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Amit Mehta's (Asha Ventures) Path to Impactful Investing
12 Plays4 days ago
In this episode, Amit Mehta, Managing Partner at Asha Ventures, a venture capital and private equity firm highlights key lessons from his successful investments and the evolving Indian VC landscape. He discusses Asha Ventures' focus on sustainability, healthcare, and inclusion in its investment strategy, as well as the importance of governance and vision in selecting impactful startups. Tune in to explore Amit's insights on building scalable businesses that create positive change.
Akshay Datt, a serial entrepreneur having run ventures in Employability Training and hiring, is the host of "The Spotlight", presented by the Founder Thesis podcast. He has interviewed 500+ founders to date.
Connect:
Amit Mehta: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amit-mehta-6b90b92/
Akshay Datt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akshay-datt/
Founder Thesis: www.founderthesis.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Amit Mehta and Asha Ventures
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, this is Amit Mehta here, our managing partner at Asha Ventures. Asha Ventures is an early growth stage investor investing across themes of sustainability, healthcare and inclusion. ah Pleasure to be on the show.
00:00:26
Speaker
Amit, what made you an investment banker slash investors? you know what Was there something like, you know, can you look back and connect the dots on how you ended up becoming an investment banker? Would the right term for you be investment banker? No, it's investor. There's a lot of difference between investment banker and investor.
00:00:53
Speaker
They are on opposite sides of the table. Okay. And very clearly i ah wanted to be on this side of the table. i And to be honest, yeah ah what made me become an investor,
00:01:09
Speaker
ah you know, i a couple of things. One is that I always loved learning ah more about industries, the way companies bridge it and like that. So just learning about new sectors and new industries and new companies and listening to the stories of the entrepreneurs and on how they approached the same problem from very different point of views.
00:01:36
Speaker
and So but I would kind of like...
Amit's Journey from Banking to Investing
00:01:40
Speaker
you started your journey uh in the investment space at the time when you started you already had this clarity or it just so happened that you got an offer and you enjoyed that work and later on you realized that yeah okay this is why i enjoy this work yeah so so interesting question i think the uh The pivotal moment was so in IME, there was a course on equity research.
00:02:12
Speaker
You did your MBA from IME, that was? Yes. So everyone was required to make a research report on a company of their choice. ah And I, of course, as part of that course, made that report.
00:02:29
Speaker
And I...
00:02:31
Speaker
While making that report, really enjoyed the process. oh Thought like the one who was um looking clearly to sort of buy and and A, understand the industry and B, buy the stock.
00:02:47
Speaker
Of course, my father himself is the avid investor the stock market. So I was always aware of it, but the process of research was something that that core ah taught me at IME and that was my introduction to the ro understanding the industry, industry industry structures, companies, business models, and and and and ultimately the
00:03:14
Speaker
ah buying or selling valuation kind of a thing. It was an interrupting of valuation in Dublin. Did you have what role models and idols that you were inspired by, like, say, Warren Buffett?
00:03:27
Speaker
You know, a number of investors have told me their role model was Richard Gere in Pretty Woman. yeah ah No, i said to to to be honest, no world role models. now Over a period of time, you figure it out that there is no possible truth.
00:03:45
Speaker
so There is no one strategy you that works. theres ah You have to change with time and you have to take decisions, the best decisions with the will available information at a given point in time.
00:03:58
Speaker
So, that I mean, nothing, there's not one rule that works all the time. but The nature of investments you've been doing have also been changing over time. So in IMA, it was, I assume, a publicly listed equity that you had researched. Today, you're very squarely in private markets. Tell me that journey.
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah.
Mutual Fund Industry Insights vs. Private Equity
00:04:20
Speaker
So again, a very interesting journey. I actually started my investing career at IJSA Prudential Mitchell Fund, um and which today and even at that time, about now about 17 years back, 16 years back, ah was also the market leader at that time.
00:04:40
Speaker
And, you know, I spent a good job two years at IJSA Mitchell Fund. ah ah researching various sectors. You were an analyst? I was an analyst then. Okay.
00:04:53
Speaker
ah You know, its it was a phenomenal stint there because of the variety of sectors and companies that you get to see ah in the public market. And, you know, I think it provides you access to the best oh best of entrepreneurs, best of research and all of that.
00:05:13
Speaker
ah yeah So so so i I totally enjoyed that strength in terms of learning curve. But like I fairly quickly sort of realized that, um ah you know, mutual fund business over a period of time will turn into an underweight, overweight game.
00:05:30
Speaker
ah You know, mutual fund and value. Yeah, mutual funds are evaluated based on their performance relative to a benchmark. Right. So, uh, yes, absolutely. So whether you have outperformed or underperformed, uh, the, the Nifty 50 is, is how you are measured.
00:05:48
Speaker
ah So it doesn't matter um how what you do in absolute terms. What matters is how you do in relative terms. ah and one And the implication of that is, the you know, the fund manager is usually thinking in terms of overweight, underweight with respect to the nifty stocks, right?
00:06:07
Speaker
So if reliance is 10% of nifty, you know, the call that fund manager would usually take is whether I should be 8% or 12% in right? he He or she is never going to take the call that Act 2 will be zero in Reliance.
00:06:22
Speaker
That is a very, very big call in the mutual fund industry, right? um And to be honest, I wasn't interested in researching a large cap stock like Reliance or HDFC or anything else.
00:06:34
Speaker
I mean, these are great companies, market leaders, so and amazing tool. But there's only so much value at that I can do in terms of researching these stocks. And it's no fun ah to ah keep doing underweight, overweight all your life. but It's something that didn't sound interesting to me.
00:06:53
Speaker
i wasn' much I want to ask a little bit of a question here. So one, of course, is like you have the index funds which are exactly tracking the index.
00:07:04
Speaker
That is a separate dimension. But you're saying even in general equity funds, they would generally try and stick to the nifty 50. ah They would rarely go beyond that unless it's like, say, a mid cap, small cap fund or something like that.
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah. So every fund in the mutual fund industry is required to have a bench. Yes. that's ah That's a regulatory requirement. Now, you can choose your benchmark.
00:07:31
Speaker
and and And for a large cap stock, it can be Nifty 50 or Nifty 100, whatever you want. to For a mid cap stock, it can be the mid cap. Similarly, for the spawn cap.
00:07:42
Speaker
But it has to be linked to a benchmark. So, whether it is... You don't have to copy the stocks in the benchmark to beat it, right? you You could...
