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The LGBTQ+ Experience in Corporate Spaces
23 Plays5 months ago
In this episode, we delve into the LGBTQ+ experience in corporate spaces, with a particular focus on the tech industry. Our special guests, share their insights and personal experiences, shedding light on the positive practices that foster genuine inclusivity and the challenges that still persist.
We explore the concept of pinkwashing—when companies claim to support LGBTQ+ rights but fall short of meaningful action—and discuss how to differentiate between performative allyship and true inclusion. Our conversation goes beyond the surface to address the importance of supporting all identities within the LGBTQ+ community, including transgender, non-binary, bisexual, and other often overlooked groups.
Join us as we uncover actionable strategies for creating more inclusive workplaces, examine the evolving role of LGBTQ+ employee resource groups, and discuss what the future holds for LGBTQ+ inclusion in the tech industry. Whether you're a corporate leader, an LGBTQ+ professional, or an ally, this episode offers valuable insights on how to make workplaces more welcoming and equitable for everyone.
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Transcript
Intro
00:00:21
mahmoassy
Hi,
Introduction to the Podcast and Episode
00:00:22
mahmoassy
everyone. Welcome to Working with Identities, a podcast where we are dedicated to fostering meaningful conversations between identities and companies. Each episode highlights the experiences, challenges, and talents of individuals from different social and demographic groups. Our goal is to create a constructive space where stories are shared, solutions are explored, and understanding is built, ultimately promoting a more inclusive workplace and society.
00:00:51
mahmoassy
Today we are going to be talking about the LGBTQ plus experience in corporate spaces. And I'm very excited to welcome our two guests here today that are going to share from their experience.
00:01:03
mahmoassy
What does it entail to talk about the inclusion of LGBTQ plus individuals in the workplace? So I'm going to pass the microphone first to Susana so she can present herself.
Guest Introductions
00:01:17
mahmoassy
Hi Susana for being here.
00:01:17
susana
Yeah. Hi, I'm Susana, my pronouns are here and I work as a developer in a video games company. i don't I don't know if I can say the name of the company or I didnt i need to share share it or...
00:01:32
mahmoassy
It's up to you, really.
00:01:34
susana
Yeah, it's it's a gaming company and yeah, that's me.
00:01:38
mahmoassy
Thank you, Susana. And also we have Enric. Thank you for being here, Enric, today.
00:01:43
Enric_G_ Duran
Hi, I'm Enric, I'm a USUI designer and for a mobile games company also. I'm currently my first job, I started as an intern and I also volunteer in the DEI team in my company.
00:01:58
mahmoassy
Great.
What Does Inclusivity Mean in Tech?
00:01:58
mahmoassy
Well, thank you again, both of you for for for being here today and for us to discuss this very important topic specifically as well. I think like since you both come from, you work in the tech sector, I think like having this focus as well can allow us to dive deeper into what aspects can we you know kind can be also specific for that for that sector.
00:02:19
mahmoassy
So I think I would like to start with a general question that maybe can highlight the conversation a little bit. And it's an open question. So you yeah whoever wants to to take it first can go ahead, which is what does it mean really when we say that a company is inclusive of the LGBTQ plus community?
00:02:39
susana
Yeah, for me, I think is most of the times, inclusivity can be understood as putting a pride flag during the pride month.
00:02:52
susana
company's picture on Instagram or on the social media, but I think it's way more about it than just that. What I think is about maintaining an environment where where the community and not just the community because everyone can feel like they are represented and cared of.
00:03:24
susana
Because, yeah sorry.
00:03:24
Enric_G_ Duran
Yeah. No, no, I was just agreeing.
00:03:30
Enric_G_ Duran
And yeah, I think I really completely with Susana. I think it's important to outwardly portray and for companies that it's fine and to be diverse, that they're all for it, that they're in favor of this kind of thing. But I think the the real deal is when you see as an employee that these values are also carried on to so you and like and you see that there are efforts to eliminate biases to work on stuff, basically.
00:03:30
mahmoassy
I'm
00:04:07
susana
Yeah, and sorry, sorry.
00:04:07
mahmoassy
but and we'll go ahead to something
00:04:09
susana
I wanted to say that for me, it's very important that the main heads and the the public figures from from the companies have a voice, like a public voice about it, like mention it actively during meetings and events.
00:04:24
susana
Because so there is the the way that everyone within the company is going to have that feeling of we need to respect this on the table.
