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One Billion Ways To Make Life Better with Brett Cooper
1.2k Plays2 months ago
*Recorded outdoors under a passionfruit vine with wind in the banana leaves*
This is one of those conversations that’ll shake you up, rattle your cage and light a fire under your butt to make change – because today’s guest reckons we need to upskill, now! It might just be the greatest pep talk in Reskillience history, from one of the most passionate permies in the movement. It’s Brett Cooper from Limestone Permaculture.
Brett, his wife Nici and fam live on Worimi Country, mid-coast NSW. Not too long ago their one acre block was just grass and hoofprints in a sleepy little rural town. Now there are over 550 fruit and nut trees, 80-140 chooks, ducks and turkeys, veggies galore, herbs, medicines, outdoor classrooms, 4.4 million litres of stored water and one legendary pizza oven. Oh, and some bangin’ community resilience.
Over three million viewers have devoured Brett + Nici’s farm tours on YouTube, pointing to more than just a fetish for gardening content but a deep yearning for the health, abundance and connection that overflows at Limestone Permaculture.
🧙♀️ LINKY POOS 🧙
Or peruse their upcoming events
Central Vic permie calendar
4 Day Residential Permaculture Retreat with David Holmgren, Beck Loew + Su Dennett ~ November 1 - 5
The Rocklyn Ashram PDC ~ Feb 2025
Good stuff we mentioned
Book: Roots Demystified ~ Robert Kourik
Book: Earth Restorer’s Guide to Permaculture ~ Rosemary Morrow (currently on sale at Permaculture Principles!)
Book: Permaculture A Designer’s Manual ~ Bill Mollison
Book: Permaculture One ~ Bill Mollison + David Holmgren
Eastern NSW
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Rascilience
00:00:03
Speaker
Hey,
00:00:08
Speaker
hey this is Katie and you're tuned into Rascilience, a podcast about the hard, soft and surprising skills that'll help us stay afloat if our modern systems don't.
Nostalgia and Personal Growth
00:00:21
Speaker
I'm writing this introduction on a train between my mum's house and my dad's house in New South Wales.
00:00:28
Speaker
And it's the same train I used to catch as a teenager, avoiding eye contact, clutching my red Discman and listening to Radiohead like my life depended on it. This sunny train carriage with its blue carpet seats and patchy passengers has me thinking about when I was a kid, what I was like as a kid, and why I am the way I am now.
Challenges of Learning and Fixed Mindset
00:00:52
Speaker
One big struggle for me, and truly there are many in life, is that I'm not so great at learning new things, which is quite ironic given that I host a podcast about skills. It's less about being a slow learner, more like an avoidance of the unknown, an aversion to being a clueless beginner.
00:01:13
Speaker
I look at people who actively add to their repertoires, taking bikes apart and putting them back together, teaching themselves how to build stuff and all of that jazz. And I'm so impressed and depressed that I'm not more like them. I think it's what they call a fixed mindset, an old and unhelpful belief that I know what I know and that's that. So how did it happen?
00:01:37
Speaker
Catching my reflection in the smeared glass of this increasingly humid train carriage, I see my younger self. A pretty regular public school student in the suburbs.
00:01:49
Speaker
What went wrong was that I was quote unquote smart and basked in the glow of gold stickers and shining report cards. But far from foreshadowing success in later life, this natural ability and the attention it attracted made me kind of lazy, fossilizing my mindset, imprinting the lesson that it's best to play to my strengths and pursue the easy wins rather than learning how to learn.
00:02:17
Speaker
It's weird to reveal this stuff on a podcast, but by now you're probably familiar with my policy of oversharing just in case any of you are experiencing similar psychic baggage and could benefit from it being publicly unpacked.
Embracing Discomfort and Growth
00:02:31
Speaker
So we all know that learning something new can make you feel like a bloody idiot. And yet there are great personal riches awaiting those who can withstand the awkwardness.
00:02:42
Speaker
So now, as an adult, I spend quite a bit of time reminding myself that discomfort is a natural part of the growth process and not something to be avoided. And as much as I blame school for my shortcomings, that old story is really getting quite stale. So if school taught some of us how not to learn, what can we do to address that, to change the story?
Primordial Mindset Concept
00:03:07
Speaker
Well, one thing I'm trying to cultivate is a primordial mindset, which is the opposite of fossilised. When the swamp of everything I don't know and can't do threatens to overwhelm me,
00:03:21
Speaker
I think of it more like that ancient goop, the primordial soup dripping with nutrients and possibility. Far from brittle and fixed, the primordial mindset is about taking small evolutionary steps in the direction of your best life, because we've all got to start somewhere.
Interview with Brett Cooper: Permaculture Insights
00:03:40
Speaker
My second suggestion is to listen to this interview with Brett Cooper. who will relieve you of any lingering mental resistance, such is his can do, will do and you can too attitude. He is truly an anti fossilizing force, a source of energy and inspiration. And I really think this might be the greatest pep talk in resilience history from one of the most passionate Permies in the movement. I am super excited to be sharing it with you. Brett, his wife, Nikki and their family live on Wurra, my country.
00:04:13
Speaker
on the mid coast of New South Wales at Limestone Permaculture. Not too long ago, their one acre block was just grass and hoof prints in a sleepy little rural village. Now there are more than 550 fruit and nut trees, dozens and dozens of chooks, ducks, and turkeys, veggies galore, herbs, medicine, wildlife, outdoor classrooms, climactic resilience, and one legendary pizza oven.
Limestone Permaculture and Community Impact
00:04:41
Speaker
Over 3 million viewers have devoured Brett and Nicky's farm tours on YouTube, which I'll link in the show notes, pointing to more than just a fetish for gardening content, but actually a deep yearning for the health, abundance and connection that limestone permaculture puts on show.
00:04:58
Speaker
I was lucky enough to record this conversation with Brett in person on a perfect spring day in the shade of a passion fruit vine with a gentle breeze rustling the banana leaves. As well as foliage, you'll hear the limestone permaculture backstory, how to create stability in your life and landscape, why adults need to urgently upskill, why not to get into debt and what to do instead, how to look after zone 00, which is the inner you,
00:05:26
Speaker
permaculture-principled homesteading, spring plantings, Brett's one resilient thing, and turkeys. You will hear turkeys in the background of this interview, and other critters too, because it's a biodiversity brouhaha in Brett and Nicky's ever-evolving patch, because they're primordial like that.
00:05:44
Speaker
If you dig what Brett's about there are so many ways you can visit or learn directly from the Lionstone Permaculture crew and I've linked all of those things in the show notes.
Community Engagement and Support
00:05:54
Speaker
Also I'm going to switch it up and shout out to all of my patrons on Patreon right now at the top of the episode because your donations and support are so very appreciated and single-handedly supporting this show. We're all enjoying each other's company over at patreon dot.com forward slash reskillience.
00:06:13
Speaker
And a massive thanks also to those who take the time to leave lovely iTunes reviews such as you, Tony, and Grubby Little Earthling. Your kind words not only help people find the show but also validate my life choices to perplexed family members. Alrighty, here's Brett Cooper from Limestone Permaculture and if you think it might inspire someone you know, go ahead and share it. Thanks for being here and enjoy the conversation.
00:06:41
Speaker
This is my first outdoor interview.
Outdoor Interview Experience
00:06:44
Speaker
Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, I don't think I've done any others. In-person's my favorite, and outdoors is the ultimate. But it's pretty hard to arrange with people. It's more El Naturale, isn't it? Very nice. Even the the wind rustling through the leaves and like that, yeah just on cue. And like you know the chickens and the turkeys and and the background, ah I mean, yeah know I love that. I mean, it's it's a little bit, I find it more relaxing than sitting in an office or, you know, Absolutely. So yeah, I want people to have the audio soundscape of this place. And it actually fits really nicely with what I mean, I want to talk to you about so many things. But one of them is where you are and what you've created here. And the fact that there may be a truck or a car or seven rushing past and it's because
00:07:31
Speaker
you're not secluded away in the sticks. You've actually chosen chosen to base yourself in and surrounded by humanity, but make the best of it and make an amazing oasis on an acre. But I don't want to give too many spoilers, but that is a big theme that's been coming up as I think about chatting with you today, Brett.
00:07:49
Speaker
Yeah, well, um I mean, look, first of all, thank you for having me on. um And secondly, yeah like to just acknowledge that we are on more and more land. um We're in the Carrillo Valley, so it's called Stroud Road, which is a little bit north of Stroud in New South Wales. um Look, the location was by design, so the idea that We needed a a a little piece of land. We didn't need much, but something that would allow us to achieve our goals, our vision, and also possibly create some side income. That was the initial thoughts. And so being a little bit closer to the populace, is not too close, but a little bit closer, um um would allow for farm gates and field days and tours and things like that. So, you know, that's that's all part of the equation really. Yeah. And so what do you get up to here? What is a a totally abnormally average day for you at Limestone Permaculture? I can give you an average week. um So, I mean, generally speaking, all the weekends are taken up with courses, workshops.
00:09:01
Speaker
tours um and and they're usually booked in advance. And the weekdays are pretty much organic in the sense that we have a certain couple of days that we devote back to the property for the maintenance, for project um for installing new projects and project maintenance. And then we're caught up with private tours, we're caught up with consultancies, we guest present for other groups.
