Transcript
mahmoassy: Hello, everyone. Welcome again to another episode of Working with Identities. This is your host, Mahmoud Asi. I'm a diversity consultant. I'm very happy today to be ah to bring on this conversation with two amazing guests where we're going to be talking about ah being a person of color in the workplace. I have here two amazing people that I'm going to pass on the microphone for them to present your cell themselves, and I'm going to start with Garissa.
mahmoassy: like katisa Thank you for for being here today.
Karessa Malaya: Hello, Mahmoud and Don, how are you? Hello to the listeners. ah My name is Karasa Malaya. I'm a social media manager and also a writer and photographer. I'm based in Madrid, currently residing in Mosteles. And I am a mother, a single mother of an eight year old boy and I love reading, I love my plants, and I am currently reading Madam Arphoses of Kafka.
Karessa Malaya: but
mahmoassy: Oh, nice read. Nice read. Thank you very much for being here, Carissa. And we have also Dawn. Hi, Dawn. Thank you for being here.
Don: Thank you for having me here, Momod. And nice also to be with you, Karasir, as well. So hi, everyone. um So my name is Don. I use the pronouns he -him. I am global DNI manager for an organization called Henkel. It's a German organization. I am based in Amsterdam. um I don't have any kids, but I have two fur kids. I have a cat and a dog.
Don: um and ah originally I'm from India um and yes and also I am also a yoga teacher so that is something which I do outside my office job um and I'm also passionate about animals and also D &I is something which I'm doing full -time so I'm very passionate about this topic and I'm happy to be here.
mahmoassy: Thank you very much for being here today. I'm very excited for today's conversation. So let's ah jump right into it actually. So as a title in like to entails, we're going to be talking about the experience of people of color in the workplace. But I think the first thing for us to do here in this conversation is to discuss what does it mean when you say a person of color? What do you think?
Karessa Malaya: Do you have a manual with some sort of definition in your department, Dawn? I'm really very curious.
Don: ah Yeah, I mean, I guess it's it's quite a complex one, right? So people of color is a very broad com terminology. I think it depends on the which region you go ah that become much more relevant in that region. Generally, when we talk about people of color, it's non -white, someone who is non -white, someone who is not European, or ancestry origin, that is a broad term we normally use for people of color.
mahmoassy: Yeah, how do you understand?
Karessa Malaya: Yeah, it's it's always relative to to to the nor to the normative, um to the standard, right?
Don: Yeah.
Don: Exactly, because in India, like if if I'm talking, if because I'm from India, so we don't really have people of color, but then you have skin tones that plays role when it comes to the workplaces, when it comes to the social media, when it comes to the how the representation is happening in the ah Bollywood, which is the movies, there's like the skin tone is placing much more bigger role. But when it comes to Europe, which is where I'm based, when you talk about people of color, whoever, which is non -white will be under the umbrella of people of color, I would say that way.
Karessa Malaya: Yeah, that that's the same where I came from, i'm from the Philippines. So when you talk about people of color, you also refer to non -whites, but we also have the skin tones. So the people that you usually see on the media or, well, yeah, the beauty standard would always be lighter than the standard, um you know, more common brownish, dark brown skin tone.
Karessa Malaya: And there would be, yeah, like a more, at least when I was younger, ah as a girl, there would be a more direct um discrimination against people with darker skin tones.
Karessa Malaya: Like you would be just called right out ugly, right out um excluded from certain social circles.
Don: Yeah.
Karessa Malaya: So that changed, of course, here here in Europe, like the discrimination based on skin tone is a bit more covert, but it's like it's included in the code when when they when they see you and when they read you, they have that coding.
Don: yeah
Don: And that I think for me also, like growing up ah in India as well, ah if you have a dark, and we even have like, what do you call that advertisement for fair skin. So they said, if you get fair skin, put the screen, then you will get a job. Basically you are, ah you are eligible to even apply for a job. If you put some, like all these screens make your skin lighter. If you're darker skin, you are not eligible for this job. Just by the looks, you can get a job. So it's like, it was engraved, like how the skin tone plays a big role even to get into this good job. So kind of like related to what we are facing at the moment. So I guess it depends on which countries and which region you are. ah The people of color, it's basically like it can be like, it really depends on the melanin in your skin, right? So how the melanin, melanin content in your skin is impacting your social experiences and your career basically.
Don: it's for me it's now anything about it's crazy that we looked at this advertisement and at that point i thought yeah we should be doing this and i was also putting so much of cream so that i will be also employable yeah unhappy
mahmoassy: Yeah.
Karessa Malaya: Same.
Karessa Malaya: Same. It's like there would be the before and after commercials where, you know, before you're like dark skinned, you have messy hair. You're alone. You're unhappy.
Karessa Malaya: Nobody looks at you. Even, you know, birds and cats and dogs stay away from you. And then, oh, ah use this.
Don: Hmm. Hmm.
Karessa Malaya: um they have this like sort of package complete with soap, facial cleanser, lotion, you know ah body lotion, facial lotion, and then like after a month of use, oh, ah you brighter complexion, you're fairer, and people start approaching you, and you probably even get married.
Don: and you're happy and you're happy and you're happy and you're a millionaire, you have a good job. yeah Everyone wants to be a friend.
Karessa Malaya: Exactly.
Don: yeah
Karessa Malaya: It's like it's um connected to your notion of success, right?
Don: Yeah. yeah
Karessa Malaya: Well, growing up, there were very, very few references in the arts, in the culture, in, you know, professionally as well, even in sciences and academics that, you know, are brown, brown skin.
