Transcript
Speaker: Hey, you, you.
Speaker: Welcome to another episode of The Art of Authenticity. I am here with actually a very good friend of mine, Michelle. Michelle Nolan is here. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker: Thanks, Laura. Thank you for having me. I am really, really looking forward to this episode because Michelle and i have a similar personality in a way of like We love the spiritual. way We love like discussing things and like the philosophy and like how it relates to our life. and and And like we're willing, I think, to have those harder conversations that sometimes make people a little uncomfortable to be honest about. So um I'm really looking forward to to sharing that with you and and appreciate you taking the time to be here with the audience because I know they will benefit.
Speaker: Thanks. I'm really happy to be here. And of course, i think meeting you has really opened me up to not just a different spiritual realm, but the authenticity.
Speaker: Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. um So Michelle, Michelle has been doing the arts for quite a long time, um photography, creative, and then kind spent spiritual her whole life. But...
Speaker: came into doing it more professionally a little later. But before we get into some of these conversations I want to have that I think push the edges of this conversation of living an authentic life. like um But before that, I want the audience to get a sense of you, your path, what it's been for you.
Speaker: um And I'm excited to hear a little deeper. i don't think I know some of this. So you you were a photographer. How long did you do that? What brought you to it? What was that trying are i sorry Yes. Well, pre-photography, I was in executive search.
Speaker: So I had no creative outlet other than enjoying art. being a curator of art, music and um music and visual art. ah But after seven years of doing the corporate world and learning a lot through that because it was a family business, I decided out of nowhere that I need to take control back in my life and do what I want to do.
Speaker: So I just said, can I swear on here? I hope I can swear. Yeah, you can swear. guys i I just said, fuck it And I am going to California um to go back to grad school. And it just happened to be a really amazing, one of the best photo and film programs.
Speaker: And um that was in my late 20s. So it was a complete departure. Wait, this podcast is all about that, that moment, right? So can can we rewind and dive in there? Okay.
Speaker: Because I think that's that's a lot of people's story, right? they they They're doing something. It's fine. Maybe they're successful. Whatever. It's checking a bunch of boxes. It's paying the bills. You're young. You don't know what you want, too. So you're just out in the world figuring it out.
Speaker: But when you said you just had a moment, can can you remember what that felt like? What that day was like? was it Yeah. um Actually... I feel like it was a slow demise, right? I mean, and I don't think anyone really wakes up and says, today I'm going to blow up my life, right? i Not many. If they do, you know, I don't think it's many. But I think over time, you know, the apathy sets in, um the boredom sets in the grind sets in. And you just start feeling extremely disconnected to your life and also the people around you. Not that I didn't love my friends and my family, but you just feel this blankness, right?
Speaker: And that's, I remember feeling that. I remember feeling like this is not me. I'm a pretty, as you know, feisty, fiery kind of girl. ah so Just a little. Just a little. Just a tad.
Speaker: And so I i just i didn't feel that anymore. like i could I didn't feel myself, right? I just didn't feel myself. And honestly, it was a strange transition because it was a family business. My father at the time wanted me to take it over.
Speaker: I was um probably be making more financially than any of my friends and peers at that time. So this wasn't a casual decision, you know? um And I respect and love my dad. So this was ah it was a hard choice. But there was a moment, I remember, um one week where I went skiing.
Speaker: And ah i was taking a bunch of pictures the whole time. and i was i just i always hung out with guys. I just, I don't know, I just have a lot of male friends. And the whole time I'm taking pictures, and one of them says like,
Speaker: do you even want to ski? Like, are you, are you going to ski or are you just gonna take pictures the whole time? You know? And I was like, huh, I really do love taking pictures. Right. And it was as simple as that. It literally is. that And that's how I work. Like it was as simple as that. And I'm like, you know what I just kind of love this. And I just got obsessed.
Speaker: I just got obsessed with it. And before I knew it, like I think a month later, I'm like, you know what? I'm going go back to school for this. And my friends, everyone around me were thought I was crazy. they thought i would They were like, Michelle, a photographer? you We've never barely seen you take a picture, right? like it really would Other than when I was on this ski trip.
Speaker: And so... Yeah, I just had this come to spiritual Jesus, if you believe in him, moment, right? And said, no, I just, I don't really care. This is the thing. I don't really care what it is.
Speaker: i just want to change my life. Yeah, but, you know, it's so fascinating because all the buzzwords of how to make that change are in your story for people listening who are like stuck and like, how do I make the decision? You know, I hear this all the time. I mention what I do for a living and it's like, wait, how do I get my life to feel more authentic, right? It's such a ah deep desire for people to have that felt sense. But those words you chose, it was just...
Speaker: bored, flat. I wasn't myself. Luckily, you knew what self meant for you. And I think some people lost themselves so young that they don't know they're fiery or whatever those words are that you say, wait, I am normally this, but I'm feeling more like that.