00:07:53
Speaker
take a contrarian view and you know the punishment for taking a contrarian view is very very harsh in the uh and and the payoffs are not that side is not that much so the the downside is that the manager is going to get fired
00:08:15
Speaker
So, and upside is not like, you get a little bit of a bonus or something, but yeah if you screw it up, then
Private Equity Incentives and Amit's Career Shift
00:08:24
Speaker
you go, okay, interesting.
00:08:26
Speaker
Interesting how. and And that's the difference, right? In in in in the private equity industry, the upside is the cashy. ah ah So, so so it's it's a risk worth taking.
00:08:37
Speaker
ah and And that's, that's it it's basically how your incentives are. incentive that ah may define right but very quickly could you explain this carry upside concept to our listeners who ah mean understand how private equity incentivizes the fund managers sure it's it's a very simple structure you uh you you sort of, endic you you agree with the rate of return with your investors, let's say 10%, and if you make anything above that rate of return, um you share the upside profits.
00:09:16
Speaker
That is usually in the 80-20 ratio, so if you make anything above 10%, you share the profits in the ratio of 80-20, when you're going to demand. You share profit after 10%, so if you made 20%,
00:09:30
Speaker
then the first 10% is your hurdle rate. The next 10% out of that, you will get 2%. That's what you're saying. You're now getting into technicalities. So that's called catch up.
00:09:43
Speaker
And yeah if you make more than 10%, you can... get the 2% of your 2% that is your 20% of 10% after 10%. So if you make 12%, 10% will go to the investor and 2% will go to the online.
00:10:02
Speaker
Okay. Got it. Okay. Okay. Understood. Got it. So that hurdle rate has to be crossed. Once you cross it, then you're entitled to 40% of the entire profit. Entire thing. Absolutely. Okay.
00:10:13
Speaker
Okay. Okay. And plus there is a management fees also, which is typically charged, right? Yeah. Which is like a one or two percent. Ah, right, right. Okay.
00:10:24
Speaker
Okay. Got it. Got it. Right. So, yeah. So, let's come back. You did not want to play the underweight-overweight game. ah So... and but and and And that's that's what drove me to me move to the private equity industry.
00:10:39
Speaker
um I initially worked in an venture capital fund called Mayfield, then moved to more traditional private equity fund called Motilhanoos Fund private equity.
00:10:51
Speaker
um Moteelah Roswal has done phenomenally well in terms of their fund performance, etc. I would say um i I learned the basics of analyzing the companies, etc.
00:11:07
Speaker
And then I had a long since that I had a priority where I was um I was the founding member of a Private Equity Desk. ah ah We had an amazing run there.
00:11:20
Speaker
I invested in a bunch of companies across sectors. um You know, just to give you some examples, I was the first thing first investor in in a company called Cokta Finance, ah which had follow-on rounds from Marvel Stanley, Greener, and we finally exited by selling multiples. We made over 10x in that process.
00:11:41
Speaker
I was invested in Picker Technologies, which is them knowledge a low-estakes SaaS company. ah We sold that company in a strategic sale to Shiprocket. um Made more than ah nearly for it in that process in a nine-month time frame.
00:11:58
Speaker
Invested in Nazara Technologies, which is a gaming company, to the company Public. You know, bunch of other the companies across sectors.
00:12:08
Speaker
So but that's where I sort of ah came into my own, so to say, ah from from from the learning phase to actually playing your own game. ah and And then, you know, down to the real buff, Patti and Pramod and Bikram who were running ATA Ventures at that time, Start ATA Ventures.
00:12:36
Speaker
And um and and You know, and ah we've now raised a $100 million dollars fund. up We've already done three investments out of that.
00:12:48
Speaker
And like I said, you know, we invest in an early growth stage to $10 million ticket finance across themes of sustainability, healthcare and industry.
00:12:59
Speaker
Okay.
Evolution of Indian Private Equity and Venture Capital
00:13:00
Speaker
ah Before we go deeper into us, Anand, You know, I used to think that this whole PEVC industry ah came from the West to India, but you worked in these homegrown PEVC funds.
00:13:14
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about the Indian history of PEVC. Like, which was the first PE fund in India that was like homegrown PE fund, not from outside? Yeah. ah How is an Indian PE looking at investment opportunities? How is that different from the way ah companies from the West, ah the p the the big PE firms, how they look at investment opportunities and
00:13:38
Speaker
So, the so shock show interestingly, ah you know, the Indian PVC system is fairly old and I am now forgetting the name, but ah I say say venture started oh as an arm of I say say bank, yet even today is an um arm of I say bank, but it had some other name and was housed within the I say bank, even when it wasn't a bank, it converted into bank in 1999.
00:14:09
Speaker
So even when it wasn't a bank, there was a carve out which was sort of investing into small businesses. This was early 93, 94 kind of a time period.
00:14:24
Speaker
okay and and And that was the starting point of ICF Venture. Of course, it sort of hiked off and you know became ICF Venture and we all know about it.
00:14:35
Speaker
ah but But that's how old the Indian side of the of the of the venture capital of the industry is. And this would be and like money from foreign investors?
00:14:48
Speaker
No, this all money from i think Indian No, Indian and Janai came in far later. It was all institutional money ah ah coming from...
00:15:01
Speaker
um you know, I take the day in, you know, equivalent organizations. Okay, okay. BFSIA companies from their balance sheet, yeah this was like a diversification for them.
00:15:13
Speaker
Okay. Yes. Okay. So, so that's how old it is. And then of course, sometime in 1999 or around that, um some of the very early ah funds like Chris Capital, Westbridge, even ILFS started around that time, I think.
00:15:31
Speaker
ah um You know, all of them sort of gave picture and then ah You know, they made a lot of money. The 2004 to 2007 bull run, you know. um And this was private investments or listed? Everything private, yeah. okay Okay. So from 99 onwards, there were quite a few ah VC funds which were investing, ah you know. and um And this was like the the Western model, like tech companies, like,
00:16:05
Speaker
yes it company Yes. So, so for during the 99 to 2002, of course, ah you know, the tech boom, everyone thought, oh ah you know, similar boom will happen in India.
00:16:17
Speaker
So we invested in a bunch of companies at that time. Yeah. And companies at that time in India. Of course, the exit market wasn't as hot as it was in the US.
