Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The past was a much quieter place - Ep 12
565 Plays1 year ago
In this episode Matilda chats to musician and metalsmith Samuel Meric; a specialist in the reconstruction of the carnyx - a Celtic brass instrument best known for being blasted across ancient battlefields. But how does the carnyx actually work? And how would they have been played? Tune in to hear all about souvenirs of the earliest European gap year, prehistoric cauldrons and the stories they tell, and why big ears are important.
Transcripts
For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/teabreak/12
Links
- John Kenny playing different carnyces
- Obrador Forge and Craft homepage
- Nedergoth YouTube channel
- Gofannon YouTube channel
Contact the Host
- Email: [email protected]
- https://www.thearchaeologiststeacup.com
- insta: @the_archaeologists_teacup
- fb: /TheArchaeologistsTeacup
- twitter: @ArchaeoTeacup
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store
Affiliates
- Motion
- Motley Fool
Save $110 off the full list price of Stock Advisor for your first year, go to https://zen.ai/teafool and start your investing journey today!
*$110 discount off of $199 per year list price. Membership will renew annually at the then current list price. - Laird Superfood
Are you ready to feel more energized, focused, and supported? Go to https://zen.ai/teabreaktimetravel1 and add nourishing, plant-based foods to fuel you from sunrise to sunset. - Liquid I.V.
Ready to shop better hydration, use my special link https://zen.ai/teabreaktimetravel to save 20% off anything you order.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to Tea Break Time Travel, where every month we look at a different archaeological object and take you on a journey into their past.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello, and
Meet the Guest: Samuel Merich
00:00:18
Speaker
welcome to episode 12 of Tea Break Time Travel. I'm your host, Matilda Ziebrecht, and today I'm savoring a spiced black tea. And joining me on my tea break today is musician and metalsmith, Samuel Merich. And are you also on tea today? No, I don't have any tea or hot drinks. I'm not a very tea person, I would say. You're the second guest who's come on and said, I don't actually drink tea.
00:00:45
Speaker
But do you, I mean, just from looking at your work and everything, I can imagine, I don't know, pint of mead or something. No, I prefer to not be under the influence of alcohol while walking. True, yes, working around hot metal, probably not a good idea.
00:01:03
Speaker
And
Path to Metalsmithing and Music
00:01:04
Speaker
indeed, so as I mentioned, so you are a metalsmith and a musician, how I found you and how I know of you is through your work with now. I realised when I was looking this up that I don't actually know how to say this word out loud. I've written it many times. Is it carneks?
00:01:21
Speaker
Yes, Cornix. Okay, perfect. I realized I was spelling it wrong, like my whole life. So I was saying like, Carinks. And with the Y and the, anyway, so yes, Carinks. And so that seems sort of very specific. How did you get into that idea? So prehistoric metalworking and music combination?
00:01:40
Speaker
It all started in 2019 when I applied for a job in the Guy Lake Village where I still work now. A friend of mine was the blacksmith of this village and he lived so I went to apply as a blacksmith because I was doing blacksmithing on my own for something like six or five years.
00:02:02
Speaker
Then they told me they have blacksmiths and they proposed me to go for coppersmith that I never did before and at the same time the manager of the of the village told me they wanted to make a conics for the village and of course I knew what was this instrument I knew a little bit about it and I was very excited about it.
00:02:25
Speaker
So they told me how to make couple smithing. I did a few exercise by basic things. And then it was pretty easy because I had a blacksmith's background. And so at some point I started to work on the, the conics to make which churches to understand how it was made first. I made a first prototype.
00:02:49
Speaker
in 2019. And then the season at the village stopped because it stopped at the beginning of the fall, the autumn. And when I went back home, I wanted to make one conics for myself. So I made more research and I finally made a first walking prototype.
00:03:10
Speaker
Amazing. So you said that you started with blacksmithing, and I mean, from what I have very limited experience with this, but from what I remember of blacksmithing and copperworking, they're very different metalworking techniques, right?
Blacksmithing vs Coppersmithing Techniques
00:03:24
Speaker
Yes. Blacksmithing, so it's working with hot iron or steel.
00:03:30
Speaker
And copper smithing, it's like tin smith in English. It's working with sheets, layers of copper-based alloy metals like brass, bronze, copper. And you work mostly cold instead of the blacksmithing where you work with hot metal.
00:03:52
Speaker
And would you say then it took you, I mean, obviously, I don't want you to say if one's harder than the other, for example, but I mean, for example, if you know how to do blacksmithing, is it easier to pick up coppersmithing than maybe vice versa? Or are they fairly comparable in terms of the skills you need?
00:04:11
Speaker
No, I would say it definitely helped me to have made blacksmithing before because you work with hammers with pair of tongues also and you have unit fire also at some point for warm up your metal and coppersmithing. So it was the same tools basically and the same way of holding a hammer. So yes, it helped you to have made some blacksmithing before.
00:04:38
Speaker
And did you also then kind of specialise when you were doing it as, I guess, a hobby before? Did you specialise in historic or prehistoric techniques as well? Or were you working as like a modern blacksmith or hobbying as a modern blacksmith? No, I'm working as a modern blacksmith and coppersmith because working like they did in the Iron Age is very hard. I mean, I'm alone in my workshop and they weren't, obviously, because there was a lot.