Speaker: um and But then you found something you love, right? And it is that simple. It's like, follow the things that bring you ah an awakened, alive, excited, joyous experience. And and that usually, i mean, you have to earn a living and and all of it, but it's usually the path. um we over We overcomplicate, I think. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I think we definitely overcomplicated. And I remember having to explain that to a lot of people at that time, right? Because tickling my world. yeah It was different. It was a different world. like the um I lived in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and ah it was a pretty mundane, go to college, get married, have some kids, 2.5, and you're in your set, right, for the rest of your life. yeah It was that type of mentality. And I was...
Speaker: not that person. i just had never been that person. and And I think I was afraid to be that person and commit to it. But that story that we have as a culture doesn't work for most people. Like something of Struggling to have kids, struggling to find that love relationship, struggling to accept they don't really want kids. Some part of the American dream or whatever this Western dream is that we put out is the only way to find any sense of peace or joy or connection to oneself, I think ultimately leads to just a midlife crisis.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, okay. So thank you. i I don't mean to stop the story, but i you you packed in so many... um Profoundly important word choices in there that i felt for people who are in that stuckness, you know, just a tip Stretch that out a little. Okay. So you're going to school, you go, your friends think you're nuts, which is another tell sign that you're on the right track typically. when you're Right. i I agree with that a hundred percent. I a hundred percent agree with that. And I think the looking back and I, and I would say this for the people that are listening, because this was, I didn't realize this till later, but I really do think this was a specific feeling of,
Speaker: When I said it didn't matter to me what I was doing, it kind of didn't matter to me because I do think energetically, as you and i both are in tune with now, as far as energies and how that things how things to create momentum, is I just needed to kind of change my life. right i I could figure out the rest through the momentum of the change, but I just needed to change my life. So whether it was photography or I wanted to be a race car driver. or I don't think it mattered at that time.
Speaker: And I know that sounds almost into this as to, well, is that authentic then? Right? Is that authentic if I'm not saying I would love to be a photographer? But in my view at that time, I thought I just need to change it.
Speaker: And if I don't have that sense of passion and love when I'm there doing it, then I can change again. Right. But that's the key is that there is no authentic spot that we land in. Authenticity is big and small choices that are true, that make us feel alive and free, not selfish, self-serving, free in the sense of like, you know, doing whatever you want and hurting people. But like, this feels like the right thing for me at this moment. It doesn't mean that it always works out. It doesn't mean that it's like the final destination and and things keep changing. And I think that's also...
Speaker: something people are looking for is an authentic place to land, not a relationship to themselves of following what's true. so So I think it is authentic the way you did it.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, thanks for affirming that. But but i i I get, it's more of the permission though, right? Like to me, that was what was so interesting to looking back at it. Like looking back, I can even say that was a little insane considering I was going to grad school. I moved to California.
Speaker: yeah um Didn't know anybody. I was abandoning my financial status, right? All of those things. um Never really, other than my little point and shoot camera I had, never took a photo class in high school.
Speaker: Yep. It's kind of insane, right? Yeah. ah But... I realized when I was there, i absolutely loved it. I absolutely loved it. And it wasn't just the photography. It was who I was while I was doing photography, right?
Speaker: It was my creative self. It was the people I was connecting to that seemed more in alignment with how I think, how I view life. It was the place I was living. I fell in love with California.
Speaker: It felt like that was me, right? Everything started falling into places. Maybe I won't be the most successful photographer. But at that moment, I felt like I was exactly where I was supposed to be.
Speaker: Right? And that's that's the best. I mean... It's the best. It's the best. And the feeling of... your your connection to yourself, that that feeling of who you are, the world around you is mirroring that back. The people, the experiences, the whole thing. That's that's authenticity, right? It's it's like a ah dynamic thing. Beautiful. Okay. So you're in grad school. You go and do photography for a career Right. So I did fall in love with it. I ended up being good at it, which, you know, luckily that was the case, right? um And then, so when I moved from California, I stayed there for a little bit and then moved to Chicago and started my business in Chicago. And ah it was, I've been a photographer now for, since 2007 when I started that business. um I've been
Speaker: kind of slowly tailoring that back and been doing something else the last five to six years. But photography has always been a part of my life and I absolutely fell in love with the experience of not just being a creator,
Speaker: and an artist um commercially, because I wasn't a fine artist, but just the lifestyle that it gave me, it was exactly what I wanted, right? I didn't want to sit at the desk. I realized there was a lot of things by myself that I didn't really understand at that time. I didn't want a nine to five. I didn't want to sit at a desk all day. i wanted activity. I'm an active person. I wanted to move. I wanted to have new experiences. I wanted to meet new people. And then I i like my freedom of my time. So that allowed me to be my own boss, be my own entrepreneur, and establish my business how I wanted to, and then create from a space that was obviously me, right? I'm making are art, making photography that was could only be made from me, not from someone else. And so that whole beautiful space storm, because it was, because it was not easy, ah really foundationally, I think, set in that I could have a life that was mine.
