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Revolutionizing spiritual experiences | VAMA
23 Plays3 months ago
Thanks to VAMA, India's top astrology and mandir app, you can now experience the convenience of performing pooja, mandir darshan, and more, all from the comfort of your home.
In this episode, Manu Jain discusses the opportunities and challenges within the Indian spirituality market, particularly emphasising how COVID-19 spurred the adoption of such virtual astrology and pooja services. Tune in to understand how VAMA is disrupting the conventional offline model of spiritual businesses, making it more easily accessible and convenient than ever before.
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Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Manu. I'm the co-founder of Vama.app.
00:00:16
Speaker
Manu, let's start by understanding the trigger to become a founder. Tell us about that. I think I'm an accidental founder, Akshay. I was a corporate employee for about 17, 18 years. Last job was at ASAN. And this is when India was going to the geomobile revolution. And if you've done well in your corporate life, so you feel you're good at it. So I wanted to apply work for the top companies. And I can name them Amazon, Google, Meta,
00:00:52
Speaker
interview call me here. So reality is this, right? Like, I'm not a pedigree education guy. ah And there was a joke in my social circle at that time, from one HR of one of these companies who said, tell this boy to stop sending his resume. Because I use so many of my friends, I said, I can do with a little, right? and And you know, you I didn't make the you like, you didn't get an interview call,
Journey from VAS to Carbonate
00:01:15
Speaker
right? Like, and then I would thought that, okay, what would I do? I could have gone back. to complete that I had worked for earlier like Paytm197 has to end their B2B business for telecom operators.
00:01:28
Speaker
um on be part of that last va is an interesting world and I mean, today it's like, ah I would say almost like a dead kind of a yeah business yeah model, but there were so many companies which got their start in this vast space, including PTM and a bunch of others. at What was VAS? I mean, you know, most people today may not even understand VAS. ah So that means value added services. So whatever you use your mobile phone for outside of calling and texting, um, even like mobile data at one time was vast, right? Like, so people would take some qualities is a great example of vast. You'd be very surprised to know that India's largest vast consumed service was actual.
00:02:14
Speaker
and I think that's the genesis of it. But I think coming back to my founder journey, so you're unemployed but because you you want to work for a set of companies and you don't get a job, and then you don't want to compromise and go back to where you've come from. and i go over a conversation with I remember this very distinctly. This was a friend from PTN, he's called Ajay. Ajay literally said, you've made enough people millionaires, why don't you try for yourself? but i oh And he said, if it doesn't work, come work for us at one night. And I remember this call very clearly, right? And I said, okay, I'll try. I had an idea.
00:02:51
Speaker
to try to build something in the vast ecosystem. And it started from that. And to tell you honestly, I never thought of raising venture at that time. It didn't even occur to me that someone would find me. This is 2018. This is 2018. This is 2018. This is 2018. This is the vast market deado, I think. What's up? Yeah, it was a large dam. It was not a very large dam. I just want to help my listeners yeah understand VAS market, what that means. So like, ah ah for example, Cricut updates, you know, you you pay 50 rupees a month and you get SMS with Cricut updates on what's happening. So Cricut fans would subscribe to it. So this was a big market, three smartphones. Once you had smartphones, then for Cricut updates, users download an app. So that service is no longer something for which a telecom operator can monetize you. yeah
00:03:47
Speaker
And same thing would have been there for Astrology also, I'm assuming. You would have paid 50 rupees a month to get daily Horace course. You would pay 9 rupees a minute to go talk to an astronaut. Okay, got it. So what was your idea? So the idea of non-internet phones was still there in India. Even today, I think 18% of India is on a non-internet phone. So I built a content product for them, tied up with Nokia, Carbon, Lava, MicroMax. and That product did very well for me. It was a new, cool product. It became the genesis of my first company called Carbonate. And when I was building Carbonate, it became more a services business. We went out to Middle East. We went out to Myanmar. We went to Africa. What was the content about? Help me understand the product. Yes, the content was astrology, surprisingly. Astrology, Bollywood updates. Then we started doing small, real, you know, casual, hyper-casual games.
00:04:46
Speaker
like So we basically became like a distribution channel also for a lot of companies to go to telecom operators. Plus I needed to find my own. Why why would Nokia pay you for this? Like a Nokia feature phone would have some sort of an astrology app in it. That's why. i would so i mean i So I would hire hard bundle my app of astrology on a Nokia feature phone, which had telecom operators for billing. And that's literally how we saw it. Take it. Got it.
Birth of Vama.app
00:05:18
Speaker
Okay. So this did very well for me. What kind of revenue? We hit 3 million ARR. Wow. With no external funding. No funding. No funding. Lead team. And this is super profitable business man. This is like a great cash cow business.
00:05:39
Speaker
um But, you know, I always used to think that VAS has a shelf life. And I think that's why I also wanted to build something else. um I think it's the fear building it. Basically it's a technology arbitrage. You said 80%. You think a feature forward. Oh, 18% will become 10%, 5%. Yeah, 100%. And I think while I was building ah carbonate, I was hustling.
00:06:13
Speaker
Because I had two daughters, you can't go to parents for money. ah you could You don't want to even share with your partner or wife. yeah probably yeah butlanka hani ga like but i many fortune three billionaire so like But it took so similar error like 20 years. Like when I started, it was tough, right? Like 2018. No salary. No salary. ah do I was very fortunate. um You know, I tried to put a science behind it. I asked for help a lot Akshay, you know, and I go deep into my network, right? um So I got deep inside. I just want to point out to listeners here before we started recording, you asked me for advice on what should I do to be a good guest? So I can validate your claim that you asked for help.
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, you know, so I went to, I went, I did consulting gigs. I worked with a company called Shiro's, uh, which is run by a society of phenomenal and you know, I work for Boku mobile identity, but I'm a sales partnerships guy, right? So I said, I will do my sales partnership skill. You pay me some fixed consulting and in the evening I will build my startup. Right. um soic other like multiple calm company me yeah that's an hard and And that did very well for me. I was consulting last with a company called Boku. Then I joined Puro, Mobile Identity, Larg, Funded Starter. I was building this. um And I always had the fear of carbonate dying, right? That's my first startup, right?