Karessa Malaya: So
mahmoassy: Yeah, it resonates a lot what you're saying because I remember such also um commercials happening in in Egypt and how I would see them and the kind of the same thing, like how just using the screen changes your life completely and stuff like that. So it really, I think it's ah it's a common ah past trauma, if I might say, in that sense. Yeah.
mahmoassy: um Well I think like one of the things I want to elaborate as well here is interesting because like there is a new like um I don't know like I would say more or less given more or less recent debate with a term or maybe not so recent but the term person of color where because the term person of color is basically as you mentioned at the beginning is a term that
Karessa Malaya: Yes.
mahmoassy: is in comparison to white individuals, right? So it's like everybody that is not white in that sense, right? um How do you feel about this term terminology? You feel like this is the best way that we that that we identify you know like ah people. Do you think it's important first place to group all other peoples that are not white? Maybe this is, maybe that action i as well as important specifically in context where we want to tackle discrimination in that sense. so What is your opinion about the term as well?
Don: I mean, I mean, maybe I can start. I mean, my personal opinion, I think sometimes we got so stuck by the names. I think we need to think about broader perspective of what is behind what we are trying to achieve. ah And I think person of color, it's kind of like you just created terminology to classify um the struggles faced by people who have melanated skin.
Don: um So, specifically specifically, I'm looking at from Asian perspective as well. um If you are lighter skinned, you are much more ah successful. You are much more ah able to get good jobs than you are darker skinned.
Don: i guess The main point for me is that addressing the issue um rather than going into, should we find um find a different terminology for this or not? So I think that is where I stand behind because when you talk about person of color, it talks a lot to me specifically about the challenges faced by a person who has higher melanated content in their skin. So if you're darker skin, you do have much more struggle ah compared to some someone who is lighter skin that can also have Indians who are pollinated and even in african and African diaspora, if you look at it, even in the African diaspora, the challenges faced by someone who is light skin and then someone who is highly darker pigmented skin is completely different. So I would say in that direction, for me, the name itself brings a lot of notions regarding the challenges faced by people who are pollinated skin.
Karessa Malaya: Yes, I i agree. there' There's something deeper in that in the terminology, right? And I also struggle with it because I came here in Spain when I was 17 years old, so I was just about to enter college. And it was it was weird because i I spent, before coming here, I spent 17 years considering myself substandard because of my skin color like among the cousins i'd be the fat black one you know like just outcast and when i came here people would be like envious of my skin color and then i i noticed how men and women would literally burn themselves under the sun just to get browner and they would
Karessa Malaya: do the reverse that was advised to do in the Philippines to make ourselves whiter. They would make themselves browner by putting coconut oil, I don't know, coke, you know, all those all those kinds of, you know, harmful substances in their skin. So it's like, is it really about color or is it about who wears the color?
Karessa Malaya: because I have seen very, very toasted, very, very burnt, formerly white European people who use that skin tone as a status quo.
Don: Oh.
Don: Hmm.
Karessa Malaya: Like, oh, they have money to go to the beach on summer. they you know But when it's on us, all poor people, poor tourists or, you know, um migrant invasion.
Karessa Malaya: I struggle a lot with that. So, um on that um and in that light,
mahmoassy: Yeah.
Karessa Malaya: Also, there's, some I don't know if it's still used in other countries. um Don, I don't know if in Amsterdam, flesh color, flesh color, skin color. You know, when you describe color for, yeah, that's like a skin tone.
Karessa Malaya: for For women, it's always with the stockings in winter, right? So, but yeah, give me a pair of flesh -colored stockings. It's like, flesh, what do you mean flesh -colored? So it's like, yeah, I struggle a lot with that. And I tried to teach my son as well because he'd be like, please pass me the flesh -colored pen.
Karessa Malaya: what What do you mean flesh colored? I haven't found the solution to it yet. I'm still on the journey.
mahmoassy: Yeah. i do I mean, I do see the the importance definitely of understanding the, you know, that going beyond the words, right? Like that when we focus so much on the words, we do not, we we do not forgive enough energy to the things that do matter, right? And and you both highlighted something that is very important is that what while ah Whilst we're using a term that groups a huge number of individuals within that term, we need to understand that the realities of such individuals is different even within that in that sense, right?
mahmoassy: So it does not mean that every single person of color would have the same experience.
Karessa Malaya: Exactly.
mahmoassy: Also, what you highlighted, Karissa, is very important because
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: there are people of color that are white passing. forever no like that they They belong to an ethnic group that would be, that you would categorize this ethnic group as people of color, but maybe they themselves do not, they have lighter skin, right or they they they might look, why say they would pass for a white person in that sense.
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: right And the experience of that individual is usually different than a person that is visibly a person of color. right
Don: yeah
mahmoassy: So I think like all of this is is very important. I think like we can also like dive deeper into this, like how, you know, also like people from Latin America, for example, that might be ah that might identify as white in Latin America would experience a different status in, you know, they come to Europe or if they go to the United States, etc, etc. I think it's important as well.
mahmoassy: To realize that when we're talking about these social categories, they're always about the contact between different individuals within or within a system right and how that produces different experiences.
mahmoassy: So speaking of these experiences, I would like to actually ask you the following question, which is, why is it important to discuss and address challenges faced by people of color in the workplace, for example? Why is it important for us to have a conversation like this conversation?
Don: Yeah. I can start, and also you can jam later.
Karessa Malaya: No, no, no. your Yes, yes, yes.
Don: ah
Karessa Malaya: Go ahead. I'm very interested in in learning about your your experience in this.
Don: ah ah so
Don: i think I think the reason because is that we all have brains, right? So as long as human beings have brains, we are biased. and this ah right So every time that is the one mechanism our brain is always doing, we always making shortcuts. ah So one thing which was was very striking still to me is that whenever you think about kindergarten teacher, you immediately think about a female.
Don: I immediately think about females still when I heard the name kindergarten teacher. So it's in a way that our brains are so wired to make quick decisions and that also implicitly what has happened within the workplaces that we look at specific roles that has been gender -specific, and that's also be racial -specific.
