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The Future of D,E&I and Where We Go From Here
10 Plays2 years ago
This week, for episode 19 of “The 3D Podcast” me, Cedric Chambers sits down with an awesome diversity leader, Salima Bhimani. During this interview, Salima shared her thoughts aboutThe Future of D,E&I and Where We Go From Here. This is a great episode packed with a ton of gems, so get your notepads ready as we dive deep and “Discuss the Dimensions of Diversity”.
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Transcript
Introduction to the 3D Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, I'm Cedric Chambers, and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the 3D Podcast, a masterclass where we share with you everything you need to know about how to transform diversity and inclusion in your organization as well as in your community. We're on a mission to amplify the voices of leaders that are making an impact in the world today so that we can have a better tomorrow.
Honest Conversations on Diversity & Inclusion
00:00:34
Speaker
Our goal every episode is to keep it simple, honest, and transparently by uncovering the truths in diversity and inclusion with the hope of creating behavioral change all while presenting it from a unique perspective. So look, if you're ready, get your notepad out, pour you a drink, and let's dive deep as we discuss the dimensions of diversity.
00:01:05
Speaker
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 3D Podcast where we speak to real practitioners who are making real change in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space. I'm excited for our discussion today as we are speaking to one of the most genuine souls I've probably ever met.
Introducing Dr. Salima Bimani
00:01:17
Speaker
Today, I had the privilege to speak to Dr. Salima Bimani, the chief strategist and director of equity, inclusion,
00:01:23
Speaker
and systemic change for the other bets at Google. Dr. Salima has over 23 years of experience in the public, private, international, and academic sectors. Dr. Salima currently leads, partner with, and enables the other best Alphabet's moonshot companies to achieve equity, inclusion, and increased representation through systemic transformation. So grab your tea, get your notepad ready, because we are about to dive deep as we discuss the dimensions of diversity.
00:01:52
Speaker
So Salima, how are you doing today? I'm doing fabulous. How are you? Oh, I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful. I can't complain. Or let's say I won't complain. It's hot here. I'm telling you, I'm hot.
Dr. Salima's Early Life and Career Influences
00:02:03
Speaker
It's like super, super, super hot in the Bay Area. No, it can't be. Look, it's Georgia right now. It's 90 plus. Oh, you're right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Trust me. And the wind is not blowing at all. All right. We're not even going to do a comparison then, you and I.
00:02:21
Speaker
No, it's all right. It's all right. Well, I'm excited to really dig into kind of that topic and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a second. But, you know, as I start every show, I love to just, you know, get some background as well as for the audience, you know, get to know you a little bit more and really just understand kind of your journey, your career path, because a lot of different practitioners in this space, they come to this work from different paths, different journeys.
00:02:47
Speaker
And as we're going through, I want to make sure that we highlight your background and just learn a little bit more about you. And so if we could just start there, can you just share more about your background, kind of who you are, how you got into this space, and let the audience know a little bit more about Selena. I'm happy to do that. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me, Cedric. And I love that you're doing these conversations. They're so important and so I'm honored to be here with you.
00:03:10
Speaker
So my background, depending on how we interpret background, I come from a refugee family that moved to Canada in the 1970s. And very early in life, when I was about three years old, I had my first encounter with racism. And it was very, very, very early on. And I am almost surprised I remember it. But it was an experience where my parents and I came home from being somewhere, and I was sitting in the back.
00:03:39
Speaker
At the time, I'm not sure they had real car seats to be honest with you. It was just like a bucket. We're not going to. We're not going to.
00:03:45
Speaker
It was the 1970s, anything was possible, anything was happening there. Anyway, we arrived at home and we came home to our house being blanketed in toilet paper and spray painted and it said, Packies go home. And for anybody who knows that word, Packie, it's a derogatory word for brown people and was used heavily in the 1970s and 80s as it was a racial slur, essentially.
00:04:11
Speaker
I just remember looking out the window not understanding what was going on but having this feeling like something was terrible my parents voices are really loud and i just i had the sense no no there's something wrong with us we don't belong here.
00:04:26
Speaker
And it was a feeling, right? Because I couldn't articulate it at three, but it was a feeling. And so, you know, since I've been a child, it's always, you know, and for a lot of people of color, obviously in different ways for black folks, for brown folks, for Latinx folks, you know, the realization that this world was not necessarily designed for me, you know, this world that I existed in was not necessarily meant for me. And that's the message I kept getting, right?
00:04:50
Speaker
you're a visitor here you're we're hosting you you know you better be good you better behave you better do right and so all of the all of those messages were a big part of my reality for since i was a child and that really shaped you know my own world view about.
00:05:07
Speaker
what it meant to be a woman, what it meant to be a racialized person in North American society, and what is it that we actually have to do to create a situation where I don't feel that way, where others don't feel that way, where others feel like this world is also theirs. They are also part of the, quote unquote, human race. And so that kind of set me down a path of
00:05:31
Speaker
From an educational perspective, doing all of my educational background is in racial equity and gender equity, and that's always been kind of the path for me, both globally and in North America. And then from a career perspective, I started my career in the Global South working on women's human rights from an economic and educational perspective. And I worked in the mountainous areas that are really very rural and inaccessible in most cases.