00:07:47
Speaker
mother ah Surprisingly, Arj, we can't do that. And i know this year in 2019, it will die. um While the business drastically scaled down. But yeah, wife runs it. A couple of friends support it. ah So it runs. It may be still solving the purpose, puts money on the, puts food on the table is how I say it. And Vama happened because the three co-founders, all of us come from that vast ecosystem. Iman Shoo, my co-founder, was my client back in the day at Vodafone in 2010 when I was at 197. So we're seeing a strategy was my content partner that I used to take content from you know for astrology.
00:08:28
Speaker
So, if you were a consumer, which consumer can now but ah used to sy the arch key categories up there and you would see people posting on social media that AstraBajji is doing so well. And we knew a lot of those people because a lot of these people that you see today were vast vendors. So, we know them for a lot of years. Who are these people? You're talking about things. So, like Astra Yogi, Ganesha Speaks. okay ah so Asho Yogi Ganesha speaks about large la legacy VAS companies, which pivoted, became these large internet companies also. right So we saw them and we thought here, because of now. ATV is the same story. VAS companies that they do. So 197, Nazara, um even Viru, in short, if I'm not wrong, ah they were all VAS partners, like one point of mine, that became really large. ah
00:09:23
Speaker
you know and I think a lot of people today at senior internet companies come from that content background. This was before mobile internet became popular, the we were selling content, right? I think India, the RAS industry has given India good good or a decent bunch of entrepreneurs. Absolutely. Gokhi Vishal also was in the RAS space. Yeah, absolutely. absolutely yeah so think that's how but our journey started project consumer i had to aslog to what is umha yo know afhan give you an example right two thousand ten eleven i used to remember to service one nine seven
00:09:58
Speaker
so is just spell is word and and the vote of lasthans would say are revenueura let's promote as but and And that was it, man. So we remember this and we used to see these online people and we said, yeah, if they are making a
Evolution of Vama's Services
00:10:11
Speaker
hundred rupees, we will make at least 10 rupees. No, you know, and that's, and we were fine with it. Right. And literally that's how we started a charge. He fortunately had a supplier after Roger. So he was a large vendor for our business partner for telecom operators with telecom last dying. We suddenly had this pool of astrologers who had no work, right? I
00:10:30
Speaker
thea abbona a there You know, how difficult can it be? ah It's been now close to what, four years? And yes, and you're still hustling. Okay, okay, okay. Interesting. oh Help me understand about Acharya Dev, your co-founder on the astrology side. what Is he like an astronomer and what is his background? yeah So Acharya Dev, his grandfather Rajguru, that means he was an astrologer himself, his father was an astrologer, he's an astrologer.
00:11:03
Speaker
So it's a generation thing. He comes from, like, he has seen all the struggles in life, became a telecom, large partner. ah So has seen that journey, right? He learned tech because he was a vendor. guia i yeah the call rapa and He hustled and he's done this. graduate in astrology, gave a PhD in astrology, very man of faith. right like ah um media um out there show me a pen a one number like in about three years when they yeah the english but ah And and some some people would judge you for it also. True, true, true. But yeah, I think and our journey has been, he's been the center.
00:11:54
Speaker
ah so the but so the So the story is this, right? Like he said, I want to build internet. um make which oneana name a cool ah Me and Himanshu were sitting with him and he said, you are the two people that I trust the most. You know, forget competence. you know because was major until t yeah ito milkebana there right like For us, it's always yeah trust. Small town ethos is that trust delivers capability. yeah the so So that's the story. ah
00:12:26
Speaker
so what was and What was Vama? like What did you launch? So we launched an astrology platform where you could come to take astrology. The company registered name is Select Astro. Our first app was called Select Astro in 2021 and I think we launched. but i thought okay yeah the love training team maybe Right. So started from astrology, you know, and we were then trying to figure our calling in this space, right? Like, um, though there were three things, right? And this is literally first principles, right? If you go to an astrologer, an astrologer will recommend you something. And if he recommends you a remedy, a remedy is either you wear a gemstone or you get a poojada.
00:13:14
Speaker
So we thought that gemstone was an easy e-commerce play. We couldn't do Pooja play. So we went to temples, went to Mahakal and had a gem. And I think we were... So Mahakal was a very epic, shibji temple. or didling um So Mahakal and Pooja tried to get that temple on board at that point of time. Then we went to a very close-by temple. We had a very astrology-led Pooja. And actually, you know, the light bulb went on like this. right news We saw about 70 to 80 priests doing astrology at that temple on ground. There were four of them who were doing WhatsApp radio.
00:13:58
Speaker
I think that's where it started for us. yeah We can easily build this, right? And I'll tell you, like a lot of people ask us this here. I'm like, you know, you know ah my TV goes to them, right? Because they do this for a living, right? Like COVID taught everyone how to be mobile. so right True. ah Today, Vama is a services platform where you can consume as a body. And you can also book virtual pujang. Very soon, we will have stuff like donation, dan, charawa, e-commerce, as well.
00:14:34
Speaker
but i
00:14:36
Speaker
So this first version Select Astro would have been something like an urban club where you can, or was it more like a marketplace where there are astrologers. It's a marketplace for astrologers. The only. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely marketplace for astrologers. The only difference actually was that um we had in-house astrologers. We were very conscious of the kind of astrology we want to do, the kind of astrologers we want to get. but a strategy can marry in-house asloo's agent one la right So we had a captive audience of astrologers. So we had a captive audience of astrologers.
00:15:16
Speaker
ah ji koha And people would choose which astrology, like they would be like a profile. Yeah, absolutely. You could see ratings, you could choose everything. Okay. Okay. okay
00:15:33
Speaker
So these kinds of ah marketplaces where you are connected and you choose the person, I've not seen them scale. Typically what scales is like in urban company, you don't choose, konaka repair kaa whatever, if you need an AC service, you don't choose who's going to service it. ah yeah the branch stand so gar and I mean, the brand guarantees you consistent quality. ah But you know, the business that we are in is very, it's failed, right? oh You can't have, like, the trust and fate won't come on a black, like, behind a curtain, right? Like, no, no. I think that's why the market has continued to operate like this. People have tried it. I think we were very conscious of, we will never try it. We know the what the audience wants, right?
