Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Interculturality and leadership
10 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Working with Identities, I sit down with Tatjana, a DEI and culture expert, consultant, and coach, to explore interculturality in leadership
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Interculturality
00:00:00
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Working with Identities, where we explore the relationship between identities and our workplaces. Today, we're going to be talking about a very interesting topic about interculturality, and we're joined with Tatiana. Tatiana, I'm going to let you present yourself and share with us a little bit ah from your experience.
00:00:25
Tatjana (she/her)
Thank you, Mahmoud. um Yeah, I'm Tatiana. I'm German-Palestinian. um Grew up half my life in the Middle East and then in Europe. So that's my kind of cultural background.
00:00:37
Tatjana (she/her)
um a little bit of my kind of career life
Career Path of Tatiana
00:00:39
Tatjana (she/her)
journey. um Before I came into the space of working today as a coach in interculturality and diversity and inclusion, um I actually started did my journey as um in the space of international in international development.
00:00:54
Tatjana (she/her)
um where I worked many years in the Middle East, um working on similar topics of um social justice, social inclusion, ah representation, gender inclusion, um and inclusive leadership.
00:01:08
Tatjana (she/her)
So um from there, I actually moved into the corporate world just about seven years ago or so, when I went back to university and I did a master's in cultural diversity management. And then as my journey took me um to always different places, different cultures, um I kind of more and more moved into the space of focusing on inclusivity and inclusive workspaces and also inclusive topics of inclusive leadership and um effective, um diverse diverse teams, teamwork.
00:01:39
Tatjana (she/her)
So that's me in a nutshell. um Yeah, and i'm I'm happy to be here today and have that chat with you, Mahmoud.
00:01:46
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Thank you very much, Tatiana, for being here today. And it's very interesting as well because like the way the way this conversation rose, this of of generating this episode was because Tatiana was my coach on interculturality and she really gave me a lot of insights
00:01:54
Tatjana (she/her)
Thank you.
00:02:04
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
And a very new vision of how to view interculturality and understanding and in in a different way. um So connected to this, maybe Tatiana, you can explain for those who don't understand or don't know the term interculturality, what exactly is that?
Understanding Interculturality
00:02:22
Tatjana (she/her)
So interculturality in a nutshell, it's basically um about you and the other. So it's about identity. It's about um understanding who you are um within the dynamic ah aspects of what actually makes you who you are. So it's not just focused or bond born to what we understand as a static cultural background identity based on you know the the country you come from or the ethnicity or um the religion, um it's a goal it's much more dynamic in the sense that it recognizes um the many identities you carry based on your values, on your experiences, the belief system you carry in you.
00:03:02
Tatjana (she/her)
So it's also a very personal aspect of understanding who you are when we are speaking about interul interculturality. And it also um relates to her a sense, in a sense, about you know understanding yourself, self-awareness and other awareness. So being aware that there are other perspectives, other but people with very different experiences and understanding the dynamic of those coming from the different side of ideas, perspectives and how that kind of how you connect, collaborate, navigate and bridge.
00:03:37
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Yeah, yeah, this this this is for me was and like, in it really gave me a lot of perspective when we were discussing this in our sessions. And maybe we can connect this then to our first question that we have for today, which is, can you explain how interculturality can serve as a tool to understand and respond to individual needs rather than relying on generalized approaches?
00:03:52
Tatjana (she/her)
Thank you.
00:04:03
Tatjana (she/her)
Yeah, yeah, actually, um one of the my main reasons why I went actually into intercultural diversity coaching, and we're focusing more on inclusive in culture inclusive environments um is because I kind of my biggest critique to the diversity and equity and inclusion space is that we often try to, um you know, ah generalize so that we can excel quicker and, you know,
00:04:30
Tatjana (she/her)
scale basically in the work we do. However, this whole work of creating inclusive cultures, and more equitable societies, basically bottom line, more social cohesion is something that actually has to do with, it's a very personal journey. It is actually starts with each and everyone who engages or seeks to engage in these kind of processes of becoming a more diverse workplace, a more diverse community, a more equitable workplace and the community, as much as um you want to become an inclusive leader or an inclusive culture and in a workplace.