Career Path from Women's Rights to Tech Industry
00:05:59
Speaker
really working with women there to help them. Well, they were very empowered already. I was just kind of sidekick to all of the amazing work they were doing, but really working with them on how to increase economic and educational rights. And so that's where my career began. And from there, it's built off of that. I ended up in government where I was working on looking at racial profiling of Black youth within the educational system and also law enforcement.
00:06:27
Speaker
and making recommendations on how we could actually change resourcing channels within these institutions so that they were putting the money in the right places to address the right problem, because usually they didn't know what the problem was, so then the money was going in the wrong places. So I did quite a bit of that work. And then on and on I can go, but moved from sort of government, nonprofit government, ended up in the educational system, because through that work I realized
00:06:51
Speaker
Gosh, the educational system is leaving behind black and brown kids in a real way. And I had the wild idea that I could go into the education system and make a difference. And I did. I was there for some time. And then I decided that I needed to pause from all the work I'd been doing for over a decade and wanted to just take a moment. I did my PhD. And from there, I ended up in academia for a little while and then decided to start my own consulting firm, which I did, kind of taking the last sort of
00:07:18
Speaker
15, 20 years of my work and putting it together in this consulting firm. And then I realized that I started to ask myself the question, like, where is the money? Because if you think about it, like, you know, where the money is and where the power and money being just one aspect of power. But wherever the power is, is where you got to go to make the change is what I always say.
00:07:40
Speaker
You don't really try to make the change where the power isn't always because sometimes that makes sense, but sometimes it doesn't make sense because they're not the people that are influencing the big decisions that are happening, not even making the big decisions, right? So I started to ask myself that question. It became clear to me that tech was an arena that was having a huge, massive influence on people's lives, you know, whether it was like biotech or whether it was like mobility and movement, whether it was, you know, literally how knowledge gets transferred between
00:08:10
Speaker
people in communities and so I thought well then that's where I have to go because if those institutions and if tech is not thinking about this in a deep way and is not really considering what outcomes they're having on historically underrepresented groups and historically disadvantaged groups then that's a massive problem and obviously there's a lot of people who've been working in this arena for a lot longer than I have in tech I mean but I thought I could make a contribution and that's why I ended up where I am right now at Alphabet.
00:08:38
Speaker
Nice, nice, nice. And so to make sure this as you navigate it, you know, through your career and kind of, you know, up until this point now, and you've worked in different sectors. And so informing the work that you do today, like what are some of those key learnings that you got as you kind of went through that process, looking at it from different industry, different sectors, right, you know,
00:09:00
Speaker
dealing with law enforcement, dealing with education. You know, I could imagine their similarities, but I also could imagine their differences as well in those spaces. So what are some of those learnings that you kind of grab and use today from those places?
00:09:13
Speaker
I think we have to be clear about the problem we're trying to solve and the extent to which we can actually solve it. So as an example, you know, people come at this work from many different angles and in all kinds of ways. And, you know, for me has been in this industry for this work, sorry, for decades. You know, one of the big things that I asked myself is what is the change actually? And that for me is institutional and systemic change. And you know, you know, I've talked about
Need for Systemic Change vs. Surface Initiatives
00:09:38
Speaker
that a little bit before. And what that fundamentally means for me is that
00:09:42
Speaker
Whether it is the healthcare system or whether it's our economic systems or whether it is the educational system, if there are groups of people that are having inequitable outcomes and unjust and unfair outcomes, then we have a problem. And we know that this is historically true. That's not going to get solved by setting up ERGs. Sorry.
00:10:04
Speaker
I don't want to. It's not going to happen. I'm sorry to say it, right? We've historically put the burden on underrepresented folks to make change. Well, that's not working. In the sense of like having massive systemic change, we need white folks to change, right? We need the people of the power to change. And what we've done, I think, essentially is when institutions have decided to
00:10:29
Speaker
Take this work up and I think every industry is so different from each other, right? Education has a long history of taking this work up Oftentimes in ways that hasn't gotten them that far unfortunately or far enough You know law enforcement has a history. Healthcare has a history But what i'll say about all of it is that at the end of the day for me If we're not thinking about this are the things that we're doing actually leading to real outcome changes
00:10:55
Speaker
In other words, are Black folks now being paid equitably, which lead to wealth generation?
00:11:02
Speaker
which address historical wealth and equity, are people who are going through the healthcare system, in fact, now getting the kind of care that they need, so there aren't as diverse impacts on their mental and physical health ongoing and for generations. That's the work that we need to do. And this other stuff, like around setting up ERGs and doing all that, that's to appease the system. So the system can say, oh, look, we did something.
00:11:28
Speaker
But that's not the work. I mean, sure, listen, I think setting up a YouTube channel if you all want to do that, go ahead and do it because people need community and that's really important. But to think that that's actually what changes the system, I think at this point we have enough evidence that there are just some things that don't historically work.
00:11:46
Speaker
And I think that the world of equity, inclusion and diversity have to take stock of that. And the last thing I'll say about this is I think one of the fundamental problems that I find, and when I came into tech in 2017, which is not that long, I'm still a newbie around here, is that they weren't focused on equity.