00:16:31
Speaker
So in the US, between 1999 to 2002, a lot of funds made a lot of money ah selling their companies to IPO and all of that. ah in In India, of course, that boom.
00:16:42
Speaker
was there but probably not as strong and of course post 2002 to 2004 there was a period of recession depression or do you call it ah and and and a lot of companies a lot of VC funds at that time sort of started making a pivot to investing in sort of over school businesses also so for example someone like a Crest Capital which was pure VC investor sort of made that shift to investing in ah more traditional businesses and and did it very, very successfully.
00:17:18
Speaker
What would be some examples of kind of businesses that... So, for example, you Shriram Transport Finance was one of the companies which they invested very, you know, very, very traditional business.
00:17:30
Speaker
ah I think they were invested in Axel Bank also, even at that. Okay. You know, it wasn't Axel at that time, it was UTI Bank. Yes, right.
00:17:42
Speaker
so so So they made those investments and those traditional businesses did very well. and And that was still about 2007. and when the It all did it alled very well.
00:17:52
Speaker
And then, ah you know, all of this was sort of going on somewhere around, I think. And you're saying INFS was also doing private equity. I thought INFS was a lender.
00:18:04
Speaker
No, it had a small, um I mean, one of the oldest ones, but of course that also is lower now. Right. Yeah. And then I think somewhere around 2005, 2006. And this is still institutional money, which is coming into these fronts.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, it was institutional money. I think the domestic H&I money sort of started coming into ah the market. I mean, of course, MotiLal raised the first one in 2005.
00:18:35
Speaker
which was all purely H&I money. Okay, because Motilal has that ah DNA of H&I investing. Yes. They would have the relationships because the broking business.
00:18:48
Speaker
Because of the brokering business, there was a bit to raise money. In fact, around 2005-2006, quite a few domestic property actors opened their DER. So for example, JM also has a the business ah which started around the 10th, 2006.
00:19:12
Speaker
ah So so so for domestic money sort of started coming in trickles from 2006 to 11, 12, 13. ah lament will thirty And um then, you know, once there was some money ah that Agenites were seeing coming back, it it started ah i flowing in on ah a bit more. ah And then I think somewhere in 1920, 21, 21,
00:19:39
Speaker
you want ah There was quite a bit of money ah that Etteni had made. Well, you know, all these entrepreneurs who started in 2011-20 also had seen a round of exits and all of that money was flowing back into the ecosystem.
00:19:57
Speaker
And Etteni and even the investing institution became very important part of the goal for the EEC
Growth in Indian PE/VC through Exits
00:20:06
Speaker
funds. ah for for ah e partss yeah And LP, just for our listeners, is limited partners, which is the yeah the people who are giving money to that fund manager to invest in private equity. Okay. Okay.
00:20:20
Speaker
What kind of exits were there? Like you said, they saw exits in the up to like 2011, 12, and then more people started coming in. What, like public listing kind of exits? Yes.
00:20:31
Speaker
Yes. Yes, the publicist thing nor or, ah you know, the larger funds, for example, um ah Blackstone and Kindle and Hardtakes and Kigal of the World were already there.
00:20:45
Speaker
in in yeah yeah Any examples you remember from those early exits? I'm sure being a part of the industry, you would have been following every exit. Sure. So, I mean, you know,
00:20:58
Speaker
Moodi Laad, we had invested in a bunch of companies from 2005 to 2008. And and all all of those companies started seeing it from 2011 to 2014. And some of the prominent names there were something like an EU bank.
00:21:14
Speaker
ah which at that time was an NBFC. ah um We started, we invested in every year, I mean, we would make money on it.
00:21:31
Speaker
Ultimately, we ended up making a lot of money. but Um, you know, those were very, very large exits, uh, you know, making the kind of money insane amount of money. Uh, so, you know, similar trend was seen at Ross in it.
00:21:48
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Okay. Does the, you know, for VC, there's that power law, which according to which, like you want one big investment to be successful and it'll pay up for all your sins. Like it'll wash away all the sins of bad investments that you've made.
00:22:04
Speaker
Does that apply to PE also? Like what is the difference between VC and PEP? Yeah, yeah. No, so I think the VC part of the industry relies far more on the power law and it's just because of the state that we invest.
00:22:19
Speaker
They would typically come in at idea stage, maybe a couple of, um maybe some product market fate, maybe some revenue traction each, you know, by different stages. ah but the But the probability of failure continues to remain high in VC investing.
00:22:34
Speaker
And therefore, a most VC funds would sort of spread their bets. ah You know, maybe invest in 25, 30, 40 companies in any given fund and not invest all their allocation to the company in one goal. They would typically charge it over three to four rounds.
00:22:52
Speaker
Right. ah So that's how we see the risk, just to just to make sure that failures can be hedged in some ways. As a result, a PE fund will invest in, you know, maybe 8 to 12, 13 companies ah in in any given fund.
00:23:10
Speaker
So to the Those are much more concentrated and larger bets. i And they typically are done at a stage in company life where the product market fit is there. There's revenue, traction very clearly.
00:23:26
Speaker
Unit economics is set. ah and And all that is required is capital for growth. You're not providing capital for burn, right? Or burn, yeah, maybe a bit.
00:23:39
Speaker
but you're not providing capital to figure out the business model. I think that's the difference. So, so we should have far more tolerance for ah but word uncertainty, right?
00:23:51
Speaker
ah You may be able to figure out the business model. You may not be able to, and it may all go down the drain. That's fine with it. Unlike that, we is typically looking for providing only good capital and not capital for figuring out the Okay.
00:24:09
Speaker
What did you learn at Motilal or Swaj?
00:24:13
Speaker
And share with me some bad decisions also that you made over there because I feel we learn best from bad calls, right? Yeah. So at Motilal, I wasn't a decision maker.
00:24:26
Speaker
I was a mid-level guy, helping people make decisions, right? But I did learn... A lot about, um you know, diligence in company. I think we are very, very rigorous in our approach.
00:24:42
Speaker
Being big number oriented, you know, developing an almost for a quality of promoters. um sort of looking for a couple of things, you know, what are the key things that you should look for and sort of things that I learned. and yeah yeah Can you share some, like, you know, for example, any rule of thumb numbers that you look at or how do you identify quality of promoters? Like how do you really screen for good promoters?
00:25:13
Speaker
You know, what are the red flags? Sure. So, ah you know, one of the things that I learned was, you know, big focus on governance. ah Never compromise on it.
