Transcript
Speaker: Oh, hey, hey, hey,
Speaker: Welcome to another episode of The Art of Authenticity. I am here with Guy Senstock from the Circling Institute. ah Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.
Speaker: It's good to meet you. And it's really, really good to be here. I mean, we've and just in the moment that we started talking, right? i was like, oh, yeah this is gonna be really fun, because I think we share ah this ah appearing into a very similar mystery.
Speaker: Yeah. For those listening, we haven't met, but like we just met 15 minutes ago and just went off. It was like philosophy and spirituality and thinning the veil. And we were just like, okay, we got a lot to talk about. Yeah. i I feel the same way. You know I have a dear friend who I respect so much and he mentioned your work and like, you've been orbiting my world. um So I'm very excited you're here and I, and I really appreciate it So thank you.
Speaker: um One thing I like to do is give the listeners an opportunity to just hear from you, the guest, um what brought you to what you're doing. So circling is um ah process people go through to create an environment for intimacy, openness, all that great stuff, which I'm i'm obsessed with. i can't wait to, but kind of what got you to that point? I know it was men's group, but maybe tell the listeners a little bit of about what got you to a place that this intrigued you enough to create a whole world around.
Speaker: Totally, yeah. Well, you know, just because I always forget about this part because we get we kind of get into it, right? um Because we're going to dive deep into what I'm sure circling is and in relationship and all all that stuff. But there's a real practical part that is learnable. And um so I'll give you some links and it's ah and you can just link ah like click. We have downloadable courses and we have live courses. And it's a whole world to jump into. So if you're interested in anything that I'm talking about with circling, you can actually participate in it and and be a part of it. So I'll provide you those links. And we have downloadable courses that you can do on your own and things that are and live courses that I teach. So hell yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Circling. Me, how did how did all of that happen, right? How did all of that happen? I'm still asking myself that question because ah the more the more i the more i dive into it, the more I the more i kind of in some sense discover what that is that we discovered back in you know nineteen ninety eight in the bay area um so there's there's a quality with this
Speaker: the practice of circling, which has really come to mean a kind of a relational practice, um that even even understanding what it was responded, like what what's it it's a response to and why it spread within 10 years kind of all over the world. um Like you said, you came on and and you mentioned that a friend had introduced you to some circling. And you said, yeah, you said something about like, I got a taste of yeah of of of that world.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, that's really the right word. It really is a world. It's a whole world. um Like a vi a worldview, right? of Yeah. How to be in relation. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: and And I've come to understand, for the longest time, I didn't really understand what like what was it ah about about this that actually kind of, you know, people wanted to participate and, you know, like it it wasn't, I would say in spite of the personalities involved, right. and but was It wasn't like we had a bunch of, you know, business skills or something like that. Like, um and I was like, well, what is it?
Speaker: And I tried to, in the, in the beginning, tried to understand that. what circling was by looking at, you know, the actual practice. Is it part of the method? What is the method getting at that? Right. That people are connected to. But it wasn't until I started to realize um what the Internet actually did to relationships that I started to understand what circling and was responding to. and
Speaker: You know, I think about it like this, it's it's, and I don't hear a whole lot of people talk about this part of the of the thing, which is what the internet really really basically did is is it uncoupled something that was always coupled together.
Speaker: Information exchange, right? Uncoupled it from relationship, right? So like before, say the answering machine, if you had to exchange information, you at least had to talk on the phone, right? You had to engage in this thing called a conversation, right? a Some kind of dialogue.
Speaker: And- Those dialogues, those these this conversation and this sensory motor back and forth using this these strange thing called like making noises that become words, right? The way our tongue taps our mouth and waves move across to create a word, right? That's already bizarre, but yes. Those things, relationship is how a human being becomes a person, right? Like having, I i have a 22 year old, a 23 year old and a four year old, and I'm re-experiencing at an older age, watching a ah little vulnerable, helpless, um you know, creature,
Speaker: becoming a person before my eyes. And what it is, is this, is this continuous connection with his, with his mother and these coordinated back and forth from at all different levels.
Speaker: And I'm really kind of, I feel like I'm witnessing, yeah, we really are relationship all the way down. Yeah. um And I think that You know, by the time he starts to, his mind is able to reflect on itself, that which he reflects on and call says, me or I,
Speaker: is going to is in some sense a a full donation from all the relationships in his life with his mother, with me, right? With his with with the extended family and all and and and and all the people that took care of him.
Speaker: And I think that continues throughout our lives, right? This is how we co-form each other, how the self be how the self gets fashioned in the way that it does, right?
Speaker: And so if you actually make that optional, right, that's a really strange thing. Mm-hmm. By the use of the internet, you mean. yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So, like, for example, You know, and then, and then came, you know, email, texting, social media. And then right now I have, you know, i have social media identities that are having conversations with people at some level that I probably won't even hear about.
Speaker: Right. I don't even know what to make of that. Right. And so we've gone from, I saw a stat the other day that we've gone from, um
Speaker: I think it's 1840 was as far back as it could go where the average person spent eight hours a day, basically in 1840 in relationship, right?
Speaker: and Doing chores together, working together, being on the farm together, whatever that was. And today and you see this, this bar graph, right? Goes down and you know, it's, it basically goes down a little bit and then it hits, I think it hits radio And it goes down slightly. then it Then you see TV. And then it goes down like a lot more. And then and then you see, um you know, computers. It goes down little bit more. Then you see the internet. And it goes kind of almost straight down, right? And then than the iPhone. Then it almost like turns inside out.