00:12:03
Speaker
they were focused on diversity and inclusion and diversity basically meant a lot of people like us around the table, maybe, hopefully if we make it through, we prove ourselves enough to make it through. Inclusion is like, yeah, okay, so you're here and let's do some like steel bands and samosas for you, right? And then, but the equity piece is really about, are we fundamentally transforming our processes? Are we fundamentally transforming
00:12:27
Speaker
people's belief systems and decision-making around my career, around my experience, around what's gonna happen to me when I'm in that system. And if we're not doing that work, then I just don't think we're doing the work.
00:12:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I love what you're saying because, I mean, one, that's the reason for the show, right? When we think about the third dimension, right? It's how are we changing behaviors? How are we actually going in and creating impact? And you brought up just an aspect about the work that leaders are doing in this space and what's happening. And it always seems to start around, you know, hey, we started a BRG or we're going on a process of awareness and doing unconscious bias training and things of that nature. And so when you think about corporate,
00:13:08
Speaker
And you think about just understanding, you talked about a little bit around systemic racism. Do you feel that one, practitioners and companies really truly understand what systemic racism is and how it impacts their employees, black and brown people today and what that means for them and the things that they have to do in order to actually now start to solve for that in the corporate space?
Addressing Racial Anxiety in Organizations
00:13:36
Speaker
Racial anxiety is high, my friend, amongst people. And what that means essentially is that people are fundamentally scared of talking about race. They are fundamentally feel ill-equipped. They fundamentally have to look at something they've never had to look at. Like if you're racially blind or racially neutral, that means you basically have denied the fact that racism or race is part of your daily existence, right? Because you're not having, nobody's putting up the mirror to you and saying,
00:14:05
Speaker
Right now you can recognize yourself as a brown person and a black person. Like that doesn't happen to white folks, right? Nobody puts up a mirror and says, hey, look, now you're a white person. This doesn't happen. The world is designed for certain needs and certain groups of people. So I think fundamentally there's a lot of racial anxiety and
00:14:22
Speaker
I think that historically, it is much easier to talk about gender, it is much easier to talk about, and it's not that easy, by the way, to talk about LGBTQ issues at all, but I think relative to race, it still has had, in my experience, a lot more leeway in some instances, not all, because like trans rights, for instance, people have a very hard time talking about trans issues, but race has fundamentally been a very volatile and hard topic. And one of the things that I did when I came to Alphabet is I said, listen, like,
00:14:52
Speaker
things work for a very long time i am not interested in a like surface level job like i'm interested in fundamental systemic change with these moonshot companies that are basically start up service they're starting from the ground up right they have a way they have an opportunity to integrate into their systems right from the get go right we're not wasting time here i'm not i'm not going to set up your duties for you i'm not going to set up mentorship programs for you i want to fundamentally change the mindsets and the decisions and the actions of these leaders
00:15:20
Speaker
who lead their companies to whatever it is in the world that they end up doing. And part of that conversation was we have to center race. We just have to do it. And it's not easy. I can tell you that. But I think that I'm seeing more of an appetite for it. But I don't think people realize the kind of work they're going to have to do to get there.
00:15:43
Speaker
They're going to have to do a lot of introspection about why can't I talk about race? What is my white identity or my Asian identity or my this identity? How is how does that play into this? How am I making decisions that actually privilege one group of people over the other? And I think that people have a very hard time with that because I think fundamentally intact to there's an assumption. It's an underlying assumption, Cedric, that, you know,
00:16:08
Speaker
It's fundamentally a fair place. It's progressive. Tech is progressive. And so I think that that self-identity also sometimes gets in the way of being able to look at, but what are we not doing that we should be doing? Or what are we not doing that's having adverse impacts? Because it calls into question your self-belief, that we are inclusive, that we are equitable, that we are diverse. But the reality is we're well beyond that now. And I think people are recognizing we have a lot more work to do.
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah, with that being said, there's a lot of stuff that's happening today in society, right? Recently, you got Juneteenth becoming a national federal holiday. And then you also just have so much talk around critical race theory and just all of these things that are happening.
Challenging the Post-Racial Society Notion
00:16:53
Speaker
And so a lot of times you hear this comment that just, hey, we're in a post-racial society.
00:17:01
Speaker
And I have a comment to that, but I want to know, like, what's your thoughts on that, right? When you hear, you know, organizations, you know, talk about that, hey, we're in a post-racist society, or, you know, you start to hear people say, I don't hear, I don't see color, or you start to, you know, get around this talk of, you know, hey, we're focused on diversity of thought, and we don't look at these other aspects. And so, like, what is that when you think about and you hear that as a practitioner, like, what's your thoughts on that?
00:17:29
Speaker
I want to hear your thoughts on this, too. I think the question that I ask people is how does that belief serve you? How is it serving you? Because it's serving you. And people and people have worldviews or mental models about how the world works, right? And those are based on our life experience or based on who we've interacted with and who we haven't interacted with.
00:17:54
Speaker
It's based on, you know, how we've moved through a system, right? So like the myth of meritocracy has a huge part to play in this, right? We, especially in the United States and definitely in North America, broadly speaking, like this idea that if you work hard and you do the right thing, you get an education and you do all these things, right, that everybody should be doing, then you should make it through the system.
