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The Business of Beauty Content with Gloss Angeles Host Kirbie Johnson
218 Plays2 years ago
Our next guest: Kirbie. Frickin. Johnson.
If you’re in or adjacent to the beauty industry, you know Kirbie:
Co-host of the chart-topping beauty podcast Gloss Angeles. Producer, writer, West Coast beauty editor and frequent contributor to little ‘ol outlets like Allure. Beauty soothsayer who shoots from the hip when it comes to marketing terms like “reef safe sunscreen” and “clean beauty.” Writer of the fantastic (and perfectly named) Ahead of the Kirb newsletter.
I was so thrilled to talk to Kirbie. I’ve been listening to her and co-host Sara Tan spill the tea on beauty products, brands and trends for nearly three years now.
Our convo covered:
- How SEO impacts the beauty brand product decisions 📈
- The power (and often the necessity) of a Founder’s Story for female-owned beauty brands
- Why Kirbie got into content - and how its changed across her career
- What being the only journalist allowed BTS at Euphoria did to her TikTok algo ✨
- How TikTok, Youtube and Instagram all create different communities and require different content.
LINKS
Subscribe to the Content People newsletter here. https://meredithfarley.substack.com/
Find Kirbie... everywhere:
Her substack: https://kirbie.substack.com/
Her website: https://kirbiejohnson.com/
Her TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kirbiejohnson/video/7254257226972630318?lang=en
Her Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kirbiejohnson/?hl=en
The Gloss Angeles Site: https://www.glossangelespod.com/episodes-blog
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Transcript
Introduction to Content People Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Hi and welcome to Content People. I'm your host Meredith Farley. I'm a former chief product officer turned chief operating officer turned CEO and founder. My agency is called Medbury. At Medbury we work with founders, execs, and companies who want to tell their stories and grow.
Purpose and Focus of the Podcast
00:00:21
Speaker
But Content People is not about me or Medbury, it's about the creative leaders and professionals that we interview every week.
00:00:28
Speaker
We'll delve into their journeys, unpack their insights, and ask them for practical advice. If you like it, please rate and subscribe.
Interview with Kirby Johnson
00:00:35
Speaker
Let's get started. Thank you so much for joining Content People. I am an enormous fan of yours. I'm so excited to pick your brain.
00:00:44
Speaker
Thank you for folks who don't know you. Could you just introduce yourself and explain a little bit about what you do? I hope it's mostly people that don't know me because I like to make new friends.
Kirby's Career Transition and Pandemic Podcasting
00:00:54
Speaker
So my name is Kirby Johnson. I consider myself a host producer writer. I
00:01:01
Speaker
Have been in the content game for many years I had my start at pop sugar and I helped to build out their beauty video vertical and grow it to what it ended up becoming which was Huge behemoth in the space, but I think we'll probably talk a lot more about like where editorial content is
00:01:20
Speaker
today because I think it's changed drastically since I left being in-house. I was at PopSugar for eight years and in 2019 decided to leave to go out on my own and actually pursue television writing. Little did I know six months later there would be a global pandemic.
Gloss Angeles Podcast Overview
00:01:36
Speaker
So how to switch gears and like really focus full time on content versus focusing on television and entertainment. Like I had initially wanted to. And when I left in July of 2019, I also launched a beauty podcast with my friend and work wife, Sarah Tan.
00:01:54
Speaker
who is now the beauty director at refinery 29. And that podcast is called gloss Angeles. It's a twice a week show where we discuss beauty industry news and then interview personalities, experts, et cetera, in the beauty space to not only introduce you to new brands, but also uncover things that you may be hearing about and a little bit more curious about in terms of.
00:02:17
Speaker
marketing terms or like new types of formulas and products and things of that nature. So I came to know you through gloss Angeles and I didn't realize you were hoping to get into TV writing. That's really interesting. But I feel like probably 2019 was maybe a great time to launch a podcast on the other side because you guys kept me company through so many long COVID walks, like
00:02:40
Speaker
Listening you and Sarah talk about beauty and it was really nurturing, nice content at the time. Did you expect the podcast to take off the way that it did? No, we didn't. And obviously nobody could have anticipated the pandemic overall, but we
Consistency and Career in Podcasting
00:02:55
Speaker
did. I had wanted to start a podcast because I knew that was a growing
00:03:01
Speaker
category in terms of content in general. My boyfriend, he worked in podcasts for a while, ended up getting a job at Spotify, but here all the time about all these different podcasts and things of that nature. So we decided to start the podcast mostly honestly, cause I was quitting my job. I said, if I'm going to quit my job, I need to have something consistent.
00:03:21
Speaker
I don't want to just quit and be a freelance writer and be like, when is my first story coming out? When is my next story coming out? I want to have something consistent every week that I can hold myself accountable to. And I initially thought I was going to do it by myself. And then Sarah and I would text each other, email each other, DM each other, anything that was going on online. We were messaging each other about it and talking about it in three different mediums.
00:03:44
Speaker
We just said, why are we not putting this out online and sharing it with people? We feel like this information may be useful to people. We certainly aren't the first like beauty editor duo to do a podcast. There's been many before us, but we thought we had a unique perspective specifically because we're both based in LA and a lot of what we would do.
00:04:05
Speaker
would be a lot different than maybe a New York editor. For instance, there's so many influencers based in Los Angeles. Oftentimes, we would be grouped into these settings with influencers versus other beauty editors or taken on trips with influencers versus a beauty editor trip.
00:04:21
Speaker
And also we have the luxury of living in Los Angeles. We're in Hollywood, California, and we get to hear about all of the things that different celebrities are doing. And we wanted to pull back the curtain on that and say, these celebrities, they look perfect, but they're not. There's a lot going on behind the scenes and educate people on that as well. So.
00:04:38
Speaker
While we didn't anticipate the podcast, we knew we wanted the podcast to be a business. We didn't want it to be a hobby. And we never outright said, if this doesn't work out in a year, we're done. But we also knew, OK, we want to do this consistently.
Influence of LA on Beauty Industry Perspectives
00:04:52
Speaker
You have to be consistent to have a successful podcast. There are so many podcasts on Apple or Spotify, whatever platform you use to listen to them, where you'll look up a name that you might have an idea for. And it probably exists.
