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On intersectionality
6 Plays1 hour ago
We’re delving into the concept of intersectionality—where different aspects of identity, such as race, gender, and sexuality, intersect and influence experiences. Our guests Alex, Magda, and Viole share generously from their personal experience and experience as change creators to discuss why it’s crucial to understand these overlapping identities when working towards true inclusion.
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Transcript
Intro
Welcome and Introduction
00:00:29
mahmoassy
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of our podcast, Working with Identities. Working with that with Identities is a podcast dedicated to fostering meaningful conversations between identities and companies and organizations. Each episode highlights the experiences, challenges, and talents of individuals from different social and demographic groups.
00:00:45
Alex
Thank
00:00:50
mahmoassy
Our goal is to create constructive space where
00:00:53
Alex
you.
Exploring Intersectionality
00:00:53
mahmoassy
stories are shared, solutions are explored, and understanding is built.
00:00:58
mahmoassy
ultimately promoting a more inclusive workspace and society.
Guest Introductions
00:01:02
mahmoassy
Today we're going to be talking about intersectionality and what it means and I'm very excited to have our guests here who are going to share with us from their experiences how can we work on this and implementing this intersectional lens into ah creating these inclusive spaces in our ah workspace. I would love for our guests to present themselves and share with us who they are and and and their experiences. I'm going to ah first pass and the microphone to Magda. Hi Magda, thank you for being here today.
00:01:35
Magda _she_her_
Hi, everyone. My name is Magda. My pronoun pronouns are she, her, and I'm helping organizations to build a trans inclusive workplaces, which means I've been a leader for 10 years. I'm a woman with trans life experience and I love dancing.
00:01:56
mahmoassy
Thank you very much, Magda. Yes, dancing is such an important aspect of life for me. Dancing is like what gives me joy in the day-to-day. Maybe we can move on to Violetta, Violetta. Can you please present yourself?
00:02:09
Viole
Hi, thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Well, I'm Viola. My pronouns are she or they. I'm a proud, queer, migrant, never diverse, and survivor of gender violence, and also a mother. And I'm the head of diversity at a technology company. And that's it.
00:02:32
mahmoassy
Great, thank you very much really for being here today, and we have Alex.
00:02:39
Alex
Hi, everyone. Thank you for having me here. My name is Alex. My pronouns are he, him. And I mainly work at the communication fields, have worked for different agencies and managing um the communication of different projects or or brands.
00:02:57
mahmoassy
Great. And as always, my name is Mahmoud. I am a diversity, equity, and inclusion consultant and trainer. I'm going to be moderating the conversation here between these amazing individuals. I've taken from their time to share from their knowledge and experience about the topic of intersectionality. And my pronouns are he, him. So without further ado,
What Does Intersectionality Mean?
00:03:16
mahmoassy
let's jump in into the topic of today. Can somebody tell me, what do you understand? What does it actually mean, ah this word intersectionality? What do we mean when we talk about intersectionality?
00:03:30
Viole
I can go first if you want. I'm not going to give you a definition by a book. But for me, in personality, it's like a golden scheme of all the experiences that shape who we are. and All the experiences that we are we live through our life. For me, it's like kaleidoscope that adapt to different shapes. ah We get to know each other better and become aware of who we are. and
00:04:02
Viole
being sovereigns of o ourselves, responsible for moving that length to see the things in different ways. And I think that of also in technology is um many times our one battle. that become learnings and also a flux of power pride in different aspects, not only gender. As I said, for example, I'm queer, I'm migrant, I'm now diverse, and I'm also a survivor. And this is who we are. I'm a kaleidoscope.
00:04:36
mahmoassy
That's an amazing, amazing way to put it. Thank you. vi What do you think, ah Magda and Alex? how How do you define this term intersectionality?
00:04:46
Magda _she_her_
alex alex would you like to go or can i go
00:04:48
Alex
Oh, thank you. ma yeah Well, I feel I mean, I totally lie with but what Biola just say. um I just think um to me, just sexuality, apart from what had just been said, um I feel like each Each one of us has their own experience and their own definition, and all of them are valid um in a way, because that's also in interesting and intersectionality, being able to um ah be aware of all of the different POVs that people have in their lives and their experience, especially based on the gender of ethnicity or these little boxes that society puts you in.
