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From Pitch to Partnership: Turning Ghosted Prospects into Real Client Relationships
117 Plays1 month ago
Are your prospects ghosting you? Are sales cycles dragging on while “just checking in” emails disappear into the void? Deals take longer, inboxes stay silent, and selling on price feels like a race to the bottom. Staffing sales has shifted — and if you’re still relying on old tactics, you’re already behind. In this episode of Staffing Made Simple, we unpack what it really takes to sell consultatively in today’s market, how to differentiate beyond filling orders, and how aligning sales, marketing, and ops can turn stalled conversations into real momentum.
That’s why we invited Mark Winter, Principal CEO of WinSource Group, to join the conversation. With more than 20 years in staffing — from running branches to leading sales enablement for a multi-billion-dollar organization — Mark shares practical strategies for building stronger pipelines, tightening execution, and helping teams sell with confidence in a tougher market. If you’re tired of being ghosted and competing on price, this episode delivers insights you can put to work right away.
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Transcript
The Changing Landscape of Staffing Sales
00:00:00
Speaker
Staffing sales is ever evolving and it's changed more in the past few years than it ever has before. Prospects don't pick up the phone, sales cycles are longer, checking in emails might as well go straight to the spam box.
00:00:12
Speaker
In this episode of Staffing Made Simple, we're talking about what it really means to be a consultative salesperson in this market. How do you stand out? How do you actually fix client problems instead of just filling orders?
00:00:25
Speaker
Let's talk about how to get your sales, marketing, and ops all pulling in the same direction.
Podcast and Guest Introductions
00:00:31
Speaker
If you're tired of chasing and being ghosted by prospects and you're selling on price, not value, this will be a great episode for you.
00:00:40
Speaker
Welcome to Staffing Made Simple, podcast series powered by Simple VMS. Welcome back to Staffing Made Simple, brought to you as always by Simple, the most agency-friendly and agency-preferred VMS on the market. I'm Casey Wagenfield, going on 17 years in the industry. I've got the hairline to prove it.
00:01:01
Speaker
Current senior sales executive at Simple. Today, we're talking about what it really looks like to sell consultatively in a market where buyers are harder to reach, cycles are longer, and just checking in isn't cutting it.
00:01:11
Speaker
And as always, joining me, my co-host, Senior Vice President at Simple and a guy that knows a little about a lot, Mr. Rob Geist. What's up, Rob? Facts, Casey, facts.
00:01:23
Speaker
Our guest, he's not just a familiar face at every staffing event we're at. He's also truly a great friend. He works closely with us at Simple as a trusted advisor and consultant.
00:01:33
Speaker
He's the principal and CEO of the Windsource Group. He spent years driving sales performance while keeping things simple and practical. Over the last 20 years, he's pretty much done it all in staffing sales, from running branches to leading sales enablement for multi-billion dollar publicly traded staffing company.
Mark's Staffing Sales Journey and Insights
00:01:52
Speaker
Now spends his time helping staffing firms build real sales strategies, tighten up their processes and train their teams to actually execute. Mark, we're glad that you're finally on Staffing Made Simple.
00:02:04
Speaker
Yeah, man. Had to try the rest before you get the best. Is that the deal? Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure, Mark. And real quick for the listeners, I'm sure a lot of people already know who you are. You're well known in the industry, but for the folks listening who might not know who you are, can you maybe just tell them a little about you, who WindSource is, what you guys do and the problems you guys solve?
00:02:22
Speaker
Sure. I have been in staffing since Blackberries were cool and I have no hairline. So it's been a long time. 26 years. I've been in every sales role out there. Still love to sell.
00:02:33
Speaker
So Winsource does coaching, training, and consulting in the sales staffing space. That's our whole bag. Our whole thing is customer facing. We are all sales all the time. I actually worked with Mark at the staffing firm I was at, and he was an advisor and consultant for us. And it's just great to work with. we try to We try to have a lot of fun. And much like simple, our mantra at Winsource is smart sales simplified. We try to keep things easy and simple. Don't overcomplicate the system. We're not in a complicated business.
00:03:02
Speaker
As Mark said, his headline shows, he's been doing this a super long time. He's been in the industry forever.
Understanding Consultative Selling
00:03:07
Speaker
Mark, what feels different about selling staffing now versus five or even 10 years ago?
00:03:13
Speaker
I would say five years ago, we were having customer conversations about how to better utilize staffing. We were having conversations around vendor management and that sort of thing.
00:03:23
Speaker
Now we're having conversations with customers about how to reduce their dependency on staffing. They're trying to figure out completely new solutions it's around like, how do I do this total workforce management thing And do I need staffing companies or do I need to do it myself or do I need technology?
00:03:41
Speaker
So the conversation shifted a ton. That's a good point. And we're talking all about consultative sales, right? And consultative selling. And that's a buzzword to some, probably the ones that aren't doing it. But when you say consultative selling and staffing really comes down to three things, what they hire for, how it impacts their business and how they can do it better.
