Transcript
Speaker: Greetings friends. Thank you for joining us on the Mentally Oddcast where each week our guests regale us with tales of the creative process through the lens of addiction, recovery, mental and emotional health, trauma, treatment, medication, all that there because we believe that no matter what you are going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
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Speaker: This week, I am speaking to the Reverend Josh Hostler. who studied music theory at Olivet College in the 90s and then took up a career in radio consulting.
Speaker: But life threw him a few curveballs and in 2014, he was ordained as an Episcopal priest. Currently, he serves as rector of the Church of the Good Shepherd in Federal Way, Washington. Josh enjoys hanging out with his wife and adult child. Good Lord, she's an adult. um Keeping up with far-flung friends on social media, singing, composing church music, and chronicling the history of popular music. yeah Welcome, Josh. Thank you. Thank you. And yes, she's an adult. She's turning 21 this week.
Speaker: Oh my goodness, that's insane. It's weird. It's weird being the same age as old people. I'm so not used to it. Yeah. So we usually start by asking guests about the first horror movie that they remember seeing. And I don't know yours. I bet you don't. I i think I thought about this. I think I'd have to say it was Poltergeist.
Speaker: I remember popular answer. god That's that's our age. I remember that being on HBO constantly. And we only had access to HBO at the babysitter's house. Right. So I'm sure my brother and I saw it over and over again. And our parents were never aware that we saw it.
Speaker: Oh my goodness. Wow. So was were horror movies frowned upon or anything over a PG? or horror I wouldn't say horror movies were frowned upon. It's just that we were so darn little at that point. I mean, there's no way my parents would have wanted us watching that. um oh Yeah, it was it wasn't an issue with the genre. It was an issue with our age, I'm sure.
Speaker: I see. Yeah. See, my parents had no such. i mean, I saw, I think I was seven when Alien came out. I saw that at the drive-in. I was nine for Friday the 13th, again, driving. Well, i my parents also just didn't care for her horror movies, you know?
Speaker: So, ah yeah. Well, that would make sense. Now, I do not typically refer to you as the Reverend Josh, but I am today. Right. i'm not Obviously, this is a title that you earned, but I am curious to know why that title is important to you. Well, you know, it it kind of is and it kind of isn't. um The Reverend is kind of a funny title, right? i mean, it's an adjective. It's not a noun. Most people drop the the.
Speaker: um But you wouldn't just call a judge honorable, right? You wouldn't say, hey, honorable, yo, honorable. It's exactly the same with reverend. I mean, maybe you would just for fun, but it's it's the same kind of thing. And I don't even know what the adjective reverend is supposed to mean. Is it like reverend, but with the t with a D? I don't know. maybe Maybe I should be the irreverend Josh Hostler. I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker: But honestly, the title isn't that important to me. A lot of people call me Father Josh and they can do that if they want, but I prefer just Josh or if they have to have a title then Pastor Josh. That's better I think because it's gender neutral, but anyway, I don't need to take on everyone's daddy issues with father.
Speaker: but Yeah, I could see where that might become burdensome. um Interestingly, I find that there's a pretty stark contrast between people who call themselves Reverend to identify that they're part of a community and that people can come and approach them if they want to. And people that identify as a reverend to bolster themselves, make themselves seem more important than they are, or to affirm that they are being honest in a situation. Oh, that doesn't affirm anything like that.
Speaker: No, i mean, well, and that's, that's the thing, like, you know, if you and I, we do not practice the same faith. I generally, I mean, I give money to Satanic Temple. I joined in 2016. But I'm married to a Christian. So, you know,
Speaker: but i I think there's so much happening with some of the louder Christians these days. I don't even think it's the majority, but it is the the loud ones that just make me bristle when someone mentions their religion to me, when they say things like, I'll pray for you. yeah I'm just like, you know what?
Speaker: Don't. yeah I mean, i understand that it's well-intentioned, but if you know I don't believe, isn't that sort of... presumptuous yeah yeah it is it is it doesn't it doesn't seem helpful it seems performative yeah you know what they say about christianity all the all the noise comes from the shallow end of the pool ah i'm i'm not familiar with that phrase that makes a lot of sense right yeah yeah Well, and you know you you say you've given money to the Satanic Temple, and that so profoundly does not alarm me in any way. um i think first and foremost, because I know that that the Satanic Temple is not about the worship of Satan.
Speaker: um I can't say that I know all that much about it, but I know that much. And and I know that's like counterintuitive and surprising to most Christians. um I remember having a great conversation once with a bartender at a wedding reception. And after he himself had had a couple drinks, he called me over and he started asking me questions because he saw my collar. Right. He was very proud of being a Satanist, and he expected me to be shocked by that. And then he started asking me questions about the role of Lilith, Adam's mythical first wife. And I had to break the news to him that Lilith is not in the Bible, that she's a later figure in Jewish mysticism. And he didn't believe me at first. Anyway, we had a great conversation.
Speaker: And from behind the bar, he kept working on another drink. and another, and then he went and puked all over the floor and someone from the wedding family had to take over bartending duty for the rest of the night. Wow. Yeah. but Wow. So, you know, one of my one of my fun connections with people there. um There was also another time i was um I was helping with the Episcopal Church booth at Tacoma Pride one year, and the Satanic Temple was there with a booth of their own and they were offering unbaptisms.
Speaker: They were... helping people revoke the ritual act that had made them Christians to begin with. And I thought that was fascinating because in a way, I think it gives credence to the ritual reality of baptism, right? If it's something you have to undo, then it's something that was very real to you in the first place in some way. And I do believe ritual is a big part of what makes us human, right? Both physical and spiritual creatures.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. i mean, you know, which rituals make sense and which don't, I think is a ah matter for debate. Right. Because I just remember, like I was introduced to the practice of religion fairly late. Like I was in junior high when my mom decided we were going to go to Catholic school and you got a discount if you remember the church. So we all joined the church. And so suddenly at like 12, I was baptized, first communion, reconciliation, you know confession. And then the next year was confirmation, just boom, boom, boom, right in a row. And I just remember sitting there and saying,
Speaker: what what do you mean we eat him? what What are you saying? i think and you know And so these nuns are explaining to me that, well, we engage in ritualized cannibalism and it starts when you're about seven and and there's wine, we'll have wine. um so But that's the thing is it seems...
Speaker: If you grew up with it, it makes a lot of sense. But if you spring that on somebody that is unfamiliar, like, really? They're going to give us wine. We're going to go there and the guy in charge is just going to hand us wine.
Speaker: I got bitched out at a wedding for drinking wine, but it's okay here. Why? What why what is ah what is happening? Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny, there's there's that that meme that goes around, you know, explain your job badly. What I'd say about my job is that I pretend to drown children and then I serve them alcohol.
Speaker: ah So it is a little weird from the outside. mean, and I bet you couldn't get those nuns to to admit to you that that the body of Christ that you were consuming was also still bread.
Speaker: Well, yeah. I mean, we weren't really talking about gluten back in the day, but perhaps we should have been. Right, right. I mean, i assume they make gluten-free Eucharist now. They do. Yeah, my wife is gluten-free. I keep a separate little container with the gluten-free wafers that I have not touched.
Speaker: Right. we've We've got someone in the congregation with celiac and and she actually serves at the altar. So she cannot touch that or we can't touch it. And so I carry around a separate container and the people who need gluten free reach in and take it for themselves. I don't put it in their hand.
Speaker: Oh, wow. Okay. Well, that used to be is a source of contention. like It still isn't. because when i Yeah. Like, is it okay to to touch it Like, we were taught that only the priest was allowed to touch it. Yeah. You know, we had like filthy cum in our hands or something. I don't know. It probably is honestly cleaner to just let one person touch it. but um The entire congregation drank out of the same chalice in church. should they just do the little They'd wipe it with a cloth. It's true. We still do that.
Speaker: Yeah. Wow. People want to like take they want to take their bread and dip it in the wine. That's actually way germier. People don't know this, but the likelihood of people actually getting their fingers in the wine is really, really high. So we tell them, no, don't dip it. Just, you know, just sip from the common cup. It's OK. It's alcohol. You know, it most of the you could theoretically catch a cold, but you probably won't.
Speaker: Well, then God's looking out for you, right? Like that's his thing. indeed I remember i I was in church and I had a stomach ache and my mom said, well, maybe you want to take the the bread and the wine. and I said, no, I want to do it. Cause I was feeling all pious, you know? to get sick from this wine. um i well okay, I was young. but I didn't get it.
Speaker: All right. Now i would like to hear what inspired your journey toward ordination. What inspires someone to to do that? Well, yeah yeah. So, yeah, I mean, we went to Olivet College together and um I guess that was technically a religious school, right?
Speaker: But I mean, even when we were there, I think that was more of a historical reality than than what was actually going on on the ground. I remember we did band concerts in the church on campus, but I don't remember a lot of the students actually attending services at that church. And I don't know. That's true. I think I was only in the church to hear music. Right. And I don't have any memory of memory of the parishioners going out from the church and meeting the students either, frankly. um So, you know, yeah, our our Christian college is just kind of by the by. mean, the first thing to know is that my dad was an Episcopal priest and and then my mom was ordained to the priesthood as well while I was in college. So naturally, i assumed I would never do anything like that. Right. I mean, I grew up knowing the pluses and the minuses of being in a clergy family.
Speaker: um my dad battled depression and anger issues and uh yeah he wasn't a violent man at all he was deeply loving deeply compassionate but he was also a perfectionist and a workaholic and he would get so frustrated when people didn't see things his way or go along with his ideas you know he'd go around slamming doors and just being angry and You might think that that was about like, well, who's joining the church and who isn't, but that wasn't what it was about. It was really about
Speaker: his disagreements with others about the best ways to be the church for the rest of the world and how people should or shouldn't become leaders in the church. And he had good ideas. He had open-minded ideas, but ironically he came to hold these open-minded ideas really rigidly. So, so that was, you know, like one of the minuses I saw growing up.