00:05:03
Tatjana (she/her)
It starts at the bottom line with understanding, you know, who are we as a society, as a community, and as ah I, as a person, and and what drives me, you know, what is what informs me?
Personalized Approaches in Diversity Work
00:05:13
Tatjana (she/her)
based on my values and belief system that I kind of gained throughout my may my first 15 years of life experience. And then gradually, as I grew up to be a full adult and engage in the workspace and in and society, you know what informs me? um And understanding that actually, in a sense, is a starting point um to understand what your needs are, where your your gaps are in understanding more complex environments.
00:05:41
Tatjana (she/her)
and then how to engage, navigate and connect with with with the super diversity around you. um So yeah, I don't know if that answered the question.
00:05:50
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Yeah, yeah. So it's like this journey of starting through understanding oneself and then through this journey, understanding how we interact with different people, with different contexts, and and and and through this understanding, we're able to foster a better understanding and collaboration with other members.
00:06:08
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Yeah, did get that right? Yeah.
00:06:09
Tatjana (she/her)
Yeah, exactly. it's so yeah, it really starts with ah basically the work on on yourself. um And, i you know, we say always the best leaders are the leaders leaders who understand where they're coming from, who they are and who they want to become and be.
00:06:15
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Mm-hmm.
00:06:25
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
And you mentioned something that I remember a lot from our sessions that ah and maybe you can we we can explore a little bit more, explain a little bit more, which is the separation between values and belief systems.
Values vs. Belief Systems
00:06:37
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
You mentioned it in passing, but I think it's a very it's ah an interesting separation that I think people might be very interested in learning a little bit more about.
00:06:45
Tatjana (she/her)
Yeah. Yes. So anyone who who goes through the journey with me on achieving personal excellence will at some point, yes, ah navigate through understanding their value system. And so when when we talk about value system and beliefs, we're talking about ah two so separate entities that actually elements that actually, you know, um ah integrate together and make us who we are in terms of how we show up and how we make decisions or react to situations and what decisions do we make.
00:07:17
Tatjana (she/her)
So but you know values is always what I say. um there There's nothing such as bad values. We all we all have um values that are great. And and you know I still have to meet that person that tells me greed is their core value.
00:07:32
Tatjana (she/her)
So values is something that we grew up with. we It becomes instilled in us through the families, the institutions, the communities, the social environment that we grew up in, even the the education then that we pursued, even the field we go into, you know, social science or the STEM.
00:07:47
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Thank you.
00:07:52
Tatjana (she/her)
All this kind of builds up into a value system, what how in terms of how we perceive what is right and wrong, what we think is ah good and bad, what we believe to be professional, what not. So values, in a sense, are a great thing to have. And I would say they're actually extremely important to have as a core complex to understand where we want to go in our life and and who we want to be.
00:08:16
Tatjana (she/her)
Beliefs, on the other other had the hand, is what kind of um motivates these values. So basically understanding our values, knowing that, for example, my core value is one of them is generosity.
00:08:29
Tatjana (she/her)
I grew up in a household where we always had our doors open, always hosted people. always i was always told, you know, this is what makes you Tatiana. This is our family. And so this is a core value.
00:08:40
Tatjana (she/her)
However, the way we live it, me and my brothers, for example, is very different. And that's based on our belief system that kind of started kind of being um ah contextualized as we had our own individual experiences growing up.
00:08:55
Tatjana (she/her)
Now, as I mentioned, privacy, I grew up to travel a lot. I studied in different continents. I moved and worked in different continents. So for me, my belief system definitely is a very different one than, for example, my brother, who basically um lived in Germany for most of his life after we moved there at the age of 11.
00:09:12
Tatjana (she/her)
And what is important is then to understand, you know, what is it that I believe behind generosity? if value If my value is generosity, you know, what is what what is it that I believe generosity to be, to look like, to feel, right? And that comes based on experiences I made through,
00:09:33
Tatjana (she/her)
traveling a lot and moving to different places. And so belief systems are always, you know, the the motor, if I say, for the for living our values. But that motor needs to be understood, because depending on my belief, I can accelerate in achieving goals that I have in mind. So if I want to become an inclusive leader, understanding how my belief system um motivates me to be that better person, that, you know, better leader who can be adaptive, who can be flexible.