Don: For example, I'm Indian, so people normally assume that I am in IT, and I am the worst person to be in IT. I have no clue about anything to do with IT. If somebody tell me, I don't remember, one of my colleagues tell me that, hey, my computer is not working.
Don: It looks like you can be a person who can help me. And I'm like, did you try to press the restart button?
mahmoassy: I'm glad.
Don: He pressed the restart button, it worked, but I'm like, you know, the point of like, I am not the IT person. um so
mahmoassy: yeah
Don: Because of that, I think that was quite a funny one, but that also impact the way we are promoting, we are hiring people within the organization. so And ah people of color has always always been, ah not been seen at the, and not been visible at the top management level. If you look at the big multinational organization, now it's changing. ah But when you look at historically, the top C level, there is no lack of representation.
Don: and then it doesn't it's it's normally it's not really happening that you're you're consciously not discriminating it's just implicitly um unconsciously we are making decisions and we are these people are not going through the pipeline and various studies also has been conducted in uk as well
Karessa Malaya: Thank you.
Don: So the same as resume, ah you put a white ah sounding name and, or for example, an Asian name or South Asian name sounding name. So um so the ah the Asian and South Asian sounding names have to apply for five or six times more. The resume was exactly the same to even to just get into an interview.
Don: ah So this is exactly the reason why we need to have the conversation so when we have the conversation you make people aware of okay i am actually bias you start to have the conversation people that people are much more aware. ah Then people are much more conscious whenever they doing the decision because many of us are not.
Don: implicitly like we are not actually discriminating people it's just our brain you look at someone you already put them into the box and you think that okay this person is not suitable for this job and this is why i think it's really important to have that open conversation it's not about blaming others you behaving this is about having the conversation making people much more aware and i think that's that's exactly why we should have conversation once you have the conversation then i think people will start to think and start to make changes
Karessa Malaya: I agree with that. I think it's it's necessary to to put it on the table because people, I mean, at this age and time, there are more people who would be discriminating unintentionally than intentionally. Or at least that has been my experience. And I would like to keep my faith in that. And I think when we operate off the autopilot, we can be more aware of how we create safe spaces.
Karessa Malaya: for everybody to just feel they can go beyond surviving in that space, that they can also bloom and they can also develop. And, you know, this would sound like so CSR, but I really believe in synergies. In my experience, my skin color has always been code for, oh, she can't know that much or yeah you know, in whatever level, may it be language wise, um anything technical on my work in social media, or when I was a practicing economist, and people would just maybe be
Karessa Malaya: I don't know, they feel cheated out of their own biases because i'm I mean, I'm not a genius, but of course I studied my um expertise. I'm a naturally curious person. I love languages. And then they'd just be shocked that I could speak ah Spanish and French aside from English and Tagalog. And I would know things on, you know, economics, like, well, that that's what I studied.
Karessa Malaya: It's my it's my college degree.
Don: the
Karessa Malaya: But as Don said, they were just pigeonhole you in in the case of Filipinos, you know, in care and um services, which it it's not it's not bad.
Karessa Malaya: There's nothing bad with it. And I'm proud of of that. but almost all of my family, you know, our nurses and engineers, but I think we should help also other people to open up their minds. I think but we'd gain more. I don't know, at least we'd have more fun because, you know, you just get the awkwardness out of the room as soon as possible and then we can start relating with each other, connecting with each other on even terms.
mahmoassy: i really I really like ah what you said because like I think like my vision of of this stems from the idea that we design a lot of processes and systems with a certain person in mind.
mahmoassy: right like We create the hiring process, for example, a specific person in mind.
Karessa Malaya: Yes.
mahmoassy: And then when we chock with, like when we meet another person that is not that person that we had in mind or like less connected or less similar to that idea like ideal person that we had in mind, we you know become we create these obstacles for that person without sometimes without us noticing and sometimes without us noticing.
mahmoassy: I think of the challenge is for different minority groups, in this case, ethno -minority groups, is that um they need they you know we're constantly trying to adapt to a system that was not created with us in mind. So I think that the work here and like the importance here is of such conversation, as you were mentioning, is like highlighting ah why and how the system you know, ah makes it difficult for for people to enter different processes and systems and whatnot.
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: And the importance of us redesigning this structure in order to ensure that we truly are creating, you know, inclusion in where we are.
Don: Yep.
mahmoassy: So since we're we're starting to dive deeper into these challenges and you met you highlighted a lot the impact of bias and stereotyping and how we put people into categories like, OK, you're from this group, I see you as this, as opposed to opening up our minds into the, you know, the merit of possibilities that people can, that that people have. I would love to, for us to dive deeper into understanding more of the challenges that you think people of color face in the workplace and how do these challenges impact people both from a professional point of view, but also from a mental wellbeing perspective.
Don: Do you want to go first, Karisa?
Karessa Malaya: Go ahead Dawn, that's my son.
Don: I think one of the main challenge I think I personally face as well is microaggressions.
mahmoassy: Thank you
Karessa Malaya: but
Don: right So it's not it's it's it's it's not something which is so big, but it just starts to accumulate. It's just build up and build up and build up, and it just frustrates you.
Don: And the microaggression, it's something which is not happening, it's happening everywhere, right? So I live in Amsterdam. So something similar, I always experience that if you go to a shop or a restaurant, end so if I'm with my white friends, so they ah the the way they treat them is differently than the way they take my orders. It's like, I remember they were very friendly and then suddenly they look at me, yes.
Don: you know, what do you want? so and So one of my friend actually did pick it up and they are like, hey, that's hes been quite hostile to Don. So I'm like, I'm so used to it at one point. But then what, how is being translated into workplace and is that ah you have, so if you are a person of color, I'm not saying everywhere, ah but you do have ah people will be more, more scrutinizing your ideas.
