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64: Non-Diet Coaching & Silly Certification Tests with Damali Fraiser
841 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to Episode 64 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this episode, Laurel is joined by non-diet kettlebell coach Damali Fraiser to talk about what it means to be an inclusive kettlebell coach. We also discuss why a coach's life experience and skills (and not their body) are their real business card. Finally, we get into silly certification tests that limit diversity in an industry that desperately needs more of it.
In this interview you will learn:
- Why kettlebells are excellent tools for cultivating strength, power, and endurance.
- How the shape of a kettlebell makes it uniquely effective for training stability and moving in multi-planar ways.
- What it means to be a non-diet kettlebell coach.
- What building body trust means, and how grasping at some ideal, future body can sabotage some people’s ability to relate to and trust the body they currently have.
- What intersectionality is, and how understanding this concept can help us teach and coach in a way that is inclusive so that more people feel welcome in fitness.
- A critical look at a popular kettlebell certification system, StrongFirst, and a test they impose as a barrier to entry for certifying coaches—the 100 kettlebell snatches in 5 minutes test.
- How the fitness industrial complex negatively impacts folks who don’t conform to societal ideals and what we can do about it.
And more!
Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course in October 2024!
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Transcript
Introduction to Movement Logic Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Movement Logic podcast with yoga teacher and strength coach Laurel Beaversdorf and physical therapist, Dr. Sarah Court.
Evidence-based Movement Philosophy
00:00:09
Speaker
With over 30 years combined experience in the yoga, movement, and physical therapy worlds, we believe in strong opinions loosely held, which means we're not hyping outdated movement concepts. Instead, we're here with up to date and cutting edge tools, evidence, and ideas to help you as a mover and a teacher.
Casual Episode Setting
00:00:41
Speaker
Hey folks, it's Laurel. Two things. One, you might hear my cat Mustard Seed purring a little bit in the background. I'm going to try to edit it out. He's having a rough time so I'll let him sit on my desk while I recorded this and he's really purring up a storm. Second of all, you might hear a little purr in the back of my throat because I'm coming down with something. Those two announcements out of the way, just popping in ahead of
Personal Milestones and Course Updates
00:01:03
Speaker
time.
00:01:03
Speaker
to tell you all the things but i think you're really gonna like my interview with demali frazier but first share a little bit about what's been going on in the bone density course we are coming on our last month in fact our last two weeks of this program and the progress that the people in this course are making is absolutely
00:01:26
Speaker
so inspiring and blowing us all away. I wanted to read to you something that Donna wrote in our Facebook group just a few weeks ago. She writes, when I started this program, I was hoping I would back squat 100 pounds by the end of the six months. I did it today. I love this program and how it makes me feel. Thank you, Sarah and Laurel and all the badass women in this group. You have all inspired me and taught me so much watching your videos.
00:01:56
Speaker
Keep on rockin'. Thank you Donna for sharing that amazing accomplishment and for being a part of the group. We are going to wrap up this first cohort, but they will continue on in the Facebook group. We created an accountability buddy.
00:02:17
Speaker
chat where folks are pairing up with an accountability buddy to continue training through until forever maybe but we're gonna relaunch this course in October of this year again with a new cohort but folks who signed up with us for the first cohort are getting a very special discount and the option to join us again for the second time around in the live classes and to get all the coaching feedback that they get in the Facebook group.
00:02:45
Speaker
So we are super proud of this cohort and very much looking forward to the fall of this year where we're going to do this again. If you want to join us, definitely get on our wait list via the link in the show notes. This is the only place where you will get the discount and we will also be sharing some freebies with you in the weeks to come to wet your whistle. These will be wait list only freebies and also a wait list only discount.
Guest Introduction: Demali Frazier
00:03:14
Speaker
All right, so now on to our very special guest Demali. I want to tell you a little bit about her and then we'll get right into the conversation that gets into the nitty gritty of kettlebells, which I am very passionate about, but also the nitty gritty of coaching.
00:03:35
Speaker
and what it means to be an inclusive coach as well as we do discuss some issues with the fitness industrial complex and the ways in which the fitness industrial complex can create unnecessary barriers to entry and leave out or alienate folks who don't conform to societal ideals of say what a body
00:04:03
Speaker
should look like or what a kettlebell coach should look like. So I think you're really going to love this interview. Damali writes on her website that she is a kettlebell and nutrition coach. She's based in Brampton, Ontario. Her coaching has evolved to practice safe evidence-based kettlebell training, body positive fitness and sustainable nutrition that supports you in starting wherever you are and confidently moving forward to where you want to be.
00:04:28
Speaker
She has been a part of collaborations with the Peel District School Board, University of Toronto Body Positive Fitness Alliance, CanFit Pro, OFEA, among other private organizations to hold restorative healing practices, prioritizing body positivity, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and embodied trauma-sensitive strength training. Damali explores the strength of community. She believes the body is a community.