00:09:29
Speaker
um There's always something going on. I mean, we try to schedule it as well as we can to ensure that we have at least two or three days giving back to the property. We get asked all the time, how much time does this take? And I go, well, it's all in context. But I suppose the appropriate answer is design it well and it takes less than what it would.
00:09:56
Speaker
yeah because it is only an acre and I know a lot of people aspire to many, many, many acres because the belief is that you need that quantity of land to give back to you all the things that you imagine that you need. But what is possible on an acre?
00:10:11
Speaker
Oh, I love that. I mean, seriously, what is possible in a small urban backyard? um It is so awesome to have spatial awareness as part of that permaculture lens. You know, the idea that you can be looking at ah at a an area, it could and when I say an area, it could be a dwelling, it could be a shed, it could be land, but but you're looking at it with a set of eyes that realises that with the right placement of elements and with the right type of elements and with and with elements that have good relationships and beneficial functions and connections, then the world is your oyster, anything's possible. So on the one acre, I can tell you currently where over 550 fruit and nut
00:10:59
Speaker
we average between We fluctuate between 80 and 140 poultry, depending. And those poultry range from turkey, duck, chicken, and quail. Most of it's set up for eggs, and there is obviously some involved in that, but it's obviously ethically raised. So the the one acre then you're thinking about water and energy and and thermal comfort and protection and all the other things that go with that. So yeah, the humble little one acres got 80,000 liters of water storage as what would be known in tanks and captured from roofs. But what it actually has the ability to retain in the landscape
00:11:44
Speaker
via the food forest gardens and the terrace gardens, the swale gardens, and all the other um created areas that we've now got installed in the place is is phenomenal. I mean, we did some we did some quick sums just on the water. And are generally based off, so we're we're about 4,300 square meters, a little bit over an acre. And based on 1,050 millimeters of annual rainfall,
00:12:11
Speaker
um ah From memory, I think that was something in the realms of 4.4 million litres of water that falls on this property a year.
00:12:23
Speaker
And our whole our whole goal is we know the water's eventually gonna, because we're on a slope, we know it's gonna move off the property, but our whole goal is to work it so hard that its retention is is not here for days and weeks, it's here for months. So, um you know again, when you think about what can you get from an acre, you can you can store water, you can store energy.
00:12:43
Speaker
you can you can have abundance. and And when you get to that level of abundance and and and that level of storage, um it it it just means also that you are um more pronounced in the community. you can You can offer more back. I mean, it's not all for you, but it's more for more. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful.
00:13:03
Speaker
And so speaking of any space being one's oyster, depending on how you look at it, I know that you were in Newcastle with more like a courtyard as your oyster. So what was that situation and what was the impetus to scale up just a little bit?
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, so in Newcastle we had the Urban Squeeze, which was our little name for our tiny little Mayfield property, 330 square metres with a house on it. So not much land left up there. You're pretty much talking about a lay a pathway at the front and a courtyard in the back. And we also had a rear lane access, which ended up being so useful at a later point.
00:13:42
Speaker
but the ah The initial impetus for change was based around um the the love for what we were doing, the the growth of the passion, um the yeah idea that that the whole thing, I mean permaculture itself for us ah commenced with Nikki's ailments.
00:14:06
Speaker
Right? and And so I come from a gardening family and I come from um a quarter acre scenario from when I was growing up and chickens and goats and all kinds of things so I was lucky enough to have a good upbringing with all that. Sort of forgot about it a little while and then with Nicky's early um gut-related issues, we had to make some serious change. And the initial changes were organic food and eating better and healthier. So that was the reasoning for for setting up the urban squeeze. What were you both doing at that point, work-wise? Yeah, so I was a carpenter, um doing the usual drudgery, the sludge, you know, just doing whatever it had to do to to day night and night and making it happen. Nikki was working for a real estate agent as in the admins sort of side of things and and also doing some sales. um And it was land sales too, so it wasn't house. But um her illness kept her away from work quite a bit at one point. And and and and it it did get tough there for a while. And we had change forced upon us. So, um you know what, sometimes that's what it takes. A little a little slap in the face is is good for us all sometimes. And so then that change created the urban squeeze.
00:15:24
Speaker
it it it It brought on a passion that I never knew even existed inside of both of us. um And it just swirled up and and and could not be contained. So I would say the impetus for change was the fact that we couldn't contain, we were happy where we lived, we were doing as much as we could where we lived, but we knew we could do so much more and and then realize that there was so much more to life.
00:15:49
Speaker
And so that change coming up here, we originally went looking for two acres. Back in 2010, we couldn't find it, but we found one acre and in a couple of locations. And it was it was a good time. Places were reasonably priced. um And we could get you know you could get a one acre for half the price you could buy a place in Mayfield, which was pretty cool. And all of a sudden, sudden that also meant that you could reduce your debt.
00:16:15
Speaker
and how long ago was this? this is So 2010 was the move but we started planning to move in 2008 and we started making change towards organic um nutrition and and growing around 2001, 2002 and permaculture really came into the fore by 2002, 2003. Initially just videos and just books and then and then grew and then um was uncontained at that point, yeah. So yeah, we that that change was ah was driven by by that need to not just look after my wife and my family, but also seeing that there was,
00:16:58
Speaker
there was pathways and benefits and other things. The more I explored, the more it just kept opening up. and it And even to this day, it still does. It just does not stop. Yeah, yeah. Health challenges are such an epic catalyst, I know for so many of us. And we can thank them in retrospect, but at the time, it's really bloody annoying and painful. So now coming to this property where we're sitting under the shade of, what is this plant that's trailing around here? Is it a banana passion fruit? No, so this yes so this one is a um an heirloom golden passion fruit. ah So it's seed grown. My understanding is that as of now, because I've been growing it for a certain timeframe, and from when we got the seed, maybe 38 years. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's not how old this is, of course, but that's the pass down of the seed. So it is a little bit of an heirloom one, and yeah, we love a lot of seed grown stuff here. Yeah, or you just have sensational varieties and I'd love to geek out on some of those a little bit later. But um just to kind of give the listeners a sense of the oasis that you and Nicky have created here and your family. um And also taking us back to a time when it wasn't so verdant and it wasn't so buffered by the types of plantings that you've chosen to do. What was the health of this acre when you found each other?
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was very typical of what you would expect in most rural areas. So it was one acre of grass. So you could say that when we got here, it had nice grass. um Very minimal tree and shrub. So it had two old mulberries, which are still here today. A couple of old Australian, well, they call bush lemons. They're not really Australian natives, but they're they're bush lemons. And they'd been, there was no back fence, so the cattle were in, um because it's ah it's an original homestead of a greater dairy farm at ah at one point. It's actually got quite a bit of history. um And even right down to the cob and co-carts going past. But um essentially it was but barren in the sense of um lacking complexity, lacking that 3D,
00:19:05
Speaker
and needing us to come along. yeah So yeah, we've we've been working on that for 14 years now. yeah Yeah, and I know that when we visited not that long ago and you sent us away with an overflowing box of edibles, which was just, I thought, if there's one thing that sounds like a healthy goal in life, it's to be able to welcome people and then farewell people with more than they came with, with a surplus of beautiful nutritious food that then they're taking with them and I passed some of that food on to friends and family and so your story went a really long way. But I know when and we came to visit you shared some of the stories around the kind of climactic changes that you've noticed just in this little pocket because of the things that you've done. So I wonder if you could um maybe describe a few of the things that you've noticed climate wise because you have been able to as you say add complexity to what was once just a beautiful bit of grass.
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah, look, I'll take a quick back step on that really quickly is that is that when we first got here, we didn't know, obviously, where we we researched and you can and you can definitely research the history of a region or and and understand the bioregion and all the rest of it. So, I mean, that's part of permaculture design process.
00:20:16
Speaker
So you you can learn enough, you can talk to neighbors, you can understand, but then you come through the experiences. So by 2013, we hit our first drought. By 2015 and 16, apart from normal decent rain events, we hit our first floods, which actually washed, this is the, you know, these are the floods that washed houses down through Dungog and people come close to losing their lives, here and even in Stroudy, they got rescued.
00:20:44
Speaker
So we're what this is this is um incrementally building our historical knowledge of of of the climatic and event scenarios. So then you fast forward that to 2000 and 2018 and 2019, which was the one of the worst droughts on record, if not the worst drought, and then followed by flood and flood.
00:21:07
Speaker
huge winds, so we've we've experienced 110k winds cut because we live on the shoulder ah of a hill. and It's a challenging sight. Yeah, look, it it has everything in it to to um bring about some kind of angst.
00:21:23
Speaker
Right, which I think a lot of people, this is when you when you're moving on to any form of land, and it could even happen in the urban environment, of course, but any form of land that you come across, so there's the the immediate challenges everybody talks about, usually something to do with pestilence or predators, right? But our worst,
00:21:43
Speaker
our worst um scenarios are usually climate-based, weather-based, and so then we're thinking, right, when we when we experience those, you really only want to experience them once. Now, they they happen more often than once, but this is your chance to then reflect on that that experience that's just happened and go, right, what do I need to do to filter that that effect? So you know we're thinking shelter belts and and and and where to place things so they they're not damaged as easily. so you know And where should animals go to have a comfortable life as much as what humans would? right So yeah essentially the the idea that the climatic events through this property over the last 14 years, which is a very short period in time, um has given us the understanding of what to
00:22:35
Speaker
undertake to ensure stability on your property. We now have created that stability, so now we're in a point where when those weather events now happen, so when we get strong winds, and when we get hail, and when we get really decent rainfalls, where we're holding the water where it needs to hold, and moving it where it needs to go, the winds are being buffeted and filtered.