00:25:25
Speaker
ah um You know, in India, ah
00:25:31
Speaker
You know, people can do a lot of things. oh But, um you know, I mean, as an investor, you're managing third-party money.
00:25:42
Speaker
ah You have to be absolutely focused on um making sure that people you partner with are completely clean and about the deal. That's one very important thing that ah The other thing is that, ah you know, entrepreneurs should have a couple of qualities, right? I mean, ah they should be very, you know, they should, they, I'm very frugal in their mindset, you know. ah
00:26:17
Speaker
That is the first thing for survival, ah right? If you are frugal, if you're not, not constantly burning without knowing where the burn is going, ah it it ensures that you have a long life to figure out things.
00:26:32
Speaker
ah You know, there can be ups and downs in any business at any stage. But if you are frugal in your mindset, you will survive through those ups and downs.
00:26:43
Speaker
And if you survive, you will ultimately succeed. There's Survival is the way to succeed. So i shoot through that thing. Then, you know, the the founder's ah vision in terms of what's the game that he wants to play, right? People who are building for long People who have ambition to scale ah way beyond what is immediately visible are the long-term fundals you've done. And and it's it's those people who have vision, ambition,
00:27:22
Speaker
ah they are the sort of fundals that you want
00:27:28
Speaker
you know they can they can see what you can't even imagine and and and that's what we are looking for in okay fascinating okay and and any kind of rule of thumb but with respect to numbers like what what do you look for is there some sort of like some issues that matter yeah Yeah, and I mean, like I said, you know, and ah there are no universal rules, but very clearly you have have a positive unit economics, you know, has to make money on every sale, every transaction. What does this term make money mean? Because, you know, people describe it in a way that suits them and different founders would claim to be making money. But ah what what are the different ways in which you measure that whether a business is making money?
00:28:19
Speaker
Yeah. that You know, i mean these are all I mean, there are multiple fancy terms. What matters is cash. ah So, you know, on a cash basis, you should make very simple.
00:28:34
Speaker
And the other aspect is... But at early gross stage, companies are not making money, right? So, what is that? Yeah. So, on an overall basis, yes, you may not be making money.
00:28:45
Speaker
But if I sell anything, if I do a transaction, I sell a book, on that transaction, am I making money or not? Right? So, you know, I buy something.
00:28:57
Speaker
The selling price minus the cost of goods sold, your bill of materials. Yeah. okay okay okay you know to ah apply all variable cost to it and you and are you making money if you are making money out of that transaction then you should have something left to two pay for your fixed cost and and and if you sell enough you will be able to cover your fixed cost okay got it okay i understood okay and any other numbers that you look at
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, capital efficiency is another important aspect. You know, the business, if it takes 100 crores to two sales worth, let's say five crores, not worth it. yeah hook like
00:29:47
Speaker
Other thing is ah the working capital intensity of the business. if you will If your money constantly remains stuck either in receivables or inventory, oh yeah you're not getting cash for your good, for the business and cash is what matters, not derpy and ah Okay.
00:30:08
Speaker
Okay. These are like historical, that like the capital efficiency and ah working capital intensity would be historically. Yeah. How much capital did they need to reach the current sales? That's what you would be looking. Okay.
00:30:22
Speaker
Got it. Got it. Okay. Understood. And any learnings from the IFL a stint? Yeah, I mean, on similar lines, of course, so ah you know, like I said, you know, Matilar was a learning ground for me.
00:30:37
Speaker
And then I think it was where I played based on those learning. um so So got to what partner with some amazing entrepreneurs ah and who did exceptionally well.
00:30:49
Speaker
ah um You know, I gave you couple of examples like bigger technologies. Amazing set of founders had a vision for the industry in which they were operating. HVC was amazingly well, were supremely capital efficient ah and and profitable business model.
00:31:12
Speaker
ah They were the second largest player and in an industry consolidation. we sold it to ship rocket and at that time the founders demonstrated a very pragmatic approach to decision making um ah you know at a very young age I mean they were all in their 20s so then you know those were amazing experience any bad calls you took because now you're taking calls also right
00:31:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, I i i i mean, I cannot have any write-offs. So in that sense, no bad. Okay, okay.
00:31:57
Speaker
Mentally, you might have like said to yourself that no, this was not like i made a wrong decision. here Maybe you would have questioned and improved your decision-making frameworks as well. Yeah, of course, with with every investment, even with the investment which have done well, you ah there are certain things that you can improve on.
00:32:16
Speaker
and And with every investment, you sort of have that process of learning. So it's not about, you know, the call will be right or wrong. It's about what is it that you have done better ah in the next investment, in the next investment.
00:32:32
Speaker
And at that is an ongoing business. ah do Do you have any decision-making frameworks which you developed over the years and in terms of how you make decisions? It could be not necessarily purely an investment decision, but just in terms of how you think about things.
00:32:49
Speaker
You know, I could never become a consultant simply because I could never come up with framework. yeah i i i I wish I could come up with some nice fancy frameworks that I could show on a slide and make some money out of it.
00:33:05
Speaker
ah But unfortunately, you and no I don't have any such frameworks. There are some basic things like, you know, the execution focus of entrepreneur, the frugality with which he operates, ah you know, the the working capital intensity of the business, the unit economics, the capital efficiency, stuff like that, the the vision of the entrepreneur.
00:33:27
Speaker
they All of those matters. But is there a one-size-fits-all framework? Unfortunately, no. I'm sorry to take that. Okay.
Asha Ventures' Impactful Investment Philosophy
00:33:38
Speaker
okay okay good So, now tell me about Asha Ventures. You ah must have spotted like a gap in the market ah where you thought that Asha Ventures should fill that gap. but What was the gap you spotted? Like, you know, what is the reason for Asha Ventures to exist?
00:33:59
Speaker
So, uh, uh, you know, uh, When ven you make an investment, it has an impact on the way society shapes up, right? Every investment that you make.
00:34:13
Speaker
It in some ways influences the way we i' be as a nation and IT sort of shape up. And I sort of realized that during my extended I feel that, ah you know, i by i making these investments in some ways, we are influencing the way nation and our society shapes up.
00:34:34
Speaker
and And that made me conscious and responsible. um And also ah sort of ah led me to think that why should we...
00:34:45
Speaker
consciously make an effort to invest in companies which will do good to us had the as a society. ah And, ah you know, the amount of change that a private of it making right in price can be is significantly high than anything that a government can do, ah charity can do.