Speaker: And so the average today in 2026, the average 25 year old male, here's one interesting stat, like the average 25 year old male spends under 30 minutes a day.
Speaker: In relationship, right? What? Yeah. Oh, that gave me goosebumps. Yeah. Yeah. That's not good. Yeah. Yeah. So in some sense in 1998, right. When me and the people that I was, that I knew at the time started to have this deep relational experience and was really perplexed and struck by it that just kept happening.
Speaker: Yeah. That then we started to like pay attention to and ask the question, what is this? Cause it was distinct from all the other things that we were experiencing at the time. and
Speaker: and And out of that, we started to it started to take shape and stick take form and became you know we had you know companies and we had communities form around it in the Bay Area. right like And then it wasn't until many years later that I started to realize like, oh, something is really something's happening in the world of relationships such that we actually need to consciously take it up.
Speaker: yeah Right? Consciously take up our relationships and and and engage in a kind of concentrated practice of really dwelling and being with each other and discovering what that is in yeah in a very deep way. And I think that we're in a time in history where we're where we're finding out that Whereas before you just had to be born and you had a bunch of relationships and it just kind of worked itself out.
Speaker: Now you actually relationship, it needs to be a a ah domain of concern that you actually take up and take responsibility for and and actually nurture.
Speaker: just like but Just like the body was, right? Like after the Industrial Revolution, which, you know, decreased our need for movement. All of a sudden, we were like, whoa, we have a body and it it has symptoms and it does all these things. And then we have things like gyms, right? all And everyone has now has a category in their mind, right? Why they're not working out and, you know, what kind of diet they're on and all that stuff. I think something similar is happening with relationships um in that way. And I think circling is an integral part of seeing that in some way and a response to it.
Speaker: I love that. I love that. and I mean, for me, too, when I hear you speak about it through history and in relation to us moving away from community to more of an isolated, i mean, you know, the Zoom world is really something. It's beautiful in a way because I have community all over the world, right? We are currently speaking to people in every country. Yeah.
Speaker: the need for that that connection. But also, Guy, what i love about what you're doing is it's not just... and I know, you know, you've thought about this, but it's, it's picking up on where culture perhaps is failing, but also the history of culture communicating didn't really include intimacy and how to talk about feelings. So it's like that part too to combine, hey we're not only going to make sure we don't lose these connections, but,
Speaker: I wonder, do we not value them because we're so bad at it, right? I think humans, yes, we're meant to be in community, yes. But when a feeling comes up, when a vulnerability comes up, when a struggle comes up people, i mean, we have generations of not knowing what to do with truth.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And this may be this may be the... this is maybe a really a form where what's happening allows us to become more wise, right? And wake up to the possibility that happens when two people meet, right?
Speaker: um Because the the way I just drew it out really is focused on on on kind of ah quantity of relationships, right? Which the quantity was so immense yeah before.
Speaker: yeah Where now it's the quantity, right? Is is really low. However, taking it up, right, and really looking at what is a relationship, what is relationality, what is it to be connected, right? why Why do I need it? What is that ah what is that about? what What does that afford as a person, right, to be deeply connected? Now we're starting to talk about the possibility of quality, right? Right.
Speaker: Shocking to think, you know, we would want quality. Yeah. So could you speak to that a little bit? Like people come in community and what does quality mean to you? um i mean, shame, intimacy, willingness to be exposed.
Speaker: Yeah. and know their safety, right? What what is what is that in the circling world? um it's It's something I think a lot in my my little realm over here. Well, the the me the ah you used the word seen.
Speaker: And that's a really, that's a big one. You know, one of the things that that, one of the first things I started to hear people talk about in encountering circling, like from the very beginning was people talked about having this experience of being deeply seen, right?
Speaker: Like I kept hearing people say that, like, you know, well, I died and never was seen so deeply before or heard so deeply. And it was kind of like when they would say it, and I had this experience too, when they would say it, it would be, basically what what they're saying is, it it what I never even thought about being seen. i never even imagined, I didn't even consciously want this thing called being seen. But then when it happened, I realized that's all I ever wanted.
Speaker: Yes. Right. and So this kind of, in this yeah recognition of this kind of being seen like depletion, right. That oftentimes we don't even notice.
Speaker: yeah And so I think a a big part of relationship and deep connection, right. Is this, this way that we are mutual. We can, we can relate in a way such that we afford a mutual disclosure, right.
Speaker: That like, that that there's something about the, when you deeply listen to me, i like, there's something that, that a listening evokes in me, which is a kind of self-disclosure that it discloses, right. Not only stuff that I already know about myself, right.
Speaker: But in that, in that relational dynamic, right? In in your listening, in your wanting wanting to understand and your being drawn into me, that actually draws out layers of things that actually I don't know already about myself, that I find and discover, right? In and through, like revealing myself to you and I see reflected back to me um who kind of, you know, who I am in a very authentic way, right? Deeper levels of me, like how I feel, like I had never, you know, we can have have this experience. And I'm sure you've, I'm sure you're really familiar with this where I end up, right, sharing things about the way I feel.