00:16:26
Speaker
You know, I think that's why I tell people that they are blind. They are confused. But if you go to a doctor, you want to go to the same doctor again and again. Actually, you know, the point is that you want to be sure who you are talking to. You can talk to multiple people at the clinic. You can talk to multiple doctors at the clinic. If the hospital is good, all doctors are good. Right? So... But you will not go blindly into a hospital, right? Like you want to see the face of the doctor. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I understand. And so and what was your monetization model? Like how much were you charging for this service of select Astro?
Vama's Unique Business Model
00:17:10
Speaker
So customers used to pay for astrology per minute. The pricing for astrologers were per minute and you could buy a top up very, very, uh, inspired by telecom operator days. Okay. but heharge out what just afterwards a barker near but the little bit fair needs little be bit up about so good Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. And, uh, so 21, you lost, right? Yeah. Okay. So we started late 20, 20, we started about, and they are pretty one app was alive.
00:17:46
Speaker
so okay Okay. What has been the like traction since then? who What kind of revenues do you see currently? and works it goes two so So we do about 2 million ARR, approximately. ah maybe about um ah April has been a little higher. like um it's So we are more kuja than astrology today. I think we earth are 65-70% of our revenue comes from The remaining comes from astrology. And we also did some B2B partnerships. it is a It is something that I think comes with the team.
00:18:20
Speaker
so we started like givantati gas emoji um ba what of on idea but like afterlog you discovered but ah warhambaad Such things we do. ah These are experiments to get a distribution on pilots that we do. So this ah this is a content service to Jeevan Sati that you're providing or Jeevan Sati has this consent app. No, no. So it's a content service. It's a live label service for them. So you could do, they use some of our reports for matchmaking, et cetera. That is how we see it. So the content product would be input date and output is a report. but okay Okay. How do you build this kind of a product? like
00:19:08
Speaker
based on date of birth, what kind of report is generated, like how did you build it? So basically a detailed analysis, you know, so we take a 24 hour time to build this out for you. And then you have a question or two questions that you want a master order to answer. So we have 24 hours for an answer to answer those two questions that you have. I said, this is not like- It's not on the flight. I said, so I thought maybe some machine learning models get through instant. No, yeah. While kundli can be generated instant, but people ah people are paying for their questions that they have and they want their answers. Okay. So this kundli service is basically a-
00:19:48
Speaker
It's like a KPO in a way. You have trained and qualified resources who will receive it a requirement to prepare a Kundli and they will prepare that in 24 hours. Kundli on the fly internet by enough platform this will still generate. It's more about reading that chart and answering your question. I think that's where the actual benefit is. Okay, okay, okay, got it, got it, got it, okay, okay. And does this JIWSA theta app give you users to the VAMA app? Like, ah is it powered by VAMA over there? So powered by VAMA, ah the we get some users for sure, I think that's the reason, that's the nature of the partnership, but right? It's now been two years, but yeah, then then fairly well for us. Okay, okay, okay, interesting.
00:20:38
Speaker
I was curious used to understand how Puja became such a big part as opposed to consult. Yes. Actually, it's very strange. right like So we launched Puja. In our mind, that you will do an astrology session and after the recommendation of Puja, you will. right It didn't take off the way we thought it. Then, you on one of our visits to a temple, We realized we saw six people sitting in front of a pajari and the pajari took six names together. Then we said, yeah you to what say yeah I could do this on the internet. I could basically make sessions every, every week, every day at a time of an event. And then you could subscribe to that.
00:21:23
Speaker
Like, completely inspired from edtech, I said, so that suddenly blew up. So people would pay less than a thousand rupees to take part in a pooja, which is at a predefined time, predefined purpose of the pooja. And if you want a detailed pooja, if Akshay wants to talk to the pooja, that is always available like a VIP pooja. But we saw uptake more on the, I think India is a very price-conscious market also. right So this price you were able to get down because of the multiple people sitting there. Okay. Okay. Okay. Help me understand what are these types of pujans you said based on certain events or like give me examples. So what we see today today, so there could be a Kalsat Yog Puja, there could be a Mangli Puja, which are astral agility events, but there are also then.
00:22:09
Speaker
you know, things that people want the So that is one of our most popular futures. It's okay. right ah you know That temple is exclusive to Varma online.
00:22:34
Speaker
So people today on our platform do Puja. We are Puja first, not yet temple first. I think we are getting ah some temples also and we are doing people in temples. But people come for a special purpose on the pooja. But also, I would like to ask you question about the supply-driven market.
00:23:00
Speaker
so okay okay okay okay and this so ah Is this a supply-driven market where you know the more supply you build of different types of poojas, the demand is there to take. You just have to build supply. So I don't think the demand is there today, but I think supply will be a big supply is the reason why the guy that someone will win. You could have demand, but if we control supply, you will come to us. but i ah I think demand is an easier problem to solve in mobile internet and on for consumer tech startup. you need to have
00:23:34
Speaker
You just need to go raise $20 billion, dollars then you need to spend money on people in Google, and you will get demand. right Supply is something that's more hard. very um So we have supply first. We focus more on supply. right I think we're still building our demand funds. We're very early in our stage. Our journey hasn't raised that much money. No one gave it to us. So you go back to the basics, right what you know and how you can build it. right Okay, okay. Are there people competing for supply with you? 100% yeah. ah who who yeah any any India, any company does well. There are 100 competitors who will come out bring up and do. So they are good like polia there are people in business. So Srimandar is one of the largest company and and I love his product. Prashant is one of the great founders of India. He was well co-founder.
00:24:29
Speaker
He's a great product, one of the highest re repeat rating gauges. So while he competes, but we try to help each other, complement each other wherever we can right also, or trying to get there at least. Srimathir is not astrology first, it's more of a temple. It's a temple. Access the temple of your choice and get a puja done there if you want to. win Access like a God picture of temples also is believing. Okay. Okay. Okay. So his monitor, but even like, uh, even the Azure top, which is the largest player in, in, in the version was based today has started launching pooja, right? he Is his version of doing pooja different yet? Yeah. What is his origin?