00:04:31
mahmoassy
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. 100% and I think like here there comes, like you've you've touched on it that both a little bit and I think it's very important here to highlight this kind of like, what is the difference between doing an act that is just for show and doing an act that truly promotes inclusion? Like how can you really distinguish between just, you know, putting a rainbow flag on the logo during Pride Month and calling it a day and between actually doing efforts for inclusion?
00:05:03
mahmoassy
What do you think, how can we really, like, what concrete actions maybe can come to mind? I think you mentioned the flag, you mentioned that, like, represent, like, representation and, like, voicing that leadership be to voice that commitment to these causes. Do other actions you yeah come to mind as well that really mean true inclusion of the community?
Inclusivity in Remote and Hybrid Work Setups
00:05:25
Enric_G_ Duran
Well, on my side, I think there are many examples of things that you can do, a maybe more at the internal level that a employees notice and that can be inclusive, right? For example, I was thinking that your policies that you have for internal off-sites or like events in the in the company,
00:05:45
Enric_G_ Duran
It's very important to maintain a respectful environment and to enforce that also to kind of give value and like give chances to your diverse employees right to LGBTQ people to have rows of decision making of leadership so in general like noticing that there's no bias or if there is biases that people are working and to get rid of them or like to observe them.
00:06:19
Enric_G_ Duran
I don't know.
00:06:20
susana
Yeah, in a smaller scale, for example, it also comes to my mind, like contracts and so all kinds of documents that are like cordially translated to the pronouns that are inclusive is very important because I i feel, I believe that that those kinds of small details make us feel more at home or safer.
00:06:48
mahmoassy
Yeah, yeah. I think like you you hired is something that is very important as well. It's kind of like it's also these small actions, right? Like just, you know, when it becomes the habit and it becomes integrated into the like the company, as you mentioned, like putting the pronouns maybe in your email or in your, you know, the on zoom or whatever.
00:07:07
mahmoassy
Like these very small actions make it the norm that people are sharing their pronouns. So it's not like an interruption that people are doing in order to, you know, to to say, Oh, actually, this is the wrong pronoun. I use this other pronoun becomes like something that everybody is doing. I think it it it really also makes generates maybe a sense of ease around for this aspect, for example, sharing of pronouns and whatnot.
00:07:32
mahmoassy
So we're going to dive a little bit deeper into this. But I think like since, again, you both work in in in the tech sector, there are a lot of companies, especially like in tech, that employ a remote or hybrid work environment. So do you think that inclusion has a specific shape when it comes to these specific environments, since you you don't have everybody in person in the office at the end of the day?
00:08:00
mahmoassy
And but like also like think of maybe good or even bad practices that maybe come to mind. like So I think that would help us also you know elaborate more on what this inclusion really means.
00:08:14
Enric_G_ Duran
Yeah, I think in in my perspective, and really the the key thing in remote or hybrid work is flexibility, right? like I think that the best situation is where each person can have their needs met.
00:08:30
Enric_G_ Duran
In their own unique way right like like for example if if you're doing hybrid work It's right to be able to come some days if you need to the office and some days not for example I am a person that's more productive in the office and I appreciate going there meeting people and all of the stuff right and yeah, I think that is dangerous in both right in fully remote and fully office because I don't know, especially with fully remote, I feel like and you can be like it can be very useful for conciliation and for like and many things that a person might need to take care of. But in the end, it can also feel like a bit isolating, especially that if you like you are maybe living alone or far away from the place that you work or something.
00:09:20
susana
For me, it's a this question is very like important because I think with this remote aspect of that the setting of the work environment, I think here is where we actually can prove that fighting against the cis-head patriarchy and the structures it provides and It's useful not just for the queer community, but also for everyone. like For example, in a remote or hybrid environment, people can easily feel isolated. and we are We are talking about the LGBTQ community, but it's useful for everyone that we create spaces where everyone feels comfortable and included.
00:10:11
mahmoassy
Well, I think this brings us to one also of the questions that I think is very important, which is related to like spaces. right I think, like how can we ensure that these spaces that, for example, we create for different employees, and since we're talking specifically about the community, for the community, which our spaces are essential for us to actually understand the needs of the community, right? Because like not like people from different you know different realities of the community will have different challenges and needs depending on their realities, right? So how can we make sure that these spaces truly are inclusive of all the different members of the community and really ensure that we're really catering to all of those members?
00:10:57
mahmoassy
Any ideas?