00:22:54
Speaker
right The hail has been filtered by the the canopy. So it goes on. And then in drought and at the moment, where you know obviously the next big drought is not far around the corner. So it's going to be an interesting time to see how we were compared to back in 2019, but we are so much more advanced. So yeah, it's interesting times. Yeah. And just practically and more specifically, what are some of those um Design strategies or interventions that you've made like the types of plantings along the road for instance Yeah, so so shoulder belts are first and foremost when you when you think about well, I could take a step back and say understanding the scale of permanence Right. So the scale of permanence is by PA Yeoman um You know, we're talking about something that's
00:23:36
Speaker
a good 50 years, maybe a bit longer, um that's been ah it's been rent so it's Australian, and he came up with the idea of what you should look at and understand in the sense of influences and energies and topographies and climates and all that kind of thing when you first walk on the land. And he put them in a sort of ah ah a hierarchy, a type of order to look at them, which was really clever because nobody was doing that. p yeoman PA Yeoman, who invented the Yeoman's Plow, right? Who did who was ah did a lot of and had a lot of inventions. But the scale of permanence is one of the things that Bill Mollison first met PA Yeoman about. So um he he took that, that scale of permanence is in permaculture design. Crucial, crucial. So the idea that when you come onto a property, the things that yeah that we need to,
00:24:24
Speaker
um be considering for our property are based off that. So if you think just quickly on the scale of permanence, if you think of um ah Dan Palmer, relate it the best, right? And I was lucky enough to learn under Dan Palmer, amazing man um for advanced design. And he said,
00:24:44
Speaker
Basically, scale of permanence, you're starting with climate, and that is the rules of the game. Topography is the board the game's played on, and then water and infrastructure and um you know subdivision and soil and plants and animals are all the pieces on the board. But most importantly, climate, topography. But first up, directly under them, as soon as you move to the first piece, and I would call it the king on the board, is water.
00:25:13
Speaker
And then you think about stability, so the idea that um the parts that you truly need to consider when you come into into property to help you with event mitigation, so designing for extreme events, are things like shelter belts, so and those shelter belts can be anything in the context of where you live. If it's narrow, it can be bamboo. If you've got white, you can be it can be rows and and leading up to a ramped effect that send the wind wind over and over the top. um It can be the idea that you're retaining water and moving water on the property to
00:25:47
Speaker
keep it ah hydrated and and and give you a prolonged resilience in drought. So it's all about creating, the the correct word is stability. It's all about creating the correct still bit stability using permaculture design process and the scale of permanence. You work with those two guidances, if you like, then then you are well on your way to being able to ah handle the next lot of events that get thrown at you. Yeah, cool. Scale of permanence. i know that um These things come in and out of my awareness, but every time I hear them, it refreshes my appreciation for how sophisticated and helpful that is. But I wonder if I can take a step, a few steps back and ask you where you meet people when, and I think this is a bit of a generational thing, people like me and my cohort, we don't know which direction the wind is coming from. We don't have those like basic geographic observational in touch with, um you know, the elemental forces in our,
00:26:46
Speaker
in our context, I don't think that's as common as, you know, my mum's generation and the generation before that. It seems to me more natural for someone like in my mum's generation to say, oh, here's a southwesterly coming through or whatever. And so it's like, okay, with these design principles and pathways, you kind of got to know this really basic logic of the universe first. Where do you start with with people like us?
00:27:11
Speaker
Well, we're really lucky because we're currently, we're in a a wealth of knowledge. There is some stuff that we need to watch and be careful of and obviously and things need to be checked and compared. But as far as understanding climate and weather, the the the information's out there. Down to the point where in all honesty, if you've got a compass on your phone,
00:27:36
Speaker
you're able to at the very least know we where's north, where's south and where's east, where's west. If you're standing there and there's a wind blowing, you can work at which direction it is. We have all the weather apps and and and weather websites and that that you can get historical data from. You can Google old newspaper clippings and and from from big events. So the information, so when we run our PDC courses, we're're we're saying it's okay, you don't need to be the one that knows straight off. But here's some tools.
00:28:06
Speaker
you will learn this very quickly and then you will take the time that when something, all of a sudden the wind changes, you'll go, oh, oh, that just changed. And if you're not sure what direction you'll pull your phone at, you'll get your compass and you'll find what that direction is, right? So so we're lucky that now that, yeah, you're you're right. The reason why the older generation, so if you went from say Gen X back to boomers back to, and you kept going further back, that generation didn't have the luxury of of social media and apps and on all the websites. So it was something that was taught down. It was intergenerational.
00:28:41
Speaker
these days, we we have that knowledge passed onto us via the digital world. And to be honest with you, like all tools, they can be good and bad. you know And so you know it's how we use them. And there's so much, I actually, you know i am I am Gen X and you know and and I'm um um absolutely i' excited to see all the technology that is available for understanding your land, understanding the climate, understanding your horticultural responsibilities, understanding your animal-based responsibilities, it's all there. So I can tell you now that you can get anything you need within within the click of a button these days, but to extend then it's your job to experience it. Okay, yeah, because my my question is, only knowing you from the last time we were here, you spoke so,
00:29:37
Speaker
passionately about resilience. And I think that this how we use technology and how much technology can mediate our experience to the point of us not actually experiencing anything anymore. Like what is your recommendation as someone who is so emphatically um devoted to cultivating, I was going to say, resillience, like I've coined that or something, resilience for yourself and your community. like Yes, these tools are incredible, but what if? What if we don't have access to them anymore? Do you have a bookshelf full of these things? Do you want an oral culture resurgence where we actually have them you know in our bones and in the landscape? Well, you're talking about one of the main principles of permaculture, which is redundancy. What's your backup plan? yeah So your backup plan for everything. So ah the idea that, well, if you don't have a digital compass, you could have a standard magnetic compass. so um The idea that if, so thinking about, and and and I do get this a lot, there's always the what ifs.
00:30:36
Speaker
what I would say is while it's not a what-if, while at the moment it is available, use it, learn and understand to a point where you may not need to use it, right? That's one of the big things I try to teach is that if it's available, utilise it. When it's not available, what is what is the other ways? So yes, books,
00:30:55
Speaker
um Obviously books, books, you know, um we have multiple libraries on limestone. We have our own personal library. We have two libraries in the classroom, which ah which have loan out books for all our students. So when they do their course, because our course runs fortnightly, you're allowed to take a book for two weeks or a couple of books. And as long as you sign your name, bring it back and let other students use them. So we absolutely promote reading, love reading, grew up reading.
00:31:23
Speaker
um The idea that there's also some tricks, understanding how to work with the sun and the moon. And and and some of these things are quite simple. um you know Something as simple as putting a stick in the ground and you know understanding where the sun comes up and the sun comes down. and mar so So the answer is yes, there is availability of the knowledge because the knowledge was there before the digital came along. So it's all there for us as well. I'm just saying at the moment, it had the the tools are there to fast track.
00:31:52
Speaker
but but then don't rely on it. So utilize it to upskill fast. So fast track your knowledge. And that's one of the things we talk about in the courses. I'm very big on fast tracking adults. as much I love kids, but umm um I feel that there is ah a little bit of an urgency to fast track adults and let the adults teach the kids because it's meant to be in a generation of knowledge anyway, right? So that's, you know, so I just went a little bit round in circles then, but yeah, you know what I mean. It's so good. And you know what Brett said to me before the interview, not feeling so great today and you're so energetic and so lucid. I love it. And I really want to dig into this urgency thing because as you may or may not know, when I started the podcast, it was theoretically around
00:32:37
Speaker
Oh shit, you know, civilization's collapsing. What do we do in this 11th hour? And now I feel like actually the heart and soul of my inquiry is how do we live at the 11th hour? Because it's always the 11th hour. You know, we never know when we're going to go, but collectively we're having a big 11th hour moment. And so for you to bring urgency into the conversation is gold because I'm deeply interested in that idea, how we kind of live slow and present lives with this prevailing sense of you know, urgency, emergency. What is the score? Like in your mind, how much time do we have to lean on technologies and kind of play around and skill up? Like, you know, you can be as specific as you like. What do you think we're in for? Okay, so a little step back again. Hey, I'm just going to shuffle up my chair as well. Yeah, you're right.
00:33:31
Speaker
so I studied history at school up until the point I left to be a carpenter and a tradesman, which was the the ripe old age of 16. But I did four years of history. And one of the things that always interests me was um social,
00:33:49
Speaker
social upheaval. and which was mostly based around war, really. And what I could say to you right now, I have people, you can imagine coming to the courses because I'm very solutions based. So I get a lot of people coming in and go, oh, okay, what do you think? You know, where are we going? What's gonna happen? I go, well, listen, if you're talking about being into a golden time, the last 50 odd years has been pretty damn good, maybe a bit longer. You could have been born in Poland during 1939, 1940, and it would have been devastating.