Speaker: um My mom is still living. She's a retired priest now with a new partner and they're both actually in my congregation. That was sweet. Yeah. So that's kind of fun. um and you know, whereas I always saw my dad as the guardian of the best ideas, I saw my mom as the keeper of the best wisdom.
Speaker: um She's always been able to meet people where they are and and was always far more comfortable with ambiguity than my dad. um She's also a really logical thinker, and that counteracted my dad's tendency to go from the gut. um So I think there's a lot of both of them in me.
Speaker: um So as I grew up and, you know, in the church and I was in church every week, I was also really into music and radio. And I found my way into a good job with a radio consulting company in Seattle. And that went on for nearly 10 years. And meanwhile, I was involved at St. Mark's Cathedral in Seattle in lots of ways.
Speaker: And I was helping on a regional level with youth ministry. it was We were gathering teenagers from lots of different churches for weekend retreats and building community together with them. And I think I was good at that. um I still really enjoy the company of youth and young adults, but I never thought ordination was in the picture.
Speaker: So the radio job was fun, but I wasn't growing in it. at became more corporate and, you know, got bought and everything. And then everything I got, I got more stagnant as time went on. I wasn't growing.
Speaker: And then in the summer of 2004, I was staffing a week-long camp for high schoolers, church camp, and I had an opportunity to preach a sermon for the first time. And lay people do preach sermons in church. That's not uncommon. And I really enjoyed that process of preparation and preaching. And and after that service, our visiting priest that day came up to me and said, what do you do for a living?
Speaker: And I said, I help small market radio stations with their music programming decisions. And she said, oh, no, no, no, no. no no You are called to be a priest. You had 50 teenagers in the palm of your hand. Do you know how rare that is?
Speaker: And I laughed and I said, no, no, no, no. don Being a priest is what my parents do, not me. And she said, OK, we'll tell you what, after camp is over, let's get coffee together. And I said, all right, sure, we'll we'll do that.
Speaker: And I don't always include this detail, but that same week at the end of camp, I got a note from one of the kids and she wrote, if you become a priest, I will go to church. Okay. Well, a week and a half later, I was laid off from my job in a big round of budget cuts.
Speaker: um I know, right? I mean, that could be a coincidence. Absolutely. Maybe it was, but I decided to treat it as spiritually significant. Right. So I called up that priest and I said, all right, all right. How about coffee?
Speaker: And I couldn't find another job in radio. I looked all over the place. I wound up as the youth director in an Episcopal congregation. And then that job eventually went to full-time and included more duties. And I started preaching there as well. And over the next seven years, it became super clear to everyone else And then only after that to me that my gifts and the work of a priest went hand in hand.
Speaker: It also needed to become clear to my wife. That took time as well. so So my family moved to Virginia and I went to seminary for three years. I was ordained to the priesthood 10 years to the month after that experience with that priest at camp. That's that's how long that lasted. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I guess it could have gone faster, but I slowed it down. i dragged my heels big time. Now, I want to talk just a little bit about Episcopalianism. um In my family, there were a lot of Catholics. yeah And we don't need to bring up why. There were various reasons why people no longer wanted to support the church. Yeah.
Speaker: And most of them became Episcopalians. Oh, really? Okay. Yes. Like almost entirely. And my understanding is that this is because Episcopalians are among the more progressive churches. That's true. Um,
Speaker: more welcoming of people that are often shunned by churches, people who've been divorced, gay, lesbian, trans folks. right um And it's interesting because I've encountered a few people that are absolutely rabid about opposing ah homosexuality and and being trans and transitioning, but yet they are divorced.
Speaker: Yeah, right. yeah and And remarried, divorced and remarried. And that, I mean, are those those sins, they're they're on the same level. Like if if we agree that those, in fact, are bad. Well, we agree that those are bad. I mean, you know, Jesus had really strong words against divorce, but they were they were part of a conversation in which what he was really doing was holding men accountable for victimizing women by divorcing them and leaving them with no options in life.
Speaker: that's That's what Jesus' pronouncement about divorce was all about. And as for being LGBTQ, he never said a ah single word about any of that. So I, yeah, I mean, i i'm just I just tell people, know, being gay isn't a sin. It's just who you are.
Speaker: Let it be. Being trans, that's a real thing. People are trans. Get over it, you know? so Right, but if you were a Baptist and not an Episcopalian, that shit would not fly. and like Well, maybe if I was an American Baptist, it'd be fine. There are different Baptists out there too. American Baptists are kind of groovy.
Speaker: um Oh, are they? I grew up, when I lived in Hazel Park, there were we were surrounded by Baptists. And they weren't allowed to watch Love Boat. They weren't allowed to wear makeup. They couldn't play games that use dice because dice are gambling. No, yeah. And my mom was raised. The thing is, I think at one point they were allowed to play trouble because you didn't actually touch the dice.
Speaker: And I wondered if that's why they made trouble like that, because, you know, it had the the little bubble inside. And so you pop the bubble and it rolls the dice. And we always were taught that it's so you don't lose the dice because you have a game and you lose the dice and then you can't monopoly anymore. Right. So.
Speaker: Right. But, but with the trouble game, they were allowed to just press the thing and then it, it somehow wasn't gambling because they weren't touching it. It's pretty funny. I mean, touching me it's so arbitrary and so many of those rules seem arbitrary. My mom was raised American Baptist and her dad was a pastor. So, you know, there's another layer. My grandfather, who I never met, was ah an American Baptist pastor, but they weren't allowed to wear makeup or go to school. I don't know if they went to school dances. they They weren't allowed to play with decks of cards. That was their issue. but they But they could play Pitt because Pitt was not played with a standard deck of cards.
Speaker: um Oh, go figure. um All I know is that American Baptists aren't like that anymore, right? I mean, there's been a huge shift in the last, you know, 75 years or whatever. Well, I imagine they were losing memberships. People aren't going to stand for that. Right. You know, it's like Catholics with the birth control. Finally, the Pope was like, yeah and exactly I mean, really, you know, the Episcopal Church is just the next door neighbor to the Catholic Church, liturgically and theologically. I like to describe it as next door neighbors with a gigantic, really tall fence in between that some of us wish weren't quite as high. um
Speaker: we My church does shared ministry with the Catholic church down the street. We feed people together. And that's not a problem. um They wouldn't want me taking communion at their church, but we can definitely feed people together. So I think that's how we get somewhere is just by doing stuff together. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So what is your relationship with the Pope then? There isn't one. He's the Roman Catholic Bishop of Rome and we don't have any connection to him because 500 years ago, Henry VIII severed his ties or rather the Pope excommunicated him or whatever. um And Henry was,
Speaker: He wanted to be a loyal Catholic, but he also wanted to be in charge of his own church in his own country, which was kind of mega maniacal of him. He also had all been beheaded, you know, but that does those were the inauspicious beginnings of the Episcopal Church. i mean It's the Church of England and then then the Episcopal Church over here. So we're really just the Catholic Church that went through a reformation for different reasons than all the other people went through a reformation. If you go to an Episcopal service, it feels exactly like a Catholic service. um It might even be a little more traditional because we didn't go through the whole Vatican II. Now we're all singing folk masses thing, at least not in most places. so some people say we we're more Catholic than the Catholics are, depending on where you go.
Speaker: See, I've always thought that was more the Lutherans. like were Yeah. Catholic light. the The Lutherans are also next door neighbors to the Catholics. I mean, that was they were the first ones in the Reformation um and they didn't really change the service all that much. But but I would say they're less liturgically fussy than than Episcopalians are overall. I think we ah i think ah Lutherans would agree with me on that.
Speaker: I see. Yeah. Okay. Now, I want to talk. Sorry. hey Oh, no, I just I want to get into your diagnosis. Now, we talked about this a little bit.
Speaker: And what you had told me was that your diagnosis is mild depression and anxiety and that it started around 2017. Yeah.
Speaker: I wonder if something had happened to to make you feel mildly depressed and anxious right around 2017. Yeah, funny thing. And I'm not one. I'm coughing at you.
Speaker: ah yeah i'm it yeah um And that that was the election that he he actually won. you know He actually legitimately won the Electoral College. I don't think he got the most votes, but that's not how we do things here.
Speaker: Right. um Much to my dismay. Yeah, mine So is that with that in mind, I mean, so so what was happening was...
Speaker: probably at least in part circumstantial because holy shit, we gave our country to a ah fascist who rapes children. yeah Exactly, um yeah. You know what, let me just let me just change that um past tense.
Speaker: Rape for children. Yeah. Yeah. And then we didn't even necessarily know that at the time. Not that part. um ah No, we did we did. Oh, I guess. Okay. Maybe we did know. Yeah. It's worse. we We know now that it's worse than we then we knew. We'll put it that Well, because he had only admitted to assaulting adult women at that time. Yes, that's true. That's true. And some people were just totally fine with that. Yeah. Like, oh, well, they were asking for it, though, right? They were wearing clothes or something. I don't I I won't pretend to understand how they do that. that So anyway, I think, it of course, that was a factor. I think there were three factors. I think Trump was the second factor.
Speaker: I think the first one, I'll be honest, probably the rise of the smartphone. I mean, I was not an early adopter because they were really expensive, but When I finally got one in 2012, I was on that thing all the time. And I don't think I realized just how much my constant attention to it was affecting my sleep and my well-being. And I still wrestle with that. I know a lot of people do. If I'm when in doubt, go on Instagram. Right. And and I don't think that's helping. um The second factor was definitely the rise of fascism in America, which at first seemed to me, to many of us, like just a temporary oops, you know, that we were going to find our way out of.
