Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Black Widow
153 Plays3 years ago
Fellow Japan-residing Marvel fan Ashley Stockdale makes his Superhero Cinephiles debut to discuss Black Widow. We've got a lot of praise for Florence Pugh and David Harbour, some criticisms about Taskmaster, and talk about how the timing of this movie could have been a lot better.
---
Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/superherocinephiles/message
Recommended
Transcript
Audible and Audiobook Offerings
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, fellow superhero cenophiles. Did you know that almost 30% of adults say they haven't read a book in the past year? Primary reason why is a lack of time. Well, Audible's here to help with the gift of found time. Thanks to Audible, you can listen to audiobooks like Marvel Comics, The Untold Story, or Slugfest inside the epic 50-year battle between Marvel and DC.
00:00:19
Speaker
Read up on the history of superheroes in comics and movies with Grant Morrison's Supergods. You can also check out Vanguard, my original superhero novel series, or try The Vrilagenda or The Adventures of Fortune McCall, both of which were written by our duly departed host emeritus, Derek Ferguson.
00:00:35
Speaker
Whatever you're looking for, Audible has thousands of titles that you can consume while commuting, exercising, cooking, or just relaxing at home. And not only audiobooks, an Audible membership also gives you access to tons of content like podcasts, theatrical performances, and exclusive Audible originals that you won't find anywhere else. To give you a taste of what you can get, Audible is partnered with this show to provide listeners with a free 30-day trial.
00:00:59
Speaker
All you have to do is go to audibletrial.com slash SuperCinemapod and with your free trial you get one free audiobook and two free Audible Originals. In fact, you get to keep those titles even if you cancel before the trial is over. So what are you waiting for? Head on over to audibletrial.com slash SuperCinemapod and start your free trial today.
00:01:37
Speaker
You know, this is the first piece of clothing I've ever bought for myself. That? No, you don't like it? Is that like an army surplus? Okay, it has a lot of pockets. But I use them all the time and I made some of my own modifications. Shut up! The point is, I've never had control over my own life before and now I do. I want to do things.
00:02:08
Speaker
I like your costume. God, I knew it. I knew you did. It's so cool, right? It's cool. Yes. And you can put so much stuff in there. You wouldn't even know. I really don't know where the Red Room is, though. I'm sorry. I know. But I think I know somebody who does. Oh, yeah? Who? We're gonna need a job.
Introduction of Hosts and Guests
00:02:34
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and I'm here today with a new guest who has been a guest twice on one of my other shows. And that's a guy I know here in Japan, and that's Ashley Stockdale. Ashley, how are you doing today? Good, how are you Perry? Doing pretty good. So I've had you on Japan on film a few times, but this is the first time we got you on this show. And so I just want to give you a few minutes to let you introduce yourself to this audience.
00:03:02
Speaker
Uh, well, yeah, I'm glad to be on this podcast. Cause this is maybe more in my, uh, my wheelhouse as it were. So yeah, I, well, I took my horse dewormer, so I'm ready to go. Uh, yeah, well, I've been in Japan for about 20 years as an English teacher. Uh, I'm kind of a, I wouldn't say lifelong Marvel fan, but a very big Marvel fan from way back in the mid eighties.
00:03:30
Speaker
uh my first real of course i had all the you know spider-man and that kind of thing when i was growing up with the the old psychedelic 70s spider-man with the really poor animation but the awesome theme song and then of course the incredible hulk tv series was a big thing when i was a kid and then i had a passing interest in all of that stuff but it was maybe in junior high that it really took hold and i uh the
00:03:55
Speaker
big gateway drug for me was the first Secret Wars series. Oh, okay. Which I know hasn't aged well, but that splash page when I opened that up and saw all the heroes standing on the Beyonders little ship there. And that was my first kind of real introduction to the X-Men. And then after that, me and two buddies decided to start collecting comics, which was tough in our hometown because we lived very far north.
00:04:24
Speaker
I'm from Whitehorse, Yukon in Canada, very far north. No comic shops about at that time. Anyway, just newsstand stuff with the spinner rack. Yeah. I remember those Archie comics. So really hard to get a full run, but in junior high, uh, one of our classmates, this girl, she said, Hey, I have some comics you guys can have. So we're like, Oh, okay, cool. Let's come over to your house and take a look.
00:04:51
Speaker
And literally, she gave us 1000 comic books. Holy crap. So we spent a couple of days carting them to my basement, and then we spread them all out in different piles by title. And then we took turns choosing titles. And for the next five or six years, we collected our various, you know, titles that we had chosen, and then occasionally would big swap big runs of comics and
Marvel Comics and Comic-Con Memories
00:05:18
Speaker
stuff like that. So
00:05:20
Speaker
Maybe a big highlight of my comic book early days was going to the San Diego Comic Con way back in 85. Before it was the kind of mass media nightmare that it is today. Yeah, I actually went to San Diego. It was about four years ago now. Yeah, 2017 I went and
00:05:43
Speaker
That was the first time I'd ever been to that convention. And it's, cause I've been to Chicago Comic Con before. I used to go every year when I was living out there, but San Diego is like a whole different world. It's like the whole downtown area becomes nerd central for three days. It's insane.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah. See, when I was there, it was literally like one, maybe two rooms of convention center with like just folding tables and stacks of long boxes. And, you know, you could smell the sweat on all the artists and the writers. My prized possession from that though, is an autographed copy of God Loves Man Kills signed by Chris Claremont. Oh, that's awesome. I have a graphic novel of that. And I got Thor.
00:06:29
Speaker
337, I think. First appearance of Beta Ray Bill. Oh, OK, nice. Signed by Walt Simonson. You know, he might be he might be appearing in the next Thor movie. Beta Ray Bill. Yeah, that's the that's the rumor because they had his. Well, they're going to do they had a statue outside the the the Grandmaster's Palace in the last year. Yeah, right. I wonder if they're going to lean hard into that as guardians of the galaxy type stuff. They might be. I don't know. It's it's like a YTT. So, you know, you don't know what he's going to do.
00:06:59
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's really great that he's on there. Yeah, yeah.
Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussions
00:07:03
Speaker
I mean, I enjoyed the first two Thor movies, don't get me wrong, but Thor Ragnarok was just like some next level stuff. Who directed the second Thor movie? Second one was Alan something. I can't remember his last name. He was a director on Game of Thrones. I'm blanking on his name, but yeah, he had such a bad experience with the fan reaction to that that he like almost dropped out of directing entirely.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, well, they're being very negative about it. But yeah, I'm doing an MCU rewatch currently. I haven't really gone back to some of them for a really long time. Probably like First Avenger and stuff like that. I hadn't seen in about 10 years.
00:07:45
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, yeah, the dark world is not the best Marvel movie, but it's still a pretty good movie. Yeah, yeah. I mean, of the MCU, the only one that I actually dislike is Iron Man 3. Yeah, I know. Even that, I think, has some redeeming qualities. It does. It does have some redeeming qualities. I do like the
00:08:05
Speaker
I do like that Rhodey got a lot more to do in that. And I do like some of the lethal weapon type stuff with him and Tony in that. I thought that stuff was really well done. It does have some good moments. I'm not gonna say it's completely irredeemable. And now that they're recounting the whole Mandarin thing, that makes it a little bit easier to swallow.
00:08:23
Speaker
Yes, well, I was gonna say, what was the real Mandarin coming that you can forget about your- Yeah, which actually comes out today, the day- Ben Kingsley? Ben Kingsley, yeah. And yeah, the Shang-Chi comes out today, the day that we're recording this. What's your plan for that? I know you've been saying recently, like, you can't get out of the house, but that's not getting a streaming release. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I gotta talk to my wife, see if she'll let me go see it on my own.