00:03:59
Speaker
Now, when you say consultative sales for staffing, what do you actually mean by that? So consultative selling is really about knowing your customer's business, not knowing your segment of your customer's business, but knowing your customer's business in its entirety. So the first question that you mentioned of the three, Casey, was know what they hire for. We could ask that at a staffing conference and say, do you know what your customers hire for? And the answer we'll get most likely is yeah, they hire forklift drivers or administrative staff or IT help or help desk help.
00:04:30
Speaker
No, that's not what they hire for. They hire to get a job done. And you knowing what job they're trying to get done, that's the thing that makes you consultative. Not knowing the roles that they have open that they post on Indeed. Those are two very different things.
00:04:43
Speaker
So you have to know and understand not just the impact on staffing of your customer, but impact on staff management on your customer's customer.
00:04:53
Speaker
What does that mean for throughput, productivity, customer satisfaction on their end, not just our end, not just fill rates? I don't know how many times I've seen in the past, you're filling the same job for a client and they have no idea you can fill other jobs, right? Well, it's hard to call it for yourself a consultant when you don't even know the jobs that your clients are hiring for, or they're using your competitors for other jobs that they didn't know you could even staff for.
00:05:15
Speaker
Or you didn't know that they had a similar business in the town next door or the building out back or that they were connected to a logistics company that was owned by their parent company. You know you know what I mean? Like there's so much to dig for that could produce additional opportunity for us. But also if you're a true consultant, help you understand the inner workings of their business.
00:05:36
Speaker
I interviewed a guy. I was like, why are you looking to move out of staffing? What interests you about moving into the VMS? And he said, man, I just feel like everything's so transactional. It was a red flag to me because that person should be making it more consultative. So...
00:05:53
Speaker
If I'm a rat for a staffing company listening to this and I think, yeah, I'm a consultative salesperson, what are some signs that I'm actually consultative and not transactional?
00:06:04
Speaker
So let me start with the flip side of that. What would be signs that you are not consultative? Because there's some people out there, so let's just call them out, right? Make them feel really guilty. If you bring an agreement or quote to your first or second meeting, you're not being consultative.
Effective Client Engagement Strategies
00:06:21
Speaker
If you are thinking that you're going to close business on your first or second meeting, chances are you're not being consultative. If your primary entry point into an organization is calling companies that have a job posting on Indeed, you're probably not being consultative.
00:06:38
Speaker
So consultative selling is not just about asking questions. It's about asking questions that are relevant to the success of your client's business. That's the true consultant. So if that's the case, then before I'm proposing solutions or before I'm bringing an agreement to the table, i have to know what success looks like. i have to know that my client's actually doing something that it's working or it's not working.
00:07:03
Speaker
I have to understand what the impact of my help is on that whole thing. Really at the heart of a staffing sale, what we're really saying is when you engage with a new staffing client, you're saying,
00:07:14
Speaker
Hey, you're likely already using staffing or you're trying to fulfill your staffing needs by yourself. I'm going to knock on your door and I'm going to tell you all about Mark incorporated this new staffing company that you may or may not heard of.
00:07:26
Speaker
And I'm going to try to get you to change what you're doing today. so first order of business is I'm selling change because I know that they're either going to change vendors or they're going change process going to change something if they bring me in. Right? So that's the first thing i have to know. Well, I have to understand what the impact of that change is on their business.
00:07:42
Speaker
And so few staffing salespeople really know. So what they end up with is this crappy approach of, well, we can do that too. How much are you pay now?
00:07:53
Speaker
Tell me about your current vendor. Let me hear a little bit about your pain. That's not consultative. That's just hoping. That reeks of desperation. It's funny the things you mentioned about being transactional. The only reason sales reps do them is because leadership.
00:08:08
Speaker
Take the contract to the first meeting. Why haven't you closed this deal after the second meeting? Why are you going back out there? It's really eye-opening for the people in leadership that they need to be teaching these people how to be consultative and not having unrealistic expectations of their reps. Because it's all pressure coming on them and it goes down to them and it's making the people that feed on the street.
00:08:30
Speaker
It's making them more transactional. Yeah, it's making them more transactional. You can smell your commission breath from a mile away, right? And that was the one thing that always drove me crazy. And it's something that I did when I first got into staffing is you're making your 31st call that day. And finally, somebody picks up and you just instantly go into pitching.
00:08:48
Speaker
Rather than trying to learn about them and what their problems are, you just go into pitch mode and instantly turn them off. Yeah, for sure. And you sound like a salesperson. There's a theater voice that comes out with some salespeople. They're like, well, good morning.
00:09:02
Speaker
And you're like, oh my gosh, here it comes. And when you hear that, you immediately put the defenses up. You immediately put the blockers up as a client and the salespeople don't even see it. There's a book that I promote called Win-Win Selling. That's part of our core sales training. One of my favorite lines of all time in there says salespeople without good thorough discovery skills often find too late that they've been shadow boxing with prospects rather than truly engaging.
00:09:27
Speaker
I think how embarrassing is that to walk into a prospect's office and shuck and jive and throw some punches and you're the only one engaged. The prospect's going to be looking at you like, what are you doing right now?