Speaker: By then I was in my first job as a priest, which included working with a group of university students. And I remember telling them at one point that I thought I might be dealing with a bit of depression and I just wanted to give them some context for why I hadn't really been on my game lately.
Speaker: um But then the third thing was definitely COVID lockdown. That was really the clincher. um I'm a flaming extrovert. And so that time was really hard for me.
Speaker: um and By then I was in the role I am now at Good Shepherd and I was leading a congregation of mostly elderly people without being able to be in their presence and also having to teach a bunch of folks how to use Zoom.
Speaker: Um, including, you've never gotten all this technology stuff in the first place. So that was really rough. Um, here's an example in the first couple months of the pandemic, I had to do last rights over the phone. Um, it was, oh my gosh yeah, the, the woman's name was Peggy and she was so gracious and understanding, uh, even as she was actively dying, she really made it kind of a holy experience. She made it way easier.
Speaker: And thankfully, nobody else died before I was able to actually be present with them in their final days. But not that we had any funerals for quite a while. Some of them were greatly delayed or just didn't happen at all. Nobody in the congregation died of COVID. It could have been a lot worse.
Speaker: um So, know, I think it was those three things just kind of stacking up on each other. And and I just keep hoping for better days. But yeah, that that definitely, that's what got me there.
Speaker: um So what... When did you pursue a diagnosis and and why? Yeah, I have a memory of standing in my kitchen, probably in that awful winter of 2021, and noticing that I was having all these muscle twitches and ticks, you know, like this. And everything in the world was all wrong. I felt really helpless. um I also noticed I was drinking more than I had before.
Speaker: um oh Now, I was on antidepressants for a little while when I was 12 or 13. So it's not like it was a foreign idea to me. And I've been in counseling at various times in my life just to have a way to talk things through.
Speaker: um i have a priest friend who says, never trust a priest without a therapist. So, so I sought out help. and And now that includes a daily dose of Zoloft. um That's starting 2022. I'm still on it today. and I track my alcohol consumption and I've been gradually reducing it. i I don't want to get to the point where I can never have alcohol again.
Speaker: You know, I know lots of people in recovery and I know what an absolute that is. and I don't want that for me. So that's, that's kind of where I am now. Okay. yeah Now, I'm aware um that some religions are very much against traditional mental health treatment, um but I'm basing that on what I experienced as a young person. I am not a young person now. so A lot of times it's fast.
Speaker: Yeah. Sure. So is that is that still a factor? um If it is, I don't know where it is. I mean, I think I've heard of such things in like the Christian Science Church and stuff like that.
Speaker: But I imagine that the um that the stigma is still very much alive in a lot of places and probably just unexamined. um It's just such a really foreign idea to me that you wouldn't want mental health treatments, that you wouldn't want psychological help. i i didn't I didn't grow up in that kind of church. I only hear about it like you hear about it. I i guess I can only assume that it's about the fear of relying on any factor other than Jesus.
Speaker: But I mean, honestly, in those circles, they make they seem to make Jesus so... psychological, right? Like a psychological crutch or something as if as if Jesus could not somehow also be present in modern medicine.
Speaker: You know, like I just don't get it. I don't get it any more than you do. So what kind of like did did your congregation know that you had sought therapy or that you had begun medication?
Speaker: you know I didn't talk about it at first because it's really, really important as a priest that I don't seek out my parishioners to lean on for support. That can create all kinds of unhealthy role confusion. i I was taught in seminary, preach from your scars, not your open wounds. um So my initial support came from my family and my non-church friends. But since settling into the diagnosis and the medication, I have mentioned it a couple times in sermons or on other occasions when I'm addressing the congregation, I want to normalize it as much as I can.
Speaker: Yes. and And when I was preparing for a sabbatical a couple of years ago, i openly told them COVID really did me in and it's time I took a break. I'm not going to be any good to you guys unless I take this time off. So, you know, all of that together, I just tried to i normal i try to normalize resting and I try to normalize getting the help that you need, whatever that looks like.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I would go so far as to say that talking about it is a way to lead by example. Hear, hear. That's exactly right. Yeah. um I think that I was raised by conservatives. And when I say conservatives, I don't mean ah fiscally minded people. I mean, my folks were a little rich. They were very judgy about, you know, again, we lived in Hazel Park, so our neighbors were getting those big old yummy blocks of government cheese and free lunches and stuff that my my family really looked down on. And another thing that they would have looked down on is mental health treatment.
Speaker: That it's people, it's it's weakness, it's whining, it's, you know, pick yourself up and and just deal with life. Life is hard sometimes, deal with it. Like, it's ah very much presented as a...
Speaker: ah ah Like a, you know, stick-to-itiveness. Like you just need to to buckle down and and try harder, which is the last thing you want to hear. um i don't know how often you talk to the the MAGA boys online. I don't do it as much as I used to now that my interest in a certain a-hole is is behind me. Yeah. um but I talk to those people a lot and one of the first insults out of their mouth after things related to physical appearance, they accuse people of being in therapy. They accuse people of taking medication. Oh, oh, is your mental health acting up? And the thing is,
Speaker: very I mean, it's it's very unusual that i don't that I encounter one of those MAGA boys and and not think, well, that guy has some things that he needs to do. like I'm sorry your dad never apologized to you, but maybe don't take that out on every stranger you encounter.
Speaker: Right. and yeah The accusation I see more is like, ah oh, that that that kid is trans. That's mental illness. Autism, mental illness. Wearing a mask outdoors, mental illness, unless they're ice. Right.
Speaker: I mean, right lately, the algorithm has been sending me to argue with Catholic dude bros, and I don't know why I bother. I really just need to quit that. No, you know, you know, it's actually pretty funny. Now, I recognize that people can feel different ways about abortion and I don't want to, like, start a whole abortion conversation. Right. um But as I understand it, the Bible says life begins at first breath. That's when life begins. So if you're making a religious argument, not only that, but in Judaism, you
Speaker: they spell out pretty clearly that the life of the mother should take precedence over anything that's forthcoming. um So I actually get a bit of perverse pleasure by telling MAGA boys that they're being very emotional when they this is babies they they're not using logic. Please use logic and not emotion in this issue. Well, the thing is that the only way to deal with the abortion issue is to use logic because it's the only way that you can straddle the divide between all these varying feelings on it. I mean, again, not to get sidetracked, but um the Bible doesn't say life begins at breath. It implies it poetically at times.
Speaker: um and I guess it depends on the translation. Maybe. and it And I guess it implies it in Mosaic Law because it definitely treats a fetus as a possession. rather than a human being in that context. But no, I don't want to get bogged down in abortion conversation. I mean, nobody likes abortion, right? I mean, can we at least start there?
Speaker: yeah I mean, it seems like a lot of the people that scream about it are doing the least to forward the ideas that we know prevent abortion. Things like affordable child care and WIC and SNAP and and consent you know holding fathers accountable for child support.
Speaker: yeah yeah lots Lots of different things, affordable housing, just you know better schools and more plentiful schools. There are so many things like that, but the people that are wagging their fingers and screaming in your face outside of Planned Parenthood are not supporting those ideas. So that really makes you question, are you really trying to prevent these things or are you trying to shame people and divide the the populace in general?
Speaker: Are you trying to make yourself feel feel better by making other people feel worse? Well, and you know, if we're all screaming at each other, we don't necessarily notice what the real bad guys are doing. the The wage thieves, the landlords buying up all the houses, you know, all that there. But again, we're trying to not get super tangenty if we can help it. Exactly. So I turn it back over to you.
Speaker: All right. I'm looking at my list because for those of you who don't know, I have a list. I prepare for these interviews. um So what advice would you give to an adult, maybe someone with a family who is reticent to seek treatment, but they are experiencing, as you mentioned, physical symptoms? I don't know if you know that book, The Body Keeps the Score. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't read it. no of it Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. so So what advice do you give someone like that? good question. I mean, in general, i I try not to give too much straight up advice because so much advice isn't even asked for. I think I'd first just want to dig under the surface with them a bit about the source of that hesitation.
Speaker: I mean, I don't know what's best for others, but I'm interested in helping people examine things that have gone unexamined up till now, right? To help them surface those things that maybe if you took a look at it, you might think differently. um I can only tell my own story.
Speaker: that's That's what I do. I tell them my own story. I can't preach to them about what their story should be. um But if they did want to hear my perspective, I'd point something really specific out, which is the timing of when I went on medication. I started on Zoloft and then Russia invaded Ukraine and the whole world got objectively worse overnight.
Speaker: Yet my mental state actually improved. um I knew there was no point letting Putin and Trump and Netanyahu and Hamas dictate how functional I get to be in my own sphere of influence. I'm i'm sure the medication made that understanding a lot more possible.
Speaker: So I would just offer them my own story. Well, yeah, I mean, so often mental health treatment is just about allowing you the tools you need to have a logical reaction to things rather than a visceral or emotional one. I ah have had a bunch of EMDR because of trauma and CPTSD, it's called. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And basically what's that, what that does is make it so I don't have that fearful flinch reaction when somebody touches me. Cause I'll tell you what, when I first met H, he was my first good boyfriend in a very long time. yeah And anytime he would go to put his arm around me or move in for a kiss, I would flinch because my experience was, holy shit, don't lunge at me. yeah yeah What are you doing? This is terrifying. And it really hurt his feelings. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, because he's a good guy. And I talked to my therapist about it. And she's like, oh, well, if you can stay sober for three days straight, then you can have one of these treatments. And I was like, well, that sounds terrible.