00:34:21
Speaker
yeah Right? Right at the start of the war. So there's been a lot worse times than we're living right now, but the earth has never lived in a worse time. So people have lived in worse times. The poor old earth's the problem, right? So I don't know what what that means. I don't know what the trigger, the tipping point is. So for me,
00:34:51
Speaker
What I'm always gonna do is be the person that is always talking up how you can have the best life. And I'm always gonna be the person to show you how you can do that now. And whatever happens is going to happen. Build resilience in the best you can. right nothing Nothing that we can teach you is going to save you from some cat of cataclysm. right But let's just say there's just um harsh tweaks for the human civilization. Well then, yeah, we we may be able to ride out some of this this stuff. And and and you know that that can be anything from, of course, the first and forefront, which would be the climatic stuff. And again, Mother Nature knows how to really slap us in the face if she wants. And at the moment, she's been very kind.
00:35:43
Speaker
right No matter what everybody's saying, she's been very kind. If she decides that she wants to make it make things very tough for us, well then we'll certainly know about that. So what I would say to everybody at the moment is, live your very best life because first of all you should respect it, then you should be grateful for the damn thing.
00:36:06
Speaker
um you know to be on this planet and be able to sit down in a time in in time where nobody's bombing us, nobody's, we have the ability to move about and we have relative freedom. And there's a lot of bad things going on in the world and there's a lot of, and and without getting in into politics, of course, I absolutely hate it um because there is nothing good about it.
00:36:30
Speaker
um the then we are still in a good time to make good change. And don't worry about tipping points, don't worry about um how rushed you need to be. All you need to know is there should be an urgency for your life to be better. that's that That would be my um more go-to thing that to to let out the people would be,
00:36:53
Speaker
what What are you waiting for? right you know Why are you sitting there and going, well, I'm watching these videos, I wanna be it, I haven't got enough money. Well, there's a lot of people that don't have enough money. right and And if you're living in an apartment, there's change you can make. If you're living in a tiny little dwelling in the in the urban zone, there's changes you can make. There's things that you can do that'll put a smile on your face and sometimes it's as simple as walking out onto that veranda and seeing cherry tomatoes and some fresh basil and some chives and you go,
00:37:22
Speaker
bruschetta, here I come. If you're coming to me, I'm all about solutions. I am definitely not the doom and gloomist. I want to do the very best for myself, my family, my friends, my community, and anybody that makes a connection with us.
00:37:38
Speaker
I hope that answers your question. Yeah, just a bit. Above and beyond. Yeah, thank you. Great answer. Yeah, I'm thinking about that that highlighting of the good life and the good feelings and the true wealth that we can experience that isn't the unexamined pursuit of profit at all costs, which is turning the world into paperclips or whatever it is. um What would you say we can supplant that unexamined pursuit of profit with. Like, what are some of the things that make you feel so rich? Oh, this life. Oh, well, that's that's that's the whole, that's permaculture in in a nutshell is, and I know I keep coming back to the almighty word of permaculture, but it is almighty. Like, it's incredible, right? You talk about the ultimate gospel.
00:38:32
Speaker
I know I am sorry that it's not a cult, but look you're talking about permaculture designing your life, helping you to design your life, and really all it's really doing is making us remember of what once was. So there was once a time in in in various cultures around the world. And I mean all cultures, there was once a time where those cultures would have been a little bit more in touch with nature. They would have had, you know, there would be no such thing as a nine to five job. There would be notice so no such thing as a full blown mortgage, right? And the worry of, you know, if there's gonna be fuel for my car next week. Yes, they've always worked hard, oh my God.
00:39:14
Speaker
you probably worked harder. But I tell you what, and you probably lived a shorter life. But I dare say, as long as you weren't in some of those inner city environments, back in the 1560s, if you're living out on the farmland, you would work hard, but you would have a life that was connected. And I think that's the that's the price we pay.
00:39:36
Speaker
I think with chasing the almighty dollar is that we've lost touch with that. We've lost connection with that. And and and look, we all get caught up. I mean, you know,
00:39:50
Speaker
i che I think it it it sounds harsh when we say chase your multi-dollar and we're and look, there's a lot of us doing it and I did it. um It's because we wanted a house of our own. It's because we wanted a car. We wanted to be able to take our family somewhere. I get it, I get it, I totally get it. It's just that now I realize that maybe I didn't need all that.
00:40:11
Speaker
you know and and then ah ah you spend the the the next, you know you might have spent the first 30 or 40 years trying to get to that point, realizing that you're not quite there anyway, and then you spend the next 30 or 40 reducing that and going, well, okay, how can I you know get back to it? And look, for anybody listening, guys, um you know I still have a mortgage to this day. i mean ah But these days, we only we we just pay what we need to pay, and we re any extra money, we reinvest back into the fund. That's how important it is to us.
00:40:40
Speaker
um We realize that at any time, if things weren't really pear-shaped, we could lose our property. but But stressing and paying double and trying to rake that back in won't change what would happen in a short timeframe. So for us, we want to enjoy what we want now. So if it means buying, um yeah spending a little bit more money on an advanced fruit fruit tree, rather than paying a little bit more off a mortgage, we do that.
00:41:03
Speaker
um that's That's our choice, that's the way we wanna live. um We wanna be able to, see we want all the sensory, we wanna be able to see, smell, taste, all the good stuff, all the green stuff, right? So, yeah, that's the richness. um But sadly, we do live in a world where we still need to make some dollars. And and look, if I didn't, I wouldn't be even charging for our courses. And you know, Nicky and I talk about it all the time. There will come a time where we think that if we own our place and we're at a stage where we you know we don't need to pay these things off, you know and we own everything, the only thing we own is our house, um then we would like to then give back and continue teaching and educating at no cost. At the moment, we try to do things on the side, we do things for our community, we give things away for, for you know we're we're constantly doing that, but there is also that,
00:41:55
Speaker
that little evilness on the shoulder getting there and saying, well, okay, you've still got to pay this next week, right? So, yeah. But you were relatively subversive in the choice to move to this little place that I remember I lived down the road as a kid, and we would come through Stroud Road and Stroud to get to the city or the beach or wherever we were going.
00:42:14
Speaker
And honestly, Gloucester, where I grew up, nothing to write home about, but we'd come through here and we're like, who would live here? like it was It's little, it's it's country, there's not much happening, but you you saw something here and you made that lateral kind of decision that meant you weren't in way, way, way over your head in debt. like you I imagine, I think, stayed somewhat within your means. You haven't like burdened yourself, shackled yourself with a massive amount of debt that can really set you up then to be in the hamster wheel totally? Well it's a good question because to be honest part of the part of the move was about debt reduction part of the move was about building resilience so so if you think that here we are coming up to do all these fabulous things in the background we sold a house that ah I'm ah um' a builder I'm a carpenter joiner
00:43:04
Speaker
I was never anything big in Newcastle, I was just a carbon enjoyment, but um we sold a place that we worked really hard on, it was a beautiful little place in Mayfield, and and we did get, back and back in that day, we get did get a good dollar for what it was, and it enabled us to pay off um the fair whack of our debt and have enough deposit left over to get this little place. And I'll tell you upfront, I mean, it was $260,000, right? And that's only 2010. Like it scares me to know what this is now. for for you know I've got ah i' go a 28-year-old son and a 17-year-old daughter about to turn 18.
00:43:45
Speaker
and that probably leads me to something else. And and maybe it will help with with some of the ways we're thinking at the moment is that's also led me to think about what have I got to do for my children now who will not be able to afford even that. So yes, we did it, we had a whole reductionist mentality moving up. That was all part of, we planned this for two years. We knew we had hardly any coin. I mean, our deposit was just enough. I mean, literally with down to the last thousand dollars, enough to get this place, all right? So it was so tense and scary a time, you know, whether we would be accepted. And so now I look back and I go, well, I don't want my kids to get through it. I've taught my kids to treat credit cards as evil.
00:44:35
Speaker
right In the 90s, they'll give them away in Kellogg's packets. And I've taught my kids to treat them as evil and and also that, okay, let's just see what we can do as a family rather than you guys go, go make yourself out in the world. That's that's been the last 40, 50s. That's been a typical, it's very much an Australian thing and and probably an American thing where you go, right, son and daughter, <unk> you know we've brought you up to a certain level now. Go out there and do your thing in the world where maybe We should have been thinking, well, if we collaborate and if we stay together and work as a family, maybe we can achieve something a whole lot easier. We can reduce the the um at the angst and the issues that we've had as parents for you kids, but still getting you guys to work
00:45:26
Speaker
towards a goal. And so now what we're set up, even on one acre, we have the ability to house both our kids with their partners, whenever they've got, the partner my son has, my daughter hasn't, if they've got partners, we have the ability to house them. So we have multifunctional dwellings that are working towards the education which we can revert, right?
00:45:46
Speaker
So this is all part of redundancy. It's all part of the backup plan. And so then at a later point, if by some lucky chance we're able to pay our place off and maybe get another acre or half an acre, or a quarter of an acre, um you know, then then we would only be thinking about how we could continue to retain our children. And then who else could we help? Is there friends? Is there family? Is there other young people that want to work on our farm that we'd want to have around us? Because then we're starting to talk about succession planning.