00:09:39
Speaker
What's happening? But that's what happens. We walk in and we think, oh man, we just did a great job. Did you see those moves? And really we didn't engage at all. Very early on in Sybil's history, Jason and I would be out at sales calls and we'd be getting ready to walk into a prospect store that we had a demo scheduled with and we'd look at each other. It's like, we got listen. We can't just show up and throw off grass. parts I know we're excited about this stuff and we're really passionate about it, but we got to let them do the talking and then respond to them. And it's so easy to fall into those traps.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah. Speaking of that, about listening, Rob, I use a tool called Fireflies. So Fireflies records the meeting. One of the cool things that I get for reports is it tells me every meeting how much time each person did talking. And I have a little game that I play.
00:10:25
Speaker
Like my ratio, I want to be at least 60-40. I want them talking 60%, me talking 40%. So I actually have a measurement every time I do a Zoom meeting, how much I talk to kind of keep me in check because of what you just described. I want to be the listener.
00:10:39
Speaker
By the way, my all time record is 97 and three, 97 and three. We got to the end of that call. And the guy that I was talking to was like, I feel like I'm in a therapy session and I don't know anything about you.
00:10:55
Speaker
That's great. So what about a salesperson finally gets somebody
Discovery Framework and Beyond
00:10:58
Speaker
on the phone? They finally get that first meeting rather than at your point earlier, just going through the chat boxes. What are your pains? What do you like? What do you dislike? Without turning into an interrogation, what does a good discovery conversation look like?
00:11:11
Speaker
That's the question of the day, right? What do we actually ask? What do we say? So I have a framework that I use. but We call it the business needs identification framework. So I'll give it to you five things. Super easy.
00:11:21
Speaker
It goes like this. Strategy, structure, people, business metrics, and market. That's it. So on my first, second, sometimes even third conversation with a potential staffing client,
00:11:35
Speaker
I'm systematically making my way through those five things. I might start with business metrics. doesn't matter what order you go in, frankly, and and it does change based on who you're talking to in an organization. But I might start off with business metrics and I might ask a question like, so how's it going? Are you guys doing well this year?
00:11:51
Speaker
How do you measure yourself? How do you know if you're doing a good job? Tell me a little bit about your competition in this market. What's got you guys looking for positions now? Or what do you think might be some of the triggers this year that would open up some positions that could be mission critical?
00:12:05
Speaker
So I'm asking questions. Yes, I'm getting to the heart of the employee base. Yes, I'm ultimately going to lead them down the road of What positions are you opening for? But I'm trying to ask them through the lens of the business in its entirety.
00:12:19
Speaker
I wanna know who their competition is. I wanna know what their expansion plans are. And here's what's driving that. Here's what gets me on that framework. People absolutely love to talk about their business.
00:12:30
Speaker
And they love to talk about their business winning. They love to talk about their business succeeding. So many salespeople out there are on this hunt for pain. And I've never understood that. Nobody wants to talk about their last dental appointment. You wouldn't go asking people about, tell me about your last breakup or, hey, are you in a happy marriage? We would never approach personal relationships that way, but we'll do it on the business front.
00:12:52
Speaker
What people want to talk about are the good things. So tell me about your business. Tell me about where you thought you'd be at this point in the year. Tell me about what hopes you have for success this year. Tell me about how you're kicking your competition's butt.
00:13:05
Speaker
That's the stuff they want to talk about. And if you're hitting those triggers, you'll be able to just let them talk for 60% of the
Value-Based Selling vs. Price Focus
00:13:12
Speaker
time. You won't have to have a ton of questions. They will defalge information that you never thought you'd get.
00:13:17
Speaker
And you've probably immediately differentiated yourself from all the competition, right? Because I guarantee most staffing agencies aren't doing those things in the meetings or on calls. They're not. And they're so consistent about it that they've actually trained staffing buyers. And you can see the trained ones. The staffing buyers see us coming a mile away. And as soon as you give them a trigger question like, hey, do you guys use a staffing agency today?
00:13:41
Speaker
They go into gear. They're like, I know what supposed say. Yes, we use multiple agencies right now. But all agencies are the same. You guys get all your people from the same place, don't you? And so now I have a response for that because I've been trained by my leadership to respond to that question.
00:13:54
Speaker
And then question number three from my staffing buyer is, well, what's your markup? What do you guys run for a markup? And that's the whole staffing conversation. And that's not how it should be. But that's a result of staffing companies asking crappy questions and inadvertently training buyers to know what's coming.
00:14:10
Speaker
So if you want to capture their interest, you got to change the game. I was talking to someone from a staffing firm and I was looking at their workers and Simple and the clients they support and their markets were five, seven, 10 points higher than everybody else in those clients.
00:14:24
Speaker
It just shows you who's selling on price and who's selling the value of what they actually have. So I love having that conversation because it really just hurts a whole sales world when you go in and sell on price because then it just lowers the standard for everyone else.
00:14:41
Speaker
That business isn't going to stay long. The next guy that comes in with a plate of cupcakes in quotes, you're going to get knocked down again. And you went down to 30% markup. Someone's going to come in with a 28 and a plate of cupcakes and you're out.