Speaker: ah Is it worth it? Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well, and, you know, I had to decide, do I want to risk losing this guy that I could conceivably build a life with because I really like weed? Or could I take a little break and see how it goes? And yeah, I did the second thing. I took the break and I mean, it's it's an interesting therapy because the main side effect that you get like immediately is that you are exhausted. And you just want to sleep it off and let your brain like figure everything out that just happened. yeah But then, yeah, like my flashbacks went down, my hallucinations went down, and I was able to...
Speaker: you know not be a friggin basket case every time i went on a date with this guy you were we didn't take long you were able to normalize him putting his arm around you yes yes which you know shouldn't shouldn't have to be a thing but that's the world we live in right yep start from where yeah we or you wish you were Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. We actually, we met for the first time after talking online, I met him at a dating website before smartphones. Yeah. And then we met in June and then i ended up realizing, wow, i I think I actually have a drug problem. I think I'm going to go to a place and see about that. um And, you know, I reached a different conclusion ultimately, but then H and I got back together to see each other again in July.
Speaker: By October, we were living together. And I don't know who you were talking to from Olivet at that time, but I'm not going to list a bunch of names, but there were a lot of people that were like...
Speaker: You met some guy at a website in June and you're moving in with him in October. What the hell is wrong with you? Are you ever going to get your shit together? And I'm like, no, no, you don't get it. This is the one. They're like, yes, of course. We met the last one who was the one. And he he wasn't. He was not the one.
Speaker: Well, so you got to be right about this one. ah Well, and you know, that's, that's kind of my advice for all these like male loneliness epidemic in cell people online that are sure the reason they're not having girlfriends is because they're too short and not rich.
Speaker: Like, dude, that's, that's not it. Work on yourself, man. yeah That isn't it. anything um Okay. So,
Speaker: Oh, I have another religion question for you. ok oh Yeah. So how do you combat the narrative about Christians who behave as if they've never heard of Jesus Christ?
Speaker: You know, the the kindness, the welcoming foreigners, not coveting things, you know, all that there. Combat the narrative? How could I do that? I mean, I'd be lying. I don't combat um and I just have to acknowledge that becoming a Christian doesn't automatically eliminate our human tendency to sin.
Speaker: I mean, to put it in non-Christian speak, I mean, by sin, I just mean the fact that we're not perfect and we tend toward self-preservation instead of risky, self-giving love. I mean, even those kinds of Christians would have to admit that's true.
Speaker: They just have a very different idea of what constitutes sin, I guess. and And I think way too often it comes from believing things that they've been told about Jesus instead of actually reading the man himself or about the Bible, right? Instead of doing some actual critical thinking.
Speaker: um It comes from not being able to admit that the stuff of the real world of today is stuff that God, by definition, must know about and understand and be compassionate about.
Speaker: So, i mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that I'm capable of some of the same shortcomings. i It's way too often I play it safe instead of taking risks. I avoid relationship instead of allowing myself to be inconvenienced by others.
Speaker: um That's a different set of problems from not welcoming foreigners and that sort of thing. but um i guess I guess it goes back to Jesus' thing about, you know, take the plank out of your own eye before you remove the splinter from someone else's.
Speaker: Okay. Now, I find that interesting because as as a member of Satanic Temple, you know, The tenants, they're like 12, is it 12, 10? Damn it, I'd have to look. But the thing is that there aren't rules that are commonly broken.
Speaker: Because one of the things that struck me about Christianity is that you'd meet a Christian and they live with their boyfriend and they're not married. And we know people aren't supposed to do that. And the dominant thinking seems to be, yeah, well, we just, we do that.
Speaker: Like, wait, do you joined a church that says you're not supposed to do that. Why are you doing it? well who made that Who made that rule? Right. I mean, it's not, not living together before you're married is a time honored Christian tradition.
Speaker: um It's not, It's not a rule, except in those traditions that make it a rule. um yeah As far as I can tell, the only rule is love.
Speaker: Love one another. Love one another. Love God. Love each other. that you love God by loving each other. um If there are other rules than that, there are rules that we have interpreted as being necessary for that first thing.
Speaker: and Well, there's the Ten Commandments. like That's pretty hard and and fast. And what I notice about the Ten Commandments, first of all, I think some of them are absolute crap. you know I'll respect my parents when my parents become respectable. right but um But there is not, or or maybe i'm I'm interpreting it wrong, but um In the the Satanic Temple Tenants, one of the things says that the use of logic is inherently important, that it should take precedence over feelings or or beliefs. And also that if you do something wrong, you have an obligation to write it to the best of your ability, to take responsibility. And and i that's not in the Ten Commandments, right?
Speaker: Well, let me translate those into biblical speak. um The ancients would not have had any concept of the first one that you mentioned, right? Use logic over feelings is a very modern um way to put it, I think.
Speaker: I'm not even sure I could come up with a parallel. Well, sure, if you're talking about people that don't know where the sun goes at night. Right. You know, exactly. So that's, of course, that's not in the Bible, right? It doesn't mean it's not a good good rule to live by.
Speaker: um As for making it right, um you know, there's an ancient, ancient tradition going all the way back and and all the way back to things Jesus said about ah repent and turn around. I mean, that that word repent just means turn around and take a different path.
Speaker: um As far as making amends, I think the later later Christian tradition really comes up with that sort of thing. But you'll find that in the confessional booth, right?
Speaker: um when When the priest tells you to to make amends. um See, they didn't tell us to make amends. They told us to say the same prayer over and over again. Just repeating the Hail Mary. guess repeating the Hail Marys is not going to fix the broken relationship with the person. No, man. I mean, have you ever said the rosary? It's enough to turn you against religion.
Speaker: if If you are easily bored, it's not a good way to spend a day. We don't we don't have that particular set of prayers in the Episcopal Church. you know There is such a thing as Anglican rosary beads, but we don't really treat them with the same centuries of time-honored tradition.
Speaker: Good. Don't. Yeah. I mean, a priest friend of mine once pointed out that he thought that AA was one of the most important theological innovations of the 20th century.
Speaker: And there you definitely find the, the, the, that making amends is super, super important. Well, the thing about AA and NA as well is that it is some of the most actionable Christian content because people talk about higher power and, you know, 99% the time in a ah group meeting, they're talking about Christianity you know,
Speaker: it's It's very hands-on. It's very like, okay, God is helping you. What's he helping you do? What kind of timeline are you on? you know it's It's a kind of of actionable ah stuff that you don't typically, that I never got from church. right you know Church would say, hey, we're having an event and it's charitable and you should bring some cans of food. but not, you know, you need to make sure your community is fed. You need to make sure people are taken care of. You know, it was about a field trip rather than a way of life. Yeah. And, you a Muslim friend once said to me that there's ah a saying in Islam that if you go to bed full and your neighbor goes to bed hungry, that's on you.
Speaker: Yeah. Just straight up. That's on you. Why did you allow that to be the case? and And I was like, whoa, that's that's putting it pretty directly. And I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: So, you know, but what I mean, hill I will die on, that's the that's the meme right now. You know, what what's a hill I will die on um is is that Jesus didn't tell us how to love. He just told us to love. And all else is interpreting our present circumstances.
Speaker: So if making amends to the people we've hurt is how we love, great. You know, make that a rule for yourself. Make that your rule of life. I mean, the rule of life is an old monastic tradition that that you have these rules that are important for you to live by personally because you know yourself.
Speaker: You've prayed through this and and you know what your program needs to be. Work your program um and don't stop. So i I think most of the quote unquote rules of Christianity um are assumed to be rules, not because they actually are rules, but because they are the rules that one particular tradition has interpreted as super important.
Speaker: I mean, United Methodists don't actually drink wine in communion to this day. And why is that? Not because Jesus didn't drink wine. It's because the Methodists were deeply involved in the temperance movement in the 19th century. That's it.
Speaker: And it's still an important part of their tradition. I'm not Methodist. I don't get it. But I see where it came from. Okay. Now, if you think back in the history, like the older history before the printing press. Yeah. And and most people couldn't read. You know, most non-rich people couldn't read. yeah Even if they did, they didn't have access to Bibles.
Speaker: There were fewer offshoots of of Christianity then. I mean, there was pretty much... Just the Catholics. And it wasn't until people got a hold of this information and looked at it and said, wait a minute, I don't see it that way. Yeah. Like I found out that the word hark in the Bible, which is usually what the angels first say when they come here. Yeah.
Speaker: that the actual translation is please stop screaming because when when people see an angel they are so bright and loud and intimidating that they are terrified so the first thing the angel has to say is for god's sake calm down I have got the world. I just need to tell you something. I've got to look that up in Greek and see if you're right.
Speaker: ah Yeah. Yeah. I don't tell me if I'm wrong because i know it so much you just believe this one, right? that That's fine. Just stick with this. Yeah, don't don't tell Satan, but I'm going against logic, in fact. You had the Catholics and you had the Orthodox, right? Those were the two main groups. And 500 years before that split, you had the Eastern the eastern Christians in like ah the the Horn of Africa and places like that. And that was an earlier offshoot. But yeah, but and mostly the printing press is a big, huge factor in the Protestant Reformation because it's what enabled the peasants to read. Yeah.
Speaker: fascinating. Yeah, it's I mean, it that's that's really where religion gets me is the history of it, because it's so tied up with psychology and sociology and anthropology, just the whole like, well, how did we get there? Well, and ask yourself, you know, is it better to have like one huge church that controls everything? Or is it better to have 30,000 different denominations that are always fighting with each other? I'm not sure which is better. And so, you know, I don't want to have to decide that. Well, and that's, I think, why the church for so long, I mean, there were money reasons and control reasons, obviously. But there's also the sense that, like, if everybody has their own interpretation, I mean, we still can't agree about the Da Vinci Code, let alone the Bible, you know? Like, there's, I mean, I don't know if you ever, like, hear people argue about
Speaker: but But like, well, and a worse movie, but still. But, you know, like there are people that don't feel as strongly about their religion as they do what happened at the end of The Sopranos.