00:25:14
Speaker
So where it's not done at temples yet. It's done by the actual site. Okay. oh go good yeah good yeah yeah yeah okay That's what my understanding of it anyway. lu guard go me okay Okay. And you said there is an e-commerce play which you're now launching. What is that? Yeah, so it's more live commerce or live social commerce, like where basically, you know, live stream or the app. So those be led to live social commerce. Then there is also Prasad. There is gemstones, obviously, that people buy. There is with dark lot that but people buy, want to buy. right So we're trying to build on those lines.
00:26:02
Speaker
oh yeah Okay, okay, very interesting, very interesting. So these are the three revenue sources, Puja, Astrology, Kutsalv, and E-commerce. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Help me understand, you know, how do you, ah like, how have you been doing your go-to-market so far? How have you been acquiring customers? What has worked for you? What are your learnings? So the partnership worked very well. I think that's a unique thing that we have. Like, wonderful customers have worked very well. We did a partnership with BTM, we did a partnership with Ku, we did a partnership with... You name a consumer app and I have gone and pitched it and said... They have a limited website. Postchain is also your allocated money, right? So you need to think out of the box. Started building product-layered roofs also, like refills work for us. Also organic marketing works, that blog deal does well. Then obviously you do performance marketing. Not that we don't. We also do lot of food. Okay. And you've raised some money. In this market, is it easy to raise funds? Because, you know, I'm thinking that a lot of these VCs would be more Western influenced and there is no comparable for astrology in the West.
00:27:25
Speaker
So there is, so so it is a surprise that there are companies like Postar and Sanshiri which have raised money, which have raised VC dollars in astrology. Now there's a Christianity app, Glorify and Hondo, which have raised significant money. A Hindu app hasn't raised money yet, you know, but so like Sivandar is funded by Sequoia Elevation, ah top investors have already supported that. Our journey, we have raised till now including everything less than three million dollars in back.
Challenges and Market Potential
00:27:56
Speaker
um Yeah. Raising money is very difficult. It's not easy. But I think you sign up for it. right So you're right that we are not FinTech. he you know There are clear metrics for someone to look at you. Half of the VCs don't want to take a bet on something like this. It doesn't fall into their playbook. There's no playbook for them. I think the playbook for our space is still getting greater. like ah So people are waiting it out. But a lot of VCs don't want to do this. And and you but I hope some of them are listening for this. right like This is a great fundamental business. This business has existed since millennia. ah It has been the largest offline business which hasn't moved online. right And there is no reason why it will not move online. But yeah. like
00:28:48
Speaker
like menu When you go talk to people at a party or a social gathering, you talk to the party. you write the fu that he kind of at the bro cool like what do you Half of them will make fun of you or mock um of them will say your right wing um or you. know Some of them will them will say, I've had meetings with investors where investors have come and told me that you build. you're a good sales guy, you've been part of me to be like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And I truly believe that There will be three or four companies out of India that will break out of this space. There's no reason for it to not happen. All of us can't execute bad. The guy who executes the best hair will definitely make it very larger. Then there are already people who are there who are making $100 billion ARR. It's no small feat. How many fintechs in India will do $100 billion ARR?
00:29:43
Speaker
you know You're saying like an Indian astrology, I'm doing a hundred million. Yeah. Like as, as, as a hundred million dollar, give or take. So, you know, for us, we have seen this at telecom operators, the vast business of telecom operators will be astrology at nine rupees a minute with 18 to 20% internet popular mobile internet penetration. And 2015, I'm talking about was a hundred million dollar for a telephone idea. So there is no reason why after 10 years today, this business should like all of us combined should be $100 million. Okay. So there is a massive opportunity here, but um still the the typical VC objection is either we don't invest in this space or there is a like VCs who do want to look at this space. What what are their objections like?
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's early. right The market is early. The leaders haven't been identified yet. right So people are waiting it out. ah I think that's how I see it. But I think they're like, I've been fortunate to get a bunch of supporting angels. We are easily angels around. Then we did see, ah you know, from India early, hard then we got to make a venture to come and fund us. And they fund outliers. right thus There may be their pieces also. like to be fine, does not do India. We're the first in Mesopotamia. So I think, income but but I have been fortunate to have met a lot of Indian VCs along this journey. oh I think the the tide is turning. ah Maybe it's going to take one or two green shoots moments. ah Like Ram Mandir has been a great catalyst. People see what's what happened to India. People see it. You can't ignore it.
00:31:37
Speaker
ah So there are such things that are happening now in the macro environment which will which are forcing VCs or people to look at this sector.
00:31:47
Speaker
Right. the the The appetite is, there the consumer appetite is there. It's just about absolutely creating a good experience. Maybe, maybe it's not cool enough yet. ah Maybe there is no, you're right. There is no Silicon Valley, Hindu super app there, yeah but they will never be right. It will come from India, right? Someone from India. but i was also home from and but So true. So free. Are you, Do you see religion as your area or astrology as your area? What is the the market that you are using? I think they are connected. They are complementary to each other. But if you were to ask me, we are chasing...
00:32:28
Speaker
the temple ecosystem, I won't call it religion to be the right side. ah But today we are doing ah Hindu temples, a part of Hindu temples. Maybe we will do Jain, Buddhism, we will do other religions as well at some point. right But we see large opportunities in one. I think you ought to be a leader at something before we start to spread ourselves to.
00:32:53
Speaker
The commerce which happens around a temple is what you want to digitize. Like if you go to a temple, there will typically be shops outside where you can buy stuff, ah yeah be it the idols or things to ah give to the deity or whatever, like a whole bunch of things. So so all of that, you want to make it on online. Plus the actual ah act of the puja is something which you already made online. you saying You're also going to do donations. Yeah, so I'll tell you right, like we've made temples where, which are not very large temple, but they're not very small as well. but put pepper
00:33:30
Speaker
The temple administration came to us that day and said, can you also put your QR code so my donation comes directly? And it's you and and this is not this is like a fintech claim. You don't do this. And they were like, why do you want us to do it? Because they said here, abno you know you understand the business. And the temples also, it's a lot of trust game, right? like They want to talk to the guy that's doing Some deeper things for that. I think Pooja has been our first product there. We will have at least nine more products that will come out. Some of them are virtualizing or digitizing an offline product. Some are purely digitizing. A katha that happens offline by a mahant can easily be the equivalent of it is like a clubhouse room that you remember but right that used to have another Twitter like. right like It can easily come. ah people will People want to listen to it.