Don: um So the same idea, if it has been sent by someone else, they will immediately buy the idea and then you will be more scrutinized. And ah there is also the opposite of microaggressionist called microaffirmation. So someone will be given more credits for the ideas and then you as a person of color, you give the idea, they will take it.
Don: But some of the credit space being given to someone. So when these micro aggregates are building up, it is it is stressful. I think it is really impacting your mental health and your motivation to go to work. And that's why many people of people of color will leave the organization and go for somewhere else, which they feel like they are representative.
Don: ah So they look at the organization. So many of us look at the organization and look at the senior leaders and senior management say, hey, will I be ever be able to be there because there is lack of representation? So that is one of the struggle for people of color is that you are not represented. Then you feel like, OK, if I work for this organization, will I ever be able to they be there? So that's why many of the organizations are now trying to build the pipeline. And many organizations want to make a change when the C -suite is already there. and So now they're building the pipeline to make the changes. So I think that's one of the things ah
Don: which people of color struggle with is, I think, start with this microaggression. And then, yeah, that's what I would say one of the things ah which is still in workplaces.
Karessa Malaya: Yeah, I'd like to build on that because, um, when I said before that in the workplace and as an adult, when I show up, um, in a professional space, my skin tone would be code for, yeah, she couldn't know that much. So when Don said that, um, you'd be more scrutinized if you say an idea that that has happened to me, um, in translations i from Spanish to English, I would be,
Karessa Malaya: fighting for ah the use of certain terms. And they'd look at me like, why? You're not a native English speaker.
Karessa Malaya: Little today do they know that in the Philippines, English is basically, you know, it's like in in India. It's your mother tongue as well.
Don: and yeah yeah
Karessa Malaya: and And you know the same idea would be ah proposed by another person only with lighter skin and they would just believe it right away and they would approve it and it would have to go through a lot of scrutiny or a lot of research on you know, how to use this term, what context, ah how can we pronounce it?
Don: Yes. Yeah.
Karessa Malaya: Are you sure it's pronounced that way? and's And it's exhausting. In the workplace, it translates to a waste of time, lack of efficiency. And it's like you're making me waste my energy over something that is so basic when I could be contributing better, you know, um and I don't know, just move move forward and and just get it over with.
Karessa Malaya: But it's it's hard.
Don: ah
Karessa Malaya: It's hard because they have this they have that bias. And unless you really discuss it openly without gaslighting anyone, without putting the blame on anyone, but just having a transparent and yes safe conversation about the matter, I i think it would keep on operating in the shadows you know behind the curtains and we won't be able to really get ahead with with that because unless you face it, you you won't know what what is it.
Don: All right.
Karessa Malaya: you know
Don: Yeah, I agree to Karisa 100%. If you don't have not really experienced it, but then I have to actually one time have to point out that hey this is the same idea I said, but no one agreed to it, but then someone else had the same idea, everyone agreed to it.
Don: And I think, yeah, 100 % Karisa. And then one of the challenges I think is also faced by people of color is also the networking. Right? ah So within the organization, as you all know, we know that organizations works by networking. So if you want to go promotions, you need to have the network. So one of the things which human beings have is affinity biases, right? So you are more friendly with someone who looks like you, someone who talks like you, like someone who can joke with you, like, so it's affinity biases. So it's people of color, because you are coming from different race, a different background. So your your relation to them is quite different when it comes to workplace. So
Don: ah something which can be quite natural for the majority. So here we talk about majority and minorities. So minorities find it really difficult ah because then you don't have the networking support, even progress in the organization. This is why um also needs need to like sponsorship. We talk about sponsorship for minorities, people of color.
Don: because it's happened so natural for the majority, the minority struggles with it. And then sponsorship and measuring is one of the main thing for is needed for people to progress in the organizations because then only you will know that job is coming. So hey you someone will recommend you because that's for the ah senior managers will most of the time will be talking about how I have this colleague. So you need to be recommended. So only the recommendation will happen, which needs to happen by networking, but you cannot be in the part of networking, then you will never, no matter how good you are.
Don: Unfortunately, you will not your name will not be said. So that is one of the barriers also faced by people of color.
Karessa Malaya: Yeah, it's it's a vicious cycle. And now that you mentioned networking, I was um i thought of an incident that that happened ah quite a long time ago because um people in Spain, they they're very, well, defensive. when When we talk about racism, discrimination, they would be like, what? We are not racist. We don't discriminate by color.
Karessa Malaya: replied a young white person, you know, or an old white person.
Don: Mm -mm.
Karessa Malaya: Like, how can you say there's no discrimination, you know, for color when you are white? it's It's difficult. So there are instances when a space may it be in the workspace or in arts and culture and activism movements as well, when um you voice out your concern or you voice out ah an experience when you've experienced aggression, micro, macro aggression and they would just easily tag you as, oh, you're being so sensitive. I don't know if you've encountered that kind of, you've been in that kind of situation and then it just sort of
Karessa Malaya: backfires on you because you thought it would be a safe space, but then you'd be gaslighted into being hypersensitive. And so who do you talk to? And besides, it's like, we really need to address it because hypersensitivity or not, a person has felt, you know, um agree.
Don: yeah's yeah i guess Yeah, I guess it's so, it it's it it is quite, if someone is telling you that if you felt something and you voice it out, but someone say, I don't think it's racism, so you really think oh it might be me, ah then it happens again and again, then you ah stop talking about it.
Karessa Malaya: So
Don: So i have I have seen that I have stopped talking about multiple situations because for me, it becomes so normal. ah Then I started to brush it up, like, you know what, it's brushed up, but then you need to talk about it, then only it will solve.