00:14:52
Speaker
So even if you get that business, it's temporary. It's going to go away. And then you got to go have the conversation with your recruiter that, hey, by the way, I sold this at 28% and they're not going to want to fill it. Yeah, for sure.
00:15:04
Speaker
Mark, you told me you can get two out of the three. Good service, good people, or good cut, or what was it? The triangle. Yeah, so it's three things. When we engage with the customer, we talk price, we talk service expectations, and we talk quality expectations of the people we place.
00:15:19
Speaker
The customer can ask for any two of those three. So if they want the lowest possible price and the best possible service, they're going to get who they get. If they want the best possible people and the lowest possible price, then it's going to take us a while. So service is off the table. We may not be able to fill it.
00:15:34
Speaker
If they want the best people and the best service, then price is off the table. You get two out of three. That's it. You can't have all three. I hear you talking about evaluating the client's process and not just being an order taker, what I've said in on your speaking engagements at the events we've been at.
00:15:51
Speaker
So when you go to a new prospect, what are you looking at in the hiring process, Mark? I'm looking to see what we do differently than what they do currently. It's not a viable business model for us to offer our customers something that they're already doing on their own. That's just redundancy.
00:16:10
Speaker
So what I'm kind of mining for is how can I create an efficiency? How can I do something better? How can I take weight off their shoulders? How can I add value to the organization, shorten the hiring cycle?
00:16:21
Speaker
Any of those things, that's what I'm mining for. So I've joked in some of these presentations that the typical recruiting cycle goes like, we decided to roll, we place an ad, we do some interviews, we do some one-up interviews with the actual hiring manager, we make an offer, we do a placement. That's a typical recruiting cycle.
00:16:39
Speaker
So we suck at that recruiting cycle as a company, right? I'm talking as a company that's looking for employees. So we decide, all right, well, that's not going very well for us. We can't find the people we need. So I'm go to reach out to a staffing company.
00:16:50
Speaker
Staffing company comes in, they say, hey here's what we're going do. You decide on a role. We're going to place an ad. We're going to some interviews. We're going let you do the one-up interviews. We're going let you make the decision. We're going let you make the offer. going to let you start people.
00:17:02
Speaker
It's the same process and we already know they stink at it. So why would we ask them to do that? We've got to be looking for ways to make the process better, to make the process different, to skip steps, speed it up. I think
Optimizing Client Hiring Processes
00:17:14
Speaker
a lot of clients, they know some of the problems they have, but there's finding a lot of problems they don't know, right? And if you're truly a consultative selling, you're going to identify what those problems are.
00:17:22
Speaker
But can you give us maybe just a real example without names, of course, where a team that went from, we just send resumes to actually fixing a process or problem for a client? So there's a couple organizations that I've worked with where as part of the sales process, we push the clients to interview the final candidate, not all the candidates. And this doesn't work in every industry. There's some technical roles where the client has to be by your side during the interviews.
00:17:48
Speaker
But think about the weight that that takes off the shoulders of the client. So the client was on their own sifting through a hundred or more resumes. So they said, that's not sustainable. we're going to hire a staffing company.
00:18:00
Speaker
Staffing company whittles that down, but was still sending them a dozen resumes at a time that they still had to weigh through. So we looked at the process and said, Hey, there's gotta be a better way. Why don't we just draw a line in the sand?
00:18:11
Speaker
You tell us exactly what your hiring managers are looking for. We're going to only send you candidates that exactly meet that criteria. But we want you to know that when we send you a candidate, they're work ready. They are ready to go. the You interview them one time and then you could bring them onto your own roles.
00:18:27
Speaker
That shortens the hiring cycle by half and gets so many less people involved and makes it so much easier on the candidates. And for some reason, staffing companies are really hesitant to have that conversation with their client because they're like, well, the client really wants to weigh in.
00:18:42
Speaker
The only reason they want to is because they've been doing it that way forever and they don't know any better. And so it takes a consultant to show them that there's a better way. That may not work for every scenario, but that is one example. So for someone who's never dug into process before, what's a simple framework or set of questions they can start with, with their next meeting?
00:19:00
Speaker
Start with that. Hey, Mr. Client or Mr. Prospect, tell me about your current hiring process. like Walk me through what you guys do. What are the internal expectations of an employee and how do you know if you have a good one? Start there and map it out. Actually take notes or have some sort of recording a device. You should be able to show it to them.
00:19:16
Speaker
Hey, here's your process. Here's what we're going to do to make sure that all your process steps are met. That visual will get you margin points. That's what a consultant does to say, hey, we're mapping this out. We've given this thought. We see your intent in your process, and we're going to make sure that the best parts of your process are kept. And then we're making that process even better and faster.
00:19:36
Speaker
Good stuff. We're going to transition standing out, getting the meeting. I still think that's probably the hardest part in staffing sales right now, in my opinion. a lot of agencies down the same. From what you're seeing, what actually gets attention today?
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah. If you want to get someone's interest, you got to be interesting. And I'll tell you what they're interested in. Brace yourself. It's not staffing. i know that probably hurts your feelings. What they're interested in is their business. So know their business. Talk about their business.