00:34:22
Speaker
right So there is enough of such products they that exist. We just have to prioritize and deploy them. Okay. so What are those nine products that you think will come out? side of and but I'm not going to share all of this. But yeah, katha is one. Donation is another thing that I see happening. I see Prasad Dejivvi as also a very very big thing. You're also trying to build charahawah, like, yeah, I've never asked you to do that.
00:34:52
Speaker
Can you do that for me? like so Such things will exist, live streaming exists today. Can you using IoT on your app, press a button and you can actually light a candle physically at a time? ah Okay. Would you do that? but i like ah There's enough gamification already happening, but can you actually build it out of the temple? abna butar bit areravaha but shina be andbuki speaker but but also butel yeah up the up You can listen to it. you actually temple mirror an arms an idea and People have both kinds of things. Right. right church Okay. okay okay ah How is a...
00:35:32
Speaker
Like is is a temple like a company? but What is it like? Who who are you talking to? here Who's getting the donation when somebody is doing that?
Astrology and Business Decisions
00:35:42
Speaker
like So temple trusts, so temples are run by temple trusts. Temple trusts have their own administration. The head priest also is an important part of what an important. that one process right We work closely with trusts or head priests. A lot of temples these days have government bureaucrats as part of the temple trust. So like the local DM will be part of the trust. So we work with any and every stakeholder along this way. Okay, so the donation goes to the temple trust basically. and So donation is actually a legalized ah government mandated process.
00:36:20
Speaker
So donation in India on temples is very regulated. And that's why I think we have we are taking our time to launch it. It goes directly into the background of the temple. And maybe a platform can charge some processing fee for it. But I think it's also a lot of it is built already. ah You can't take foreign donation also from a lot of people. Only two, three temples are allowed to do that. So I think we are also building that product now. OK. OK. OK. ah Like you need to do KYC if someone wants to do a donation. Like that is the challenge here. Something like that. right And you have to be very careful with the temple, ah you know, that how how it will be launched. Like I said, right, like new we are still early in our journey.
00:37:09
Speaker
So donation is a whole loan product that I see. It could be a separate app itself that we will we might launch or we might get very sub-app inside Vama. So right now we're trying to get the right advice on how to launch. Temples have agreed with us to launch donation. ah But I think we are trying to build other thesis around it very well before we get into it. okay no okay no Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, you know, what's like advice that you want to give to bootstrap founders on the things that they can do to continue to build scale, even if the VCs are saying no?
00:37:49
Speaker
Yeah, I've been a bootstrap founder, but grass is always treated on the other side, is what we think. Today today I'm VC and I think the purpose of VC money is a is if you want to build a rocket ship, you want to get on the moon. ah And that's what I wanted to build, right? I was happier, I was happy i was doing a nice business, happy. like If you have built and I think I blame some part of my childhood in security to build large, then the job happened at 197 where I was managing a large team. Then I went to SL where I was managing like a 100 crore a month revenue number. Then you get used to looking at large numbers. Then only that excites you. So I think if you want to build a large business,
00:38:43
Speaker
ah That's when you go get on this. This is ah this is a ride that we have signed up for. right Like, a VC expects minimum 10% month-on-month growth is what a VC will expect. right like ah So and in your traditional business, Bootstrap growing 20% a year also sometimes is good. A VC in 20% a year will have three analysts sitting in my office saying, man, what are you doing? right ah So yeah. yeah
00:39:14
Speaker
Okay, but I mean coming back to what is it that a bootstrap founder can do to continue to build scale and and bo by bootstrapping. So I think look VC is just a form of capital. right There are multiple forms of capital available today. right there are like There is revenue based finance. Five years ago, it wasn't so popular at all. and i So if capitalism means VC is one of the channels, there are enough things happening there. Is the question, how should you do VC if you keep getting rejected? I have got rejected 64 times in one round of money.
00:39:50
Speaker
ah go well ah and I open my LinkedIn, uh, I get mixed. And for example, today, assume that I'm reading a large VC and I make him nicely today. And l lama and I'll get item on LinkedIn, I'll get connected. And you know, I open the message box and I see my messages that I sent to this guy four years ago, three years ago, and I'm like, I think. um i think Yeah, if you chose to be an entrepreneur, you leave shame at your home, you walk into the office, right? We can't, there's no, my rejection hurts, and i and I take rejection first maybe, like a mission, right, to prove to the world, but rejection becomes part of life, right? It's your daily life. It's a daily reminder. You'll get rejected from your top a candidate who's suddenly they trying to join you. Do anything right, like to VC. It's hard. um What's worked for me, ah my experience here is that I've been very fortunate to have a network around. very One thing that has worked for me very well is
00:41:05
Speaker
A network around me has existed that I can reach out to. I wear vulnerability on my sleeve. I don't care if the other person judges me for asking me for help, but I will go ask 20 people about a problem. A team will come back with solutions. like So I've had moments where I said, yeah why am I doing this? I was ah great i was busy i was making more money in the months that I'm trying to raise now. right Like, why am I doing this? like you know you you're You're questioning everything. Because sometimes rejections are hard. And right like and when you get rejected for the wrong reason, like for example, there's a lot of things going on in India, right? do So when I started, I was like, I'm a pedigree founder.
00:41:52
Speaker
ah by idea i am they no offense to idea and what but But at least talk to me before you reject me. At least give us a chance. i ah So those things really start playing on your mind. But right ah but to tell you this, right like I met so many founders on their journeys. An average founder get is like, unless you're really great, right? But rejections have been part of everyone's founder. Like one of my coolest mentors, bureau identity founder Anjan, I remember ah during my fundraising time when I was 60 times rejected, he said, wait if you get to a hundred rejections, then you can think that it's not fair, but a hundred rejections. So ah now I have a rule, a hundred rejections is what I can take.
00:42:36
Speaker
yeah Okay, okay, okay. Is there a, you know, is there like some sort of an astrological prediction which you have about BABA in terms of proof it when the fundraise cycle will turn? Yes, I'll share again, what happened in the right way. So we are fortunate to raise capital at the right time. two thousand twenty 3 when we raised the round with Meeker leading it. That was our make it or break it time. But Acharya Ji had so much confidence for some reason. And and he said, basically, your chart that day. So he said, you're in a great time. So he said, it started by that time.