Karessa Malaya: Exactly.
Don: but many of us because you have so much things to do it so one of my friends say why why why do you want to talk about just brush it out and move on um so because but then it can happen that it's in my head like it will impact me so just building on building and make me more anxious and also like at the end there are so many people of color who are going on burnout is mainly because they're frustrated they are not voicing it up.
Don: So it's just building and building up. And you might see one day one colleague is exploding, and then you're like, why, why, why, why that happened? And this doesn't happen because of one incident. It's because happened because a series of incident built up.
Karessa Malaya: It's a build up.
Don: It just reached the top.
Karessa Malaya: Exactly.
Don: And you're like one thing and just burst everything. So that is the impact, which is which will happen eventually.
Karessa Malaya: That is very harmful to the nervous system. In fact, um this has been discrimination and racism has been topic in in my therapy sessions for
Don: Yeah. Yeah. hey
Karessa Malaya: since forever. I mean, not, not since forever, but since my adult life, you know, and, and it really is a factor, and it really harms you. And you you can, you could have ah afterwards, you know, like physical symptoms of, of that.
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: 100%, 100%. And I really love that you focus a lot on microaggressions because I think like also what what you mentioned Carissa was very, very important is that the idea of it's the visibility of the microaggressions themselves, right?
mahmoassy: I think again like when you i think we we sometimes forget that privilege also limits you from noticing things that are happening in a certain environment because you're flowing in the environment.
mahmoassy: You're not facing difficulties in the environment.
Karessa Malaya: Exactly.
mahmoassy: So that you hear your colleagues saying, oh, I'm facing this and that. You're like, what? No, the environment is amazing. but
Karessa Malaya: It's all sunshine and rainbows.
Don: yeah
Karessa Malaya: What are you talking about? What planet do you live in?
mahmoassy: and So I think it puts a lot of emphasis emphasis on the importance of listening to people. And I think, like, the I think that all the you put a very interesting interesting way. I mentioned it as well earlier um that like big and instances that everybody is going to be against like these macro aggressions that we can we can view.
Don: and
mahmoassy: I think like I think the reaction to those would be bigger or I believe that the actions of those to be bigger. But microaggressions because of their nature of the micro. People would like tell you, oh, no, you're being very sensitive, right?
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: Because they're a small thing. But we need to understand that it is, as you mentioned, Don, it's the accumulation of these small things. We need to understand that we need to treat them with great importance if we want to truly create inclusive environments, not to dismiss things actually.
mahmoassy: there was a study by NR, the European Network Against Racism, it is a publication, and they were showing in one of those publications, I remember the exact title, but like they were showing that how like they they drew this route of how a woman of color, for example, would enter the organization and receive microaggressions, report those microaggressions, then be told that uh you know she's being sensitive or you know like or or like yeah say oh it's miscommunication or misunderstanding or stuff like that and then it would accumulate that would end up in people leaving the organization so we need to understand as well like if you want to truly make an inclusive environment and a diverse environment we want people to stay in the organization we need like we need to respond to these situations we cannot just
mahmoassy: reduce them to, oh, people are being ah so sensitive in that sense, right? So I think like based on this, what we're talking about, I would love to touch on like two things here, which is the first thing is kind of ah is how what else can we do other than responding to these microaggressions and like not letting them pass? What else can we do, can organizations do in order to truly create ah inclusive spaces for people of color.
mahmoassy: And I just want to connect this with something that Daniel mentioned earlier and I want to give the also space to build up on, which is the point of representation in different spaces. ah So how can we ensure that as well?
Don: Yeah. I can start. So I think one of the main thing is by creating education awareness, right? So main like I said, ah most of the time is unconscious biases. People are doing all these things because their lack of awareness is what is happening. I think first and foremost thing all the organizations can do is already having this training, making people aware of unconscious biases and make them aware of the cultural differences. And and it's OK if we are different. That's the fact we are culturally different. We might talk different. but that doesn't impact our performance. That doesn't impact that who I can, and I'm an Indian, I can be a doctor, I can be an engineer, I can be a psychologist as well. So that doesn't impact my performance or who I can be. I think creating that awareness is definitely the first thing. And the second thing I would say is allyship within the organizations. um I think it's speaking up when you see see microaggressions and discrimination is happening against the people of colors. I think people who are facing this microaggression at one point will stop talking ah because you are tired of talking about it. So I think really creating that allyship is always a verb. So it doesn't mean that or you can just sit there and say that, OK, I'm an ally. It should be actionable, meaning that you're speaking against if you see this microaggression happening. And then the representation can only be achieved by hiring.
Don: so hiring processes. So you look at your ah teams, look at your organizations, and also implement the policies to ensure that diverse candidates at least come through the pipeline. So if you look at your interns, who are you hiring the interns? Which universities are you hiring? And if you really want to create an equitable, you also need to look for the universities which are not top -notch to the universities because many of the underrepresented minorities have no chance to go to this top university. So sometimes we put ourselves that we want to get ah people from this top university. So they are kind of like privileged. So you need to go to this university, you need to be have privilege, you need to have the connection sometimes. So then many people who do not have the connection, do not have the privilege, will not be able to go there. So you're really looking at your hiring practices. Who are you hiring?
Don: How can you make it equitable? So I think that's one of the things. And then, of course, this mentoring and sponsorship programs for underrepresented minorities. That is something which we are also trying to do within the organizations as well, ah because which is quite natural ah for someone majority, have that mentoring and sponsorship. And leadership and the top leaders take accountable for that as well. So you start to sponsor someone who normally do not sponsor.
Don: And at the end of the day, I think it's also organization needs to be accountable. um So setting measurable targets, look at your organizations, and then this can this is something which we can measure.