Speaker: o Right, right, right, right, right. Because by also listening, taking action, listening to how you feel in relation to what you're doing,
Speaker: It's like, oh, i did I did this. I didn't follow somebody else's plan, family's plan, friends that are saying, what are you nuts? But i I listened. And there's something extraordinarily empowering, right? Like I did this and I can have this. um As opposed to being in fear that if we listen to the deepest parts of us that would like to present to the world,
Speaker: Right? we have a People have a lot of fear of that. Is that how you make Yeah. and i And it did trigger back. um I mean, you know I'm psychological, so it did trigger back to me during probably what I found like in my childhood that was always suppressed for me was my creativity, my my whimsical side, my artistic weirdness, my rebelliousness, my, you know, everything that would not fit in a box somewhere. yeah Right. That was all where I grew up um was very traditional.
Speaker: right And so not just my family, but the the environment that I was in was very traditional. And I never felt like I fit that. So I always felt like that side of me was suppressed, even though...
Speaker: I would find other ways for that that outlet to come up, maybe personally, but I never claimed it, right? I never claimed it as, oh, this is, I want to live my life this way. It's not about finding an outlet in the back room of a bar somewhere. You know, we don't want to do that. Like, we want it and we want our life to be lived that way in the open. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. No, that's right. You know, I mean, a kid who's a young science-based kid or math-based kid isn't like, oh, I got to go be an artist and I'm going to just do my math in the background and in like a math club or something forever because I don't know, you know, like there's paths that are very clear for those types of jobs. And they're very lucky that that that's happening.
Speaker: held in culture at such a high level and structured. um But for people who are artistic or entrepreneurial or spiritual or all the other things, it can be daunting to step into it because it's not a tried and true path. And people say, are you crazy? And you didn't make any money? that that Right? Yeah.
Speaker: Well, good. Yeah. I love that. I don't think I knew the the full story. So Okay. Fast forward. You're doing this. You've got success. You're living the life. You've got them like the the rock star, you know, Michelle is coming out. She's having fun. um What was the transition?
Speaker: and from my understanding, you've had a sense of a spiritual belief since you were young. But when did you decide to...
Speaker: open yourself up to doing this as a professional thing? Yeah. ah Well, I grew up very religious. My father, before he met my mother, was a Catholic priest. So i have a very strong background in Catholicism. And i grew up in that house, which I think a lot of people probably have this story, right? Religion is sometimes imposed on versus chosen. And i think...
Speaker: I learned at a very early age, because I'm naturally rebellious, that I just rebelled against it to rebel against it, right? I didn't want to be told what to think or how to feel, what to believe.
Speaker: So that rebelliousness always almost attached me, what I found later for myself, almost attached me to spirituality in a very specific way.
Speaker: I had a strong aversion to it. So although at that time I didn't realize that that aversion was actually pointing me in a direction I needed to go, ah that attachment was real, right? It was real. like i It would make me cringe, honestly, when people would talk about God or...
Speaker: religion or like I just, it would send chills down my spine because i had such a strong aversion to how I was brought up in a very strong religious upbringing.
Speaker: and And then breaking out of that later and understanding the depth of what I really learned during that childhood, which was the connection not to the religion, but the connection to spirit.
Speaker: And the connection to source and the connection to energy outside of myself and the connection to the collective and the connection to all. Yeah. Right. So that aversion and, but I, like I said, it still was an attachment, even though I couldn't stand it, it there was still a strong feeling about it is it turned into a focus.
Speaker: right It turned into a focus because in my deepest, darkest place, which was towards the end of my marriage, it was the one thing that grounded me.
Speaker: So I started to focus in on there to just kind of bring myself centered again. I didn't know how to bring myself centered again. And that really, really brought me there.
Speaker: So it almost... What about it did that? how did you What piece was centering? ah i so, you know, I, my marriage was difficult because, um my ex had severe mental health issues. And at that time i have so much empathy for people with mental health,
Speaker: problems But at that time, I didn't understand how to navigate it. I didn't understand how to work with that energy. I didn't just understand how to be in it, right? So it was almost like...
Speaker: it allowed, gave me peace, right? It gave me peace, being able to meditate, being able to just pull into myself and then pray in a way that I wouldn't even call, at that time, I wouldn't even think it was prayer. It was like, I just was looking for something outside of my environment to give me solace.
Speaker: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I get that. That's beautiful. Like extracting out the part that is connected and meaningful for you in this very structured system that it maybe dictates how we're supposed to do it. You found the parts that actually aligned you and felt meaningful and supported you through through a difficult phase. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. And it was, um I think, you know, and I have such respect now. I mean, my dad has passed, but, and we were always close, but I have such a respect for what he taught me as a priest.
Speaker: um Even though I didn't know him when he was practicing as a priest, but I don't think that ever goes away, you know, ah when you decide to make that your life's calling. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: But I had such a respect for what I learned from him about the uniqueness of your own relationship with God, your own relationship with spirit, source, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker: doesn't matter to me anymore. But it that it is so personal. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. So here you are having these experiences What, because I know you've got like this badass ability to channel using tarot cards, but what what allowed you to take that and consider yet another shift from this thing that you actually really love and you're successful at and integrating that into your professional life as opposed to just keeping it private? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And that was another um permission moment for me, honestly. And you understand that, Laura, right? Like, this is what you do. I mean, your life is like this, too, like and in it in its own way, like in its own story. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: And so I think... um I don't think there was any difference. Like that when I look back on it, I don't think there was any difference in my permission to send myself to grad school for photography as there was for deciding that I was going to start reading tarot.