Speaker: Right. You know, like religion is just kind of casual. But if you say that Tony didn't die, they will get up and start screaming at you. or if you yeah yeah Or if you support the New York Yankees, that's that's a bigger deal. Yeah. Well, why the hell would anyone do that? Exactly. Come on, man. Tell my brother that.
Speaker: Yeah. um So one thing that you mentioned to me, and and this is a quote, that mental illness and Christianity can be a rich subject for both critique and hope. I think we've covered a lot of the critique. um So let's move on to the hope.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Now I can say that getting help for my mental illness, not only was it life changing in that it was more manageable, but I was also able to discern how many things were not related to that and were In fact, products of things that happened to me. Right. um Or that were inherent. Like I was born with apnea, so I didn't get a good night's sleep until I started drinking. Wow. Because it like relaxed my throat and let me sleep properly. um But really, it was treated by doctors in my Mm-hmm. So to look back on that, that's one of those things that makes me really angry because it's like, oh, so I wasn't slow. I wasn't lazy. i wasn't not trying. I was pretty much insane from not sleeping. And I was autistic and I needed glasses and just, you know, so many things that were like, I'd probably be the fucking president by now. yeah if i had And would those treatments have been available to you in those years?
Speaker: Well, they didn't the thing is they didn't really know how to diagnose things like ADD or autism, particularly in girls. right But I do remember that I was so messed up at the time that they wanted to test me for things. And my mom said, no, my mom never wanted us to get treatment for anything. Well, she's a narcissist. She's a malignant narcissist. so and And it's actually me being raised by a malignant narcissist that made me think, you know what, Don Jr. is secretly a good person. And here's why. I'm sorry that didn't work out for you.
Speaker: but Yeah, me me too. And it's it's interesting because it's this is about the two-year anniversary when I finally said, oh. Are you going to put out that third book, by the way?
Speaker: I am. I am going to put out the third book. Good. Yeah, I keep saying I'm going to get it out by the midterms, but I said this like four years ago as well. Well, the thing is, when I started writing the third book, what it was supposed to be about was ah the main character, Jonathan Rowlett Jr., was going to, he had a a publishing imprint and all the books were AI.
Speaker: And he was going to accidentally bring peace to the Middle East. Oh, no spoilers. And I was... Well, I didn't do it because that's, I mean, the, the book is a satirical, it's like a dark comedy and there's nothing funny happening over there. There is, there is if there is comedy over there, it is not my job to find it. That's right. Um, that's So i I just ripped it all out and started again. And then like basically every idea that I had, they kept doing it.
Speaker: Like it got to the point where I said, all right, you know what? Space aliens. I'm just going to make space aliens come from the sky and I will be goddamned if I did not wake up on a Saturday morning. to a tweet from Big Donald and Little Don saying, if you see something up in the sky, you gotta shoot it, because we don't know what it is. Like, the you sons of bitches. You can't anything anymore for satire. Nothing's funny anymore.
Speaker: yeah no and like the first book was totally prescient because i called out the sedition yeah and the fact that that stupid relationship with kg was actually real for a time um and the like but that's that's me i'm prescient like when i was a kid my favorite things in the world were sharks and zombies and serial killers and everybody taught me that i was nuts and i was evil and then Well, right. I mean, what streaming service isn't being propped up by serial killer shows and everybody's got a zombie show. It's like, you guys, I was telling you this. I was telling you this in the 70s. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: But then, you know, I make a big public blunder, like thinking Don Jr. is secretly a good person. And then it's like, oh, that's why no one takes me seriously. who Whoops. Would it help if I said I don't really believe in the binary of good people, bad people?
Speaker: Yeah. um and And I think that for the most part, we can't necessarily divide people into good or bad. Exactly. He enlisted his daughter in helping him defend and protect pedophiles. I know. That's bad. That's not bad.
Speaker: I there's no there's not good that that can outweigh that kind of bad. Yeah. And, you know, from a Christian take, it's no matter how evil I find someone to be, at least I need to hold out the logical possibility, even if I don't believe it myself, that there is redemption somewhere.
Speaker: um It's not up to me. I. I certainly don't dispute that people can change. um And I think that, you know, it's it's kind of like with with alcoholics or or drug users that when they go through making their amends, the fact that you have changed and become a better person is is great. And congratulations, sincerely.
Speaker: it does not obligate anyone that you have hurt to forgive you condemn continue contact with you like that's right people are still allowed to be like well you know what f you though yeah you burned all your bridges with me right yep well yeah so back to mental illness and and and christianity i'm just really sorry that happened to you i wish that that had been available to you in in those years i wish that your mom had not been inattentive to you and to what needs are.
Speaker: And that's ah that's the thing is that the the question becomes, all right, what did I learn? What can I do with it? And that's kind of why I'm here doing this show is to say,
Speaker: Y'all, these are things that happen. They happen to lots and lots of people and you don't have to be stuck there. right If somebody had told me at 15 that I would be married to someone like H, I would not have believed it. I would have said, oh, you know what I would have said? I would have said, oh my God, did I lose weight? Is that how I was able to find a man?
Speaker: Because that was hammered into me so hard that not only will you not find a man, but that you should settle for any man who would have you because look at you, you're hideous. So, which, you know, I mean, again, raised by a narcissist, that's what happens. They'll say absolutely anything if they think it will influence your behavior in the ways that they want.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's something that like, we know how therapy can help that, but what, what can ah a religion or a church community do for someone in that position? Yeah. Um, you know, i mean,
Speaker: we We came off of criticism of religion and believe me, I'm the first to criticize the church for its historical shortcomings, current shortcomings. And right now that looks like preaching against Christian nationalism. you know To some degree, it's about helping older folks who grew up in the era of Christendom to understand that everything has shifted in a few short decades and that Certain expressions of religion that claim to be based on Jesus are actively destroying people's lives.
Speaker: You know, um it feels really virtuous to insist that we Christians need to rise above our petty differences and all get along. But but these days, that's like saying lions and lambs should just lie down together. OK, lambs, open up the door to your pen and let the. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Speaker: So, yeah, I think we've covered my impatience with people who think you can say, well, just trust in Jesus and expect everything to be magically fixed. I'm not I'm not saying miracles don't happen, but I've never seen a miracle happen through willful ignorance. So, yes, count me as totally on board the mental health assistance train.
Speaker: um So one crucial piece of Episcopal theology in particular, and I think this is Christian theology in general, but it's an area we really emphasize, is that it's incarnational. It's it's about the core Christian belief in Jesus being rooted in the fact of his existence as a human being, flesh and blood, just like us.
Speaker: You know, that means Jesus breastfed and spit up and Jesus peed and pooped and farted. And Jesus played wild games with his friends at recess and he grew hair in private places and he sought out a alone time in the shower and and he got angry. Right? Don't you? Did he hang out with prostitutes? There seems to be some debate on that.
Speaker: Is there debate? I mean, okay, so prostitutes aren't technically officially mentioned in the New Testament, but of course he hung out with prostitutes. That's exactly what he hung out with. I think that the question is that whether Mary Magdalene was a prostitute or whether that is slander because she was the close confidant.
Speaker: The fact of the matter is there's no mention in the Bible of Mary Magdalene being a prostitute. That is a conflation of Mary's and of several different characters, including two people named Mary. That conflation was made by a pope who should have known better.
Speaker: you know, he should have been reading his Bible. But I don't I mean, i while I assert that fact, I don't want anyone to interpret that as saying, well, Jesus wouldn't hung out with prostitutes. That's of course he did.
Speaker: Of course he did. That's who he would hang out with. um So that's the that's the thing is that Christians are supposed to believe that there's no place in your life that's too hopeless for God to show up.
Speaker: um That's how it works. and and that And that God doesn't show up and magically wave a wand and fix it. um So I think that it's really strange that churches that speak the most loudly about Jesus can be so offended by the notion that we might feel something and then and then Jesus would understand it, right?
Speaker: um Mental illness is a real thing. it's It's human life. It's not demon possession. um you know yeah There are There are cases in the Bible where Jesus is casting out demons and now we think, well, maybe that was epilepsy, for instance. But it's just it's one of those things that can happen to us in the world. So I hope you hear in my words both the critique and the hope, right? Because I do think that that the Christian narrative lends itself very well.
Speaker: to being in that space of acknowledging that mental health issues are very, very real and just a part of who we are and not even necessarily a part of ourselves that needs to be excised and cut out and thrown away. Would be me if if I didn't have this the the the set of characteristics that led me into anxiety and depression under certain circumstances?
Speaker: I want to care that much, you know? Okay. Yeah. I mean, that that makes a lot of sense. It does. um Now, I know that during COVID, you were streaming sermons online. And as someone who does not go out much, I'm curious to know, is that still going on?
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. um I'd say the one thing about COVID that's been really good for churches is that we were forced to put ourselves out there online more than before and to actually learn that technology. Yeah.
Speaker: So Good Shepherd held Sunday services exclusively on Zoom and then streaming those onto Facebook and YouTube for a year and a half. And now that we have those systems, it's not that huge a lift to keep them going.
Speaker: I'm really grateful to the parishioners who take their turn in the organ loft working the video equipment. So we stream our services live on YouTube and then they're banked there. And you can find us by searching on Good Shepherd Federal Way. We're really easy to find.