00:46:15
Speaker
as we get older, having young people around us have an intergeneration passing intergenerational knowledge and having intergenerational assistance. Next crop. So what's the what are the challenges in that, say, pulling ourselves away from that dream of forging our own path and carving out our own niche and leaving some kind of and individuated legacy? like How do we go from that to pitching in on this thing that mum and dad have created, but still feeling a sense of sovereignty and agency and real true commitment to this thing that you and Nicky have made, but you've invited your kids to be a part of. So where where are the challenges there and what's the kind of belief shift?
00:46:55
Speaker
Yeah, so I would first answer that by saying that ah whilst we've got fantastic parents and families behind us, um neither one of our parents ever were land-based or thought along these lines, which is fine. ah So it had to start somewhere and it started with us in our situation. Also, we were understanding more about that financial scenario.
00:47:21
Speaker
so um So please understand, noting that, please understand that you may be the first of your family to start this. You are pioneering something. Right, yeah. So you could be the pioneer, and if you are, then how do you, first of all, how do you go about that if you haven't got the finances? so then It could be, and I'm hearing some really interesting things because there's a lot of elderly landowners and farmers, not just farmers, but property owners and that that are becoming more open to the idea of having their land worked and having young people ah around them and meaning that they're not going off to homes.
00:47:58
Speaker
and they're not having to reduce to something smaller. So first and foremost, opportunity will arise. It is coming. the All these generations, the boomers are already there. Generation X is not far behind. This is all happening. So what I would first say to all the other generations is get knowledge, get skilled up, be on point, and be ready. but Right? Because it's it is coming. It is coming. yeah yeah You've got to appreciate that if we take in the understanding of also that al our care, our medical realms of of of how we're cared for may get a little bit tougher as time goes on. We're already seeing little cracks here and there. So again,
00:48:48
Speaker
the these people that have leaned and then these boomers Gen X and that that have leaned, they're gonna be more open to this because they're not gonna have a hell of a lot of choice. right So here's the chance for it all to swing around. So first and foremost, don't be the person that gets there and goes, well, pick me, pick me, or why not me? Be the person that puts himself out in front by first being skilled up. Do as much as you can now. While you don't have land, get skilled. While you don't have land,
00:49:21
Speaker
build your knowledge, build your your ability to analyse and consider and and and learn how to observe with all sensors.
00:49:32
Speaker
right so So be that person, and I would say first and foremost, and I know this is we haven't really answered your full question, but first and foremost, this brings potential, this brings opportunity. right Then, if you are lucky enough to get on there, then what we're also hearing and seeing, and in and it's starting to come up in in conversation, is that lean, instead of it being shared out to family like it was, it's actually being left to these people to steward.
00:50:01
Speaker
under the ownership of somebody else. And they can, you know, there's obviously legalities behind all that. But it is interesting to see how some of these things are changing. yeah And then also obviously share farming and community based living and all that kind of thing is is part of it. But the ah idea that you've got to start somewhere. So if you don't have the money,
00:50:22
Speaker
don't don't go into debt, don't give yourself that angst and and that shackles and move into knowledge and ah the smart pathways in amongst those opportunities. And then if you do have a little bit of coin or if there's a little bit of family money coming that way, or you can coerce,
00:50:42
Speaker
existing family to go, hey, you know, if you sold your place out of the city there and you bought that two acres up here, we could live with you, we could help look after you, right? We could look after land, hey, we could grow some fresh veg for you. You could have fresh tomatoes, how good would that be? So, you know, there's this, there's I just, I see a world of opportunity. What you're saying is spot on and I'm seeing that too. It's just a, it's a leap for people who want that, I don't know, like some kind of security that, you isn't actually as secure as we think it is.
00:51:14
Speaker
none None of it ever is, none everything I've got, nothing's truly secure. So, okay, take that knowledge in, push it to the side, stick it on a shelf, right? And and go, all right, um that's there, it's always gonna be there, what am I gonna do? Keep keep rolling on. You keep it as a consideration, you keep an understanding of what it takes to keep it on that shelf and not affect you, but do you move on with your life, right? So the idea, of so the likes of you and enjoy it, you put yourselves out to the universe, right?
00:51:43
Speaker
Everything that we're doing, even right now, means that your you're like this incredible ah comet going through the the universe, and as long as you keep moving, you're gonna bump into something, right? Or you're gonna pass something, right? But if you're stagnant, if you're in one like spot, you're relying on something bumping into you, and the chances are way slimmer, right? So,
00:52:09
Speaker
I'm very big about putting yourself out to the universe, spreading yourself far and wide. like as long as it's not detrimental to your health, but but getting out there, creating amazing networks, meeting amazing people, and and then it's funny, those little opportunities just keep popping up, and and and you know you start to look back at this, and you go, oh wow, you know it may have been may have been two opportunities in 2010, it may have been 20 by 2015, and then it's 200 by 2020. It just keeps building momentum like ah a boulder rolling down a hill.
00:52:44
Speaker
right So ah um I think that again, that's why I say, the idea of upskilling and knowledge, here we are talking about you as an individual. right So the idea that you've learned something, oh right, so now you're more knowledgeable about something, you've learned a skill so you've become more experienced about something, but at the same time you were doing it with people.
00:53:04
Speaker
So all of a sudden you've met you've met Joe blogs and everybody else in the in the class. You've met course instructors and your and and you've been put out there.
00:53:16
Speaker
to take all this information back in that's not just you but it's from the from all these all these other comets are and all these other planets and and and all these stars and all these other things around you are all sending information your way. So what it means is at some point, right, it could be that somebody you met in your class says, oh by the way, I've got 120 acres and we're looking to set ourselves up on five, do you wanna come and live on five?
00:53:43
Speaker
right How do you know unless you do it? This is the constellation of benefits that come from something you think you're doing, taking a permaculture design certificate, what have you. There's actually all of these subsidiary benefits and this is great because I'm going to release this really soon so I know that it'll still be relevant to say this. um There's a couple of PDCs coming up out our way and one of them actually isn't a PDC, it's a retreat. And it's kind of like going camping with David Holmgren and Beck Lowe. It's e'ology freaking amazing. I'm trying to write about this and in our comms and our news that are really saying the connections that you make and the conversations you have around that fire are going to be the things that but are with you for life, not just the theory that you hear from Dave and Beck and Sue. It'll be like all of these unexpected little shoots that are coming up you know for the rest of your life because of those relationships that you forged in the four days.
00:54:35
Speaker
swimming and camping and fire chatting with 20 other people who are just like you and wanting the same things and it's really hard to sum that up but I want to give a plug for that retreat because it's just such a nice event in spring but also Brett really acknowledge what you're saying like every time you put yourself in the way of these things or you put yourself out there I'm thinking of like the dandelion clock the seed head and just blowing all of those into the wind and beautiful healing dandelion putting its taproot down and just kind of incrementally in bettering the landscape, it's like, you can do that. yeah like and And David, can I just make mention? um So I did the advanced design with David Hoggram and Dan Palmer. yeah And just noting on touching on what we were just talking about then with being in amongst other people while learning, um what I found with David was one of the best times of the course, apart from getting amazing knowledge,
00:55:29
Speaker
was the night when we were sitting around that I was sitting around the side having a curry at Dave and da Sue's and the rest of the class were down over near a fire and it was just myself and another chap and we were just having a little yarn and I think David was looking for a break and he's come around the side of his property there and he sat down between us and and um and one of the best conversations for an hour just while we ate. And so here I was down there for a five day advanced design course.
00:55:54
Speaker
but the conversation inside that one hour was incredible. I mean, everything from ethical hunting through to too much fruit, sugar, for tea you know, all kinds, it was just, it was it was just amazing. and And they're the things that really, that really stick, you know? And it's like I had another, I had one like that with Dan Palmer and um yeah, look, so what I would say is, is that you go,
00:56:14
Speaker
um You go for the main meal, but it's the dessert you're gonna really remember, right? So um that's that for me is is a winner. Exactly what you just said is is a winner for me. So put yourself out there, be the dandelion, spread yourself, um spread spread parts of you. So the core you has to look after you and has to look after your family. Oh, and I might should make mention, um one of the most amazing moments in my life. I was at a markets that I was i was the chairman of the Australian markets for a little while and um I had a lovely old lady who I'd never met and I was wearing ah i was wearing a fluoro vest and I'm organizing everybody, I'm busy, I'm very busy, right? And she'd come up and all I felt was this little hand grab me on the arm and she was, um you know, she must have been well within her 80s or 90s, who knows?
00:57:03
Speaker
um But she grabbed my arm, and I looked at her and said, yes, I said, can I help you? And she looked up and she said she said, if you don't take the time to help yourself, you won't be able to help others. And then she walked away. Was she real? Yeah, so I've i've gone, oh ah oh crap, like I'm just, because ah you know I come from a family, my mum's a white witch, right?