Speaker: and I ah actually have feelings that i didn't even know that I had until I shared them. Right. Yeah. That, yeah that kind of, um, that kind of ah disclosure of my own person that isn't just about being seen for what I think I am or who I think I am. But through that relationship, I actually um i actually see and we see together something that I hadn't seen about myself before.
Speaker: Right. And vice versa. yeah And I think that's, you know, really deep, authentic connections and can be the one of the ways that that um we co-discover each other in and through the connection. That's the qualitative aspect.
Speaker: It's beautiful. I think, you know, every human being is longing to be seen. but at the same time has this unconscious fear. If you see me, you'll see that I'm blood. Right. And like you have the four-year-old you mentioned, um they don't have a problem being seen, right? They're just free and open and like laughing. And when they cry, they cry. And when they're mad, they're mad. And, you know, it's like the the energy just moves, no problem. And then there's this moment of our meta awareness and our culture
Speaker: and Putting things into right and wrong categories, right? It's good to be one way. It's not cool. It's cool, not cool. Right? And then we start to shut that shit down and it habituates. um But we still have that deep longing, right? Because we are designed to be to be seen. um Yeah. Absolutely. How do we get back to our core essence? And I i love what you said to to know ourselves. and And I mean, for me, it's it's freedom, would you say? to Oh, yeah. free. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally.
Speaker: Well, you also said, you know, you talked about, but then there's this other component, which here's the crux, right? Is it's vulnerable.
Speaker: Yeah. Right. And that's kind of, in some sense, I... I don't know if you could actually have intimacy without vulnerability, right? They seem to go handin hand in hand.
Speaker: How do you define vulnerability before we jump in? Cause I just yeah think a lot of people listening, they might be a little new to that concept or it gets thrown around, right? And somebody who's been thinking about it for decades, how do you yeah define it?
Speaker: Well, I've actually come to define it as and make a distinction between something like there's there's being vulnerable but' But that's also often coupled with something that I think is really different, which is the experience of being exposed.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. Right. Like, and I think that difference helps to highlight what I mean when I say vulnerability. And I think what vulnerability kind of essentially does mean, which is, you know, to be exposed would be something like this. It's like, I'm in, ah I'm, you know, eight years old, seven years old. I'm in the playground at recess. Right. And I'm talking to my friends one of my friends comes and just pulls my pants down. Right. Like, and there I am. Right.
Speaker: Oh my God. The most sensitive aspects of my being, right? Everyone turns and laughs, right? And I experienced this utter humiliation, right such That's exposure. Yeah. And you can imagine how many, how many, you know, how how much money of therapy I would need, you know, in my adult years from just from that, you know, can get the sense that there's usually trauma, interpersonal trauma has to do with this experience of being just exposed, right? Yeah. To the elements.
Speaker: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. However, yeah yeah. However, if it's I'll give you another scenario is like, say, you know, my friends kind of dare me to do it. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: okay And I don't really want to do it, but i'm like i i i like I muster up the courage and I'm like, all right. And I go out there, I'm a little seven-year-old I'm like, hey guys. And I just, you know, all the goods are are revealed. little yeah I reveal them. um And then everyone kind of laughs, right? And then I come back.
Speaker: At some level, I actually think I would probably, ah that would increase my sense of agency. That would increase my sense of self, right? Sure. this so So there's something about- This is like a brave moment. Yeah, absolutely. And you take ah ah you take um authority over it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the key, right? This volition, this voluntarily opening myself up with much surface area, this turning toward- open to what happens after that, this volition, this choice, right? This courage, right? I think is is what I would call vulnerability.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that you said courage um because it's been tagged through culture as weak to be, you know, to your words, exposing your feelings, right? Like keep that shit on lockdown, dah, dah, dah, dah. Yeah. I think it's so courageous to be willing to show yourself and discover yourself and understand all these layers. um Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Because we're sort of infinite, infinite really. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because this showing and this revealing, right, starts to become, it starts to actually have a, ah it creates a um a process where where where not only may I reveal, say, what I feel that may be hard to say, right um But in doing that, it actually reveals what's underneath that.
Speaker: Right. and And so this it's got this quality it has this quality of the revealing just doesn't stay there. It evokes deeper depths of ourselves. Right. and and And there's that experience of like me doing that with you. Right.
Speaker: Kind of implicitly invites you to do the same. Yes. Right. And when that arc of self-disclosure, right, starts to happen, it starts to afford each other.
Speaker: Right. So, so, ah so a conversation and a moment of intimacy can be this huge, you know, deep revealing of each other in and through each other. Right. That that's, that's what becomes possible.
Speaker: ah It's beautiful. So, okay. I got to ask this. It sounds great. You know, um say I'm in that circling moment and I'm in a total conscious decision to reveal and and it feels wonderful. And then there's that person who who says something that's very shaming or right. Like not safe. um yeah How do you guys handle creating space so that it can remain that flowing?
Speaker: Right. Cause I mean, that's the, that's the dream is that we always feel we're in protected environment for that. oh Totally, totally. Well, I think, I think, first of all, like, what one is in circling. So circling is a group, oftentimes is a group process, right? So we, there's a whole set set of agreements that we make that really kind of create that kind of safety. In other words, we all get on, on the same page, right? So we have, You know, there's things about confidentiality that we set, right? There's things that we talk about that when we share, right, we're consciously practicing sharing with with a certain intention to relate, right?