00:08:52
Speaker
Cause if she'll let me go see it on my own, then I'll probably go see it maybe today. Maybe I'll wait on, I got friends coming in from out of town tomorrow. So, so maybe I'll wait until after they leave then go see it next week then. So we'll see if she's not, because with black widow, I knew she wanted to see that. So we, you know, we watched it here and suicide squad was already going to be on HBO max for free anyway. So we didn't have to worry about paying anything extra. So, so with this, I'm going to see how much she wants to see it because, um,
00:09:21
Speaker
I don't think she's that invested in it. Like we've seen a few of the trailers. She didn't seem like that, you know, keen on it too much. Like she, she's, she's interested in, um, let there be carnage and she's interested in no way home, but Shang-Chi Eternals, she just kind of, Oh, that looks interesting, but she's not really too grabbed by either one. I don't think. Well, it'll be interesting to see what happens because those two, like you mentioned, like Shang-Chi and the Eternals are both very much like,
00:09:47
Speaker
I don't know, C level titles, even I would say. Yeah. The way that they said Iron Man was a B hero before the Avengers MCU all kicked off. I would put those guys even further down. Oh, definitely. I'd say they're probably the same level as Guardians of the Galaxy and that man. Yeah. And and, you know, those both killed. But, you know, every time they have one of these things where
00:10:10
Speaker
You know, I remember back when Guardians of the Galaxy and the lead up to that movie, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting, you know, an article titled like 10 reasons why Guardians of the Galaxy will be Marvel's first big failure. Yeah. Well, they just captured the right cast and the right, you know, story, the right director. All of that was just lightning in a bottle. Yeah. And we'll be interested to see. Especially because they got a good cast with Shang-Chi, especially like. Yeah. I don't know if you've seen Kim's convenience at all.
00:10:39
Speaker
I have, I watched the first season and then I haven't really gone back to it recently because only so many hours in a day. I watched the first season and I think I watched like maybe half the first season a while back. I'm like, oh, that's okay. And then several months ago, I was looking for something to watch and stumbled upon it again. I'm like, oh, let me finish this. I never, and yeah, I really got into it. It gets really better after the first season.
00:11:07
Speaker
I wonder, like what's, do you know what the model is then? Like for Shang-Chi, they're doing 45 days in the theaters and then straight to Disney Plus or to Premium Access? Oh, I have no idea. I'm not really sure at all. Cause I wasn't really sure. They're talking about this, you know, being an experiment of how they're going to do the release models now. And Shumu Liu getting kind of his panties in a bunch of... Yeah, I think, I think that was about just more the fact that it was,
00:11:36
Speaker
Um, yeah, I think the guy was, I think, yeah, it was some Disney executive who said this is an experiment. I think he was talking about the fact that a it's, you know, a superhero movie with, uh, an Asian lead. And I think B he was also talking about in this COVID era. So I don't know if they're doing a tip. I think they're trying to go back to the. Previous release format. I'm not sure we're going to have to, I have to look more into it though.
00:12:01
Speaker
Because 45 days, I mean, doesn't really on paper seem like a long time to wait if it's going to just go straight to Disney Plus after that. But I don't know. I mean, 45 days is probably enough time to make your money, I suppose. But you're also going to have the people who don't care enough to go to the cinema. Right.
Impact of the Pandemic on Movie Watching
00:12:20
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Whereas I do. I mean, I probably won't see Shang-Chi today just because at
00:12:27
Speaker
tempara, the 10th day, one of the theaters here in Kagoshima, the 10th day is a cheap day. Oh, so that happens to be next Friday. So I think I'll give it a week. Oh, I should. I didn't know that. I hundred yen instead of 1900. I didn't know that. Maybe maybe I'll just wait until next week, then. Normally I do late shows, but the cinemas are all closing by eight o'clock right now. So.
00:12:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that was one of the things we were worried about because as we all know, the coronavirus comes out at night more. Yeah. Yeah, because we're looking for something to do with when my friends come into town, but we can't go to like any bars or karaoke or anything like that, even. Yeah.
00:13:07
Speaker
Anyway, so we were talking a little bit off the air. Anything you've been you've been watching lately, superhero wise or or read? Well, I said I watched the Suicide Squad and then I've been watching, of course, what's happening on Disney Plus. I watched the most recent episode of What If. Yeah, I just saw that last night myself.
00:13:26
Speaker
not sure what I'm thinking about what if like I like some of them I don't really not really enthused about others I really really like the Captain Carter episodes and maybe that was because it was the first time I'd really seen that particular animation style or because I had kind of missed Haley Atwell or that kind of thing and then the Black Panther one I
00:13:47
Speaker
I wasn't really super enthused about, although it had some good moments. Yeah, I did like the Fanno stuff in that one. Yeah, me too. But yeah, I felt kind of the same thing. I like Captain Carter, even though it was basically just more or less a retelling of First Avenger.
00:14:04
Speaker
Um, the Black Panther, the T'Challa stuff, it was, it was okay, but there were definitely some parts where I was just kind of like going in and out. And then I, I was pretty interested in the, um, uh, the third episode with, you know, what if the Avengers hadn't assembled type. Yeah. That one I thought was pretty interesting. And then the last, then yesterday's, um, again, that was also kind of like the, the T'Challa one where it didn't really grab me that much. Yeah.
00:14:29
Speaker
But that's going to have some interesting concepts. But yeah, I don't know if you've ever if you ever read the what if comic back in the day. I did read a lot of them. They probably may be the first series, I guess. I couldn't remember a single issue to tell you the truth. But yeah, that was the thing. I joined the Fantastic Four. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The what if comic was really it was kind of the same thing as the series. Actually, it was there are some issues that were really good and there are some they're just kind of like
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah. All right. That was, that was okay. Well, the thing is with the, what if stuff they've kind of, it's kind of dropped off because they have all this multi, multiverse stuff now. So they don't need to use a what if comic. Yeah. And just say, Hey, the.
00:15:11
Speaker
X men are young and they're back in this timeline. Yeah, yeah. Wolverine is dead, but not really. So what do you think of the Suicide Squad that we did an episode about that? Yeah, I listened to it. I really enjoyed it. Certain things I, you know, were
00:15:30
Speaker
surprising to me. They had really, really promoted the first squad there, and then they just died. Yeah, yeah. I kind of like that. I like that bait and switch. I liked it too. I was hoping for a little more with Flula Borg.
Black Widow Release and Controversies
00:15:46
Speaker
Because I think he's quite funny, that guy. Oh, okay. And I've heard some speculation that TDK is not really dead. Yeah, there was something he recently, James Gunn recently made a post about that on Twitter or something about that.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, saying that if you if you watch the movie, it just says that he was in critical condition. He wasn't necessarily dead. Yeah. And I thought the villain was fantastic. Like, yeah, it was really, really good, really gross and, you know, really cute and gross at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And I really the character that I really, really liked the most in that was Ratcatcher, too. She was good. She was really good. I like that. I was really impressed by her, too.
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen her in anything before this. No, I think she's she Portuguese. Something like that. Yeah, I think she and then she has had a career in Portugal, but I think this is our big American debut. Oh, OK, I see. And of course, I mean, Idris Elba is, you know, he's good in everything. Yeah. Well, like, well, yeah, like the guest we had on, like Steele said, he watched Idris Elba read the phone book and I'm inclined to agree. Yes. Yeah.
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think he would be he's fantastic in anything. I'm down for him to be the next James Bond if they want. That'd be interesting, too. I'm I'm kind of hoping for Henry Cavill. Yeah, because I think he would be a much better bond than he would be a Superman anyway. Right. He's got to slim down a bit, I think, doesn't he lose some of that muscle? Maybe I mean, well, I mean, you think about if he's more of a modern James Bond, I think it really depends on what. But if I remember watching
00:17:21
Speaker
the man from uncle movie he was in several years ago. And yeah, I've been meaning to watch it. It's not really that good, but it's worth it just to see him in it because he's just, he's just, you know, charming as hell. And you watch that movie and you can easily see him playing Bond. And I don't know if I'll be able to forget that army hammer is accountable now or that whatever's going on with him.
00:17:43
Speaker
He's had some, you know, I don't know what they're calling it, when he gets outed for his bad behavior and then becomes persona non grata, something about cannibalism was in that. Look it up later. Okay, I'll take a look at that. Okay, anyway, today we're talking about the latest MCU movie and that is not the latest now that Shang-Chi's come out, but
00:18:07
Speaker
the most recent one as of this recording and that's Black Widow which you know is set between Civil War and Infinity War. So this movie actually had a tough time getting made because you know back when after the Avengers movie came out
00:18:27
Speaker
you know, there was all this buzz about Scarlett Johansson being in a Black Widow movie, but one of the things was at that time, Ike Perlmutter was still controlling everything with Marvel. So he had control over Marvel Studios and all that. And for anyone who doesn't know, Ike Perlmutter has a reputation for being a bit of a racist and a bit of a misogynist. And he felt that a woman could not carry a superhero movie. Right.