00:57:25
Speaker
So, and and so essentially I've gone, oh, oh, and I've turned, and Nicky's back over at the store with my son manning our stall, and I've read my cover, I said, did you just say it? And Nicky goes, oh, I think I saw that old lady just stop that, I go, who's that? And I said, she's just telling me. And it was funny, because at the time, we were actually going through some pretty heavy stuff with,
00:57:45
Speaker
all kinds of things, finance and committees and all kinds of things going on. And she'd actually hit the nail on the head and it was like being slapped in the face. And seriously, it was that point that pivoted me to get there and go, I need to look after, in permaculture, the zone zero zero, the inner you, right? So it was, that was that moment I went, okay, I'm giving too much out. I need to pull back, build strength, become stronger to give more.
00:58:14
Speaker
and And so, yeah, you you that that was a key moment. I just had to share that, sorry. Yeah, no, I experienced these little Yodas who materialise very occasionally and just say something completely profound and then disappear in a puff of smoke. It was bizarre. Yeah. Truly bizarre. Thanks for sharing that. Just quickly, Brett, on what you were talking about with upskilling and being poised to really meet this this big burgeoning kind of boomer generational opportunity and collaboration that is going to be here quite soon.
00:58:43
Speaker
if not already, um you mentioned those skills that we can be honing. Specifically, what would you what would you suggest are the top skills? Well, you know that I'm gonna say number one, first and foremost, is you need to understand um the land that you're gonna be eventually connected with.
00:59:01
Speaker
right so where can that come from where can guidance come from permaculture right of course i'm going to say that uh but then i'm going to offer a whole lot of other skills that can be included in some permaculture courses but not all permaculture courses so project management right being Being able to organize, prioritize, project manage the things that you've just designed. So many a person goes away with a beautiful design, but then
00:59:32
Speaker
Maybe maybe and I'm only saying maybe some people may lack that Decision making for what should come first and so so we incorporate that in our PDCs these days They're involved in our so now next one next year is even bigger So the next thing I'm gonna offer is part of our course for next year. I know it's a bit of a plug yeah No, it's look, it's only because we're so passionate about it. um So next year, our PDC is evolving. It's been evolving for years, right? So original PDC I did all those years ago was a 13-day PDC. So it was a 12-day PDC with a one-day break in the middle of it, which is a fairly typical Bill Morrison PDC. Absolutely brilliant, loved it, right? Learn a couple of things from that. One was I struggled, me personally, I struggled to absorb. So I decided to,
01:00:22
Speaker
Expand that course and we trialled it in all different ways and went through we went through some failure So we tried going six months and this one and all trying all kinds of things We settled back about five years ago. We settled back on fortnightly Courses so we and it was back then it was six six weekends twelve days over basically Nearly three months right these days we run seven fortnightly weekends, and that works out to be 14 day course. Next year, it's moving into a 16 day course, and I know that might sound a little bit big for some people, but again, it's fortnightly, it's designed for busy people.
01:01:01
Speaker
um it's had it you know The course itself's gonna have eight special i specialist guest teachers and three lead teachers, so this is massive, right? But the big thing about this course is it's now called the PDCHC,
01:01:17
Speaker
Ooh, you've added letters. Yes, we've added letters. The importance of more letters. so Hot chips. Is that what it stands for? It sounds like that. and It should be hot chips. So it's the Permaculture Design Certificate homesteading course. Oh yeah, nice. So what we've done is we've fine-tuned the PDC to fast-track adults, and then we've incorporated, integrated,
01:01:40
Speaker
um the homesteading aspects of it, but but more so the design and management aspects of the homesteading. right So it's one thing to get there and go, I'm gonna ferment. I'm going to, um I'm going to can. Brilliant, lovely stuff, awesome. right But it's another thing to actually know how to manage the kitchen, manage the pantry. um What equipment do you need? And then what about your sheds? What about all the equipment? What about processing for veg and maybe animals for those that eat meat? So so we're bringing all that into the game.
01:02:17
Speaker
we will not be doing animal processing in our course because we like our course to be open to um you know omnivores, vegetarians and and vegans and every dietary right across the board. So obviously we know that puts something off, but the understanding of the management's important. Then we are gonna run extension weekends afterwards for those that are interested and that could be like poultry post-it processing and other other things that you know other people may not be so attuned to. So um the homesteading side of things is probably one of the big things for people to learn.
01:02:52
Speaker
sha You know, we we hear about it all the time because it's been around in America and whatnot for ever and a day, but we call it permaculture principled homesteading. Let's be very clear, it is not about being in a bunker and having powdered everything, right? Your best storage is in the ground. So, you know, the idea that you've got sweet potato and potato and taro and arrowroot and everything else that you need in the ground when you need it.
01:03:17
Speaker
right That's your best storage. So, learning the skills to first and foremost connect with your land, and that's what permaculture will give you, connect with people properly, connect with community, um build living living systems, build and have ah and and build into ah a living design infrastructure, so everything's designed to make your life better, and let's be very clear what regenerative means.
01:03:44
Speaker
Regenerative means better. So when you hear about regenerative farming or regenerative gardening or having a regenerative life, you're really making a better life, a better farm and a better garden, right? So then how do we do that? Well, we use permaculture to do that, right? So permaculture, homesteading, if you're a farmer, holistic farm management,
01:04:05
Speaker
Brian Welberg, there's a plug, he's an awesome teacher, legend. There is amazing courses, and and look, if you can't afford everything, check out for payment plans, or even we run we run payment plans, or bartering system, do you wanna come and work your course off?
01:04:23
Speaker
um Is there you can't get the courses or can you read books? Can you can you Google the right kind of videos? That's another point when you're looking for information It's one thing to type in homesteading, but it's another thing to type in permaculture principal homesteading What comes up? Does anything? Have you started putting stuff out under that banner? We come up to. I'll have to have a cheeky little look. But yeah, you will. So what you'll get is there's plenty of permaculturists that are homesteaders. And sometimes there's permaculturists that are homesteading that don't even call themselves that, but they are.
01:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, so it's it's its homesteading is ah is is a a resilience on the homestead. And by the way, it can be urban or rural, right? Or a mixture of both. there is There's no defining land size as to a homestead. So part of your homesteading could happen in an apartment. If you use your pantry, if you use your kitchen, if you use your laundry tub, there are there are processes you can do that's classed as homesteading in those areas. yeah So scale it up. And I'll say it again, the world's your oyster.
01:05:25
Speaker
And so when does that course kick off, Brett? Your next PDC HC? Yeah, so it kicks off on the first of March. Okay, next year. The registration's only just gone up. Just starting to fill in now, which is really cool. And for those, can I make mention, for those that have already done a PDC, with the our extensions that we're gonna be setting up next year for anybody that's done a PDC anyway. I don't care if you've done a PDC online with Jeff Lawton down in Victoria, whatever. um our pd six Our homesteading extensions are gonna be for those that have undertaken a PDC and we will be putting that restriction on it that you must have done some form of PDC only because it's permaculture principles homesteading and we're not gonna be teaching the perm the the PDC part of it in the extensions.
01:06:12
Speaker
So, in a way, yes, am I forcing you to try and get into into some form of PDC? There's even free PDCs online. There is no excuse not to do one, right? Do you know I haven't done one? I just went and lived at Meliodora and I didn't do a PDC. Katie, get out there. I know. Make it happen. I've still got two more questions for you, so don't keep me out just yet. They're all right. but I know I need to, Brett. It's like, yeah, what's what's your, like, where do people come from for your PDCs mainly?
01:06:43
Speaker
uh, interstate, all over the state. And across the moment I've got, we usually get international students, um so we don't get many. We're not like Jeff who, he he does work overseas and he's you know he's amazing. He was one of the original permaculture gurus that got me going back in the day.
01:07:00
Speaker
but um We get, like right now, we've got ah an awesome Belgium going now, of course, and we get we get from Victoria and we get from Queensland, but I do say, so we're very clear, I do say to many of the inquiries that to try and localise your learning, if you can. But if that learning doesn't incorporate certain things, then maybe we are the ones for you. So how does that work if it's over it's beautifully spread over weekends? Are people just basing themselves in like a work exchange capacity nearby or is there long-term camping available? but They come up james because it's two weeks it's fortnightly they'll make the journey and I mean it's it's amazing how some of the journeys people make especially from out west where it sometimes is seven and eight hours just to get here right
01:07:47
Speaker
um and like But they'll come here and we'll do our best to help them out. But we don't have accommodation on our little place. It's too small. But what we have is an accommodation page attached to us where all our local accommodators um will give a little discount if if they if they know you're a student. And also we have very cheap accommodation. So we have our Stroud Showground camping.
01:08:10
Speaker
So there's we have everything from camping to being in a pub to glamping to then moving right up into something quite fancy if you want um it's all available around us and it's ah You know, it's priced right down to the affordable amazing yeah Yeah, and that that brings me into what I would dearly love to ask about um if you don't mind I'm just watching a beautiful Kookaburra on the edge of one of your espalier netted situations there gorgeous he's matching the pegs is those relationships that you've cultivated with with your community and it really speaks of like the work that you've done and what value you place in those those relationships and connections with your local village and when we were here Brett you were telling us about a pretty cool system that you had around
01:08:56
Speaker
um alerting folks to wild dogs because they're a problem here. And I don't know if you want to kind of use that as a bit of a foundation for talking about what your um how you're ceded resilience here in Stroud Road. But if you could speak to that, that would be great because it's not about this solo back to the lander who's defending their patch, is it? it's It's such a collective effort.