Speaker: um and in And what that means is is sharing our own, disclosing our own personal experience, right? That's really the emphasis, right? We call that sovereignty, that That i I don't, I'm not going into making judgments or assessments about you or trying to fix you or control an outcome or get you to like me or all the different ways that we try to control with our speech. instead Instead, we're coming from a place of consciously speaking about our experience.
Speaker: Right. like but Like what I feel, what i what I notice, what I imagine, owning our own our own projections, all of that stuff in the language of experience or sovereignty.
Speaker: And then the other one is a the other one is we we make an agreement to um consciously listen in a particular way. Right. to To listen to the person's deeper, deepest humanity.
Speaker: Tell me what that means. Can you share a little more? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because listening, I think actually is at the heart of circling. And I think is it at the heart actually of, of speech, of language, right?
Speaker: Listening i i'm sure Actually, there's something mysterious about like about listening because ah it it's been the most transformative part of circling for me.
Speaker: yeah But I think that there's something that there's a that that there is, think about it like this, there is, speech makes no sense, right? Without without a listening, right?
Speaker: Right. Like in some sense, speech is only effective to the degree that it's speaking to a listening. So one must to be able to hear a listening that it can that the the speech is compelled to come come forward out of. So listening isn't just a passive thing.
Speaker: Right. There's a there's a way to listen that actually of can be evocative of what it's listening to. Right. And so if if I'm if I'm not just listening to just what you're saying.
Speaker: Right. But I start to listen to what has you say that. Right. And I start to listen to who is it that says that. Right. And I start to listen to, oh you're a human being.
Speaker: Right. Like. I can start to hear even if what I'm hearing from you I don't like. mean I can actually listen through that into, oh this is you're you're concerned about something. You care about something. Maybe you feel hurt.
Speaker: Right. Like, oh, you need something like. who Like, who are you? Right. You can say you can you can start to hear the person's deeper positive intentions and be able to respond to that.
Speaker: But that kind of depth of listening. Right. Is is. is really linked to a kind of a depth of intelligence, right? that That can become more and more discerning of not just what the words that you hear, but you can start to hear the deeper the deeper depth of the person's humanity.
Speaker: And we are like one of the things I like to say is i can only i think I can only hear the depth of your own humanity with my own. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Hell yeah, I heard that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah So what um what gets in the way of of listening? Is it um connecting to oneself yeah enough to hear? Yeah, I think so.
Speaker: I think so. You know, i i yeah
Speaker: I would say that the, I mean, the number one thing is interpersonal judgment. Right. Yeah. Yeah. hunt yeah you know my We're brutal. Yeah. We're just brutal. We're brutal to ourselves. We're either judging ourself or we're judging the other, but the judgments are just, and nobody wants to admit it So then you're sitting in shame of all of it too. Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker: That's part of the thing that comes up is like, you know, people are are really afraid to be judged, right? yeah um And I would say that it's it's judgment is where listening kind of stops.
Speaker: um Yeah, I would say judgment is where listening kind of stops. And it's understandable. I mean, the the mind loves its categories, right? Oh, my God. It's like, um you know, I do the Akashic Records and you know, I've read thousands and thousands of people and it's just like there's a thematic of get out of the mind. It's this right and wrong machine. You know, it's good for certain things, but come to the heart where you can. Yeah, feel into your truth and everything. And yeah, it just it loves.
Speaker: It's a wonderful tool when organized to be in service to our truth and our heart, when it's left to its own devices. it can't stop categorizing, judging, blaming, right? Like it's just got this list of things it does to keep you safe sometimes, but also just it's what it does. And we take it seriously because it, it just sounds like us. So it's like, oh yeah, it's got my voice. it it must be me. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it it also prevents us to be really to behold yourself.
Speaker: each other in a relationship. This kind of that, I love that term to behold one, to be, to this kind of quality of holding, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Cause it's, you know, some of the the practices that we do in circling and the exercise that we do in circling really have to do with this kind of deep dwelling of like, in some sense, just, you know, it could just be looking at each other's eyes and just staying in silence.
Speaker: Right. And then maybe just doing an exercise of saying, yeah, being with you right now, I'm noticing. Right. Like and and then maybe the other person says, yeah, hearing that being with you right now, I'm noticing something in my experience.
Speaker: And then the other person says, yeah, hearing that being with you, I'm noticing like just these little ass, like just a practice where you just focus on what it's like to be with this person and just only sharing what's in the present moment.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Yeah. this ah it's It's through these kinds of exercises that, you know, at some level we've been in relationship with people our own lot, our whole lives. We've never maybe even encountered what it's what is it to be with a person?
Speaker: What am I actually looking at when I'm when I'm before a person? What is a person? Who is this person? Right. Like, what is that? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we go to school and, you know, two plus two all the way through calculus and all of the sciences. We have no interpersonal conversation, communication. yeah and then we get into marriages and families and work environments and we haven't taken one fundamental class or skill in it. It's crazy.
Speaker: yes To me, is it's a travesty that this isn't part of our process. um Absolutely. Because we are relational beings and we don't even know how to relate to ourself because we are constantly judging and fearing and whatever. Now I have to...
Speaker: try to get myself extended to you, right? But I'm struggling. Yeah. and And so I love that you offered in that way. That's so beautiful. Would you say that it's, um I know you started with a lot more men. Is it, but um does it draw in the sexes in the same way? Is it different experience? yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, actually, I would say, like i think I think on average, we've had more women actually than we have had men. or it's it's right It's right. It's pretty equal. Yeah. It's pretty equal.