00:05:10
Magda _she_her_
Alex, would you like to go or can I go?
00:05:35
Alex
um And when society it does put you in those little boxes, um I feel like it is important to know that inter interesting intersectionality is something that you cannot um avoid and you cannot run away from. um It's something that is present in every single aspect of your life, not only in the in the workplace. um It can be difficult to manage, but I think it also brings a lot of um a lot of brightness and and a lot of opportunities um and and different different types of intelligence into your life and the people around you.
00:06:19
mahmoassy
Yeah, yeah. And Magda, what do you think? To give the last position is always hard to give.
00:06:25
Alex
Hm.
00:06:26
Magda _she_her_
Yeah, so I feel, ah thank you Viola and Alex for, you know, your definition.
00:06:26
mahmoassy
i
00:06:31
Magda _she_her_
I think also I would like to say, like, um if you are more aware about who you are. what i what I experience you are more exposed to be um excluded and you know people can discriminate you or judge you by more identities that you have like for example me as a person who has story of being trans and my identity as a woman so I feel like many people can you know um yeah judge you and
00:07:08
Magda _she_her_
exclude you um and this is not a good feeling, this is not a nice feeling, right? But the most important thing is how you feel about yourself and if you love yourself, if you accept yourself and if you have people who loves you. But yeah, I would like to tell that sometimes it's very hard and it's good to stick to who you are and be close to yourself, but it's not easy. But I would say it's worth it. And for the people who are sometimes struggling, you know that you are not aligned with society expect from you. I think the most important thing is that you
00:07:50
Magda _she_her_
love yourself that you are you know stick to your values and you're not getting other to tell you who you are because yeah i experience it that people are often are trying to say who you are right but the most important and hard thing is to know who you are and stick to this to that
00:08:12
Alex
i I just wanted to say that I just love what you just said, Magda, about not being what society expects from you. More like you being aware of who you are and and maybe just putting in those demands of yourself to yourself beforehand. I think it's it's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.
00:08:34
mahmoassy
definitely Definitely.
Impact of Intersectional Identities in the Workplace
00:08:35
mahmoassy
I think like this is what makes the topic of identity incredibly, for me, incredibly interesting because it it is a topic that extends from the self and then goes into the society. So its kind of it has a lot of individual aspect and a lot of collective aspect and the at the same time. And I think even when we talk about identities, especially when we talk about inclusion, we sometimes focus on the or the you know the collective aspect. But there's also a lot to say when we're talking about the individual aspect of things. right So um stemming from that, I would like for us also to discuss like how does having an intersectional identity impact one's experience? um if you If you belong to different groups that maybe face certain challenges, multiple groups that face different like multiple challenges or discrimination in society, how does this overlap between identities impact one's experience?
00:09:29
Magda _she_her_
I can start if I can here. So I would like to remind that according to McKinsey report more than 50% of trans people are not feeling comfortable to be out at the workplace. So this is such set and you know important data to remember and often transgender people who decide to talk about
00:09:53
Alex
you
00:09:56
Magda _she_her_
their identity are you know not ah able to find a job. And this is the big ah problem ah problem issue at the workplace, at the market. And companies need to make actions and be aware of this, right? Because often the companies or people at at the companies expect that someone will do coming out, but the company, it's not safe space, right? to To do it. And also it's another big discussion, what that means as safe space. And also I realized I was naive that, you know, society and, you know, people are more aware
00:10:38
Magda _she_her_
But yeah, those data and real experience live showed me that, you know, there is so many things to be improved, right? So, um yeah, the reminder is about, um yeah, support um everyone as ah as a collective. So, um yeah.