Don: So ah look at the organization, what is the representation of what is happening in your country? For example, this is the representation that's happening. For example, I'm just saying Amsterdam is a part of, so you have multiple races, and their nationalities in Amsterdam.
Don: So if you look at the organization, well, why are these people are not in my organization?
mahmoassy: Happy new technology.
Don: And this is something which you can be easily measured. And I think when you do, and also the leadership take accountable, so they are accountable, so the top management needs to be accountable for this KPIs, then I think we can really make structural fundamental changes because you cannot just say you need to show, actions need to be followed ah to make it more equitable workplaces, I would say.
Karessa Malaya: Done. I'm very interested with what you just said right now.
Don: yeah
Karessa Malaya: oh So before I i um share my ideas as an employee and also as a ah professional in the communication sector, I'm very curious as to what KPIs you use.
Karessa Malaya: um Because i I suppose they are not just quantitative KPIs, you also use qualitative ah KPIs.
Don: Yeah.
Don: yeah so so So yeah, I mean, I can share to the top level.
Karessa Malaya: And what, what KPIs are you using right now? And, um, and how are you fairing if it's okay to share?
Don: I can't go much into the details because it's quite confidential.
Karessa Malaya: Okay.
Don: ah So we we do we do measure on really on internationalities.
Karessa Malaya: Of course.
Don: So we have internationality index. We measure on representation in different business units. So we see have certain business units. They have higher representation of people also from em emerging markets.
Don: So we look at emerging market and mature markets. Here we are really looking at only at um and major market match market So we measure and track, and we also look at the certain divisions, certain departments, and we ask them, hey, what is happening here? Why there is only certain majority why there is a majority of a certain group, and why there is a lack of representation? So this is how you can act this is something which every organization can track and measure, and then something which we can always do. But I think there is, of course, depends on the regions and the countries you have.
Don: GDPR plays into the role, um so it's quite strict GDPR, um so we need to make sure that the race is not being collected, so something which we can always do within the organization is to do the service, anonymous service, and then you can really get also these feelings of what does people of color feel within the organization. We are still struggling struggling to find a way to collect the data, but this is something which we also wanted to do. Then you can really get the idea of like no matter whatever things you are doing, you need to get the feedback from your employees. How do they feel within the organization? And then what can we do better? I think they have to give you the feedback, so then you can create actions for them. um So you can do a survey. You can do a global survey to do that, then so but then you can measure the movement of the employees. And also you can measure also by how many people are hiring. So this is something which you can easily measure because you know the number of people you're hiring. And look at the numbers and see how many people were interviewed, how many people were shortlisted, how many got hired. So these are the things which you can easily do. And then you can see this there is any issues happening there. And then you address that issues. These are some of the things as an organization you can structurally do to track.
Don: I would say.
Karessa Malaya: Yeah, it's very interesting because I was thinking like if you only use quantitative KPIs, you run the risk of ah responding to that KPI with tokenism. um So yeah, I was just um going through in my head because as I was thinking of um the response to to this to this question, I realized that it's not enough for just institutions or the organizations to to take action. I think that also the government, you know, public, um yeah, the public institutions should be involved, because at least here in Spain, um there's we're starting to hear conversations about the importance of
Karessa Malaya: o got making a survey like a nationwide survey to see ah racial profiles of of people of of of the citizens so many are against it because they said it would just fuel racism and discrimination but many are really vying for it fighting for it because
Don: Hmm.
Karessa Malaya: As we know, many of the minorities, people of color, ratialitados, are more susceptible to poverty and, you know, worse conditions, you know, standards of living. So there's there's a ah debate that's getting louder about about this topic.
Karessa Malaya: So I think, um yes, the the government should also be involved in this ah conversation, actively involved in this conversation, because I think that if there's no backing from the government, the organizations would just Yeah, fall into the trap of tokenism.
Karessa Malaya: Oh, we've already done a couple of conferences on DNI. That's it. And, you know, we have hired an intern from, I don't know, Malaysia.
Karessa Malaya: Perfect. That's it, you know.
Don: Tick in the box.
Karessa Malaya: So.
Don: Yeah.
Karessa Malaya: exactly a tick in a box so that's like you know like something quite uh higher and less tangible at least uh from from my point of view but as an employee i would really invite the decision makers of an organization to start having this conversation with with employees because and with employees and the wider stakeholders Because a sentence that I usually hear here in Spain is that, oh, of course I'm not racist. I don't see color.
Karessa Malaya: know
Don: All right.
Karessa Malaya: I'm neither sexist nor feminist. nimachitai feminist that you know is' like You can't stay in the gray area forever. You have to face you know the extremes so you would know how to position and see where the balance is. And as a professional in in communications sector, I really think that we have a big responsibility on the use of terms and on how we choose the visual aids when we when we post, when we communicate, anything to take care that people of color are represented in in a more, yeah.
Karessa Malaya: modern way, like, you know, just not always um feeding the same narrative, Donis. I think you can relate.
Don: i'm laughing i I'm laughing because there's always this so this someone who's coming to like someone who is what you call that ah a hungry child and then there is always someone who is a light skin always helping ah the child, right?
Karessa Malaya: Oh my god.
Don: So they always have this narrative of like they put you put an African child and then you put someone white helping the African child as if like savior is always someone who is white and someone who is struggling is always the darkling. I have a very good example when I was in one company before, my previous company. ah So we had this very good presentation. We were talking about coffee. and So there was producers and there was consumer. So I i put a black African late girl lady drinking a coffee and she's drinking the coffee and then she's the consumer and the producers were um
Don: Yeah, um they were, I think, from ah Sri Lanka or something. But this this was really from the producers.
Karessa Malaya: Mm -hmm.
Don: Then one of the managers, he came to me and said, hey, Don, can we change the picture of the consumer because I'm getting kind of getting confused. Who is the producer? Who is the consumer?