Speaker: Right? It was the the same kind of moment. It was the same kind of, for me, right? The same kind of experience of saying, you know what? I've always loved tarot and I've always loved astrology. Like all my friends know this since I've been a teenager. Right?
Speaker: It was the party trick for me. Right. It was the hey, let's get together and play light as a feather, stiff as a board when when know was a kid. Right. it was always these weird moments of like, oh, my God, Michelle with the with these witchy ways, you know, like she's always playing to playing around over here. And that was such a sideline thing for me, right? It was just like creativity was backroomed for me. This was also backroomed for me, right? I grew up in a very religious household. Like, I'm not going to be reading tarot and doing astrology, right? So it was almost this...
Speaker: permission to be like, wait, I love this. I love this, right? Like, why would i just like a suppressed my creativity, why would I not pull that out into an open space and share that?
Speaker: Right? it I mean, that's real. And it's like, what were you telling yourself at that moment that would hold you back? Well, I didn't want to be judged.
Speaker: Yeah. Right? I mean, who, you know, yeah i'm a little I'm a little cuckoo. I mean, we're all a little cuckoo, right? Like in our own dysfunctional ways. And I didn't want to, again, i the way I grew up, I mean, if anyone knows Wisconsin, we know what kind of conservative, very cookie cutter place that can be.
Speaker: The Midwest is like that in general, sometimes, not all the time. um But then, like I said, with my upbringing and then honestly on top of my personality, right? My personality is very success oriented. I'm very driven. um of a very certain way i I view competition and success and what is ah acceptable and what isn't, right? That's something in my whole personality that I've had to work with my whole life. Yeah.
Speaker: And so like when I went to school, I wanted to be the best photographer, right? I wanted, I don't want to just be a photographer. I want to be the best photographer. Right. I had the same view about spirituality, which makes no sense. I totally understand that now. it makes But that was real. That was like a real moment for me. Right. And so what do I do when I'm faced with that? I spent years researching, learning, learning,
Speaker: just absorbing every single thing I could get my hands on to make myself knowledgeable. I mean, right? It's the same story over and over, but here here you are in a successful career, young family business.
Speaker: It's nuts. Like, why would you give that up for something that might not have that same success trajectory? Yeah. Now you're doing it again with the spirituality piece, right? And I think we're all really trained that it's not ambitious. It's not like real. It's not like solid. It's, you know, people call this world woo-woo and stuff, you know, and people like me because they're like, you're not woo-woo. It's so cool. Like you're like a little normal and and ands this isn't that abnormal and it's just been given such um a bad rap, but it is, it's that it's not just afraid of being judged, but there's self-judgment, right?
Speaker: Yes. I mean, I'm a heavy self-judger. I know you are too. Everybody is, right? How how do we live in this world without self-judgment? Right, right. And it's...
Speaker: I mean, ego death is real, right? I mean, you have to go through it a few times in different ways. um But I think for me with spirituality, I had such a deep ah aversion, resentment to it. i was It was tied into something that I felt like suppressed me versus freed me.
Speaker: And then when I kind of flipped the script on that and realized that, no, this is freedom for me, not suppression. Beautiful. So here you are in this transition, giving yourself this opportunity to do it again.
Speaker: What would you say was different about transitioning? i know you said it's very similar. i know about transitioning from the the the work with your parents to photography, photography to spirituality As you're making this change into spirituality, is there anything though that is, um you mentioned like, you know, judgment, anything that's a little bit different or would you literally say that it's kind of one in the same?
Speaker: I think the depth is different, right? Like I have a tendency to look maybe because of what I do now, but i look at the threads of my experience in my life and how it all ties together. What's the nuance in it all?
Speaker: Why was I dancing around, going to school, my undergrad for psychology, then going for art, working with my family's business that was really about coaching?
Speaker: even though it in a traditional format to executives, and then into tarot, right? Like i was i've um I put that all together and I've realized that it's one and the same in the change, but the depth is much bigger, right? The depth of the and the breadth of not just the experience, but of the ah authenticity of who I am, right? I i wasn't just a creative person.
Speaker: I was also highly psychological and analytical and research-oriented. And that's always been a part of me too. And then I also was witchy and weird and loved the esoteric.
Speaker: right That was also a part of me too. And so I think the depth of the experience, what was what was different for me in doing tarot now, is that the change was similar as far as just the...
Speaker: Fuck it, let's go all in. i just love this. Why not do this? But it feels like it's more holistic. right It feels like this is these are all parts of me now.
Speaker: This isn't just one part of me or a missing part of me that I was filling a void with before. Now these are all individual parts of me that I've kind of just thrown on the table.
