Transcript
Speaker: I love playing the game, would you rather? Because it forces you to make decisions for which there's really no good answer. I'm not a fan of the gross ones or the silly ones, but I am a fan of the more philosophical ones. Would you rather go through life unable to forget anything ever or go through life unable to remember anything? Would you rather give up all technology, cell phones, computers, et cetera,
Speaker: or give up all movies, television, and books. Would you rather be loved or love? Would you rather have betrayed someone and no one ever find out, or to have not betrayed that person, but everyone believe that you did? Our case this week brings us just such philosophical questions.
Speaker: In this case, it's would you rather be tormented by an entity and everyone believe you, therefore forcing you to move, make you an outcast, or to face that same entity, but everyone believe that you're making it up.
Speaker: It's that question that we'll be exploring this week as we delve into the nine months of terror a young family faced and what they originally believed to be their dream home. The sights, the sounds, the voices, the witch. It was more than they could stand. This is the case of the tall men haunting.
Speaker: Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
Speaker: We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
Speaker: Okay. I'm excited because that little, the last would you rather, you know, be haunted forever. Yeah. That's, that, that gets you thinking. It does. I know.
Speaker: And Maggie, it is a spooky one this week. And that is because I am in the midst of interviewing for my next few episodes. So with the scheduling of those, I needed another week to get those arranged and I decided to do a supernatural one. And even when I was researching this one,
Speaker: it gave me nightmares. Oh, that's good. Because, you know, I'm just like in the midst of all those crazy pregnancy dreams that you have. Yeah, I do want to warn you that this might be one of those cases where you're going to be listening to it. And then every creek will make you jump and every shadow will make you do a double take.
Speaker: So this is one where I'm going to be saying, God, please protect my soul. Right. Yes. Tonight as you go to sleep. And you might be like, Anthony, can you come sit with me while we talk? So our case this week actually involves a potential haunted object.
Speaker: And you know, I have told you the story of my possessed doll. And I would swear on a Bible that this doll was possessed. And I don't remember if I shared it on here on the regular podcast on the show, but I know I shared it in a Patreon episode. So there's just a little teaser that if you want to hear the demented doll story from my experience, join Patreon.
Speaker: But that doll, the thought of it, still gives me the creeps to think about. But I had no idea until this week, when I was looking into it, that there is actually a market out there for possessed and haunted artists. Who would want that, is my question. You can just go online and buy Allison's possessed baby doll. Yes. Yes.
Speaker: And I have no earthly idea why I almost said what could possess someone to want to possess these dolls. But apparently, there is a whole section of eBay called Haunted eBay, where there is even a, quote, purchase with caution.
Speaker: warning. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And so I was looking through it and you can find anything from coins, to bottles, to sticks, to bricks, to porcelain figures, to masks, even to a haunted bra. I'm confused how that could be haunted. I was too, but apparently
Speaker: Apparently, it's handy. But more than anything else, and this might be one of the most terrifying things to think about, is I saw that the majority of the haunted objects were items related to children, like teddy bears and porcelain dolls or dolls in general. I guess that makes sense. Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I mean, because
Speaker: Maybe kids are more perceptive? I think that maybe. And I mean, obviously, I'm not a demonologist. But when I think about evil spirits, I always imagine that they would want to attack innocents. Because I feel like if somebody is already evil, then what's the challenge? Yeah, it's true.
Speaker: I guess that's why. But our haunted item in the case this week is, well, it's weird. More weird than a burl? Yes. Well, about the same level. Because our haunted item in the case is a bunk bed.
Speaker: interesting okay but i don't want to get too far ahead of myself so i'm going to step back i'm going to tell you a little bit about the family and how the purchase of the bunk bed was made in the first place okay in doing so i do have to make a confession and that is that nowhere
Speaker: are the names of the Tallman children listed. Is this very old or? It's from the late 80s. Hmm. So I feel like that's really impressive since this case took place almost 40 years ago. Yeah, their names are still. Still nowhere to be found. Yeah.
Speaker: But the parents' names are listed. And so that actually makes me wonder if their names, at least their first names that I read in the research, are truly their names. Yeah, because I feel like people would know who Allison's daughter is, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, right. And especially with a unique last name like Tallman, I would think that the children's names would have been out there somewhere in all of this time.
Speaker: And so, since the children's names aren't readily available, but they are an integral part of the story, they have, over the course of time, been, quote, unquote, assigned names over the years. Because, you know, you don't want to say, like, daughter one, daughter two.
Speaker: And so the names that they have been assigned, the boy, who is the oldest, in most of my research was called Danny, though there were a few sources that called him Kenny. But I'm not calling Danny for the boy. And two girls, and they have been named Marianne and Sarah.
Speaker: So, Dami, Marianne, Sarah. And again, those names could be accurate, for all I know, or 100 % false. But I'm just going to stick with the norm instead of randomly assigning them my own names. Gotcha. For the case of this story. So, I told you that we are in 1986. And to give some context, we're actually April 13th
Speaker: 1986 to be exact. And in January, our country had watched the Challenger explosion. That was actually in second grade, watching it on television. You know what though, let's talk about that for a second.
Speaker: Why do they think, which I mean, I know in the challenger that was different because like we obviously didn't know it was going to explode. Correct. So when you watched it, it's not like your teachers were thinking, oh, we're going to let these kids watch people die, but then forever. Yeah. Yeah. But then I'm thinking like my generation, I was in fifth grade for September 11th and they literally turned the TV on. Like we watched the plane.
Speaker: The second plane crashed into the Twin Towers. Knowing what was going on in your case. Yeah. And they knew, obviously, people were going to die. I mean, they may not have known exactly what was going on. But that's dramatic. And I was in fifth grade. All of us are traumatized in our own ways by things that were shown on television.