00:05:07
Speaker
If you don't have power tools or torch gas flames, you need to be many people working to have a workflow and to be able to do the steps that you do now along with power tools.
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's true. I hadn't really thought of that before, because indeed, my very small experience I had with blacksmithing, my husband and boyfriend at the time came along to be the bellows boy and do the bellows and everything. So I guess... Now, for example, the welding, the cornices are welded with tin.
00:05:45
Speaker
And nowadays, we use a torch flame and a tin wire and the product to clean the metal before welding. But back in time, they had to use flames of candles and also a red-hot barge of steel to warm up the metal. And it might have been very difficult because today it's not very easy to master a tin welding properly with modern tools. So I don't even want to imagine how old they did back in time.
00:06:16
Speaker
a lot of burns, I imagine. Very thick leather. But did you also... I won't give too much away because we're going to talk about it in a second, but the specialty that you're looking at is from a prehistoric and historic time period.
Interest in Prehistoric Societies
00:06:29
Speaker
Were you always interested in those time periods?
00:06:31
Speaker
I used before to work at this village, I used to be very into medieval things, medieval music, medieval history, medieval things. And then working in this village opened my eyes on the proto-historic and prehistoric and iron age times because of that work.
00:06:50
Speaker
No, that's really fascinating. And I think you might be the first guest I have who's more, from a European perspective at least, who's not just prehistory, because I have to admit, probably I'm a little biased in most of the objects I pick are from prehistory, because I am a prehistorian. So that's really interesting to have someone from both perspectives. And on that note, if you could travel back in time, where do you think you would go and why?
00:07:15
Speaker
I would definitely go to Neolithic, the end of Paleolithic and maybe also the Bronze Age. It's time periods I really like because it's full of mystery and it's also the beginning, the starting point of our modern society nowadays.
00:07:36
Speaker
And it will be very interesting to see how people or society was organized at the time. Also for the Bronze Age, it's because I really love the bronze metal itself and all the things it represents in terms of transforming the societies and also the way of working the metal itself. Yeah, you could see how they were doing with what you were talking about before with welding the pieces together.
00:08:04
Speaker
Well, thank you very, very much for joining me on my tea break today. And before we look at today's object, which we've already mentioned a little bit, we're first going to journey back, this time to 100 BC, to Iron Age. And now I'm probably going to mispronounce this. Tan-tan-niak? Tan-tan-yak. Tan-tan-yak, yes. I'm in France. High school French didn't let me down.
00:08:21
Speaker
And unlike our usual peaceful journeys to the past, this one is filled with noises, smells, emotions, hundreds of people fill the space, the smell of sweat, blood, mud permeates the air, screams and cries, and the clashing of metal on metal, metal on leather, metal cleaving through skin.
00:08:39
Speaker
But then suddenly, there's another sound, a loud, blasting call that reverberates around the hills and within every head. Looking up to the top of the nearby hill, you see a line of figures, each one blowing into the end of a around two-metre-long bronze horn. Each horn is topped with a beautifully crafted head, wide ears, carved eyes gaping jaws, from which emits the blasting noise.
00:09:03
Speaker
And that's what we're looking at today, which is indeed, as I've recently discovered, a karenix, not a karenix. And we'll get into the details soon. But first, I always like to have a look at the most asked questions on the internet. And this is when I realized I've been spelling it wrong because I was looking up karenix and nothing was coming up. And I was going, how is this possible? Surely, surely something exists on Google about the
The Carnyx: Sound and Structure
00:09:26
Speaker
karenix. And then I realized, oh, wait, it's not. It's the karenix. So anyway, here are the questions.
00:09:31
Speaker
So the first question was, what does a Carnix sound like? Which, Samuel, as you have created, I guess, several replicas at this point, you'll have a good idea of this. So what does a Carnix sound like? Yeah, actually, I can play it for you right now, if you want. Oh, amazing!
00:10:18
Speaker
That's it. Very cool. Thank you so much for playing that. I didn't even think to ask you to play it, so thank you for offering.
00:10:28
Speaker
So you have high notes and low notes. Low notes are a bit like a didgeridoo. And then you have these high notes, which are a bit like a trombone, I would say, or a modern brass instrument.
00:10:43
Speaker
And actually, this relates to the second question, which is, how does a karneks work? Because I was also curious about this, so I play the French horn. So I'm familiar with that kind of mouthpiece. And I guess it's similar because karneks don't have finger holes or anything like that, right? No, it's a natural horn, I would say.
00:11:04
Speaker
So you don't have any holes or keys to play the notes. It's all by the power of your breathing and the shape of your lips. So it's like any other brass instrument. You have to make your lips to play, to make a sound. And then by mixing the air and the shape of the lips, you have all the notes.
00:11:29
Speaker
And also, what is very interesting on the mouthpiece of the Cornix is that it is flat. On most of the modern brass instruments, you have some kind of little cup where you put your lips. But on the Cornix's mouthpieces, it's flat. You don't have any cup. So that makes the sound less middly. It removes some middles in the audio frequencies
00:11:58
Speaker
I'm trying to imagine how I would play that. I'm trying to think because I have a horn that I got in some antique market somewhere, which it's not completely flat, but indeed it's got a very wide and flat rim to it, which makes it very difficult for me to play at least because I'm used to the little French horn ones.
