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Creating Safe Spaces for Dialogue
25 Plays3 months ago
Our podcast "Working with Identities" continues to explore the power of dialogue. In this episode, we’re discussing the importance of creating safe spaces for open conversations in the workplace. This isn’t just about physical spaces, but about building trust and fostering an environment where everyone feels comfortable to speak up. I had the opportunity to be joined by Agustina and Silka, two experts in creating these environments.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Podcast Goals
00:00:21
mahmoassy
Hi everyone, welcome again to this podcast working with identities. and In this but podcast we are working and we're dedicated to fostering meaningful conversations between identities and companies with each episode highlighting the experiences, challenges and talents of individuals from different social and demographic groups.
00:00:41
mahmoassy
and we are working on on creating a constructive space where stories are shared, solutions are explored, an understanding is built, ultimately promoting a more inclusive workplace and society.
Today's Topic and Guest Introductions
00:00:54
mahmoassy
Today we're going to be talking about a very, very interesting topic, creating safe spaces for dialogue. My name is Mahmoud, I'm going to be your host, and we have two amazing individuals that are going to share with us from their experience on how can we create these graces these safe spaces at work. So I'm going to start by passing the microphone to Silka. Hi, Silka. Thank you for being here today.
00:01:19
Silka Gurabardhi
Oh, hi, Mahmoud. Thank you so much for having me. And hi, everyone. I am Silka Grabardi, born and raised in Albania. It's a time of change of transition, I might say.
00:01:31
Silka Gurabardhi
Wasn't the the most ideal ah ah situation to grow up to, but I'm very, it's what has shaped me and maybe the person that I am today, to be honest.
00:01:31
Agustina
Thank you.
00:01:40
Silka Gurabardhi
So now I'm very grateful for that that that experience as it gave me gave me a reason to start fighting for the right thing and at a very like and speak up at a very very early on, I think. And now I've lived for 16 years in different European countries. I speak four languages. I get to call the beautiful, diverse Berlin my home. But yes, that passion, that activism and that passion for ah social social justice hasn't changed much.
00:02:14
Silka Gurabardhi
The thing that has changed is that due to the right opportunities, I guess, I kind of turned it into a profession. And now my diversity, equity and inclusion work is not driven anymore on just what what is because it is the right thing to do.
00:02:31
Silka Gurabardhi
I think it is a bit more strategic, focused more in promoting equitable practices.
00:02:32
Agustina
Thank you.
00:02:38
Silka Gurabardhi
and empowering everyone to thrive that so that we all can benefit us as individuals, corporations, organizations, and society as a whole. For that, I'm quite grateful to my current company, to be honest, not just because they gave me the opportunity to turn one of my biggest passions into a career, but also because they are very committing into doing diversity and equity and inclusion in the right way, so to say.
00:03:05
mahmoassy
Great. Thank you very, very much, Silke, for being here today and very much looking forward to everything that you're going to share with us today. I also want to pass the metaphorical microphone to Agustina. Hi, Agustina.
00:03:16
mahmoassy
being here
00:03:17
Agustina
Hello. Hello, Mahmoud. Hello, Ciocca. Very passionate introduction from your side, Ciocca. I'm really glad to join this conversation with you both because I know the commitment to diversity and inclusion. Me, myself, I'm Head of People and Culture at Bridge for Billions, and I'm also our psychologist a specialized in positive psychology, organizational, and also chief well-being officer.
00:03:42
Agustina
and I'm passionate about human beings that's my passion and I've been working in the HR field for about and more than a decade actually 11 years in different settings from multinational corporations to startup where I am right now And I have this inner tribe to yeah support people to find their true selves, to be able to live their lives authentically. So when I was called to join you in this podcast, I was really glad because m diversity and inclusion is such a topic that really speaks to my heart. I'm from Argentina originally, but I've been living in Spain for about 18 years already.
Defining Safe Spaces at Work
00:04:22
Agustina
So a long time and I have ah two kids here and I have a partner here so it's kind of like I'm a citizen from everywhere in the world and happy to be here in this conversation with you both.
00:04:35
mahmoassy
Amazing, amazing. Thank you again both for being here today. I would like to kick us like kick us off in the conversation with really defining what it like the title of the of the of this episode that we're doing. So we're we're talking about creating safe space. And I would love to to really for us to define at the beginning what it means for to create the safe space. What is a safe space and how does it look like at the workplace?
00:05:06
Silka Gurabardhi
no
00:05:08
Agustina
lovely question to start with. and I can start if you want. To me, safe space equals to psychological safety, which is a concept that I love and that I really work hard for companies to make part of their day-to-day basis. And a psychologically safe space is just an environment where employees and people in general feel secure enough to be themselves, to speak up.
00:05:36
Agustina
to share what they think, to show themselves as they are authentically, without fear of judgment, reprisal, retaliation, discrimination. So it's a place where actually they can be themselves and they can behave in the way that it's it's in tune with what they are thinking and what they are feeling. And in in organizations how we can see this, where we see this when companies prioritize actually practices and policies that are linked to that psychological safety space.
00:06:06
Agustina
so individuals can have this conducive environment to be themselves and not fear that they're going to be judged, they're going to be fired, they're going to be discouraged, they're going to be in like put on a label.
00:06:20
Agustina
and discriminated even ah ah in ah ah in a positive discrimination. Like this is a group and of people from this minority. This is a group of people from this other minority. So maybe when when they feel psychologically safe, they don't feel that they need to be targeted or labeled. And they are we they have freedom for we who they are.