00:11:01
mahmoassy
I think definitely this is such an important aspect. I think like sometimes, specifically nowadays in, in for example, in different ah European countries, we might have an assumption that society has advanced in certain elements or that certain reality, or we don't you know see ah certain realities and certain challenges that happen to people with with with different identities. And I think it is important for us to be curious about these realities to truly understand our role in shaping you know society and truly making it inclusive.
00:11:34
mahmoassy
so and
00:11:34
Magda _she_her_
And one one important thing like active listening, listening what people are saying, not telling us our identities.
00:11:41
Alex
you
00:11:43
Magda _she_her_
And again, I can, I can share that example that often people are putting me to the box of being trans before listening that my identity is a woman, but I'm open and I'm advocating because, you know, at some point of my life, I thought about myself as a transgender person, right? So. I would really encourage people to ask open questions. For example, what is your identity? Not coming to me. I shared before we jumped to the call that I've been on the vacation and you know, the guys during the party came to me. One of them asked me, are you a lady boy?
00:12:21
Magda _she_her_
another came to me and asked me, are you a woman without saying hi, without having any conversation, without giving me a feeling that it's a safe space to open up. And this is not okay, but it's still happening all over the world. And you know, yeah, just, I'm strong person, but I'm always, you know, um wondering how people will mental health issues with other issues can You know, keep it, hold it, because it's so hard.
00:12:53
Viole
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
00:12:54
mahmoassy
100%.
00:12:56
Viole
One of the advice that I always deliver on the trainings to the others and people in the company is don't take for granted. we are more than our look, we are more of our expression, and the first thing to say is, hi, how are you? If you want to know who I am, invite me for a cup for coffee, let's go to the canteen, let's have a nice talk, because I'm a human being, and I'm more than my gender, my sexual orientation, or my condition, or if I'm um more than that. Before before of all that variables, I'm a person.
00:13:33
Viole
And people sometimes don't take this don't take this into account. They see us like, oh, for example, I'm super queer and people always ask me about my tattoos, my earrings, and it's okay. But before all that, I'm Yole. Just say hi to Yole. Okay? And for me, this is very important. We are human beings. We are not freaks. We are human beings as you. So the first question is, hi, how are you? I didn't buy me a cup of coffee. Please, if you want to share me if you want me to share my life with you, let's be kind.
00:14:08
Alex
Totally. I feel like especially in the workplace, it can be difficult when you're a part of any sort of intersectionality to don't feel like you're a prop, like you're not an object, like you are not there to, first of all,
00:14:08
mahmoassy
Thank
00:14:13
mahmoassy
you.
00:14:27
Alex
To me, the most important thing is I'm not obligated to represent the entire community in which I do which i belong to. It's not my job and you shouldn't expect that. I mean, I'm just a person, just like Beyonce. And also it comes like as an extremely rude way to to to introduce yourself to someone or to expect someone to be a certain way just because they look a certain way. Like that's what we're trying to um
00:14:58
Alex
run away from because I was just listening to what Magda was saying and i I can only imagine how could those interaction will make you feel so I mean I totally agree with you I just I feel like the human part ah of ah ah of that, it's very important. I feel like ah it also could be a little bit complicated because we have to think that we are part of a workplace and we're human force. So even though we all want to be treated like humans, it depends on which company you are. You might not be as human, you um are your tool. So maybe that's the complicated part. And I don't really know where the balance is in which you can make it more fair or
00:15:44
Alex
ah easy for the person per se.
00:15:49
mahmoassy
I think you you've all touched on a point i I see it as both the challenge and opportunity of intersectionality, which is the human tendency to put ideas of identities into boxes, stereotypes, you know, like a gay person is like that, a migrant is like that, you know, an ex person is like that. and how some people go into some sort of a brain freeze when you are different identities and you're like oh my god do I don't have a box for a person who is this and that like oh my god what do I do and they you know they're stuck into this the limbo they don't know how to
00:16:25
mahmoassy
how to figure you out. And I think this this you know this freeze this mental freeze, this confusion that it generates in people, I think in a way, as I said, it's like the challenge and the the opportunity of intersectionality because I feel like intersectionality is kind of like obliges you to think Oh, actually people don't fit in these fixed boxes that I have in my head. People are humans who have a wide variety of identities and experiences and they need to go back to humanizing the person in front of me and actually connecting with them.