00:05:06
Speaker
But they haven't posted in a year, two years, three years, because they gave up. So you really do have to be consistent with it. And I think that's probably why we have seen success in what we have been doing the past four years now. That's interesting. There's so much I want to unpack there. On that last bit you said, I recently for a newsletter, I write a sub stack wrote about just, so I just wrapped season one of content people. So it's only 18 episodes. I am still a noob. You are way more experienced than.
00:05:35
Speaker
How amazing. And you've had amazing people on. Yeah, I have. It's been great. It was just what I've learned, what's been working for me so far. And I looked up some stats. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's something like 90% of podcasts stop after three episodes. And then 90% of those that go on stop after 12 or something. So consistency being so imperative. But earlier on, so you said something I'm really interested to understand a little
Advice for Aspiring Beauty Editors
00:06:01
Speaker
bit more. So because you guys are in LA,
00:06:03
Speaker
If a beauty brand is doing an event or reaching out, like you're locked in with influencers versus beauty editors, and that gives you a different perspective. How do you think that brands talk to influencers and content creators differently than they would talk to a beauty editor?
00:06:18
Speaker
Oh my God, I love this question because it is truly so different. So if you are looking to get into the beauty industry and you do want to be a beauty editor, I do think you need to move to New York. I think just point blank, if you're trying to become a beauty editor and you want to work your way up the ranks in terms of maybe working at a Conde Nast or Hearst, emeritus dot dash, and you want to be an editor in chief at some point or work.
00:06:44
Speaker
specifically in like magazines or digital media as an editor, you need to move to
Contrasting Beauty Editors and Influencers
00:06:49
Speaker
New York. I think that point blank, that's where you need to be. That's a majority of where not only many of those publications are based, but also where a lot of the beauty brands are based.
00:07:00
Speaker
And you need to have a lot of FaceTime with them. All that to say, I have plenty of FaceTime with beauty brands as somebody that lives on the West coast. But I do see that there is a distinct separation between if you want to be an editor, you're in New York. And if you're an influencer and want to have that lifestyle, you're based in LA, even down to like where certain brands are starting to build out their headquarters.
00:07:23
Speaker
There's like a L'Oreal headquarters out here that just opened, I believe it's in El Segundo. And it's all of their portfolio of brands work out of this specific space. And L'Oreal is going really hard in the influencer space right now. ColourPop is based out here. They, I think, usually only focus on influencer and a really interesting perspective.
00:07:46
Speaker
in my shoes is that we were getting lumped in with influencer out here because they're not a ton of beauty editors out here. I would say there's maybe like 10 to 15 and most of them, a majority of them are freelance. So it's not like you have a ton of in-house people. Like Sarah's like maybe one of the only in-house people working in LA. That's like a beauty director role.
00:08:08
Speaker
And when you're a freelancer, you can't guarantee coverage. And every publication will say, we can't guarantee coverage.
Editorial Independence and Brand Expectations
00:08:15
Speaker
The whole point of being an editor is seeing the buffet of different brands and different offerings, and then using your expertise to decide if it's going to be hot or not, and then cover it in whatever way. However, I do think that many people would argue now it's changed a little bit where some brands will come to you, some whatever will come to you and say, Hey, we're offering this.
00:08:37
Speaker
We'll offer you so-and-so, big name celebrity, but we need to have, it's basically an expectation you're going to cover this if we're going to give you the opportunity to interview this person. But that's not how it should work, right? If you're truly an editorial platform, that's not how it should work. Anyways, I'm digressing majorly Meredith, but what I will say is when Sarah and I, when we first met, I think we met at an influencer event because
00:09:04
Speaker
Brands are like all of our influencer talent is usually based on the west coast. We're going to have a big party or big event and we can just.
00:09:14
Speaker
invite in the editors to that event. When normally in New York, when I talk to publicists and brands that work in New York, they have to separate editors from influencer because a lot of editors do not want to be lumped in with the influencer crowd. I think
Events and Interactions in LA vs. New York
00:09:34
Speaker
there's a lot of it that has to do with like maybe ego, but there's another part of it
00:09:38
Speaker
where what we want to know is so different than maybe what an influencer may care about. I want to know about the R&D behind a product. I want to know
00:09:49
Speaker
If they've had clinical trials of its skincare, like a lot of what beauty brands do is marketing. A lot of times when I go to these influencer events, I'm getting like the marketing spiel from the CMO about a product, but I'm not getting the lowdown of, okay, this is how it actually works.
00:10:11
Speaker
This is what we did. This is the research we did. This is where we saw white space. And it's my job to say, okay, you can claim that you created a brand new skincare category based on pores, but guess what? Every skincare product focuses on pores. Why is this like something that?
00:10:27
Speaker
like brands want to find a way to differentiate themselves. And my job is to be like, it's not that different. This already does exist. Or this is truly innovative. And here's why. So that's what I say when I'm talking about like the difference between, I feel like Sarah and I and our LA editors, we get so much more base time I feel with influencers than I think a New York beauty editor may. That is interesting. And my next question was, I wanted to ask you like,
00:10:56
Speaker
why and how you got started in the beauty industry and what your entry point was. But I think before we jump to that point, maybe some folks listening are not super familiar. They know content, they know marketing, but maybe they're not as into the beauty industry. And I think, right, probably know what an influencer does, but could you just define for them what a beauty editor does? I know you touched on it, but I think it's a unique role just to give them context.
00:11:23
Speaker
Totally. I'll do the two buckets. There's an in-house beauty editor, which is paid a full-time salary, help benefits the whole nine that works in-house at a publication. Their role is not only to write stories, to generate clicks.
00:11:38
Speaker
based on trends and what they see people searching for, but they're also a liaison for beauty brands and that publication and ultimately in hopes that maybe those brands will invest in that company through advertising of some nature.