00:06:44
Silka Gurabardhi
Well, everything that I was in a set and
Fostering Safe Spaces through Communication
00:06:46
Silka Gurabardhi
ah beautiful. No, she said it all. Like, I mean, there are so many like, if we Google it or anything might come like different definitions of safe spaces and.
00:06:56
Silka Gurabardhi
And yes, the core, I truly, I truly agree with you, Agustina. It is about that psychological safety, so to say. So it is for me, a safe space is just like a place where everybody can be their authentic self without fear of discrimination, without harassment, and like really truly, truly, like, and also like it has to come from a, a, ah it's it's basically a place of respect, you know, you have to to feel the respect.
00:07:26
Silka Gurabardhi
So yes, ah and how do we foster it? I think very much important is like in the workplace is just to to cultivate a culture of like being, just by being curious, you know.
00:07:36
Silka Gurabardhi
you We're talking today about creating that the dialogue.
00:07:37
Agustina
Hmm. Hmm.
00:07:40
Silka Gurabardhi
So yeah, promoting those open communication, creating opportunities for learning. And and creating that environment where everyone is like feels like safe to to really share their ideas and to share their ideas and to share their concerns. And also like to to empower them to just take risks. It's very important. I think one of the most important thing is like It's you can make mistakes, you know, where I'm not saying there are no mistakes. There are going to be mistakes and everything, but it's like, why not turn them into an opportunity of of learning? ah So to say, so it is about being intentionally inclusive in this case. And and it's very crucial in every diversity, equity and inclusion work. It's I think it's at the core of it, because we are truly asking everybody to bring their whole self at work.
00:08:34
Silka Gurabardhi
which is not an easy task, especially if you're like thinking about, and and and why do we do this? As DI or many other DI practitioners, of course, we want to do this because we want to live in a world when everybody three feels free to be themselves and and to express their their opinions openly. But we also, we want to do it because once you you create this,
00:08:58
Silka Gurabardhi
this space for everybody to be themselves. Like, you're going to create more well-being, more productivity. You're going to get those great ideas that's going to help us to learn, make smarter decisions, create better products. And it's going to, as I said, benefit us all, like our products, our people, our customers, the communities to serve. But also a very specific component when we're talking about DI. We are also working from people from marginalized groups and underserved communities
Challenges and Strategies for DEI
00:09:30
Silka Gurabardhi
that most likely at a certain point or maybe a lot in their life have felt that discrimination, have felt judged, have not felt heard, and we are asking them to bring their true self at work, you know, and to trust us.
00:09:44
Agustina
Thank you.
00:09:44
Silka Gurabardhi
So it has to be it has to be very, very intentional. We can do this and we can get the best out of people and their to help them reach their full potential by creating the safe spaces.
00:09:57
Agustina
I wanted to add there something because I think Silke you mentioned a word that is really powerful and that is respect. And like you said, many marginalized groups and people for underrepresented minorities maybe felt like they weren't able to do that for such a long time.
00:10:14
Agustina
and they were the opposite, oppressed, that as a company, asking them to do that, to bring their true selves to be authentic, it's going to take a lot of, yeah not only a company changing their mindset, but also supporting people to do that as well, to really construct that space that saves space for everybody and for people not to feel forced and not to feel not respected and obliged in a way to okay I need to be my true self but what is that what is being your true self when sometimes you don't want to show yourself because you're already covering a lot of psychologically a heavy baggage for what you've been through so I think
00:10:57
Agustina
and what you mentioned also the training it's key here and the training rooted in respect so we understand that even though as companies we want this and we want people to thrive and to be the true selves it's not gonna be like pushing a bottom and overnight okay everybody is authentically who they are and they dress as they want to dress and they share what they want to share and they like put their mindset out there because it's gonna take a lot and not only from companies, also from individuals, to really say, okay, I can trust this space. So it's something that is not only psychologically or soological sociologically and from companies, but also from individuals, and we need to support them in this journey.
00:11:42
mahmoassy
hundred percent And I think like what I love is I think like you both indirectly says something that is very important is that this safe space is not like part of the work. This is the entire workplace that we're generating, right? It's all the interactions that we're generating.
00:11:59
mahmoassy
It is not just me creating, oh, here you can come and you can complain about things. It is me truly creating an entire work environment where people truly are active. And at the last point that you made, I think like it's very is very crucial to understand this concept of of safe space because it As you mentioned, like it you need to understand the realities of people, not just because your you know you want to create a safe space, people are just going to you know be very open automatically with you and whatnot. It takes effort.
00:12:30
mahmoassy
And I think this is, this is also like what we, what we're going to talk about right now as well. Like, because one of the major questions of us understanding these, this safe space, because it's very important to, to like it's a fundamental aspect of diversity, equity and inclusion. And we depend usually on the input of employees to prove that help us shape this space or this environment that we want to to create. So that the main question that I have for you now is kind of like, how can we generate engagement with such initiatives. Did you face any challenges before maybe in regards to this like wanting to create a safe space but maybe people are not engaged enough and you want to know like how can we get them to that point?
00:13:14
Agustina
You want to go silica?
00:13:16
Silka Gurabardhi
yeah oh Very, very, very important question. is like I would love likely to literally like go to the core, because I bet everyone that is working in this space has faced many challenges. As I said, we say it's the core, but it's like a continuous working towards it, you know and a continuous learning. And I think one of the most important things is, like yes, its it it is about active listening. It is about seeking that input. It's like our work is based on that.