00:35:14
Speaker
you know, anything that is not scalable. In India, you know, um we are 140 crore people. ah If you do not make a scalable business, this ah which touches lives of, let's say, a crore people, and you've hardly made any. they So my thought process always was that in India, if you want to change or impact the way the nation is,
00:35:41
Speaker
then you have to invest in companies which can achieve scale and which are doing good for the nation. And that is where we, be you know, this this mindset of ah investing in companies which are ah profitable, which are scalable in their business model and are doing good.
00:36:09
Speaker
ah came into um and the and at ASHA our intent is to invest in companies which are doing good while doing commercially well.
00:36:24
Speaker
So that's the objective and I'll give you a couple of examples. and i You know, the the we early investors in Waspoo housing, which is a company focused on providing affordable housing finance.
00:36:38
Speaker
Right. So think about... This is an NDRC. It's an NBSC. ah So think about maids and drivers and you know all of that. ah They have income.
00:36:50
Speaker
That income ah may not be documented. ah and And they want access to finance for buying your house. up Way back in 2014-15 when we made this investment, search world were not getting access to finance na and we invested in this company oh which ah was focused on this segment.
00:37:16
Speaker
and And today, ah you know, 10 years later, ah this company has had more than two lakh people ah fulfill ah their dream for their own house.
00:37:31
Speaker
Now that's the significant impact on the life of almost a million people. a ah which and and And that company, post-run investment, ah raised more than 2,000 crores.
00:37:46
Speaker
Today it has 10,000 crores of AUM 350 crores up. And we've of course made a lot of money on R&D. So we've done well, the company has done commercially well.
00:37:58
Speaker
And at the same time, oh millions of people have had a significant impact in their life because of them. it bond it It led to creation and entire creation of an entire industry called affordable housing finance.
00:38:15
Speaker
And today there are more than 10 affordable housing finance companies following exactly the same business. So that's the kind of catalytic role that want to play.
00:38:27
Speaker
ah That's the kind of investments that we want to make. I can give you a couple of more examples with Napan and Healthcare. ah We are investors in this company called TruMets.
00:38:38
Speaker
ah Now, you know, it's an online pharmacy focused on generic drugs. ah Now, what's generic drugs? ah You know, in India, when you buy...
00:38:50
Speaker
Paracetamol, you effectively buy Crocine, right? Crocine is a brand which is owned by Jackso. It sells for 10 rupees a tablet. A tablet costs 50 paisa to make.
00:39:02
Speaker
And if you buy as paracetamol, you will be able to buy it for a rupee, right? But it is it is selling it at 10 rupees because it is Jackso and the brand is croc.
00:39:18
Speaker
ah The same thing happens across all drugs. Now, think about a family. um and You know, if you are a diabetic patient or a blood pressure patient, you're supposed to take medicine all your life.
00:39:33
Speaker
oh And that's going to cost you about 4,000 to 5,000 rupees a month. Of course, it is not insured. You'll pay out of pocket. Yeah. Think about a family which has a growing income of, let's say, three, four lakh P and we, right, to spend 5000 P's a month just on the medicine for one person's drug is a lot of money.
00:39:55
Speaker
So there is a need for a cheaper alternative without compromising a quality and generics, generic drugs is the answer. And TruMets is focused on providing genetic drugs ah for chronic disease patients.
00:40:14
Speaker
And 60% of our patient base is suffering from either diabetes or diabetes. A vast majority video of our customer base is in the east and northern geography of this country, which are underdeveloped regions.
00:40:33
Speaker
apple alcohol And, you know, there an issue with ah just the basic availability of drugs in those oh jobs. So it's following a problem of access, problem of affordability.
00:40:49
Speaker
ah And, you know, it is a phenomenal business model as well. ah You know, the company has scaled up from less than a crore of monthly revenue any when we invested to nearly $5 million dollars of monthly revenue.
00:41:06
Speaker
So, and all of this in ah in in a very short time frame of about three to four years. so ah so So, these are examples of ah technology being leveraged to deliver impact at scale.
00:41:20
Speaker
And that's what excites us. oh Maybe I could give you another example in the field of education. ah You know, in the northern belt of this country, everyone wants a government job, right?
00:41:32
Speaker
oh Whether it is in whether it is to become a IAS or to become a bank clerk or a railway clerk or whatever. Government jobs speaks to income stability. And for someone coming from a low income group,
00:41:48
Speaker
ah Income stability is aspiration. Now, now think about someone in a tier four town in UP or Bihar. He or she doesn't have access to coaching for these government and jobs.
00:42:05
Speaker
Right. And if she wants to get access to that coaching, she has to move to a Lucknow or a Bihar or a New Delhi to get access to that. ah That entails cost, not just of Uchiha, but also of living in those cities.
00:42:20
Speaker
i And it's all very prohibited. ah What that results in is that you know these students... No, don't get access to it. We invested in this company called Atta247, which provides this coaching online at very affordable price points. So for a price point of 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 4, 5,000 P, you can subscribe to ah a course for a particular exam, let's say a banking or ah a railway club exam and get access to live online classes for these exams in a language of your choice. It can be
00:42:58
Speaker
Hindi, it can be in Punjabi, it can be in Tamil, it can be in Mani Alam, whatever it is. And, you know, there are huge number of subscribers that this company has and it's grown again 10x in the time, in the five year time frame that we have been invested in this business.
00:43:20
Speaker
ah So again, solves a very large problem for a very large section of... Okay.
Founding and Growth of Asha Ventures
00:43:27
Speaker
Okay. but adam
00:43:30
Speaker
yeah what What was, ah Asha was already up and running before you joined, right? Like, like give me a little bit of a history about that. Yeah. Yeah. So Asha was founded by two different people, Pramod Prasheed and Vikram Gandhi.
00:43:44
Speaker
Pramod was the founder of Genpact. It's one of the largest PPO companies in the country. And Vikram was the India CEO for Morgan Stanley in the mid-90s, went on to become the vice chairman for...
00:43:56
Speaker
global investment banking in South Holland. ah Both these internmen had a very successful career, wanted to give back to the country and like I described, ah didn't want to do charity, wanted to invest in scalable businesses, ah which kicked out.
00:44:13
Speaker
are commercially viable on their own and can scale up and attract more commercial capital and create impact at scale. So that was the thought process between they wanted to ah do investing.