00:11:53
Speaker
you really are like the face of your brand or your publication. You do have to be like a mayor or like a political figure, shaking hands, kissing babies to build these relationships. You are a relationship builder between yourself and a lot of these big beauty advertisers. More so even than I would say some of the sales teams that maybe go out and are trying to work closely with these beauty brands to generate advertising for your publication. Because at the end of the day,
00:12:23
Speaker
Like beauty brands know if you're working with the sales team, their number one priority is to get money. They want your money and that's it. When you're working with an editor, a brand is trying to build a relationship with you so that the editor keeps you top of mind to editorially place a product in their physical magazine or digital publication without any money being exchanged.
00:12:47
Speaker
So that is the role of a in-house beauty editor. There's so many more things that beauty editors do, but they get really great opportunities as well to travel the world with these brands, learn about the R and D behind these brands, educate the reader about a brand and how a product works or how an ingredient works. And then there's freelance beauty editors like myself, where I don't even consider myself a beauty editor, honestly.
00:13:13
Speaker
I don't even know what, I consider myself a writer, reporter. Like I like to build a team. I like to, I like to just educate people. I think that's like my bottom line, but so many, I guess you could let me in with that group, but the freelance editor can write for a variety of publications and relationships are really important to us because we don't have a home where we can, it's not guaranteed coverage, but it's a lot harder for me when a brand comes and says,
00:13:38
Speaker
We have this opportunity for you to interview Lady Gaga. We want you to interview Lady Gaga. We want it to be you. Could you get it placed in an allure or in a wherever? It's harder for me because I have to then, I can't just say yes. Hands down. Yes. I know that they're going to want this.
00:13:56
Speaker
I have to go to a lore and say, I don't think the brand has, or Lady Gaga, the publicist has reached out to you guys directly. But if she has, let me know. If she hasn't, do you guys want this? And then they have to decide we're going to pay Kirby's rate for her to rate this. They have to decide we just did a whole feature on Lady Gaga six months ago. I don't know if this is relevant right now.
00:14:21
Speaker
There are so many things that factor into it that I don't know because I'm not working in-house and I can't just slack my editors that I work with there and say, hey, this opportunity came. Do you guys want this? They asked me to do it. Same thing with press trips. Press trips are a big part of our job. Like we travel a lot and network with these brands and learn about new launches that are coming out long before anybody else knows about them, long before an influencer does. And we are beholden to keep these secrets and keep them embargoed so that things don't slip through the cracks.
00:14:50
Speaker
And if I get invited on an amazing trip, usually these brands are going to want to know, okay, are you going to keep us top of mind for a story in this publication? This is a huge launch. We're looking for launch coverage. And that's just not something that I can guarantee. So that's a two camps of what a beauty editor does. But for me, it's very similar. It's what is trending? What are people searching for? What are people confused about?
00:15:12
Speaker
What is Twitter talking about? What is TikTok talking about? How do we find a unique angle to cover some of these things that aren't just going to be replicated over and over?
00:15:21
Speaker
Yes. Okay. Thank you for that. And I actually now want to skip ahead a little bit and come back to the career questions. But one thing I wanted to pick your brain about, because for me, beauty is, I would say a hobby, happy space. Like during the pandemic, I love listening to the podcast. It was something that kind of took my mind off things.
00:15:45
Speaker
At time you and Sarah have this segment called data girl, which I really love. I know we need to do it more consistently. I love it. And I was, this is world colliding for me because I was working more like B2B SEO and content for a really long time.
00:16:00
Speaker
It was your podcast that shed light for me because I wasn't as familiar with beauty industry content on how much SEO and data on trending searches can impact a brand's product decisions. 100%. For folks who are listening who are like, what are you talking about? Could you talk a little bit about how brands use search data to inform product decisions, figure out what people are going to be looking for and guide the ship?
00:16:26
Speaker
It's hard because I don't work inside of a beauty brand, right? So I only can really talk about where I come from as a beauty editor, but I will say that I don't have to work inside of a beauty brand to know that these people that are making the decisions on product development
00:16:43
Speaker
are looking to see what people are talking about. For instance, I'll give you an example. Before the pandemic or maybe even just 2020 in general, one of the biggest products out there in the beauty space was a chemical exfoliator. You could not get online without hearing about how you needed a chemical exfoliator for glowing, beautiful skin. And
00:17:05
Speaker
how physical exfoliators like scrubs and brushes are damaging your skin and creating micro tears. So that's why you need to go to chemical roots so you can glow. And I don't know who started that trend. I don't know where that came from, but a proliferated caught fire and
00:17:23
Speaker
Every single brand started launching a chemical exfoliator of sorts. And then we all destroyed our skin barriers because everybody was overusing it, misusing it. And then we saw the new trend of people coming in and saying, we're going to restore your skin barrier. And that's what we're seeing now.
00:17:39
Speaker
But they do use data, like the data girl segment, I say data girl. It's supposed to be like attagirl. Then also I mispronounce literally everything and Sarah makes fun of me for it, but it could be either. So for data girl, we often get these studies of what people, for instance.
00:17:57
Speaker
Bait is a really great tool that Sarah and I use to see what people are searching for. It was created and co-founded by the two people that essentially created Google Trends. And Google Trends was like my number one tool that I used when I was in-house at PopSure to see, okay, are people searching chemical exfoliator or are they searching glycolic acid exfoliator? Okay. It shot up within the last month. This is going to be trending for the next couple of weeks, probably like we should do a story on it, whatever.
00:18:26
Speaker
And so fate will basically take 12 months of data and month by month see what people are searching. I know brands buy into that. I know that there's a brand which the name escapes me. Apologies everyone if I sound like I'm rambling because I'm experiencing long COVID and my brain is not as good as it literally was pre-November, which is crazy to me.
00:18:51
Speaker
There is another tool that I know a lot of brands use and they buy the product. It's like an online application where they learn, okay, this is the most talked about brand on social. This is the hierarchy of those brands. And we used to utilize them a lot in that data girl segment to see, okay, this is how much ROI these brands are getting from their big campaigns and things of that nature.