00:18:56
Speaker
And so it was pretty Wonder Woman and everything. This was pretty Wonder Woman. Yeah. And he was one of the reasons why Captain Marvel took so long to get to get made as well, because originally the Kevin Feige had wanted I think Joss Whedon as well wanted Captain Marvel to actually premiere in Age of Ultron. OK. And she would have first appeared in that. But then that all got pushed back because of Feige or not because of Feige because of Perlmutter. And then eventually
00:19:21
Speaker
Perlmutter, Feige had gotten fed up dealing with him and he threatened to quit. And that's when Disney separated Marvel Studios out from Marvel Entertainment. And then as soon as that happened, they were able to, and all of a sudden all the actors wanted to come back because for a while there, like Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, a lot of them were saying like, oh, I don't know if I'll keep doing Marvel stuff. But then after that, they're all like, oh yeah, we'll stay. So that really kind of changed the game. And then they were able to do Captain Marvel. They were able to push ahead
00:19:51
Speaker
eventually Black Widow and now Eternals and Shang-Chi and all that, Black Panther as well and all that kind of stuff. But it's made the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. non-canon?
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah, that was one of the casualties of that because Marvel Television was still part of Marvel Studios, or was still part of Marvel Entertainment. So you can see the ship because the Netflix shows as well were originally supposed to be all part of the MCU as well. And you notice there's a lot of references to the Avengers movie in the first season of Daredevil. But after that, they don't really talk about it a whole lot.
00:20:28
Speaker
And I think it was the last season of Agents of SHIELD kind of established that the timelines had diverged or something at some point. Right. Yeah. Well, that's what they can do now, right? With all this multiverse stuff, they can just smash it together whenever they want. Like they did a few years ago with the whole
00:20:45
Speaker
battle world scenario or whatever happened in Marvel comics. And like they did on CW with all their shows with Crisis. Right. That's why Miles Morales is suddenly in the 616. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So anyway, what were your thoughts watching Black Widow after, you know, waiting all this time and even after seeing her death? Well, I don't know. I mean, maybe the first thing we should mention is the elephant in the red room. Yeah. Which is the big, the lawsuit.
00:21:13
Speaker
Oh, I had only read like a few headlines about that. So I'm not really up to speed on the loss. Well, I mean, just from what I understand is that Scarlett Johansson was upset that her contract had been broken and she felt like she could have made a lot more money if they'd gone straight to the theatrical release. So I don't know if they're gonna, if anything will change based on what happens with Shang-Chi, you know, if Shang-Chi makes a billion dollars in 45 days, maybe she's got a point.
00:21:42
Speaker
And I think I mean, I think it was mishandled on both sides. I think her coming publicly with a lawsuit was probably a bad idea. And then Disney coming back and saying, oh, you're just disregarding the pandemic and how cold and heartless you are. You want people to die. That's kind of, you know, a bit much. Yeah. But I feel like Scarlett Johansson is kind of burning a lot of bridges.
00:22:06
Speaker
Uh, cause Disney eventually is going to own everything. But maybe she doesn't need to work anymore. Who knows? Yeah. And they also Disney came out and out at her salary and stuff like that. And they're, you know.
00:22:19
Speaker
actually quoting numbers, which is rare for them. We gave her 20 million and she's just wanting more on that, which makes people not want to side with her because that's a lot of money. I mean, just based on what you've said, I wonder how much of her claim actually has merit because it's not like the Suicide Squad where it was just released direct to streaming with no additional purchase.
00:22:44
Speaker
you know you had to pay 30 bucks to get the premier access to watch black yeah i think it's just because it dropped off so quick you know and just
00:22:52
Speaker
And then I think it's made, I was reading a numbers today, it's about 475 million all told, which is they're making their money back, but it's still considered to be one of the least performing Marvel movies. But you gotta take into account everything that's going on right now. But do you think if this movie had come out right after civil war, do you think it would have made a billion dollars?
00:23:17
Speaker
I don't know if it would have made a billion, but I think it definitely would have done even disregarding the pandemic. Like, let's say this came out in the perfect environment where we weren't dealing with the pandemic. I still think it would have done better if it had come out after Civil War than if it had come out after Endgame. I think releasing a flashback movie after the character has already died. I think that, you know, because at least with Captain Marvel,
00:23:43
Speaker
or with Captain America even, you know that the character is gonna be coming back, right? So you know that something's gonna happen to them at the end of that movie or something, but you know that they're still gonna be coming back in a later movie. So you wanna watch those movies for the context. I think with Black Widow, a lot of people probably felt that, well, maybe I can skip this one. Maybe I can wait until it comes out on screaming or DVD or whatever, because of the fact that
00:24:11
Speaker
Nothing in this movie is needed to understand what's going to happen going forward in the MCU. Sure. Do you think they would have put it straight out after Civil War or after Dr. Strange or Guardians 2 or Spider-Man Homecoming? I mean, at some point in that area between Civil War and Infinity War, I think would have been their best bet. I think that's what it would have been. Yeah, to me, like if they put it out right after Civil War, I think it would have been a little bit too samey.
00:24:38
Speaker
You know, because it has kind of a similar tone in many ways. Yeah. So I think if they had put it out after Doctor Strange or Guardians 2, those were kind of weird enough or different enough that they could go back to the espionage type, you know. Yeah. I think you're right. I think it would have worked better if they had released it as kind of like a prequel to Infinity War, if it come out like a year before that or something.
00:25:04
Speaker
Because it really plays a lot in the at least for I think for the first, say, 45 minutes to an hour, it plays really like a born identity movie. It does. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it has that kind of dark tone. It's not until Nat and Yelena start to really banter back and forth that it really becomes a marvel movie. Yeah, I think that's a good point. So anyway, what did you think of the movie overall?
00:25:31
Speaker
Um, overall it was good I've seen it twice I just watched it again. Yesterday or this week preparing kind of stop and start and taking notes and stuff and I, it's kind of different experience I saw it the first time in the theater and then the second time on Disney Plus, and then
00:25:49
Speaker
the first time I had very different impressions about certain things. Like I was convinced when I watched the first part, I'm kind of jumping to the end, but I was convinced that the crashing scene in the end was much, much longer than it was. And then when I watched it this time, I was like, oh, that's not that long. Yeah. Yeah. I've had that feeling with a few different times going back and rewatching movies. It's the same thing though. Like for me, it's when,
00:26:17
Speaker
You know, when you go on a long drive somewhere and you're going there the first time, it takes a really long time and all the scenery is new. And then on the return drive, it takes seemingly much less time because your brain has already processed all those things. So they're going more quickly through it. That was maybe my experience with it. I liked it overall, but I kind of, I'm still kind of debating where I would put it in a, like a ranking of,
00:26:44
Speaker
certain things, you know, in the ranking of the MCU movies, because I don't think it's anywhere close to Civil War, for example. Oh, no, definitely not. When I put Civil War, I would put that at the top of my list right now, based on my rewatching of the MCU, but Endgame might jump up back to the top once I get to the end. Civil War used to definitely... Oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:27:08
Speaker
No, it was definitely much better than, you know, Iron Man two or three or the Dark World or those kind of things. So I'd say it's a mid tier. I'm pretty much the same. Like I used to have Civil War at the top of my list, but on rewatches, it's it's kind of falling down the list a little bit. It's not as interesting on rewatches as it was the first time I found it.
00:27:29
Speaker
um but but it is still tour i think it's probably still like in the top 10 maybe at least yeah but yeah i i agree this would definitely be a mid-tier movie um yeah better i i'd break it above iron man too and thor in the dark world and all that um probably somewhere below ant man or something along those lines like
00:27:49
Speaker
Yeah, see, I would have more fun with Ant-Man than this one too. Same here. Yeah. Um, but I think it's also, I mean, some of it for me, honestly, I mean, not to make people mad or anything, but Scarlett Johansson is not my favorite. Oh yeah. You know, like there's just, there's something about her delivery sometimes that just, and I don't know a part of it is a holdover. I think for me, because the first time I really remember seeing her was way back in ghost world. Oh yeah. Yeah.
00:28:18
Speaker
and she was the disaffected teenager so she had that kind of teenager like deadpan delivery and it's kind of stuck with her in a way yeah not as bad as Keanu Reeves you know but still there's something about her that sometimes annoys me when I'm watching so and I think that
00:28:39
Speaker
In this movie, the supporting cast was very, very good. Yes, yeah. It kind of reminded me of Black Panther in that way, in that the supporting cast was far more interesting to me than the central character.
00:28:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think I mean, I think this was really Yelena's movie. I think so, too. And I think that's a big part of I think if not for Yelena, this movie would not have been made like a big part of this movie is setting up Yelena for for kind of like, you know, taking the Black Widow mantle going forward.