Speaker: I love that you're guys bringing it into the world, though, because I think this is the kind of thing women do want to do is communicate and connect. But having um a blended community appeals to me. Is that something you've thought about an important? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, what what's interesting is I wouldn't say.
Speaker: Although I'm a man, right? And Jerry, my, my, the the other, my, my, my kind co-fuck, the person who co-discovered it with me, actually there were bunches of people that were there at that time. Right.
Speaker: um It's, I wouldn't say that it's, it was really like started by men. Mm-hmm. From the very beginnings, right, we we did have men's circles, right? We started meeting once a week out on the beach and we'd start a fire. But at that very same time, there were women's circles that started, right? like Like there was ah the community, the community really formed, there were men and women through the whole thing, right? For sure. um Yeah, so that was a really big part of it, huge part of it.
Speaker: and Okay. Okay. Fair enough. I wasn't sure on that. Cause I, feel like, um, healing us is to bring men and women together and recognize at the core, we, we,
Speaker: all are gentle and loving and desire vulnerability. And, and I mean, there's differences of course, but like there's, there's more similarities. Do you think? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,
Speaker: And this, you know, just, I just wanted to go back to this thing about, you know, what is it to be with a person? I think about it like this is like, you start to realize like you and I could sit here, right.
Speaker: For a thousand years and say everything, right. Reveal everything, right. We can say everything in every single moment. We can share all of our memories. We can like, we could do that for a thousand years and we still won't, I will never be able to find the point where you end.
Speaker: or right Yeah, there's this way, there's a way where that and I think that really starts to speak at what it is that we're before when we're before a person, right, is like, that that person is, it is a source of inexhaustibility, I can never exhaust you.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Yet you yet a person is also has this quality of you emanate something that I can't actually categorize. There's a there's a there's a there is a uniqueness, a singularity to you that really shines forth.
Speaker: Yes. Right. Yeah. But that that uniqueness that shined forth forth also um shines forth is something that withdraws into a mystery. Yeah.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. and What do you call that? Yeah. i but Well, I've come to understand that that's a person, right? Do do you think it's their soul or their do you think of people as um living multiple lifetimes? Or is it, or a deep what how do you think of that?
Speaker: Well, when i the way I personally think about it, right, is... this this shining forth, right? In this emanating, in this, in emanating this particularity, this uniqueness, right?
Speaker: And this sense of it being connected to something that's inexhaustible, that's that's a kind of a fount of some kind that you can never reach the bottom of yet yet withdrawals, but draws you into.
Speaker: in its withdrawal, right, through this very kind of shining forth, that starts to sound like, to me, that starts to sound like being itself. Yeah. right at a deeper level it seems to so it seems i think i think this is what we i think this is what we experience when we really get present in nature right i think it's also what we see when we're really struck by anything beautiful right um in so in some very real sense um so i think in in some ways right this uh
Speaker: But in when when it happens with another, when that shines through with another, it's it's got this particular quality where that very that very shining forth and becomes possible in being intimate with each other.
Speaker: That shining, withdrawing, can can call my name. but You can address me. ah Right. And I can address you. and yeah this co-address almost can actually presence this this aspect in and through a dialogue, right? It could show itself between us and start to manifest between us, right? And that's where we end up in conversations and connections that where you lose time, right?
Speaker: Okay. And then our lives are changed at the end of it. Right. And everything looks different after that. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you landed here. Cause this is what I really wanted to talk about. i love it. um Intimacy, right? Like this thing, the way you just spoke, that is gorgeous. I mean, the beingness of the mystery of this essence of the singularity coming through and now being in relation. I mean, it's one thing to, to, know and feel into one's essence or maybe even observe somebody, but now it's speaking. It's it's moving energy back and forth in the field that is mutual.
Speaker: Yeah. Creating something we call intimacy, um which is one of these topics again that I think, you know, it took me a while to think, what do we mean when we say this word? We all want intimate connection. We say intimacy.
Speaker: I started playing with into me into me, I see me, right? Like intimacy. But, yeah and then once I see me, I can share that with you if I choose to. um yeah What is the, like, I loved what you said. So I want to continue when this moving energy of self being is expressed through these two vehicles, Guy and Laura, we have this intimacy that starts to arise.
Speaker: um Why does that matter? What does that mean? what you know, what, what, what is some people have never experienced that, right? There's a lot of people I think. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, just like right now, like listening, like being with you, when you said, when you said, Oh, this is what I wanted to get into, it like really ah get into. And there was a moment where you were formulated. Well, it's this thing about intimacy and you were looking, your eyes were looking around and there's, there was this kind of sense where like your shoulders dropped. And I felt like a, I felt something inexhaustible in you. I felt this sense of, Oh my God, you've been, you've been thinking about this and wondering about this.
Speaker: And I got this sense of, You're a sense of something inexhaustible in you, right? of Of this, in some sense, you have been thinking about this
Speaker: and none of that thinking about it, right? Like just was the final thing, right? But the draw, right? Something, something I can hear a a sense of something's drawing you, something's speaking to you, something's beckoning to you, right?
Speaker: I could hear that. Right. And I kind of felt like in some sense being, a I'm being addressed by this inexhaustibility in you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. I mean, as soon as you say it, it's like, I drop in somewhere within myself and it feels like a timeless, endless, spacious.