Speaker: Yeah, so that happened in January of 1986. Halley's Comet had just had its closest approach to Earth in 1986. And in Horrocan, Wisconsin, the young Talmon family, consisting at the time in April of 1986, of Dad Allen, Mom Debbie, who was pregnant with Sarah at the time,
Speaker: And then Danny and Marianne were moving into the house that they thought was going to be their forever home located on Larrabee Street. OK, where is this? Is this town a very small town? Because I've never heard of it. It is a very small town. And Alan and Debbie were both from Wisconsin and they actually had family who were just a short drive from Horrocan. So it made sense that they would pick
Speaker: this little town because, well, I'll tell you about the town in just a second. But initially they were right about this being their dream home because the house had all of the bedrooms that they would need.
Speaker: it was on this quiet street and the town of Horrocan itself, they often called it the city on the marsh, was this quiet, stayed place. The population actually today is around 3 ,600 people, which was roughly, yeah, that's roughly the same size it was in 1986. So the population has remained kind of stagnant. And a kind of a town where everyone knows everyone's business.
Speaker: Yeah, 3600 people. That's like a high school population. This was also a small farming town where the downtown area covered less than three and a half square miles.
Speaker: but the Tallmans, you know, they were looking for a safe place. They're a young family. They want a good place to raise their kids. Alan actually worked at a manufacturing plant as the night shift supervisor and Debbie was a stay at home mom. So again, he's working nights and she's a stay at home mom. So she's got two and one on the way. That's a very, um,
Speaker: stereotypical of a like 1980s household. Yeah. And the home that they bought here in Horrocan, it was actually only four years old itself. And it was one that they were able to purchase on a low interest FHA loan. So they were like, this fits the bill. This is everything that we want.
Speaker: in a house. And they were making wonderful memories in their first year in the house. When they first moved in, like I said a second ago, there were only four of them. There was Alan, dad, Debbie, the mom, and then Danny, who was seven at the time, and Marianne was nearly two. And
Speaker: It wasn't long after they moved into the house in April, just a few months later in November of 1986, the family welcomed little Sarah as well.
Speaker: They're going to be a busy mommy and daddy. Yes. Near the end of her pregnancy, Debbie was pretty ill and so she was put on bed rest. So during that time of bed rest, Debbie's mom and sister would often stop in and check on her, check on the kids. Because remember, Alan's working night shift.
Speaker: And you know, he can't be there at all hours to take care of her. He has to keep going to work. And when her mom and sister would stop by, they actually told Debbie that there was just something off about the house that they didn't like. Like not physically or the layout, but something like a
Speaker: in the atmosphere, I guess. Yeah, it wasn't something where they said, oh, it needs a more open floor plan or anything. Yeah. So the cause of their distaste towards the house, like I said, it was something they couldn't pinpoint, but they would later say that whenever they would stop in, there was almost an overwhelming urge to get back out and get away. And they didn't feel that Alan and Debbie when they bought the home.
Speaker: This was just the mom and the sister? Right. This was the mom and the sister. And Alan and Debbie didn't report any initial feelings like that. But her mom and sister did. They said that when they would come in, it was almost as if they couldn't breathe or like they were being suffocated. And Debbie's sister would even become nauseous every time she would visit.
Speaker: Interesting. So then I wonder if we're going with, you know, this witch or spirit theory, if maybe they were just more affected by it than what Debbie or Allen were. Perhaps. We'll get there. And this something that was wrong, it was something that animals could sense as well.
Speaker: The Tallmans had purchased a kitten for the kids, but they soon found that the kitten would act erratically, especially after sunset. So, fine during the day. At night, the cat would zoom around the entire house, climb up doors, and just wreak havoc.
Speaker: And it was so bad that Alan tried putting the kitten in the bathroom at night, like, okay, you're not going to destroy the house while we're sleeping. But the cat would howl continually until he opened the door and then it would run around like crazy and even hang from the living room walls. And eventually the cat ran away.
Speaker: So cats are really weird. And one of my really good friends, she has a cat and he climbs up curtains and tries to climb up walls. But I'm going to guess this was more than just your normal crazy cat. This was like a crazy cat. That's what I'm thinking. Well, and especially because it wouldn't happen during the day. Yeah. Only after sunset. And then it was like, I've had too much peace out. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: But Maggie, it was in February of 1987 that things really changed. So remember, baby girl Sarah was born in November. So she's only about three months old at this point.
Speaker: So initially, Danny had had his own room, which was the largest one. And Marianne and Sarah had shared a smaller nursery type room. But, you know, Alan and Debbie were thinking, as the girls get older, there's two of them. So they're probably going to need the bigger room because they're going to have to share. So the Tallmans decided to switch the children's bedrooms.
Speaker: And in order to eventually make room for both girls, they decided to purchase a bunk bed that they would use as Sarah grew old enough to sleep in a big girl bed.
Speaker: And this is the haunted bunk bed. This is the bunk bed. But see, I feel like herein lies the first mistake because haunted or not bunk beds are evil. Oh, they give me major anxiety if they don't have the rails that are attached attached, you know? I feel like I've told you the story before, but I may not have. I fell off the top of my dorm bunk bed in college.
Speaker: when I was sleeping one night. Did I have, I told you this? No. Yes. Fell off the top bunk in my sleep and didn't wake up until I hit the paper thin carpet covering the slab floor. I actually thought, of course I woke up immediately when I hit, I thought I broke my nose. Oh yeah. Because I hit face first.