Speaker: i mean, not literally, but kind of literally, I guess. um Thrown on the table and said, look, all these things are these all these things are me All these things are me. So there was if there was one thing I remember learning my days as an executive consultant...
Speaker: and coaching high-level people into changing their careers, which is really somewhat what we're talking about too, right? was Part of this was like, who are you? Right? Like, like that just the basic like the basic question, like, who are you?
Speaker: yeah Yeah. Right? And we're not talking about the job description. We're not talking about the skills that you have. We're not talking about um what you've been told.
Speaker: Like, who are you? That's the question. That's the question, right? Who are we? I mean, that's the question of authenticity. and we often put it into identity structures. I am and we fill in the blank of identity.
Speaker: a mother, this job, whatever, age, gender, sex, which are, you know, structurally who we are and in terms of culture. But like what people are mostly asking is that deeper, what am I called towards? What is this deeper piece of me?
Speaker: How does it express into the world? Yeah. And that authentic piece is more your soul self that wants to come through. And we don't know who that is. We've lost track of that through over-identification of the physical personality of us, which is also an important piece. um So, okay.
Speaker: Hard question. Give it to me, Laura. Taking the kid gloves off. Okay.
Speaker: These transitions, I mean, we're we're self-judging. We're putting ourselves through it. I think part of the self-help community says, follow your truth in its bliss. um You know, get past your ego, have an egoic death, and and then you will arrive somewhere. When I get there, I'm going to be at peace all the time. And, yeah you know, and I mean, I'm not going to lie. Like, i do feel...
Speaker: um a lot of calm, peace, connection, ability to be with myself, relate to myself. I know how to feel what's true for me. um I'm comfortable with myself, but I also struggle with um
Speaker: How do I keep emerging as the energy of me wants to express in new ways, different ways, bigger ways, as my personality is like judging, right? Like, oh, what are people going to say? Or what does that mean about you? Are you going to make any money? All the different things.
Speaker: And I don't think people talk about that piece in in the depth that maybe you and I might over dinner. Right. Over drinks, because we have to be drinking. And exactly. You're spiritual. You drink. Oh, what? You know...
Speaker: So what like there's a shadow side to this piece and the matrix shows it with the blue blue pill and Plato talked about it 2,500 years ago, right?
Speaker: You have the cave and you leave the cave. And when you're out of the cave, you yes, you see reality as different, right? you're you're in the You're in the sun and you realize that people are looking at reflections and they're not seeing the true nature of themselves in life.
Speaker: But the shadow side is you're outside of culture and what that does to friendships, relationships, your connections to others, the the sense of of belonging or closeness.
Speaker: How has that been for you? Yeah, I think that is absolutely the shadow side, at least in my experience, for my spiritual journey. um And I would say I see this in others too. like and ah you know In my work particularly, when working with other people, when they kind of decide to dive into a certain realm, not everyone can go with, right? Not everyone can go with into that realm. Or even in your in your own first personal space of...
Speaker: kind of extracting the things out of your life that don't feel like you, right? And just honestly admitting it and and just being honest about it, right? People... In my view, people have a very, very difficult time with honesty.
Speaker: I think truth, when we say, yeah, live your truth, personal truth, all of that bullshit, I kind of fucking hate it. But honestly, i just think when people are honest, really honest, not like saying it in this commercialized packaged goods kind of spiritual way. But like they just say what's on their mind in this moment, what I'm feeling in is in this place, what it is that i I want and I don't want, and I'm sorry if I'm offending you or not offending you. I think that's the place where people can't stand that level of honesty, right? They can't...
Speaker: they can't stomach what happens in the consequence of the wake of that honesty. And I think I found relationships are the biggest ones that hit. that hit Yeah. and And meaning the relationship starts to dissolve. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Relationships, friendships, um love partnerships. Right. um Or you to hide yourself to manage it a little.
Speaker: Right, right, right. And I think um the level of connection, right? I think it's not just about your world changing, right? If you change and you're more revealed, I think there's that mirror that you talked about.
Speaker: you're all of a sudden everyone else around you feels more revealed, right? And then you can't not see it. Like you can't go back and take the red pill. You just can't do it, right? So the idea I think is...
Speaker: And i I know sometimes it sounds almost arrogant, but I don't mean it to sound arrogant. But the the depth and the level of connection that you desire from another person, that level of honesty in your relationships and the people around you, and purely just maybe even authenticity of others around you, you can't live without it.
Speaker: Yeah. you You literally can't live without it. It becomes a show. Right? so
Speaker: It's hard. You know, the the Four Agreements, the book. m He wrote one, um Mastery of of Self, and he talks about how The point isn't that you don't wear masks.
Speaker: You know, when I speak to my son, I'm not going to speak exactly the way I might with you having cocktails. You know, it's it's a little varied, but I know I'm putting the mask on.
Speaker: I know I'm in relation to him because 21, because... He needs his mom to speak a certain way and not to speak a certain way or something. But it's like I've accepted it. I've made that agreement, but I'm not doing it unconsciously. I'm aware. And it's like, but I know there's a different full version of me that is...