00:10:05
Tatjana (she/her)
um And at the same time, it is important to understand what are my limitations with this belief, you know, because every belief, every belief, comes with kind of accelerators, so opportunities to achieve goals and visions that you have for yourself and for your society and workspaces.
00:10:24
Tatjana (she/her)
But it also comes with limitations. With every belief, you will find what we call a blocker. um Or sometimes if you go deeper in the psyche, we can call it fear. Fear that holds us back.
00:10:36
Tatjana (she/her)
Fear that makes us make decisions that are maybe not contributing to us accelerating based on our ah core values. So that's basically beliefs. Beliefs are the motor that kind of, you know, drive us. And actually, in sense, really is the very personal I, the motivators for for who I am or of how I show up.
00:10:58
Tatjana (she/her)
And that is key to understand, ah to and to to having to understand it in order to really become more self-aware.
00:11:06
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
like Just listening to you already like explains a lot of the conflicts or misunderstandings that can happen and in and in different contexts and specifically as well like in in the workplace. like It really gives a framework to have a deeper understanding of why we do things, why we perceive things a certain way.
00:11:26
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
And I think it also it connects a lot with what we talked about yeah earlier through this understanding of self to understand how to interact with another and to understand another person.
00:11:37
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
And through this dissecting of why do I do things the way I do things or why do I i perceive things the perceive things.
Interculturality in Leadership
00:11:45
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
So I think like this connects very nicely with the following question they have for you, which is how can leaders and organizations use interculturality to connect with people on a deeper level without reinforcing stereotypes?
00:11:45
Tatjana (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
00:12:01
Tatjana (she/her)
and ah That was a good question. And I think, you know, um what is key here is to understand what happens when you go go into this journey of intercultural competency development.
00:12:12
Tatjana (she/her)
You start actually unlearning all the stereotypes or, you know, kind of ideas you have about certain groups. And you start understanding the complexity of your own identities.
00:12:26
Tatjana (she/her)
and that of others. And so you start retreating. Often what I observe with with my clients is that they start retreating from assumptions, from making always assumptions and based on assumptions operating on, you know, engaging with others.
00:12:41
Tatjana (she/her)
So, um that That is ah the power of what you know the the power for what intercultural competency development offers you. When you start unpacking your value system um and when you start understanding your motor, your engine that is that is driving you, you know um and when you when you are willing to to lean in,
00:13:02
Tatjana (she/her)
and understand you know um what what what makes you act the way you do or make decisions the way you do, or speak the way you do, act the way you do.
00:13:13
Tatjana (she/her)
When you are much more aware what's motivating those actions, those behaviors, you somehow find this empowerment to kind of step over and look at people first as people, as the person, not, oh, this one from the LGBTQ ERG group, or, oh, this one was the hijab, the hijab, you know, you start seeing the person.
00:13:39
Tatjana (she/her)
And that becomes critical in any any setting. If you are dealing with a very diverse team and you want to be effective and striving, and even as as a company, you know, that if you want to experience growth, you will have to actually go down to understanding the people individually, and not just as a social group, but really see what motivates people as a leader and and and kind of work on that in ah in terms of adapting and leading with leading with adaptation.
00:14:11
Tatjana (she/her)
But in order to do that, you need that self-awareness.
00:14:11
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
That's
00:14:14
Tatjana (she/her)
So there's no way I'm going to understand you, Mahmoud, as the person and why you did what you did or behaved the way you do in my team meeting if I'm not fully aware how I'm coming across to you or if I'm not fully aware of why I'm reacting to you in the way I am.
00:14:32
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
definitely, definitely.
00:14:33
Tatjana (she/her)
And just something, sorry, Mahmoud, but that was something that I was actually thinking about that is a very good example that happens to me a lot when I was working with companies.