00:10:57
susana
I think Enric almost covered this topic when he talked about making everyone feel represented across all the positions maybe amongst the company, so I don't know.
00:11:17
Enric_G_ Duran
I agree that that's like a very nice starting point. like If you come into a company and you see that maybe your boss is someone who understands diversity or maybe is an LGBTQ person or and some kind of other minority, that's very reassuring as another minority. right And I think also,
00:11:38
Enric_G_ Duran
like If you you were talking about spaces and I was thinking about safe spaces, I feel like that kind of safe space and like that kind of feeling of being heard comes only from like when the company establishes ways of communication and like of two ways.
00:11:56
Enric_G_ Duran
right like you can the company is willing to do stuff, but the company is also willing to listen to you and like to actually know what do they need to do because sometimes it can be easily that have been to the territory of making actions or doing stuff because the company thinks it's the best thing for everyone, but actually if you listen to the employees, maybe they don't need that exact thing.
Inclusivity in Company Output
00:12:23
susana
Also something that comes to me, especially speaking about gaming companies. I think we talked about last day we met. For example, if the the the video games our companies create represent all kinds of ways of expression, gender expression. have i I think creating characters that are actually real help
00:12:53
susana
a lot to make workers feel more included because they are working on something that is real for them.
00:13:03
Enric_G_ Duran
Yeah, and I also think that it says a lot about a company if they let their employees reflect their own like diversity into what they are making and in creative work, like in in gaming, that's very nice and that makes for also for a fulfilling like what you know like work
00:13:25
mahmoassy
Yeah, definite I think like I really like this idea as well, like also like keeping in mind how in the gaming industry, for example, there it it has a very creative element and how like you, through allowing you know more or less people going and representing themselves through through that creative aspect,
00:13:43
mahmoassy
that you generate this representation. is not just about like it's It's definitely about the representation in the people that are within the company, obviously, but it's also about what the company produces. Are people reflected in what the the organization produces or not in that sense? You highlighted a lot, I think, as well, the the aspect of communication and creating spaces where people can communicate. And I want to kind of like and like go a little bit deeper here.
00:14:13
mahmoassy
Because I feel like a lot of like any company can say, oh, you can come to me with a complaint. Oh, you can, you know, this is a safe space. You can tell me anything, you know. But what does it really like? What makes a good communication, a good safe space and what doesn't what or what is just fake that to call it in a way or another? You know what I mean?
00:14:35
susana
Yeah, for me is I couldn't mention like specifically what makes me feel safe. But one of the things that I've been thinking about lately, like lots, it's been like, this is always under my perspective as a lesbian woman. I felt many, many times a lot of pressure to fit into had normativities, how i I should dress or present myself, that many times I felt I was not professional enough because I didn't look or act like a stereotypical woman in a corporate setting should look like. And I think this is something that the company and the workers working at the company, all of us,
00:15:28
susana
can help to create a safe space where everyone can act or dress or communicate the way they they want.
00:15:44
Enric_G_ Duran
I definitely agree. Today I do stuff a bit, but usually I come in full leash of eyeliner and stuff in my face to the office. And it's very nice to be able to do that freely and not worrying about getting any comments or anything. So that's very important. I also think as one other area that is something companies can do is that just when the HR team and the leadership team and i in on the like are buying into the idea that you need to and make people feel comfortable, you need to give people stuff. and When they buy in this like philosophy of diversity and all of this, you can really notice, right? And when they don't, you can also really notice. So I think maybe this is
00:16:41
Enric_G_ Duran
a bit tricky to actually to make into an action. But like the people who are in charge of these these things, because they're usually a couple of faces, not many more. So that's really important, I think.
00:16:54
susana
Yeah, definitely.
00:16:57
mahmoassy
So we touched on another like i think like another form of expression that is very important, which is like when you enter the office, do you feel that people are trying to fit into a mold, into a specific picture, a specific image? Or do you feel people that they are invited to be who they are right at the end of the day? And I think like this kind definitely like why you were talking, I was thinking about it, and you definitely like you enter any space.
00:17:20
mahmoassy
And you can tell if you would be welcome to you know really express who you are, really show who you are, or you wouldn't by seeing how people are you know are led to their will to express their diversity and their identities into into that space. So I think this is definitely also important
Genuine Inclusion vs. Pink Washing
00:17:40
mahmoassy
as well. and But like if we if we go back to the remote and hybrid space, because I know that you both have, you like and where you work, you have either remote or hybrid format. How do you think this form of expression, or what would be the equivalent of entering you know the room and seeing people express themselves in a remote work environment?