Don: And for me, that was like, why are you confused?
Karessa Malaya: yeah
Don: ah like because she is an African lady drinking coffee and she is like well -dressed and then he's like maybe we want to make it more explicit and then what do you mean I asked him do you want me to change it to a white person so it can fit in your narrative so I so like yeah so so then he said okay never mind um but then when you speak about it then he said okay let's keep it but he said for me it was just a bit confusing my brain
Karessa Malaya: yeah Ouch.
Don: But at least he acknowledged the fact that he got confused. It's a bit of name for me. It was quite shocking and that he literally come and asked me and asked me to change the picture because it was confusing to see an African person who can be a consumer. Yeah.
Karessa Malaya: Yeah, I know something, I'm sorry, Mamoud, something just came into my mind and it has to do with white fragility.
Don: Yeah.
Don: yeah
Karessa Malaya: You know, so, you know, when I was talking about the importance of opening up this conversation with with the decision makers in a company, you you would always, always, at least, you know, there would be one white male, middle -aged or, um you know, boomer generation of of
Don: Mm.
Karessa Malaya: of people who would who would have that fragility in them and would be so defensive. So I guess it's it's it's exhausting, but it's it's I don't want to say it is what it is, but it is how some things are in certain spaces. So I think it's there's the more reason two to have this conversation and to put this topic on the table.
mahmoassy: Yeah, I think like you touched on a couple of of of things I think are very important. like I think like the the first thing that you mentioned is one of the things that resonated a lot was the importance of true representation, right like not representation ah that perpetuates a certain stereotype or a certain stigma associated to to a group in that sense. And I think also like one of the things that came up in the conversation that I also want to highlight is that I think us as humans, we have a tendency to group people very quickly. And I think we we also do that when and when when we're talking to people about such topics, right? Like some people would jump into calling somebody a racist just because of a certain experience, right? But I do, I personally believe that a lot of these experiences stem from maybe ignorance, not knowing about something, or maybe, you know, again, because privilege a lot of the times
mahmoassy: blinds you from other experiences, other realities in that sense. And I feel like they're there there is obviously like puts a lot of importance in such conversations and sharing awareness and like spreading awareness and helping people see things. um ah But I also want to recognize the impact that this the continuity of these experiences, how it impacts people of minority groups, which can lead to sense, ah you know, feelings of frustrations as well and stuff like that, because, like, why can't you see this in that sense, right? But I still, like, despite that, I still believe, and I i think I've had also my fair share of, like, such experiences as well, ah being from, you know, an Arab Muslim living in Europe and also in the refugee, which adds another layer of of complexities to things.
mahmoassy: ah But I think like it's important to kind of like remember that I think because a lot of these, I'm not saying all of these actions, a lot of these actions really do not come from a negative place.
Don: Hmm. Hmm.
mahmoassy: If we approach them or with a negative or with ah with a strong force against it, i think I think people would be afraid to interact.
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: And I think what we need is more contact and not less contact. So I think like even though it's difficult, for for like I keep reminding myself of the importance of Being empathetic being gentle like try to understand as well the you know understand where that person is coming from and to defend more ideas of equality and equity instead of instead of groupings because i think we hide a lot behind identities and we forget.
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: that the the core of what we want to share. And I think when we go back to ideas and the ideas we want to defend, we might find more middle grounds where everybody can thrive in that sense and learn from each other.
Don: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Karessa Malaya: but
Don: Sorry, Karasani.
Karessa Malaya: ah No, no, no, go ahead, and go ahead.
Don: I agree, Mom. I think one of the things which we are also talking about is psychological safety, right? So ah for ah for people of color or minorities to have that, create the space, the majority needs to be in that space as well.
Don: So if the majority needs to be in the space, minorities also, it's also a responsibility to bit create that psychological safety. So many of these actions are coming from ignorance and they are not doing it on purpose.
mahmoassy: Yes.
Don: Sometimes it's just that it's so natural and just happen and then we talk a lot about psychological safety. How do we create a psychological safety to all these spaces so you can have that meaningful conversations? Sometimes I mean, I also have this experience when I was in India. I never thought about white spaces.
Don: And when I moved to Amsterdam, the white spaces was not scary for me because it was foreign, but it was never scary for me. But then but when it started to have like ah so much of this microaggressions and all these things are building up on me, now when I walk into white space, I'm very conscious and very alert. So i need i have I can even sense my anxiety building up even to walk into this. So what can have, what what is the impact is that I am very defensive then.
Don: So a small thing can happen. I'm like, oh, it's racist. But maybe the person is not racist, just a horrible person. Right. But I immediately classify.
Karessa Malaya: It can be of any color.
Don: Yeah, it can be any color, any color.
Karessa Malaya: It can come from, you know, anywhere. but
Don: Yeah, it's not a racism. It's just the person is rude and arrogant.
Karessa Malaya: Yeah. yeah
Don: But I immediately say, oh, this happened because I'm a person of color. But ah one of my friends, but I don't. think So it's just a rude person. Then that look at it that person is behaving exactly to everyone.
Karessa Malaya: you
Don: But then immediately my brain is racism. I think as people of color, we also need to be open to the fact that it's can it's it's not always racism. um It can happen.
Don: So how do we create the psychological safety is only be having conversation. So need to have conversation conversation. Hey, I felt this way. ah When you said that, then the other other person will realize, oh, I did not mean that way, but it impacted you that way.
Don: But then you can have that meaningful conversation. And I think psychological psychological safety, I think, is very important in DNI. Sometimes I do feel like we are very defensive. ah So people are scared even to come into the space and talk about it.
Don: I think, yeah.
Karessa Malaya: Oh, my God.
Don: yeah
Karessa Malaya: I think that that's part of the of the white fragility, um like not knowing how to because I sense that.