00:29:11
Speaker
Well, see, that's another thing I had with my issues about the release date. You know, people were complaining when the reviews were first coming out and saying, oh, it's been far too long. We've been waiting too long for this. But if we hadn't waited, neither Florence Pugh nor David Harbour would have been in this movie. That's a good point, too.
00:29:29
Speaker
You know, because David Harbour's star was not where it was. He was not Hopper from Stranger Things. He was not Elboy yet. Well, I don't think anybody cares about the fact that he was Elboy. But, you know, then Florence Pugh was not on the radar at all yet. Yeah. You know.
00:29:48
Speaker
she might have even just been starting out when this, if this movie had come out in 2016 or whatever. So, and she like, I don't know, she just stole all of the attention, I thought. Yeah, her and David Harbour were definitely the stars of the show, I felt. Yeah. Her, like, just her relationship and just like her character, it was because
00:30:13
Speaker
Natasha doesn't really have much of a character arc in this movie. There is one, but it's kind of hard to see because it feels like it's stuff that she's already been through. It's kind of like a repeat of her arc from Iron Man 2 to Age of Ultron.
00:30:31
Speaker
Right. Well, see, that's kind of why I was watched, decided to do a rewatch after we decided to set this up, is I really wanted to look at Black Widow's character development throughout the whole series, you know, through the whole MCU, starting with the Iron Man 2, where she was basically eye candy. Right. Yeah. You know, there was a lot. If you really go back and look at all the shots, there's so much ass in those movies. Yeah. Like, and her hair in the last fight.
00:31:02
Speaker
all the ringlets and that I didn't like her hair in that movie though I thought that was a really cool look though and then you know she goes through and she starts to develop a bit more character we see a lot more of her relationship with Clint which is good
00:31:17
Speaker
uh we get the red and the ledger ideas um do you i have a question do you think that when they made the avengers they had in mind they were going to use the drake offs daughter thing in this oh no i think that was just um
00:31:33
Speaker
I think that may have been something I'm not as familiar with Black Widow's history, but I think that was a holdover from the comics and they just threw it in there as a way to, you know, have some reference to stuff that happened or in the comics. Yeah. Because they'll do a lot of that in in the MCU. They'll throw in these little things here and there. And then and and something that, you know, when we had Adam on the show the first time, then
00:31:59
Speaker
And he knows some people who are been doing stuff at Marvel. And one of the things he said is that they don't really, they make it look like they've got a set plan for everything, but they really don't. Yeah, I heard that episode. I totally agreed with him on that.
00:32:15
Speaker
they must have a whole team of people who are like looking for little easter egg continuity things like oh remember this put this in there change this guy's name to that i think that's something that they do i think that's something that marvel is able to do really well and that was a weakness with the when you compare it to the fox x-men films is that with when the mcu does something like this and they're gonna
00:32:37
Speaker
revisit something that they've done in the past or they've touched on in the past, they go back and they rewatch those movies to make sure that everything fits together. And the X-Men movies, they never did that. So you have the X-Men movies is like a new movie every time. Exactly. Yeah. Like, I mean, I remember when First Class came out and
00:32:59
Speaker
nobody knew if it was a reboot or if it was a prequel or what, because you had some producers were saying, oh, it's a reboot. We're rebooting the whole thing. And then some producers were saying, no, it's not a reboot. It's a prequel. Right. And you can definitely see that when you look at the movie and you realize, and that's even before they had started messing with the timeline in Days of Future Past. But then you go back and you look at first class and you look at X-Men Origins and The Last Stand and you realize a lot of stuff doesn't fit together here.
00:33:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, going back to the Widow, Widow's character and, you know, the whole, her development, I mean, she, for a lot of it, she was just the token female. I think she gets the, some of her best stuff in the Winter Soldier and in Civil War, when she's doing the kind of the
00:33:53
Speaker
I would call it almost like the secret Avengers team with cap and Falcon and that kind of stuff. Yeah. They're more a counter terrorism unit, you know, that was actually one of the.
00:34:04
Speaker
One of the things that I wish they would do is they do like something I wish we had gotten to see a little bit of that secret Avengers team something something that show what's going on with the Avengers in that time between. And I was hoping we'd see maybe some hints of that here, but we don't really get enough of it to really kind of scratch that itch I felt.
00:34:25
Speaker
in this movie. Yeah well that's I mean it's the unfortunate thing I was thinking about that today like all the things that I would like to see but like there's no way we can see everything we want to see Perry. Yeah yeah that's true but you know I mean with what I think it would be cool is if they did something like uh DC is doing with um
00:34:45
Speaker
with their digital comics is they've got, you know, they got the Batman 89 comic now. They got the Superman 78. So it would be kind of cool if they did like some MCU comics that were set in these in between times. Yeah. Yeah. I'd really like to see that kind of. And I think that would also be a good way to bring in some of these other, um, uh, bring it, bringing some people from the movies into the comic books. Sure. Sure.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, then, I mean, that kind of stuff was good with her with that secret avenger stuff, but I really, I hate the banner, her relationship like that just doesn't never liked her in the Hulk. Yeah. We talked about that.
00:35:24
Speaker
Yeah, we talked about that when we covered Age of Ultron, Derek's last episode. And that was something, you know, we had kind of felt too that it just, it didn't really, I mean, we weren't, we didn't hate it as much as, you know, some people on the internet did, but also it just, it felt kind of tacked on. Like, well, she's the only, he's the only one that she could really be in a relationship with.
00:35:45
Speaker
Well, I actually, I just listened to your Age of Ultron episode yesterday. And then the one good thing that came out of that whole relationship was Derek's joke. I was laughing and laughing and laughing about the Hulk smash. I got to, I got to go relisten that episode again. Yeah, that was really good. So yeah. And so that kind of stuff, like I, I didn't really think it was really necessary for her. And then.
00:36:14
Speaker
Yeah, I don't, I can't, like I say, it's partly her, you know, honestly, but I don't know if they had cast another actor, if it would make a difference. Right. I've also never been a huge fan of Jeremy Renner's casting as Hawkeye. Oh, okay. But I think the character development has been pretty good overall. I just don't really, he's not my comic book image of Clint Bart.
00:36:40
Speaker
Back when I first heard of him, because I had only seen him in the Hurt Locker at that point, and I thought his performance in Hurt Locker, I thought Lent had a lot of Hawkeye type qualities. And I like him as Hawkeye. I think a lot of people
00:37:00
Speaker
I don't know, I think he gets unfairly maligned a lot by a lot of people. And I think there's a lot more to his character, but I think people were just so turned off by how small the presence he had in the first Avengers movie that they just never really kind of were willing to give him a chance after that.
00:37:17
Speaker
Right. They never forgave that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I'd like to see more. Like I say, with the Secret Avengers kind of stuff, like he would be an excellent asset on that team. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just Falcon, Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, that kind of thing as like a counter-terrorism type unit. Yeah. Yeah. Although, you know, who knows? Because one of the things that the Hawkeye TV series is going to be doing is it's going to be introducing the Kate Bishop version. So who even knows how much longer Jeremy Renner is going to actually be Hawkeye?
00:37:46
Speaker
Right. Well, yeah, he's got his own issues, doesn't he? Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, I'm really I'm very hopeful for the Hawkeye series. But I kind of I have in my mind, because Kate Bishop is such a kind of a fresh character. She was about 10 years old now. More than that, I think something but something along well, starting with the Young Avengers. Yeah, yeah. And then
00:38:12
Speaker
I don't even remember how the young Avengers team came about where the Avengers dead. So it was it was during a brief period after the the Avengers disassembled before the the new Avengers. Yeah. Right. Right. So it was it was in 2005. That was when. Right. OK. Wow. 2005 already. Yeah. Good grief.
00:38:31
Speaker
she's kind of developed over the years into like a very particular type of character in my mind so I kind of liken it to you know reading the Harry Potter books and then having my image of what they should be like and then a movie coming out very quickly after that and there'll be a period of adjustment where I have to adapt to how uh what's her name who's the actress I think it's
00:38:56
Speaker
Uh, Haley Stanfield. Yeah. Anyway, she, the way she portrays it'll be very, it'll kind of catch me or her or make me annoyed right away. Yeah. And I wonder where it's going to lead. I mean, I kind of, I'm hoping to see a, uh, a young Avengers team or. I think they're building to young Avengers because they've got, they've got Kate appearing in there. They've already introduced, um, uh, Isaiah Bradley and Falcon and Winter Soldier.