00:16:58
mahmoassy
yeah
00:16:58
Viole
I absolutely agree with you. I have a friend in Argentina that used to call me Rada Avis that ah the meaning is like a strange bird because by the age of 33 I ah had my four kids and when I picked my kids for school I was not similar to the other mothers. I was very different but when I was in the supermarket they saw me with four kids. You don't you don't expect a person with my look and feel to have four kids and to be a full-time mother for example or to be a pole dancer that is my
00:17:33
Viole
my sport so and also I'm pansexual and I can be with different persons and people are always surprised and they say, ah, but I thought you you were, you don't look like a non-binary person because, oh, you use high heels or you look like a mother because you you do pole dance, you don't look like a pole dancer because you have four kids and that is the the bias and you can see a bias when people tell this into your face. And for me, sometimes it's funny, but sometimes it's very I feel very tired and frustrated because I can see the length of the people. They try to put me as a mother, but I cannot be pole dancer and I cannot be a professor. if And this is very exhausting for me sometimes because people speak out loud about their biases without being aware of their biases. And this is hard.
00:18:29
mahmoassy
100%, 100%. Well, I think like this is this i think like leads to the next question I have for you is that we know that there is a human tendency to create these boxes, these ideas. And then we know that you know like as like there's a lot to do to really put the emphasis on connecting with people, right? And when we're talking about workplaces, we're talking about spaces and processes and systems that are designed. And they usually have specific people in mind in the designing of those processes, right? So when we when we want to integrate this
Incorporating Intersectionality in DEI Efforts
00:19:02
mahmoassy
intersectional lens into how we design these these systems, these processes, these environments in that sense, how does that look like? how can we What does it mean to integrate an intersectional lens to the work of diversity, equity and inclusion?
00:19:18
Alex
um yeah I just wanted to say that a simple, a really simple idea. um But really, you must really go after people like they're a blank ah canvas. um And that's it. And you have to let them draw, paint, sing, whatever they might feel. Also, we're talking about a professional play is an environment so it's not like you are necessarily going to be friends or buddies or go on a trip or whatever but especially because it's a work environment and you're going to be forced to be in stressful situations and in which you don't know what you might be doing or the other person doesn't know either.
00:20:06
Alex
um You got to be open. and And I know that it's just so cliche, but you got to see people as a blank canvas. And that's it. You cannot expect anyone to behave a certain way just because the way that you perceive them to be, because it's not who they are. It's how you perceive them to be. And they're not going to be that way. Just like you are not going to be that way for other people.
00:20:33
Viole
Yeah, I totally agree. I want to to to bring the example of what I do at my company. ah The first thing is open the range. It's not only about about gender or LGBT plus community. We are much more than that. So in that case, we have different pillars of diversity. We have gender and sexual identity pillar, we have noted the virginity and accessibility pillar, also the generational and <unk> based ah diversity and multiculturalism. Okay, we open the range, but we cannot work in mental silos.
00:21:14
Viole
because one person can be from the altitude of that community but also from a different country as I said and the head of diversity for the European region and it's not the same to work with a person ah in Italy with issues about gender or to celebrate the pride in Madrid or in another country maybe for Western m is Europe so this is very important we have the pillars but for example we have the calendar okay let's go to celebrate the age of March women's day perfect
00:21:46
Viole
But let's put a speaker, a women's speaker, but also a women's speaker with disability, with neurodiversity, because women are not only white, cis, or European. So this is and what ah I think that we need to see in companies. Not only work with these pillars as silos. Let's put them in a blender and yeah, let's go for LGBT community, but also in LGBT community, we have people would um from the neurodivergent community or with disabilities. Are we working on that way or we are putting like these different labels in different boxes? That is not the right way, because as we all agree, we we are like a kaleidoscope. We have much more than one label in our life.