Speaker: behind each of the masks that I might need to wear. Coming on this podcast, is this a thousand percent of me? Of course not. Like there's a piece where, you know, because we're trying to um keep a conversation going in a short window, we can't just pause and be like, let's go get a coffee and come right back. Cause you know, the audience wouldn't want to sit while we made coffee. Right. So there's a part where it's a bit of a performance to keep the energy um the the way it needs to be. But that, that knowing is there And you can't you can't not do it.
Speaker: And i keep feeling the word grace comes to mind. Yeah, yeah. um Like being in that for yourself and allowing others to do it without fixing, without solving, without... Because truth is uncomfortable because it's a question of what do I do with that? Like I'm... Some people want to fix. Some people want to um run. People um feel bad for you or or want to take pity or whatever. Whatever it is that comes up within them instead of
Speaker: for me, this idea of grace, like holding the space of, well, this is the human experience, you know, and, and thank you for sharing what's true. to Yeah. I think, um, I found at least I've noticed this in other people. i think that I work with too is like, there's a stage that you get at two with spirituality where you feel like almost like you're better than other people.
Speaker: Right? yeah You're like, well, I got to figure it figured out over here. So sorry, everybody. Like, you're just not here. Right? and it It's been there. That's a terrible phase. you all have We all have. Like, where we all have been here. If you've taken any type of, decided to take any type of spiritual journey, whether it's even just...
Speaker: therapy or psychological introspection or reflection, whatever. We've all been there to that place where I've figured it out now and no one else has it figured out. Right. right Right.
Speaker: And that is a stage. And I tell people all the time, I'm like, glad you got here. Right. Because now you can see that. And then the next stage is how do you manage your life and How do you go about your business? How do you interact in the world and have relationships when people don't feel like how you want them to feel? Uh-huh.
Speaker: Right? Right. how How do you do it? Right? And what is that spiritual grounding and perception and understanding and empathy and compassion to actually still love? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: the people around you that you're not trying to, like you said, fix or take with you or have them understand you or have them agree with you or even have them care at all that you are spiritual.
Speaker: Yep. Right. Yes. i I remember the day i said, i feel like I got this thing worked out. Yeah. I saw a spiritual teacher on Oprah and he said, the worst thing i ever did was say I got it figured out. And I was like, I don't agree. i feel like I got this. Because he said the universe came in and hit him with a two by four. and And that happened, right? Like it was like, oh, you got this? Okay, cool. Let's layer up like another 10 years of lessons for you, Laura. Like, you know, did just to make it really interesting. But I think all the words you just said
Speaker: of The first stage is figuring out a little a comfort with yourself as life is so tumultuous and so complicated. That you're not like, in my opinion, I'm not in the heat of the storm. i can find the space. Like, okay, life's not happening to me. My thoughts are not happening to me. My emotional state isn't happening to me. I have an ability to observe them and recognize this is life's flowing. And somewhere in me, I feel safe and I'm okay.
Speaker: But that other part of the interrelated where people are, where life is, you can... I think quietly be in in an argument. Why isn't everything else like that and not realize it?
Speaker: Is that a fair way say And pissed off, honestly. but ah Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A little um self-righteous, right? Self-righteous. Yeah. and And, I'm not going to, so I mean, I know I can be, have a big personality. So like, I know i can be demanding,
Speaker: especially with people around me. like i Like I want them to experience things. Like i it more for the joy and the fun of it. I'm like, you know, no, try this. it's You're going to love it, right? Like this is a cool experience. but And I think spirituality for me for a while was like that, right? Like, no, like, come on. like Come on, everybody. You know, like it's this is a great this is a great time. yeah Until i realized it's a terrible time, you know? Let's talk about that. So, you know, what's...
Speaker: The breakdown breakthroughs, right? The the the the the part we've been talking about on the show of of of the recognition, okay, this isn't the career I want. Okay, now it is time to do Tarot, go through it again.
Speaker: that
Speaker: um process of getting truthful with oneself. it's It's just not cute. it's There's no other way to say it. It's very difficult. And it's much more tumultuous before you find the next phase of calm um than I think people talk about.
Speaker: Is that yeah what you would... I agree. And I and i think I've... um Again, I'm analytical, so I'm always analyzing other people and myself. ah And I realized in those transitions,
Speaker: and i I think I've noticed this in people I work with too, Your most vulnerable places of your gifts and who you really are are exactly the place you want to protect the most from, obviously, judgment, but from exposure.
Speaker: Right? It is such a sensitive, sensitive spot. Yeah. Right? And even talking about...
Speaker: Um, cause I think it's the most real part of you. Yeah. Right. It's the most, it's not just the most revealing, but it's, if you are, if you are put your real self, your real self out in the world for people to see judge, comment on reject, um,
Speaker: You have to have us very strong, I think at this point, it's not an ego as far as having a strong ego to withstand it. It's having, i think, a spiritual perspective on your authenticity.
Speaker: Right? At that point, to me, that is what enlightenment really is about. Right? Say more about that. So what's the perspective?
