think of a story someone told me. They attended HBCU, and there was a recruiter from a large company that went to their school. This was years ago, so the salary is really low, but he said, you know, the salary for this job is X amount. I mean, I'll say the amount, 30,000.
00:34:26
Speaker
you know, she said, but you know, you can get an apartment in New York City, and you could do this, you could do that. And people started, you know, turning around with what? $30,000 in New York City. And
00:34:39
Speaker
Two things, like one, you don't know anyone's financial background. So one, I don't want anyone to assume that I can't afford an apartment in New York City, but at the same time, I also don't want you to assume that because what she added was, oh, you know, when someone said, oh, but I can't afford an apartment in New York City for $30,000, she was like, oh, your parents can help you. Don't assume that my parents can help make up the difference either. And this is why you need diverse
00:35:08
Speaker
recruiters, right? Because what comes with that is a variety of cultural experiences and background, right? Because if this recruiter came in with a buddy, right? Regardless of what race, somebody that just came from a different economic background than she did, she could have tapped her on the shoulder and been like, no, no, like that's, that's not gonna work and intercepted, or maybe they would have practiced what they were gonna say the night before. And she could have been like, no, don't even say that. Cause let me tell you why. And this is why,
00:35:39
Speaker
it will, you will just always be served better when your team is diverse. There's just no way of getting around, right? Because you have to be able to catch each other, right? You have to, because no one's going to be a bigger expert on a community than members of that community. And so you're going to need to be able to lean on each other for expertise and background and be able to say, all right,
00:36:03
Speaker
this is the best way we should approach it. Let's come together and think like, what is our best approach of speaking to this audience? Like how do we tap in? How do we best connect with them? And you're not gonna do that without a diverse team of recruiters. That's just that.
00:36:17
Speaker
Yeah, and it's always something that a lot of organizations, they just don't want to grapple with. And it's one of those things I'm like, well, you try to, you know, it's all a good intent to say, hey, we want to do this for the organization, but we have to, you know, we have to have this conversation with ourselves because sometimes, right, I'm not a big proponent of a lot of training.
00:36:37
Speaker
I think that it comes down to more experiential type of relationships. You can have some type of informal trainings, but how do we make sure that we take the content that we're trying to get across, the things that we're trying to get out there, and we're trying to put it in instilling the everyday work that those members and those teams are doing. So when you have more interactions with individuals from different groups,
00:37:04
Speaker
You start to get a one a wider lens and a better understanding and more points of reference to understand the issue, right? If you let Fox News or CNN or network mold your perception of a particular group
00:37:19
Speaker
then you're going to have a particular way by which you try to address or approach or the timidness in those situations or, you know, I don't want this person, you know, this woman, this black woman to be, you know, aggressive when she's not aggressive. Like all of these different things start to be debunked, right? When you start to have those conversations and more interactions, we start to get the reference points. You know, it's critical
00:37:44
Speaker
that we hire those people on the team so that, you know, we don't look at training as an aspect to just make someone more comfortable, right? To make you feel comfortable about where you are and what you're doing. But we look at it from an aspect of how do we really change and transform, you know, the culture, the company by starting with ourselves as an organization and talent acquisition. And so, you know, I thought this just was something that, you know, I see a lot of organizations grappling with and I'm like, well, let's start with the people who go out and find talent.
00:38:13
Speaker
Let's start at the source of the problem. As we're thinking through this, and we're getting closer to the end here, there are leaders, practitioners, people who have experience in diversity recruitment, diversity and inclusion in general, people who don't have a ton of experience maybe just getting into the field.
Tools and Authenticity in Diversity Efforts
00:38:36
Speaker
But for practitioners going down this path, if you could give them two to three actions that they could take,
00:38:42
Speaker
I have to listen to this episode to where they can stop the episode, don't stop it, just saying that, but they can end the episode and start to wrap their brains around two or three actions that they can take back tomorrow to the organization to get on the right path. What actions would you give them? Yeah, one, using technology to promote inclusive hiring. As you talked about, a lot of hiring managers are
00:39:09
Speaker
a lot of times looking to hire themselves or their friends, right? So if you use technology to write gender-neutral job descriptions, there's things like Textio and Gender Decoder that you can use, or writing more inclusive job descriptions, there's something called Talvista that you can use that will help. Why? Because we are humans, right? And, you know,
00:39:32
Speaker
Just to your earlier point, I wouldn't want anyone to feel particularly singled out because we all have this learning too. We can all learn from other communities, right? And we just need to realize we are all flawed and we have to be open-minded to changing. So technology definitely helps. This sounds basic, but we talked about this. Your recruiters have to be diverse and culturally competent. As you said, this is the first representation of your company to the candidate, right?