Speaker: And so I started screaming immediately, and I was saying, my nose, I think I broke my nose. And my roommate jumps out of bed. She runs over, she flips on the light, and I pull my hands away from my face. And facial wounds bleed a lot anyway. There was blood. I mean, it was dripping off of my hands. And so my roommate starts flipping out, and that is when it happened.
Speaker: I went into shock. I truly believe I did because I saw all the blood dripping on my hands and I just calmly stood up and I walked down the hallway to the bathroom. I washed my hands. I splashed water and washed my face off. And then I walked back to my room, just calm.
Speaker: And my roommate was so traumatized by all the blood. She was sitting on her bed, rocking back and forth. I swear to you. And I just looked at her and I said, I think I should go to the hospital for stitches. I mean, I said it as calmly as that. And of course, when I hit because it's dead weight, I mean, it was a thud.
Speaker: And so another girl down the hall actually woke up when I hit and she had come down, I guess when I was in the bathroom. So she was there when I came back and she actually drove me to the emergency room because my roommate couldn't drive. And so this, this girl down the hall drove me to the emergency room and I got six stitches right on the inside of my left eyebrow.
Speaker: we put after that both of the beds flat on the floor and I have never slept on the top of a bunk bed since. So in this week's case, it doesn't take a lot to convince me that a bunk bed is haunted and evil because I am predisposed to think that they are evil anyway. Sounds very traumatic. Yes. And this particular bunk bed
Speaker: was one that Ellen and Debbie had purchased at a secondhand store. Well, this is gonna make me not wanna buy anything from a secondhand place. Yeah, you don't know why it's there. And they had excitedly brought it home knowing that the kids were gonna be equally excited to see it because even though bunk beds are evil, kids love them. But it seems as though they brought more than just bunk beds into their home.
Speaker: Alan had taken the bed down to the basement to assemble it. And I don't know if he did that because it required a lot of construction and his tools were down there. But that's weird because then how would you get it back up, you know? Yeah, I know. And a few of the sources, not all of them, though, Allen kind of indicated that the bed was going to be a surprise. So maybe they were taking it down there and put it together.
Speaker: You know, so the kids don't see it until the final product. But it just would have seemed a lot easier to me if he had built it in the room itself. I'm just saying. Same. And almost immediately things changed. While the bunk bed's in the basement or after he brought it up? Yes. While the bunk bed is in the basement. But the changes were small at first, Maggie. Things that you could chalk up to almost anything else.
Speaker: So the children who were always very healthy and rarely ill began to get sick. So much so that Debbie was bringing them to the pediatrician several times a week. And sometimes it was just one child. Sometimes it was all three.
Speaker: But, you know, like I said, small things that you could chalk up to other other reasons. So, I mean, logically, you could think, OK, well, maybe this is just a particularly nasty season for viruses or something like that. You know, you could explain it away. You know, where my mind went, though, was I think it was a Patreon episode that we covered where the lady
Speaker: had the poison in the bottle or something like that. Yeah. You just keep your thoughts in there. Like shout them out when you think, but we'll talk about theories. But it continued this way for several weeks. In May, the Tallmans actually brought the bunk bed upstairs and placed it in the room beside Danny's. That same night, Danny woke up to a strange sound.
Speaker: His parents usually tucked him into bed and turned on the radio so that he could listen to calming music as he fell asleep. But somehow the station had changed. So he went to go tell his parents. Like he woke up and all of a sudden it's not the soothing music. It's like loud static. So Debbie came in to fix the station and she tucked Danny back into bed. But he was soon standing in front of them again.
Speaker: Again, he said, the station had changed. But the scariest part was what Danny said he saw. He said the dial knob on the radio seemed to be moving and turning on its own as it quickly switched between stations, the needle moving to one side and then moving to the other as the dial is turning.
Speaker: Well, obviously Danny was terrified. Yeah. He was terrified and he did what all kids do in a situation like this one. And again, he ran to his parents frantically telling them what he had just experienced, but you know, Danny's young. He's around seven.
Speaker: And obviously, it's not a person's first inclination to think, oh, I bet it's a poltergeist that's turning the radio knobs. So, you know, they're thinking, this is just Danny's imagination. Maybe it was just a bad but vivid dream or...
Speaker: You know, if it were true that the dial was switching, maybe it's a faulty radio, like there's something in it that's causing it to do that. So they took the radio out of his room and they sent him back to bed. Again, all was well for a few weeks.
Speaker: The next incident was also something small, but creepy nonetheless. Alan had been in the basement painting when Debbie had yelled down to him to take a break because it was time to eat.
Speaker: And knowing that he was going to come right back to it, Alan lay the paintbrush down on the edge of the paint pan. So not the can, but the pan, right? Where you're like, roll out your roller. And he came upstairs. He had a nice lunch with his family. When he returned to work, the paintbrush wasn't where he had left it. It wasn't on the floor. It wasn't on the table beside the pan.
Speaker: Instead, it was inside the paint can with the handle down and the bristles up. Okay, so obviously he knows he did not do that. Yeah, and there really is no logical explanation, but he just decided to brush it off as an accident somehow. Like, I don't know how this happened, but somehow it happened.
Speaker: and continued on. He didn't even tell Debbie about it at the time. And you know, the cat's no longer there at this point, so it wasn't like he could blame it on a cat or an animal or something. But that's weird. I'm sure he's thinking, you know, maybe I thought I put it in the pan, but I actually laid it on the can and it tipped right into the can. Yeah, I must be misremembering.
Speaker: Moments later, he thought he caught a glimpse of a shadow moving in the corner of the basement. But upon closer inspection, he didn't see any more movement. And again, he's convincing himself, all right, I'm just being jumpy. So he went upstairs for the rest of the day. But it wasn't just the family who began to experience strange things.