00:18:17
Speaker
Because that's how I got there, right? And when you don't do that, inevitably there must be something wrong with you. And what happens in that is that we also reinforce all the stereotypes about black and brown and other people about why they can't make it. Because by the way, I can make it as a man or I can make it as a white person or I can make it as somebody else who has more advantage or privilege.
00:18:38
Speaker
So, you know, part of this is like interrogating. Why do I believe that that's true? How is it servicing me? And what I would say is that it allows us to maintain the status quo. Because if you're somebody who's benefited from the system,
00:18:53
Speaker
By the way, I've benefited from the system. I'm a South Asian woman. How people read me is different than how they might read my Black sister. I benefit from the system, but I also know I hit the ceilings. I start to hit the ceilings. I start to hit all of the racism in the way that it's going to come to me, but I also benefit from it.
00:19:15
Speaker
I think part of it is like, I think people are scared that if we actually started to look at race and racism, we'd actually have to ask, how do we redistribute the benefits? How do we actually reimagine what advantage means and who has it? And I just think that people are fundamentally scared about that. And they don't want to believe that they've been part of the problem. They don't want to believe that they've actually been part of perpetuating racism. Because who wants that? Who wants to believe that about themselves?
00:19:45
Speaker
But we all contribute, like I love what Kendi says, right? We're all a part of the system. We all contribute to creating like a racist system and it's true. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to hold itself up so well. You know, there's a reason why it works so well. Yeah, right. And it's something, you know, you took the word out on the mouth and it was that word of status quo. And it's that knowing that
00:20:11
Speaker
you have to change. Look, as humans, right? Changing is hard, right? Moving in a different direction, transforming, it is hard. And when change, you know, we can all say, you know, hey, you know, I love change, you know, you know, I love how things change, but inherently we don't, right? We like for things to be consistent. We like how, you know, things stay the same. And when you think about, you know, just that question around post-racial society, I was asked the question,
00:20:37
Speaker
And I love the question that you had around, how does that benefit you? I also asked a question of post from what?
00:20:45
Speaker
Right? Because that goes into understanding of do we know the history and how we got to the place. Because we're focusing so much on the what, but we're not understanding the why. Like, why are we here today in this space? And do we understand how we got to this place? And so that's always something that, you know, you have conversations and you want people to really see
00:21:16
Speaker
an individual, you know, as well as see the community and kind of what's happened over time and what are some of those things that have contributed to maybe how society looks at it, right? I've always, you know, thought about this idea and it's really been kind of a big push over the last two years around, there's a way around how people view us, you know, as black and brown people. But then the question really comes as like, who are we to ourselves, right?
Historical Narratives and Racial Perspectives
00:21:43
Speaker
And really understanding that,
00:21:44
Speaker
When we think about post-racial, a lot of times I see that people are thinking that the start of Black people, African-Americans, brown people started at slavery. Right.
00:21:55
Speaker
And if we're thinking about that as a start, then you could say post things have gotten better, things have improved. But unless we understand that that wasn't the start, right, you know, there was a lot that happened before that, right. And we have to understand the whole picture to then understand that, oh, things might not be post-racial as I may have thought they were. There's a lot of work that needs to happen. And so, you know, just understanding, like having those discussions, it's West Africa turnarounds and COFA.
00:22:22
Speaker
Sankofa, you know, looking back to influence, you know, being able to move forward. And that's something that, you know, I think that in corporate and I look at your thoughts, I feel that we don't always want to look backwards. We don't always want to figure out when we talk about systemic racism, we don't. Yeah.
00:22:38
Speaker
Like you said, the systems are held up some way. That means that we're contributing to this system in some way that you might have not created it, but you keep it going. You keep it thriving into what it is today. And until we get to that place to where we understand that this is something that we fundamentally have to break down and rebuild, and it's something that's more equitable and something that's more inclusive for everyone, we're not going to get to the place. And as you said, BRGs are great. But at the end of the day, what change does it create
00:23:07
Speaker
in the overall system that has already been created.
00:23:11
Speaker
Yeah, and ironically, in that example that you just gave, we're asking people who have to continue to face the trauma of the system, quite frankly, to also have the burden of changing it, which is a re-traumatization of the thing that you're experiencing on a day-to-day. But your point around history is so important, because one of the things that, for me, this is from a systemic change perspective, so plus 1,000, everything you just said, is that if we actually don't have a historical view, we don't get very far. So I'm completely aligned with you on that.
00:23:40
Speaker
And one of the things that I do a lot with leaders, I have in my entire career, but definitely where I am now is for them to start to see it as a historical problem. So it's historical in the sense of, like you said, like in the context of the world, in the context of North American society in the United States, for sure. Which again, we can go back 1492, we could go back further even, right? But it's also historical in terms of our own organizations.
00:24:06
Speaker
Because the organization didn't start from the moment that you actually decided to like have, like you had a startup idea, right? And then it gets started. No, what informed, what came before that? What came before that, right? And what came before that is a history that informed you and the history that built you, right? That then informs your idea, that then informs the business, that then informs the organization. So I think for me, it's really important for people to look at,
00:24:34
Speaker
equity, inclusion, and representation from the perspective of history, that it is a historical problem that we, or historical injustice that we're actually trying to solve for, which by the way, it makes it much harder. And I'm very clear about that with people.