Speaker: And then every week we extract the audio of the sermon and put it on our website, which is goodshepherdfw.org. Or you can find those sermons on Spotify. Just look up Good Shepherd Federal Way. By the way, Shepherd, I'm going to tell your listeners, it's spelled S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D. Not to be offensive, but I've learned that most people don't know how to spell Shepherd. I find that out every day in this job. So...
Speaker: Yeah, I don't even think I spelled it right in your in your question. Okay. Yeah, I would spell it Shepherd, like E-R-D. That's right. S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D.
Speaker: So there's no A in the word Shepherd. no A in the word Shepherd, yeah. I always have to make people make sure people know that. It's kind of like definite. A lot of people want to put an A in definite and there there isn't one. It's irresistible to put an A in definite. Well, you know, I'm a person who no one can spell my first name. It's, I mean, some people can. Didn't we all learn that in elementary school?
Speaker: Well, we all learn about apostrophes too, and nobody does those right. you You'd think, I mean, yeah. i know We learn about pronouns too, but there are people that still can't grasp it.
Speaker: Yeah. They, them, and they're our singular pronouns. It's like, you understand it fine. You're being a dick. I told you about my dad and and how pedantic he could be, and that's where I got that. But, you know,
Speaker: Bless him. He didn't live past 2020 and he never had to engage the question of singular they them because he wouldn't have been able to handle it. he would have He would have wanted to mean well. He would have wanted to love everybody and he still wouldn't have been able to wrap his mind around that.
Speaker: yeah All right. Now you mentioned spending time with your adult daughter and I was shocked to realize that she is an adult. Yes. Now I talk to a lot of people who are no contact from their parents because I am also that and that's something that we share. And one of the things I notice is that the parents who talk about this,
Speaker: pretend to have no idea why it happened, why there's an estrangement. And I think that, I mean, from my experience, like, bitch, you know what you did, um is my take on that. And I think that's that's true of of most, in most situations. And the parents know full well what they did. um So what I'm wondering is, as a ah church leader, you you must have encountered estrangements between parents and children. So ah ah how how do you tackle that? Because I'm sure people come to you for advice on on both sides.
Speaker: Honestly, I think so much of my work with people who are going through things, especially things I don't have firsthand experience with, it it it has a lot more to do with holding a space and letting them just feel what they feel and express what they're going to express, process what they need to process. And so much of the time, I find that that's all that's asked of me.
Speaker: um I am i'm in no position to give people direct advice about things that they know far more about than I do. I just think it's really the the art of listening is really underrated.
Speaker: um But I've certainly learned in my 12 years as a priest that just listening is usually 90 percent of what needs to happen. um So yeah, I'm constantly, I'm highly aware of lots of people's fragile family situations or broken family situations. And honestly, it's just about loving them through it and letting it be messy and helping them allow themselves to let it be messy.
Speaker: Do you have um training in psychology? Is that part of of seminary school? Not enough. um yeah it's It's one reason why it's it's really kind of ah an important thing for clergy, at least in my tradition, that if someone wants to set up time to talk with you privately about something, if they seek out counseling from me, um I'll meet with them three times. But after that, I'm referring them to someone who's actually trained in this.
Speaker: I see. yeah Because I know I hate you up for advice, especially if I'm having some sort of religious issue, like I need you know a different perspective. Because i I try to always make sure that i have that I'm in contact with lots of people who see issues differently than I do. I don't know how often do you listen to my show. I had a guy come on here and defend Elon Musk.
Speaker: Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. um So I think that's really important. and And the thing is that it's important to me to remind myself to be respectful to people that I disagree with, even when I disagree strenuously. Obviously, some things are deal breakers. Right. But many things are not.
Speaker: yeah you know Yeah, exactly. Especially if there's a way that that if I meet someone I disagree with and there's a way that I can grow just by learning more about them, I don't want to burn that bridge.
Speaker: Right. Right, exactly. um We're just past the halfway point of the show, so I need to take just a short little thing here um and mention our donors, our biggest donors. I won't say what amount that is because you have to go to the site and find out, but it's probably something most of you can work into your budget.
Speaker: So special, special thanks to Brianna Simmons, Lowkey, Nemu Ravenfall, and Allison Huff. So thanks to all of you for giving us money to keep the lights on around here. Because, you know, we use that, we pay for the the web, the service and the page where we have our transcripts. You know, Zencaster, they charge us fees. And sometimes guests don't have headphones or a microphone. So we have to get one and send it out.
Speaker: And then that's a free gift they get to keep. Plus, I would really like to be earning enough money that I can send gifts to the people who are guests on the show. And maybe one day to actually offer to pay people.
Speaker: Because, you know, people give us their time and they're so generous with their stories. And that's something that I really want to acknowledge in some kind of lasting way. I mean, even if you just get a mug with our logo on it, like, you know, like they do on Fallon.
Speaker: Well, not Fallon, because I wouldn't have Trump on, but, you know, other shows where they give out mugs. So yeah, that's the deal with that. But listen, I want to talk about music because I know that in college you were in the music program, yeah that you are in fact a musician and you are a rabid fan and you love Weird Al. So so mean we need to talk about all of that. Oh, wait, first I got to ask you, did you know I'm taking drum lessons? I mean, I'm doing it on YouTube now, but I'm learning the drum like I always wanted to when I was a kid. I didn't know that. Kudos to you.
Speaker: H bought me a practice pad because it was one of those things like remember when I got really sick in 2022. Yeah. And I thought I was going to die and then I didn't die. And then I last year i had all that heart stuff going on and you know, they did like surgeries on the inside of my heart, which is insane. um And I didn't die.
Speaker: And every time I have one of these things and I don't die, I'm like, oh, I'm going to start a magazine. Oh, I'm starting a podcast because I didn't die. I'm getting that puppy because I'm alive. And so, yeah, this this is my latest thing, because I remember that I wanted to take drums in school, like an elementary school.
Speaker: And you needed to have your own practice pad. And my mom didn't want to buy me one. So I got it into my head that a practice pad must be this really expensive specialty item.
Speaker: one wood with some rubber on it Yeah, it it is it is not. It is not. Well, I had to take the flute and it turned out she thought flute was more, you know, girly or whatever. And I wasn't very good at it and blah, blah, blah, blah. blah You know, i don't i don't really music very well, but drums so far, I just have, you know, I'm learning the snare basically. Yeah. Oh, that's cool.
Speaker: yeah so Yeah. So I said I wanted to talk to you and then I immediately started talking about myself. That's right. Well, it reminds me to mention my goddaughter who just graduated from high school, that she came to play drums, not through the usual route of the the school band, but by joining a what's called the Rain City Rock Camp, which is, yeah, it's a summertime camp for Girls and historically oppressed minority genders. that's that's I don't know if that's the exact wording, but that's who's welcome at the camp. And she learned to play the drums at that camp. The way it's structured is that all the kids show up on Monday, they all pick an instrument, and then they start writing their own songs as they learn to play these instruments. And at the end of the week, they put on a concert. And it's... ah
Speaker: That is fantastic. Right? I mean, it's not like she became great on the drums in one week, but that but the kids put on a spirited show that was a lot of fun. And then she came back to the camp the next year and the next year and the next year. And and after several years of that and practicing on her own, she got to be pretty good. So, yeah, I mean,
Speaker: When people take on new things that you might be great at or that you might suck at and you do it just for the joy of learning. i mean, isn't that what life's for? That's the point. And I think I was probably almost 40 before I started to appreciate the joy of sucking at someone. at so Because, well, when I wrote my first book, when I finished A Stabbing for Sadie and started sending it out,
Speaker: my plan was to wallpaper my bathroom with rejection letters. And that was how I looked at it. So every time I got a rejection letter, I'd be like, oh, this is going to go right over the sink. and And i i I failed. I did not get enough rejection letters to wallpaper my bathroom. I ended up getting an acceptance probably about seven months in. So it's like, oh, did I fail at failing or did I actually succeed at something? I don't know. It depends on my mental health, how I'm going to frame that today. Yeah, but you um you framed it in such a way that you could call it success either way. So that's a good way to go. i You're further along on that than I am. I do not like trying things that I might suck at.
Speaker: um I really, really don't. and And I think that's one of the ways that I probably still keep myself a little too safe much of the time. Well, and I think that you actually have a better reason to do that than most people because you are a leader in your community. you can't necessarily, first of all, you don't want to feel like a failure because you have an obligation to go out into your congregation and lift people up. And if you do that from a place of feeling like a failure,
Speaker: Not only will people notice that eventually, but you're just not going to be on the top of your game. You know, it it can be discombobulating to feel like, I mean, if it's just a hobby or whatever, that's one thing. Yeah, that's different. If you get into like even community theater where other people are depending on you to do your part and then you have stage fright and it's like, oh no, I'm terrible at everything and everyone will hate me now. Dang it.
Speaker: Honestly, a lot of my job is about helping people try things and not be great at them, um but to do them with heart. um You know, I'm constantly um giving people patience and forgiveness for little things that really aren't that big a deal, but that feel like a big deal to them.
Speaker: um And I think the issue is that Christianity is really, it really should be accustomed to talking about failure. I mean, look who we follow, right? i mean, remember the Metallica song, the God that failed?
Speaker: Yes. You remember that song? Yeah. That that song i mean it made a big impression on me. i'll Follow the God that failed. And I've used that in sermons. I've i've talked about how Jesus by all all appearances look to have failed. that and that was that that That failure was final. That ended in death. Right? And I think the important part of the story is that even failure that ends in death doesn't need to be failure.
Speaker: I mean, look at Martin Luther King Jr. Right? Did he fail at the age of 39? is Was he a failure? So I just have to say no, because, well, what what is the expression that no one truly dies until the last person has spoken your name or yeah when you die, when you're forgotten? That's why I've always been so serious about like, I don't have any kids. I have a body of work. That's what I leave behind.