00:12:20
Speaker
Interesting. Oh, amazing. Yeah, very cool. But we'll talk about that a little bit more in a sec, because we're going to go into more detail. Okay. But the last question from our lovely audience on Google search is, are karnix animals? I guess by this, they mean the kind of design of it. Well, it certainly has an animal head on the top.
00:12:42
Speaker
The word carnix itself refers to these animals, because the word carnix is a Greek word that comes from Northern Africa. In French, it has the same etymology as carnesier, carnivore, carnivorous, and so it refers to this animal. Okay, so it's not necessarily a particular kind of animal, it's more a sort of type.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yeah, actually all the conditions found in the ground are worth poor, except one in Titinac, which is a snake, and the archaeologists think it might be a snake with goat horns, but the goat horns were never found, because the snake with a goat head is a very common figure in Celtic mythology. Interesting. Do you replicate the same kind of design each time, or do you base it on a design but it's your own design, or how does that work?
00:13:39
Speaker
I always make the same head and the same conics. I based my work on the discoloury of the Intinyak. In this discovery, there are six conuses found and it's something like four or five different heads. I don't remember exactly.
00:13:59
Speaker
So I picked one head and I picked one pair of ears, but we don't know if that ear were linked to that head. And also I picked one crest, but we don't know if that crest belonged to the same head and ears, conics.
00:14:16
Speaker
Because most of the time, if you type Koenigstentinjak in Google, you'll see one Koenigst, it's the biggest one. And that one is very famous, but that one is very well made by other coppersmiths. So I decided to make another one that was not made based on the discovery of Tintinjak. Okay, interesting. And that's really interesting then that they wouldn't have necessarily all been the same, like they would have all potentially been different mixes.
00:14:44
Speaker
No, it's different heads every time. Oh, interesting. As I said, most of the time it's a wild boar, but it's very different stylized and very in a ghoulish and occultic style, so it's very with weird shapes.
00:15:04
Speaker
And how many of the kind of archaeological pieces have you looked at? Would you say it would be each design is from a different coppersmith or could it be that the same coppersmith is making variations with each replica based on your own experience as well?
00:15:21
Speaker
It's interesting, it's very interesting, but very few heads were found by archaeologists, head of Cornix, mostly so in France, in Dittinax. Six heads, but two or three of them are not full. Also, in north of France, a long time ago, a small piece of the left side of another Cornix, of a head, I mean, were found. Also in Italy, in San Zeno, I think, a piece of the head.
00:15:49
Speaker
And they are all kind of similar in style, but different from each other. And then you have the famous desk fold comics find Scotland. And this one has a very different head that one found in on the continent, I would say.
00:16:10
Speaker
So, of course, every CONUS is found nowadays. We're made by different crafters because they are very spaced in time. I mean, the conics in Titiania, I think, belongs to the first century BC, but the other ones in the other parts of Europe are older or younger.
00:16:33
Speaker
So they were made by different people, but you can see some kind of same style in it. But that's for the comics of the Xford. It's a very different style in it. Is that the one where I'm just thinking of Brave, the Pixar film, and there's like a comic to include in that one? Well, and it's got like a tongue? Yes, a wooden tongue. It's way more round.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah, and it's got like big eyes, the kind of round eyes. Yes. Yeah, I think I know. I think I know the one.
00:17:11
Speaker
Hey everybody, Chris Webster here to talk about one of the latest supporters to the Archeology Podcast Network, The Motley Fool. Now, I've been investing in the stock market through various applications for a few years now, and everybody who's listening to this can benefit from that sort of investment for the long-term financial planning. And also, I know the host of these podcasts can benefit because as archeologists, like none of us get retirement, we all have to kind of fend for ourselves. So investing in the stock market is a good idea, but not everybody can do it.
00:17:37
Speaker
And look, we get it. The market is complicated and confusing and to many of us, it simply doesn't make sense. In fact, where do you even start? Take all of the guesswork out of it with the Motley Fool Stock Advisor. The Motley Fool has been around for over 25 years and has been spot on in recommending some of the world's most important companies before they hit the big time. I'm talking about Amazon, Tesla, Netflix, Starbucks, all before they exploded in value. With their easy to use and super informative service, Stock Advisor,
00:18:02
Speaker
you could join the ranks before they potentially find the next big thing. After all, their average stock recommendation is up over 400% as of April 10th, 2023, and no need to be intimidated by financial jargon or market complexities. As the name suggests, these guys don't take themselves too seriously. Now, finances, that's a different story. Their friendly and relaxed approach has helped over 700,000 people move closer to financial independence, all while beating the market and having fun.
00:18:26
Speaker
New members can access Stock Advisor for only $89 for their first year at full $110 off the full list price. Don't sit on the sidelines and think about what could have happened. Visit fool.com slash APN to start your investing journey today. That's $110 discount off of $199 per year list price. Membership will renew annually at the then current list price. So again,
Role of the Carnyx in History
00:18:49
Speaker
check the link in the show notes of this episode.
00:18:51
Speaker
So on which note, let us move on to the next section. So we do know a bit more about the Carnix. Thank you, Google search. And thank you, Samuel. But perhaps you could tell us more about it. So we've already talked a little bit about kind of the physical evidence that we have for Carnix. And I mean, it sounds like there's not that much actually, do we have other like written evidence for them?
00:19:12
Speaker
There is written evidence and there is also visual sources. The written evidence were written by Greeks and Romans people talking about the Celtic tribes. And they said most of the time that they used the conics on the battlefield to put fear into the enemy and to make themselves strong before the attack.