00:43:21
Speaker
But I have my moments like the wave maker, Icy, I was super nervous. I told them, I called him, I said, listen, I'm super nervous. I don't think, like I was blabbering. My words were not cut out of my mouth. And we have an Icy in 15 minutes an hour. And I literally said, okay, go do a prayer. He did a prayer. ah And then we requested the Icy to come in after 30 minutes. I was freaking out. I was on a family holiday. I remember, I was freaking out. because you know like a video calls if it wouldn't have worked we would have shut we would have had to shut shop it you had no money in the bank
00:44:01
Speaker
I had lent personal money that month to pay salaries, I remember. ah you know ah Yeah, this is this is all part of the journey. yeah thought ah you know you can look We could today look back at it when we have money in our bank. mean yeah So we can laugh. But then you're in it, you're in it, right? like And for me, more than financial, right it's proving, can I build this large business? That I see, like and you and because you're in it, right you just see it. Yeah, you see the opportunity here. Yeah, yeah. yeah know what what is What is your runway now? Yeah, we currently have close to 12 months of runway and ah we just, one of ah one of our investors doubled down on us. So I think our runway now will be close to like 30 odd months.
00:44:54
Speaker
Oh wow, that's amazing. The Waymaker only blew our food. Waymaker and a couple of other angels also came back. So we are we are fortunate to not burn a lot of money. While we burn some money, fundamentally like for us, yeah um then they are and you know this business fundamentally doesn't require a lot to burn. i You are competing with say an Astrotalk and so you will have to spend on a Facebook ad and hope like this performance marketing for aquatic customers. So we are not competing with an Astrotalk. I think Astrology market they occupy
00:45:43
Speaker
whole position today is how I call it. I think we are competing in the temple space. I think we are ah as close to number one as we can.
00:45:53
Speaker
No, but on revenue. On revenue, not on other vanity metrics. But what do you need to do ba performance marketing to acquire customers? 100%. But Akshay performance marketing in our category pays you back. and In the temple space, this pays us back ah in about four months. In about four and a half, five months, you are making free cash flow. right In astrology itself, in about seven, eight months, you have free cash flow. So you need money to sustain yourself for seven, eight months.
00:46:24
Speaker
ah I think we did a mistake at one point of time in our life to Blitzky, to just pull everything right. And that was our worst 4-5 months. What what but was it? Why was it a mistake? like when were ready We were not ready for it. We didn't have the right team. ah And literally, we were under pressure from investors. And this was the golden time, like 2021. We just go get GMV, we will find you. and And then everything changed. And we were like, okay, we have done revenue, the burden, and it's it it just doesn't come naturally to us.
00:47:00
Speaker
it's It's just um also a function of who the founders are. right We feel we can easily build a large scale business by growing 20% month on month. We will have months of seasonality, will whoja said September, October, November. We will grow 50% month on month. But 20%, 25% month on month is great. but oh If you're able to do that, then that that's good, man. so Okay, okay. Here, the product quality as such is not under your control, right? People are directly choosing the Mandir that they want to operate with. so So that is one thing which is possibly a plus point because each person already knows what to expect in terms of product quality because they would choose a specific Mandir.
00:47:52
Speaker
So they choose a pooja. The experience of pooja is controlled by us and the temple joint. The customer doesn't care. yeah butjari inina ba on ali puja very here i am My customer service that day is really difficult. right So we have to manage such things. but um For them, it's the platform of Vama. They trust Vama for pooja. They will judge us on ah how the quantity is there. right ah I don't think that they will.
00:48:27
Speaker
Well, they understand that some things like, for example, we had a temple. I remember when Ram, when there was a getting inaugurated, we had a in Ayodhya. Suddenly that day, Modi Ji's convoy was passing through it, you know. So the pooja could not happen for five hours, right? So we literally reached out to all our customers and said, today, this is what is happening. And we put a new split in. What's Modi Ji's rally passing through that? So what are the things that you are doing for customer experience? yeah So for us, I think we try very hard for you to join our livestream. So I think we do a livestream of them. We believe that builds. I think we send a video to the customer. we will If you have bought Prasad or anything else, we will send you that. We try to do a feedback to you from the customer to get a rating. And we get a rating of about 9.2 on our poo jars today. So that's decent for us.
00:49:25
Speaker
but Like do you have on ground the people or you have a few? Sure. So we have a few on ground people at some place. oh But pujaries are trained so they get tripods and phones. Everything is on a mobile phone. They are trained to do this on their own. But then there are large pujas and we will have a professional from our team there.
00:49:48
Speaker
And what is the incentive for a pujari? Does he also get some share of it? Okay. Which is optional. How does that flow? Which is optional, but mostly all people do it, but he also gets the, from the temple trust, the temple will pay him something. Right. Right. Right. Obviously there will be like some sort of like a salary or something like that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So that Dakshina is what motivates him to provide good service, basically. ah Okay. Okay. Okay. Understood. Understood. Okay.
International Expansion Plans
00:50:24
Speaker
You know, do you have, a and do you see an opportunity for taking this outside India and you know, you might find better
00:50:34
Speaker
revenue realisation outside India than in India. not the this every Every time someone asks me, when are you going outside India? I give them a deed. The ARPUs outside India are very high. very high know um this And I believe that the market... Average revenue per user. Average revenue per user, absolutely, yes. I think also what has happened in the last 10 years is that, Hindus outside India have become more They were the most spiritual. We are waiting. My unfortunate part has been my tech and product have been catch up to my a hustling or my selling. We are fortunate to get Divik who was senior CTO for Vama. He was at Times Internet. He was in Star Astro, who founded the CTO.
00:51:25
Speaker
Like to join us about two months back. So I think with him coming in, I'm very confident that 15 covers should launch in the national, at least for the large Indian diaspora month. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was hearing all the apps in this space, like astrology, the temple apps would yeah they exist. They exist. Some of them exist already. oh I think the. Yeah, lo I think it's just a priority list, right? We want to continue focusing on a few things, right? But yeah, for me, it's been now, now that we have Runway, building things up, ah you know, building it at our own pace, right? We don't want to rush into it. We tried to do it once earlier, it didn't work very well.