Speaker: So I hope that enough of it matters. you know that that's like that's That's my hang up, my intellectual vanity. I want to matter. I want to leave what I've touched better than I found it.
Speaker: and i'm helping to vanity i think but you know i think that's just being human, right? but then what is what Is it? Because a lot of people are human by protecting themselves. Like their humanity is, you know, it's like Nazis. Nazis love their kids, but they don't love kids in general. They don't care about people in general. They care about their people. and that is um That's also very human. You're right.
Speaker: um Yeah. Yeah. And and the fact of the matter is that we're all, all of the stuff by all of us is going to be forgotten eventually. i Oh, God damn it.
Speaker: Huh? Okay. Did you know dogs actually do eat homework? Millie has devoured some of my book notes and I am horrified. ah Yeah. She loved delicious book notes. Can you hear her She's kind of growly right now. Dear publisher, this is my dog. Here's what she did.
Speaker: Okay, where were we? Music career or Music, you were going to tell us about your musical history. oh Okay, so yeah, my degree from Olivet was music theory, music history, you know, composition.
Speaker: I got that degree with no plan for what to do with it because my parents always drilled into me learning is for the joy of learning. It's not for job training. You figure that part out later.
Speaker: um And I also have that. and That was expensive for that. My goodness. Because I think all of that was $10,000 a year when we when we started. $10,000 or $10,500 or something like that. Yeah. So expensive. Whoa. Yeah. um and but But the thing is, I think you just trust that what you're learning in college, regardless of your major, is stuff that you're going to be able to apply when it comes to job training. It's not like you're starting from zero after that.
Speaker: um And as it turned out, I also had all that interest in pop music and radio and our experience together at W.O.C.R. I mean, we had that radio experience together and that's what kept me employed into my 30s.
Speaker: So but for the music composition part, for me, composing since college has really been situational. When there's a need, I write something. And in my world, that's been mostly within the church.
Speaker: This summer, my musician asked me to write something small for framing our use of the Psalms in worship. And so I wound up writing a few different things for our cantor and our congregation to sing in and around the verses of the Psalms being spoken. So that's sort of the typical thing that I that i do these days with it.
Speaker: And and that's it gives me a place for my creative energy, for sure, when I do that. Yeah. Cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, you know, around this show, we're big believers in ah creativity as a means to, as as not just a coping mechanism, but a communication tool. Yes.
Speaker: Yes, for sure. Absolutely. So now you have always had ah rather an encyclopedic knowledge of of music and the pop charts. Are you still following the pop charts? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. And, you know, I learned at a young age not to bore people with all this talk, but I'm on an interview now. So, yeah, do I ever. um So when I was 12, I happened upon Casey Kasem, an American Top 40. And I was like, place a place where I can tape all my favorite current songs off the radio in the same four hour block. Right.
Speaker: but But after a few weeks listening, it occurred to me that if I wrote down the chart positions of all the songs and then did it again the next week and the next week, I could compare and see what things change over time and how they change. So I just started doing that every week and collecting the charts in a ring binder. And I just kept going for years.
Speaker: And um eventually that meant subscribing to Billboard magazine. So I could get the charts in the mail instead of having to listen to the radio and building spreadsheets with all sorts of chart statistics. And I guess it does for me what sports statistics do for others.
Speaker: And I only read years later that, you know thanks to the Internet, you can find there there are online communities. a lot of people in their childhood had exactly the same idea and kept notebooks, with statistics and charts and and um and have run with it in different ways. um So I've just kept that up all these years. And the most recent turn in this hobby came when my godson pointed out to me that Spotify has a thing called the Billions Club.
Speaker: And it's a playlist that they just keep adding to of all the songs that have hit one billion streams over the course of their history. And that got me really interested in comparing how big a hit song was at the time it was popular to how big a hit song it has remained.
Speaker: And if you have Spotify, you know, you can see that number for yourself. So I added a whole other section to my spreadsheets for tracking Spotify streams and putting that in conversation with all the older data through these really complex Excel formulas. And it's really, really fun. And I built hundreds of Spotify playlists that put all the songs from a really specific era in one place, all the styles, but the same slice of time.
Speaker: So you can experience that moment in time. So for instance, the summer of 1967, and my data tells me that was the best moment ever for pop music, like mathematically. Right.
Speaker: So. But Spotify is in the doghouse with me right now because last year they were running recruiting ads for ice. So I unsubscribed. Yeah. Did you know that?
Speaker: I don't have Spotify, but I am ah aware me. oh Well, so I unsubscribed from premium and I took down my website. Um, but honestly I left all my playlists in it. So if you look in Spotify and look up pop music anthology, you can probably find them. I just haven't changed them in a long, long time. um I don't know what would it what it would take to convince me to get all that back up there again. Maybe once the fascists are out of power, you know, I'm imagining maybe there can be an ollie ollie auction free moment and I'll give another chance. All these corporations I don't give my business to anymore. i have no i don't know. i don't know. We'll have to. We'll see.
Speaker: ah Now here's what I wonder about the pop charts. And this is something and I have joked about. When a song from the past shows up in a really popular movie or TV show, like that Family Guy episode with the birds, and we just envisioned the trash men, like the surviving trash men waking up one day and being like, what, how many downloads?
Speaker: What? Yeah. Why? know Because it would just be sudden and huge. You know, goo goo muck is another thing. because Yeah. For a little hot minute there. Yeah. the By the cramp. Yeah. so hot Does that factor in? Well, but a whole bunch of kids. Like I ran into a kid on the bus, never saw him before. And my phone, you know, the little pop socket that goes on the phone so you could hold it, said Wednesday on it. And she was like, oh, my God, Wednesday, like the show.
Speaker: Like, well, yes, but also my name is Day. Oh my God. Do you know that song? Goo Goo Muck? Do not speak of the old magic to me, child. I was there when it written. were there when it was written. I love the Narnia reference. um And Goo Goo Muck would have been bigger if if someone hadn't had the idea of replacing it with Lady Gaga's Bloody Mary and making that the meme because that was when Bloody Mary became a pop hit.
Speaker: Did you know about that? Okay. No, no, I did not. Yeah. Like someone took the Wednesday dance and instead of Goo Goo Muck, they put in the song Bloody Mary by Lady Gaga, which was an old song. And then someone did a sped up version and that got on the radio. And so, yeah, it absolutely does. in fact Last week, Wonderwall by Oasis came back onto the top 40 because it was super popular as an unofficial FIFA World Cup anthem.
Speaker: Oh, okay. Yeah. so it's And all those Michael Jackson songs came back when the Michael Jackson movie came out. And they're huge right now. um It's a bigger factor now than ever before because, number one, streaming gives you that data.
Speaker: And number two, the current pop music scene really, really sucks right now. There's just there's not much consensus for what's what's going to be popular. So it's kind of flattened the curve.
Speaker: And a lot of older songs have come back onto the charts because there's nothing to compete them out, if you will. Now, is it that the music itself isn't as good or is it that the audience is so disparate that everybody's not, because people are doing their own thing. They're not all listening to the same radio stations. There's not Friday night videos telling people, you know, this is what's hot. Yeah, it is the latter. you know, there is great music out there. When I when i say the scene sucks, I mean,
Speaker: Part of it has to do with pop music radio programmers not wanting to take any risks. so they'd rather play the same tired old song for a year than try something new.
Speaker: And so. they Yeah, because you need the key to, you don't want people to change the dial. Is there still a dial? Right. Which is why Ella Langley's Choose in Texas has been number one for 16 weeks now. Well, see, that's really interesting because in movies,
Speaker: It's kind of the opposite is true. um Experimental films, especially like, you know, I'm a horror fan, so I watch a ton of horror. It's such an experimental genre now because it costs much, much less to make movies. There are more places you can put your movie.
Speaker: You know, people are making a movie for $20,000 and it shows up on Amazon and Tubi and Shudder and all these different places. oh yeah And it's amazing. So even if I watch something like there was a movie called Skinnamarink that a lot of horror fans were super into. I could not get into it. I thought it was slow and just it did not hold my interest.
Speaker: But I'm so glad that it was made. Yeah. You know, I'm so glad that we're taking those kinds of risks because every so often you're going to get an absolute gem. i don't know if you saw Late Night with the Devil.
Speaker: no Oh, dude, you should. Okay, thank you Because it's ah it's David Delmachian. I don't know how to say his name. um But he's... a He was in Suicide Squad. He's the guy with the bomb and the dots. yeah And he's great. He is a wonderful performer. And it's a really... Like he hosts a late night show. You know, like ah a talk show.
Speaker: He's the number two show. He's trying to be the number one show. okay And he has a girl on the show that is supposedly possessed. Okay. And, you know, hilarity ensues and also horror.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And there's a deep there's a debunker guy on there and he's a total dick like, you know, the old was his name, James Randy or something, who was a musician and became a debunker.
Speaker: umage Yeah, he was. Yeah, there's a guy, I think his name is James Randi, my friend Anthony would know, but he was a magician, like a stage magician. yeah And then he became a famous debunker. And he was and that so the guy in this movie is is based on him, just the guy who shows up and it's like, well, you dumbass ignorant peasants. Here's how you fell for that trick. Like,
Speaker: Okay, dude, calm down. We get it. How interesting. Well, because, I mean, I worked for a magician for a while, so I know, like, magician-y tricks and how a lot of it's, you know, done with lighting and, you know, little fans and stuff. And distractions.