00:19:36
Speaker
And also sometimes, that is a bit weird, they said they make very high pitched notes with it. And they also said that there is a lot of this instrument on the battlefield. But it does not refer specifically as the conics, they said brass instrument in general.
00:19:56
Speaker
Okay, so do you think that there may have been multiple types? Now I'm speaking as someone who has absolutely no idea about this, but how many different kinds of horned brass instruments were there at this time around Europe or in the Celtic countries?
00:20:16
Speaker
We don't really know. During the Iron Age for the Celtic tribes, it's mostly the comics. But during prehistoric times in Ireland, for example, you have very many different horns, bronze horns. But that is way before the Iron Age. But the problem with this instrument is that it can be remelted and it is a very expensive metal. So I think when people did not have the use of it anymore,
00:20:45
Speaker
They just remelt it and make new objects in bronze with it. Even back then, the arts were just not appreciated. They were remelting down all these instruments. Indeed, you mentioned just then, and we sort of talked about when we did our little time travel segment as well, that the assumption is that they were used in battle. Do you agree with this? I mean, I assume that you don't use it in battle now when you have your replicant.
00:21:09
Speaker
No, I don't have a lot of views in battle with the comics. But yeah, that was what the Greeks and the Romans brought us. And it might be true for sure, but also they didn't write many things. But thanks with the discovery of Tintinac, archaeologists also think these instruments were used during religious rituals.
00:21:35
Speaker
and ceremonies, because the conics of the Netanyahu were found into a Gaulish sanctuary, and also the cornices were destroyed by the Gauls before to be put in this sanctuary in the ground.
00:21:49
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah, like, you know, sacrificing the weapons, the swords, destroyed and put in the ground, so the same way. So this is why archaeologists think it might also have been used for rituals. And also very interesting on the on the conuses, the mouthpiece is straight, not curved. So it's very hard to play it in the battlefield because you have you need to have your head back, bounced back.
00:22:17
Speaker
to play the conics. Or you have to be too, with someone holding it in front of you. You don't have a curved mouthpiece, I don't know if you see what I mean. Yeah, so you have to have your head. If it's going to be straight up, you have to have your head like all the way. Yes, so it's not very convenient on the battlefield. And all the mouthpits of conicies ever found are straight. There is only two mouthpits found, one in Tintinac and one in Sanzemo in Italy.
00:22:44
Speaker
And they are both very similar, and both of them are straight. And we never found any curved mouthpiece for COVID-19. But speaking of what I was saying two minutes ago, I said also you have visual representation of the CONICS. And one of the most famous is the one of the Kindestrip cauldron. Ah, yes. You can see a military protest and three people playing the CONICS at the end of the protest.
00:23:15
Speaker
And they're playing the conics with their head right, not back. So like if the mouthpiece were curved. But this koron is a bit of an issue because it was not made by Celtic tribes. It was made by a central European tribe. I don't remember the name.
00:23:36
Speaker
And it was made for Celtic tribes, so the people creating that design were not Celts, and we don't even know if they already saw before conics in use. Because when you get closer and look at the mouth and the mouthpiece of the conics, you can see it's not very clear, it's a bit really shaped, like if the artist didn't know how it was really made.
00:24:03
Speaker
That's almost similar to those, all those medieval tapestries, right, of picturings of hairs and they just look like, I don't know, rhinoceros or something. Like, you know, you can tell the artist was told, just do this animal. They had no idea what it looked like. So I guess someone was told, do a carnax. And they were like, okay, I guess I'll do it this way. Which then with your replicas, are you making them also then with the straight or with curved?
00:24:27
Speaker
I make both customers gain other straight curves or both. I also made a screwing system that allows you to switch mouthpieces. And so when you play the straight one, because I'm just thinking from a brass playing perspective, it would be so hard just to get the airflow if you've got your head all the way back. So I mean, when you play it with a straight mouthpiece, do you have it kind of lying flat instead?
00:24:56
Speaker
Yeah, when I play on stage with my band, I have a leg holding the conics, so I played in front of me. It's very more convenient. But when I make the demonstration at the Celtic Village, I play it with my head, bounce back to show people that it was how it could have been used back in time. Amazing. Oh, that's really interesting. And indeed, that's really interesting that it was
00:25:18
Speaker
depicted by other people in a different way. So, yeah, you don't know how much, whether people maybe did see it, and indeed they did, the Karnix were straight up, but then they weren't really paying attention to the heads of the players, or whether they just assume, oh, it's this really long thing, therefore it must be played straight up. Fascinating.
00:25:38
Speaker
Because also, now I'm just really thinking about this, because the heads, I guess if you would play it, when you play it straight, do you play it that the head is facing up or the head, like the head of the Karnix is facing up or the head is facing down? The head is facing up.
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah, because otherwise the sound would go into the floor. Yeah, it's way more interesting to have the sound with the head hub. Oh, fascinating. Now I want to try one. Let's see how it is. One day, I will try one.
00:26:10
Speaker
And so, yeah, no, that's really fascinating. And then we've talked a little bit already about that there are other kind of brass instruments. And I guess, I mean, obviously nowadays you don't have like horns in battle, but like in historic times and even medieval and kind of pre-modern times, you had still that idea of the heralds in battle kind of coming in with the horns. So I guess it has developed from that, would you say? Or do you think it's kind of the karnix of the karnix?