00:52:07
Speaker
arms yeah So when you advertise, what is your, what does your ad say? but You said your, your focus is more on temple and Puja. So astrology will say for astrology, right? Like people usually are doing or coming for such platforms for a solution. but and So my ad will say, okay, there's a get Rindmukti Puja done at Rindmukti Temple in the Gen. Click here to no more, you click here, you're taken to the app or a landing page which gives you information about the Puja and then you make a choice of buying it. Okay. So specific Puja is what you advertise with networks that currently currently specific Puja. Yeah, that has ah ah that has a good conversion rate is what you've seen.
00:52:54
Speaker
yeah oh yeah And what kind of repeat rates do you see? Like once somebody buys something, once like... So astrology is more sticky today as compared to Puja. Puja also if you have done a Puja for a certain purpose, you will read for some time right before you come back. But I think we see v see repeat rates of... So Puja unfortunately for us is a new product in only nine months. so i don't have more yeah not but ah yeah But we see most of our users coming back at least twice in those nine months. hope yeah Okay. So, you know, what are your plans to monetize existing user base more like cross-sale or whatever? like I think we are doing it already a very higher. So, actually we views we have a number that's also a transaction by now.
00:53:43
Speaker
I'm not sure if other people will get it. but but So for we so you know for me, every internet business is based on commerce, content, and community. like somebody Someone will start some content or community and come to commerce. I had such little money in the starting that we only could do commerce. Like literally, I had a lot of money from the bank.
00:54:05
Speaker
Yeah, you know, we literally the start we that's that's that's how we have functioned, right? So, our down to of 10 to 15 percent, right? On what days we hit 22 percent, right? So, okay we see those numbers as ah numbers for us here. then i already i to now go I want to try it now a little back and say, okay, can I give more content to this custom? that ah So i'm I'm on the opposite end of the subject spectrum where my monetization are very high. Increase the DAO right now. okay Yeah, increase the DAO ad repeatability, build such code. At a unit economic level, things work very well. Some vanity metrics you also have to create.
00:54:50
Speaker
What are the reasons for people to come on the app again when when they're not transacting for Apuja? So there hasn't been anything till 1st of April. You could come to read your horoscope. But now you we have about 8 temples that you can virtually do a walkthrough in the Darshan. It's an immersive experience. You can walk through the temples, you can do some micro transactions, you can do gamification. We have a virtual Japmala, where you can do a virtual Japmala, right? Like people can do Jap, right? You can come see livestream. You can see a poo job. You can see a livestream. These livestreams are free. These livestreams are free, absolutely. Okay, okay, okay. And the reason is to make it free is that some of them will want to give a Dakshina or something during the livestream. Or livestream-based commerce. Correct, livestream-based commerce.
00:55:38
Speaker
On the fundraising part, we did do a fair amount of discussion where you spoke of rejections. But, you know, the successful, the the conversions which happened, you said angels, some angels have back to you and also yeah ah wave maker bloom and also, you know, what is what is it that led to this success? ah You know, is there a
00:56:05
Speaker
I'll share my journey right away in capital. So the first round we raised the friends and family. and Within four hours of me sending the bitch to the first micro VC, we had a term sheet in like eight hours. Crazy. Crazy, right? And then you're like like, wow, you're right. And then you feel like maybe we are that good. you know so what's a yeah and i do There's a fund called 0.1 Capital came in, large angel, also came in, one of the prolific angel investors in India. we had him on sho thumb pay Lot of people, right? Money raised, all of them. Then comes the seed round, right?
00:56:51
Speaker
And that's a rejection shock. One question, yeah these angels who came in, so you pitched to a micro VC, and then they would have also introduced other angels to the deals. Like, they would have got it. Yeah, micro VCs. So micro VC introduced us. Also, it was my own personal network. So Akshay, I was an angel investor before I was a faffing investor. Because I was generating free cash flow in the previous business, and but what will I do with it? So I started investing. And I wanted to be part of the ecosystem. right um Then did the seed round. While the rejections were there, but we but I think we got one of the best angel rounds of the country at that point. We had people like Kunal Shah. We had Varun from Mama. We had Arjun Vaidya. We had Rohan and Swati from Kashkuru. I had Humang from Cardek. You name an internet entrepreneur, and he's on my cat. And like I built that. And it is also a function of I wanted to learn from these guys.
00:57:50
Speaker
I got Harid Nagpal, who was the guy that did it for Hutch to Vodafone merger. He started up as CEO. I'm his first angel investment in life. I pitched to him and he said, look, I know this business because this is telecom vast. I've all my life. at church church ah you know So so such so you know we got a bunch of really, really cool engines. We got a hardware accelerator or a hardware fund to come in. At that point, we got Super Morpheus. Some really great Indian names to come be part of us. Then we got Arjun Vethya. For me, the journey of raising capital made me realize that it is so important to get the right name. There was a time that Arjun literally took me to class and said, your social media is horrible.
00:58:39
Speaker
and We'll fix it together. you know ah And I'm not a social media person. I thought my social media was very good. And Arjun literally spent a month with me to fix it. And our social media today is, I believe it's it's it's one of the best in the category. But literally Arjun was my social media manager for a month. like like it be it is his like you only who Graciousness to do it, right? Like I've sat with such founders and you know, like I told you that I have this nature of being like I can really pile on to you if I want your help. I can break you, bug you. The people have really helped. We got Sairi from Shiro's, we got Renu Sati from ATM. I wanted to build a community and I spent time with Sairi who built India's largest women community. So the people that I could go back and then I'll tell you Akshay, we got the Gokhunkwai family. Gokhunkwai family is Philippines largest business group.
00:59:40
Speaker
They invest in social life commerce. I was talking to Agora's founder about us. Agora is a large view IP platform, world's largest view IP platform. I'm not wrong. oh And you know he connected me to Liza. Liza invested in us. Then Liza introduced us to WaveMaker because she's an LPO WaveMaker. so good And, you know, basic, basic things that like sending your updates on time and having an ask, like usually every update I send, I said, okay, I have this ask, can you please introduce me to some VCs in this specific region, et cetera, right? Like, oh and Bloom found this file, right? Like, I've chased them for a very long time and to put in a file from the founders file as well, right? Because they have done similar bets in the space, ah but yeah.