00:20:03
Speaker
Be where they are. Go to their networking events. Go to their website and go to the About Us page and find out where they spend their time. See what organizations they belong to, what they subscribe to, where they exhibit and spend your time there. That'll help you get to know their business.
00:20:17
Speaker
And who knows, you might even rub elbows with some of the people that you've been trying desperately to get the attention of. But if you were bringing stuff like that to the table, then you might find that you're more interesting. The other thing is the sales cycle is longer now. It takes more chops at the tree to get the tree to fall.
00:20:34
Speaker
And so you've got to make some of those swings of the acts relevant to the people you're talking to. So I kind of think as a general rule, when I touch a prospect, I want to give twice before there's an ask.
Research and Outreach Balance
00:20:47
Speaker
So it could be something like, Hey, I saw this article and thought of you.
00:20:51
Speaker
Hey, I saw this networking event that you should go to with me. I saw this thing that I thought might be relevant to your business. And then there's an ask. Hey, can we get some time together so that we can talk about your business?
00:21:01
Speaker
So think about like a give ask type approach. As a sales leader, the one thing I really try to do for my team is cut the busy work out, get automation as much as possible, make sure our systems talk.
00:21:14
Speaker
Because even the best salespeople have the tendency to squirrel. So where do you see reps wasting the most time? Research. Just go get in your car and go. Pick up the phone and dial.
00:21:26
Speaker
As a salesperson, you have a quantity lever and a quality lever. And too many of them are ganking down on that quality lever like, I'm not leaving the office until I get everything that I could possibly learn about all these prospects because I don't want to look foolish or I want to make sure I have the leverage.
00:21:44
Speaker
Just go. You'll shorten the sales cycle by just showing up. That's where they waste the most time. Do a little bit of research, but if you have to choose between Googling something and going a visit or picking up the phone, pick up the phone.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah. but What's an appropriate amount of time for somebody to research? Because think like to your point earlier, just being interesting, right? If I'm not looking at webinars that my prospect's on or reading their posts or researching things like that, you know, i can't be interesting. Yeah. What do you suggest? And I've always found that's something that's helped me is find something that they've posted on, find something that they've been a guest on and just bring that into the conversation. So you don't just look like some other salesperson that's writing a book to them.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yeah. So as a general rule, and this is a made up number on my part, but I want a salesperson to be selling 60 to 70% of their time. So let's say it's 60. Now you got some internal meetings you got to attend. to Let's call that 10% of your time.
00:22:36
Speaker
Just drive time or busy work. Another 10% of your time that leaves you 20%. So 20% of your time for research and marketing and development and all that stuff, all the side work of sales. There's no science behind that. That's just my
Sales and Marketing Alignment
00:22:51
Speaker
gut.
00:22:51
Speaker
I think you need to do a lot of research. When I'm making a cold call, I want to know a little bit about the company. So that way, if I get them on the call, right, it's not all the way cold. I have done a little bit of research on your company, but that way, when the conversation starts, hey, I know you have six sites across the U.S. I know you're already using multiple staffing agencies or using any type of tool, right? But just knowing that information might set you apart from somebody that's just calling blind.
00:23:14
Speaker
How many sites do you have? Well, you should know that you're calling me. It's on my website. So to your point, yeah, that's a rule of thumb right there, Casey, is don't ask questions in your discovery that are available on the website, but don't overanalyze. You've got to strike a balance between that quantity lever and quality lever.
00:23:30
Speaker
Totally agree. And I've heard you say selling works best when sales and marketing are aligned. Where do you see staffing firms fail at this? Yeah. So they put them in silos. So marketing is doing its own thing and sales is expected to do its own thing. That's not the case anymore.
00:23:47
Speaker
Now, this is the ongoing debate with my partner, Jim, and I forever. Like, what's the tip of the spear, sales or marketing? And I always say sales, but mostly just because it gets his goat a little bit. The reality is now sales is enveloped in marketing. They're one unit moving forward. You've got to have marketing leading the way with branding and market presence. You got to have a good website out there. So you've got to have a really good foothold in the marketplace with your marketing.
00:24:14
Speaker
You've got to have a sales team that's saying the things that are on your website that are reinforcing the promises that your brand makes. And then that sales team has to have materials in their backpack to say, Hey, here's how you tell the story about this conversation internally.
00:24:30
Speaker
So you've got marketing leading the charge with a good website, good presence, good brand promise, brand commitments, all that stuff. Credibility is basically what it comes down to. You've got the salesperson who's showing up to guide the customer through the buying process.
00:24:45
Speaker
And then you've got the salesperson leaving good marketing behind to say, hey here's what we talked about. Here's how the implementation works. Here's what it looks like. So you've got to have your marketing surrounding and supporting your sales. That's where that term enablement comes from. Sales enablement is the bringing together of sales and marketing. They have to be brought together.
00:25:05
Speaker
In fact, one of the exercises that I ask my clients to do, and any one of the podcast listeners would do really well to do this, take your sales process and draw it up on a whiteboard somewhere, and then put a table up under that whiteboard, and then go get all of the marketing material that's all dusty in the back closet of your branch.