00:19:17
Speaker
Brands are utilizing this information, but I would be remiss not to include the fact that Mona Catan, who is a huge beauty influencer, her sisters, Huda Catan, they both run Huda Beauty. She was recently on the podcast and I think she gave the best piece of advice I've ever heard, which was,
00:19:34
Speaker
just completely like it sounds mine. I like my mind is like, this is incredible. But maybe y'all don't think so. Wait, what? I want to interject here so bad because I made a note for myself because I wonder if the thing that stood out to me is what you're gonna say where she was like, everyone is using the same
00:19:52
Speaker
Yes. You have to use your intuition, your gut, go to therapy so you can trust your gut, clear out the shit. Yes. Okay. Sorry. I will, we'll say it better than I am, but like, oh my God, I literally stopped the podcast and took a screenshot of that timestamp when she said that. Keep going. No, that is it. So Mona basically said, I ask founders all the time about trends and it's funny because any expert, any founder, they all hate trends.
00:20:18
Speaker
Like it's not them that want to follow trends. It's usually once a brand gets bigger and they start to build off their team. That's when you start to see them following certain trends. But as a founder, no founder wants to say, Oh yeah, I follow trends to build my business.
00:20:34
Speaker
They all want to think they're taste makers and they all want to think that they are step ahead of everybody else and knows what's going to be hot for everybody else does. Mona is one of those people. Mona Catan does have incredible taste and she can predict trends before they even happen.
00:20:49
Speaker
She can set trends, okay? So her whole thing was, if your brand is buying this data that's available to everybody else, there's no barrier for entry. All you have to do really, the only barrier is paying for it, which a lot of these brands will do. You're getting the exact same data as every single other brand that decided to buy that data to learn from.
00:21:10
Speaker
And if you're going to build a business strategy or a product launch strategy based on that, you're going to look exactly like every other brand out there. You have to have a gut intuition of what you want to make and you really have to know your brain and what differentiates itself from everybody else. Bobby Brown said something extremely similar when I interviewed her a few months ago. So.
00:21:34
Speaker
That would be like, I think that single-handedly is the best piece of advice I've ever heard in terms of running a beauty business. Don't rely on the data. Yes, it's helpful, but is it the reason why you should launch a product? I don't think so. Thank you so much for, I love that. And I'm actually, I will put the link to that episode in the show notes. It was such a great interview the whole way through. I loved it.
00:21:57
Speaker
Well, thank you. Everyone should listen to it if this is resonating with you. In that interview, something else I was thinking about a little bit is that one thing I love about your podcast too is you guys bring on these really interesting female founder in the beauty industry.
00:22:15
Speaker
And they have such great insight. And I feel like that idea of intuition and creativity alongside like great successful organized businesses has come up a lot. And actually a previous episode of this podcast, my friend Kelly Courtney, who's a brand expert was on and we were talking about this a little bit that like, when it comes to business, people are very comfortable talking about the data, the information, the database decisions. I keep saying data.
00:22:45
Speaker
for a long time. I think it's honestly, I think it's either. Honestly, just say however you want. I will. The numbers, like the very logical structures.
00:22:56
Speaker
But I think in the beauty space, there's a little more permission for female founders to talk about that more creative, intuitive side of the work. I'm not sure why that is. It's just a bit of a trend. Maybe I've noticed in the amazing interviews you guys do with a lot of female founders, and I really appreciate it because work and business and creating things is a creative act, but
00:23:22
Speaker
I think we're often inhibited from talking about it because it seems little will or like it's going to take away from our credibility. But I think to your point, though, that itself, like female bounder talking about it in this way.
00:23:36
Speaker
That's a trend itself because it was noted that people, consumers wanted a founder behind their brand. And Sarah and I have talked about this a lot. Do you want to have a founder story to want to love a product? Like Lawless Beauty, for example, I'm holding this lip gloss from Lawless Beauty. Andy Wallace.
00:23:57
Speaker
It has an incredible founder story. We're going to have her on the podcasting because she's truly a powerhouse. This girl is incredible. But I would say that like maybe majority of people that walk into a Sephora do not know Annie's story, but the people that follow Lawless on Instagram and TikTok and things of that nature, they do. They know Annie's story and that's why they probably buy into the brand.
00:24:20
Speaker
Same with Sheena from Kosas. I'm like looking at my desk, like Ron from beauty stat. Like he created like the three-step Clinique system for Estee Lauder in the nineties, worked on La Mer, worked on all these brands. Now he has his own brand. It was proven that people wanted to.
00:24:36
Speaker
understand there was a human being behind the brain. And so when you're talking about women revealing a little bit more of the creative and the intuition and things of that nature, I almost feel like that is a result of a consumer wants and this boom of founder stories. In my humble opinion, I don't care about your founder. I do. I love these founders and I'm friends with a lot of them.
00:25:02
Speaker
But I don't really care. I'm literally looking at my desk at every single one of these brands as a founder story. I think about, for instance, like SkinCeuticals. Ceuticals is just a bomb brand. And they have science and R&D behind their brand. And I trust them because I know they make efficacious products. And I know that they were one of the first brands to ever use vitamin C and ferulic acid in a formula to help with
00:25:29
Speaker
brightening the skin and pigmentation. But I can't, I'm not thinking, Oh yeah, I love skin. I love skin suiticals and I love the founder story. I don't even know there's the, like a founder story behind CE. Wow. Skin suiticals. So I think to your point though, you're seeing this trend of women coming forward and talking about their brands and talking about the intuition of it all. But I feel like they've almost been coached by their PR teams.
00:25:54
Speaker
And if they work with a retailer, work with the retailer to really dive into what their founder story is to differentiate themselves from every other brand. That's such an interesting insight. I'm glad you shared that. I'm bummed about it, I think.
00:26:09
Speaker
Maybe. I know. I know. But that's the thing. It's like pulling back the curtain on things, right? Like I think everyone wants to think that everything is just peachy keen jelly bean, but it's a business. Beauty is a business. It's a $500 billion business. There's a new beauty brand every single day. Quite frankly, I have been thinking about launching a beauty brand and this is something I said I would never do in my life because I said there's too much, but I do truly think if I can get the R and D down and I can actually
00:26:37
Speaker
make a good product, there is a white space for what I would like to create. There's truly a 100% white space in it, but most brands, the number one thing you'll hear from a founder is I created my brand because I couldn't find anything that worked for my skin. And my honest response to that is love you. You didn't search hard enough because you could walk into a Sephora, a Nordstrom, an Ulta Beauty, a Credo, a 13 Loon, wherever you shop, a Target.