00:04:56
Speaker
And when we don't see ourselves represented in our communities, it becomes a source of disconnection within our bodies. Demali speaks at conferences, workshops, and corporate functions advocating for an active lifestyle where diversity, equity, inclusion, and intersectionality are prioritized as a movement toward self-love for every body. All right, let's get into this interview with Demali Frazier.
Demali's Journey to Kettlebell Coaching
00:05:23
Speaker
All right, Damali, thank you so much for joining me today on the MovementLogic podcast. Hi, I'm super excited to get to chat with you. I followed you for quite some time, and this is a great opportunity to get to know each other.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yes, I agree. I've followed you for a long time as well and just love the content that you put out on Instagram. Yeah, so let's start with your personal journey and how you transitioned from, as I read on your Instagram page, not growing up as an athlete to becoming a non-diet kettlebell coach and mentor. Again, thank you for inviting me on to chat. My name is Damali and I am located in Brampton, Ontario, Canada.
00:06:04
Speaker
It's quite cold today, so I am grateful to be able to chat and share a little bit more about me. I am Canadian-born, but West Indian-made is what I always tell folks. My parents are from Jamaica, St. Vincent, my grandparents from Barbados, so island people. And yeah, I grew up very focused on math and science of STEM, and I was determined to be an engineer.
00:06:28
Speaker
I'm the oldest of 10 siblings. My parents were not married, but they each had children on their own and I was the first.
00:06:38
Speaker
So my life was always occupied with rearing children and taking care of my siblings and studying a lot of studying. So I went to university at University of Toronto for material science and engineering and came out focused on process engineering, six sigma, lean technology. So none of that has to do with fitness.
00:07:03
Speaker
Absolutely nothing. I had a curiosity for biology and I did look at biomaterials at one point, but I wasn't interested in a master. So I went into career mode. I was married and had two children. So my life went very towards academics and then career focus.
00:07:23
Speaker
And as a young mom, I worked really hard and was really tired. And my perceptions of what fitness was supposed to do was just to get my pre-mom body back.
00:07:38
Speaker
that was my kind of existence. So an athlete or considering myself an athlete, nope, never was really a priority for me growing up. Until I had two young daughters at home and I was like, oh, I want to find some martial arts or some discipline activity for them.
Muay Thai: From Participation to Passion
00:08:01
Speaker
I was like, oh, shouldn't they do karate or taekwondo or something? That was what happened. I was just like, oh, you know, not for me. Absolutely not. It was just like, oh, I need to find something for them. There's after school. You've got to make it to work. All these kind of things in my life. And I ran into a colleague who owned a Muay Thai school.
00:08:27
Speaker
And at the time, Muay Thai could have been, I don't know, ooh, chocolate milk. I don't know. It could have been anything. I did not know what Muay Thai was and how it differed from other martial art. But he was like, oh, come and check it out. Bring your daughters. And I started them in children's Muay Thai classes.
00:08:49
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about what Muay Thai is? Muay Thai is kind of the national sport of Thailand, the art of eight limbs. It is a martial art combat sport where you use punches, elbows, knees and kicks. So those are eight limbs, hands and arms in a stand-up combat sport. A little bit different than the eight limbs of yoga.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yes, very different. Very different. You're familiar with yoga. Yes. The first thing I was like, eight limbs. And then you're like, no, the limbs like punching, kicking. Yeah. Elbows.
00:09:32
Speaker
So it's fighting. It's fighting. It's an art of fighting. It's a combat art. It is a sport. So not to confuse it with, you know, a military training or something of that nature. It's a national sport, different than boxing, different than kickboxing, but it is Thai kickboxing. And my experience, again, was very low in Muay Thai.
00:09:58
Speaker
I didn't know what it was at all. I was excited to see my daughters feel empowered, learn some techniques to build some confidence and self-defense and enabling them to feel that they have that power in their own bodies. And then I was invited to join in. They said, oh, parents, you're sitting here. You're sitting here anyways, waiting this hour for them to finish their training. Parents can train with their kids if they want. Wow. Oh boy.
00:10:29
Speaker
And there we start the journey of Damali deciding that she really likes punching and kicking. Oh, nice. Nice. You know, at the end of the day and you're a parent, you're like, oh, I got to get them to that after school activity. And then, you know, you hop in. These kids are like lapping me. They're running around lapping me. But, you know, that heavy bag was there and it was like, OK, just like punch this a few times.
00:10:56
Speaker
Wow. This is the way to end your day. It's really good. It's sweat. Really, really demanding in terms of conditioning and Muay Thai. My trainer, my coach, my Ajahn would say there's no Muay Thai without running. So a lot of running and a lot of conditioning. And I fell in love with the sport of Muay Thai. And I was 33 years old.
00:11:25
Speaker
Wow, that is beyond inspiring. And I see the pictures that you share on Instagram, where you're just kicking someone's ass. Because you were in competitions and stuff like this wasn't just a workout class, right?
00:11:42
Speaker
He started it just as a workout. Again, it wasn't directed at me and then I went all in. But if anyone knows any Capricorn engineers, then you probably know people who go all in on things.