00:25:24
Speaker
and lay out the pieces of marketing material that are supposed to reinforce your sales process. So you get your sales process on the whiteboard, then you'll have all of the pieces of marketing material or pens and papers or whatever.
00:25:38
Speaker
You'll have all that crap laid out under the steps of your sales process so that everybody in your organization knows what marketing tools should be enabling what steps of the sales process. That's one of the best and fastest ways you can bring sales and marketing to life in your organization.
00:25:54
Speaker
What about some of those agencies maybe that are smaller, they don't have some huge marketing team, maybe a midsize agencies? Is there anything that they could do differently to help drive those conversations?
00:26:04
Speaker
You get a marketing team. And there's so many of them out there that are willing to work on a fractional basis. I mean, there's a ton of really reputable marketing companies in our space that will help with everything from just the flyer production to full-blown PMO fractional services.
00:26:21
Speaker
So go get one. You can't afford not to have one. Your customers are looking at your website as a point of credibility for your business. Your materials reflect to your brand. So if you're pumping out crap at Kinko's and thinking that's it, well, that that speaks to what your brand quality is.
00:26:39
Speaker
And that's probably why you're struggling. So go get some marketing help. And there's tons of people out there. I'm happy to make referrals. It's funny, that was probably in hindsight, the thing that Simple took too long to do was get a true marketing presence. And once we finally brought somebody in house and got somebody that knew us, was protective of our brain and our product.
00:27:02
Speaker
It was a game changer. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. What does good communication between sales and marketing look like to you? Any simple rhythms or touch points that you like?
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah. Like you said, that the two should be connected. Marketing, if it's doing its job really well, should be guiding the sales team to specific places in the market. And that could be a vertical, that could be areas of opportunity.
00:27:26
Speaker
And that could be everything from helping produce lists of prospects to helping them with trade shows or engagement, or they could be helping with marketing automation. So setting up campaigns so that salespeople don't have to do that. haven't touched on any of that. I mean, there's so many tools out there right now for marketing automation.
00:27:44
Speaker
So the marketing team can jump in there and help support sales. Obviously communication is going to be a big part. So many organizations now are making the move to have one centralized leadership role over both sales and marketing. That's a pretty smart move.
00:27:59
Speaker
That helps make sure there's alignment, reduces a lot of friction and communication issues, but that may not work for everybody. That may fall on the shoulders of the CEO and some smaller organizations, but that's what got to do to make sure that it clicks.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, something that you just mentioned, trying to look at verticals and go after those. So we determined our most successful verticals where we have the most clients in our portfolio, food production and logistics.
00:28:23
Speaker
So we've gotten products from all of our food production clients and we're building baskets and this was our marketing team's idea and we're sending all these baskets to other food production companies that we want to get in. So just a great example of how sales and marketing can work together, to differentiate ourselves and really get past the hardest thing is getting people's attention. Like we talked about earlier in the episode.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yep. And you're honing in on specific verticals, Rob. One of the best things that people can do for themselves is create an ideal customer profile, a very specific ideal customer profile, because that's how people are going to be attracted to you. They see themselves in your website.
00:29:02
Speaker
I see so many generic websites because staffing companies, they don't want to leave something out. They don't want to miss an opportunity. So they make their website so vanilla, That potential prospects look at the website and they say, I don't know if that applies
Structuring Sales Roles and Compensation
00:29:16
Speaker
to me or not. I mean, it could be medical, it could be IT, it could be industrial.
00:29:20
Speaker
You got to be specific. You want people being like, oh, that's the company for me. So the more specific your ideal customer profile, the more likely you're going to attract and get the interest of potential prospects.
00:29:33
Speaker
The buyers lot smarter now. They can go research you and your company. And if you've got some janky website, that's where it's going to end. wouldn' talk Just real quick, how companies are structuring their sales teams and roles in comp. That was actually an episode that we did on that, but you called it out pretty directly with us when we had chatted a couple of weeks ago. but A lot of agencies are just not paying their salespeople enough.
00:29:54
Speaker
They're below market and then they're surprised they can't land top talent. What are you seeing in a comp class now and how is that hurting sales? Well, here's the deal. One size does not fit all. There are multiple sales rules out there. Sometimes you need people that are very front of the funnel.
00:30:08
Speaker
Sometimes you need people that are closers. Sometimes you need people that are account managers. Sometimes you need trade show people. Well, each of those comes with its own comp plan. And it's not that I see organizations paying people less.
00:30:22
Speaker
It's that they've got the wrong comp structure for the role they hire. So they want someone who they think if they hire a quality person, that person can manage all segments of the sales cycle.
00:30:32
Speaker
And then they bring them in and they say, Hey, i need you to make a hundred dials a day. Well, those two things don't match, right? I'm a 15 year sales veteran. I feel like I'm past the point where I shouldn't have to make a hundred dials a day. I thought you had marketing here that would get me leads. I didn't realize that I was driving in the leads.