Speaker: I think when you get to the realest spot in you, right, that it's you regardless of what you've learned, what you've been taught, what others think, um what boxes they fit in.
Speaker: the progression of getting to that layer, right? To getting to that core. Because I think it's a progression. I don't think it happens in one fell swoop. The progression of that is levels of enlightenment, right? It's levels of enlightenment that our essence, our core is spiritual.
Speaker: it's it's It's energetic, right? It's source itself. Yeah. So when we think of that, The spiritual experience to me, the spiritual journey, isn't about becoming one with source. It's a becoming one with you.
Speaker: Which is source, yeah. Which is source, right? but it's So the realer it gets, the more spiritual it gets. Yeah. I don't think you can detangle that.
Speaker: Yeah. Right. Because these questions of self-love, love yourself, put up boundaries, right? i spent a decade now thinking about these things with guides, with myself.
Speaker: And I'm like, I think we talk about it in a strange way, like a saccharine kind of, I love myself. Like, you know, like, let me meditate and pray on that. But what do we even mean by that? And your framing is so beautiful because As you want to be authentic, as you want your life to um manifest in relation to what is your deepest truth, right? Like I want the external to mirror the internal.
Speaker: um But I go deeper and deeper and I put out that internal and that internal. It's scarier and scarier because what if people don't love me, it? But if you look at the spiritual lens, if you go through the enlightenment process, the it is energy and the energy is love itself. And you can't reject that because it's infinite. And so how do you reject what is this timeless energy?
Speaker: essence of you that is, that that you can't reject that. That's like rejecting air. It's like fast and everywhere and timeless and... Here it is in my lungs, exhaling it, right? Like you can't reject air. You can't reject the energy that fuels our ability to be alive, right?
Speaker: ah That comes through us. And so what is that fear at its core? It's a fear of rejecting a concept of me. And so the deeper you get to it, it's like, oh, well, even if people would judge if they say that whatever they say, this part is not really actually touchable. And so I don't actually even need boundaries. It doesn't mean I want people around me who are unpleasant and all this stuff, but can they impact the core of the essence of me?
Speaker: I would argue no. Yeah, I would 100% agree with you. But I do think those layers... of stripping away like an onion are really just layers of fear, right? They're layers of fear, the mass, however you want to put it. They're just layers and layers and layers of fear. yeah And then when we get down to it, you know, where true pure love is, fear does not exist. So it's not there, right? So it is indestructible, but it also is...
Speaker: vulnerable, right? It's like the paradox of both. It is. and And then even when you have that, say, recognition moment, which is lovely,
Speaker: it doesn't mean it sticks. And I think that's the other piece, you know, you're, you re-identify with the structures of you, your fears, rejection, and then you have to come back. Right. And it's, it's truly like an a a process, um much like an athlete who doesn't just stay in shape, they have to work out every day, you know, and I think to stay connected to that core,
Speaker: like the part of you that's like, oh, wait, there it is. It's a timeless little be piece of me. I just found that. um How does that feel? it feels indifferent to all of this. It's like neither happy nor sad. It's just,
Speaker: there, right? and yeah it's Yeah. And then like you said too, which I don't know if you believe this or i'm curious what your thoughts are about this, but I also think because that part of you is infinite, right? If that's source itself, it's that's love.
Speaker: If that's the pure essence of you, it's energy stripped away from fear or masks or anything. If that is infinite, then that's also an entire cavernous depth to explore.
Speaker: So it's almost like I just started. Yes. I thought I got here and then i realized, holy shit, it's infinite.
Speaker: Yeah. It's funny. There's that Buddha quote, right? Before enlightenment, i chopped wood. After enlightenment, I chopped wood, right? Because ah there's a, there's a,
Speaker: mundane-ness to it. and And then at the same time, once you have a relationship to that energy of self, it is infinite and then kind of like the playful parts to what that means in your life and how you access it and how you utilize it and bring it through, you know, um, how do you, is if you're creative, how do you pull more of that energy of self into your creative works? If you're in love, how do I show up more from that energy, right? Through the eyes, through the face, like all the ways that it can,
Speaker: um bring itself through you as the vessel that the energy wishes to speak through. Right. And that, and that's where I think is the heart, at least in the work that I've done with people, i feel like this is the hardest spot. I'm not, I'm not saying it's easy to get to kind of a spiritual recognition of self,
Speaker: But I do think it's much harder to maintain it. I think it's much harder to maintain because that um forces you now to go out in the world and use it and integrate it.
Speaker: Well, there's a ah reckoning, I think, right? um So you take the blue pill and now, oh no, there's this entire style of how I interact with the world that I think people don't talk about. And it is so difficult and maintaining it um You know, you go to the gym and people are just sweating and looking crazy and sore and getting massages. They don't feel any kind of way. I got to maintain my body. But like maintaining this relationship to self, to source, to the energy of you, I think we feel a little bad that I didn't get there and stay there and I didn't, it's not easy. And there's just something very strange about this industry that really impacted me. i i thought, what am I missing that it's not just like, you know, you do the double backflip, like in the Olympics, you land it and you're done, right? i think it's Like, yeah yeah, like I should land this feeling in my body and and never need to do another thing about it.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I think um people have asked me
Speaker: you know, since I'm in the healing modality, people have asked, well, when am I done? Right. Right? Like, am I healed? Like, is this, when am I healed? And I'm like, well, that's the sick joke because you're not ever.