00:13:45
Silka Gurabardhi
But for me, it's ah ah it's very important also in how we do it. you know like how do we like It's very important, as we said, as much as we want to think that we have created the same space and not everybody is there yet.
00:13:51
Agustina
Mm hmm.
00:13:59
Silka Gurabardhi
Maybe we are not communicating it right. Maybe some people, because of their own background and because of their own lived experiences, still don't trust us yet.
00:14:10
Silka Gurabardhi
And so I think it's also very important, like, yes, continuously seeking that feedback, continuously listening, but also having it in different systems, you know. We do our engagement service, sure. We literally have to look at ah at all those comments. And I think one of the important things to really get engagement is get the feedback and act on it because if you lose the that trust, if people are sharing and you're not listening to them and yeah one of the challenges with engagement service it is that especially in big corporations sometimes there is a lot of feedback that comes and little comments but you have to take the time
00:14:49
Silka Gurabardhi
And at least communicated that you you read them and you're you're taking you're doing further investigation in the case might be or but like let's please, please recognize them. And second, it's very important, although we have engagement service that are anonymous, per se.
00:15:07
Silka Gurabardhi
Still, I really believe we still have to give like, for example, a whistleblower line or like a way of reporting that is managed by a third party that people can still feel safer if they really don't trust us yet with their comments or even the internal engagement survey. So I think it has always to be there. Third is about creating those relationships, get as many of these open conversations with people, you know.
00:15:33
Silka Gurabardhi
challenge there is like I try my best to really have face-to-face interactions and I try to have hybrid meetings so I make sure that everybody's in the room because you have to make sure to listen to everybody but yeah I'm one person and I'm physically in one of the places and so it is it is hard to to really think like you have listened to everybody you made sure that everybody is giving their input
00:15:47
Agustina
Mm hmm.
00:16:00
Silka Gurabardhi
But I really do, like, for example, I trust a lot in our local DI champions, as we call them. So I partner with other people. They create their own safe space, their own community, and they partner with us to give me that feedback. And I try my best. And I think ERG's employee resource groups are an amazing space to have ah to create those engagement and initiatives and to really create that safe basis for especially marginalized groups
Empowering Employees and Role of ERGs
00:16:27
Silka Gurabardhi
or like underserved or to represented communities.
00:16:29
Silka Gurabardhi
feel free to open up and to share really their experiences and their insights with us. It's going to help us a lot. But also with that is like we have other issues, you know, like there are some challenges in that as much as you can do it right.
00:16:40
Agustina
Hmm. Hmm.
00:16:45
Silka Gurabardhi
And I think at OilX and my current company, that is one of my responsibilities to help build the BRGs and help support them and and yes sometimes like we do have budget for them except supporting you know but in the same time for example it's very important to recognize and reward this work and and although for example in our company I think we have found a way to recognize and reward them I see so many other people that would love to get engaged to help us drive DI to help us build this safe place to help a business community where everybody can be heard and and we can take real actions together. But yes, it's too much on top of their job. you know In the ideal world, you would have actually, you would give like a couple of hours within the normal working hours for them to work in this.
00:17:39
Silka Gurabardhi
So yes, so there are many ways to like I would say, yes, we have to really make sure that everybody's being heard and and really show that you are recognizing it and taking some actions. So to keep like that, that first to have that buy in that, yes, we are doing it. say Our stakeholders believe in us, but also get more people to work with us to drive the AI within the company and create the safe spaces.
00:18:05
Agustina
That was wonderful and a really complete answer.
00:18:07
Silka Gurabardhi
Oh, sorry, just long, sorry.
00:18:09
Agustina
no that was That was wonderful and i was and by listening to you I was wondering and How do we ensure to reward it so it doesn't look like a like a window shopping, like, okay, we're diverse and inclusive, we're having these policies or these projects and ideas. How do you reward it so people, so it's not like, and Like how we say in psychology, when you give a price or a punishment you know for behavior, because that it's and at a very basic level. So rewards need to be linked to something deeper in human beings for human beings to keep behaving that way. Otherwise it's just, okay, let's just do you know what we are asked to do or what we think socially it's required right now. So I was wondering about that reward system, how important it is to route it in.
00:19:00
Agustina
in the in human beings and the way we pursue our inner motivation and and therefore the behaviors that we tend to carry on with our lives because otherwise it tends to be superficial from I don't know I was thinking that and also I have two challenges to share that maybe you experienced them as well well 100% what Silka you were mentioning about transparency andop and open communication and active listening and sharing what are we doing with the feedback.
00:19:31
Agustina
straightforward to the stakeholders and also to the company and also to the world, like saying, okay, we're taking this input. What are we doing with this input? We're taking the time, we're really need, we're gonna create this other strategy, like really doing a follow through of what the input is for, because otherwise people get tired and drained to share their feedback because they see that nothing is put into action. So the two challenges I faced in my career in HR,
00:20:00
Agustina
One of them, I think we all companies share it. It's the skepticism about and things put into action when sharing feedback. So people tend to think, oh, what am I going to share? You know, what they're asking me, it's going to be the same.
00:20:17
Agustina
Management is not going to take the time to really look at it from fresh eyes and finding solutions for this. So why bother? Why bother shedding my voice? So that skepticism really is difficult for us.
00:20:32
Agustina
And from my time when we re we we do these engagement surveys and we ask in these open conversations because and we receive this response and we want to empower and encourage people to keep sharing, but at the same time it's true that sometimes we have a roof.