00:14:33
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
But also this
00:14:37
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
yeah
00:14:43
Tatjana (she/her)
um And when you you know when you start setting your values, oftentimes companies are very proud of their values, their company values that they pursue. And then you see, you know they get like these aha moments where like, why?
00:14:58
Tatjana (she/her)
Well, we have these amazing values of respect, openness, you know? um inclusion, but you know, why is it just not when we look at them, you know, go down and look at team issues, and you see all these conflicts?
00:15:12
Tatjana (she/her)
um in relationships, which is fact impacting you know the the performance. You start asking about why we all share the same company values, you know, and everyone will assign and say, yes, we have great values. we We all, you know, nobody will disagree with these great values.
00:15:28
Tatjana (she/her)
But then when you go down further and you start asking, well, what does this value mean to you? You know, you will start seeing how belief systems are playing out in everyone very differently. So until you crack that and understand, you know, what are the belief systems around those values that everyone holds based on their life experiences, you will never see this cohesion evolve.
00:15:53
Tatjana (she/her)
So if you want to achieve kind of this cohesion, um so where you know people can really focus on productivity and effectiveness and um and achieve kind of growth, you really do want to start looking at your intercultural competency as a leader, as a company, as a whole company, you know where do you stand on this?
00:16:12
Tatjana (she/her)
And then you know take take these steps towards engaging in a more understanding of you know belief systems around those values and creating a common kind of ah vision of how do you want to interpret protect these values as an organization, as a team.
00:16:30
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Yeah, yeah. And and ah the thing that comes to mind as well here is that the fact that all of this requires deep conversations, requires creating this safe space, right?
00:16:42
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
So do you like, what are some key strategies for leaders to create environments where people feel safe to learn, progress and express themselves? Because again, like going so and into such deep levels really requires the capacity to create the spaces for them, right?
00:16:59
Tatjana (she/her)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I always say your goal is not you. You can't create safe spaces. Safe spaces come to be ah because of your ah engagement style, your leadership style.
00:17:13
Tatjana (she/her)
So. so In general, I can say that we know, you know, it's not rocket science. We see this even in small family units. You when do kids feel safe or your teenagers feel safe to speak up and share, with you know, their issues, their their troubles?
00:17:29
Tatjana (she/her)
It's when they feel, you know, listen to, when they feel heard, when they see when they feel seen, right? when When I'm not coming in as as this, I'm the leader here, I'm the authority, this is what's going to be done.
00:17:41
Tatjana (she/her)
But rather when you're humble and you know that you don't know everything. And because I'm an adult, I'm not seeing the world the way my son or my child daughter would be seeing it. You know, because I'm not you.
00:17:54
Tatjana (she/her)
i I'm experiencing the the space that we are sharing right now differently because of my personal identities and but experiences, right? So understanding that we can't know everything at all times, being humble about not knowing and being okay with not having to be the authority, i think that is actually generally today um the the where I experience and see safe spaces being created.
00:18:21
Tatjana (she/her)
um Because again, um The world is changing and power dynamics is not anymore like a straight line from up down. You know, authority doesn't work anymore this way. with the And we have a like a lot of young people going into the workforce, you know.
00:18:36
Tatjana (she/her)
um So there is this also question where as a leader, I say, you know, we need to or as a person with authority, Ask ourselves, well, what makes me in this time, in this space, a good leader that can support my team, support my organization, achieve inclusivity, achieve diversity, whatever your D&I goals are, or even your business goals.
00:19:02
Tatjana (she/her)
But asking yourself, you know, what is it? Lean in, be curious, inquire. That's how you start creating spaces where people feel safe and empowered to share. but what they think, what they feel.
00:19:15
Tatjana (she/her)
um and And that's, I think it goes down to, it's a very it's a simple ingredients to to a personality, being self-aware and humble about you know our our limitations of knowing.
00:19:28
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
I love like this this them like this framing of leadership as well as like this role of support, this role of being people oriented, being curious about the people that surround you and wanting really for them to thrive you know in that sense.
00:19:42
Tatjana (she/her)
Thank you.