00:22:35
mahmoassy
Definitely, definitely. What do you think? like
00:22:39
Magda _she_her_
If you can repeat a question one more time, I would be very grateful to be sure that I will answer it to the question.
00:22:44
mahmoassy
yeah
00:22:48
mahmoassy
Yes, so the question basically is, considering all these elements that we discussed before about intersectionality in the boxes and whatnot, and we want to integrate this intersectional lens into how we design our workspaces, work processes and systems and whatnot, right? So the question is, what does it mean to integrate an intersectional lens? Like what do we actually do to ensure that intersectionality is a core element of our inclusion efforts?
00:23:15
Magda _she_her_
Yeah, so again, I will speak about, you know, um the behalf of transgender community, what often I hear and experience, like, for example, company has one transgender person who's open about it. And they are trying to take everything from that person. And for example, person is not ready, or don't want to share their You know, life experience because it's not their job is not about diversity, equity, inclusion. They just want to do their job. So often I see like if
00:23:52
Magda _she_her_
There is, for example, one person who is representing some company, I think, ah some ah sorry, some marginalized community. Often people do not remember it's not the job of the person to educate. It's not their, you know, the job that is paid. And often companies are forcing it and then saying, You know what, but it's important for you, right? So I would encourage here to you know consult with people from marginalized communities who are willing to share personal experiences and want to help.
00:24:33
Magda _she_her_
Of course, if the employee would like to contribute and they have space, resources, it's great. You you are more than welcome to invite them, but not, you know, over, um yeah, like, do not use people, I would say in this way, right?
00:24:44
Alex
Thank
00:24:51
Magda _she_her_
The people who don't want to be used do not use them, right? ah invite people as as an LGBTQ plus entrepreneur. I know how we are struggling to be invited to have a cash flow the whole year, not just during the Pride, which already finished.
00:25:09
Alex
you.
00:25:11
Magda _she_her_
um So just, you know, um I really want to support people from other communities because I see we all have a passion for what we are doing.
00:25:20
Alex
you
00:25:24
Magda _she_her_
We really want to make a change. But so often, ah yeah companies are choosing big brands who are doing diversity equity inclusion. and Maybe they are not aware we exist, right? I mean, like right now I have quite, you know, and I mean, like I have different position, but I'm very active on LinkedIn, but I knew many people who are not so active on LinkedIn or for example, they are starting on Instagram. So it's very important to give them voice, to give them visibility, to give them a chance to speak, to, you know, bring
00:26:01
Magda _she_her_
um life experience to your organization. It's so important that it's going from people with life experience, not people who are saying about it in a theoretical way. And this is also a challenge because often when I'm saying like, oh, let's do a workshop for a leader, someone from the company is saying, but you know, they had a workshop and they didn't learn anything because it was theoretical. So I think it's that it's a challenge how to you know invite everyone who is responsible somehow for diversity, equity, inclusion to make actions, right? Because yeah, some people are on the beginning very resistant because they have that experience with some learnings, with some workshops,
00:26:49
Magda _she_her_
with some you know speeches, how to you know invite them, because I truly believe and I will repeat, we need allies, we need like straight people who will support us to normalize the topic of being queer, because yeah, it's such, and for example, I can share, I'm here in Amsterdam since few hours, but I have feeling that the whole city is living um is celebrating pride and that sounds beautiful because it's not only for queer people pride and it seems like really Amsterdam is trying to invite everyone and is understanding why it's such important the role of allyship and I severely would they would like to say something so yeah
00:27:37
Viole
Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I want to speak about these two two points. First of all, if you are a manager of diversity, a head of diversity, ah ah you are part of the people team, try to hire a speaker that can't speak in first person. First of all, because people, the audience will love that. They will feel the experience. they will They can feel the realness of that speech. I don't like to hire big consultative firms to speak about, for example, being trans. I don't want to see a beor what a white male cis bender speaking about trans people. I like to see Magda. Or, as I hire you before,
00:28:24
Viole
lamo because I know that you are a a refugee and you're part of the LGBT plus community and people will fail that. They fail the words. So this is very important. Second, I speak to the companies. Okay, you're going to have a responsible for diversity. If that person part of any community is neurodivergent, is from the LGBT plus community, is a woman, because sometimes we see this people with a lot of privileges talking about things that they know don't know and yeah that you can do a master on diversity and now we are seeing these masters and trainings on diversity and it's okay but
00:29:08
Viole
there is something about the the power of the speech in first person that we need to take into account. So I encourage companies to hire speakers and can speak on their experience from their heart. And this is very important because when Magda or Magmod, you speak from your heart and from your own experience, you are changing something. There is an energy that people can feel. And companies take into account that, as Magda said, people from the community, we need to have jobs to pay the rent and pay the food. And we are experts in putting our heart here. So this message
Active Participation and Feedback in DEI
00:29:49
Viole
is very important for me.