01:00:30
Speaker
Okay, so the I mean one key insight is over index on ranges like they they can really especially at the early stage. Yeah. Yeah, man. If you can make a real super helpful, um you know and and also like because they have been in every problem that you think. You think that it's only happening with you. And I met Varun of Mamar at a social place. And I said, yes, I had this. And he told me a simple one line of something.
01:01:03
Speaker
And I just increased my runway by one month. And it was like and I looking at it and thinking, why did I not think of this yet? you know ah so the and you think that you know the Because they they are in the ecosystem much senior than us, they know a lot of problems. That's been super helpful. And what's the best way to reach out to these super engines? yet cold email hustle works as well as vomit works. For me, it's exactly 50-50. I have reached out cold email a lot of it. right like And even rejections were introduced me. I pitched to Sequoia, I remember.
01:01:44
Speaker
um And I think while they did not invest in us at that time because they had Sriman there in their portfolio, they introduced us to their scouts program. They had a scout program. And Uman is a Sequoia scout which was to invest in us. Then because Uman became an angel, he got another micro VC on the file. like It's just those just keep opening, but you also have to keep them updated exactly about what's happening, what help do you need. They get 50 emails a day. You know great ah need to build some kind of app over them to be able to bought them ah to be able to build something with them.
01:02:16
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Okay. Fascinating. Okay. Tell me also about, you know, you have a very unique founding team where two of you are like real corporate guys. And the third one is ah like from a completely different background. How do you make that founder relationship work out? Yeah, I think we have been, we have not been the best of friends, but we know each other for 15 years. ah
01:02:47
Speaker
Also, the three of us are in a very similar TH bracket. yeah I think we're like I'm 42, Mans was 42. That is about 39. So I think the the biggest thing that joins us at the hip is our desire to make this Bama a large. oh that aspiration, ki manual la it yeah yeah and yeah line know on the but um rosa water like and I am i'm a little as assertive, aggressive. ah So I will have my way or I will talk to you right and I will show my displeasure very often. But it is because of work. right i We have some rituals. right Like every Tuesday, we do a meeting. ah If you're late by two minutes to the meeting, you pay 10,000 rupees fine, where did it come from?
01:03:38
Speaker
yeah i ah good if if If you're not, if you're traveling and your good video is not like you have to give this meeting the meeting. The meeting starts with literally what will be discussed stays in this room. When we go out of the room, like it's literally like a confidentiality kind of thing. that you i yeah Nothing is personal. Then we are literally like lawyers in the room. and like We are all fighting for our own points. But all of us know what's best for Vama. And we try to have a social, like the meeting will end and we try to have
01:04:15
Speaker
a drink of Chai, Chai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai Pichai This is supposed to be fun also, right? If it's not fun, then why why we doing it right? So yeah, so I think the diverse backgrounds.
01:04:51
Speaker
really help. There are some things that look, my thoughts is because I'm in the ecosystem, I will say the com is or no market it may ah yeah this is new flavour of season. You should do this. And then a strategy will say you every time go to investor, meet an investor and come back and change the company direction. So it's very diverse, right? like And the diverse opinion really helps because they see the problem the same problem by three different If there is vulnerability there is trust, in so I think co-founders can't exist without vulnerability in trust. That magic cannot happen. ah ah if that ah who hundred And it is zero or one. right like If it is anything in the middle, it doesn't work. How do you decide something like who is the CEO? Is that a decision which is taken? or
01:05:46
Speaker
I think the guy who's responsible for cash flow of any company will become the CEO by default. ah Because you are deciding how this company will work. That's the biggest thing that will make this decision. And then there is an alpha in the room always. right So the alpha in the room is always the guy who's... So if you have the alpha in the room, it is your job to go get cash flow. right ah So yeah. so Who is the CEO? I'm the CEO. And what is Himanshu's role? So I understand what is the strategy's role, of course. Himanshu is man responsible for operations and product. He runs the office for the company. Content, HR, finance, also the both.
01:06:33
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So operations here would be like your, you have on payroll astrologers who are doing the consults or the could be requirements which are coming in, managing all of that. Absolutely. Then, you know, every early stage company, especially like ours, which is doing Astrology and Punjab, these are literally two so two companies, right? Like here running as well. Yes. There is a lot of office work. There is a lot of office work. And it's good to have Astrology operations and product with one person because essentially early stage product is all about automatic operations, right?
01:07:15
Speaker
i think leastage found as a product manager like because that um many did like that birthday and yeah and ah yeah yeah Have you hired the couple consultants we will a couple couple of consultants? of consultants on product. I haven't been able to find the right guy yet for product. But looking, anyone who's a head of product would like to apply to Vama, please, please apply. I think at least Cool. stage founders are So let's product managers. wrap up with, you know, do you have any words of wisdom for the youngsters who are listening to this episode?
01:07:55
Speaker
I think the biggest thing my learning ah always dreamed really high. If you were to meet my school friends up here, you will die laughing. ah i'm a I'm an almost college dropout, ah horrible student in school. ah I was laid off in 2007 or 2008 in my first job, ah then 197. And then light change. So I think never to dream less. And I think just to back yourself, ah take more risks. Life's too short to not take these risks. right like I was very happy in my bootstrap environment. It just doesn't challenge me. right like This is a huge gamble that I'm playing. And I enjoy it. like As a person, I've evolved who I am in the last three years.
01:08:43
Speaker
i And two things that I that i was relieved by. right like One is that your network is your net. It's very important. like Build those relationships. If you're in school, you're in college, the guy sitting next to you in college could become a junior one pounder. Make sure that I feel really bad. i I know a lot of people from my school have done very well. Rushdie Rover is one of them. He doesn't know me. like because I wasn't ever friendly to the school or a Manish Paul. He was a famous actor.
01:09:14
Speaker
like so I just make sure that you make friends, or at least you know those guys when you call them up. That network will really help. And I genuinely believe in Hustle, man. like When I mean Hustle, I mean just trying it all out. right and like The startup ecosystem is really good in India today. It genuinely helps you if you embrace it enough. right like People will come out of the good work to come and help you, man. I'm going to use an example of this. But when it's your chance to help people, you should be the also the first one to like it's a subtle it doesn't stop. True, true, true, true. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time manu. Thanks Akshay with pleasure.