00:26:40
Speaker
Yeah, sorry. It's very, it's very interesting to see that brass instruments are still in use in the military purpose, I mean, and they obviously it was also back in the Iron Age. And I think it also was during the Bronze Age because of the Scandinavian Bronze Duers, you know, this S shape. Yeah.
00:27:05
Speaker
that comes from the Bronze Age in Scandinavia, mostly Denmark, also a little bit of Northern Germany and south of Sweden and Norway. These are very big horns, mostly found by pairs, and they are from 1000 BC, something like that, I think.
00:27:27
Speaker
And we also think they were used in battle. So the story of brass instrument during battles is started way back in time. I mean, let's be honest, they are the most epic sounding instrument. I always say, when we're listening to films, I always sort of nudge my friends and go, that's the French horn in the background, because it always just sounds so cool. If you have an epic film soundtrack or anything, it's always going to be brass instruments.
00:27:55
Speaker
And you also have to think that back in time the word was very more silent. So having this kind of sound were really extraordinary.
00:28:08
Speaker
true yeah yeah it would have been frightening yeah to have that that loud and especially i mean out on a battlefield but even if you were in any kind of inside or or or kind of echoing area it would have been even more so which yeah yeah fascinating oh amazing so because the the karnix is indeed associated as you mentioned before with kind of keltic peoples
00:28:32
Speaker
And this idea that you said as well before with the style and the design is very much kind of Celtic style as well with the animal heads, the boar head or the snake or that kind of thing on the top. Do we see that so instruments with animal heads on them or that kind of thing progress after the kind of end of the Celtic
00:28:57
Speaker
I don't know what you would call it. It's not really the end of the Celtic culture, but when it kind of moves on and progresses in time, do we see that continue or is it limited to the sort of early Celtic peoples? So do you mean, do we see an evolution of the comics? Yeah, I guess that's an easier way to say it. I was just saying in about 20s and what.
00:29:20
Speaker
No, I don't think so. I don't have in mind any other kind of horns with animal head at the top. I don't think I came across that except for the Conices. When the Celtic tribes, the Celtic people were mixed to the Romans and other cultures,
00:29:40
Speaker
I don't know. I speak from the French point of view where it mostly became a Roman culture. And I don't know. I don't think these kinds of horns were very in use anymore.
00:29:58
Speaker
which is such a shame because they're so cool. Do you think that maybe they were just, I don't know, the Romans or the next people who came and were conquering just sort of thought, nope, this isn't in line with what we think? I don't know. I have no idea.
Cultural Significance and Evolution of the Carnyx
00:30:19
Speaker
And also, as I told earlier, it could be remelted that you have the metal reused.
00:30:25
Speaker
Which is just so sad to think how many possible characters there were.
00:30:33
Speaker
But no, I find that really interesting. I also always find it interesting. I mean, I use the term Celtic in this podcast, but that term in itself is very problematic, I guess, because there's so much diversity within it. And indeed, like you said, they were kind of mixed in through all these things. But it is interesting that you do have objects like the Carnix, which are kind of, they can be associated with that concept, I guess, the Celtic concept, which is always interesting.
00:31:02
Speaker
And I'm also curious, I just wanted to ask as well, so you had experience as well before with playing brass instruments, you mentioned a band already, is that also something that kind of affected how you look at the archaeology, so when you're creating replicas, does your understanding as a musician affect how you interpret?
00:31:26
Speaker
the archaeology, or how does that work in your process of replication, shall we say? I never played any brass instrument before the conics, but I play a lot of other instruments, string and wind instruments also.
00:31:44
Speaker
And when I first recreated, remade the colonics based on the archaeological paper of Tintinag, I had to tune it because it was not tempered, as we say, it's a musical term that means that it's in the scale of the Western modern music.
00:32:07
Speaker
So I had to tune it to be able to play this instrument with other modern instruments. Otherwise it will sound false wrong. Interesting. Which yeah, I guess is something, I mean, that's always something when they talk about kind of ancient music and all of that, that it's such a, it's so based on our interpretation or how we play it and all of that kind of, yeah, I didn't even think about the tuning side of things.
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah, so every time I make a conic, I tune it, but not if the customer wanted like the archaeological tuning, I just leave it that way. But because it's mostly for playing with other instruments, I tune it. So I just have to cut the beginning of the tube and try until the notes are right. Have you ever gone too far and then it just gets to the head and you're like, ah. No, I'm very careful.
00:33:03
Speaker
But that's also fascinating. And actually, I'm curious, I'm said in our little time travel section that they're about two meters long. How big are they, though? I'm sort of picturing in my mind two meters, but I couldn't find any real... Do you mean the length of the conics? Yeah. No, it's not two meters. It's one meter and 70 centimeter high.
00:33:23
Speaker
Okay. Something like that. It's as tall as a person, basically. But you also have the ears and the crest that can be very big. But the tube itself, it's just as tall as a person. And the way that it's made, I mean, I'm assuming like the head is hollow. Yes, it is.
00:33:44
Speaker
And is there any kind of shaping within the head kind of compared to the shape outside? Yes, because there is the shape outside, but you have to hammer the metal by inside to make the line goes outside. So you have the inverting design inside the head.