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah, I went completely head in. I started competing for about three years. So it took me about a year and a half just from the startup of being introduced to the sport and started to train till I actually felt like confident that I could compete. And then once I had my first competition, I was I was competing like every month at that time.
00:12:20
Speaker
I competed here in Canada in different areas of the GTA, Cambridge, here in Toronto. I competed in Iowa at Muay Thai Classic for people who do
Kettlebell Training and Well-being Philosophy
00:12:33
Speaker
know Muay Thai. There's a huge competition there and then I competed in New York and that's where I had my catastrophic
00:12:41
Speaker
first catastrophic knee injury for my ACL, medial and lateral meniscus. So for folks who've been listening and wondering like, when is the kettlebells coming? My journey in my life experience has gone through quite some things.
00:12:58
Speaker
And as in Muay Thai world, I was an older athlete. I was in my 30s, just coming into the sport. And I really did look for means of strength and conditioning that were functional and that would allow me to be time efficient.
00:13:14
Speaker
Muay Thai classes are not time efficient. They are at least an hour and a half. Oh my gosh. The first 45 minutes or the first half an hour is just pure conditioning. Tons of burpees or jumping jacks or squats or all the things that you can do. And then you usually do your technique and your pad work and your bag work following the conditioning.
00:13:41
Speaker
So that was a lot of time and a lot of volume on a body that had not known any of that beforehand. So the aches and pains were there. I'd never had any major injuries or even broken a bone.
00:13:59
Speaker
Again, I was not like a big athlete growing up. I had a small stint playing rugby in high school, which is another interesting story. You like the sports where you get physical. Very physical, high intensity power sports. But yeah, so I found a connect who was teaching kettlebells and hard style specifically for it, how it resonates with a martial arts striking art in terms of power.
00:14:28
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about what kettlebell training can look like and then how hard style fits into that? Yeah. So for folks who are still thinking, you know, what's this kettlebell that she's talking about? For kettlebell. Where do I buy some kettleballs?
00:14:47
Speaker
Absolutely. That's it. Whatever you want to call it, it is a big cannonball looking thing with a handle. Yeah, is a metal weight specifically that is a ball with a flat face so it can sit upright and a handle on the top.
00:15:04
Speaker
So it makes it very convenient for ballistic exercises for speed and power because of how you can hold that handle to swing and kettlebell swings. Very popular, seen some not well but seen a lot.
00:15:20
Speaker
swing that bell and that offset center of mass and that weight makes it very unique when it comes to training for speed, power and endurance. So you get a lot of opportunity to not just lift the weight in terms of resistance training and strength training and building strength, but also
00:15:40
Speaker
to incorporate it in movements that will bring on flexibility, push and challenge your mobility, allow you to work your cardiovascular strike, your stability, and you can do that with a very, very small weight. Because of the nature of its shape, it brings that instability and then you find that stability in your own body.
00:16:02
Speaker
Yeah, I like the multi-planar movement you can do with a kettlebell that's not as easy to do with a dumbbell, definitely not as easy to do with a barbell. So yeah, all of those reasons that you listed to train with a kettlebell are fabulous. Absolutely.
00:16:17
Speaker
And there are different styles of training. Of course, you can merge and do all of the things. So you might flow, you might do kettlebell sport in terms of competing as a kettlebell athlete in specific competition style lifts. I was introduced to hard style kettlebell training, which is not for competition purposes. It is maximizing your power and speed.
00:16:43
Speaker
where in kettlebell sport you're focused on your endurance. You are trying to lift and keep lifting for a time as you are competing. So you want to be as efficient as possible with your energy versus hard style. You are trying to use as much energy as high intensity as possible to produce power and speed.
00:17:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing to watch a kettlebell sport snatch and then a hard style snatch. Like they're so different the way that the person in sport kind of moves their body around the kettlebell versus the hard style moves the kettlebell around their body. It's fascinating.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, so those rotational movements, the shifting of weight that you'll see in kettlebells sport, they're all very like, it's almost like a dance. Whereas like hard style people, right away you know their like intensity. You're like, whoa, like you hear them breathing and you're like, what is going on here? It can be very fascinating or intimidating, depending. But yes, I fell in love with hard style for that.
00:17:51
Speaker
that speed and power and that relaxation to tension was something I had come very accustomed to in Muay Thai and how to manage my movements as I'm competing, conserve my energy when I need it, and then put it out when it comes to striking. And I found that very similar in kettlebells. Once I had my
00:18:13
Speaker
first injury, well then my life flipped in a different direction towards like what was my purpose in movement and what was my purpose in exercising and what was I looking for and how was I approaching exercise. So my first kind of rehabilitation became a rediscovery of movement and kettlebells was really able to meet me on that journey along the way.
00:18:38
Speaker
So I'm hearing that you were initially using exercise as a way to get your body back, quote unquote, right, which we hear a lot from new moms, and then you were a fierce competitor. So then exercise became a performance driven.