00:20:47
Agustina
to with the extent of the things we can do and not in and many companies like what you're saying Silca you're having a role that is specifically for this but from my side it's HR head of people and culture and sometimes adversity is kind of like a nice to have thing that we can do from time to time, but it's still not something structural, strategic, you know, with somebody who's really handsome business and doing things for that greater good. So I think m that challenge of skepticism is huge and we need to acknowledge it. And also the way I responded when people said this to me directly, it's like,
00:21:29
Agustina
Share it. Share it. Because maybe it will take for you to share it two, three times, four times. But that's your like that's your inner self saying what you really believe and who you really are. If you don't say it, how are you being authentic? So that's how we also do, and empower want people to be authentic through sharing what they think, regardless of the effect that we'll have. And from the companies, we need to be responsible for that. And another challenge I found And I thought if this one and is something that if leadership teams take too hard and connect upon it, that will be a major change in companies. I had people telling me, yes, I share feedback once with somebody from the leadership team. And then I was approached by another member from the leadership team about the thing that I was sharing. Therefore,
00:22:21
Agustina
I don't know who to trust anymore. So we go back to the psychologically safe space. If a team member is sharing something personal or is sharing something, the mind don't mind the personal, it's sharing something. And you really don't have that team member's okay to share it ah ah or to spread that as if they were the news to other colleagues, don't do it.
00:22:45
Agustina
And if leadership team does it, that's really a huge damaging reputation for the psychologically safe place and the the policies and the practices we want to have to ensure people really feel listened to and know that what that they are taking into account.
00:23:02
Agustina
yeah So that was another challenge and it happened more than once. And the one with the skepticism, which is still happening, but a we respond by trying to empower people to keep sharing, keep sharing and to communicate that from what they share, we took action. Even if it's not the action that will do take like 180% change, a degree change, but there are things that are coming and that way. So I think that's very key.
00:23:34
mahmoassy
I think what i'm like what I'm extracting from what you both shared is like the importance of being very responsible of this engagement that that we're trying to generate. right like First of all, like when you're asking for feedback, why are you asking for feedback? like because I feel like also there are a lot of companies that just ask for feedback all the time.
00:23:54
mahmoassy
And then like, what are you going to do with this information?
00:23:55
Agustina
Yeah.
00:23:57
mahmoassy
If you're not in a that position right now to really respond to this, how are you going to like, you need to understand what is going to be the response for the people that are taking from their time to share with you these these insights in that sense, right?
00:24:11
mahmoassy
And also being responsible with the information that is being shared as I was saying, I just mentioned, like not sharing it with other people and stuff like that. So like from, like I'm getting like like from from what you both said, like the importance of being very responsible and and really like dealing with
Safe Spaces in Remote Work Environments
00:24:25
mahmoassy
but this.
00:24:25
mahmoassy
and i and and I was reflecting a little a bit also like about you know how we have a lot of like data protection laws and policies and whatnot. I think we kind of need to deal with feedback with this sense of responsibility as we deal with you know personal data sometimes.
00:24:39
mahmoassy
you know In that sense, like how can we you know, understanding truly why why we're asking for all of this and and and and taking the time to respond to the people, at least to respond to the people who are taking the time to to do all of this.
00:24:40
Agustina
Hmm.
00:24:53
Agustina
Totally.
00:24:53
mahmoassy
So I want to add a level of difficulty to to the previous question.
00:24:57
Agustina
repeat
00:24:58
mahmoassy
and And like, I think like, it it becomes a little bit even more challenging to work on this engagement and the creation of safe spaces when you're working in a remote or hybrid work environment, right?
00:25:10
Agustina
Yeah.
00:25:10
mahmoassy
And Silke, you mentioned a little bit as well, like you have teams in so many different places. I know obviously also they i you know there are members in various parts of the world. So how do you generate this safe space in such a context?
00:25:25
Silka Gurabardhi
yeah i can I mean, I haven't, I don't have this. I'm going to be honest. I don't have the solution yet because this is actually the biggest, the biggest challenge we face.
00:25:35
Silka Gurabardhi
in a sense since many companies now work like either fully remote, hybrid mode as my own company or like somewhere back at the office and everything. but like Whereas I appreciate and I don't want flexible working going away, I want to work in a company that is a hybrid somehow and it gives people the option to choose because as a DI practitioner I've seen making wonders you know like if people can work from home we have yet that some of them have more accessibility and they can do it more so it's been it's been wondrous like for for flexible working but yeah it is because like as I said like sometimes the best things happen just because I run to somebody and And they see me face to face and they know, oh, I can trust her.
00:25:59
Agustina
Thank you.
00:26:22
Silka Gurabardhi
She's not just like a head on a computer anymore. I know she cares about the eye the way she smiled. and She feels warm. You know, like these little things make so much a difference when we're talking about creating that safe space where everybody can be themselves and share their their deepest fears or concerns.
00:26:40
Silka Gurabardhi
and And how do we do that? with you you just you I think you have to overly communicate, you know, that they are still a smart part of this group.
00:26:48
Agustina
Hmm.
00:26:49
Silka Gurabardhi
We still want them to and and try to help them and understand how they're feeling, are they feeling included?
00:26:55
Agustina
Hmm.
00:26:56
Silka Gurabardhi
And are there as much part of this engagement in this company as the people that we we run at the at the water cooler? And yes, sometimes i've been i've I've had the challenge that like sometimes, as I said, from a roundtable that happened ah almost like by chance, because ah ah three or four people come with the same like feedback on the policy or like something they're missing, and it turns into this amazing like like brainstorming roundtable of a safe space where everybody's sharing.