00:39:25
Speaker
and they introduced the whole thing with Josiah. No, Isaiah Bradley was the first Captain America, and then Elijah is his grandson.
Future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe
00:39:34
Speaker
Then we're gonna get Hulkling out of Secret Invasion or something? We might, I'm not sure, I haven't heard about that. He's a Skrull, isn't he? He's part Skrull, part Kree, he's the son of Captain Mar-Vell and some Skrull woman, I can't remember who she is. Yeah, and somehow maybe Wanda's kids will actually be real?
00:39:55
Speaker
Right, that that too, because they've introduced Tommy and Billy now. And then also they're going to have they've got Cassie Lang, too. They recast her for Quantimania. Yeah. Well, see, I kind of wonder if they aren't going to push Miss Marvel into that group as well. I think that was something I was also thinking as well. They might they might push her into the Young Avengers, too.
00:40:19
Speaker
So it'll be kind of a young Avengers champions type model. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, that's kind of what it seems like they're heading towards. And of course they still got Miles Morales head exists somewhere in this, in this universe because, um, they had a Donald Glover played his uncle in far from homecoming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much like it's unreal. Yeah.
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah. They can go forever, honestly. Oh, yeah. As long as people keep buying tickets. One thing I think is then they may have to start cutting back the budgets a little bit. But well, I mean, who knows? Because Disney's got more money than God. So true. True. Anyway, I did like I want to mention a few other things about about Florence Pugh. One of my favorite scenes in this movie was was her vest. That little interaction. It's cool, right? I know you like it.
00:41:13
Speaker
Well, she's that in that moment, I mean, it's kind of it's played as a joke. But like, there's a very deep kind of heartbreaking thing to it as well, where that's the first piece of clothing she's ever bought herself. Exactly. Yeah. You know, it's the first time she's ever been free or had any kind of mind to do anything on her own.
00:41:35
Speaker
I kind of wondered that watching yesterday because I watched the post-credits sequence and then she was wearing you know a very like a very plaid kind of outfit that was quite bright and I don't know I'm not a fashion guy so I don't know if that's fashionable or it was kind of played as this is what somebody would buy if they had never really bought their own clothes. That's a good point.
00:42:00
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, Florence Pugh's emotional range in this movie just blows everybody out of the water. Yeah. I don't think I'd ever seen her in anything before this because I was just looking. Well, I watched her in, I hadn't seen Midsummer yet, but it's coming to a Netflix next week, I believe. Okay. I actually have Midsummer, but I haven't watched it yet. Yeah. I'm kind of, I hear it's very intense. That's what I've heard too. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:25
Speaker
And then I had seen her just a little while ago in the WWE movie fighting with my family. Okay. Where she plays the pro wrestler page, who was kind of a big female WWE star in maybe a few years ago and has had some
00:42:45
Speaker
She's had some health problems and some scandal issues recently, but it's based on a true story of a wrestling family in the UK, and then kind of tracing Page's journey into the big show at the WWE. Nick Frost plays her father in the movie. And Lena Headley, Headley? Headley, I think it's Headley. Yeah, she plays the mother.
00:43:09
Speaker
And they're kind of a wrestling family that has their own small promotion in the UK before she makes the big show. And so that kind of movie that gave that showed her physicality, because I'm pretty sure she did a lot of the wrestling stuff herself in that movie. But I'm surprised. But one of the things that was interesting to me when I was watching her and Scarlett together on screen is that I thought she was very short. Oh, yeah.
00:43:36
Speaker
I think she's the same height or taller than Scarlett Johansson. I wonder if they did that on purpose because that's kind of the thing with Tom Cruise because he's actually really short in real life and so they always kind of film it so he looks like he's the same height or taller.
00:43:55
Speaker
I think it may also be like to do with body type as well, because one thing about Florence Pugh is that she is not the kind of skinny supermodel type. Right. You know, she looks fit and strong and, you know, like she can kind of throw a punch and, you know, she looks tough. Yeah. Yeah. So.
00:44:15
Speaker
Oh, yeah. All those emotional moments with her and just the look she was giving through the whole movie. You know, the first confrontation where she meets Nat in the apartment in Budapest and then she sees Nat take off her shirt and she's got the bruises on her back and you can see her face kind of drop. The dinner table sequence. Dinner table sequence is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And just end the scene with her and
00:44:43
Speaker
and David Harbour and Alexei in the room too. And that was also a really great scene too. Yeah. And those things are so, I mean, they're so short, but just all it takes is one little look. Right. You know, I just, I really loved Florence Pughs. She's just so, the character Yelena is just so blunt and sarcastic. That was actually something I was going to ask you is, are you familiar at all with her character from the comics?
00:45:13
Speaker
and not at all. Okay. So I thought she was, it was definitely interesting because I don't, I've read a few things with her in the comics, but she had never really impressed me too much. She was just, just kind of like an evil black widow basically is just how she's always been. And Florence Pugh really brought a lot more depth to her character than I felt she ever really had in the car. I don't know. I haven't read her, her earliest appearances. So I, I, when this movie came out, they had a black widow sale on comicsology. So I bought those books now. I just haven't gotten around to them yet.
00:45:44
Speaker
Yeah, honestly, I mean, I, I would say I haven't read a whole heck of a lot of black widow comics. You know, I read the Wade Samney. That was great. Yeah. I just, I just reread that recently. And that's mostly because I really liked that creative team. Yeah. Their, their daredevil was, was amazing. Yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
Didn't they do the Hawkeye series too? No, that was, that was David. David Aja, yeah. All right, right, right, right. And then Aja was a little bit similar. Yeah, they both, both Aja and Sam D had that more kind of minimalist art style. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Sam D is a bit more kinetic though than Aja style. Right. Like Aja is much more, much more like pop art, I guess I'd classify it more as. Yeah.
00:46:33
Speaker
But yeah, that was another good one too. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think Aja also did Iron Fist with Fraction and Brew Baker. Ah, yes. Yeah. Anyway, David Harbor too, you know, he was also someone who, like I watched the first season of Stranger Things, but I don't know, Stranger Things just never really grabbed me the way like it grabbed the rest of the world. Even my wife, like she's obsessed with it. She keeps checking Netflix like every day to see what the new season's up.
00:47:03
Speaker
Um, so I really liked it. I watched all three seasons. Yeah. I gotta go through and I gotta rewatch the first season and then, you know, continue on and watch. They're very different. They get very weird. Like I would say the third season and the first season are totally different show. Yeah. Honestly. So, um, so he really impressed me, uh, in this too.
Character Performances in Black Widow
00:47:22
Speaker
Uh, just like,
00:47:24
Speaker
I thought the Red Guardian thing, I thought like when they had him in the suit in the trailer, I thought that was just going to be like a joke thing. I didn't expect it to be such a big part of his character in this movie. Right. Yeah. Well, I think that there was a funny bit that somebody said. I don't know who said it first, but at the end of season three of Stranger Things,
00:47:47
Speaker
David or Harbor's character, Sheriff Hopper ends up getting captured by the Russians. Oh, really? Some people are saying that's how he became the Red Guardian. So, yeah, I mean, I thought the Red Guardian stuff was really good. I I was kind of impressed with his whole just his the style that he did it in because he's such a I mean, he's one of those lovable bear characters, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's very
00:48:17
Speaker
can't even think of the word. Like he's, he's got no filter. He's a bit of a narcissist, but his heart's in the right place. You know,
00:48:26
Speaker
Uh, he says stupid things, but immediately regrets it. Well, I did love one of my favorite scenes of this when he's, he's confessing to who he thinks is Natasha and the soul next to him. And then they get out and he finds out it's not her. It's actually Melina. And then he thinks he's got the earpiece. So he starts doing the whole speech again. And then Melina, she's like, she can't hear you. You don't have an earpiece. Well, Rachel Weiss was really good too, because she was just so deadpan with all that. Yeah. You know,
00:48:54
Speaker
I especially liked her. I missed it the first time, but at the very end when they meet up and Nat asks, are you okay? And she says, I'm very clearly injured. Yeah, I haven't seen Rachel Weisz and I can't remember the last time I had seen her or anything. No, I haven't seen her for a long time either. She's just busy being James Bond's wife, I guess. Oh, really? I think she's married to Daniel Craig. I did not know that. I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, I think they've been married for years.
00:49:24
Speaker
Yeah, looking at this, the last thing she had been in was in 2018. And it looks like it's just like a bunch of small movies. Like I hadn't, the last big movie it looks like she was in was Oz. Which was back in 2013. I don't honestly remember her from too much except for the Mummy series. She was in, wasn't she in, what was that sniper movie, the Russian sniper movie with Jude Law?