00:27:07
Speaker
And you will be able to find a variety of different formulas. There is not a ton of innovation in the beauty space right now in terms of what you're seeing in these retailers.
00:27:18
Speaker
You have to have a founder story almost, I feel, to really differentiate your brand. How is this brand, how is this, for instance, clean, quote unquote brand different from this clean, quote unquote brand? They offer the same benefits. They offer the same product or ingredient removals so that they can be constituted as clean. So what differentiates them besides just the packaging? It's the founder story.
00:27:42
Speaker
That, it's fascinating. And in some ways it's one, I love beauty and beauty content and hearing and reading about the industry, but I had wanted to ask you a question that I was having trouble formulating when I put these questions together because I don't think there's any industry that's as tied
00:28:03
Speaker
to its content as the beauty industry is. And people are not seeking out SaaS content software as a service. We're not like, ooh, I can't wait to hear the founder story for this new HR software. And I suppose that's B2B. But even B2C, people are just not as interested. But I think what the beauty content industrial complex does is it creates this community
00:28:32
Speaker
for women, and I do think women are hungry for community, and reading people's even reviews on Sephora, even if more than half of them are probably fake, or someone's gossipy, or what's the word I'm looking for, confessional. I tried the new SkinCeutical serum, and I'm sorry to say it's worth the $180.
00:28:51
Speaker
friend and there's something about beauty that women are interested in. It feels like they like sharing. There is community, but then there's the dark side where that gets leveraged. And when you're talking about beauty founders, it's making me think about, I'm sure you actually, you probably know this too, that for women authors, they get tapped to write confessional memoirs. People want, they want women to talk
00:29:15
Speaker
deeply about their deepest feelings and experiences. And with men, they're like, got any cool new novel ideas over there? It seems similar. It's like women have to succeed if one did want to be a founder.
00:29:28
Speaker
Whether you're creating it or just sharing it, you have to give more of yourself and you have to be the product as opposed to just being trusted to make something efficacious and worthwhile. Annoying. It is annoying, but I think it just comes down to the fact that beauty is, it's subjective, but it's something that unfortunately women have been forced to think about all day, every day in terms of what they look like.
00:29:54
Speaker
It sucks and I don't want to be delusional like People that say that's changing. It's not it's just not I know that there were brands in the past like publications that banned the word anti-aging and I've seen a lot of them do a
00:30:11
Speaker
about face on that because they're realizing that their core demo that they reached is now actually aging and they do want to anti-age. They do want to look younger than they are. Those reasons are broad. You can want to look younger because you feel that you may be edged out of work opportunities if you look a certain age.
00:30:32
Speaker
you can want to look younger because you don't feel with the way you look. You feel younger. I interview plastic surgeons a lot and I know it like sometimes it's a little, we try to be very delicate with when we interview plastic surgeons because we know some people are like just completely anti and that's their prerogative, but we also are not
00:30:53
Speaker
We don't gate keep anything either. So if you want to alter your body in any way, that is also your prerogative. And so I've interviewed so many amazing plastic surgeons who say a lot of my patients come in and they say, I feel 35 still. I'm still like I'm mobile. I'm still working out. I'm still living my life. I love all the same things that I loved when I'm 35, but now I'm 55 or 60 and I don't look on the outside how I feel on the inside.
00:31:20
Speaker
There's a variety of reasons why people want to buy anti-aging products or look younger or whatever it is. And when somebody is trying to sell you something about that will change
00:31:33
Speaker
how you appear in some aspect, you want to be able to connect with a person versus thinking you're buying into an industrial complex that's giving you a complex about your looks. You know what I mean? So I do think it all, it's just the nature of the beast at this point. So I definitely, I don't want anybody to take away when I'm talking about founder stories like
00:31:56
Speaker
as a negative thing and that I don't like them. I actually do. I love hearing a founder story, but I also know it's a marketing tool and not necessarily there just for the right intentions. Even if it is you're starting a brand because truly like you're a woman of color and you felt like you had not been serviced in the past.
00:32:17
Speaker
to tell that story and make that a talking point of your brand is still a marketing decision. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. That's really interesting. I feel like I deflated, I took the wind out of your sails with this conversation. And you're like, wow, it's not what I thought. No, I had no illusions about it. Like I hear you and I'm glad you, I love that aspect of what you guys do because I feel like you don't pull your punches and you pull back in a way that is helpful and interesting.
00:32:44
Speaker
Right. I'm not, listen, I'm not out to get anybody and I'm not here. I think sometimes beauty editors or even like people that work in the beauty industry as like a writer, like they're always looking to expose something. They're always looking like for the dark underbelly of something. And I think maybe sometimes as journalists or reporters, like we're conditioned to think that way.
00:33:04
Speaker
But I also just want to have fun. I also want people to know like beauty is it's light and it can be fun and it's not the most serious thing in the world. I want to entertain people. I want them to laugh. I want them to smile. I want them to enjoy a product that I recommend. I want them to feel good when I recommend a product. I want them to love a person who comes on the podcast to talk about their brand. It doesn't have to be the dark side of beauty all the time, but I do want people to keep their eyes open and know, okay,
00:33:31
Speaker
When a sunscreen claims to be reef safe, that is a marketing term that there's no actual definitive proof that shows that wearing a sunscreen on your body and then going into the ocean water is what's actually killing these coral reefs. There's like a variety of other things that are more than likely killing these coral reefs than sunscreen. So I just want everyone to be very, don't wear rose colored glasses, but let the wind blow through your hair. Have fun with it.
00:33:58
Speaker
Yeah, no, I do. All right. So I said earlier, I want to ask on this, but for folks who are curious, like, why and how did you get into this? I know you mentioned you started at PopSugar, but what drew you to beauty and what was your entry point? So my mom was a cosmetologist when I was growing up. So from a very young age, I was having my hair permed. I was getting my hair cut by her.