01:09:18
Speaker
Well, maybe instead of talking about that that one that one thing about the dogs, um let me point out that first and foremost, and this is a big topic at the moment, so different educators, permaculture educators on either side of the fence, that's okay, right? We're all allowed to have our opinions, that's fantastic. um I'm on the side of self-sufficiency to then build resilience and then to build confidence for you to be part of a self-sufficient community.
01:09:48
Speaker
right so So for me, um you're offering back to a community, you're offering back, so we're talking about the resilience of ah of a village, of a township, of a greater community, of a regional area. but It starts with you having the skills and certain certain things to offer back because I'm not a big fan of, for myself, I can only speak for myself, I'm not a fan of walking into somewhere and me nodding having me not having anything to offer.
01:10:18
Speaker
i I was always brought up, if I went somewhere, I took a loaf of bread. I was a kid. right so my mu If I was going to a state friend's place, my mum would say, here's loaf of bread, you're going somewhere, take something. So that's the same as what is now. So then for me, um to build a resilient community, you have to have some resilience yourself.
01:10:40
Speaker
right And that's, hopefully that's what I'm trying to get across to all our students and and our visitors that come on the tours and whatnot, is that but you don't have to be the resilient person and you don't have to be, and there is no true actual self sufficiency.
01:10:57
Speaker
right um you know Let's face it, you could have everything you ever needed and you break your legs and you break your hips and you break your shoulders the next day and then you're in hospital and then who's looking after everything. So yes, self-sufficiency as ah as ah an endpoint it doesn't exist, but it does exist as a learning curve, as ah as a skill curve to then be able to give more back to your community.
01:11:25
Speaker
and And giving back's not just what comes out of the land, but what comes out of you. So the idea that um the more skilled and the more resilient you are, the more you can pass on that information and pass on that knowledge. So be the one to be the one to teach as much as be the one to learn.
01:11:43
Speaker
right so ah What you'll get from me is um I am a fan of self-sufficiency, I am a fan of um you know being resilient on the homestead, whatever homestead that is, and then doing your utmost to be part of your village, your community, and and and and being involved in sharing. Yeah, sharing everything, for sure, because it it it strengthens it strengthens your life.
01:12:08
Speaker
In times of need, they're the ones that'll come back and help you out. So it's truly important. But yeah. Yeah. The Limestone Permaculture Cup is overflowing as usual. And I feel like you're overflowing with amazing wisdom for us. Like it's just such a pleasure speaking with you. and it It's so motivating. And I can just imagine how your students feel being in your orbit for that time and coming away with such a sense of strength and solidity and sturdiness that maybe they've never felt before and so one last thing that I'd love to hear about is what you're doing on the property right now because it is absolutely rambunctiously springtime and um I know there's a lot of avid gardeners who listen and yeah if you care to share like maybe what you're sewing or what you're experimenting with so let's get this straight Katie you've got another four hours
01:13:00
Speaker
I do if peter um you Well, I'm in no rush. But um there is so much going on. There always is. I mean, that's this is the whole thing, guys. It's not a case of you waking up in the morning to to want to get out and do something. It's the fact that you went to bed thinking about what you're going to do the next day, and you can't even sleep in.
01:13:20
Speaker
so So to the point where you'll need a little lamp at the side of your bed and a little pen and a pad because at 4am you're going to come up with a good idea to the thing you're already going to do. So be prepared for that. This is this is what happens. But trust me, you have so much enthusiasm, so so much excitement that Everything else just flows. Everything else will happen, right? So as far as what's going on on the farm, oh, wow. All right, so apart from the projects, so the projects have been heavily involved around the homesteading stuff that we're getting ready for next year. So we've built the the new poultry station, which um is and is just a name, right? We've built the new, and when I say new, it's,
01:14:03
Speaker
mostly from recycled materials, um but it's new to us. And we built the new outdoor um prep and it's a little bit of a cool room, but it's passively cooled. So there's actually no energy running it by how it's being built correctly.
01:14:19
Speaker
um We're getting a lot of our other setups ready for the course. And again, this is all part of what we're doing right now, which is including the way we are spatially designed in our sheds and our latest pantry and possibly possibly a subfloor scenario that I'm looking at at the moment too. Because we're looking at places that are cool during our hot summers that can get to 48, 49 degrees.
01:14:45
Speaker
So um the planting side of things, wow, um we've been busy doing succession planting. The good thing about succession planting is you learn hard and fast what can go in at certain times while other things are finishing off. um So at this moment in time, it happens to be tomatoes finding their way in amongst brassicas. So as the brassicas are winding down, we're starting to pull leaves away from some of the ones that are still there, finding little oases of of of soil that the tomatoes can then have a ah start to. And because our tomatoes are vertically grown, so our tomatoes come up and we wind, they're in hooked tunnels and we wind them on so they end up creating their own tunnel, if you like.
01:15:28
Speaker
So they're in there. um We've been gilding them up. So around them, all the little things that everybody's used to. So basil, lettuce, chives, all the yeah and a lot of cast seeds. So we we save a lot of our lettuce seed and we make seed wands.
01:15:44
Speaker
So have you ever used a seed wand, Katie? I don't know if I'm qualified. yeah Okay, so it's a little bit witchy, Peter, right? but But basically, it's allowing your lettuce to grow into little trees, which are beautiful, by the way, um and then collecting them up, and especially if you get one, two, three, and four different varieties, combine them together, cut the roots away so all the seed is still on them. You dry them upside down in the bag, and when they're dry, you lose a little bit of seed, but it's caught in the bag. The rest of it stays on the wand.
01:16:12
Speaker
And then once you've strategically planted your veggie garden here, you can then cast that seed in and around and it fills the voids and it becomes your carpet. right It becomes your living mulch. Now know it just happens to be lettuce. Now if you get really tricky, you can combine three lettuce with a coriander, maybe with a little bit of beetroot. So you can work your ratio, so you might have ah a little bit less ah lettuce and have more of the things that don't take up much space. So a carrot doesn't take up much space. So a little bit more carrot, a little bit of leek, a little bit of onion, a little bit of this, that and the other. And you can make up gilled wands.
01:16:48
Speaker
that are ready to go. This is apart from also having gill seed mixes done in old Macona jars and stuff like that. And these are your cast in mix where you just scratch the surface, cast in and water it. Far out. In amongst your strategically planted veg like tomatoes and capsicles and eggplants and all those kind of things. So that's all happening right now.
01:17:09
Speaker
Whoa, okay, so for anyone who doesn't know what a guild is, can you just quickly explain that? Yeah, easily. So in the plant world, now a guild happens can happen anywhere, right? So in the plant world, a guild is supportive plants so that are beneficial to either a main plant or main crop. So you know if you're growing corn, you always hear about the three sisters.
01:17:34
Speaker
right And for those that haven't, that could be climbing beans because they're light and they won't pull the corn over, and then something that is ground-based. So it could be ground-based pumpkins that don't climb and and and other things that can grow along the ground. So then you can get three forms of vegetable, and then you can get really tricky and make it five or six forms. um So a guild is about placing in plants that are that most importantly are not detrimental,
01:18:01
Speaker
to the other plant. So they don't exactly have to have the other plant thriving. Nature will work that out. but they just can't be So in other words, if you planted something like a cabbage um right next to a carrot, the cabbage leaf is going to swamp the carrot and it'll flatten over the top of foot it and the carrot will die.
01:18:21
Speaker
So it's about and this understanding ah time and space. So it's the timing of something being planned, so it may not happen all at once, and it's the spatial requirements of it. yeah Now, just to finish off, a guild for humans is then setting yourself up to being amongst either beneficial people that'll support you and your family, or you're part of the beneficial guild that's supporting some other person and family.
01:18:45
Speaker
I like to climb all over people. I'm more of a creeper. yes so Yeah, so then you would have a place. You would have a place to be. And just on the carrot front, talking about scattering things around, carrots are so notoriously fickle or hard to hard to germinate. What's your secret? Oh, they're easy. Yeah. um Okay, so um carrots need less quality soil than most veg. Yes. So they love a sandy loam. But such a fine tilse.
01:19:14
Speaker
Look, essentially, okay. Now we're gonna get deep, just for a second. This is the extension there. You guys need to get this. A carrot is not a carrot. A beetroot is not a beetroot. A lettuce is not a lettuce. If I said to you, let's just bring beetroot up for a real quick second, or we'll come back to carrot. If I said to you that you were researching beetroot and you came across a chilgia beetroot or a bull's blood beetroot,
01:19:44
Speaker
and you and I asked you to find the origin of these beetroot. You would find out that one may have been in the Mediterranean and one may have been in Europe or Northern Europe, right? Which one's gonna do better in winter and which one's gonna do better in summer?
01:20:00
Speaker
Right, so first and foremost, okay, all of a sudden we're starting to understand that there is a ripe beetroot for a certain time, then there's the same in carrot, right? And there's the same in lettuce, and there's the, it goes on and on and on, right? So, because these things have grown all around the world, so you need to get adaptive species that work for for not just the climate, but then there's also the ones for soil tops. So maybe some of these carrot, certain carrots, so there's carrots that grow shorter and stumpier,
01:20:30
Speaker
right So there's certain currents of growth stumpy that that don't won't project or penetrate deeper and are used to shallow soils. Then there's more slender ones that have that ah that can handle sandy soil. So first and foremost, before you even change your soils, you can pick the appropriate plant. And as I say to my students all the time, there is a plant for every occasion.