00:19:44
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
And as opposed to a more authoritarian figure, you know like somebody who comes on top, but like to see like this shift, as you mentioned, like this shift in power, in that sense and viewing leadership from from another perspective, specifically with, as you mentioned, like new generations to have different ways of seeing leadership and stepping into the workplace and the importance of doing this shift.
00:20:07
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
But I also like i can imagine like some leaders might face some challenges when trying to implement this intercultural approach, specifically if they're coming from a different approach that they have been implemented, right?
00:20:22
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
So have you faced like with the leaders that you worked with, maybe specific challenges that you can share with us? What kind of challenges could they expect while doing the shift?
00:20:32
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Because I can imagine for some, the shift might be bigger than to others.
Challenges in Authentic Leadership
00:20:38
Tatjana (she/her)
Yes, of course. um And one one thing is, you know, when working with the intercultural competence competency tool that I kind of apply in coaching and one thing is, you know, it's a kind of what we always kind of stress. It's it's a developmental process. It's a journey, right? It's a journey towards achieving personal excellence.
00:20:58
Tatjana (she/her)
um And in that journey, um you know, um it's not about um kind of, um you know, assessing where you're at and then kind of going to the next goal, but it's actually more evolutionary kind of accept the hardest thing is for many leaders.
00:21:16
Tatjana (she/her)
um and ah is to kind of understand you know that there is no end to to growth. There is no end to it.
00:21:28
Tatjana (she/her)
I mean, the goal the goal is actually you know to continuously ah learn to adapt and to um and to be able to collaborate and and and bridge and navigate differences. right We're constantly in in change mode.
00:21:42
Tatjana (she/her)
We're constantly in in volat operating in volatile um situations, environments. right um We have a super diverse workforce and society. um So, you know, what but what what is the challenge for me oftentimes is when i work with leaders who actually do um assess on ah on a high level of adaptation, but then to help those leaders kind of...
00:22:08
Tatjana (she/her)
um turn to become humble, you know, so to understand that, yes, you are very, very good at identifying differences, you're very good at getting everyone on the same page and and getting things through, you know.
00:22:23
Tatjana (she/her)
um However, oftentimes these leaders struggle with maintaining their authentic authenticity, and and saying, well, you know, actually, I'm more of this type and i don't you know and and And I don't like doing this, but because you know this is what this generation, let's say, if you have a young team, you know you have to kind of work with a very young team and you're adapting to their kind of ah ways of doing things.
00:22:44
Tatjana (she/her)
And even if you're successful, it drains you because it's not your natural ah habitat. it's like what what you generally It's not your default way of operating. you right And then what becomes important is to be able to kind of maintain authenticity um Be true to yourself and then just kind of, you know, learning to be kind to yourself in a way um to say, you know, this is hard on me, but I will lean in because it's working and, you know, you're getting the results.
00:23:12
Tatjana (she/her)
um but as But at the same time, really to acknowledge and and kind of be ah um your authentic selves, you know, um ah lot of times. And I bring this always to the family unit. I always say, you know, um I don't need to be loved.
00:23:26
Tatjana (she/her)
as the leader in the house, but I need to be respected. And, you know, so for me also to earn that respect that I'm always trying my best to adapt to the changing and you know environment and and and modes of of my, especially my teenage child, you know, um requires a lot of effort for me. And it is mentally draining, physically draining.
00:23:47
Tatjana (she/her)
And yet, um you know, ah i earned that respect by by kind of always saying, you know, look, this is me ah it being I'm very aware of my limitations and I I speak them. i formulate them, and I only require to also be respected in that. So, and that's exactly that point is where generally you will see in teams, whether whether you're talking about the home or the or the workspace, and it's in this frictional space is where you can overcome those challenges of consistently having to
00:24:20
Tatjana (she/her)
adapt and and kind of you know navigate differences is by acknowledging and being humble about you know the difficulties it brings to you as a person because default you are different wired because of your own experiences.
00:24:36
Tatjana (she/her)
Does that make sense?
00:24:39
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. Well, um just like for us, like to also like to connect everything and also see how um how how these conversations keep evolving. Maybe I would love to ask you as well, like, how do you see interculturality evolving in the context of specifically like DI work, especially in leadership and organizational culture?