00:24:51
Speaker
I'm like, listen, it's not an easy problem to solve, but that is the work. And if you're interested in actually solving for history so that then we can have a different present and future, then we've got a shot at this. But if you're interested in thinking about this from the perspective of a moment in time, like some crisis happens and all of a sudden everybody wakes up and then everybody falls back asleep. This is the stuff that happens. But if you're carrying the history,
00:25:19
Speaker
It's very hard to fall asleep because you know that, right, we've got something, we've got something that has to be addressed in the before, the now, and the beyond. And I just think that unless we have that point of view, again, we're not getting very far in making change in outcomes and injustice.
Strategies for Systemic Racism in Organizations
00:25:35
Speaker
I just don't think we do.
00:25:37
Speaker
Yeah. Trauma. I read a good book, My Grandmother's Hands. It talks about, as a boy, he used to watch his grandmother's hands and feet, and he used to ask her, why are they so rough and why are they so tough? And she talked them through when she was little. She had to pick cotton when she reached in. Her hands would bleed in the beginning, but as she kept reaching in, they would callus up.
00:25:59
Speaker
And that's lived with her even after, you know, she stopped. And it talks about, you know, how trauma lives in the body of who we are, right? And what we have to do to actually go in and solve for that. And one is not an easy process, right? And it's a process to where we have to be present.
00:26:20
Speaker
in our lives and every day to really be conscious and really understand what's happening, what's going on, why am I doing the things that I'm doing? Should this be the right way I approach the situation? Should I be thinking about it this way? And so it's so much that just goes into it to where, like you said, it's not going to happen overnight. Look, it took hundreds of years to build the system that we're in today.
00:26:48
Speaker
It's going to take time to move through it. But at the same time, we have to understand that at least for the work that we do today, we have to set it up and make progress so that we can hand that baton off to the next generation. And they can take it further, ultimately, to we get to this place to where we see each other as human beings, as brothers and sisters, as a part of that society. Not necessarily you just got inserted into, but know you're a part of it. You are of this as I am.
00:27:17
Speaker
And so that becomes a, I won't say a battle, but it becomes a process that we have to work through. And so you brought up a little bit of the external piece, and I want to touch on this a little bit. With so much that's happened in society, from George Floyd to Breonna Taylor, Tatiana Jefferson, in what ways do external pressures affect the work that we're doing?
00:27:42
Speaker
How is it? Is it detracting us? Is it helping make progress? What is happening in the way which corporate companies react to it? How is that moving or not moving this work forward that we're doing?
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question, Cedric. I think your word react is the right word to interrogate a little bit here. Because I think that that's exactly the part, partially the issue, right? Is that, I mean, in some ways, like, you know, again, with George Floyd's, you know, murder and that kind of catalytic moment, there was there, you know, we saw this sort of energy, right? We saw an energy, we saw kind of like a
00:28:20
Speaker
quote-unquote awakening happening within many corporate institutions, at least on the face of it.
00:28:28
Speaker
But again, I just don't think that people are aware of what work is required. You can say, this is something that has a huge impact. This is terrible. It shouldn't happen. But George was not the first black man to be murdered by the police, or black women have been murdered by police historically. So I think the question is, well, why did you wake up right now?
00:28:51
Speaker
Like, why was it now? And then what are you going to do with that? Because if you didn't get it before, George, you probably still don't get it. But are you willing to learn? Are you willing to put in the effort and the time to figure this out? And I think this is where the tension for a lot of equity, inclusion and diversity practitioners
00:29:09
Speaker
who take up race, by the way, because not everybody does. That's where the tension is because I think what people initially kind of said, yeah, yeah, we're signed up. We're signed up to like tackle race. We're going to give $20 million towards this and we're going to like, and we're going to like start, you know, start more conversations with black and brown folks. Great. And then what?
00:29:30
Speaker
Like, have you translated that into real change for your employees? Have you translated, you know, your giving into more than just giving, right? So I think this is where the tension is because I think what a lot of practitioners, and I don't want to speak for everybody because I think everyone has maybe a fun, a different experience on some level.
00:29:48
Speaker
I think, but in my conversations with folks, where the tension is, is that we in some ways thought, oh my God, there's an opening. Wow. Now we can talk about race. Now we can actually do this work. And then all of the barriers we already knew, all of a sudden they came back up and it's like, okay. So we could talk about it for a nanosecond. Yeah.
00:30:09
Speaker
And maybe we could push the needle a little bit more than we were before, but we still got a long road to go. And I think this is why you're seeing a lot of exhaustion amongst practitioners. This is why you're seeing a lot of folks feeling very tired and very frustrated, hopeful on some level, but also frustrated on another level. And I think it's because the reality is, there's a tension. The reality is attention, right? Between what people say that they want
00:30:36
Speaker
and the work that they're gonna need to do to get there and the willingness to do that work. And I think this is where our work is, unfortunately, or fortunately as practitioners, but it can be highly frustrating for folks when they're not seeing the kind of movement that people say that they want, but are unwilling to invest in. Yeah, it's an emotional thing. And it's something to where when you're dealing with this work, you take on the,
00:31:07
Speaker
you're going into a situation that you didn't create, but you also, you're leaving with something that, you know, from that relationship, right? Whether it's good or bad out of those discussions as a practitioner and carrying that, right? And really, you know, going through that process of, you know, having the right intention, wanting to go in and have those discussions. And then you get hit with a brick wall, whether that's leadership, whether that it doesn't align with the way, you know,
00:31:31
Speaker
our financial commitments are as an organization, what we're trying to do to grow the business, all these things come into play to where then it makes it even worse like the emotion that you get because now you're trying to move something forward and do something that's going to really progress this work, but then ultimately you're getting stalled.