00:27:27
Silka Gurabardhi
And sometimes you're like, OK, but we forgot to ask it about that, people that are at home. you know So it's all about even the little small things, you always, as I said, you have to be very inclusive about the way you process your learnings, your trainings, your webinar. Even if I'm hosting in the office, I have to to broadcast it. It has to be hybrid, because I work in a hybrid model. So you have to be intentionally very, very inclusive of the way you process a matrix.
00:27:54
Silka Gurabardhi
is it a Is it nicer to have a face-to-face? Yes, it might be nicer, but then just do a roundtable with the people there that are at home. And and always, if something comes up in this meeting that other people are not aware why we started looking into something or why we're doing this new policy,
00:28:12
Silka Gurabardhi
please, please, please communicate to the people at home, create a meeting or just ah ah a very crafted email and say, it happened from an informal communication, but we also want to hear from you. Is this something that concerns you? And we want your feedback and we want to keep you updated where we're going with this.
00:28:30
Agustina
Totally. Totally what you're saying, Ciocca, like being really mindful and intentional to how we process information, how we manage to create or co-create all these processes and even making that informal space that we share in an office in an in office setting to the remote work. In my case, yes, we do have lots of remote workers, half the company, and in different countries like from South America to Africa, and so we really need to
00:29:06
Agustina
ah aside from being aware of the time schedule differences, because it's not the same. And also that's something that can be challenging for remote people, because they need to connect at the core hours of the company, if it's a big company. And that's also something that we need to look into, to be respectful of other people's time schedules, because otherwise you're asking for ah somebody from South America to connect at 7am maybe.
00:29:31
Agustina
So those practices about how we connect, when we connect, what time, is it a good time for other people who are remote? Is it not? Shall we change it? Is it a bad time for people who are in a European time zone?
00:29:43
Agustina
if it we move the meeting at 7 p.m. because it's better for South America to give an example. So those questions we need to permanently ask ourselves and also ask the remote workers. but the One of the first things I did when I joined this company, Rich for Billions, is having calls with all the remote team members. We need to listen to what they were missing, if any, what they liked about how they were working.
00:30:10
Agustina
And many many answers, I got the the same training topic in a way, like, oh, we don't have enough perks and benefits, or we're missing out of career advancement because we have not seen in the in-office setting. Therefore, it's harder for me to show what is my performance, right? And things like that are challenges for remote team members, as well as a time schedule that I mentioned before, but if we are managing or leading teams that are across the globe.
00:30:41
Agustina
So by sharing this and by listening to what were their concerns, in we were able to okay say, we need to look at this and this and that. Maybe we cannot do a lot in impacts and benefits because ah we we need to establish some policies there or there. But maybe we can do like regular coffee catch-ups between remote team members having sessions for them to really share how they were feeling, create a specific channel as well.
00:31:10
Agustina
And like Silke was sharing, and when we launch a policy and when we think about something that can affect the whole company, being mindful of how to connect with them, to include them in the decision making process, it doesn't have to be a policy finalized until you have also remote team members to be champions of them and agree with them because at the end it will also affect them.
00:31:32
Agustina
So I think it's a matter of, and you said it, and i I love the way you said it, like being inclusive and intentional to what we do with our diversity. Because many times, and I see this from even experience, not from only myself or my work, but from colleagues, from major, we are being diverse in the sense that we have diversity.
00:31:53
Agustina
So it's like with you we have diversity. Good, we're a good company. Yeah, but how are we intentionally moving and responding to and connecting with diversity? How are we including them? And it's not just about policies. It's about the process, like Simka mentioned, of how we come up with those policies, how we communicate them, what are the factors or variables that we're taking into account. That takes, really, in companies, that should take a person doing just that.
00:32:23
Agustina
Just that, and that is a lot. Not just a tiny thing, then it's like squeezed in a nature role, and we can do something from time to time. I'm not focusing for having a person doing this in companies, and I'm happy, Silke, that you're sharing that this is your experience. But it doesn't happen in many companies, and I think right now we are in a good time.
00:32:47
Agustina
a and an eye opener time maybe for people and for companies to really know that this is the way to go if we want to not only the like have this happy tribe in people working, which is psychologically proven to improve results, wellbeing and everything related to a business needs. that That's, that's a fact, but also to really connect with the world as where we are today and not being left out.
00:33:19
mahmoassy
100%, 100%. And I think like what I was really sticking with me right now with what you're saying is kind of like the important, like how sometimes we're just blinded by our experience in a workplace and think that this is the experience of the workplace, right?
00:33:34
mahmoassy
And this happens with you know a lot of things, and it is also up applied applied when it comes to like having when you when you have some remote workers and some workers that are at the ah the location itself that are not working remotely. Because you just assume, me don't you don't stop to think, oh, there's another group that is not experiencing the same experience that I have.
00:33:53
mahmoassy
right And how this, what I like, I think about how but like how common remote work has become in different in different companies is that it's pushing companies to start having this, you know you need to always think about the other people's experiences.
00:34:09
mahmoassy
And I think this is a very good practice but eventually you know that also benefits inclusion overall, not just for remote workers, but for ah for for for every everyone. so So I think this is key.
00:34:19
Silka Gurabardhi
Love it. look Yeah, exactly.
00:34:20
Agustina
Yeah.