Speaker: Of course, I've already mentioned both the cat and Debbie's family. There was also a babysitter. A local girl was watching the kids while Alan and Debbie enjoyed a date night, but when they returned home, they did so to a frightened teen. She told them that she and Danny had been playing a board game in the kitchen when a rocking chair had begun moving on its own.
Speaker: It was first rocking on its own and then bouncing around. And this is not teen, what, like 87 now? So she would have had no way to call them. You know, now we can pick up the phone and call cell phones. It's not like you can leave the kids. Luckily, she was able to calm Danny.
Speaker: and eventually get him into bed. So he was in bed when Alan and Debbie got home, and she's telling this story. And she's freaking out. So having spoken with her while Danny was sleeping, Alan and Debbie waited until the next morning to talk to Danny. And they're asking him, is there anything abnormal that happened the night before? They want to make sure she's not making this up or whatever. And he told them an identical story.
Speaker: then nothing happens for a couple of months. So they're beginning to wonder, okay, are we just spooking ourselves out here?
Speaker: Mm -hmm, you know or more magic really exactly is it just because for something to happen and then weeks go by and nothing else happens I think that would be easy to do to just convince yourself. Okay, you know, this was nothing I'm just freaking myself out. But just as they began to wonder that the strange occurrences began escalating Doors would open and close on their own
Speaker: Alan and Debbie began arguing more frequently. They were on edge. They were testy. They were sleep deprived because the children began waking them up more and more often with nightmares and strange stories. This is kind of creepy, but like you said, so many of it, so much of it rather, I think you could almost explain away
Speaker: A draft in the house could call the door to open if it wasn't all the way closed or something like that. But then when you start having the really creepy nightmares and you're getting sleep deprived, so you're like, maybe we are imagining some of this. I just don't know. I know. I'm eager to see what keeps happening.
Speaker: So, Daniella DiRienzo wrote of the incidents in the house in her article for Only in Your State. She wrote, quote,
Speaker: Eventually, the entire family was being terrorized, doors slamming shut, items moving on their own, and phantom voices were just a few things the Tallmans experienced. Probably the scariest of all, though, is the red -eyed witch, which was seen by one of the children, end quote. And yes, Maggie, you heard that right, a witch.
Speaker: Okay. In the interim of time, you know, because I told you about an incident and I said, you know, several weeks past and then another incident several months past, two -year -old Mary Ann had begun to sleep on the bunk bed in the room that she shared with Sarah. And soon after she did so, her nightmares began and they were of a singular nature.
Speaker: When Debbie would come into the room to comfort Marianne after she was screaming after having had a bad dream, Marianne would say the same things, that there had been an old woman with long black hair and glowing red eyes behind the door of her room. Sometimes she would be there staring at Marianne. Other times,
Speaker: In her dreams, Mary Ann said the old woman would set fires in the bedroom. And so, you know, when Debbie would run in, there's no sign of a red -eyed witch, no sign of a fire. So again, as a parent, you think, okay, this is just a child's wild imagination.
Speaker: But it was a little bit disconcerting, though, that her nightmares, they were always the red -eyed witch fire, the red -eyed witch fire. But because Debbie's thinking, OK, maybe this is just her imagination, and out of fear of scaring the other children, Debbie kept that information to herself about what the content of the nightmares are. Oh, right, because then if Danny hears,
Speaker: then he may start dreaming of this red -eyed witch. And about a month after Mary Ann's nightmares began, Danny woke up screaming in the middle of the night. When Debbie ran into his room, he told her that he had woken up. So not in a dream.
Speaker: He said he had woken up and saw a long dark haired old woman who was glowing bright red like she was on fire. No ma 'am. And now I know why this house was only lived in four years before it was sold. Uh huh.
Speaker: Yep. You got a crazy witch living in there. Right. The nightmares grew in intensity and in frequency. The children were having nightmares of the witch nearly every night. Then they complained of weird noises. They couldn't sleep. They
Speaker: wouldn't only stay awake themselves, but obviously when they would wake up, it was waking Alan and Debbie up at night as well. And so again, tensions are rising because they're not getting sleep. The kids are terrified. They don't want to go to sleep because they keep having these nightmares. Mary Ann actually formed a relationship with a new imaginary friend around this time as well.
Speaker: And Debbie would walk in and Mary Ann would be talking or giggling with this imaginary friend. Okay. Are you getting ready to say, and I think you are, that maybe her nightmare started involving this friend as well? They did.
Speaker: Yeah. Before that same friend was someone about who Marianne would have nightmares and she became frightened of. So whatever it was, seemed to be terrorizing the children, right? They seem to be the focus because they're the ones having nightmares. Then it began to terrorize everyone.
Speaker: One evening Debbie had taken Alan to the hospital because he had a sinus infection and it had continued to grow worse. So Alan's mother had come over to watch the children while Debbie and Alan were at the hospital. The children had already been tucked into bed and Alan's mother had drifted to sleep on the living room sofa. When she woke
Speaker: She said she saw a pair of red eyes outside of the house, staring in the window right at her.
Speaker: So she's thinking, okay, I'm still half asleep. She quickly rubs her eyes. So she's thinking the sight, you know, this has to be just the vestiges of some bad dream, right? I just need to wipe them away. So she's rubbing her eyes, but as she moves her fists away from rubbing the sleep from her eyes, the red eyes were still there and bright as ever.
Speaker: I'd be like, kids, pack up your crap. We're going to Granny's house. That's right. Robe trip. But only a few moments later, Debbie and Alan returned home and Alan's mother ran out the door as they did so she could not get out of the house. So
Speaker: You may be wondering why the Talmans didn't themselves immediately leave the home. And it's because, like we were talking about earlier, much of the activity was sporadic. So they would have those times of chaos and then, and obviously near constant activity, and then a week of nothing.