00:29:52
mahmoassy
I think like you've you've like mentioned a lot of things that are very important. i I would love to try to summarize it in in in one go. So I think like we started with the importance of not stepping into the space assuming things, right likere starting with a clean slate, in that sense. right And being very open to ah until to listening to people and their various experiences, putting a lot of emphasis on two important things. Listen to people from the first experience like the people that actually live these realities and try to get this diversity of voices but do not force people to speak only like go to the people that actually are willing to speak because it's not the responsibility of people with of different you know identities to educate you about their identities.
00:30:37
mahmoassy
But there are many people from different identities that took it upon themselves to share and help people understand the realities of the arts. So go to those people in that sense. And then we have the element that is also very important, which is understanding that we cannot implement the initiatives that we do in diversity equity, inclusions inclusion, and in to work in silos. We need to create this connectedness between the different initiatives that we're doing. Create these spaces, this intersectionality, this this crossroad between the initiatives that we're doing and see what we can learn together ah along along the way. That way we're increasing our awareness continually you know with ah food the initiatives that are coming up and understanding how can we do better.
00:31:21
mahmoassy
so We are reaching towards the end of our conversation today, but I just want to leave just a couple of minutes for each one of you to just share any so any insights, thoughts, or or maybe a message of hope or recommendations that you have for ah the people that are listening to us.
00:31:38
Alex
ah Well, I just wanted to add up to what you were mentioning before that the ally the ally part, Valentina, I'm an ally.
00:31:49
mahmoassy
We'll
00:31:50
Alex
It's really important. um And I feel like also maybe in the different companies that might be listening or people that might be interested in this, um I feel like it's super important to create a place in which
00:31:55
mahmoassy
stick
00:32:05
Alex
people that are not part of this intersection intersectionality might be interested in learning because it doesn't really do much if I create a workshop or a space in which I'm trying to teach you something, if you're just not interested in it.
00:32:14
mahmoassy
with it.
00:32:23
Alex
If there's not a single bone in your body that is trying to understand something because it's gonna go in one ear and it's gonna went out into into into the other so I feel like that creating the that awareness prior to the workshops and prior to the conversations trying to create that environment in a 365 way of the year. um Not just Pride Month, like ma I mentioned, I feel like it's super valuable. um And for the the people who belong to any sort of intersectionality, I would like to mention that you don't have to be perfect. ah You don't ah have to be a role model. You just gotta be you. You're gonna make mistakes. um You're gonna be great. And you're gonna go or all through different phases and spaces. and you should be allowed to because every single person is allowed to um so you should do that as well and be able to do that as well and the workplace should create a space in which people shouldn't feel the pressure that they need to be to to be doing the most um to ah sometimes unfortunately get the least if you compare them to their counterparts or work buddies.