00:30:50
Speaker
Now I feel like I'm not getting paid enough to do that. i want more money. So you got to make sure that what you're hiring for, the role you're hiring for comes with a certain set of qualifications to it, comes with a certain set of job expectations to it, then comes with compensation expectations on top of it. And those things have to be in alignment.
00:31:07
Speaker
So talk about that more. The teams that are winning, how are they structuring the roles? It's obviously not all full cycle like you talked about. Salespeople, hunters, farmers, hybrids, account managers.
00:31:18
Speaker
Talk about that a little bit more. So we're seeing more division in sales roles now than I've seen in a long time. It's common for a midsize staffing company to have a few inside salespeople managing lead gen and pulling together appointments or early stage sales process.
00:31:34
Speaker
then you've got a couple local salespeople in Sheboygan, Wisconsin that are out feet on the street, you know, so they're going to go meet salespeople. And then you've got a team, maybe a branch manager that's got account management responsibilities and they're responsible for growing and retaining accounts within the branch or the branch network.
00:31:53
Speaker
So that's a three level distribution of the sales role among three different roles. Each one of those gets paid very differently. The branch manager might be paid on NOI or commission.
00:32:03
Speaker
The selling person might be paid on straight commission. And then the front end person might be paid on appointments. But if I were a small company, so a regional company with just a couple of branches, I would say that you can accomplish the same thing by being really clear with the salespeople you hire about the different segments of the job and maybe breaking it up over time. So you might say, hey, I'm going to bring on a new salesperson in January.
00:32:26
Speaker
And for the first four months, I'm just going to have them do the front end of the sales process. They're just going to drum up business and get as much prospecting going so that when we get into the summer selling season, they're able to actually focus on sit down appointments or something. So you can break those functions up, but you've got to be super clear that that's what you're doing. Real quick aside, and I wonder this because when you're hiring successful salespeople who already are making commission, but might not be happy at the role, do you see giving a ramp for those people? So paying them a little more upfront until it gives them time to start earning commission.
Aligning Sales, Recruiting, and Operations
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, I don't see that a ton and I'm kind of glad I don't. That's really hard to recover from because if you misjudge and your ramp expires before your true sales process kicks in, you're going to have a gap and that gap hurts the heart of your salespeople.
00:33:16
Speaker
I see a lot of people quit or leave during that period. So if you're going to do that, be realistic. If it's going to take them six months to get to a point where they're getting enough commission to make up for what you've given them, then make it six months. Don't try to shortchange it in hopes of getting them to produce faster.
00:33:33
Speaker
Let's switch gears a little bit here. I've heard you talk about internal alignment of sales, recruiting, and ops. What does that mean in plain English? Yeah. Fastest way to get sales, recruiting, and ops aligned is ideal customer profile.
00:33:47
Speaker
Align your ideal customer profile to your ideal candidate profile and have some buying personas. So marketing companies can help you with that. By having the expectations of who we're trying to chase from a sales perspective and the candidates that will match those ideal customers together shared, now you have some alignment. And everybody knows when you're going outside the guardrails of that alignment.
00:34:12
Speaker
So if I'm in industrial staffing and I know exactly what I need, i need forklift drivers and I need picker packers and my recruiting team is on board and I've got my ideal customer profile and buying personas and they've got their ideal candidate profile and they've got recruiting arms that they recruit from.
00:34:29
Speaker
If all of a sudden I try to lob a job order for an underwater basket weaver over the fence, It seems odd, right? They're like, what are you doing? That's not what we do. And that's how you get misalignment. But salespeople don't do that intentionally. They're doing it because they're desperate, because they're like, oh man, I just got to do something.
00:34:46
Speaker
Well, better to go back and revise your ideal customer and candidate profile than to try to fill something that isn't good for the organization. So start with the ideal customer and candidate profile. That in itself will get you so much alignment and and There's nothing that would drive me more crazy than a sales rep that goes out and they bring these job orders back in the office is like, we can't fill that. I used to require, there was a good branch manager, the salesperson would take them to that initial in-person meeting because at the end of the day, your internal office are going to be the ones filling the jobs and maintaining that relationship once it's sold. Hey Mark, real quick, let's talk tech. There are so many tools now, CRMs, marketing, sequencing tools, sourcing dashboards.
Leveraging Sales Tech Tools
00:35:27
Speaker
In your mind, how should that help the team?
00:35:29
Speaker
There's so many tools out there as far as ZoomInfo and Apollo and RocketReach for getting names and information of companies. So I would be using that if I was a salesperson. already shared with you that I use Fireflies to record my meetings.
00:35:42
Speaker
If you're doing meetings in person, then you might invest in a good note taker. The CRM obviously is going to keep you on point and make sure that you don't miss appointments and things don't slip through the cracks. So you've got to have a great CRM.
00:35:55
Speaker
Ideally your CRM is something like, we'll put a little plug in here for Aviante, one that's connected with your ATS and operating system. So all the data is coming to the same source. That's the best case scenario.
00:36:07
Speaker
I hate when I see CRMs that are completely disconnected or siloed. So those are the basics, but here's the thing is before I went and spent a ton of money on tech or automation, I'd rather see you put money into your marketing dollars. Before you go spend 20 grand on ZoomInfo,
00:36:23
Speaker
That buys a lot of trade show booth time. So be careful where you spend that money because those leads are super valuable. And I guess the last thing that I'll say about tech before i get off this soapbox is make sure that whatever tech you're using is aligned to your organization.