00:18:54
Speaker
And then you injured your knee and then exercise with the kettlebell became something that you were almost like innately curious about suddenly for like its own sake and like the way that it made you feel, which you talk a lot about in the stuff that you've written, right? Which is I want to get into that with you today.
00:19:14
Speaker
You are now a non-diet kettlebell coach. So tell us a little bit about this non-diet kettlebell coach identification that you have that you really do set yourself apart with because not a lot of people mention diet or non-diet as a kettlebell coach, but you hear from a lot of kettlebell coaches this really intense focus on body composition.
00:19:39
Speaker
and on aesthetics and what we're trying to change about the way the body looks. And you're right off the bat, you're like, I'm not into that. And I put that in the title of what I do. So can you tell us a little bit about why you chose to do that? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. It's almost like there's a filter.
00:19:56
Speaker
In the fitness industry today, whether we like it or not, there is a filter on a lot of our practice and movement, which is driven towards aesthetic and aesthetics defined as being thinner, being leaner, being more muscular by being leaner.
00:20:12
Speaker
lowering your body fat, you know, many words used to describe it. But that filter overlays our ability to be curious about the movement because now we have to go through that filter first. Like you must be here to swing this kettlebell because you'll burn a thousand calories very quickly. And that's what you're looking for first and foremost. But what if I'm not?
00:20:35
Speaker
What if I'm not? And also, I think it's a little bit of a dog whistle because what it's doing is it's signaling to people who already look that way that they belong. And it's also signaling to people who don't already look that ideal way that, you know what, this is probably not for you because first you got to look like this. Then you can do all of this. And like you said, like maybe that's not the point.
00:21:00
Speaker
Right, right. And I think as we all explore longevity and really what makes this life high, like a high quality of life, I don't think anyone is feeling like they're going to leave this world and be able to just demonstrate how many pounds they lost over their lifetime.
00:21:17
Speaker
Exactly. That's not what anyone is really trying to take away, but is being brought forward as the most important or most significant accomplishment that you can have in your fitness experience. We are more than just a body, but we experience this life through our bodies.
00:21:33
Speaker
And I just really want people to know when they come into my space, first and foremost, like I see them as beyond their body. And I want to support them exploring movement in their body and feeling strength in the way that it works for them and that it's not through that lens of what you have to lose. Or, you know, if you're, if you're lean, then you have set some health standard and that you, you must be healthy.
00:22:02
Speaker
So really setting myself into that space and guiding myself, my own physical journey, as well as my relationship with my students and my clients through that journey. Yes, thank you. So can you share a little bit more about the connections, both the physical and the emotional that you personally found through kettlebell training and then how that influences how you coach, how you teach kettlebells?
00:22:31
Speaker
I mentioned a little bit about the differences in styles, but I think that anyone who's trained with kettlebells, when you feel that instability, your brain turns on. Your brain has to really start to reconnect with your body and that movement in different ways.
00:22:51
Speaker
It's pulling you, it's pulling you, it moves and it seems like it's moving to its own track, but then when you start to connect with how you direct that movement, there's a whole different feeling to kettlebell training.
00:23:07
Speaker
I think that's where some of the emotional part can be. Like there's part performance, there's part, okay, I lifted this weight that I didn't think that I was capable of. Even in one session, once you understand how to manage your tension and how to control it, like the strength that you have access to is so much greater. And with that, you have so much more confidence, not in just how you move with the kettlebell, but how you move through the world, how you move through your life.
00:23:36
Speaker
And I think that just carries over both physically and emotionally and spiritually for people who are just working on themselves and wanting to build what I believe is body trust. So instead of us being disconnected because something that you're losing or you're so focused on what you're losing, like how do you connect to that?
00:23:57
Speaker
Oh, I mean, I'm trying to lose weight. I'm trying to get slimmer. And that's not anything that's going to be present in you anymore. It's all something you're thinking about being gone and how you want something gone. Or there's this ideal body that we're trying to get that doesn't actually exist. It's the beach body or the summer body or the
00:24:22
Speaker
Pre pregnancy body in your right if we're grasping at nothing really like something that doesn't exist and that's hard and i've never actually heard anyone make that point before and it's actually so fascinating thank you.
00:24:37
Speaker
this is things like for us to have these conversations in order to open it up. And, and when I put it out there, like I'm non diet, it does get people curious. What does that mean? And then we have this conversation of like, it means a lot of things. It means reconsidering how you train and why you train
00:24:54
Speaker
not just in the wise of like, I'm trying to reach this goal, but why were you motivated to move it at all? I think that there's like something to be said in you being able to like day by day create quality time with your body.
00:25:10
Speaker
I believe that our goals in fitness are often overwhelmed with like very transactional goals. If I do this, I will get this body. If I do this, I will get this feet versus something that's supposed to be relational, like building a relationship with your body, building a whole self in your body. So then I spend this time and whether I got something out of it or not in that transactional way, I invested in that relationship, period.