00:34:04
Speaker
And the head is working like a bell on the modern brass instrument, it amplifies the sound. And also the ears are also involving the sound a little bit because they are vibrating and making some kind of reverb. Interesting.
00:34:21
Speaker
And that is why also archaeologists think that why their ears are so big on the conics. Which makes sense why you then put like horns and ears on a snake. Otherwise it would be a very boring instrument I guess, because it would just be the head. But that must mean as well that every different head shape type animal thing also creates a slightly different sound.
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, but it's very minor changing in the sound, I would say, because what will be very impacting the sound on this instrument is the diameter and the length of the tube itself. But as I told earlier, the continental style of Koenig's head almost sounds the same, but the one in Scotland in Bexford
00:35:10
Speaker
is a very different head and it's also a very different sounding according to John Kenny, which is a Scottish conics player, which play both, he has a replica of Tintinac and also a replica of Deskford, and it says they are very different in sound because of the head.
00:35:27
Speaker
Well, and because the Tintinyakkuan, like I say, I can maybe just remember this tongue from the Scottish one. Because the Tintinyakkuan doesn't have anything inside the mouth, right? No, it's like an open mouth. Yeah. And the Scottish one is more closed, like a human head.
00:35:51
Speaker
I'm now really curious. I will try and find a link of, of that being played. Yeah. You can, you can have a, you have on YouTube, you just have John Kenny conics and you have, uh, him playing both of them and, and, uh, I will find the link to that and I will put it in the podcast notes so that people can listen to that. I want to listen to that now and hear what the difference is. I've always wanted to play one. I think they had some, I was at a conference somewhere and they had, I can't remember if they were carneks or if they were just horns.
00:36:21
Speaker
But the Longhorns, and I really wanted to have a go, but there was a long line of people and I had to go back to the conference. But one day, one day I will play a karax. Hey, archaeology podcast fans. Anyone that's heard me on a show has likely heard me mention coffee one or probably a thousand times.
00:36:36
Speaker
Coffee, however awesome it is, has some downsides and should be consumed in moderation. That's why we partnered with Laird Superfoods. They've got lots of stuff, but their coffee and coffee creamers have been engineered to taste better, provide functional benefits, and don't contain any refined sugars. So, are you ready to feel more energized, focused, and supported? Go to LairdSuperfood.com and add nourishing, plant-based foods to fuel you from sunrise to sunset. Use our promo code, T-BrakeTimeTravel, at checkout, and save 15% on your purchase today. You can also click the link in your show notes.
00:37:04
Speaker
Hey
Samuel's Bands and Musical Influences
00:37:05
Speaker
podcast fans, I've got to talk to you about drinking water. As an archaeologist, I've been on surveys where we had to drink three to five liters of water every day. That's 1.3 gallons, just to basically not die. Sometimes that water just doesn't hydrate you as quickly as you're using it. That's why we've partnered with Liquid Ivy. The small packets make it easy to take one with you to work, to work out, or on any adventure. I like the strawberry lemonade and lemon lime one's the best.
00:37:28
Speaker
Just put one stick of liquid ivy into 16 ounces of water and get hydrated two times faster than with just water alone. And now with our partnership you can get 20% off when you go to liquidiv.com and use the code tbreaktimetravel at checkout. That's 20% off anything you order when you shop better hydration today using promo code tbreaktimetravel at liquidiv.com.
00:37:49
Speaker
Okay, so we did already introduce you a little bit, Samuel, in the beginning of this episode in terms of your kind of metalworking background, but I thought we could maybe talk a bit more about the music side of things and also, of course, your business that you have making the Karaneks and your work as a musician.
00:38:07
Speaker
So you founded a band, I believe I saw, and I apologize, by the way, if any of this information is incorrect. But yeah, GoFennel. Yes, you can say GoFennel. And we're also part of another group, NerdGoth. So what kind of music, what was your inspiration for creating those groups?
00:38:24
Speaker
So I created these bands way before I started to recreate the conics and Garfanon is the band I created in 2016 and it's some kind of folk acoustic, pagan folk
00:38:44
Speaker
or dark folk music using modern both and ancient instruments in it. We just added the conics in it, something like one or two years ago, so it's very recent.
00:38:58
Speaker
And I don't have any album yet, recorded album with the conics in it, but I'm working on it. Excellent. And the other band, Neder, got its Kelting Punk music. And it also started way before, but I didn't create this band. It's a band I joined something like five or six years ago. And I play guitar in it. And we also added the conics on the live set a little bit.
00:39:24
Speaker
And I'm always curious because I mean I love that style of music and everything I always loved it I used to attend a lot of like medieval festivals and things and you always have these amazing bands that I guess are similar styles and just such cool music because it's yeah using these
00:39:43
Speaker
slightly different instruments to what you're used to, but it's kind of recognisable enough. But do the members of your band, I mean, were they kind of, shall we say, modern musicians and then became interested in more historic times? Or was it straight from the beginning? I mean, like you, your first experience with brass instruments was the Karanex.
00:40:03
Speaker
Now, in Gofanen, it's mostly a traditional musician of folk, and so they are very into historical music. We have two teachers in the band, also in French and Occitan, and also we have another musician that comes from a medieval band. These are people very interested in historical music.