00:34:22
Silka Gurabardhi
That is like what I was talking about when we were talking about like, we have to make sure we're listening to everybody. This is such a good exercise. If you just start with like focusing and like having they being part of the conversation, actually, it can just like cascade to other aspect of like seeking out those diverse views.
00:34:41
Silka Gurabardhi
And and
00:34:42
Agustina
Yeah.
Role of Leadership in DEI and Safe Spaces
00:34:42
mahmoassy
Exactly. yeah yep
00:34:42
Silka Gurabardhi
and yeah.
00:34:45
Silka Gurabardhi
that
00:34:46
mahmoassy
So I have more question for you, and I think it's just something that I think is is very important. You touched on i think both of you in different moments, and also we touched on at the beginning.
00:34:56
mahmoassy
And I think it's something that makes or breaks somebody's experience at work. It is something that highly affects how how much a person engages with those safe spaces. It affects immensely psychological safety, and that is leadership.
00:35:11
Agustina
Hmm.
00:35:14
mahmoassy
So my question for you is how can we promote practices of safe space and inclusive leadership amongst leaders and managers of an organization?
00:35:14
Agustina
Hmm.
00:35:26
Silka Gurabardhi
hell. We're going to be a repetitive, but we're going to go. thus This is key.
00:35:31
Agustina
stick
00:35:33
Silka Gurabardhi
i As much as safe spaces are key to DI done right and and welcoming and not just welcoming, but like really valuing in and and and those contributions that, as I said, is going to benefit to us as humans and also our services and products.
00:35:33
Agustina
yeah
00:35:51
Silka Gurabardhi
As much as our key to DI and leadership is key to to to this practice per se. you know and led's In my experience, we have like in years that I've been working in DI, we have different trainings or or different and that sometimes we just develop them or we change them or we replace them depending on the needs or like where we are in our DI journey. One that is constant is inclusive leadership, and this is for all managers.
00:36:23
Silka Gurabardhi
Because let's be real, it's important. And we need that tie-in. We need that our accountability from leaders. It has to, like, it's a cliche, but you lead by example, you know, in a sense.
00:36:34
Agustina
Yeah.
00:36:35
Silka Gurabardhi
And and every every inclusive ah leadership medium training that we do, it differs a little bit. But like the core of it is about creating safe spaces.
00:36:47
Silka Gurabardhi
and And why? Because like the manager is going to sell the tone of this theme, so to say. you know It comes from from that. And another thing that that we always e coach people is like,
00:36:59
Silka Gurabardhi
Yes, start by sharing your own experience, you know, if you admit that you don't know everything, but it's okay, because it is okay not to know everything. If you cultivate that culture of like, just open up, I'm going to listen to you, it's okay, as I said before, to make mistakes and things like that, you're going to get there.
00:37:18
Silka Gurabardhi
you're gonna get to that vulnerability and and the team they're saying like, oh, okay, if it's admitting that and they are admitting that and she's doing that, I can maybe also take a bit more risk and i and trust a bit this room more. And to our next, for example, we have like, we we went even further, we really like build what is called, we call them DI meetings in a box that are literally pre-formatted workshops that helped team to like teams to facilitate conversation on DI topics.
00:37:52
Silka Gurabardhi
And you reach that to the team and it starts like, and and one of the first meetings that I think the first one is about talking about explore identity, you know, so you know,
00:37:52
Agustina
Hmm. Hmm.
00:38:01
Silka Gurabardhi
small circle, the manager starts first saying about what's important for their aspect of their identity that have shaped them and drives them, you know, and this is in a safe space.
00:38:04
Agustina
Hmm.
00:38:14
Silka Gurabardhi
It says like everything that is being said there, it's out of curiosity to get to know each other a bit more. And it's no judgment is not going to reflect on everybody's work. So it starts with the manager. And and and it's basically just sharing little pieces as much as you're comfortable with, but like just understanding where others are coming from, what is important for them. And then it goes in the next meeting within the team that it goes in the importance of inclusion. Are you ready now to say, when did you not feel included? What was something that bugged you? And we always ask the manager to start first.
00:38:48
Silka Gurabardhi
you know ah share moments when you were included and share moments that you maybe weren't included and goes step by step. And this is, a I mean, I don't think this is gonna solve everything, but like we really need to have that and to create that when we say leading by example and and just creating this safe spaces for conversations and getting to know each other better, understanding each other better.
00:39:05
Agustina
Hmm. Hmm.
00:39:11
Silka Gurabardhi
Because this is gonna be golden for those people that still are not trusting to breathing fully themselves at work. And one last thing, like I'm just thinking out loud now, I work for a company that we are very like flat hierarchy.
00:39:27
Silka Gurabardhi
And I myself truly, truly believe that it's not just on leaders.
00:39:27
Agustina
Mm.
00:39:32
Silka Gurabardhi
As much as the leaders are important, I think every one of us has power in ji because you still are doing a job you're still are presenting you still have a voice and if you imply and you're like bring that to your work and you you implement those those di essentials you're still going to influence the di in the company you're going to influence the culture You're going to help. But as I said, the leaders set the tone for the team. And I don't want that is especially it is the employees responsibility to fight for it, you know.
00:40:10
Silka Gurabardhi
That theory of the leaders have the power to either grow in that team, on your career, they have that power. so They also have to create a safe space for you in a sense. Why should we ask people like, oh no, be courageous, take risks? when you I completely understand if they don't feel safe to do that, and why should they risk their work?