Speaker: ah I don't know where to start, but I'm excited. Yeah. And it's not the mind. It's like, Oh, I'm ready. i don't know what's coming next. Right. um yeah But I want to go there to that.
Speaker: here Oh, and in me, i could feel it draws out that very same thing in me. but Right. There's a, there's a sense of a certain, and I mean this in the most, like in, in, in the most, ah in the best way, your, your interest, right.
Speaker: Yeah. it creates a kind of demand for me to be, to meet that depth. Right. And there's, so there's a drawing into it, right? Like it evokes something in me, which probably is the very similar to whatever it's being invoked in you. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: So then for those who are out there who are like, okay, that sounds quite terrifying. but I don't want to evoke wi it's like almost like some people feel like it's a a ah ah a space they're going to fall in. Right. That's what I've heard is almost like a,
Speaker: a hole that they don't feel they'll be able to, they will be able to get back out of as if it's something else than them. But how do how do you think about people who who hear it, but are afraid to let go yeah and experience themselves that way?
Speaker: Well, I think what I would say, like one one of the things that you're speaking to is, is, you know, basically what I'm hearing you say is like, well, aren't there, isn't that anxiety provoking? Right. Like, yeah like, but, but intimacy sounds awesome at one respect, but like, man, it sounds terrifying.
Speaker: Right. Like, so, so how do I, how do I not have it be terrifying? Right. Like in, it in, so in some sense, right. Yeah. Like, yeah she um, from whatever trauma is trains people to think, no way. If you see me, if I see me, if you see me, we're going to know the truth.
Speaker: Yeah. And that truth is I am not worthy of love. I am not worthy of a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. I think a core wound in humanity. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, relationships are great, but they're also at the bottom, like it's through relationships.
Speaker: You know, when people go to therapy for trauma, right? Like what are they talking about? They're talking about all the failed relationships in their lives, right? All of the fights and the betrayals. And those are the things that wound us, right? Like the tree falls and breaks my leg.
Speaker: Like I may be in shock, right? right For sure. But but i'm I'm not going to feel kind of emotionally hurt. However, if if you know if my best friend comes and and hits me with a hammer on the leg, right? I'm going to be just as physically wounded, but I'm also going to be, right? Yeah.
Speaker: and It'll put into question who he is and what relationships are. Can I be open to anybody? It's got this, you know, there's this element, right? of Yeah. of of hurt that can happen interpersonally. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. and And I think, I think that really at one level just shows how primary relationships are, right, for us. Because they're the things that can hurt us the most in some sense.
Speaker: And then there's the anxiety that comes up when I face when i face somebody, right? And i'm going to I'm going to actually say what's really authentic for me, like what's really true. You know, just I can imagine, that you know, you know, for few people listening, it's it's, you know, those moments when you say, okay, I'm going to be really honest here.
Speaker: Right. You can automatically just imagining that. Right. Yeah. this You know, you can feel a kind of anxiety that comes up. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: And i I think that's that anxiety actually is a feature. Right. It's not a bug. And the key to being intimate, right?
Speaker: Because if we look at it, you know, and i'm I'm talking about this turning toward that takes courage, right? This opening up, right? With more surface area, right? This, which which always communicates a desire to be more related to you and a revealing of how important you are to me.
Speaker: Hmm. Right. I think just the act of turning towards the other discloses, right, that you matter to me in some way. Right. Right. Thus, I'm willing to actually say something that's difficult, that risks something in me and and maybe between us.
Speaker: Right. In some way, all of that, right. Is revealing a sense of I'm showing to you in that moment, what you mean to me and how important you are to me, which is a, is it, is the communication that I think actually is the deeper communication, right. No matter what I end up saying, right.
Speaker: Like I'm, I'm, I'm disclosing that to you in a profound way. Um, Yeah, i'm i'm i'm I'm here for you, right? Like I'm not leaving, I'm not... Yeah.
Speaker: yeah You know, we don't always hear what we want. It's just what it is. But it's like, but i'm I'm open to knowing all of you, even the parts that I may not want to hear. And I'm not leaving simply because it offends my right, yeah, sense of something. absolutely Yeah. Absolutely. And the fact that I'm saying something, then you can see that it's scary for me to say it, or it's risky for me to share this with you. And maybe it's I'm actually not sharing anything about you. Maybe I'm just disclosing something that I haven't disclosed to you about me. Right?
Speaker: Like, And that anxiety that you may see in me, like communicates, you know, you could just imagine that it's like the the sense of like, oh, I matter to you.
Speaker: You're willing to risk something with me. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, that gets communicated, right? in in In a deep way. that can call forth a kind of listening, right, from me, right, that is, is, starts to go into the depths of listening that we were just talking about, right?
Speaker: Yeah, beautiful. I love it. So, so the fear of intimacy, um What would you say to somebody who's sitting here going, tell me the first step in getting comfortable enough to share something about myself? I've never i've never done it. I've been hiding myself.
Speaker: my true self, right? I show a version, we show masks, we have all these wonderful ways of presenting in the world, but, but underneath it, we know, you know what, that, that other part, I'm, yes, I'm not, I'm not ready. um How would they start that process for for yeah your world? Yeah.