00:44:25
Speaker
So they started ASHA way back in 2015 and you know you um it was initially their own personal capital and then a couple of large family offices like-minded family offices sort of turned hands and we invested in about 30 companies out of that setup.
00:44:48
Speaker
um Sometime around 21-22, they wanted to scale up that effort argument given the success that they would see and wanted to sort of ah make an AIF, raise institutional capital ah and scale up that effort, which is when You know, I joined them and in 2022, we started the product, raising our first ah traditional fund in 2003.
00:45:18
Speaker
And today, like I said, you know, we're deploying out of that fund. From this fund also, we've done three investments. We're doing investments anyway in the $10 million ticket size ring.
00:45:31
Speaker
That's the. but so So, 22, you started raising for the fund, like you formed the AIF and started raising. ah I guess by that time, the the sentiment had already changed, right? It must have been a hard environment to raise money for a new fund.
00:45:49
Speaker
How did you manage to pull that off? What were the challenges you encountered?
00:45:56
Speaker
So, yes, yeah the sentiment did change, but a yeah couple of things. ah ah One is, you know, we had a fairly good traffic on in terms of delivering returns and ah ah be the domestic institutional organization.
00:46:18
Speaker
was still ah quite supportive given the objective with which we are investing as well as the performance that we had. And of course, we, i we you know, all our existing LBs sort of topped up with significantly larger amounts.
00:46:34
Speaker
um So all of that put together sort of enabled us to raise the... priest the and This $100 million dollars is largely domestic?
00:46:45
Speaker
No, it's a mix of both domestic and violence.
00:46:51
Speaker
And what kind of some names that you can share? of Like who are the major LPs? Sure. So, ah you know, a bunch of institutional investors, like, you know, domestic ECB, SRI, lot of things.
00:47:10
Speaker
Uh, the bar, all of them are investors. Similarly, family officers who were all LPs in our previous head-up are investors, offshore deifyings, she commercial fund of funds, all of them are investors,
00:47:26
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So like, does it require you to do sales to get these investors on the way, like say, when a startup founder is raising funds, ah a lot of, for a lot of them, it's about doing sales to VCs. Is it similar for you as an investor when you want to raise money for a fund?
00:47:47
Speaker
Like, how does that process happen? Yeah, and um ah it is first similar and tougher than ah raising money for a startup. In startup, there is at least a business.
00:48:04
Speaker
Here, there is only a strategy and maybe a track record.
00:48:11
Speaker
So I would want to believe it's tougher. ah But yeah, I mean, I don't really look at it as a process of sale. I look at more of the process of finding um aligned or like-minded investors.
00:48:28
Speaker
ah i I essentially believe in describing one what we are up to, what we want to do, what we've done till now. And if it resonates with you, very good.
00:48:42
Speaker
yeah like like Did you have leverage existing relationships or like how did you get in the room? absolutely Absolutely. I mean, it is a very, very ah relationship driven. Trust or relationship oriented business.
00:48:57
Speaker
And you ask for existing relationships, existing reputation.
00:49:05
Speaker
Okay, interesting. ah Is there a difference between thesis and strategy for a fund or are these the same thing?
00:49:16
Speaker
had I mean, your heart consulted you already told me that. Yeah, I'm i like a very practical oriented person. I don't care about these these nuances.
00:49:28
Speaker
or Yeah, all I care about is whether the business model is interesting and can I make money on it? Very simple.
00:49:36
Speaker
I want to kind of go into some of these sectors with you. So a lot of the examples you gave me were from financial services. oh Why is financial services so attractive to investors?
00:49:49
Speaker
Sure. Like banks and BFCs. Yeah. So I would say that financial services continue. I mean, you know, historically, yes, financial services has been a big area of focus for a lot of investors, not just Asha.
00:50:04
Speaker
A couple of reasons. One is that it was ah ah massively undervalued. and In India. So there's an India opportunity. Yes. then It was massively underpenetrated.
00:50:15
Speaker
um You know, the the innovations that were happening in the sector well were leading to significant growth opportunities, ah leading to returns. In what way do you, like, could you describe what you mean by underpenetrated? Like people did not have access to credit or did not have bank account? absolutely. People did not have access to I mean, bank accounts were not there. People did not have access to that.
00:50:43
Speaker
ah You know, unsecured loans sort of didn't even exist, ah you know, 10, 15 years back. ah Lending to, ah you know, i give you an example of a 40-50 housing finance.
00:50:56
Speaker
That industry didn't exist 15 years back. um Similarly, MFI is an industry business. sort of was existing pre-2011 but ah it is in post-Andhra crisis that the industry sort of became well-regulated play.
00:51:17
Speaker
ah ah So overall, you know, the underpenetration, the growth opportunity ah in the sector plus its ability to absorb capital made it a very attractive sector for investors.
00:51:31
Speaker
ah but But I won't say that, ah you know, ah it I mean, over period of time, of course, a lot of those penetration issues have been addressed. So the low hanging fruits are gone.
00:51:43
Speaker
Right. ah the And At Asha, we are now, I mean, while historically we've made a lot of money in the in the sector and we continue to invest in it, we see far greater opportunities in in areas of sustainability, yeah healthcare, ah ah you know, consumer, B2B tech.
00:52:05
Speaker
So, those are the areas that we are incrementally focusing on and we see large opportunities there. ah and And that's where our efforts Do you...
00:52:17
Speaker
identify opportunities in the sense that, for example, affordable housing is an opportunity which as a fund we have identified and then we go out and find a company operating in that space.
00:52:32
Speaker
Or is it the other way around that you receive proposals and then you look at those and then you evaluate each one standalone? Like, how does it work? Sure. So look, I mean, it is a very iterative process. You can't work in isolation.
00:52:46
Speaker
ah So I won't say that I sit in a room and think, oh, affordable housing actually be funded and oh, fantastic
Identifying Investment Opportunities: Listening to Entrepreneurs
00:52:53
Speaker
opening. That doesn't work. Entrepreneurs are far smarter than us.
00:52:59
Speaker
Far, far, far smarter than us. Right? And they can see what we cannot see. And our job as investors is to be open-minded and listen to entrepreneurs and hear what they are seeing on the ground.
00:53:17
Speaker
What is the opportunity that they are seeing? Sometimes you buy that opportunity, sometimes you don't buy it. That is your perspective as an investor.