Speaker: They did take one very important step though, a step that we saw the friends take in our coverage of the Humpty Doo poltergeist in episode 145. They called in their preacher. We need some holy water up in that place. That's right. The Talmans attend a church, but from what I could gather, semi -regularly at least. So they called in Pastor Wayne DeBratz from St. Stephen's Lutheran Church. That was the church they attended.
Speaker: As soon as he entered the home, he said he felt a strange and dangerous presence and almost immediately proclaimed that their house was under siege from the devil. Now, as a remedy, he told them to attend church every Sunday and to play religious music all the time and to pray.
Speaker: Then he prayed himself and blessed the house. But since we're only halfway through the episode, I'm sure you know that didn't work. My daughter and I love smoothies, but what we don't love are smoothie bar prices. With our Blinga 2 portable blender, we can make smoothie bar quality drinks for a fraction of the price.
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Speaker: for a little bit. Oh, good. Then they escalated with a fury. One evening, Alan came down to the basement to find that one of the basement windows had been removed and was propped against the basement wall. I'm sorry. Hold on.
Speaker: Like it hadn't been broken. It had been okay. And one piece. Yes. And no one was in the home who shouldn't be and nothing was taken. And Alan had an extensive rifle collection. All of it was there. And from what I read, this window was one where you would have to, if you were inside, be on a ladder to get it out. And there's no ladder down there. Hmm.
Speaker: Okay. So there's that. The refrigerator and other doors would open and close on their own. A suitcase would slide out from under the bed and then back again. That's creepy. The family would hear voices coming from rooms that they knew were empty.
Speaker: It's at that point I would be taking that suitcase, going to my closet and filling it up with my stuff. If I even touch that suitcase again, I might just go pull out my throw at my car. I'd be like, I'm not touching that. Something else has touched it. Debbie would hear the garage door opening and closing. Alan felt like someone was always watching him. And at times that when he walked into his home, he said,
Speaker: He felt like he was, quote, shutting himself in a tomb, end quote. Alan would even be at work and would be struck by these visions of coming home to see his entire family brutally murdered. So then this whatever's going on is happening beyond just the walls of their house now. Correct. Yeah, because he would get these visions he said at work.
Speaker: And Debbie had started getting nightmares, too. And she wasn't one who normally had nightmares. But her nightmares would be that her children were dying, that her father was dying, that Alan was dying. Those were the nightmares that she was getting. Little Danny was so scared by this point that he didn't even want to come into his home. Like, he would kick and scream when it was time for bed.
Speaker: and that happened especially so yeah it's very sad especially so after another terrifying nightmare a couple of weeks before christmas in 1987 did did they try ever
Speaker: Which I guess if it's affecting all of them, that wouldn't really help. But I was going to say maybe co -sleeping with their kids. But that probably wouldn't have done anything. I will tell you more in a minute. But Alan did start sleeping on the floor in his daughter's bedroom. He did do that. But this nightmare that Danny had right before Christmas, just a couple of weeks before Christmas, was so bad that Alan
Speaker: And again, he's sleep deprived, but he's also angry and he's frustrated that he yells out to the spirit at the top of his lungs, pick on me and leave my kids alone. If you want to fight, fight me. And it took him seriously. Oh, Alan. Oh. Three weeks later on January 7th,
Speaker: When Alan got home from his night shift around 2 a .m., he heard a howling sound coming from near his garage. So he went to go see what was causing it. He is a braver person than I.
Speaker: because I'd be like, that's right. Or like, get inside, lock the door. No, he went to go look and he doesn't see anything. I mean, it was so loud that he said that he thought that somebody was playing a trick on him. But then he gets closer. There's nothing. And then he heard it. A voice.
Speaker: And like you mentioned, this time it's not coming from, this isn't happening inside of his house, but outside. The voice said, come here. And it emanated from the direction of the garage. And it kept saying, come here, come here. And when Alan approached the garage,
Speaker: He saw a huge fire blazing inside. Like a real fire. He's not imagining it. Well, he sees a huge fire. And from within the flames, he saw two burning glowing red eyes staring out at him.
Speaker: So obviously thinking this is truly a fire, Alan ran inside the home to grab the fire extinguisher. So he quickly gathers his thoughts as soon as he gets inside, he sets down his lunch pail, because remember he's just gotten back from work, and he grabs the fire extinguisher. But when he gets outside with the extinguisher to put out the fire, there's no fire in the garage. Nothing was scorched, no smoke, nothing.
Speaker: Like he had like the dream and it's like the dream the kids were having, but instead of it being a dream. Yeah. So when he steps back inside, he reaches down and he's like, Oh, you know, I've just imagined this. Like I'm hallucinating. So he, he reaches down to pick up his lunch pail.
Speaker: that he had hastily sat down when he had taken the extinguisher out. But just as he had his lunch pail in his grips, he said he felt as if some force wrenched it from his hands and launched it across the room. Y 'all need to go to a hotel.
Speaker: And not knowing what else to do, because the rest of his family is asleep, he just tried to calm himself down and to go to sleep. Again, braver person than I. By this point, like I mentioned just a second ago, he had taken to sleeping on the floor in the girls' room because that was one of the only ways that they felt safe and calm enough to mostly sleep through the night on the seldom times that they did.
Speaker: So going to their room now to lie down, he was only asleep a short time before he woke up to see a fog in the room, almost like smoke that seemed to rise up from the floor. And then he saw a fire. And like you just said, this isn't happening like he's having a nightmare and then he wakes up and it's not there anymore.