Speaker: Well, it's funny because um I love, I love, I love the question because it's, it's, it's an entire, it's a, the question itself is really intelligent in my view, like it, because the very first, you're actually asking the, the, the question that leads to the very first stage of circling, right. that we call sovereignty.
Speaker: Right. Like, and sovereignty basically is, it's not just independence, right. It's a, it's a way of really being grounded in ourselves that affords, um, relationship, right? It's like, there's a, uh, you know, we, we say there's like a, like a sovereign nation, for example, has a unity yet. It also has borders and those borders are the means of ways ways that it connects to other borders, right? It's,
Speaker: so So I would to summarize so sovereignty is really this is how we how we speak about it in circling. To the degree that I'm really at home here and I can be with me.
Speaker: yeah the To the degree that I can be with what's most close to me is to the degree that I can be with you. Yeah. And conversely, to the degree that I can't actually be with me.
Speaker: i I can't actually, like, I'm not aware of how I feel. I'm not aware of, like, I'm i'm not present enough to to to know kind of who I am or what i want or where I am or, right, is to the degree that I that i can't actually be with you. Yeah. Right? 100%.
Speaker: hundred percent So it's like sovereignty, right, is a mode of relation, right? And in fact, it's it's a requirement of relationship, you know, that kind of being a unique person who can feel, sense themselves, right, at a deeper level is is the is what I actually need in order to be able to communicate to you and disclose myself to you in some in some very real way. I mean, Guy, it's like crazy, right? like if you pull out 60,000 feet and you say, what we're saying is, can you even get comfortable with yourself? Like like you, I'm 55. I've been with myself my whole life and I'm not comfortable with just this yet. I mean, right? there's It's profound.
Speaker: how long it can take to cultivate the awareness of that mysterious, and the way you put it was so elegant, right? This sort of endless mystery. I mean, it's a mystery to me. Like, I don't even know what words are going to leave my mouth right now. My hand is doing something and I'm not sure why, right? It's these habit bundles, right? It's just this constant um experience of self that's happening spontaneously, right?
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. And I don't want to be near that because I'm afraid it's bad. It's like, wow, that's so that's so unfortunate because it's it's beautiful to sort of reflect on the yeah the awe of what we really are.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. It it is awe is the right word. Awe and wonder, right, is where I think this leads to. Tell me why. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Tell me more. What does that mean for you? Well, just the quant, like just the, just the phenomenological experience that you just emanated and spoke to, right?
Speaker: This mystery of, yeah, it's, but it's like being sovereign. It isn't just like a I know my own definition, right?
Speaker: No, it's, There's something about if I can feel into this well of this one i call me, right, that I seem to be, a see it seems to be me, but yet I'm undergoing it. Yeah. being a self is such a strange thing to be in my my experience it's very strange it's very strange uh there's that line it's a privilege of a lifetime to find out who you really are you know carl young because and i think about it all the time i'm like what does that mean i don't know who i am i mean how is that possible i have so much time with me um and yet it's an unfolding or a and mean there's that inexhaustibility
Speaker: Yeah. <unk> that inexhausibility in the sense of it right the awareness of it and then he said something really interesting to me where he said yeah and then to share myself i actually find out what i'm going to say I don't actually know what I'm going to say, even if I think I do. It never it.
Speaker: I actually I'm aware, you know, you express this deep awareness of that. In some sense, I'm going to find out who I am here through sharing it. Yeah, my words are leaving my mouth, but I'm not stopping before each word to say, I going to say, say, or which version? oh Oh, on my hand. I want to put it right there as I enunciate that, right? We don't have that um precognition of the experience.
Speaker: Exactly. There it is, just leaving my mouth. um And then you reflect on your own experience in a way, um but it's not necessarily what you experienced. and Yeah, there absolutely. Absolutely. And so sovereignty, right, is a mode of relation, right? Like at some sense, I share what I end up sharing and then you see it come over in me, Right.
Speaker: and then And then the way I respond to that, like, lets you know what you shared to some degree, which actually may be something that you didn't know before. right like this Right. This, this, yes, this, this, this, ah this sovereignty comes, you you know, become more in sovereign, you can become, this is the, I think this is the, the,
Speaker: the ideal thing about relationships is that, is that I can be in relationships that actually demand my sovereignty and my uniqueness and my authenticity.
Speaker: Right. So now, right. My desire to be close to you. Right. And where i belong is actually demanding my autonomy in some degree. Right.
Speaker: And so, yeah, which, which then I end up, which affords intimacy and becoming closer to the people I'm closer with, that are those people and those relationships that demand my authenticity, right? In some, in some level, which, you know, inspires me to become more of me, right? Which has me feel closer to you. That's the, that's the, uh, I think that's the, um,
Speaker: That's the possibility that that intimacy and relationships and authenticity. And it's really at the heart of the aim of what circling is, is this.
Speaker: hey Right. This this that sense of how of literally how we become people together. Yeah. So beautiful. um This is what happens when you get two philosophy people in a room.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. um Yeah. And, you know, this this conversation is being transrecorded, right? there's There's this one set of words.
Speaker: And I mean one thing, i think. I could, upon reflection, read my own words back and recognize there's 20 more ways I could see it and you're experiencing it and everybody who's listening is experiencing it. There's a single...
Speaker: set of words, however, and with this sort of endless perceptive quality to it. So how do you think about truth? Is it...