00:53:31
Speaker
oh Once you, once that opportunity sort of resonates with you, b the thing that we do is sort of ah that sector because like I said, every entrepreneur will come at the same problem from very different perspectives and that will lead to very unique business models to solve the exactly same problem.
00:53:59
Speaker
Again, our job as investors is to figure out which business model is best, which is the most scalable, which is the entrepreneur who has the best execution skills, best fund, you know, every race fund, stuff like that.
00:54:12
Speaker
ah So I can give you a couple of examples. For example, now you know, we invested in a, you know, in ah in a company called Ascend Capital, which is, which lends for EV vehicles.
00:54:28
Speaker
So, and we were talking to entrepreneurs who were building electric vehicle businesses in India.
00:54:38
Speaker
One thing that we constantly heard from them was lack of financing for these makers. And that is where we saw the opportunity.
00:54:49
Speaker
And we mapped out the sector, found this capital company based in Jaipur. yeah The founders were doing an exceptional job in terms of execution.
00:55:00
Speaker
ah And we backed them with that. So it's a process of iteration, you hear from entrepreneurs, what they're seeing on the ground, how they're approaching the business and look deeper into the opportunity and figure out what's the business model you think will work there and end better.
00:55:21
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Interesting. um What are opportunities for entrepreneurs ah in your perspective based on what you are hearing from the ground and your research and, you know, what are some areas which you think ah like, you know, listeners to this podcast should kind of explore that?
00:55:40
Speaker
ah Like you said in say financial services, the low hanging fruits are gone. So what is what is left now in that sector or in say healthcare care or consumer or sustainability?
Opportunities in Sustainability and Healthcare Innovations
00:55:51
Speaker
you' like Can we just like do a little bit of jamming on ideas for entrepreneurs? Yeah.
00:55:58
Speaker
yeah So, ah you know, sustainability is a big theme that we are chasing and it is a big horizontal. and ah It can span from sectors like consumer, conscious consumerism is becoming a big theme to all the way to, um you know, and deep B2B. Yeah.
00:56:21
Speaker
i
00:56:24
Speaker
um and you know, you're trying to ah reduce um yeah carbon footprint of hardware-based sectors like steel industry, cement industry. ah soap so So the entire entire spectrum of problems to be solved for ah you know us as a nation to a Jeeva sustainability goals.
00:56:50
Speaker
ah So solving from everything that touches a consumer piece, whether it is the the product itself, the packaging, ah to the logistics, to the way it manufactured,
00:57:02
Speaker
ah you know across the board ah there are opportunities to make ah innovations to do innovations to improve the footprint of each process ah and and would be played across the sector.
00:57:19
Speaker
That be, you know, played in agriculture, which is a big source of emission. That would be played in transportation, which is a big source of emission. And like and ah in in in in industries like steel and demand.
00:57:36
Speaker
Okay. Okay. ah So like the move towards carbon neutral. So companies which are supporting that move, ah be it directly consumer facing or B2B companies, both of these are opportunities.
00:57:52
Speaker
what what What else? What about in say healthcare? care So in healthcare, care of course, there are multiple interesting things coming up. So for example, ah use of technology in healthcare, care AI in healthcare. care What is the, there are several use cases for AI in healthcare.
00:58:14
Speaker
ah We are excited about, we are really excited about, god Some of the new segments that are coming up, so for example, senior care. Despite all the talk about ah India being a young nation, there is a significant senior population that is there.
00:58:33
Speaker
And senior care is coming up as an important industry ah which has to come up. um over the next decade and we are very keen on that space.
00:58:50
Speaker
ah Similarly, you know, government has just like UPI, the digital public infrastructure that government has on the healthcare side.
00:59:01
Speaker
ah What are the use cases that can be on top of ah that digital public infrastructure? That's something that we are interested in.
00:59:16
Speaker
Okay. ah and For AI in healthcare, care are you talking of like say consumer apps or people who are helping medical practitioners to save their time through tools, AI tools? So, you know, I mean, there are both B2B and B2C plays there.
00:59:37
Speaker
ah So, for example, ah i You know, on the consumer side, there can be place for mental health, you know, therapy sessions, can be sort of AI led.
00:59:56
Speaker
Similarly, on the B2B side, there can be oh you know, softwares which can help with the analytics, diagnosis, stuff like that.
01:00:12
Speaker
and And that's something that we are Okay. Okay. Okay. And in senior care, what are you specifically looking at? I met a couple of people who are doing on the services side, like say a monthly subscription package for a senior. And I don't think these companies have scaled too much. I don't think Indians are comfortable paying subscription for this kind of a service. but What are you looking at?
01:00:40
Speaker
Those are more like concierge services. Hmm. lot um um um and Yeah, I mean, that sounds like a tough thing ah in India. ah what What is most careable is, you know, business models. where so um We are not so excited about the at-home care.
01:01:01
Speaker
We are more excited about centers owned by the these So, don't know.
01:01:12
Speaker
that geriatric care is what we are like. Like senior living or like just like say a clinic? Senior living tends to be a real estate place. Fairly, yeah, real estate place.
01:01:25
Speaker
But let's say if you're suffering from and um yeah yeah a one is the whole post-operative care situation. industry.
01:01:37
Speaker
Second is, let's say if you are so suffering from Alzheimer's, dementia,
01:01:43
Speaker
you'll need professional care and in those situations, there are service providers which are emerging, you can provide Okay.
01:01:58
Speaker
and Understood. and does it And in the ah digital public infrastructure, what are the opportunities you're seeing? Like i on ONDC, like for example?
01:02:08
Speaker
ah No, ah soup ah for healthcare, you know, the government has known IJ1, Karat, digital machine, ABDM.
Government's Role in Digital Healthcare Infrastructure and Impact
01:02:18
Speaker
ah And what that does is it innovation areas like interoperable health records, training medicines, digital hand payment.
01:02:30
Speaker
So basically, ah ah in a couple of years, from um all the health records of everyone in India will be digital. They will be available to everyone.
01:02:43
Speaker
ah You can control access ah to those digital records and make them available to any doctor operating anywhere in the country. oh And those records will enable you to get access to best quality medical advice sitting anywhere country.
01:03:04
Speaker
and and that is the game-changing play. It also ah has a play on the insurance side where all these records are available to the insurance players, enable them to write insurance, health insurance in a far better manner and price those insurances.
01:03:27
Speaker
so so So there will be multiple interesting plays coming up and And think about it, when when the health records are easily available, oh there is a lot of data that becomes available for inequality or disease or anything of that sort.