01:20:50
Speaker
Always, right? So then modifying the soils can be done. So again, usually it's not so tricky, right? There's just a few little steps that need to be taken and it's not something you need to do every year. Once you've done it, you can set it up so it's going to look after a certain type of veg and you might get back to it once each year to grow a certain type of carrot, which we've got on our property.
01:21:13
Speaker
But generally speaking, you'll find that we grow different beetroot down on the terraces than what we grow up in the tunnel gardens. We grow different carrots. So first and foremost, do your research, folks. Check out what is available. Where did it come from? right yeah And no, it doesn't come out of a pack.
01:21:29
Speaker
right you need to You need to actually go deeper. It's it's like ginger. Ginger's grown up in Queensland in open rose, but where did ginger
Permaculture Basics: Plant Needs and Conditions
01:21:38
Speaker
come from? And if you do your research, you'll find out it came ah came under canopy. So it had some form of canopy. So it loves filtered shade and and usually was near some kind of moisture. So it was either in a rainforest conditions or as near a riparian zone or something like that.
01:21:54
Speaker
and so then it offers you an idea of where things can go. So being selective, and instead of you building a garden and going, I ah need that garden to have all that veg, you need to look at where veg will go. And maybe save building a garden so some things might not need the garden you're gonna make for them. God, it's just terrifying logic. Well, again, we the best way to learn these things is first and foremost, start, you know, get there and go, oh, you have a little aha moment.
01:22:24
Speaker
then you do a little bit of research, but then at some point, ideally catch up with somebody doing it. like So we have you know we have interns, ah currently I've got an intern, um our our courses are hands on. So yes, this presentation, but there's lots of hands on. So our students go away knowing about this, they learn it, they touch it, they they do in situ compost gardening.
01:22:49
Speaker
and all this kind of things. So what I would say is there's other people out there, of course I don't know them all, there's other people out there, other other educators and and and and skilled people out there doing this, find them. Make them part of your plenary journey, right? Get out there and find them, yeah.
01:23:06
Speaker
But as you said, that other dimension of um obsession and excitement and like verve for what you're doing is the notepad by the side of the bed because you're constantly refining and experimenting. And that's also not something to be overwhelmed by. That's the reason why to do anything, the the the the love for that process and that passion that comes along with it. So yeah, it's kind of like having enough knowledge to get going and being mentored, but also just accepting that you're gonna have wins and fails and the whole thing's gonna be unfolding. I've had thousands of failures. With all the knowledge, we started off with all that, you know I did the courses, I read the books and still had a stack of failures because
01:23:47
Speaker
your context of like, it could be that you're away from the farm for or away from the garden for a week. It could be that an event came through that you hadn't prepared for. There's always gonna be something, but I tell you what, again, I'll say it. You only have to experience it once to understand that it can happen again and you will do things to ensure that it won't, that that you can ride it out, that you can be resilient for it, right?
01:24:10
Speaker
um But yeah, absolutely guys, I would say do what you can, research when you can. If you're if you've got an office job, Do what I did. I can say this now because I can't be sacked. But but during my office job, if I had lunch break, um you know, instead of just, you know, you can go for walks in the park, that's nice. It is good to refresh yourself. But if you're gonna do that, use your observation powers, look and see what's going on. If not, do some, stop, grab a book and and read and read about the things that are gonna progress your journey, right? so So things like, you know, there's books out there called Roots Demystified.
01:24:50
Speaker
Yes, that's a book, right? Where every page is a hand-drawn picture of every vegetable root known and an explanation.
Relaxation and Personal Interests
01:25:00
Speaker
and ah and And so it visually tells you what the roots do of a beetroot, of a carrot, of a lettuce. And when you know, you know, you can't unknow that.
01:25:11
Speaker
I think I'm gonna ask for that for Christmas. It's very, I can't, Robert, Robert's somebody, right? I'll find it and look at it. It is amazing, yeah. So there is. There's a book for every occasion too, right? Right. Okay, so two rapid fire questions, because I know you're a mental tap dancer and you can think on your feet and it's gonna be fine. So one question is, when you leased permaculture? Oh, are you ready for this? When I'm having a beer watching Rugby Loot,
01:25:38
Speaker
And I think people are gonna be like, what team? I don't know the first thing about it. The Knights, of course. Newcastle Knights. Yeah, this is Rugby League, guys. It's not AFL. This is New South Wales up here, right? Yeah, the Victorians will just have to calm their farm over that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yes, I'm a Knights tragic for anybody that follows the NRL. um I do love my Rugby League. It is, a you know, it's a sport that I played a little bit when I was younger. And yes, ah that is that is a little bit of me time.
01:26:06
Speaker
Awesome, thank you for the honesty. No shame in that. um And lastly, I was doing a little segment that i'm so I'm, you know, variously sometimes not committed to, but I think it's quite fun. It's called one resilient thing. And it's basically like an exercise or a provocation or an invitation that you could put to the listener to say, here's something to do to kind of bring what we've talked about to life. Wow.
01:26:32
Speaker
Wow, there's a billion things. um One billion resilient things. Yes, there is. ah Look, I'm going to have to go back and and and mention the fact that um that these days, if if you haven't started delving into permaculture,
01:26:54
Speaker
here's the book that I would start with. Now, I am gonna be probably crucified for this, but Romoro, Right? We love it. Yeah, Ray Moray's book. Now it used to be Earth Uses Guide to Permaculture. It's now Earth Restorers Guide to Permaculture. It's beautiful. It is the book that I am sure Bill Mollison would love everybody to be reading right now. Bill Mollison's book is the manual. It is the book you bring out for the the technical stuff. my It's the book I bring out when I really wanna get down to some nitty nitty gritty, right? It's like bringing it out if your car broke down.
01:27:34
Speaker
um And again, most people may not agree with me with that. That's fine. This is just my opinion. But Ray Morrell gave the softened approach um and made it more reader friendly.
01:27:48
Speaker
Right, so for everybody, even right down to younger students. So my offering right now is if you don't own that book, you need to either own it, um and by the way, the Earth Users Guide, which is the early editions, so two editions, you can still find them, and I just found one only two weeks ago, right, at Gloucester.
01:28:10
Speaker
um bookshop, the old bookshop up there, right? And and so you'll pick them up for $8 and whatever. um So if you can only find the Earth users guide, that is awesome. If you happen to have a little bit of side money coin there for an investment, well, buy the brand new edition because that is extra
Applying Permaculture Locally and Building Resilience
01:28:31
Speaker
amazing. through Melodoro Publishing. Through Melodoro Publishing, that's where we get all our books through. Very ethical publishing agency. um And so that's the book, right? um Secondly, what I would say is get outside, stop, sit down, grab a beer, a wine, a coffee, a tea, a chai, latte, whatever, and start observing the areas on your wherever you live. So ideally, if you're on a veranda if you're in ah an apartment, go out in your veranda,
01:29:02
Speaker
look at it spatially look at all the potential and if you don't know all the potential take in what it is then start googling reading books and see what's possible on walls along handrails in small spaces right if you're in an urban environment and you've got courtyards or even a little bit bigger yard move into what's possible with maybe some chickens bringing bringing that fluffy feathered, friendly life in your game is just awesomeness, right? Easily as good as pets as dogs and cats.
01:29:34
Speaker
um And if you're on the rural zone, here's what I'm gonna say to you, stop looking out over the fence and start just looking out just past your doorway, right? So look immediately what's going on on your actual homestead zone. I i do consultancies all the time and I will finish with this. I do consultancies all the time. And when I go for the rural consultancies, cause I go everywhere, um one of the things that always amaze me is that they don't actually have a homestead.
01:30:03
Speaker
for a huge farm. right So sadly, I think that's what's missing. and and and And when things get a bit tough from a commercial perspective, whether it be drought or or prices drop or whatever, just having that that that aliveness close around your house, the fact that you can pick fruit and veg and the herbs and the edible flowers and there's little bubbly feathery life going on all around you can then make a bad day seem and not so bad.
01:30:33
Speaker
So bring it in, bring it in closer. yeah Your home and hub, right, is is the next closest thing to you, right? So the zone zero zero is you and the inner you. Zone zero is the home and hub. Look after it, give it everything it requires, show it respect. If you've got edges, spots around the sides of the the plate, whatever, fill it in, build get that place resilient. And so,
01:31:02
Speaker
Do that first before you start thinking about going out far and wide. And that's what I would offer up. ah Look, you could go forever. Ah, Brett, you're the most epic fruiting body of perm culture ever. I'm so glad you sprouted from the ground. And um thanks for bringing your energy and inspiration to Reskillions. It's just, yeah, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you. Thanks, Katie, my pleasure.
01:31:29
Speaker
I hope you loved that conversation with Brett Cooper of Limestone Permaculture and that you have a sec to go faucicking about in the show notes, which are rich indeed in links and inspiration and ways to engage with Brett and his awesome teachings. Well, I pretty much said everything I wanted to say and more at the top of the show. So I'm going to leave you with a big thanks for being here and excitement to catch you in the next episode.