00:40:29
Speaker
And in Nedergot, we are nine on stage, so it's very different people, but it's also people that come from both either metal music or traditional European music. And in terms of, I mean, we spoke very briefly before about the fact that when you are looking at, for example, ancient or prehistoric music, so before things were written down, before notes were written, I guess, I mean, how
00:40:59
Speaker
do you think those sounds that we now associate in the modern day, I mean, like I was just saying, I go to these medieval festivals and I hear the music and I'm like, oh yes, that was definitely what they were playing back then. But I mean, I don't know. What's the kind of earliest music that we have? Do you know, like how far back does it go? I know the Greeks during antiquities had written music.
00:41:26
Speaker
So I think that the oldest European music you can find, but yeah, I think that the Greeks once you have the aulos, it's a two, someone playing two kind of reed instruments at the same time, like two oboes. And you also have the lyre and singing and drums, I think, if I remember correctly.
00:41:52
Speaker
Okay. And would they have used the same like musical notation that we do? I don't think so. I don't know a lot about it, but I think it's very different. Yeah, that would be, that'd be really, I'm curious. But I know that there is people specialized in it. They replay the written music of ancient Greeks. Okay. Oh, see if I can find.
00:42:16
Speaker
Because yeah, that would be really, I mean, that's, I guess, the closest you can get almost to replicating past music. And your, so as you sort of mentioned, your musical work in those bands, but also by yourself is sort of focused a lot on the kind of
00:42:33
Speaker
I guess Northern, Northwest European music, kind of the traditional music and the folk music, I think. Is that correct? It depends. On Garfanon, we have influences from different parts in Europe. I sing most of the time in Occitan. Occitan is one of the regional languages of Southern France.
00:42:56
Speaker
But in France, regional languages are dying. It's like almost nobody speaks them anymore. And of course, these languages came with a culture, with dances, with music, with dressing. So we also sing traditional songs from Occitan Southern France.
00:43:15
Speaker
So that is more Mediterranean music, I would say. But we don't really play it Mediterranean. We tend to make dark music close to the heavy metal scene vibe, I would say.
00:43:32
Speaker
but using acoustic instruments. And also I sing in English and in a little bit in Swedish and in French. And yeah, I'm also very, I like a lot Scandinavian music. And in the band, we have someone playing a bass, Nicole Harper, you know, the Swedish violin with keys.
00:43:55
Speaker
It's a traditional Swedish instrument, bringing a very northern sound, I would say. We just have many different influences in Gofannon, from all over Europe. And in Nedergot, it's a little bit of the same, I would say, but it's more punk and metal.
00:44:15
Speaker
We have a punk drum and I gain guitars and we also play a traditional song from Eastern Europe and Mediterranean and Northern Irish Celtic, I would say.
00:44:30
Speaker
No, I always find it so I was trying to research the history of drums the other day, slightly unrelated. And it was I found it really interesting how the kind of earliest evidence for drums that we have come from all these different parts of the world. And even though they're the same basic instrument, it's
00:44:48
Speaker
slightly different in each part. So I'm always curious with people who work with historic music, how much international influence as well there would have been. Do you think there would have been more interaction between different musical cultures, shall we say, back in the past?
00:45:05
Speaker
I don't really know. We know for sure people still from also already in prehistoric times, people were traveling a lot and there is an instrument found in Europe. I'm thinking about the rhomb. I don't know the English name of it in French. It's rhomb.
00:45:28
Speaker
It's a piece of wood or bone flat attached to a rope. Ah, but you swing around. Yeah, you turn it and it's kind of motor sound. Yes, which is very popular in Australia, right? Yeah, it's very popular in Australia. It's used and it was also found the same instrument in a cave in Germany, something like 20,000 years BC or something like that.
00:45:54
Speaker
I mean, the first German backpacker had gone off to Australia, done his year abroad, broad packer. What are they called? We found similarities, I mean, instruments like that, a bit everywhere, like also the Jew harp traveled a lot from Asia to Europe.
00:46:17
Speaker
That's the one you have in your mouth, between your teeth and... Yes, it's in metal, it can also be in wood. Oh, which I hate trying. I have one here. It's that one. Very cool. So that was sort of found everywhere as well. Yeah, we know this instrument traveled a lot. It's found in Europe, in Asia, in Southern Asia, close to Australia also. Interesting.
00:46:46
Speaker
So yeah, so there definitely was a lot of interaction, which makes sense because it's a very international language, I guess, music, one of the few. And I happened to notice when I was looking on your Instagram, and I think it is something that would be interesting to mention, the very specifically state
00:47:04
Speaker
that you do not welcome neo-nazis, fascists or nationalists. And I remember speaking to other friends who, for example, are very heavily involved in Viking reenactment or that kind of thing. They have similar issues that there's kind of that overlap a lot of the time with those groups and that kind of time period. Do you have a big problem with these groups because of your focus?
00:47:28
Speaker
I don't have a lot, I don't know if it's because I said I won't want them on my Instagram, maybe I hope so. But yeah, it's the problem when you are speaking about European history and mostly white European history, you will attract this kind of people. And I don't want them to use my work, you know, to sweep their needs or their fantasies.
00:47:54
Speaker
So this is why I specifically say that they are not welcome. And yeah, they used to message me sometimes and scan of people and now actually I would say a bit less.
00:48:11
Speaker
They are unwelcome. But indeed, I always think that's such a shame that you have, I don't know, that indeed these parts, it's very specific parts of history and that are so, yeah, sensitive now, like you can't always be as passionate about it necessarily as you want to, because people might assume the wrong thing as well.