Speaker: ah but but ah but Right. I think about like so much of our, our world, um, AI, um, news and truth is really clinging to a a singularity or, or something. Um, and yet,
Speaker: that I mean, there's these ah agreed upon things, of course, because we've we've established them. Red is red and green is green. And it's not necessarily true. We just all have made that a commitment to each other. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: How do you think about truth in a way that's not as dogmatic as we've become? Yeah, totally. Well, I mean, i think
Speaker: few a few things that... that
Speaker: First of all, there's this, like, if we if we just talk about it in the realm of relationship, right? Interpersonal relationship, right?
Speaker: there's a sense there's a sense where you know i can share the truth of my experience right but then and then it evokes something in you that you reflect back to me that actually discloses more of what was true for me than i had known right and And maybe vice versa. This kind of disclosing my my experience, my own personal experience, and then being open to what comes back can reveal something even deeper or higher or more true for me, which can has this quality of drawing me in.
Speaker: Right. Then I can share that. Right. And there's something that gets reflected back to me that actually discloses more. And I think that that this this this unconcealment is truth, not not being right.
Speaker: right Right? Because most of the time, right, when people are trying to be right with each other, they're like in, they're in arguments, right? Which, you know, like those go very predictably. um Yeah. Those go very predictably. Very.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah However, when it's kind of coming from the sharing the truth of like what I can see in the present moment, right which which in some sense is the act of being vulnerable right i open up to your response to it right and if you're doing the same thing with me right i actually start to get in i start to i start to get into a an experience of the sense of truth as being inexhaustible right
Speaker: Because I think at the bottom of it, the bottom of truth, you won't find a true something true. Right. I think it's a it's it's in some senses, it's a comparative term that there's a sense of there's levels of truth. There's like modes of truth. There's a sense of truthness as such has to do with the with realness.
Speaker: Right. The sense of the real. Right. And I think at the bottom of reality, you won't found the most real thing. You find something inexhaustible in that sense. And ah that would be my way of kind of my sense anyways of of what truth is, right?
Speaker: Which is more of a, you know, if we're going to talk kind of like in in some sense philosophically, you know, you could say, With Descartes and, you know, in the modern era, truth it came to me, came to mean, um you know, something like the, when the statement correlates with the, with the event or fact in the world, right? Like when my propositions, right.
Speaker: Correlate right. With something out in the world, we call that true. Yeah. Now, the more, the like classical sense of truth was, had more to do with, um had more to do with a it was, it it had more of a contactfulness that the truth was something I over i i undergo.
Speaker: Right? like Like there was a sense of like, to the degree, like what I'm saying is fitted to the world, right? This kind of quality of contactfulness to the world.
Speaker: Thus ah more ancient philosophy has more of, it's it's a little bit more almost religious, right? It's more, it has more of the sense of being initiated into things, right? The Platonic Academy, you know, there was this kind of some mystery around, you know, this gathering part of of the element, right? of Of that you, you know,
Speaker: Truth and knowledge wasn't having the correct proposition. it was undergoing something. So the truth was, was really, you knew the truth to the degree that it was transforming you in some deep way.
Speaker: Yeah. And I mean, that wisdom is knowing you can't really know. i mean, that it's, that the singular moment doesn't happen. Yeah. And I love it. I mean, I love, I love everything you're saying. This conversation is so rich and, and it just, it just fills me so much. Thank you for coming and sharing. And I could do this for hours. I'm seeing the time and I'm like, Oh, we went into that timeless void. just got started. Oh, we just got started. Yeah. Let's do this again.
Speaker: Yeah, I would love it. I would love it for sure. And the listeners out there, if you're checking out this conversation and you're wanting more, um do you want to tell them your sites, where to find you? Yeah. yeah What's great about all this, like you get two kind of philosophically inclined people together and you go to some real deep depths. But this is there's something this is very Circling and relationship are actually things that you can become good at and learn, practically speaking, right? You can engage in. So there's a couple of different ways, right? There's um one way that you can start right now is we we have actually, for the first time, and we've created circling and way to learn the circling skills and all the things that we've been talking about, listening and speaking and speaking sovereignly.
Speaker: um into a very practical um online course that you can so you can start right away. So I'll give you a link for those. And then we have actually live events. We we have a bunch of things online and we have a bunch of things in person. We have, ah for example, we get together every Thursday. That's open to everybody where we have the community comes in practices. You can do that every Thursday night. I lead a lot of those still.
Speaker: um And then we have weekend intensives, right, ah in the Bay Area, but also online um that you can you can go you can dive deeper into it. And we also have training programs that last, you know, you know, three levels of training that last at like a year.
Speaker: So there's like a whole world to it, right? If you can't if you click on the site, you'll see ah a lot of information. You can read up on it. that I'm on a lot, like I've been on a lot of podcasts. I have my own YouTube channel. You can look up my name there.
Speaker: it is really ah It really is a whole ah whole world that is is is designed to be and is emerged to be something to to have a participatory relationship with it. So those are some of the ways.
Speaker: I love it. Thank you so much. I mean, this should have been taught in school for anybody listening. You know, this is such a great experience to, remind ourselves of our nature is to be in presence with each other in truth for whatever that means for ourselves, for the other. And you know, that it's all okay. And to learn who you are over, over lifetimes. Yeah. Well, thank you guy very much for being here. Appreciate it So good talking with you.
Speaker: All right. Next time. Yeah. Yes.
Speaker: Thank you.