Long-term DE&I Strategies for Practitioners
00:31:47
Speaker
And so for practitioners that are listening, they're trying to figure out
00:31:53
Speaker
What do I do? I've been just trying, trying and trying. Is my approach wrong? I just feel like I'm not making progress. I still feel like we're dealing with the cultural issues and all of that. How should practitioners incorporate America?
00:32:10
Speaker
approach, like where should they start when it comes to whether they're having to kind of reimagine their programs internally right now or they're starting from scratch. Can you give some inputs into what should they be thinking about and where should they be starting so that we can really, really create change that's going to be impactful and that's going to last as we continue down this journey?
00:32:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think we have to accept that the change is going to be long-term. And I've said this, you know, definitely with my work at Alphabet, it's like I need you all to be set up for long-term investment and change. That is fundamental. And I think for folks that come into this work, whether they have a history of doing this work or they don't have a history of doing this work, without that point of view, it's going to be disappointing and frustrating right from the get-go.
00:32:56
Speaker
So I think that that is a fundamental thing. And I don't think that that's I don't even think that that is sort of, hey, let's just set five year goals. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that is that we have to be clear about what is the problem we're trying to solve again. Right. Am I trying to solve the fact that women don't have mentorship programs or am I trying to solve the fact that women are being treated unfairly in the outcomes that they're having and pay and performance and whatever else? Those are not those are not the same thing.
00:33:23
Speaker
So we got to get clear about what are the outcomes that we want here. And then we need to set everybody up for that long-term investment. And that is where I would say that I think one big skill for any practitioner, and I'm sure for those who've been doing this for a long time, I think this would resonate,
00:33:44
Speaker
You're a strategist. This is why it's in my title, too. Being a strategist is fundamentally important. It's knowing how to maneuver and when to maneuver. It's kind of looking at a system and saying, all right, it's kind of almost having that ninja superpower and saying, all right, this is where the force is. I got to go where the force is. Or I shouldn't go where the force is because that's just going to backfire on me. I got to go around to get to the force. It's always doing that. It's always kind of looking at and being able to see the system.
00:34:14
Speaker
how it's operating, how power flows, who has the power, who doesn't, who's cohorting with who. If I talk to this person, is that going to get me there? Or if I talk to that person, I am constantly doing that every single day. I think that that kind of strategic sense
00:34:31
Speaker
I think it's a bit more empowering because what it does is when you hit the roadblock, it's not like, oh my God, I hit the roadblock, but it's all over. Sometimes it is all over, by the way. But sometimes it's not. Maybe that's not the door you need to go through. Maybe there's another door you need to go through.
00:34:48
Speaker
Right. So it's actually about being able to be adapted and malleable as a leader in the space and being strategic as a leader in the space and then knowing that you're constantly maneuvering to get to those outcomes that we've defined. And you have to take the right people to those outcomes to achieving those outcomes. And I would say that that's why you have to start with leaders like
00:35:10
Speaker
Sometimes you can't start with leaders because it's not possible in the context of an organization. You kind of have to work your way up and that's fine. And I've had to do that in the context of my career at times. But as much as you can get closest to the power centers and start with the change there, the more you're going to have downstream impact. And that I think is so important. I spend a lot of time with leaders and a lot of time with execs and a lot of time with the people that hold the most power because quite frankly, if they're not changing and they're not making different decisions,
00:35:38
Speaker
then that is affecting everything else, right? So it's doing that work and then it's also working from the bottom up and figuring out like what is the balance of that.
00:35:47
Speaker
And where is the time, where am I spending my time and energy and resource here? And is it getting me closer again and getting them closer to those outcomes that we want? If not, let me recalibrate and try this again. And I think it's giving yourself grace around that too, because this work is exhausting, as you know. And so it allows you to, again, stay alive in this work. And at the same time, I want to just acknowledge that that's exhausting in and of itself,
00:36:13
Speaker
because you're like, oh my God, every day, you know, I'm having to maneuver all the time. But that is, I'd say that's a fundamental aspect of how this work gets done. Yeah, no, I love it. I like the strategist piece and I got another question in the second. But just even brain, like when you think about as a practitioner, and this is something that we have to get to a point to as well, is that it's hard to change a problem.
00:36:39
Speaker
when you're a part of it, when you're operating. And that's the part to where, that's where that self reflection comes in. And you have to really say, how am I contributing to this system? How am I contributing to this? Where am I doing things to where I am not demonstrating as a leader
00:36:57
Speaker
what I want the rest of the organization to demonstrate in our behaviors and the way that we operate on a day-to-day basis. And I think sometimes that is a difficult piece for a lot of leaders because we all have privilege. And when you privilege and benefit from certain systems, once again, it's difficult to change. It's difficult to then recalibrate and say that,
00:37:20
Speaker
It's possible that I may not or I probably won't get the same benefits that I've gotten or that I'm receiving now if I make this change. But we have to consciously make the change and move forward. And from a leadership perspective, you know, the direction leadership goes is directional organization goes.