00:33:43
Viole
Just maybe as as final words, I want to to highlight these three things that for me are very important. As you said, annual and permanent diversity strategy, not only pride, not only women's month. Second, listen. Listen and listen what people need. I agree with Magda that communities of of employee are the way to gain capillarity and to be able to hear all the voices and to take into account all the variables that makes a person. The culture they grew up,
00:34:18
Viole
the economic situation because we are talking about privilege here, the religion or political or spiritual beliefs. It's necessary to plan the day's tragedy from a holistic point of view and from a bottom-up approach. It's not what the manager of diversity thinks that people need. Don't make that mistake. Even if you are part of the community, you are part of the of whole the ah different communities as I am, don't take for granted. We have two years, as I always say, and one month. One month. That is because of Tampin. I want to believe that that is because of Tampin. So listen, listen and listen. and then
00:35:02
Viole
respond because you cannot use communities. You cannot go and say, OK, what ideas do you have? OK, I will use this for my strategy. I will present this to the director. But then you have to come back. Feedback is very important. If they ask you for something, if they ask you for budget, for example, Because if not, what I see in many managers managers is they go to the community, they take these ideas, like, oof, like, oh, I'm going to share this. But they don't throw back anything. So what I do with my communities is say, what do you need? What do you want to see for pride? What do you need for, for example, I have um a case in
Addressing Caregiving Biases and 'Kind Washing'
00:35:43
Viole
Italy. the in italy
00:35:45
Viole
they the community detect a huge, the gender pod detect a huge bias of the leaders about mothers. If a woman have a baby, for example, when she returned to work, a lot of people tell, oh, what are you doing here? What is your baby? Why don't you stay at your house? So for that gender pod, the priority was to train the leaders about these biases, about caregiving. So what I did is, okay, tell me, what are they the things that you have heard? And we made a list. We look for a vendor and we share that list, the exact exact quotes to the vendor. And that were were the examples that the vendor used during the training. And I paid for that.
00:36:36
Viole
Because if not, I'm doing pin washing, community washing, diversity washing, and my favorite and new term, kind washing.
00:36:38
Alex
you
00:36:48
Viole
So let's be aware, let's be responsible, don't use people, and work with people and be there for the people. Managers of diversity, we need to be there for the people, not the people for us. This is very important for me.
00:37:06
Magda _she_her_
Yeah, i um I would add, remind that for diversity, equity, inclusion, you need a budget. It's not like, you know, something that you will do for free. Of course you can do some things, but when we talk about long-term perspective, it's hard to do activities without the budget. Because as I said, it's it's good to invite people from marginalized communities. Um, I truly also believe small actions can have a big impact. Um, so using pronouns or as a leader or as anyone in the organization, it's such important because I can confirm through my life experience. When I started to, when I was born, my parents gave me a name Mattie. I was going by Mattiek because it was softer.
00:37:59
Magda _she_her_
And when I started my transition, I was saying to everyone, my name is Ma, and my pronouns are she, her. And after being 100 times or 1000 times rejected, people laugh at me. I know ah how important it is that someone will start the conversation. So please, ah if you feel that you are ready to start the conversation, and for example, your pronouns are obvious for you, say it, make, You know, first move, say your name, your pronouns, and then the person will feel safe. The person will, you know, i feel like home and do not, it that activity not cost you a lot, but but for the people who are going through transition or non-binary folks, like people who each day are, you know, afraid to be rejected because we've been rejected.
00:38:57
Magda _she_her_
that means a lot and this is about inclusivity and you know as I said small actions can change something and I remember I was so happy four weeks ago when I visited Poland and you know it was it it was emotional for me because it's my own country ah and the manager who is responsible for 300 people after a small conversation when I explained to him why saying his pronouns it's such important because he never get it and someone first time ah someone explained to him not saying you need to use pronouns but said what I said about my story and he after this you know created a post on LinkedIn and other people started to comment other people
00:39:47
Magda _she_her_
realized why it's important. So it's important to spread those messages.
Spreading Awareness and Engagement
00:39:52
Magda _she_her_
So if you will like what we said, please share that episode, that podcast with your network through LinkedIn, through Instagram, and invite other people who might be interested in that topic because we need your actions. And if you feel you want to share it, please do it. That means a lot to for us. Thank you.
00:40:14
mahmoassy
thank you so much for
00:40:16
Alex
ah
00:40:16
Viole
I want to talk, but I don't know Alex if you want to talk because I i tend to talk a lot.