Speaker: So, ah I mean, I think that the the point though is... not to be healed, right? Like I think I have a really strong feeling about that. Like I don't think it's about healing. I think it is about understanding and acceptance and living living with your shadow, living with your wounds, living with the world, living with it, living in it.
Speaker: Yes. Not healing it and getting rid of it and isolating from it and pretending it doesn't exist. We're human. To be human is to...
Speaker: contend with all the humanness, which judges, which has shame, which seeks approvals, the whole thing. And there's nobody who's outside of that.
Speaker: I mean, um it's just your relationship to it and and how quickly can you return back to the essence of you and and start all over. I mean, your body needs how many things per day to maintain its ability to function. I love that you said that. i I'm so completely, utterly sick of, fatigued by, over this idea of breaking down, healing, healing, healing, breaking down, healing, healing.
Speaker: it It is necessary at times, but we also want to live with the experience of being human, which can't be perfected. It just can't. we're go to know and i and either can And either can, you know, living as an enlightened being, right? We can't do that either, right? and I don't care what Shaolin monk you've met. Like, it's, you can't, right? Like, therere everyone here is still human. Everyone here is still not of that energy. Yeah, absolutely. Well, i appreciate you sharing that. And,
Speaker: um The honesty, you know, it's just something that I've been wanting to push myself to talk about more. um It's on my mind a lot lately how much people suffer from shame that they're not getting this right.
Speaker: I went through a phase of, you know, oh my God, am I not getting this right? And and and reorganized myself like there is no right to this. Like that that's it's it's a contending with on on a regular basis and and that's okay.
Speaker: So in your practice with Tarot, I've had the privilege of having a session with you.
Speaker: Why do you feel having a relationship to guidance, you do it with the Tarot, but why do you think that that is so meaningful for people, impactful?
Speaker: You know, I have my bias about it, but you work with clients all the time. You go into their energy, you tell them these, you know, wild truths and break them open to seeing themselves in new ways. Why is that helpful in life?
Speaker: Well, I think it gets them into that space because it's rare. It's rare to have time for it. It's rare to, like I said, give yourself permission to be in that space with your soul, with with with yourself, really. Like, ah i I don't feel like...
Speaker: in our practices, um sure, religious practice, in therapy, because I'm kind of in that realm, that we are not blending together.
Speaker: Like religion isn't blending together psychology and science. And what I found is like therapy isn't blending in the spiritual. Right. And so for me, this this connection of understanding self is understanding the spiritual.
Speaker: It is both. Like it is both at all times. So I think it's so important. I they believe it's so important for people to give them themselves permission to understand their spiritual self.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. right to learn about it, to get to know that energy of themselves. It's so important. If they don't know if they they haven't even met their spiritual self yet,
Speaker: It's a fun ride. It is. And the difference in my mind is the this the self you can get to know through maybe conversations with friends or therapy is much more of my personality.
Speaker: But there is in all of us, I believe, a longing to be seen on a deeper level. Like we are all just craving this see me, see me, see me energy. Right. And then when we get seen, we're like, ah, this is so scary. I don't know. Will I be rejected? And we talked about that, but I think the spiritual modalities, there's a feeling of being seen at that level. And that's how you get to know it. Somebody's speaking it and you're like, oh yeah, that, that feels so true for me in a way that I don't think friends or or psychology can come close to.
Speaker: And I think it's changing. I mean, it's it's it's evolving, right? I mean, like you and I wouldn't even be doing the practices we are if more people weren't like, I want to try that. I want to give that a shot or what is that about? So I absolutely love that I think this is all evolving in that direction. Yeah, people are more open to it. People are more open to it, right? Yeah.
Speaker: And I also i think it's because everyone really knows what's becoming more real, which is that it is true that there are things that we just don't see, touch, understand that actually impact us every day.
Speaker: right So even if you aren't looking at it from a lens of God or the universe, even if you are just looking at it from the lens of quantum physics, it's still meaningful.
Speaker: Hell yeah. Right? Michelle, thank you so much for gifting us with your time, with your beautiful conversation, your story, for being vulnerable and open. If people are looking to book with you, spend time with you, i have had a couple readings. You're amazing. How do they find you? How do they connect to you?
Speaker: I hate to say it. I do not have a web website yet. I mean, it's been years, years. And, you know, i don't know if you don't need it, that's great. Well, let's not say I don't need it. But um please just email me. It's the easiest way. M at M T Nolan, N-O-L-A-N dot com.
Speaker: Perfect. We'll have it on the show notes, in the videos. Thank you so, so much for joining us, for having this conversation. And I just appreciate you very much.
Speaker: Oh, I do too, Laura. Thank you for having me. This has been great. Thank you.