00:37:37
Speaker
And so, you know, the group and the organization is looking up at the leaders and saying, we're taking the lead leader, we're taking the lead from you. So the direction that you go to direction that we go. And that's something that for leaders, right, being able to really understand how do I make sure that I set that
00:37:57
Speaker
the vision, which is what I'm going to get to now, the vision for the organization. And as you said, strategist, you know, being a strategist, you have to have vision. If we don't know where we're going, then we're a boat without a rudder. We're out with no compass. We have no GPS in the direction. And so to help the leaders really kind of bring this home that's listening,
00:38:21
Speaker
When you think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, what do you see as the vision?
Dr. Salima's Vision for Equitable Leadership
00:38:27
Speaker
for DE&I so that as folks are listening, it can give them something to grapple onto to say, I like that direction. And it gives them kind of a place to where this is where we're going. This is where we should be headed or at least pointing towards as we do that work. And so we really love to get your input on what's that vision because the strategy is ultimately getting us to whatever that vision is, right? Same way we create a vision for the organization should be the same way we create a vision for our people in DE&I. So what would you say to that?
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's a big question. One thing I would say is that I think we need to fundamentally, again, change the outcomes that people are having that historically underrepresented folks have had in the context of organizations or even the fact is that sometimes we don't even have black and brown people in our organizations to change the outcomes for.
00:39:19
Speaker
So I think that there is definitely a piece around like we need to change fundamentally the outcomes that people have Into our organizations getting in our organizations than being in our organizations But I also I also think that you know, I want to live in a world Where it is no longer a question whether a black person is qualified. Hmm
00:39:42
Speaker
I want to live in a world where black and brown folks are not worried about whether they'll be able to buy a home.
00:39:52
Speaker
I want to live in a world where seeing a black or brown or woman leader is not something to question, but to think is just normal. It's part and parcel of who we are and how we live. I want to live in a world where black, brown folks, women, LGBTQ folks, people with disabilities are actually the designers of technology that is changing our world for the good. That's what I want. And then what I do is I work myself backwards. And I say, OK, if those are the things that I want to see,
00:40:21
Speaker
then what is it going to take for us to get there? What are the steps? And who needs to be involved? How do they need to be involved? What is the work that I need to do with them to help get us there? And that's the vision I came to with Alphabet. I said, hey, you all are doing big things in the world, right? This is massive what you're doing, right? Great. That's the vision about all the pieces of the puzzle in terms of what you all do in the world, right? So I'm not going to work backwards.
00:40:50
Speaker
so that the outcomes that you have are actually not adverse. And the outcomes that you have are not re-perpetuating the same kind of reality that we live in today that is clearly not serving so many communities and so many people. And that is absolutely unacceptable to me. Yeah. I love it. That's like the second I have a dream speech right there. It is such a, I would say this, that's a conversation that more leaders need to have.
00:41:19
Speaker
And you need to have them with your leadership team to really understand what's the future of the organization and what's the vision and how does this vision connect with the people that we have, the culture that we have, all of that, which is a part of it. It's all a part of it.
00:41:39
Speaker
And we really have to understand that vision because that's going to get us to that why that's going to get us to making sure that we can grab, you know, the the heartstrings of everyone and make sure that they know this is why we need to make this change. This is a place that we're trying to go. And if we can't get there, if we can't do the work now.
00:41:56
Speaker
in order to set ourselves up. And it's about planting those seeds. I'm an avid gardener. Planting those seeds, knowing that I'm not going to have it tomorrow. It takes time. It takes nurturing the soil. It takes watering. It takes caring for it, making sure that as things come up, we redirect. We may have to care in a different way. But it's a lot of stuff that we have to do in order to make sure that we ultimately get the fruit and the harvest out of that.
Practicing Daily Equity for Systemic Change
00:42:24
Speaker
And so folks are listening, and we've talked about it. And we're coming closer to the end here. But I want to make sure that you finish listening to this episode. Now, these are like two things that you can do right now in your sphere that you can get down this path of really making change. If you had to give the listeners two, maybe three things, what would you say after this?
00:42:51
Speaker
Whether they should be thinking about something, whether they should go and have conversations doing something like what would you what advice would you give them so that they can take action now and start down that process? Equity is a practice. It's something that it's something that we have to live and do and be every single day.
00:43:09
Speaker
And it is not something that's automatic either, especially if you haven't had to practice it and you haven't had to do it, actively speaking. So I think the one thing that people should do is get into the mindset of building a practice of equity. And that means increasing your capability, your knowledge, your skills, and your sense of being.
00:43:31
Speaker
so that you are oriented towards being on the path of equity every single day and some days you're going to get it wrong and some days you're not going to know and some days you're going to be afraid but guess what that is true for all of us people of color and all of us BIPOC folks and all of us you know underrepresented folks we're scared we don't know every day you know so I think for me fundamentally if you belong to an overrepresented group
00:43:57
Speaker
I need you to get on that path and I need you to know that all those feelings that are going to come up are normal, but you need to be, you need to start confronting them because underrepresented folks don't have a choice but to confront them every single day. We got to do it every single day to survive, right? We got to do it every single day to succeed. And so building that equity practice is fundamentally important. And it's something that I do a lot of work with leaders on is building their knowledge and their skills and their capability.