00:48:34
Speaker
which is, yeah, but no, but no, I was, I was, it was mainly just, I was really interested that it was so specific. I wondered if you'd had any particular problems. No, it's just, I don't want them to use my work. Yeah, no, that's fair enough. And indeed, so, so you decided to focus on, on creating the current Carnix. I've spelled it wrong here. Again, I was about to say Caranks, but no, it's the Carnix with your, your
00:48:59
Speaker
business, Obrador, Ford and Kraft, but that seems a very specific niche. What are the sort of advantages or disadvantages of that kind of specialization, would you say?
00:49:12
Speaker
Advantages that we are very few in Europe making this. I think we are something like 20 in Europe. I think something like five, four or five in France. And most of the people recreating the conics are not musicians. And I really wanted to bring this instrument into a musical, how to say, musical, yeah, context. Thanks.
00:49:39
Speaker
We are very few to do it, but that means also a lot of people, it's a bit surprising, but a lot of people want a conics.
00:49:54
Speaker
People are messaging me quite often about how to get one. So even if it's a very niche thing, I have a lot of order. So I don't see a lot of disadvantages in it. That's good.
00:50:16
Speaker
And I really enjoy making them and I specifically want to make only that for the moment, to be better at it. Because every time I make a conics, I try to make the next one a little bit better and better and better. So I'm always trying to modernize tools and kind of things like that.
00:50:37
Speaker
And are you, I mean, the customers that you have, are they kind of like museums that need replicas or are they just individuals who are interested or like, what's the range? There is
Crafting Carnyx Replicas: Challenges and Successes
00:50:48
Speaker
a bit of everything. It's, it is musicians, not musicians, just people like in history or that does not want to play or know how to play an instrument at all. Also bands, sometimes famous bands, I made the first one I made for Elevati.
00:51:07
Speaker
Also, sometimes museums, I don't had for now, I think, but I had also a few reenactment associations from the Iron Age. It's this kind of things. Yeah, wide range. That's very interesting. And actually, so do you ever have, when you're playing with, I don't know how, I guess with Corona, the COVID, maybe you haven't had as many concerts in the last couple of years, but have you played at kind of concerts
00:51:35
Speaker
with your karnix as well? Yes, yes. Yeah, with my band Ingo Fanon and in Nedergad, we played during I would say the past two years or a year and a half when the COVID started to end. Okay. And did you then have people kind of knowing what the karnix was or did you get a lot of questions about it?
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah, it brings a lot of questions from the audience. Before the show, mostly. And it depends where we play. When we play into some kind of medieval historical festival, people are a bit aware of what it is. Or like, yeah, what else? A karnix. Who doesn't? You know, the context. People mostly don't know.
00:52:23
Speaker
Oh, no, that's really fascinating. Now, I always like to ask because I think that it's really a couple of the other guests I've had on here are sort of similar to you in that they have very specific mixture of interests that they have combined into a job. And I always think it's really interesting to talk about because I imagine other people might be listening in and going, well, I
00:52:42
Speaker
I like music and I like doing this. Would you say that it was a slow start or was it something that you didn't think would actually become a job or did you always want to make it into something that you lived off?
00:52:58
Speaker
I started during the COVID and I was able to start it thanks to the COVID because I was at home with my pay every month and working in my workshop. Yeah, it started slowly and the more I did it, I tried to
00:53:19
Speaker
to make myself visible on the internet, on Facebook, on Instagram, on YouTube. So I posted a lot of videos and pictures so people can sound me. And thanks to that, I was able to have many orders
00:53:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And yeah, I mean, congratulations that you've been able to make it into something that you can make money from because that's always the dream, right? Do that. And so just as a final question, so what advice would you have then for anyone else who might be listening and thinking that they maybe want to follow a similar path in their future?
00:54:02
Speaker
I don't know, it's always very different depending on where you are, what you do at the moment, if you want to start these kind of things. I would say that you must never give up, try, even if you fail things, you have to try and try again.
00:54:26
Speaker
I did a lot of trying. I spent one year making the first prototype of the Konex and it was a lot of fails at the beginning until I found something working.
00:54:40
Speaker
Which is amazing though, especially considering that you said you didn't even really have experience in copper work. I mean, I'm amazed that you have managed to be so successful at creating these conics. If you didn't really have experience with brass instruments, you didn't have experience with working copper. I mean, that's amazing. I'm very impressed.
00:55:00
Speaker
Okay, well, I think that probably marks the end of our tea break. Probably time to get back to work. It sounds like you've got a lot of orders to fill. So I'll let you get back to it. But thank you so, so much for joining me today, Samuel. It was really great to talk to you. Yeah, I appreciate it. Nice.
00:55:17
Speaker
And if anyone who's listening wants to find out more about Samuel's work, everything that we've been talking about today, so Operate or Fortune Craft, or the Gough Fanon, or Nerda Gough, I will put the link into the show notes. I'll also try to find that video about playing the different kind of kernics and other kinds of prehistoric music as well that we've talked about today. So
00:55:38
Speaker
do check out the show notes on the podcast homepage. And yeah, I hope that everyone enjoyed our journey today and see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel. I hope that you enjoyed our journey today. If you did, make sure to like, follow, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and I'll see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel.
00:55:59
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Culturo Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.