00:49:53
Speaker
Stalingrad? I don't know, I didn't see that one, but she was also in, I remember she was also in Constantine and she was also in, she was in a bunch of movies for a while in like the early 2000s. She was like in everything, she was in Confidence, she was in Runaway Jury with John Cusack and a bunch of other movies around that time, like she was appearing in everything.
00:50:17
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of had her and Kate Winslet were very similar types, I thought. So maybe Kate Winslet took over some of her parts. Maybe, yeah. Kind of, yeah. But yeah, I mean, it was very good casting for sure, with that as well. Yeah, I really think they were really intent that they said they wanted to get Rachel Vice for that part. Yeah. And I'm not familiar with her character in the comics. She's somebody called Iron Maiden, is that right?
00:50:44
Speaker
I don't know. Like I said, I'm not as familiar with Black Widow's history, so. Yeah, I just kind of looked it up. And apparently she was a character called Iron Maiden, who was originally a rival of the Black Widow. But I think it's, again, just a case of we need a name that's recognizable from the comics. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm looking it up now. Yeah, Melina goes to talk person. So, yeah, she was originally in Marvel Fanfare in 1983, and she was
00:51:14
Speaker
She was called the Iron Maiden and she was actually a successor to Black Widow. And yeah, it's interesting now to see how they kind of rework these different relationships because Yelena as well was a successor to Black Widow. And then you have Red Guardian who in the comics was actually Natasha's husband.
00:51:36
Speaker
Right, yeah, which is creepy and gross. Although I'm not familiar with that version, the Alexi version of Red Guardian from the comics. I was mostly familiar with, I think it was the second Red Guardian, who was the female Red Guardian, Tanya Bielanski. I never even knew there was a female Red Guardian. Yeah, I knew her because she was a big part of Steve Gerber's Defenders Run.
00:52:02
Speaker
Oh, OK. And that was just that was an amazing series of comics back in the day. Yeah, I know. I've been familiar, you know, just in passing with the Winter Guard a little bit because they would kind of they'd occasionally come up in maybe Avengers comics or they might have even crossed over with the X-Men once or twice. Yeah, because they had they had some crossover colossus. I think Darkstar as well. She was a she was a dark star in Vanguard were were both mutants. So there was some crossover there. Oh, so is Ursa Major. Yeah, Ursa Major as well. That was another one, too.
00:52:32
Speaker
Yeah, the guy who played Ursa Major in the movie there, he said he's now officially the first mutant in the MCU. Whether or not they agree with that, I don't know. Well, we'll see what happens with, because if my theory proves to be correct, I think they're going to wreck on Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver into being mutants. Right. Yeah, I mean, the whole prison sequence was quite interesting and fun, I thought, but also
00:52:58
Speaker
like a little disturbing when you think about it. Like how many people died in that avalanche? I was thinking the same thing when I saw that when I saw that scene the first time I saw the movie. I was curious about the prison actually though like do they not have any power dampening equipment in that prison? It doesn't seem like it. I mean even in
00:53:23
Speaker
Even in the raft, it didn't seem like they had really had any power dampening stuff, did they? No, that's not something they've really introduced in the MCU yet then. Yeah, I don't think so, not really. Because that's pretty standard in the comics is every time they go to a prison, they have a power dampening collar or whatever. Right, or it's like the cells have some sort of measures or something like that. I think that was the big thing about the vault is like each cell was like specifically designed or something like that.
00:53:50
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, because he just, you know, at any time, it seems like he could have punched his way out of there. I really like the fact that he was quite spry, like when they said, you know, hey, you got to get to the chopper. And then he just kind of Spiderman up that wall. Yeah. Until he got too fat at the top, I guess. And it looks like he's from what he said, there there may be a chance that he that he gets to come back at some point in the future. So.
00:54:17
Speaker
Well, I would like to see more, you know, kind of international teams that, you know, show us what people are doing. One of the comics that I really liked way back in the day was something called Contest of Champions. Right. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever read that. It was from... I never read it, but I do know of it.
00:54:34
Speaker
It was the early 80s and they just, you know, it was the collector or whatever or whoever coming to have a battle and they just chose teams of heroes. But the heroes had to be international. So they introduced like some Irish woman called Shamrock and like a French dude called the Peregrine or that kind of thing. And they're, I think, literally one appearance characters in the comic books.
00:55:01
Speaker
but then they're there, they're in canon and somebody can bring them back. Yeah, there have been a bunch of those, like there was Hochmann-Duchland at one point too, I remember, there was another, like, you know, Captain Germany. Sure.
00:55:13
Speaker
Of course, you know, Union Jack, Captain Britain, Black Knight, all those too. Well, I think a British super team might be something good to see soon in the works. Isn't, uh, what's his name? Kit Harrington is playing Dane. Yeah, he's playing Black Knight and then they've done. So yeah, they have, and now they got the X-Men right. So that presumably also includes Captain Britain as well.
00:55:37
Speaker
So there could be like a MI-13 thing later on down the line or Excalibur or whichever way they choose to go with that. And bring in Pete Wisdom again. That would be nice. I love Pete Wisdom. He's always one of my favorite characters. And then right now too, I don't know if it's right now, but a couple of years ago they had the whole Agents of Atlas thing going on with the Asian characters.
00:56:00
Speaker
Right. Right. South Koreans and Chinese and Taiwanese and all of that mixed together. That was kind of fun. Yeah. And they've already introduced Jimmy Wu. So. And isn't Amadeus Cho been kind of name dropped? He's his mother was in Age of Ultron. So. OK. So. Yeah. So that's that exists. And then there's also a Philippine super team at one point in Fractions Iron Man run, I think. Right.
00:56:25
Speaker
And then, of course, I've always, always wanted Alpha Flight to appear at some point. Yeah. You know, I'm talking old school Alpha Flight. I want Sasquatch and Puck. You know, well, they would get us Puck. I remember everybody thought that when they announced that Peter Dinklage was going to be in Days of Future Past, everybody thought he was going to be playing Puck.
00:56:48
Speaker
Yeah. And then he was just a trask. He was just, he was Bollywood trask. Yeah. So I did like, they, they didn't go with that expectation. Yeah. Um, now what do you think of taskmaster in this movie? Uh, I honestly, I don't know why, why did it have to be taskmaster? Just again, it's another situation where they needed to name drop something and like, Oh, what's a name we can use? Because, and then I, I was very disappointed by the costume design.
00:57:18
Speaker
Like, I don't mind that it's a woman. I don't mind that it's Dreykov's daughter, but I do like the Taskmaster in the comics. And the Taskmaster is often used as a bit of a comic character. Right. Yeah. He's kind of funny. He teams up sometimes with the evil Ant-Man and, you know, their buddies. And he's often hanging out at a bar with other villains. Gail Simone's Deadpool run. He was great. She had him in there a lot too.
00:57:46
Speaker
and he plays both sides a lot of the time. I just like the costume with the skull and the hood and the orange and the blue. Isn't he very much like Deathstroke? In terms of weapons and all that, maybe, I guess, but not so much look, I'd say. I think Deadpool is probably more like Deathstroke than anything else. Are they both an orange and blue motif though? Oh yeah, you're right. In terms of color scheme, yeah.
00:58:14
Speaker
It's kind of one of those things where they're doing the parallel DC Marvel stuff. Yeah. And I also, like, I don't, I found the costume. To me, I had the same reaction as when I saw the Green Goblin in Spider-Man. And it's like, why can't they just go with the comic book costume? Why do they have to make it all Mechie robot suit stuff? You know, the same way with, you know, the throwaway scene with Paul Giamatti as the Rhino.
00:58:43
Speaker
you know, in his big tank costume. Like, give me the muscle guy stuck in a rhino suit. Like, that's what I want. I didn't have the same reaction to the costume as you did. I thought the costume was pretty well. I thought it was a nice way to kind of integrate it in. But I do agree with you about kind of being disappointed with Taskmaster. Like, I wasn't as annoyed as I was with like the Mandarin situation.