Speaker: It's almost like with his mom. She thinks she's having a nightmare. She rubs her eyes. It's still there. So he woke up to see this fog smoke rising from the floor. And then a fire appeared with green eyes in the middle of the fire and a voice that seemed to come from the fire. These eyes are looking right at him. And it says, you're dead. So Alan, listen.
Speaker: Yep, yep, half way ran to wake up Debbie, but he was so shaken from this experience that he couldn't speak. She recalled that his lips were blue. He was shaking, physically shaking, tears streaming down his face, but he wouldn't talk when she was repeatedly asking him what happened.
Speaker: So Debbie again called the pastor and based upon the pastor's own experience with paranormal, he believed everything that Alan and Debbie told him. Just a few nights later on January 11th, 1988, and still traumatized by the experiences that he himself had when Alan had to work late
Speaker: He was working his next overnight shift. He asked a teenage relative of his to come to stay in the home with Debbie and the kids and to sleep in the room with the girls until they fell asleep and he got home around 2 a .m.
Speaker: Are we going to talk about later on, maybe in theories, I know you mentioned that they didn't leave because the things were sporadic, you know, and not constant, but they're getting so much more violent and more frequent. Do we talk about why they don't leave? Cause me myself and I would have had, we would have been gone already. Well, this night they do leave.
Speaker: Good for them. So on this night, on January 11th, when Alan had asked that teenage relative to stay, and this was a relative who didn't believe in demons or hauntings or anything like that. But after this night, his mind was changed. He awoke from his sleep. So he's staying the night in the girl's room. He wakes up.
Speaker: to see the shape of this evil old woman materializing before his eyes.
Speaker: He saw it. He starts screaming. The children see it. He screams for Debbie to come in. She was so overtaken by the sense of dread, so terrified that she couldn't even bring herself to go into the room. But she's screaming for that relative to grab the girls. And then she pushed everyone out of the house into the car and drove away.
Speaker: Yeah, and I would never come back. I'd be like, leave my stuff, don't need it. That was the final episode. That was all that they could take. And the family fled the home in the middle of winter, in the middle of the night. The family put the home up for sale. They were willing to take a loss just to get rid of it. But it wasn't the house that they believed was the root cause of their terrifying ordeal, but the bunk bed, because
Speaker: buying that bunk bed seemed to coincide with all of the visions and the actions that plagued the family. But didn't her sister and mom before the bunk bed came in said that they got weird feelings inside the house? They did. And we will talk about that. But things that the Tallman family actually experienced
Speaker: didn't happen until after the bunk bed was introduced. So they're thinking that is the cause. They destroyed the bunk bed and they actually placed the remnants in a landfill. Debbie said this of the bunk bed, quote, the beds were buried in a landfill where nobody will ever build.
Speaker: They took them out there and plowed them under," end quote. And the family did so in a private landfill, hoping that they would never be unearthed.
Speaker: Oh, God, so creepy. Yes. The Talman story and the case of the demon bunk bed was one of the first episodes of the new television series at the time called Unsolved Mysteries, appearing in its 1988 season on October 26th. So not long after the Talmans fled their home because they fled their home the beginning of 1988.
Speaker: And this aired in October. The episode was filmed in the actual Tallman home. So in their home, but the bunk bed, like I mentioned before, had already been destroyed. The Tallmans in the coverage on Unsolved Mysteries are interviewed, but they sit in shadows to protect their identity.
Speaker: They asked that their children's names be kept out of the media. And they asked that actors would play them in the reenactment because they didn't want to do it themselves. And they didn't want the attention that the story would bring. And it was that act of not wanting the attention, of wanting to be in the shadows, of wanting actors to play them that kind of added to the validity of their claims for a lot of people.
Speaker: because it doesn't seem like they're doing. In fact, the only way that they would even agree to have their experience aired on television was if those
Speaker: specifications were met, that their faces were obscured, their children's names were never released, and if they were played by actors. Right, because they never actually called the police, just the priest. So what was happening was just happening to them and maybe their family knew about some of it if they told them that. But somehow, despite the attempts to keep out of the public eye, word did quickly spread.
Speaker: as it often does in small towns. And I don't know how word necessarily got out, but it really could have been from anybody. I mean, the neighbors, seeing them flee in the middle of the night or hearing screams, the babysitter. I mean, there were all kinds of people who had some idea
Speaker: about it. The media soon began showing up along the street, which drew hordes of locals and out of towners who were eager to see the house. And listen, I'd be the opposite. I'd be like, where's the house? Okay, let me drive in the opposite direction.
Speaker: Yeah, and if I was their neighbor, I'd be like, whoop, we're moving too. Bye. That's right. I don't want it to be like roaches. It's going to like leave your house and come to mine. I don't want that. As weeks and months passed, and especially after the airing of the Unsolved Mysteries episode, rumor grew to lore concerning the Tallman home. Soon, the events that did terrorize the family were elevated
Speaker: to things akin to the Amityville haunting of the Lutz family. And I don't know how familiar you are with that. I just read the Amityville horror book about the Lutz family. And so, you know, soon the stories about what happened to the Tallmans, it was kind of confusing details from the Amityville haunting.
Speaker: with the Tallman experience. So people would say, oh, there was slime oozing down the walls. But that happened in Amityville, but not here with the Tallman. So I don't even know where Amityville is. It's in New York.
Speaker: Okay, so not even close. No. And others are whispering that there was a hole to hell in the basement of the Tallman home. But again, there's a little bit of a confusion here with the Lutz family in Amityville and the Red Room.
Speaker: in their basement. And there were even tales of a snowblower for the Tolman family, turning itself on and clearing off the driveway all by itself. Now that to me sounds like cash. I know. But none of those things happened to the Tolmans.