Intercultural Competency as a Hard Skill
00:25:04
Tatjana (she/her)
Yeah. So um one thing in the European context, I can say very much my experiences, um there's very ruri little space space or or acknowledgement around, you know, actually um the impact intercultural competency, you know, development can have.
00:25:22
Tatjana (she/her)
um even within the diversity, equity, inclusion space, right? So if you have a company and they have that department, even in these departments, um oftentimes I find we fall short in recognizing actually the hard skill behind you know actually investing in developing people's intercultural competency. And I call it a hard skill because there's nothing soft about actually learning how to be a better intercultural communicator, conflict resolution.
00:25:53
Tatjana (she/her)
um you know these These are hard skills, knowing how to navigate and and resolve problems in a way that is you know and supporting the organization and the team, everyone healthy, move forward.
00:26:06
Tatjana (she/her)
These are hard skills. And so for me, oftentimes I'm a bit buffered and I see the challenge in kind of moving more into this kind of learning journey as as a requirement or as part of your D&I programs. um in integrated in HR, learning and development, you know, ah there' there's there's still a lot of space and and and and room to explore it and engage and invest in this kind of hard skills.
00:26:35
Tatjana (she/her)
and For me, these are more essential hard skills for success, whether you have a D&I department or do any D&I work or not. So, you know, in the US, there's a backlash right now happening around D&I space.
00:26:48
Tatjana (she/her)
But you know whether that or not, the reality is that we work with different ah personalities was many different many different identities from for many different cultural um experiences, you know be it based on on the values they have, the beliefs they have, you know the identities, the personal identities they hold true to themselves.
00:27:10
Tatjana (she/her)
I mean, as again, we are just such a super diverse ah global community and we are very mobile. So we're moving a lot around and reinventing ourselves here and there.
00:27:21
Tatjana (she/her)
So then it becomes super crucial for any organization, even whether you work global or local, is to actually have these hard skills to be able to really engage in intercultural competence, competency to be able to bridge and navigate and actually build cohesion around, you know, the very many differences we bring to the table.
00:27:46
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Super, super interesting, Tatiana. Thank you very much for this. I don't have any more questions for us today, but I want to leave a minute in case you have any final thoughts you want to share with our audience.
00:27:59
Tatjana (she/her)
um Well, yeah, maybe the only thought I will just say is, you know, um it's a journey becoming an inclusive a team or an inclusive organization um is ah is a journey that the that definitely has structural components to it that need to be pursued, pursued, pursued in terms of policies, you know, um,
00:28:19
Tatjana (she/her)
But the bottom line from my experience now, having lived and worked in so many different places around the world, it it all all starts with with what we believe we can do with our beliefs. And it's just the motor to everything. what Whether we achieve what we want to achieve or not, as a person, as a company, as a as a family, it really goes down to and to our to understanding our our belief system and how that drives us.
00:28:48
Tatjana (she/her)
So yeah, I think that's what I'll end it with.
00:28:50
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:52
Tatjana (she/her)
A thought for everyone to take on and to think about it.
00:28:53
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
that
00:28:57
Tatjana (she/her)
And to seek intercultural competency, not as ah some really soft skill that you kind of get to learn or you expire.
00:28:57
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
yeah
00:29:05
Tatjana (she/her)
No, it's it's absolutely, there are a lot of ways where you can actually start ah developing these skills, which are absolutely necessary. There are hard skills,
00:29:16
Tatjana (she/her)
um And there are tools out there. There's a lot of things you can do to excel in becoming this inclusive leader, this inclusive person, this person who contributes to cohesion um for everyone.
00:29:31
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you very, very much, Tatiana, for being here today and sharing such amazing knowledge and insights with everyone listening. I hope that you've enjoyed ah this episode of Working with Identities, where we have explored interculturality and how to implement it in our workspaces.
00:29:52
Mahmoud Assy (He/Him)
So yeah, thank everyone. Bye, Tatiana.
00:29:55
Tatjana (she/her)
Thank you. Thank you, Mahmoud. Bye-bye.