00:18:04
susana
For me, maybe it's silly, but say the profile pictures show a lot. Like if they are very cooperative or you can tell that HR is behind there, like saying, no, this picture you shouldn't put it or whatever. Obviously we all need to to keep ethical settings in in our profile pictures, but yeah, you can tell if you are allowed to do whatever you you you please or you are forced to fit into the norm.
00:18:38
Enric_G_ Duran
Yeah, i I totally agree. I think there are little nooks and crannies of self-expression you can do through Slack, through any like kind of messaging tool that you use, through Zoom backgrounds. I am always amazed at the originality of so but animated Zoom backgrounds. I had have one coworker who is in a car a stuff, and it's moving all all day, and you see him there.
00:19:09
Enric_G_ Duran
So yeah, basically, I feel like just being able to self-express is really nice. And also, in especially in remote, I think and it's very important to, if you're doing fully remote, like almost fully remote, it's very important to have like maybe meetings, or a yeah, meetings that are more casual, that are maybe not so work-related, but are they just a catch-up like, hey, how are you doing?
00:19:09
susana
and love it
00:19:30
susana
I love it.
00:19:36
Enric_G_ Duran
and Because that's what you would usually do organically at the office. But if you cannot do that, then it's very important that you are still pushing yourself to do that, right?
00:19:47
mahmoassy
So i'm I don't know if you're noticing, but I'm trying to summarize like kind of like the points that we're making along the way. And I think like we highlight a lot of things, and I kind of want to see if I if i am able to do like a quick summary before we we move forward. So I think we highlighted a lot at the form of expression in various ways. right like We said like being able to express yourself in the workplace, be and and whether it's in the physical space or whether it's it's online. We talked about be like having these kind of norms or or I want to say traditions or habits within the company, the fastivity, the sharing of aspects like pronouns, right? Like if everybody sharing their pronouns is not a pause for other people to share their pronouns. We talked about also
00:20:30
mahmoassy
expression also like we extended also to when you're creating for example characters in games and whatnots it's not just within how you're expressing yourself within yourself or the realms of yourself but also like how what you're producing as a company as well when you're producing very diverse as well characters in this case and whatnot you're really showing that you are a company that really lets their you know its employees express themselves. And Marlotta, you finally highlighted as well on the that the aspect of spaces, right? And spaces in in a lot of ways, spaces in them when it comes to communication, spaces where, for example, leadership is creating space or people are creating space in a you know virtually, even if it's not in a physical space, to just check up on people, right? To have this more human connection more than this
00:21:19
mahmoassy
task-based relationship where we're just, hey, did you, did you finish this X task that I asked from you? It's more, okay, how are you feeling? How are you doing and whatnot, and creating this more human connection in the workplace.
00:21:34
mahmoassy
So I think we're where we we have a lot of examples of what true inclusion can be like. I think I want to kind of go back to circle back to kind of like the first question to kind of like finalize with like, how would you distinguish between true inclusion and pink washing? And can you explain before explaining that what is pink washing for you?
00:21:59
susana
For me, pink washing was the first we talked about like just putting the pride flag and because so then you are going to reach more customers or I don't know, whatever. That's the main example of pink washing. And then don't create like the safe environments for the people that are working at their your company because we are talking about company relation with workers.
00:22:32
Enric_G_ Duran
Totally. I feel like it has a lot to do with doing stuff for for profit or for a like with some intention of getting away with X, Y, and Z or like and you think this will be more marketable or you will attract and talent or, you know,
00:22:54
Enric_G_ Duran
versus actually doing stuff because you believe that it's the right thing to do and you believe it will improve the quality of the work that people are doing in your company and the quality of their lives and you will retain them but like not just because you don't want to spend money on hiring other person but because you actually value your talent. I think that's very important. and
00:23:17
susana
Some other example of pig washing, but facing more the private part, not that the reaching the customers would be like HR saying that we are an inclusive company and then never work on creating how safe spaces like safe reporting channels where these kind of issues related to judgment or mistreatment can be addressed.
00:23:47
susana
that would be like an example of pink washing too.
00:23:51
mahmoassy
Definitely, definitely.
00:23:51
Enric_G_ Duran
Yeah, totally.