00:25:40
Speaker
Yeah. Day to day. It speaks to the benefit of having lots of different goals. I've thought about this a lot, which is like, why do I move, right? That's a very deep question, actually. Like, what makes you move, right? Why do you do it? And I find that I have a lot of different goals, but there's always a few that endure. There's always a few that stick around. And it really often always comes down to this relationship that you speak of, like, how do I want to think about my body? How do I want to see myself?
00:26:07
Speaker
And I really explore that through various types of movement, kettlebelling being one of them for sure. And what's cool about all the different types of movement, right? Because I know you lift barbells as well. And you probably do a lot of other things, including martial arts, right? Is that we actually get to explore a different side of ourselves in all of these ways, right? So for kettlebelling, I always consider it to be a little bit like a cross between fighting and dancing.
00:26:34
Speaker
You're holding onto the weight and you're controlling it but in a lot too large extent it's actually also controlling you there's a like a conversation happening between the weight and you and i can see how that conversation can be kind of confrontational you talk a lot about how to make kettlebelling inclusive for all bodies.
00:26:53
Speaker
And for example, you talk about how people with bigger breasts are potentially going to come up against different types of obstacles than people with smaller breasts and that there should be a way for coaches to address those differences in someone's body, right? And so the relationship that we explore with our body through kettlebelling has something to do with how the kettlebell hits our body from time to time.
00:27:18
Speaker
how the kettlebell pulls us off center, how the kettlebell is somewhat unwieldy, frankly. And it's a very kind of unpredictable weight in many ways, which I think is maybe the fun part about it and also the challenging part about it, right?
00:27:34
Speaker
I want to ask you another question. You emphasize very consistently in your message the importance of intersectionality and the importance of making kettlebell training
Diversity in Fitness Coaching
00:27:44
Speaker
inclusive. Can you tell us what intersectionality means in the context of fitness and then why intersectionality is crucial for creating an inclusive environment? I think that when you look at a word like intersectionality, it's so big and long.
00:28:00
Speaker
But that's meaningful because it pairs up with our identities and we are more than one thing. We are always more than one thing. And when we're making considerations, especially in fitness and when we're designing, we need to make those multi-level considerations
00:28:18
Speaker
and actually include it in the design, in our programming, in the design of that exercise, the biomechanics. Like if someone is really tall, but they happen to have a short torso and a long legs versus someone who's really tall and short legs, long torso, how they move is going to be different. And we want to make that consideration.
00:28:39
Speaker
Yeah, if you have big boobs, we don't want to have collisions happening with the kettlebell, with our movement. And we shouldn't expect it because the movement's been designed primarily for people who don't have them, right? Or say you're hypermobile and you're moving and people are not noticing that alignment for you is not the same thing. You can't just say lockout.
00:29:01
Speaker
You can just say, block out. It doesn't mean the same thing in your body. So our ability to make movement accessible means making considerations for all those parts of your identity. So we take that further into fitness and say, I've shared just like a bit of my life experience. I take all of that with me when I show up in coaching
00:29:25
Speaker
in the gym atmosphere. I am a black woman. I am in a large body. I have chronic illness. My uterus is giving up on me. All of the things that I experience are what I'm going to bring forward through my body.
00:29:41
Speaker
through my life and if we did a better job as fitness professionals to consider the intersection of those things, we would make more people have more enjoyment of fitness, feel welcomed and belonged versus it being like you either fit or you don't or I'm the elite and you are trying to measure up to me. Right. I am your measuring stick. Yes.
00:30:07
Speaker
And typically the eye is the coach and typically the coach is thin and white, young, a lot of the time, right? Yep. And that's when and when it gets fed into like coaching practices, which like all your body is your business card. And that's how you show up in the world, which even doesn't give grace to that individual's intersections, right?
00:30:30
Speaker
Even if they happen to be thin and white, they can be queer. They can still be disabled. There are still many intersections with them and they're not being given the space and grace to bring all of that present into their practice.
00:30:46
Speaker
Why do you think it's important to bring that into the practice? Because it changes your filter. It changes how you have experienced the world. And in many cases, if you're a person in a marginalized community, you haven't been given those opportunities to be curious in your body in those ways. And we need to actually guide people to open up that door because they are the expert of their body, but they've been cut off from it.
00:31:13
Speaker
The same way we've been reaching out for something that's gone, it's not there, whether it's weight loss, all these things, it's disconnecting us from ourselves. And now we're trying to get back to that. So if I don't even broach an understanding that they have more to offer than just how they look here today, then I'm still cutting that part off of them for them. Maybe it's more like your life experience and everything you bring to the table as your business guard.
00:31:42
Speaker
It truly, it truly is. And your coaching skills. And your coaching skills, like let's not forget, like people who have invested their time and energy into really understanding anatomy, understanding biomechanics, practicing it. And I'm not just saying the academic means of it, interacting with people, learning from those bodies that they teach, taking that back. So I have a course called Coaches Corner.