00:34:19
Speaker
She was very into the princess Diana cut. So I had very short hair for a very long time. I had eye surgery when I was little. So I feel like this probably is the basis for a lot of my interest in the category of beauty. I have ptosis, which is where the muscles that control my eyelids were either completely impaired or just extremely heavy. Like they were dystrophy. And so my mom took me to a doctor.
00:34:47
Speaker
And he said, listen, she has ptosis, her eyelids, like because of where they sit, it could potentially amount to a variety of things, including blindness. Like she will need to have ptosis remedy surgery because I had an extreme case. So when I was three, I had ptosis remedy surgery where they took a tendon out of my leg, cut it up into little like eight pieces and then put it in my eyebrows, right above my eyebrows to lift my eyelids so I could see properly. And.
00:35:15
Speaker
From there, with my mom being in cosmetology, from me having the surgery and having a pretty, it's a different eye shape than what a lot of people normally have because my eyelid has been manipulated. I don't have a mono lid by nature, but that's what my eyelids look like now. People sometimes say I have a hooded lid. I don't, when I close my eye,
00:35:35
Speaker
Like you can see my entire eyelid with my eyes opened or shut. So a lot of my experience playing with makeup and stuff growing up was like trying to figure out how to do eye makeup for my eye shape. Oh, I can wear eyeliner, but I can't even see it on this one eye, but I can see it on the other eye. I need to like make it more symmetrical.
00:35:55
Speaker
So that resulted in me reading a lot of Allure magazine and trying to figure out like, what were the hot products that all the celebrities were using? What was Lizzie McGuire using? What was Britney Spears using? And I just really was fascinated with that. And I was also fascinated with skincare. I remember reading in Allure, you need to wear sunscreen every day, SPF 30 at minimum.
00:36:15
Speaker
And I was like 12 and I started wearing SPF 30 on my face when I was 12 years old, like without fail every single day. I was known to all my friends as the girl who had, it had a three step system. I was, I had a cleanser. I had a, I use this. Oh my gosh. I think I use an anti-aging, nutrigena, cleanser, toner. Like I was 12. Okay. It was crazy.
00:36:38
Speaker
So I was always really fascinated with that. And I always loved giving recommendations to people told them to wear sunscreen all the time. I played with my hair a lot. Like my mom gave me my first set of highlights when I was in seventh grade. So I've always been really fascinated with that. I remember when I went to college, like when I met my new set of friends, they were like, Oh my God, you know so much about beauty. We all need to go like shopping together. That was like the thing about me.
00:36:59
Speaker
So I went to school for journalism. I studied under the Bob Shieffer School of Journalism at TCU. And my major was advertising and public relations. My minor was business. And I think this helped me because I was able to essentially learn how people wanted to be talked to and what made people connect to brands. And this ended up helping me with like social media and content in the future.
00:37:23
Speaker
I always knew I was going to move to LA because even though I was learning about advertising and public relations in college, I wanted to be an on-camera TV host. Oprah is like my idol. She's my biggest inspiration. I loved Ryan C. Kress and Julianna Riansic, and I knew I was going to move to LA to try to pursue that. And so when I moved to LA, a lot of what I did was
00:37:45
Speaker
You know, airbrush tan people work in hair salons while I was networking and going to different events as an assistant for entertainment events and things of that nature. And then I was working at an entertainment PR firm. And my boss knew I wanted to be an on-camera host. And at this entertainment PR firm, it was like people that represented all the biggest names, all these A-listers.
00:38:07
Speaker
So it was really great for me to learn who was working behind the scenes on these big celebrities careers. And then at the same time, my boss was like, you want to be an on-camera host, get your job done, and you can go on auditions. And there just so happened to be a job available at PopSugar. They were looking for an on-camera beauty reporter. And they wanted someone with a journalism background, which was the basis of my degree. They wanted someone that knew how to write, could write their own scripts, and that truly loved beauty. And I did. I would not say I was an expert at beauty.
00:38:35
Speaker
at all. I was 23 years old. I had so much to learn, but I was passionate about it. I ended up auditioning for them three different times and they hired me. And that's how I really got into the beauty editing slash beauty industry altogether. Wow. That's, that's really fascinating. And
00:38:54
Speaker
um curious so it's been i think we are actually i'm 36 and i think you're 36 too yeah i'm 36 love meaning i feel like 36 is the year where everyone's suddenly younger than you so i loved fucking other 36 oh my god yeah you are so right i'm like how did everyone become so young
00:39:13
Speaker
Crazy. Things have changed so much even in just like 10 years. How has the beauty industry changed since you started? And I presume TikTok or Instagram might be a part of that story, but maybe that's just a drop in the bucket. 2013 to 2023, it's just crazy. I think TikTok without a doubt in the last two years has just completely changed the landscape. People are consuming beauty content and beauty products more rapidly than ever before.
00:39:42
Speaker
And I feel like unfortunately attention spans have gone down People were more likely to watch a 30 20 10 minute youtube video at the time 2013 so focus on one person and get all their information from that one person and At that time having a million subscribers on youtube was a hard to do and an incredible feat now
00:40:10
Speaker
People don't want to sit for maybe 10 minutes, or actually I do think the tide is changing like a little bit, but in terms of like the pandemic when TikTok really blew up, people wanted a first impression video. They wanted one minute to tell you why you need to buy a product.
00:40:25
Speaker
And at this point, a million followers on TikTok is nothing compared to people that have 5, 10, 15, 20 million followers. However, I will say this, I know a lot of brands pivoted to TikTok because TikTok does have the power to sell out a product.
00:40:44
Speaker
But I think that brands have to be very careful because I have noticed that consumers are now tired of being told they need to do product every day. Also, if you're putting all your eggs in the basket of an influencer on TikTok, it is very rare that they cross over to other platforms.
00:41:03
Speaker
And it's also very rare that they actually have an audience that truly is engaged with them. There are unicorns. There are content creators that will cross over and do have an audience that actually cares about them as a person. But I'll give you an example. Last year, YouTube gave up VidCon. YouTube had always been the sponsor for VidCon. TikTok came in and did it for the first year last year. There was a girl on TikTok that had 400,000 followers.
00:41:32
Speaker
And 400,000 followers on TikTok is not, I don't think it's that necessarily, I don't see it and go, Oh my God, she has a huge following. But if that were Instagram or YouTube, that would be a huge number for those platforms.