00:23:53
mahmoassy
Yeah, like I definitely like see what you're saying, like how pink washing is just like when you want to create a facade, right like to to create this image, and then there's no substance to actually this this image that you're projecting.
00:24:08
mahmoassy
you know I just want to look the part so that because you're extracting benefits from the part in comparison to actually actually doing those actions and I think like with with everything you said like it it highlights a lot how those actions they do not need to be very extensive very you know like they can be small actions that a lot of you know small action that you're doing and the accumulation of these actions is what creates this inclusive environment. And what I love about what you mentioned as well, all the points that you've met you've mentioned, and I think Sasan you mentioned this earlier, is that these actions touch upon also other areas of of diversity. It's not just like it benefits a lot of
00:24:51
mahmoassy
you know, a lot of members of in a company, not just, you know, the LGBTQ plus community in that sense. And Nicky said it very well, like in kind of like, when you focus on the people that you have and the wellbeing, that the that they you know the the experience and the company,
00:25:08
mahmoassy
yeah And it's not just about, hey, look at me, I'm this amazing, you know inclusive company. It's more about, I really want to be a good place for the people that work with me. So I think like that there really is the shift. And I think like this is is what highlights a lot the difference between these two. So I have another question for you, which is, how can we make sure then that our inclusion efforts really, really go and reach everyone in that sense. Because I feel like sometimes a lot of companies, they do some inclusion efforts, they even create these spaces, they even do maybe an employee resource group where we we have a group of maybe members that volunteer to be part of that group to discuss elements of inclusion of the LGBTQ plus community.
00:25:58
mahmoassy
But some companies really struggle with engagement, really struggle with you know people coming in, sharing their voice and whatnot. And I think like there are two parts of the question. How can we generate more engagement in the beginning? And how can we make those spaces and for those spaces to actually get translated into actual action? Not to make the space for the sake of the space and then doing nothing and saying, oh, we have those spaces, we're an amazing company.
00:26:27
susana
the Regarding this, i i I don't know if this is going to sound very popular, but it's on all of our hands to make this kind of space as possible. I mean, companies can be struggling, but if people that work there don't like really appreciate those efforts and and yeah from the inside of the community don't use them or don't try to help within them like you said and like you were volunteering for your company's RDE. I don't remember what was the name you mentioned but
00:27:04
Enric_G_ Duran
yeah Yeah, in our case, it's like the AI team, when we do like everything because we're not such a big company and we have like ERGs for different things. bad But yeah, basically, it's a kind of an energy.
00:27:18
susana
so yeah I was it was just mentioning that it's it's in all of our hands to to to keep that's those spaces like attractive and useful for all of us. If we need something, probably we are going to meet someone else that really needs that and being like have the courage to say it and to bring up initiatives that could help us maybe can be stressful at first, but then it's going to be very rewarding both for for for you and also for the people that are there.
00:27:56
Enric_G_ Duran
Yes, in in my experience, and it is a challenge to engage people and to move people to to do things outside of like their usual job, right? Because for some people it's like, oh, well, I i come in, do my thing, go home. And this is a distraction, right?
00:28:18
Enric_G_ Duran
Uh, which is understandable. Uh, so I think one, uh, part of it is having like, if you create an energy, uh, as a company, but then don't give them support and give them, uh, channels to, uh, like diffuse their, their activities and their stuff. Uh, basically if leadership and HR and all of these people don't support the energy, the energy won't have the power to move people and to engage people.
00:28:46
Enric_G_ Duran
Also, if you feel like it's OK to use that time, like if people can allocate their time and and don't feel like by using their time for ERG stuff, they're losing working time and they will get scolded for that or they will need to compensate in some other way. That's also a nice incentive and because usually when people can struggle with it, they will. So even if they're
Shared Responsibility and Intersectional Approaches
00:29:13
Enric_G_ Duran
not that interested. So that's that's one thing.
00:29:15
Enric_G_ Duran
and another stuff Another thing that I think is really important is in the end, listen to your audience. right like many a the and I've had the experience where I'm super excited with my team to create something or to so prepare something, but in the end, a We're like, well, we really didn't know if this there was an actual need or this was just something that like a small group of people wanted happening, which also I think there's a space for things that maybe only appeal to 10 people, but if the those 10 people have a a good time doing that or like can use that for something, I think that's right. Like not every event or not every initiative needs to serve the whole company. and So yeah, I think
00:30:05
Enric_G_ Duran
it's It's a bit tricky, but there are ways to make it better. and Always, on top of those actions that you need people to engage, you need people to come in to be successful. There are actions that you can do like more in the in the shadows or like in the background that that are also and there to improve the experience of your colleagues, right? Like things like and moving people to make the equality plan that is required here in Spain, right? Like more administrative things you can also push for.