00:40:32
Silka Gurabardhi
you know so it is the So that's why it's very important. like If you want to get the best of out of your team, you have to create the safe place. It's not on them to speak. I mean, there are people that speak up, but some people are just scared of retaliation, losing their job. They struggle to get there. And as I said, especially we cannot make this the work or like the responsibility especially of people that come from marginalized groups and backgrounds and underserved.
00:40:59
Agustina
Hmm. Hmm.
00:41:03
Silka Gurabardhi
They have already a lot of things to deal with and they don't have to fight the fights for all of us. So it is it it is on the leaders in a sense and and and um another thing Another thing is like, yeah, like like just like thinking about it is like, if I am a ah ah woman and I'm in a team meetings and when I walk and a male colleague is talking talking all over me, so to say.
00:41:33
Silka Gurabardhi
And my manager doesn't say anything about it. The things doesn't change. I'm going to the next meeting and I'm sharing, I'm sharing my piece and I have again, somebody, a male colleague talking over me, what I'm going to feel. This is not a safe space for me to talk, not even about work.
00:41:49
Silka Gurabardhi
You know, I cannot hear my ideas. So you're just going to stay quiet. You're not going to talk anymore. You're not going to trust your team. You're not going to trust your you. This is not a safe place for you. So you're not going to speak because you still owe it to yourself to protect that job. We need we need our jobs, so to say, and then and some more than others.
00:42:11
Silka Gurabardhi
And, and yes, so like, I want what is going to happen. The result is I'm not going to share my ideas. And maybe I have a brilliant idea that's going to help everyone in the team and it's going to make our services and product, but yeah, you're just going to sell. So it's a very simple example, but that's why it's so important for the leaders to, to get in this space and to understand you want the best to get to the best of our teams, create the safe space, create an inclusive environment and lead.
00:42:40
Agustina
and lead I everything you said. I loved it. And especially, I and really am against of psychological safety being like, okay, I have high self-esteem and I have psychological. No, it's not a personality trait that you carry with you. And we shouldn't expect that from employees and leadership.
00:43:03
Agustina
It does set the tone for psychological psychological safety and it does have that responsibility even though, as you mentioned, every person can share their voice and and you know have a saying and raise a hand when somebody's wrong.
00:43:17
Agustina
even Some people don't feel comfortable about about doing it, some other people do. But the tone needs to be set by leadership because that that's the example and and because the they are kind of like role models for the rest of the team. So they need to act like modeling that inclusivity and that same space for everybody to speak up and to talk.
00:43:41
Agustina
I love the workshop idea about having topics and creating that conversation. I love the fact that it's conversational and not just like, ah ah I don't know, filling a survey and that's it, like making room for those conversations to happen, open dialogue, open safe space for dialogue. I think in the index examples you provided, you are doing that very well done. And um I I think It needs to be a conversation around, for sure, from leaders. And I think it's key, what you mentioned, that leaders are the ones starting the conversation and setting the tone and asking questions and reflecting. And my fear there, but I don't know if this happens or not, is that it will be, I don't know if the
00:44:28
Agustina
If what the leaders share about their identities and their personal stories feels relatable enough for people to still feel that they are being seen in there in their diversity. And that is a struggle that I have also when I speak about diversity and inclusion myself also because we all need training. We all need a lot of sensitivity training. We all need to know in not to know before I speak because for sure we can make mistakes and we can own up to our mistakes and put them as part of being vulnerable and live in situations but I think
00:44:59
Agustina
but I encountered it many times and from colleagues from other companies also in HR, is that, yeah, it's kind of like a show off or a window view of about talking about your identity, but without really connecting to the identity of the other person or making them feel included. But
Intersectionality and Shared Responsibility
00:45:17
Agustina
I don't know if this, you were able to bring it up in those group sessions and conversations, or if it's not an issue that presents, what do you think?
00:45:26
Silka Gurabardhi
and Amazing question. In my experience, as I said, like we usually we I'm not in all those sessions. There is like a team it's a team exercise, you know but to to be honest, it is a bit about like just going into like very nitty-gritty, how much ah in our inter intersectionality and how much things like diversity what it is about and and everything like there is maybe a background and you find out that of course somebody feels a bit uncomfortable because they have a more privileged.
00:45:58
Agustina
Hmm.
00:45:59
Silka Gurabardhi
like background and more privileged status because of who they are, how they look, this the color of the skin.
00:45:59
Agustina
Hmm.
00:46:06
Silka Gurabardhi
Then you see that, that actually they were like, why are you asking me to to to to share my the aspect aspect of my identity?
00:46:12
Agustina
Yeah.
00:46:12
Silka Gurabardhi
And like, I'm not asking you to share like aspect of it. I'm asking you to share what has shaped your experience.
00:46:17
Agustina
Mm-hmm.
00:46:20
Silka Gurabardhi
And sometimes more often there is a lot of diverse, like there is a lot of differences, but more often than ever, a lot of people are going to connect in somehow because they say, like they see in the screen is like, I'm a family person.
00:46:27
Agustina
Mm.
00:46:32
Silka Gurabardhi
My family was very important for me. Oh, I have an accent. I i don't speak English very well. And you they're still going to find it's actually, I thought is it brought people closer.
00:46:44
Silka Gurabardhi
Yes, sometimes it is a bit, at a hard task if you are like if you have people like from a very different background and way more privileged situation against underserved communities.
00:46:55
Silka Gurabardhi
But in the same time, they're going to see also this, but oh, I also really believe that that's also what drives me and that is also part of my culture and my identity.
00:46:59
Agustina
Hmm. Hmm.