01:03:44
Speaker
And then you can run AI models on top of it and and the learning curve that AI models would undergo on that and they could receive it, we would diagnose the incremental machine flow is phenomenal.
01:03:58
Speaker
Okay, so companies which are enabling this digitization, like say Eka, those kind of companies would be mean interesting opportunities. Okay, okay, okay. Understood.
01:04:10
Speaker
Okay. ah What is the role of government regulations in your life as an investor? Like say, yeah you know, this whole unsecured lending is something which now RBI is kind of doing some sort of a soft job.
Regulatory Influences on Investment, Especially in EVs and Sustainability
01:04:25
Speaker
a ban or a discouragement on that and we should then affect the fate of companies in this space so you know how do you look at regulations what what's the way in which does it influence your investing decision
01:04:43
Speaker
so absolutely um um You know, regulations can be a big deal even to your business. ah ah government Government still is a big part of the economy in India, as well as sort of defines the rule of the game, right? So it is important that you are on the right side of the curve.
01:05:08
Speaker
ah and And so, yes, of course, we we we do take that into consideration while forming our investment decisions. oh I mean, the whole EV traction that we are seeing, the EV industry that we are seeing, is thanks to the courage and subsidy that the government has given out.
01:05:33
Speaker
The whole story about domestic manufacturing is again thanks to and the PLI scheme that the government launched. Similarly, on the sustainability side, it is government's commitment to net zero, which is driving a lot of schemes and helping a lot of startups thrive.
01:05:56
Speaker
ah So yes, government plays a very, very important positive role in the industry. ah and And we do look for those to even value back the investments.
01:06:12
Speaker
What are some interesting developments which have created opportunities? like Like, you know, some milestones which you think these are going to lead to new opportunities.
01:06:23
Speaker
Sure. So like I said, you know, um the entire sustainability opportunity, ah not the entire piece of it, but a large part of it is governed by
01:06:40
Speaker
on a by the objective of governments worldwide, not just in India, to move towards view. um it You know,
01:06:52
Speaker
It is that concerted effort to move towards net zero, which is leading to formation of relations,
01:07:02
Speaker
making it more difficult for products with higher carbon to sell in the market and making it easier for products with lower carbon to sell in the market. so a So, you know, I mean, very simple thing, right? I mean, in automobile sector, there is there was Bharat 1, Bharat 2, Bharat 3.
01:07:21
Speaker
Those were the emission norms for vehicles. What is that? That is just a regulatory move towards tighter emission norms, which is essentially a mode worth in it. ah ah And this entire move towards EVs, you know, the subsidies that have been given up.
01:07:40
Speaker
are essentially driven by the desire to move toward lesser government for us. So, ah so flow Similarly, you know, I mean, that's on the automobile or transport side.
01:07:56
Speaker
Similarly, on the industry side, ah you know, cement, steel, all of those sectors are seeing tight tighter regulations and are required to make modifications in the processes, manhacking processes to reduce their carbon footprint.
01:08:14
Speaker
To that, again, regulatory-driven changes. So, so Yeah, I mean, sustainability and theme relies on government.
01:08:26
Speaker
Okay, good, understood. Let me end with this. You know, for someone who aspires to be an investor, what qualities should they develop in themselves?
01:08:39
Speaker
So, a couple of things. One is...
01:08:44
Speaker
You know, a strong interest in understanding new models, new companies, new opportunities, listening to entrepreneurs, understanding their vision.
01:09:00
Speaker
I think being a patient listener is that in a very, very important quality for any world investor. ah ability to analyze a situation, analyze the business, you whether it be an industry, a business model, whatever it ability to analyze is another big trade that I would say.
01:09:26
Speaker
Third, it's ability to take independent decisions, right, without getting swayed by, ah You know, whether a thing is hard or cold, you need to make your own independent decision.
01:09:46
Speaker
That's a big one. Many people have it. And fourth and final thing is ability to come up the ups and downs.
01:09:59
Speaker
Even the best of decisions will have its own shares of ups and downs. You have to have the ability to stick with it.
01:10:09
Speaker
Feed to. I think those are the four things. Any investor must. What were your downs as an investor? guns Yeah. and Again, like I said, you know, I, you know, by God's praise, I haven't had write-off.
01:10:25
Speaker
Okay. ah But, but, you know, and even the most successful investment will have its own moments, near death moments. For example, ah you know, when we were invested in Horta Finance, which is in BFC, ah just a month later, we had demonetization.
01:10:45
Speaker
Ah, okay. then Then there was the INFS crisis. Then there was COVID lockdown. All of it within a span of five years. You know, three times in a period of five years, ah we had very many tough times, right?
01:11:04
Speaker
Like I said, you know, you have have the stomach to ah live through all of them, be supported. and And then you see...
01:11:15
Speaker
being Do you have ah your anti-portfolio like regrets that I- Many, many of them. i can't even count them. who Give me some examples.
01:11:26
Speaker
Lots of them. I mean, like I said, you know, I mean, many, many of them. ah I mean, from from an Attenberg to a Buffy Ours to, ah you know, many, many of them. I mean, like yeah there's so many of them that you miss out.
01:11:43
Speaker
um And thank God that your track record doesn't capture them. and ah yeah and What gets captured is only the balls that you take.
01:11:56
Speaker
ah So so that's that's a great thing. like Like what was your learning, say after you passed up on Atomberg, it would have changed your decision making model, right? Like what was the reason to pass up on it and what did you feel was wrong in that reasoning?
01:12:14
Speaker
See, I think, good you know, overall entrepreneurs,
01:12:23
Speaker
you know, the best entrepreneurs prove you wrong. Hmm. and And that ah ability after to overlook what the numbers are showing and believe in a larger...
01:12:45
Speaker
It is an important quantity for any investor to have, but it is tough one also. it is The lines get blurred very, very, very quickly there.
01:12:57
Speaker
So, fan industry as, as, on its own, you know, being fourth or five-fifth, mean, just, just the fan industry may not sound very exciting.
01:13:11
Speaker
ah But, but can I create a larger brand which can transcend industry? I, mean that is, number can tell.
01:13:24
Speaker
Yeah. I spoke to an investor once who said that he passed on Flipkart because he thought that this is selling books and how big is market for books? And, you know, obviously.
01:13:36
Speaker
you Absent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Thank you so much for your time, Ramit. It was a real pleasure. My pleasure, Akshay. Thank