Speaker: But, you know, it's it's like Bill Maher in Religious. It's like, okay, I don't disagree with everything you're saying. You're making some good points. You don't have to be such a dick about it. Yeah, I don't have a lot of patience with Bill Maher. I think, know, there are people in my own community that I don't have patience with. Like we have this famous Bishop, John Shelby Spong, who the stuff he wrote was really valuable to me because it was all about treating fundamentalism as an actual enemy and not just as a problem, you know, as ah as an annoyance. um
Speaker: But he could be such a jerk about it when when he was talking to people who disagreed with him that he just wasn't really making a lot of headway with anyone who didn't already agree with him, you know. Well, and see, that's the thing. We should have learned that lesson in the movie Night of the Living Dead. 1968, plenty of times. Well, you know what I'm talking about? Because there's the one guy, Mr. Cooper, and he's the one that says, this is bullshit. There's too many doors and windows. We need to go in the basement. But he is such a flaming a-hole that nobody listens to him. And then it turns out he was right. That that was the place to go for safety. Yeah. So...
Speaker: Yes, it doesn't matter how right you are if absolutely no one likes you or respects you or will listen to you it's also true that no matter how certain you are, it doesn't make you right. Well, yeah, there's that. Yeah. um So you have a podcast with your daughter. Tell me about it. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I guess you could say that's what brought me back on the air. um So starting when she was seven,
Speaker: We would record a fake radio show and then send it around to our family and friends. And we used to bring her elementary school friends and her cousins on there as guest stars. And it was really quirky and random and silly and it had lots of sound effects. and i think we recorded about 20 episodes over the years, but they were only for the people we knew. Right.
Speaker: So then in 2020, with the whole world shut down and and Sarah was now in high school, I had a new idea. um Church was on Zoom. There was no programming specifically for the kids in our congregation. So Sarah and I sat down and created Bible stories for snarky people.
Speaker: um And it was inspired actually by Rick Riordan's books for kids based on Greek mythology. i you know She had been reading those and she was really into those. And I thought, okay, these are really,
Speaker: they're presented in a way that's really easy to absorb um for kids, but is also like actually relaying what we know of the mythology fairly accurately. So I thought, why doesn't anyone do this with biblical stories, right?
Speaker: Probably because people think the Bible is really precious and boring and shouldn't be messed with. So we decided to mess with the Bible. um And the pattern was that I would read directly from the Bible,
Speaker: And Sarah would interrupt me with snarky comments and questions. And of course, we put in lots and lots of sound effects. um We were imagining an audience in the 10 to 12 year old range, you know old enough to know about sex and violence in the Bible, and also old enough to be respected for their ability to apply their own critical thinking. What I really wanted to do was bring seminary level learning to a younger crowd.
Speaker: um So we did like three dozen of these episodes or something. There there were two that I put a parental advisory warning on. um And one was the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
Speaker: not so much yeah Not so much for Sodom and Gomorrah as for the scene after that when Lot's daughters get him drunk and rape him. Yep. Yeah, do you remember that? there was also There's also the story of the rape of Dinah. And on that episode, Sarah just blew me away. She noticed that Dinah, who was the victim, had no speaking role at all in the story or in the whole Bible.
Speaker: So she insisted when she noticed that, that she go off by herself and rewrite the story from Dinah's perspective in first person. and so And she did that and she brought it back and we just hit record and she read it cold and then we put music under it. There were no edits at all. And it was really gripping and raw. And I was a very proud dad.
Speaker: so Wow. Yeah, it was neat. It was really neat. That is amazing. Yeah, we did a few dozen episodes of this. um We stopped when she graduated from high school. She's been in college. It's just been too hard to do. But um all of these are still on all the main podcast platforms, Bible Stories for Snarky People. And every now and then I like to go back and put one on just for nostalgia.
Speaker: Wow. I should listen to that with age. I bet he would love that. I bet so. I bet so. All right. So we're actually nearing the end of our time. And so this is the point where I ask if there's anything that you wanted to discuss that we did not get to.
Speaker: Oh, you know, gosh. We covered some good ground, I think. have. I mean, there were there were things that I prepared for that we didn't quite touch on, but I don't know that I need to add anything else back in.
Speaker: um
Speaker: Gosh. Okay. Well, that that's okay. It's cool if we covered it. um I also, i like to give guests an opportunity to ask me a question if they have one. So if you do, now is the time for that.
Speaker: Oh, gosh. I didn't prepare for that either. um Something to ask you. What is your biggest hope from from this podcast? Oh,
Speaker: Well, um I mean, on the one hand, I'd kind of like to support myself with it, but I don't know how realistic that is. The the the main thing is is to to grow the audience because I think that so much of the information and perspectives that we showcase here... really are helpful to people. yeah I mean, i don't i don't get a ton of mail, but when I get it, it's always so moving to hear from people. We had a guest on recently with a stutter and it was difficult for him to to just show up and do it. It was kind of a difficult edit because I didn't want to hide that he had a stutter, but I also didn't want it to be uncomfortable for for listeners. So, you know, we we kind of struck a balance there. a little bit And then i I immediately, like within a day or two of the episode, I heard from someone that said, my daughter has been putting off speaking publicly for you know X amount of times and now she's going to do it.
Speaker: and wow Wow. I mean, there there is no greater gift than that to find out that someone heard what you did and that it helped them in, you know, some positive way. You know, I have a ton of intellectual vanity. So I think that I am powerful enough to go around changing lives good and and helping people yeah to do.
Speaker: You know, it can't all be about spooky soaps, man. You got to do more tangible things. Although we do help people with the soaps because, you know, we do the giveaways in the in the wintertime. We do the helping families. right And one year, like at the height of COVID, we sent out, I think, 50 some boxes, which for us is that that's a lot. yeah And yeah, last year, I think we only did like 30 boxes.
Speaker: Which is, i mean, in a way it's nice because it means that the people in my circle don't know tons and tons of families that are struggling. You know, there there were fewer struggling families. I have a feeling this year will be a big year too. Because basically what we do with that is we... um People will tell us, you know, my friends can't afford to buy anything for their kids. And so we find out something about their kids and then we get a bunch of stuff together from the shop.
Speaker: Right. um Kids, kids love our soaps. Like people say, oh, my God, what kid wants soap? But when you hand a kid a soap that looks like a gem with a skull inside, it smells like raspberries, you know, like everybody, everybody's down with that. they might just never want to use it. It might be.
Speaker: They might want to keep There's that. but But they smell so good. And, you know, kids don't care. And parents tell me, like, oh, my kids are scrubbing themselves. They want to take baths now. Like, yes. That's right. That's me making your kid less smelly. Woo-hoo. Woo-hoo. right, man. So it is time for the Madlib. I hope you are ready for this. Okay. All right. um Looks like we're going to start with some adjectives. I need one, two, three, four, five adjectives. Five adjectives. Oh gosh. Okay. The question is, do I just go for random or do I go for stuff that's kind of related to who I am?
Speaker: um Okay. and And the stuff that I'm involved with every day. Let's see adjectives. Talk about holy. Okay. All right. um How about slimy? Okay.
Speaker: Oh, I'm so sorry. Stop it. No, Millie, no, I need that one. don Don't chew up my nose. God damn it. All right. Sorry. So we got holy and s slimy. All right.
Speaker: Okay. How about um belated? That's probably not going to work well, but we'll try it out. And two more. Two more. um ah Happy.
Speaker: and um unfortunate.
Speaker: All right. So I need some singular nouns. One, two, three, okay four. Four. Okay. Playground.
Speaker: Building. Walrus. walrus And, uh, oh gosh. Um, how about forest?
Speaker: Okay. And now we need some plural nouns. Looks like one, two, three, four, five, six. Goodness. Gosh, they're not all grouped that way, right? You're just giving them to me in sets. that's right Six plural nouns. Okay.
Speaker: Books, uh, movies. um
Speaker: Cutting boards. I go somewhere random here. um
Speaker: Airplanes.
Speaker: Children's writing projects, if I may get that specific. And podcasts.
Speaker: all right uh we have person in room and that's always the guest and i need a number number 23. all right so this is called that's classified information okay all right got junk sell your unwanted stuff in our holy classified section Today's slimy deals include a baby grand playground previously owned by legendary pianist, Reverend Josh. Oh, Reverend Josh belated hands. Oh, Hara. It did work. Asking 2000 books or best offer.
Speaker: asking two thousand books or best offer A 23 piece collection of rare movies, finely crafted from ceramic porcelain and gold plated cutting boards. so Horror movies, I'm guessing. Right. A cage, a feeding bowl and a hand knitted building for a pet walrus. Hmm.
Speaker: o A happy mini fridge perfect for holding bottles of airplanes. A used pickup forest with 100,000 children's... ah what What is this? Writing projects? Writing projects. Yes, I can't read my own writing. And unfortunate bumper sticker saying, Honk, if you love podcasts. Ha ha ha ha.
Speaker: Wow. okay Oh yeah. Nothing beats the irreverence of a Mad Lib. I'm such a fan. Yeah. I remember my brother and me making a pop songs into Mad Libs. Like we would just take all the lyrics to a song and remove certain words and then do a Mad Lib. And I remember doing can't fight this feeling by REO Speedwagon.
Speaker: And that's what we did for our our wedding. Actually our wedding favors were little Mad Lib books that were love songs. there were love songs the The line I'll never forget was you're a leech in the smelly socks on a cold dark night.
Speaker: My goodness. Well, Josh, I am so glad that we could do this so that you could give us your time today. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. It is an honor and all my best to your audience. And I'll look forward to the recording so I can increase the size of your audience.
Speaker: Right on. And then um we'll have links in the description for how to find the church and how to find the podcast and all that there. right ah Hopefully you'll have a link tree so we can just use the one link.
Speaker: I don't think I have link tree, but... um No, i'm I'm making you get one. You don't have a choice. Ah, okay. All right. You'll have to teach how to... You have lost your autonomy, sir. Sorry.
Speaker: All right. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next week.