00:47:04
Silka Gurabardhi
And maybe it's, for example, faith, religion.
00:47:07
Agustina
Hmm.
00:47:09
Silka Gurabardhi
You find people that are from, you find an atheist and you find people that like really find that although one is like a Muslim and one is a one is a Catholic, just because their faith means so much to them, they just find that, oh, see, we can, although we have a different religion, faith has really shaped us and it's important for me.
00:47:24
Agustina
Mm.
00:47:31
Silka Gurabardhi
or like little things. So it is, it is, it is an exercise. The idea is that there is nothing wrong. Like you just share aspect of idea that shaped your experience. So. We are not the shaming some people. are like That's another thing. It's not about, like it's not about the bowed like oh,
00:47:49
Silka Gurabardhi
look at the privileged ones. Look at them with that amazing upbringing. And I know it myself, because I'm a DI dei practitioner, which has lots of privileges. i'm the I'm white, I'm straight. But then when I talk to people, then I say like, well, ah but I didn't have a very privileged upbringing because of that and that and that, you know, and they just like get on the layers, you know.
00:48:15
Agustina
Thank you.
00:48:17
mahmoassy
I think like something that is like yeah that is very important that and I can summarize a bit where you both mentioned is the importance of shared responsibility of understanding that this safe space is not doesn't fall only on the on the leaders.
00:48:33
mahmoassy
But the leaders, who as you mentioned a lot, do set the tone. they too They do give the example. And it can be through maybe sharing from their experience. It can be like by creating the space, by being the first people to open up in that sense.
00:48:47
mahmoassy
And it also is about how they maintain the space, if they allow certain actions to happen in the space, where they say, this does not happen here.
00:48:54
Agustina
Hmm.
00:48:55
mahmoassy
then that Because that gets perpetuated within the environment, and it happens very, very quickly.
00:48:56
Agustina
Hmm. Hmm.
00:49:01
mahmoassy
And just to add also to to to to the question that Agustina made, I think also, <unk> I think it's to understand as well that it's about having this genuine curiosity about people and their experiences and whatnot, and also recognizing our privileges, because it's not it's not it's not it's not an oppression ah ah oppression Olympics, you know, like, oh, I'm more oppressed than this other person.
00:49:16
Agustina
Hmm.
00:49:22
Agustina
Yeah.
00:49:23
mahmoassy
It's about recognizing where we are. And they're like from the recognizing where we are in this you know and in in the the the societies that we live in and the work environments that we inhabit, it's also about, OK, I know where I am. I recognize where I am. And I'm very curious about where you are in that sense and your experience and how it is for you in that sense. And I think it's about really transmitting this this message underneath.
00:49:52
mahmoassy
We have reached our last, our at the end of our our time here together, it was such a beautiful, beautiful conversation. I just want to like give you maybe i like to like i like two minutes to maybe share any last words that you might have or anything maybe that you felt that you wanted to share and maybe didn't come up in all the questions that we we discussed today.
00:50:15
Silka Gurabardhi
Well, you did the most beautiful closing with it, like literally the way you summarized my answer, I was like, I was blabbering. Look at my mood. I don't know if I can top that, but no, like literally, like, as I said, save spaces. It's it's about all of us. It's about the importance to understand the importance of it. But I really, really think, like you said in my mood right now, curiosity.
00:50:38
Silka Gurabardhi
It's not a competition. It's just getting to know each other and respect each other, just to remember that. It's like
Continuous DEI Conversations and Closing
00:50:45
Silka Gurabardhi
everybody has come to this life with certain privileges or not. And they had a journey somehow. And if they're willing to just learn and be curious and accept others, it's ah ah such a beautiful thing. And this is how we create safe spaces.
00:51:00
Agustina
Well, nothing to other, curiosity, connection, empowerment, but not pushing people, but allowing them to connect with their freedom and setting the tone from companies to leadership to what we want to see in the world, not only in the workplace, but in the world. And I think these conversations are key and hopefully will be eye-opening for many people out there working in these areas or not working in these areas, have one thing to jump into these areas because we need a lot of professionals that are putting their hands and their hearts to to this. And it's not something that will happen overnight, but we see, we saw changes and we keep seeing changes. So I think, I'm getting goosebumps speaking about this, but we see changes from people feeling included, feeling thriving at the work because they feel connected, they feel respected. And we saw the opposite as well. So I think if we choose the path of freedom, connection, curiosity, and
00:52:01
Agustina
enhancing curiosity, if if that's a training that we can add to leadership, enhancing curiosity, because many leaders are not curious enough, maybe. I think that's the way to go. So very, very honored to have listened to Silka, to have listened to you, Mark, because I know how you ah ah speak from your heart in these manners. And to me, it's a pleasure or to have shared this time with you and learn from you.
00:52:26
mahmoassy
It's a pleasure to have listened to you both. I think you've shared such amazing insights. Like it's this conversation is golden for me. and and And so yeah, thank you again for coming here today. And for those that are listening, stay tuned for more episodes that are coming up where we're going to be discussing other elements of ah ah diversity, equity, and inclusion. How can we keep generating this conversation between identities and the workplaces?
00:52:56
mahmoassy
thank you everyone thank you silica thank you augustina
00:52:58
Silka Gurabardhi
Thank you both, it was a pleasure.
00:52:59
mahmoassy
you
00:52:59
Agustina
Thank you.
00:53:00
Silka Gurabardhi
Thank you so much, great job, loved it.
00:53:00
mahmoassy
you