00:32:11
Speaker
And I teach coaches how to teach kettlebells from an inclusive lens. And one of the biggest things that I so much cherish from that experience is that they build their own coaches, man. They take every exercise, every movement. And every time we go through, all I'm asking them to do is reflect from the learning, from the teaching, make some considerations. And then you're asking yourself key questions and you keep doing that and you realize you as a coach are
00:32:39
Speaker
continuously growing and evolving and learning from those bodies. And if you actually took the same time that we do in like even our studies to study yourself, study what you've been learning from the bodies you teach every day, how much more in your business card would you bring forward from your experience of the bodies that you've been working with your own body and the intersection of those experiences?
00:33:06
Speaker
100%, that is a phenomenal idea, which is to have them write their own manual. And I explore this too in a training that I lead, which is that we reflect on who our students are so that it's not about me teaching you these movements and then you memorizing them as though they're going to work for everybody.
00:33:24
Speaker
It's about you looking at these movements and going, okay, now how do I make this work for my people? What do they care about? What do they ask me about? What do they want? Right? That's brilliant. That's brilliant. And I've never heard of that happening before. So how do the trainee coaches respond when you tell them they're going to do that?
00:33:41
Speaker
intimidated a little bit at first, right? And like you said, I don't know anybody else who does that either. And it's an important part of like being able to practically implement your knowledge as we go. And me trying to acknowledge that we have a spectrum of learners too. So that's both a learning tool for them as students in the coaching practice, but then they can implement that as a learning tool to their students
00:34:09
Speaker
going forward. So it just keeps growing and learning from each other. And it's a collaborative, like a community care kind of way of coaching and teaching. It's also very much founded in critical thinking skills. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:34:24
Speaker
Absolutely. So that's where it's not maybe so simple for me to explain like, how do I coach differently? What makes this inclusive? How is this intersectional? All of these factors are put into consideration. A lot of them come from trauma-informed care principles, but how do we put that into fitness? How do we make people safe? How do we create transparency? How do we acknowledge our boundaries?
00:34:51
Speaker
you know, as someone who has, as I said, a really upset uterus. If I am experiencing pain, high amounts of pain, I am managing my health and well-being, certain demands on me on physicality are some expectation that, again, my body's the business card. So then if my body's not functioning as I feel it should, then suddenly my worth drops as a coach.
00:35:16
Speaker
But imagine if you have that coach's manual and that experience, you start to really have that embedded into your understanding of yourself as a coach and be like, oh, I am more than just a body. Coming back to that, I as a coach, I'm not just a coach because of what I can demonstrate.
00:35:35
Speaker
or how I demonstrate my health and my fitness. I have all of this intersection of experience and I can still bring that to the table with my clients and my students.
00:35:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think that teaching movement is actually a smaller part of what we do as coaches and movement teachers. And I think demonstrating not how to relate to a body, but that we relate to our body. Modeling that relationship is a bigger part of what we do. And so that's why I think it matters deeply how we talk about things.
00:36:08
Speaker
Right? In terms of like a big thing for me is using fear-mongering language, like couching everything in, you'll pay for that later, don't do that or you'll get hurt and like kind of starting off with fear and caution instead of courage and curiosity.
00:36:27
Speaker
And so I hear what you're saying is that if you are not feeling well, the more important question is, how do you relate to that in front of your students? Or how do you create the boundaries that you need to create around how you relate to your students? And then how are you going to work with that so that really what you're teaching is that moving is more about performance. It's more about looking a certain way.
00:36:52
Speaker
It's about relationship, right? We keep coming back to this idea that movement is really about how we are in relationship with our bodies and with other people's bodies as well. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:37:03
Speaker
So one of the things that I find very intriguing about how you show up on social media is that you are critical of things that I have long felt were kind of bullshit. And I'm like, thank you for saying that. Because you know how when you can't really articulate what's annoying to you about something, but then someone else does, and you're like, it's a relief. You're like, thank you. So you often bring up the strong first 100 kettlebell snatches in five minutes test.
00:37:32
Speaker
So there's this kettlebell training company called Strong First. And I actually practiced Strong First style of kettlebelling in New York City. And that was like my introduction actually to formal kettlebell training. And I found that it was helpful for me at that stage. It was a little too strict and a little too repetitive and a little too it must always be this way. But in the beginning, I thought it was actually a very good way to start. But I walked in once on a certification that was taking place.
00:37:57
Speaker
Everyone was losing their minds. All of these mostly young kids really to me, like at the time I was like in my late 30s, were like, oh my God, are we going to be able to do 100 kettlebell snatches in five minutes? And I had just had my baby and I was, you know, getting back into shape slowly. And I was like, oh my God, they have to do 100 kettlebell swings in five minutes. In my mind, I was like, well, I guess I'll never be a kettlebell coach because I don't see how that's ever going to happen.
00:38:20
Speaker
Fast forward now, I think I could probably pull it off. But at the time, I was like, there's no way I would ever be able to do that. So you've criticized this test that they have for people who want to be coaches. They have to pass this test. And I went on their website and I saw that there are different weights for different ages and genders and whatnot. But the kettlebell is still pretty heavy. I mean, I think for someone my age, I would have to do 100 kettlebell snatches of about a 35 pound kettlebell.