00:59:10
Speaker
when that came out, but I did, I also do miss like kind of the, and I thought, you know, it worked for Natasha's character in this movie and all that to have Draykov's daughter come back that way. But I think the biggest problem with it is why that revelation didn't hit as much is because we never really got much about Draykov's daughter. It was just that one throwaway line and that can be interpreted in many different ways from,
00:59:39
Speaker
So that revelation that, oh, she had thought she'd killed her, but it turns out, no, I think if we had known more about Dreykov's daughter to begin with, I think it may have hit a little harder than it did here. And I don't know if she should forgive her so easily and that kind of thing too. Maybe she should hold a little bit of a grudge if they're going to bring her back.
01:00:02
Speaker
But who knows, will they bring her back? I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. And as people have said, because of that, you know, they've introduced all the widows and they've introduced Yelena and, you know, Taskmaster and all that. How come they weren't in the final fight in Endgame and all that stuff?
01:00:19
Speaker
But right. Yeah. Yeah. Makes me wonder if they won't kind of CGI edit some of these people in later on. You never know. Yeah. But yeah, I was I was missing. That was my biggest. I think that was probably my biggest complaint about this movie. What was Taskmaster is and again, not that I disliked what they did here. It's just that I miss the Taskmaster from the comics. I miss that kind of
01:00:41
Speaker
that bantry type of character. Although the fact that it is not the same guy from the comics, it means they could always bring him back in some way. So true. They just should have not used the name Taskmaster. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was just, I think you're right. They just felt like they had to use a character from the comics since they just picked Taskmaster. And I, I mean, I,
01:01:03
Speaker
I, the fight sequences were okay, but I don't know if they were super great with that. There were some nice little nods, you know, we got the Hawkeye Bow, we got the Black Panther Claws, we had the Winter Soldier Knife Flip, we had the Cap Shield stuff, of course.
01:01:22
Speaker
Although I was kind of, I noticed in the chase scene in Budapest, like there's that scene where they crash into the subway station in the car and then a taskmaster chases them and she throws the shield and the shield follows the path of the escalator. I was wondering the physics on that. I don't know. And maybe it was a, maybe it was kind of a remote control thing or something. Maybe, maybe. Is it vibranium?
01:01:50
Speaker
I'm not sure. What do you think of Ray Winston as the as Drake off? Honestly, generic. Like I, I think this that one of the big draw flaws of this movie in general, was that the villains weren't particularly strong or compelling, I don't think.
01:02:07
Speaker
Yeah. There wasn't a lot of, there wasn't not a whole lot of memorable villains. Um, and it was a little disappointing to see that I didn't recognize it. It was Ray Winston at first. Um, and I think that was also a little bit disappointing when I found out later, because he usually does a much better job. Yeah. Well, he was just kind of, you know, the big, the fat, beefy handed, you know, mafia guy that he always, he often plays that. So I could see why they cast him, but I think they needed maybe a little more.
01:02:37
Speaker
If they had added a scene or two earlier with him being really super evil, that would have helped maybe. Like in the opening credits kind of montage there where they're doing the whole human trafficking thing of the widows and then he says, oh, not that one, not that one. If they'd actually shown him maybe executing a couple of them or done something to make us feel like he was a really
01:03:01
Speaker
evil, evil guy. Well, I think we obviously he's evil. But yeah, I think also it would have been nice to see more about his his connections with the US government, because we get hints of that in the opening sequence, like him with like Condoleezza Rice and Bill Clinton and all that. And I would like to see more of that type stuff, because I do like when they find ways to integrate, you know, superheroes into real history, like Captain America Winter Soldier did that really good where they worked in Operation Paperclip with Hydra.
01:03:30
Speaker
Yeah. And I would have liked to see more stuff like that. I think that would have been really cool. But yeah, he was. Is he dead? I couldn't really tell if that was confirmed or not. Seemed like the same kind of thing of the explosion at his building where did we see a body? Yeah. I'm pretty sure the intent is that he's dead because that's giving Natasha that closure. Right.
01:03:54
Speaker
Although it is kind of weird because the whole movie is, for this movie to exist, they have to undo this closure that she already thought she had. So I think that's also kind of a weird thing. I would not have set this after Civil War. If I were making this movie, I would have actually set it before Iron Man and all that. I would have had it shown her defection from S.H.I.E.L.D. and all that. I think that would have been the way to do it.
01:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think we could have used a little more origin story. I mean, Natasha in the comics is kind of isn't she slightly like slow aging as well in the. Yeah. Yeah. Like Captain America style or whatever. She was because Captain American Wolverine rescued her as a little girl in World War Two.
01:04:40
Speaker
Yeah, like she was around in the 60s or whatever during the Cuban Missile Crisis and all that kind of stuff. Yes, they've established that she's got like kind of an infinity formula type of thing and she ages slowly. Winter Soldier disputed that, they threw that out because they established her birthday as 1984. Right.
01:04:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I guess it, I mean, it makes more sense with the, in the MCU because the actors are going to age and that kind of thing. So they don't want to be using that de-aging technology too much. Right. Right. I think it was also, it's also been a little bit confusing though, because she talks about being part of the KGB and age of Ultron, but KGB was, was, it was no longer part, it was no longer existed. Well, that's just it, right? Like Ohio was what 1995?
01:05:26
Speaker
something like that. Yeah. Yeah. It seems a bit late. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this was already when the Berlin wall was gone and you know, so it doesn't really, I would say that like the, the cold war hidden Russian family thing is more like a late seventies, early eighties trope. That's what I felt too. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And there's some problems as far as that timeline goes and all that. And, and I would like to sing,
01:05:51
Speaker
more of the origin story stuff, like you said, and I think it would have worked so much better if it had been about her defection from the Red Room. Yeah. Because there's not really, I don't really think we need to see how she gets from the end of Civil War to the beginning of Infinity War. I mean, that's not a difficult leap to make. It's obvious she
01:06:17
Speaker
And also it seems like they've got two quinjets now because they, because Kappen stole the quinjet at the end of the Civil War anyway. So, and then they give her one here in this movie. Yeah. Oh, right. But maybe he left that in Wakanda for repairs. Or maybe Rick Mason stole that one. Maybe.
01:06:35
Speaker
But yeah, it was. What about Rick Mason? Like, what did you think about that guy's character? He was, he was interesting. He was fun, I thought, but there wasn't a whole, it wasn't really much for him. He was just there to be the guy who, you know, gives them what they need. Cause I read, I read that they added some extra scene with him at the end because they, he tested well. Oh really? With audiences or whatever. He did a good job in the performance. I mean, he wasn't, he was a fun little character, but it wasn't anything that like, you know,
01:07:05
Speaker
I'm not like dying to see like the return of their nation or anything. It's another name drop thing where they're just kind of using a name for no apparent reason because apparently in the comics he's the son of the tinkerer. Oh, okay, okay. And then his son was killed in the Stanford incident with set off civil war. And then he's more of a Miss Marvel character. Like he's a counter kind of agent espionage
01:07:32
Speaker
Air Force Captain Marvel stuff. Okay. Or Ms. Marvel rather. Okay. I didn't know that he was, I didn't know that he was, he was the tinkerer's son. That's interesting. Because they had the tinkerer in Homecoming too. Yeah. Did you notice there was that little moment when Nat and Yelena go to get the helicopter and he calls her Serena?
01:07:56
Speaker
I didn't notice that, no. Yeah, when Mason, I rewounded several times because Mason called Yelena Serena. And I'm wondering if that was her cover name or there was a scene somewhere else, but they didn't really, they edited, they cut that out. Maybe that's, I didn't even notice that. So that's a good point. Cause he obviously knew both of them, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause he set her up in the safe house in Budapest.
01:08:21
Speaker
Yeah. So he's working all angles and he knows all these people, whether or not he knows about their relationship, I don't know.
01:08:31
Speaker
Now, did you ever think that he might be the taskmaster? Because I'd heard some people saying they thought he might be the taskmaster. I didn't have any suspicions going in one way or the other. But I do know that was a that was a big question mark, because in all they did those one sheet posters of each of the main cast members. Right. And it had their had the actor's name on it, except for Taskmaster. Taskmaster was the only one didn't have an actor's name on it. So everybody was wondering.
01:08:58
Speaker
Is the Taskmaster someone else in the cast? Is the Taskmaster someone we've already seen in the MCU? I couldn't really put Olga Kurilenko on there. It would have given away the whole... Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a woman. Oh, no. Yeah, I don't know if we're going to see. Do you think we're going to see any of these widows again? Any of the other ones?
01:09:19
Speaker
I think I'd be surprised if we did, but you never know. I mean, I never thought that after Red Norton was gone, that I never thought we'd see William Hurt come back as Ross. And now, you know, he's been in three extra movies, so. Yeah. Do you think we'll ever see Ross as Red Hulk? I don't think we'll see that.