Don: Nice.
Karessa Malaya: Oh, my God, and I don't know how to frame this, but I sense that, you know, your centric culture, it's like we know everything, we have the answers to everything. And so they don't know how to navigate this space.
Karessa Malaya: of uncertainty. It's something relatively new, depending on which, you know, geography you operate. And I think it's just that they're uncomfortable navigating not knowing. And so instead of ah just saying, Oh my God, the same with the pronouns, how do I call you? How, how do I navigate this? And I would just tell them ask.
Karessa Malaya: Like, you know, expose yourself to not knowing because then you're giving the the other person enough space to share what they need to share with you so you can have a more fluid conversation or relationship.
Karessa Malaya: and i can totally relate to what you say don about that anxiety building up because it has built up over time even if you come here with this you know this late clean no bias and you feel confident with what you know with your capacity to express yourself and to adapt to circumstances it just builds up on you and it it turns into that heavy thing and so I wanted to um With this in mind. I wanted to go back to what my mood said that we need more contact and more conversation but then Where do you? strike the balance between Yes meeting someone in the middle but not um Turning into
Karessa Malaya: the teacher or the educator because that is also a factor of burnout and anxiety. I don't know what your experience is on on this on this part.
mahmoassy: So i I agree with you on side, like what I think is is that, so I think on a group level, i do I do believe that minority groups have a responsibility to share their story, because otherwise a story would be said for them.
mahmoassy: I do also believe it's not a responsibility that every single member of the minority group has to carry.
Karessa Malaya: Exactly.
mahmoassy: right I think this is how we get resources online, how we you know how these conversations happen. how like I think individuals from minority groups took it upon themselves to start to spark the these learning spaces. I think what we can do is if a person finds a burden and they they really can't, and I think there are two parts. like First of all, not to expect any person from a minority to be the educator, but there are a lot of resources now everywhere.
mahmoassy: that we can use I think the other part is that the person of the minority can maybe just reference these resources if they know them or just tell the person to look like somewhere else that they don't want to carry that burden and in that sense so because there are other people right that that would would be would be willing and happy to to do the process of learning and maybe are even more experienced because the learning experience is not like the teaching experience is not for everyone and as we have
Karessa Malaya: Mm hmm.
Don: And you have trainers like Malmood now to train people now, so we can hire Malmood.
mahmoassy: yeah
Karessa Malaya: Exactly. easy
mahmoassy: Okay.
Karessa Malaya: That would make way for more conversations and and more contact, better than Googling.
Don: Yeah.
Don: Yeah. Yeah.
Karessa Malaya: like
Don: That's my way.
mahmoassy: Well, it has been such a very interesting conversation with both of you. I've learned so much. I thank you so much for being so open and sharing, like also from me like not just like from your professional experiences, but also from your personal experiences.
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: um I just want to leave you if you have any last words before we end the episode, anything else that we'd like to share.
Don: ah Carissa, this time I'm gonna let you go first.
Karessa Malaya: Um, I think my final message would be to invite people to just navigate the uncertainties because this, this pace they were opening up this topics of conversation. I mean, I've never heard my parents, let alone my grandparents talk about these topics.
Karessa Malaya: oh in any type of gathering, formal, informal, familiar, more relaxed um gatherings. No, I've never heard them talk about these. They would talk speak of these topics maybe in coded terms so the children won't hear it. But this is the first time I'm really hearing and participating. And yeah, just being a witness to how the topic evolves. So I would just invite people to not be afraid to navigate in and and the uncertainty and not knowing and don't be afraid to ask. Like people would know if your intentions are harmful or or not, ah or if you're just really curious and you want to know to be able to deliver better. I think, yeah, I think that's it. And thank you for for the invitation.
mahmoassy: What about you, Don?
Don: um I think my my final thoughts will be, I think all of us struggle with something, right? So I think have that empathy and be open ah to everyone. Minorities being open to majority people who are, and then being open and have that empathy so that you can have the meaningful conversations. When you start to talk, then you listen and then you understand what is it coming from. Why is it happening? I think having that space creates a psychological safety. and I think that's that's my parting word and I really hope that in 10 years down the road we do not talk about DNI and I will not have my job because it's not a topic anymore.
Don: Right? It would be embedded in the society. That's my wish. um But yeah, so that is my hope as well. We will not need to have this conversation because everything is equitable. It won't be a topic for the future generation at least. But I think truth happens that we need to have this conversation now. So you don't need to talk about it in the future.
Karessa Malaya: Mahmoud, let's schedule another meeting 10 years from now, like ah on the 13th of September, 2034.
mahmoassy: that and me so now
Karessa Malaya: And let's see how things are.
mahmoassy: i and thought
Don: But when you really think about it, that there was a conversation about females wearing jeans so many years back. So, you know, we don't talk about it anymore because it's so ingrained.
Karessa Malaya: ah
Don: Nobody thinks its that is a topic anymore.
Karessa Malaya: ah but
Don: I mean, maybe certain parts of the world, it's still a topic, but that's what I'm like. Yes, DNI will not be a topic because it would be a song.
mahmoassy: Anyways,
Don: We don't see people different and we don't have to talk about it because it's equitable.
mahmoassy: I'm out.
Don: I don't know whether it's going to happen in 10 years, but that's my hope.
Karessa Malaya: yeah
mahmoassy: that
Karessa Malaya: yeah Cross fingers.
Don: Yeah.
mahmoassy: Yes. Well, thank you again, both of you for again, such an amazing conversation for sharing your insights and everything for you listeners.
Don: yeah
mahmoassy: You've been listening to working with identities. Thank you for tuning in and I hope you extract many, many learnings as I did from this very engaging conversation.
mahmoassy: ah We will see you in ah future episodes.