00:38:47
Speaker
in five minutes, which I know I could do, but I mean, that that would be a lot for someone who doesn't have as much experience as I do and doesn't do a lot of heavy lifting and like barbell snatches, right? Like, I bring this up just as a way to kind of route this next question in context to have that be sort of our
Critique of Certification Tests
00:39:04
Speaker
example. You often critique the fitness industrial complex and its impact on bodies that don't conform to societal ideals. For example, you need to do 100 kettlebell snatches in five minutes.
00:39:14
Speaker
How can we challenge these notions? How can we redefine fitness on a broader, more inclusive scale? What do you think? So I want to make sure I also say that when I was introduced to kettlebells, it was in Strong First and my foundations came from that place.
00:39:31
Speaker
I think it's unfortunate that folks take a critical view as an insult, which is just the question, like to ask the question more broadly, which I think is what we're discussing because there is this industrialization and when we keep things in that box, we keep other things out. So I would share like my first experience or just storytelling, right? Just my first experience of going through the testing for Strong First.
00:39:58
Speaker
I was one of two black women that were there. The other black person, we all knew each other, right? They're a small petite person. When I was first tested, they were still weighing people when you came in the room. So you would come in and you had to be weighed because again, the strength test standards are based on gender and weight.
00:40:24
Speaker
So as you mentioned, 35 pounds or 16 kilo is only if you're a woman over a certain weight. If you're smaller, then you could use a lighter weight, right? So you take this lens. So you've now insinuated that if
00:40:41
Speaker
you're in a larger body and you cannot lift a certain amount of weight. You're not as competent as a coach. How does that? Yeah, I think it's missing something. Yeah. So like, just to pause on that, like, why would that be a criteria?
00:40:58
Speaker
because we are working inside this fitness industrial complex that profits off of weight loss, it profits off of our insecurities, and it profits off of standardizing certain bodies as the goalposts, as the measuring stick, and other bodies as not. So right away, we have a certain set of standards that certain bodies just would not meet that criteria.
00:41:23
Speaker
They can have the exact same skill, demonstrating skill on that lift, but they're in a larger body. If you keep going up and you take even a, it starts to say, oh, you know, while you're, you're larger, so you should do 24 kilo. That is, that's a feat of strength for, for anybody, gender or not, right?
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah. So again, so why do we have pulled that criteria to create this like standard and then describe it as elite? So much of that marketing is, well, you want to be an elite instructor and that's how it's defined. A lot of times too, I think this test problem comes down to the fact that we often measure what's easy to measure instead of what's important. So it's easy to set a timer and set a rep limit and set a weight and go,
00:42:08
Speaker
Okay, can you do this or not? Yes. Instead of like what is actually important about evaluating whether a coach is competent enough or not. And I would say that way, way, way low down there on the list is like actually what they're physically capable of doing, let alone 100 kettlebell snatches in five minutes, which is first of all, when are we ever going to need to do that?
00:42:33
Speaker
What do we ever need to do that is exactly right. And go back to it and ask the question. When I saw people's hands, the way they were ripped and torn and bloody, like there's a bond that's happening through trauma in that space. But it's like, when did that become the determination of your worth and again, your value and the quality of your coaching skill?
00:43:01
Speaker
I can't even imagine what those hands look like. Yes. I forgot about that. Yes. Brutalized hands and then just being repeatedly told though that that's like some mark of honor and that you've like you've worked for it now. You deserve it now. So listeners, if you're not familiar with kettlebelling, there's a high likelihood that
00:43:20
Speaker
At some point in your kettlebell journey, you're going to get some blisters and your hands are going to rip a little bit. And so just like muscle, just like bone, skin is a tissue that needs to be progressively overloaded. So if someone has signed up for this kettlebell certification and then whether or not they get their certification is riding on them being able to do 100 kettlebell snatches in five minutes and their hands have not been worked up progressively enough to be able to tolerate that, it's going to be a bloody mess basically. Yeah.
00:43:49
Speaker
But even even people like for myself, I had to train many weeks before I could go there. But the volume that you encounter in that weekend alone is past that critical mass, of course. So even if you've done, you know, snatch it, that test, you've done it, you're on your own beforehand, you are much more likely to have injury to the skin on your hands because of the volume and because at the time like they were doing testing on like the last day.
00:44:17
Speaker
So you've been training up to the extreme for days before as well. Yeah, I was going to say it would probably happen at the end of that weekend, which was probably very physically demanding. So your hands have already taken quite a bit. Yes, exactly.
00:44:32
Speaker
I don't understand that because it does seem like a system that's very much founded on progressively overloading, being pretty conservative, honestly. I think that's why it was actually a good place for me to start because I tend to go a little too hard in the beginning and I have to pull myself back. I liked that about Strong First, but then when I found out about this 100 kettlebell snatch in five-minute test, I was like, that just seems like the opposite of what they seem to be about.