00:41:48
Speaker
She says, I'm doing meet and greet at VidCon this year. Come see me. She makes a video. I'm going to my first meet and greet. I'm so excited. And then the next day she comes back and makes a video and says, nobody showed up to my meet and greet.
00:42:03
Speaker
Not a single person showed up to my meet and greet. And I think that is the best example of on TikTok, a lot of the people that these viewers are watching are like almost cardboard cutouts. They don't necessarily care about the person. They care about the content.
00:42:23
Speaker
That is a complete 180 from YouTube, which is people would invest their time watching people on YouTube. They are invested in that person. It is why a lot of these OG beauty creators have success on so many platforms, like for instance, Manny MUA and Laura Lee.
00:42:41
Speaker
huge creators on YouTube. They have a significant following on Instagram as well because of their YouTube presence. And then when they got on TikTok, they adapted to the trends, but people also were familiar with them and trusted them. So they have generated a community on TikTok as well. I think it's going to be hard for a lot of these beauty creators on TikTok to generate the same type of loyalty
00:43:07
Speaker
on other platforms and they're going to have to figure out how to do that. So that's how most of it is how fast people are consuming content and what people want from their content creators. It's all changed so much.
00:43:20
Speaker
That's fascinating. And as you're talking about it, I'm like, yeah, I hadn't thought of it, but what you're saying intuitively makes sense with the way we use TikTok and the way we get served or your page content. And then also the kind of like slash in the pan nature of these sellout products. But then six weeks later, everyone's totally forgotten about that product and they've sold out three more products since. Yeah. It's interesting because for me personally, when I make content,
00:43:48
Speaker
I blow up on TikTok and I, by blow up, I have 90,000 followers. Okay. So it's nothing like to write home about, but it's, I generated, I think 35,000 followers in one day because I was the only journalist allowed on the Euphoria set. And so I had a bunch of behind the scenes information on the makeup trailer that literally no other person had. And so I got so many followers from this last January.
00:44:11
Speaker
And then I started breaking into, okay, I'm reporting on this stuff. I'm going to do content based on behind the scenes beauty on film and television sets. And that put me in a very specific box on TikTok. So if I do anything that deviates from that box, because I was a talking head, giving people information, they didn't know me. And a lot of people are like, oh wait, I remember you from PopSugar, but a majority of these people don't.
00:44:38
Speaker
Because they didn't know me, when I would start to post about products I loved or why you should buy certain product or an innovation in some way, nobody cares. Those videos don't do as well for me. And so I've actually told my agent, if a brand wants to buy onto TikTok, like they have to pay a higher rate because it's going to A, tank my views and B,
00:45:00
Speaker
because of the standards that you have to adhere to to advertise on TikTok, the paid partnership label and all that stuff, TikTok won't say this, but they definitely find that content and then it will tank the rest of the videos that you put up afterward. And I know that from experience. So if a brand is really hell bent on having a product review on TikTok, if I know it's going to tank my views, you're going to like, A, why would you want to do that? But B,
00:45:26
Speaker
You're gonna have to pay a higher premium to do that because I don't want to do it. But if you're like a lot of these brands though, we'll do it because they're like, we just want to have our product on TikTok. So in the event it does organically blow up, your video is there educating them on what the product actually is and how it works. It's crazy, but brands do it. So I'm not going to say no, if I like them and I love the product and they want to pay me to talk about it, I'll do it. But yeah, it's interesting. So I just want to touch on one more thing, which I always try to like.
00:45:56
Speaker
communicate when I'm talking to people about content in the space. When I create content, I'm always thinking about what the viewer wants, but then based on where I put it, it's going to change a little. So I know that on Instagram, I have a community of people that know who I am. It may not be the best platform for exposure or discovery because that platform inherently is not great for discovery, but I know that I can talk to people
00:46:25
Speaker
like a friend and they will comment and respond to me and ask me questions. It feels more like a community. On TikTok, I'm just like, okay, what is the best piece of information that I can give them in this amount of time?
00:46:41
Speaker
in order for them to learn about the product. Cause that's really all they care about. They may not care. Like some of these get ready with me is that are really popular right now. They work for some people, but they don't for a lot of people. So for me, my strategy is, okay, I'm a talking head to these people. I'm going to give them what they want.
00:46:58
Speaker
And go from there. Hopefully that changes. Hopefully that changes where people will become more invested on the creators on TikTok, but at the moment it's a rarity. So I think that is what you just laid out is really fascinating. And as you're talking, one thing I was wondering was, do you have strategies for maybe taking those folks who find you on TikTok and then converting them into.
00:47:20
Speaker
Instagram followers where there's a bit more of a community or for you, do you feel like they just are wholly separate like revenue and brand streams and there's really not that much crossover? I do think that it's wholly separate. Like it's almost so many platforms don't want you driving to other platforms. So what I've noticed is if a creator starts to get big on TikTok,
00:47:44
Speaker
Naturally, people will migrate over to Instagram to see what they're up to, but it's very hard. It's very hard to get that conversion. And that's what I'm saying. Some people may blow up on TikTok, but they also need to be focusing on their other
00:47:59
Speaker
platforms in order to maintain some type of relevancy because what if TikTok disappears? You know what I mean? So there's not necessarily a strategy there. I don't think it makes sense for any creator to say, Oh, and if you want to see more, follow me on Instagram. I think it's just like a natural thing people will want to do because more than likely if you're on TikTok, you do have an Instagram. I don't see like for me personally, I don't do that. And I had not seen any.
00:48:24
Speaker
big creator focus on that either. That's interesting. It's almost like a marketing funnel of social. Yep. That's why it's hard. It's that's why it's really hard for brands too. There was one point where if you posted piece of content on TikTok, it would blow up on Instagram as well. If you posted it and there's like the joke where you see a TikTok and then three weeks later see an Instagram real like it's so delayed. But the thing is that you really do have to be making content.
00:48:53
Speaker
for each of these platforms. And that's what they want too. It's why YouTube Shorts only has a minute long option. You can do a 15 second short or a minute long short. There's no 90 second, there's no three minute. And that makes it really hard to take content that maybe you made for TikTok or your reel.