00:44:25
Speaker
to have that equity practice and getting them into that space of this is not a one-off, this is not it, but if, when, this is a no, it's part and parcel of how I lead. It's part and parcel of how I lead. And to your point earlier about the vision, so then I can see how I'm going to contribute to the world that I actually want to see happen in the future, right? Because I can't do that unless I actually have the tools.
00:44:50
Speaker
So people creating those tools, giving those tools, building those tools is fundamental for us to get to that end point, whatever that end point is.
00:45:01
Speaker
No, I love it. I love it. I love it. Look, you know, we're getting closer to in here. And, you know, you talked about capabilities and orienting yourself as a leader, you know, kind of to cap off the discussion, you know, what are some of those those gems that, you know, that others can use, whether that's, you know, reading, you know, movies, content that you've seen to where they can really just continue to, you know, dig deeper into the understanding of the knowledge, you know, and really building that competency
00:45:28
Speaker
Do you have some of those go-to to some of those, you know, books or things that can help folks that they're going through and just figuring out what more can I do and where can I go to get more information? Yeah, I think on the more, what more can I do? You know, sometimes when I'm talking to different groups of people and leaders, you know, they'll say something like, but what can I actually do? And, you know, we're in the moment of like having a conversation and I'm asking them to be self-reflective and I'm asking them to self inquire.
00:45:55
Speaker
And I'm asking them to dig into themselves and really ask some hard questions. And I'm like, but you are doing something. You're doing the thing actually that I need you to do. There's all other kinds of doing too. But if you don't do this piece, we're not going to get very far. And so I think that that introspection piece, which is very individual and collective on some level,
00:46:14
Speaker
Is fundamentally important and it is a tangible thing, right? So if you are somebody who hasn't had to think about race or you know Makes the comment that we're lowering our bar by hiring diversity hires You know all of that stuff if you have got that stuff going on in your head Then I want you to pause and ask those question. Why where does that come from? Why am I holding on to it? Why do I think it's true?
00:46:36
Speaker
And so I think that that fundamental introspection is very, very important. And there is a lot of resources out there now. Yeah. A lot and a lot of resources, I think, that are great.
00:46:48
Speaker
But I definitely think like, I mean, then there's lists and I'm not gonna give you them, but I think what I want people to do is be in an active conversation with those resources as opposed to a passive conversation. I'm seeing a lot of people read things and watch things and I come back and we try to have a conversation and I'm like, did you read anything? Did you watch anything? Did you read it? Right, right. So it's not a passive activity, it's an active activity.
00:47:14
Speaker
I need people to be actively present in that and not to say, okay, I just want to learn. No, no.
00:47:19
Speaker
I wanna learn because I fundamentally want to see something change in me and in others, in my family, in my community, in my workplace. And so I'm gonna have to use up some of my social capital after I learn something in order to help make that change. And I think that that is key, right? Learn, gain the knowledge, gain the capability, but then take that back. Use your power to actually affect someone's life. And then we're gonna get somewhere. Otherwise, we're kind of are in the sort of
00:47:47
Speaker
the vicious cycle of learning constantly, because sometimes that's a scapegoat, right? The learning piece is a scapegoat to actually doing something. And I'm saying that they have to go hand in hand. Love it. I love it. I love it. Well, look, this has been an amazing conversation. Before we go, do you have any shout outs, any parting words? And where can people find you if they want to connect with you?
00:48:07
Speaker
Yeah, they can find me, I'm on LinkedIn, so please connect and yeah, send me a shout out. I love meeting new people and building communities, so that's part of something that's really important to me. I just, again, want to thank you, Cedric. You know, I think that these conversations are so important and you're creating space for an honest conversation, and I really, really, really appreciate that and have loved some stories that you've told me about your own life and that you shared with so much vulnerability and openness, so I appreciate that.
00:48:35
Speaker
No, no problem. Thanks you for joining. We have to have more of these conversations, and we have to make sure that they're honest and make sure that we are coming in with the right intent. We're learning. We're making sure that we are doing something with that power. We're being responsible with the power that we have and the spaces that we have so that we can create change, not just for ourselves, but for others around us. Because we're going to succeed or fail as a whole.
00:49:04
Speaker
There is no individualism when it comes to how a society moves forward. So definitely, thank you. Well, look, everybody, that does it for us. Thank you, everybody, for joining us on another episode of the 3D Podcast. This has been Cedric, and you've been listening to Salima Bimani, Chief Strategist and Director of Equity, Inclusion, Systemic Change, at The Other Bets, at Google.
00:49:29
Speaker
Awesome. Well, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on another episode of the 3d podcast. If you would like to connect on social media, follow me on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook at Cedric and powers. And if you have any questions you'd like me to read or answer on the show, or just want to know more about my thoughts around diversity and inclusion, entrepreneurship, or just overall business, you can text me. Yes. I said, text me.
00:49:54
Speaker
at 770-285-0404. You'll receive content straight to your phone on a regular basis, and you can message back and forth with me, not a bot or an assistant. All responses come directly from me. But look, this has been a great episode. Until next week, this has been Cedric Chambers, and you have been listening to the 3D Podcast. We out.