00:40:01
Speaker
I wonder why some candidate is mysteriously not moving forward in a process. Trust me, it probably has something to do with your recruiter or something that was said early on in the process that maybe rubbed them the wrong way. And then I think it also boils down to authenticity. So if you want a diverse company, you have to hire people who are diverse and the company needs to own
00:40:30
Speaker
their stance on DNI, right? They can't half step it, right? So if you are really committed to diversity, it has to be at every level. You can't just have this all white male executive leadership team then saying diversity matters and I wanna see diversity everywhere. Like, well then somebody gotta give up their seat for y'all gotta create more seats for the people, you know what I mean? Like there has to be a commitment to it. And this is something that came up
00:40:57
Speaker
for me recently with work. Also, when you are creating a platform or when your company is creating partnerships with other organizations, are you doing your research into those organizations and making sure these aren't, you know, people or companies that support maybe initiatives that
00:41:17
Speaker
really don't, like, I'm thinking of maybe certain politicians that are particularly polarizing, right? Like, things like... Private prisons, you know, these different... Exactly, exactly. And so make sure that you are authentic from top to bottom, because save all those flowery statements about Black Lives Matter and anti-Asian hate if you're not really going to back it up and be authentic about it throughout.
00:41:44
Speaker
Awesome. There you go. There you go. There it goes. And so look, to end this discussion, this is one of my favorite parts here. And so, you know, I would say probably about 10 years ago, a little bit than 10 years ago, we did something in grad school that I really, really enjoyed. And, you know, it had to deal with, you know, helping people understand what's your legacy that you want to leave behind.
00:42:02
Speaker
And so I love asking this question because I am big on like, what's the legacy? Because I feel that in order to have that legacy, you have to be working on it now and always, right? And you have to be intentional about that legacy. And one of the things that we did to help us through that process was creating a leadership legacy statement.
00:42:22
Speaker
And so what I would like for you to do is think about, you know, in 25 words or less, like share with the audience, what is your leadership legacy statement? And I want you to think about it this way to where whether I engage with you one time or whether I engage with you 10 times, I'm going to have a perception of who you are.
00:42:40
Speaker
And for you, it's about being intentional about the perception that you leave and what people say about you so that when you're in your career later on and you're looking back, I know exactly what people are going to say because I made sure that every interaction I showed up that way. And so when it comes to this leadership legacy statement, 25 words or less, can you share with the audience what is your leadership legacy statement and what do you want people to say about you after they leave a discussion or engagement or interaction with
Real Discussions and Solutions: Adrian's Legacy
00:43:09
Speaker
you?
00:43:09
Speaker
Adrian kept it real with me, period, but not just that.
00:43:16
Speaker
but we talked about the problems, but she really made me focus on solutions. So that's that for that. I don't know if you need me to expound on that. All right. Oh, this is good. This is good. This is good. Well, look, look, this has been an amazing conversation. Before we go, any shout outs, any parting words, and where can people find you if they want to connect with you, they want to kind of dive deeper into your brain and how you think about some of these things?
Advocacy for Diversity within Companies
00:43:40
Speaker
Yeah, I would just say that corporate America is changing. If you see a problem at your company, say something, right? Say something to HR, say something to a leader. If you're nervous about doing that, singling yourself out, grab some colleagues, they're strengthened numbers. And if you feel like you can't find a space at your company, go somewhere else. And this is, of course, assuming that your bill's a page, you're okay, because I don't want to set anybody up for that. But go somewhere else because
00:44:07
Speaker
Once companies see that their diverse talent is leaving, they're going to get nervous and they're going to have to start assessing what's going on. If you can't find a space for yourself in these companies, build your own. I think that we have been trying so hard to fit into these spaces. We have been ignored or we have felt out of place at work and it is exhausting. I think that
00:44:32
Speaker
Definitely we are going into this stage of life where black people, diverse people are creating our own spaces and feeling more like ourselves, right? Even at work and just on social media. And I love where this is going and I want us to keep it up and to grow it. In terms of where people can find me, they can find me at Adrian L. Lucas on Instagram or
00:44:59
Speaker
same Adrian L. Lucas on LinkedIn. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, look, this has been another episode of the 3D Podcast. Thanks everybody for listening. Look, you've been listening to Cedric as well as Adrian Lucas diversity and inclusion strategies for the National Association of Minority Speakers. We out.
00:45:22
Speaker
Awesome, well that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on another episode of The 3D Podcast. If you would like to connect on social media, follow me on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook, at Cedric and Powers. And if you have any questions you'd like me to read or answer on the show, or just wanna know more about my thoughts around diversity and inclusion, entrepreneurship, or just overall business, you can text, yes, I said text me, at 770-285-0404.
00:45:50
Speaker
You'll receive content straight to your phone on a regular basis, and you can message back and forth with me, not a bot or an assistant. All responses come directly from that. But look, this has been a great episode. Until next week, this has been Cedric Chambers, and you've been listening to the 3D podcast. We out.