00:49:11
Speaker
Because you have to figure out how to edit it so that it fits into that one minute time frame. Or you have to completely film a new video specifically just for YouTube. So all the platforms are off. They all bump heads. They want their own content. They don't want you repurposing content. For me, social media is really hard. Like I have to be careful with it. I only go on my laptop. So I don't have any apps on my phone and I try to really limit my time with them.
00:49:37
Speaker
And I'm curious, is it similar for you because it takes so much time to be creating the content you're talking about so much of the industry is happening on social. It's probably a non-negotiable for work, but.
00:49:50
Speaker
How do you create healthy experiences for yourself? Is it hard for you? Do you have rules or tips or tricks for making it sustainable? I wish. Honestly, if I could get out of the social media game, I would. And I think a lot of people would probably agree with me. I just interviewed a huge creator for a story I'm working on. And her mental health is in the trash can. She says, I've been given so many opportunities because of my platform, but I would never consider myself a role model because my mental health is horrible.
00:50:19
Speaker
I asked them if they would change anything about their career. It actually asked them, is this career worth it? And they said, if you get rid of the constant conspiracy theories, negative opinion, my mental health being complete garbage, yes.
00:50:38
Speaker
So I feel like most people, if they could get out of this rat race, they would, but it's a necessary evil at this point. We've seen Dove recently did a study where like teenage girls and teenagers in general, their self-esteem is in the trash because of social media telling them things. And unfortunately, because of the algorithm, if you have one video about something, you're going to get served.
00:51:03
Speaker
a variety of relevant videos to that. I remember I liked a healthy eating video on TikTok and now all I get is this 12, 3, 30 method of losing weight and here's how I do my macros and here's how I lost 10 pounds in this many days. It's like I'm 46 and this is affecting my mental health. I can't imagine being a child and having to be exposed to this all the time.
00:51:27
Speaker
Unfortunately, to your point, I have to be on these apps. I have to be on Instagram. I have to be on TikTok because I have to see what people are talking about and figure out how to generate and make unique content that
00:51:42
Speaker
will benefit my podcast, benefit my own pages, benefit a story I'm working on. I'm only as good as I truly, like at this point, I feel like I'm only as good as the content I put out. And that's not like a life I want to keep living. Like that's my ultimate goal is to start working more in the television space and writing in, you could argue that's a different form of content, but a lot of what you
00:52:04
Speaker
put on paper in terms of writing or being on camera, it's tied to your own ideas and how you present yourself, not necessarily trying to follow all these trends or all these stories or all these whatevers in the digital space.
00:52:19
Speaker
Yeah. And I feel like it's like constantly consuming other people's content messes with one's own like creativity and point of view. Like sometimes it's easier to do it in a vacuum without the so many voices in our head all the time. I agree. I agree. I've had to block people because I don't, there was a person who was making content very similar to what I was making on TikTok and
00:52:44
Speaker
As a journalist, like I have to abide by certain embargoes, by enacted by studios and networks and things of that nature. And this person was reaching out to experts I had already spoken with, had full stories written, ready to go, but being, were being held for an embargo and then releasing basically all of the information that I had already gotten because this person doesn't work in publishing anymore. And.
00:53:09
Speaker
would essentially scoop the story that I had been working on. And it made it really hard for me to want to keep going because I'm like, why am I spending all this time doing this ahead of time? And then this person can just release all this information and generate the views from it. And then it looks like I
00:53:26
Speaker
stole that content from them when I'm the one that's playing by the rules, essentially, I blocked them. And it's not a personal thing. It's just that it was keeping me from actually wanting to do my job. And I don't want to have anybody, I don't want to have an outside source keeping me from doing something that I am passionate about and what I do. Because even though content is draining, I do doing it.
00:53:52
Speaker
but I do have to put it all in perspective as well. Okay. Like I am not a content form. Like I'm a one person band over here. I'm not going to be as fast as everybody else. I'm not going to be as quick as everybody else. And also I want to maintain relationships. Like I don't want like a Netflix or a Disney being mad at me because I released information prior to when I was the post too. It's not worth it. Make the content that you feel is right for you and your audience and forge ahead. And if that means,
00:54:22
Speaker
Blocking people, muting people, whatever. Do it. I think that's great advice. And I know we've gone over time. You have been like a wall of info and advice, Kirby. Thank you. You're so welcome. Do you have any advice for folks who are interested to get into the beauty space?
00:54:42
Speaker
Okay, I think just from an editor writer point of view, because of the pandemic, I think a lot of publications are exploring hiring people that do not live in New York or LA, which is great. So if you do have a desire to work in this industry, look for jobs available, but also find editors at those publications and pitch yourself. Don't DM them.
00:55:10
Speaker
It's like, rule number one, don't DM. Find their email and send them an email. Send them an email, a very short email intro of who you are. Send them a pitch. If you're on Twitter, there are so many threads on how to properly pitch someone your idea, which are extremely helpful.
00:55:26
Speaker
and go from there, you never know. You could become a freelance correspondent, editor, et cetera, for your favorite publication, but you won't know that until you actually pitch yourself and put yourself out there. So don't let where you live keep you from reaching out and putting yourself out there.
00:55:44
Speaker
All right. Thank you. And so for folks who are interested to follow you across these various platforms, where should they check you out? Okay. I'm Kirby Johnson. It's K I R B I E not spelled like the pink marshmallow. And that's me across all platforms, YouTube, Tik TOK, Instagram, Facebook, and then my podcast, which is twice weekly is gloss.
00:56:06
Speaker
Angelus like lip gloss and we are gloss Angelus pod on Instagram and tick-tock We have a thriving Facebook group with like-minded beauty connoisseurs So if you want to join that just look up gloss angels and join the group on Facebook Okay. Thank you so much Kirby. It was so amazing to get to talk to you Is there anything I didn't ask that you would have wanted to say or covered at all? You're a great interviewer
00:56:32
Speaker
All right, folks, I hope that you enjoyed that episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe or review us. And if you want to check out our newsletter, Content People, it is in the show notes. See you next time. Bye.