01:09:39
Speaker
No, he's too old. But yeah, but I mean, I am glad they brought him. That was that was one of the things that kind of disappointed me, too, about this is that they had made kind of a big thing about William Hurt being back as Ross in this movie. And outside of that opening scene, he didn't really have any any real purpose in the movie. No, he just came on to name drop Barton and Wilson's names and establish the timeline and forget Paul Red's name. Yeah, yeah.
01:10:06
Speaker
That interest, it was interesting that opening scene though. I liked the kind of bait and switch that they did with Black Widow or Nat. We think there's gonna be a big fight and then she opens the door on a ferry and she's not even in the country. And then the actual, I think it's quite telling that the first fight is Yelena's. That kind of establishes to me that this is maybe Yelena's movie. Yeah, yeah.
01:10:34
Speaker
And
Critique of Black Widow's Fight Choreography
01:10:35
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I'd have to go back and really take a look. But I think that the fight choreography in general was not as good in this movie as it has been in previous MCU movies. Yeah, it wasn't anything. It was fine. I thought it was it was definitely serviceable, but nothing that stood out really. Yeah.
01:10:52
Speaker
Because I think just like I say, I watched Civil War very recently and even Age of Ultron, there are some very good fight sequences in that. Yeah. And even especially with Black Widow, she's got some really good fight sequences there. And I did like how they, yes, I agree. I also did like how they worked in her her classic costume at the end there. Like I thought that was a nice little nod to the comics, even because she did wear this white suit as well in the comics at one point, too. Yeah.
01:11:22
Speaker
So I did like how they work both of those in. Yeah, I'm hoping she was she wore the white suit in the snow situation, right? I can't remember. All I know is I had seen like mentions of it in the comics at some point. Because I don't think she wears a white suit for the moon night purposes of so they can see her coming. No, definitely not. OK, Ashley, any other things you want to mention about this movie?
01:11:50
Speaker
Um, not a whole lot. I mean, I just like, if you haven't seen it, just see it for Florence Pugh's performance alone. Like she's just, I think she's a real, real nice addition to this cast to the whole MCU universe. And I'm hoping they're going to do a lot with her going forward. Cause I think she's really, really good actor.
01:12:11
Speaker
Like I said that the dinner table scene in the middle of the movie where they're having the family reunion and she's just pounding shots of vodka and getting more and more hurt by what they're saying and you know the fact that it was her that was real to her that was her childhood like why don't ruin this for me like you know
01:12:30
Speaker
So I just think she'll be a very nice addition to the cast. And I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with her in Hawkeye. Same here. Yeah. Well, also, do you think? Yeah, I just want to mention, too, that I forgot to mention that Julia Louis Dreyfus appearing in the in the post credit scene. Yeah. Just like I have been so psyched about seeing her in the MCU ever since she popped up in Falcon and Winter Soldier. And why she's so good. She is. Yeah.
01:12:57
Speaker
And I mean, part of it is I mean, she is playing this. Essentially, she's Selena Meyer. Yeah. Yeah. Really. But I love her. Like, you know, you can't just not love her. Yeah. And I think that she her Falcon and Winter Soldier appearance was great. And this was great, too. I wonder if there'd be any difference if they were switched because Black Widow was supposed to come out earlier, apparently. So this was. It was. Yeah.
01:13:21
Speaker
This was supposed to be the first time we saw her. And yeah, so I think I think that would have landed a lot more. I think it would have been a lot more groundbreaking if this had been her first appearance, because it was great just seeing her stroll in and fall in with your soldier. But I think having her appear just in this, like it would have been just been like an atom bomb on the fan fandom.
01:13:41
Speaker
But I mean, in this movie, she didn't introduce herself or anything. She just said, here's your next mission. Like in Falcon and Winter Soldier, she tells them her name. She tells them how to say it. She says it's short from you can say Val, but don't say it in real life. Say it in your brain. Well, I think because she does. I think there was that one line where where Elena calls her Valentina.
01:14:02
Speaker
OK, so there was that, but they didn't say anything more, which I think would have gotten would have made people go crazy because everybody would have know everybody who knows about, you know, shield in the comics would have been like, oh, that's the Contessa. Yeah, yeah. So are they
Speculation on Future MCU Projects
01:14:17
Speaker
built? Do you think they're building towards the Thunderbolts here or what? Thunderbolts or Dark Avengers or something like that. Or like I say, we said the champions and the young Avengers mix, right? A Dark Avengers mix. Right. Because, you know, we've already got
01:14:32
Speaker
John Walker officially becoming U.S. agent at the end of Falcon and Winter Soldier. We've got Yelena in here now, too. Zemo's still out there somewhere. Abomination. Mostly abominations in Shang-Chi. Yep, he's popping up in Shang-Chi. He's supposed to be appearing in She-Hulk, too, I believe.
01:14:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I'm all for Zemo coming back because he was fantastic in Captain and the Winter Soldier. Yeah, it was. It was interesting because we were talking. I was talking about it with I think I was talking about with Adam and just his. He didn't really have a real reason to be in that show, but he was just so entertaining while he was in it.
01:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, well, he's so good. He was so good in civil war. Same here. Yeah. So I think that'll be good. And then I don't know. Agatha Harkness, White Vision. White Vision. I'm hope because Paul Bettany has said he doesn't know if he's coming back or not. He hasn't really been told if he's coming back or anything. So. Right. Yeah. It seems like he'd be willing to. Seems like he would. Yeah. Yeah.
01:15:28
Speaker
It's kind of unfortunate the like with WandaVision, I think they've kind of burned already the Vision series that they could have done if they had just adapted that really great run of the comics from three or four years ago where he was living in suburban America. The introduction of VivVision and you know, maybe they'll introduce VivVision somehow too, who knows? They might find a way to work it out. I mean, that could be kind of how Vision tries to pierce some
01:15:57
Speaker
piece himself back together after all of this. So I think there's definitely a world where you could do some of that. Although I think part of WandaVision was they were going back to Tom King's run anyway. Right. And then are they going to, I heard a rumor that Disney is trying to, angling to buy Sony now to try to get Spiderman back. I would not put any stock in that. No, maybe it was from, we got this covered. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Or Grace Randolph or any other, the snake oil salesman they got around there on Twitter.
01:16:27
Speaker
All right, Ashley, thanks so much for coming on. I don't know if you got anything you wanted to promote or direct people towards.
Podcast Conclusion and Future Format Changes
01:16:36
Speaker
No, I got nothing to plug at all. Just to you, keep up with the good work. And as I say, I've been listening to the past podcasts of this. And so I'm happy to kind of come in and be able to take part in this and my condolences on the loss of Derek. Well, thanks. I appreciate that.
01:16:56
Speaker
just listening to him again and again makes me happy and sad at the same time, even though I never met the guy, so. Yeah, yeah, I feel the same thing and I did know him, so, but I do find myself just re-listening to old episodes just so I can, you know, still have that, still remember what it was like to have him on the show. Yeah. Yeah, anytime, I'm willing to come back anytime you'll have me and let me know. Absolutely, yeah. Plenty coming down the pipeline.
01:17:26
Speaker
And there's plenty more that we haven't even covered that's already come to happen. So yeah, Iron Man 3. No, we haven't done that yet. So we've only done the first Iron Man so far. Yeah, I know. All right. Okay. So that does it for us. Thanks so much for listening. Thanks so much for watching. This will probably actually be the last video episode we're doing just because the YouTube presence hasn't been
01:17:49
Speaker
that big, so we'll probably just be switching to audio only from this point on. But anyway, thanks so much for listening, for watching. Please go to superherocinephiles.com or give us a review on Apple Podcasts or anywhere you get your podcasts. And also, you can follow us on Supercinemapod, both on Twitter and Instagram. Thanks again. And if you're interested in coming on the show and being a guest, you can drop me a line through the contact form or
01:18:16
Speaker
Email me directly at superherosinafiles at gmail.com Thanks again to the superhero cinephiles podcast follow us on twitter and instagram at super cinema pod Join our facebook group by searching for superhero cinephiles where you can interact with us and other superhero fans If you'd like to support the show you can become a regular supporter at patreon or make a one-time donation through paypal Both of which can be found at our website superhero cinephiles.com
01:18:42
Speaker
If you buy or rent any movies through the amazon links at our site, it helps support the show Please be sure to rate and review us on apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Thank you for listening and as always
01:19:12
Speaker
Good night. Good evening. God bless.