00:36:36
Speaker
Make sure that it represents your brand well. Make sure that people have access to it. Make sure that it's aligned to the way your organization operates so you don't find yourself out there in a silo doing some renegade thing that isn't supported by the brand or the organization.
00:36:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think truly the best technology that everyone has access to is LinkedIn. Most of the people you're going after are HR, right? And what do they use to recruit? LinkedIn. the Most of them are on LinkedIn already. And then of course, I think it is super important to have something like a ZoomInfo or an Apollo where you can quickly grab a cell phone number or an email address or whatever type of information that you need on them.
00:37:12
Speaker
And real quick, Mark, since we're talking about technology, shameless plug here, because I feel like a fits this topic, but our staffing partners at Simple is using us as a differentiator in the sales process. So instead of saying, we'll fill your orders, they come with, well, we can help you streamline how you manage your multiple staffing agencies and timekeeping and reporting all through a vendor neutral VMS. From your perspective, how can a salesperson use a tool like that, a real solution to get a prospect's attention and open up a more strategic and consultative conversation?
00:37:41
Speaker
Yeah. So we started this conversation talking about how staffing has changed. And one of the things that I said was there are companies out there who are trying to either diversify or trying to figure out how to reduce their dependency on staffing or whatever.
00:37:55
Speaker
So there's a segment that just wants to get out of the staffing game. There's a segment that will continue to do business the way they always have. And then there's a segment that really wants a technology first solution. And what a great tool to have to be able to say, hey I've got that. I know the easiest to use BMS out there. I know people who can help with an implementation.
00:38:16
Speaker
So why wouldn't you want to bring that to the table? And there's a whole segment of customers who are out there trying to do this right
Niche Focus and Strategic Alignment
00:38:23
Speaker
now. They want a technology first solution for their entire workforce, not just their temporary workforce, but their entire workforce. Why wouldn't I want to be the guy that provides it or points them in the right direction?
00:38:34
Speaker
And one of the things that we're seeing in the VMS space is the ideal customer or the ideal VMS user is changing. So it used to be just relegated to big companies. It's now more medium sized companies.
00:38:46
Speaker
And so there's a ton of companies that know about it and aren't using it or know about it and have considered it. And wouldn't it be smart of me to be the guy that engages them in that conversation rather than just be victim to the decision when they finally make it. And I haven't had that conversation yet.
00:39:02
Speaker
Right. So Mark, for the people listening now, what are some things that they could do to be more consultant? So whether they're a staffing salesperson, owner, sales leader, they don want to shift their team towards consultative selling and asking better questions and alignment. but What are the first couple of moves that you'd tell them to make?
00:39:18
Speaker
Find a narrow focus within your space, really get good at one particular industry or customer segment, start to research it and understand it. Spend time in those spaces, not just in those companies, but where those companies hang up.
00:39:32
Speaker
Then change the way that you ask questions. So remember that BNI model, spend time in your customer's business. Discovery is all about understanding your customer's business and their business is not staffing. So if you're talking about people and fill rates and all that crap, you're not talking about your customer's business. If you're talking about output and productivity, you're talking about your customer's business.
00:39:53
Speaker
So change the questions that you're asking. Be interesting. Make sure that your expectations are realistic. You're probably not going to close things on your first or second visit. You've got some touches ahead of you.
00:40:05
Speaker
So think about what you want those touches to be and how you want them to reflect on your brand and company. So make them interesting. Align yourself to marketing, aligning your sales process to your marketing steps. That's huge.
00:40:17
Speaker
And when you get to that point, give me a call. That tees me up nicely, Mark. If someone's listening and thinking, man, I really liked what Mark said, how can they find you in Windsource? Yeah. So windsourcegroup.com is the website.
00:40:30
Speaker
I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn, you name it. Wherever you're hanging out, I'm probably there. But feel free to reach out to me anytime. Glad to help and give some advice. Phone calls are free. Unless you get too chatty, but feel free to hit me up.
00:40:42
Speaker
Mark, I really can't thank you enough. And like I said at the beginning, this was long overdue. Really appreciate you hanging out with us and sharing the playbook into consultative selling.
00:40:52
Speaker
For everyone listening, don't try to overhaul everything at once. Tighten up your process. Look at your comp plan. Get sales and recruiting in one room together and do something with it.
00:41:03
Speaker
And if you're a staffing firm looking for a way to stand out, have a more strategic conversation with prospects, check out Simple. Our partners use Simple as a differentiator to help clients get control over multiple vendors, timekeeping, invoicing, and reporting. So if you want to bring a real solution to help manage your contingent workforce, talk to Simple about partnership.
00:41:22
Speaker
If you got value from this episode, please hit like and subscribe, share with somebody on your team, and we'll see you on the next episode of Staffing Made Simple. This has been an episode of Staffing Made Simple powered by Simple VMS, the vendor friendly VMS.