Speaker: What did result from the case growing in public attention were the attempts at vandalism and arson on the home, especially by those who believed there truly was an evil entity combined within its walls.
Speaker: The attempts grew so dangerous that since the Tallmans had already moved out, law enforcement actually released the address of the now vacant home because they were so afraid that vandalizers or arsonists would get confused and set the wrong house ablaze and kill an innocent family also living on Larrabee Street. So they're like, we better tell them which house it is. Yes. Now,
Speaker: You may not know the answer to this question. I may need to ask a realtor. But what happens to their because I know obviously they need to sell the home because if not then they are the owners of that home. And I know you have to pay like the interest or whatever on it. Does that just continue indefinitely. So like if they never sold this home they would just have to continue paying on it. Yeah. Or I guess file bankruptcy.
Speaker: Or if it's burnt down, can you claim the insurance then, I guess? I mean, as long as it's not proven arson. Hmm. I know. Well, sticky situation. Yeah. And others in town immediately began accusing the Ptolemans of staging this elaborate hoax in order to get out of their mortgage. So with an eye to the mixed reactions, let's discuss some potential theories.
Speaker: Okay. On the one hand, there are those who believe that the Tallman family made it all up. On the Facebook page for the paranormal couple,
Speaker: who posted about the unsolved mysteries coverage of this case. There are individuals who commented that they lived in Horrocan or even a few of them on the same street as the Tallmans growing up and that they do not believe that the family was truly haunted. They argue instead that they had always heard the couple wanted to get out of the mortgage and that
Speaker: One suspicious thing to them was always that the family who did eventually move in after the Tallmans never experienced anything odd. Why would they choose? I know this was similar to the Humpty Doo poltergeist theory, but I guess if you're wanting out of your mortgage, why would you choose
Speaker: to pretend your house is haunted instead of something else. Because potentially, if people are trying to set fire to the home or whatever, you could, like we were talking about a second ago, lose that investment altogether and just be screwed over pretty much. Right. Yeah, I don't think it makes any sense. Another person on that Facebook page claimed to have gone to school with the children
Speaker: and said that her father worked with Allen and that the whole experience was fabricated to get out of the mortgage. Again, she was like seven or eight. Right. And that's the other thing that I was going to say is we all know because we've experienced it. If you know the truth about something and you see how quickly rumors get spread and they escalate. And so, you know, it could be the case that I
Speaker: I don't know, stubbed my toe. And then by the end of the day, students are coming in and they're like, I heard that you broke your leg, you know, or something like that. So it happens a lot. And I think when there's doubt, it happens as well. So in this case, you know, people who maybe don't want to believe because they're scared and so they said, oh, they made it all up. And then that rumor starts getting spread.
Speaker: And still others have said that the Tallmans used the Amityville haunting as a template for creating their own haunting. But again, there are a lot, there are some similarities, but there are a lot of differences. I just also feel like that's a lot of work, but I mean, I'm sure some people probably have done it and maybe they were one of them. And you know, I would like to think that they were because this was really creepy and I don't want to think that it's real.
Speaker: I know, but to play devil's advocate, if they were making it up, you know, to try to prove those wrong who say that they were making it up. Of course, the family who moved in afterward didn't experience anything if the bunk beds were truly to blame because they've been removed and destroyed. Of course, they're not going to experience that. And I will say that it does seem like there were incidents in the home
Speaker: before the bunk bed arrived, like you said, that were peculiar, because Debbie's mom and sister always felt uneasy in the home, even from the time the family moved in. And I don't know much about evil or spirits. So maybe the house itself was primed for such an experience, and then the bed itself was just the vessel that caused it to happen.
Speaker: I don't know. I'll see where you're going. But I also want to mention for those who believe that the couple made up the whole thing in order to get out of their mortgage, I read in my research that Alan and Debbie turned down lucrative tabloid offers for the rights to print their story. So if you're doing this to try to get out of paying money, why wouldn't you make decisions that would gain you money?
Speaker: Exactly. Yeah. I read that the National Enquirer offered them $5 ,000. And remember, this is back in 1988. So $5 ,000 is a hefty sum. And they turned it down. I also saw in several sources that they turned down an offer to tell their story on the Oprah Winfrey Show. So they said no, because they said they didn't want to make money off of their children's misfortunes.
Speaker: Yeah, so Google says that $5 ,000 in 1998 would be nearly $13 ,000 today. Yeah. So that's a significant chunk of change. And in fact, in the process of getting out of their mortgage, they actually lost several thousand dollars. Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker: So that to me, especially combined with them not wanting their faces seen, they wanted their faces obscured in the episode and their children's names kept out of the media, that doesn't sound like someone who was making up a story for profit or even to get out of a mortgage.
Speaker: Yeah, all valid points. Yeah. There are others who look for a more logical explanation because they're thinking, OK, well, in hindsight, obviously, we were in 1987 and 1988 in the midst of the satanic panic here in the US. And we talked a lot about the fear of the occult in our coverage of the West Memphis Three Case in episodes 135, 36 and 137.
Speaker: And so there was a real fear in the 80s of the occult, of Satan infiltrating small towns. So people were looking for logical explanations. And in terms of potential logical explanations, we actually have two.
Speaker: two essential logical explanations. The first and most prominent from those who want to explain away the events on Larrabee Street is a gas leak. There is actually a group based out of Buffalo, New York called the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of the Paranormal who have stated
Speaker: that many of the claims from the Tallmans about their experiences are similar to other cases of families who experience similar phenomena as hallucinations caused by a gas leak. OK, I need to hear more. OK, so according to Leah Tierney's October 31, 2020 article in The Stute, and this is a long quote, but it'll explain it all, quote,
Speaker: The confusion of carbon monoxide poisoning for spiritual haunting was recorded in a 1921 issue of the American Journal of Ophthalmology by Dr. William Wilmer. Wilmer writes of the distress of his patient, Mrs. H, who tells him the troubles her family have been experiencing since moving into an older and decrepit house.