00:30:35
mahmoassy
Definitely. And i I really, I think like I loved this. Well, how's it something you started with it? And I feel like it kind of like highlights that a lot is the shared responsibility of this, right? Like it's not, I think like sometimes when it comes to diversity and inclusion, I think this is also sometimes why we might find not a lot of engagement in ERGs is that it's seen as, oh, it's an HR thing. It's the, you know, the the manager's thing. It's not, it's not something that is shared amongst all the members of the company.
00:31:02
mahmoassy
I think we need to remind ourselves that the company is the sum of its people and we need to all be engaged i have to, you know, lower or higher level. Some people will be very engaged and dedicating, you know, hours and hours to this. and Some people will do small actions, right? Like, I think, like, we definitely need to be engaged with these actions and do undo even if it's, you know, a little bit in order to really create this inclusive environment and not just wait for that environment to be created for us in that sense. So definitely I definitely agree with the with everything that that you both said. So I want to, just like before we close, to give you a space to maybe share some any thoughts or advice that you might have for for people, whether they are from diversity departments or they're generally working
00:31:52
mahmoassy
and in other departments in the company of how they can actually do their part. it's like Do you have any piece of advice or thoughts that you would like to share with them?
00:32:05
susana
For me, it's very important to to highlight that every step we give into share and be emphatic with the rest of the people that surround us is going to help maintaining and creating an easier environment to live in. And that's something I really, really appreciate in all levels.
00:32:39
mahmoassy
definitely definitely
00:32:40
Enric_G_ Duran
Yeah, for me, I think my thing that's maybe not the most obvious, but it's really useful is intersectionality.
00:32:50
Enric_G_ Duran
Like here what we're talking about and specific LGBTQIA plus matters, but I think most of the times something that will benefit one group will benefit most people.
00:33:01
mahmoassy
Definitely,
00:33:02
Enric_G_ Duran
So just listen to your colleagues, make alliances where you can
00:33:05
mahmoassy
definitely.
00:33:09
Enric_G_ Duran
and find common grounds and like, yeah, I think like people are done are aren't usually just one thing, right? Like people have like a mosaic of stuff
Final Thoughts and Advice
00:33:22
Enric_G_ Duran
in their life. So and even if you're super good at LGBTQIA plus policies and all of that stuff, if you have a very bad, I don't know, conciliation, I don't know if that's the word, but like if you have very,
00:33:37
Enric_G_ Duran
bad hybrid world policies or like very bad a and other policies, people will still be uncomfortable because even and even the LGBTQIA plus employees, some of them will have trouble with that.
00:33:58
mahmoassy
definitely Definitely. I think like this is also key, like also like remembering that people are not just the boxes that we saw we sometimes tend to put them in and they have a huge variety of identities and some like a lot of the identity of people we don't even know. right like So we might think, oh like because like I've spoken to companies before and they say, I don't think we we you know we need to work on this. right And then we do a session and then in the middle of the session, when somebody feels comfortable, they start sharing. And then i you know I don't look at the person that said that, but like in my mind, I'm thinking of that person that said, oh, we don't need to work on this. And the realization that there is a lot like you know beneath the surface of what we see and the importance of working on on this and really connecting with people. And like, as I said, like with empathy and really focusing on people and really, you know, crew generating this,
00:34:52
mahmoassy
these connections. And it's again, it's about, as you both mentioned, like about these small actions that we we continually do and thinking about people as you know, as people at the end of the day, as you said, and right, like and with their intersectionality, not just one box. So thank you very, very much for everything that you've shared. It has been such an insightful conversation. I think we touched on very, very important points and key points in how we can generate this inclusive environment for the LGBTQ plus community, but also beyond. And I think this is like this beyond that I think is also very,
00:35:28
mahmoassy
very important because it's not just about the LGBTQ plus community, it kind of benefits everybody in the work environment. So again, thank you very, very, very much for being here today. And yeah, I hope we have more conversation inside the conversation in the future.
00:35:45
Enric_G_ Duran
I hope so.
00:35:45
susana
Sure. Thank you so much.
00:35:48
Enric_G_ Duran
Thank you.
00:35:48
mahmoassy
Thank you.