00:40:17
mahmoassy
and
00:40:20
Alex
ah I just wanted to say um I feel like, I think we said it in a way um ah multiple times, but I wanna be like super um specific with this. I feel like there's no way that you can teach or um make people learn about interce intersectionality if you do not have people who go through it um ah to help you teach about it.
00:40:36
mahmoassy
Thank you so much for this.
00:40:48
Alex
We cannot keep having white cisgender European or um just people that don't do not realize those realities because they have the privilege to to don't have to. I'm not saying that is a bad thing because of course not, it's just the world that we live in. um And it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to constantly be contacting people who go through intersectionality. You can go, you can do research, you can look for reference, you can
00:41:21
Alex
but ah use ah books, um I don't know, text, media. like There's a lot of resources that you can use, but please, if you do not live in it, how are you going to explain it? Because there's no way, there's so many nuances and realities that you're not going to be able to express and make people aware of. And I feel like it's super important because we keep seeing this every day. and The most important part is is people when you tell this, when you say this to them, they feel attacked. I'm not attacking you. I'm not saying that your heart is not in the right place. I'm sure that it is. But you need to realize that I cannot talk on behalf and of trans people because I have never experienced that, even though I am.
00:42:07
Alex
in terms of I do live in the inter interesting intersectionality. So please, um don't talk about realities that you do not know anything about. Find other ways. There's so many other ways. You don't necessarily need to bring people physically or online. There's so many other ways to do it if you don't have the budget of the ah the other the network. But I don't know. I'm sorry. I got a little bit heated, but it's just like I just don't understand how people do that.
00:42:36
Viole
It's okay, it's okay. People will need to to know what we feel. We are talking about human beings and feelings. And I i want to um to highlight this that Magda said about budget. When a company ah says to me, oh yeah, yeah, we care about diversity in my company. There is three, three very simple questions that you can ask as a speaker or maybe as an employee or a future employee if you're in a hiring process. Do you have a diversity department in your organization?
00:43:06
Alex
you
00:43:08
Viole
First of all, because diversity is something that ah someone in the HR department do if they have some free time or if because they are very passionate about people. So first question, do you have a department on diversity in your sector? Second question is, do you have a budget for that department? And the third question is, what are the policies and the protocols that you have? Do you have trans protocols? Do you have ah diversity policies? Do you have an anti-harassment protocol? Because for me, this is taking into account diversity, not just saying, oh yes, let's put those rainbow flags because it's bright and they don't even put the intersectionality flag.
00:43:57
Viole
so Three simple questions. And if someone for a company has listened to this, you can do this checklist also.
00:44:07
mahmoassy
100%, 100% such amazing insights. And I think it is ah also our role as employees, as diversity professionals, as as human beings in general, to hold our organizations and systems accountable for doing the work. And I think this is This is such an important aspect of all the work that that we're doing and this and message at the end of the day is also helping people people realize their role as change agents. They're not passive receivers of whatever the system you know brings out or the organization brings out.
00:44:38
mahmoassy
that They are active members of the system. They can be more active members of the system and can really exercise change.
00:44:43
Alex
you
00:44:46
mahmoassy
so I want to thank you all for all everything that you've shared today. It was such an insightful conversation. I think we could talk about this for hours. um So I very much thank you for for everything that you've shared and I will repeat what Magna said, like the importance of this conversation continuing. so If you're listening to this, do do interact with with the podcast. Leave comments. If you think that there is somebody that would be amazing for us to you know invite to the podcast and listen to what they say, please do mention them or tag us or or contact us in order for us to reach out to them and have you know enrich this conversation further and further.
00:45:25
mahmoassy
So again, thank you everyone for being here. You've been listening to Working with Identities. Today we talked about intersectionality. We're going to be talking about a lot ah more topics in upcoming episodes, so stay tuned for what is yet to come. Thank you everyone.
00:45:40
Alex
Bye everyone.
00:45:41
Viole
Thank you.
00:45:43
Magda _she_her_
thank you tell
00:45:43
Viole
Bye bye.
00:45:59
Magda _she_her_
Thank you.