Speaker: Frequently using gas lights in the absence of electricity, Mrs. H. and her family began to be tormented by visions, voices, and physical illness. The family was petrified by the sounds of footsteps and moving furniture in empty rooms and by sinister apparitions in the dark.
Speaker: Mrs. H and her family had unexplained fatigue, pain, and headaches for months, but this was not an isolated incident. In 2016, investigative journalist Carrie Poppy discussed a similar paranormal experience in her TED Talk.
Speaker: Poppy described agonizing chest pains and a constant sense of dread. Despite seeing psychiatrists calling ghost hunters and trying cleansing rituals, Poppy was still afflicted by the supernatural. In both cases, the seemingly paranormal activity was actually caused by carbon monoxide poisoning." Okay. Okay.
Speaker: So then this could explain why the sister would get sick when she was over there. Yeah. Because she was exposed to all of this. And it could explain all of the visions and hallucinations they were having and maybe even their trips to the doctor's office. Yeah. Could be explained by this. But why did the family after them not have any issues or other people on their street. Yeah. I mean that's.
Speaker: That's a great point. And it is true that about a year after the Tallmans moved out of their home, the Wisconsin Power and Light Company did come in to replace faulty gas fittings in several homes in the neighborhood. But the Tallman home was not one of the homes.
Speaker: And like you just said, the family who moved in after the Tallmans didn't experience anything. So if it were a gas leak that were causing all of these experiences when the Tallmans lived there and the leak was never fixed, then one would think that the next family would have similar experiences or at least have gotten sick from the leak if that were the logical cause and they didn't. I want to believe this because then it means that
Speaker: You know what happened to them wasn't real, but there's, you know, a flip side to every coin, I guess. There is. And additionally, from my research, it seems that carbon monoxide hallucinations happen only in cases with a high level of carbon monoxide in the leak and
Speaker: with long -term exposure. And I don't know how long qualifies as long -term, but we did have Debbie's mom and sister, the babysitter, the teenage relative, and Alan's mom, who were not full -time residents of the home, who were seeing or feeling things.
Speaker: Plus, we have Alan's experience with the voices and the vision of the garage on fire that took place outside of the home. And at his work. And at his work with those visions. A second logical explanation that I only heard mentioned on Hector Navarro's podcast, Myths, Mysteries and Monsters was black mold.
Speaker: So I decided to do a little research on the side effects to compare with the Tauman family's experiences. An article for National Post titled, The Truth Behind Haunted Houses, toxic molds can cause severe psychosis and hallucinations, researchers say.
Speaker: It stated the following, quote, the idea that certain toxic molds or fungi called the rye ergot fungus are able to cause severe psychosis in people who breathe in the hard to detect fumes they project when the air is contaminated
Speaker: The brain can place subtle tricks on you, a sudden chill, a movement in the corner of your eye, or potentially other ghastly and hallucinatory illusions."
Speaker: So far, however, Maggie, scientists have only specifically been able to link the breathing in of those mold spores to psychiatric symptoms like mood swings, irrational anger, memory loss, and hyperactivity. So a few, but not all of the Talmans experiences. And obviously, only time and more research will tell if mold potentially in this secondhand bunk bed.
Speaker: could explain everything in this case. But so far, it hasn't been able to. And then finally, that leaves us with the only other explanation. Those who believe that their experiences were a legitimate haunting. That what is true of other objects like dolls, masks, bottles, coins, could also be true for a bunk bed.
Speaker: and that it brought with it an evil presence into the home that truly tormented this family. And I mean, that's a lot of people, including a preacher, to trick into a fake story.
Speaker: And there were so many people who reported seeing similar things, fires, red eyes, nightmares of death. And plus there are cases of legitimate haunting. So why couldn't this be one of them as well? And how frustrating must it be if something like this is truly happening to you and no one believes you?
Speaker: So Maggie, what are your thoughts? Oh, like I've said, I really want it to be a logical explanation because then I know that, you know,
Speaker: the the fire and the red -eyed witch weren't real and that'll help me sleep better tonight um it just is also like you we talked about there are two sides to all of these theories and it could easily be explained one way or the other
Speaker: My question is, like you said, how long is long term? Like how long would Debbie's mom or sister or Alan's mom need to be exposed to the mold or the carbon monoxide or whatever for them to have these type of visions? All I know is I'm going to have trouble sleeping tonight. I know. Science may prove me wrong eventually.
Speaker: But science can't discount everything in the story yet. As Robert Stack, host of Unsolved Mysteries, stated, quote, the Talmans feel they were in a battle with forces they do not understand. A battle they were destined to lose, end quote.
Speaker: After the family moved out, as Debbie Tallman said in the Unsolved Mysteries coverage, people would ask them, is this something that could follow you? She replied that she wouldn't have believed it could have happened the first time, so she doesn't know if this is the end of the story. Debbie went on to say of the experience, quote, I think it's going to be a long time before things get back to normal.
Speaker: I still cannot sit at home at night and not be afraid of the dark." I will say that no other reports have surfaced of the Tallman family being haunted in the years since, nor were the couple who moved next into the home on Larrabee Street, tormented by any entities. Was this an evil spirit toying with its prey?
Speaker: the result of a logical explanation that played out in seemingly illogical ways, or was it a complete hoax? I don't pretend to know the answer to that question, but I do know that this case just reaffirms my already solid belief to never trust a night's sleep in a bunk bed.
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