00:45:00
Speaker
What can you do? It's easy to measure. It's not necessarily measuring anything important in my opinion. Yes. And I've seen people just like being crushed, you know, not passing and there is some mental hurdles to go through. But again, is that a qualifier of a good coach that you have to like overcome this huge mental and physical challenge in order to prove yourself? It doesn't compute for me. It doesn't line up.
00:45:29
Speaker
No, not at all. Not at all. And have you seen people not pass because they couldn't get the 100 kettlebell snatches in five minutes? Absolutely. In that first instance, I was there with friends of mine. And every time we had practice, they had accomplished it. And that day they did not. So what does that what does that even say to them?
00:45:49
Speaker
Right. Yeah, then you also have to take into account the performance stress that's also playing a role in how they do. And so that same performance stress, they're not going to be under when they're teaching their group probably, right? To some extent, teaching is kind of
00:46:07
Speaker
a performance. There's a stress involved in teaching where you are up in front of people, but you're being tested, I'm assuming in front of your coaches, and then you're also being tested probably in front of your peers. That's what it looked like. In front of your peers, always in front of your peers. The amount of anxiety that can arise
00:46:25
Speaker
in those moments, right? How we perform in competition is very different than how we perform when we're just working out. I'm sure that also plays a role. And again, so what they're actually testing, it doesn't sound like that's what they're trying to measure. Do you know what I mean? They're testing someone's ability to perform under a high amount of stress at the end of a grueling weekend. But is that important for teaching? I mean, not to beat a dead horse, but I think that this really, this example really exemplifies a lot of what I see as being
00:46:52
Speaker
Real problematic in terms of how we approach training coaches, how we approach bringing a more diverse group of coaches or yoga teachers or strength coaches into the fitness world, which is what we so desperately need to have, right? Because we need it.
00:47:09
Speaker
People aren't exercising enough, according to their research. And so then we have to ask ourselves, why is that? And I think a big reason that that happens, that people don't go to exercise, they don't see themselves represented in the leadership, right? They don't, they cannot identify with their coach in any way, shape or form. Right. And so I think it's important that we get rid of these unnecessary tests slash barriers to entry.
00:47:31
Speaker
barriers to entry is the exact words we need to reemphasize because that style of teaching and why it's important we have like open up conversation of its value because it exemplifies to that student how to coach. It is a certification. It is an experience of learning to coach. So while they're there,
00:47:54
Speaker
Are you going to be able to help them to disconnect from their personal experience and not bring that into their coaching? So now do you treat people like, well, like you need to get this together. Like your hands are bleeding. So what toughen up? What's going on? Like I had to do it. This is, this is the way you, you're going to have to go through some pain and hardship in order to get to your goal. I had to do it.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yeah, the gatekeeping is what they're learning, basically. Exactly. Enabling more barriers, more barriers to movement, to more people getting up and feeling welcome in movement spaces and more modalities of movement. As you said, I like to throw some barbells.
00:48:39
Speaker
I'll see me with some powerlifting. I like some Olympic lifting. I like strength and power in sport, but I've also removed myself from the nature of competition in that way because I don't want to be in competition with my body. That's the place I'm in right now.
00:48:58
Speaker
is that I've done a lot of competing in my life and I don't want to be in competition with my body. I want space to be curious. I want space to find joy and pleasure. I want space to be challenged and to overcome hard things, but they're never a competition from like with the hard things I did before.
00:49:18
Speaker
I've got one more question for you. For individuals who may be facing similar challenges or who aspire to become fitness professionals, particularly those who are from marginalized groups, queer, trans, disabled, or BIPOC folks, what is some key advice you have to offer them?
Empowering Marginalized Communities
00:49:34
Speaker
I really say just start talking, sharing your story. We do belong here. The fitness space needs you. People need to see their people. And if any part of your identity has you feeling like you don't belong,
00:49:49
Speaker
Just reach out, like for those of us who are speaking up and we're having these conversations, I assure you, any of us will take a DM from a aspiring fitness professional who's looking to find space and looking to find paths, like recommended courses or people who you can train with or take their courses so that you can expand your capacity for believing that you belong.
00:50:15
Speaker
Well, with that, where can people find you, Damali? I am, I'm on the internet.
00:50:21
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm using Damali Fraser, and there's an I in my last name. People always forget that, F-R-A-I-S-E-R. But you can look for me on Instagram, damali.fraser. That is probably the social media place I'm on the most. It's an amazing page. If you are into any of the topics we discussed today, or if you just want to see somebody who shows up authentically and has a lot of information
00:50:47
Speaker
valuable information to share. I highly recommend you follow Damali. Sorry, keep going. Okay. Yeah. So that's my Instagram, Damali dot Fraser. And it's lift off strength.com. If you're looking for my website or want to learn more about my programs and offerings.
00:51:02
Speaker
I do teach kettlebells to one-on-one and have a group program, but I also have a program to teach other instructors on how to be an inclusive kettlebell coach. We go through all of the basics, but we also talk the real talk like this. Fabulous. Thank you so much for joining me today, Damali. Thank you for having me on. I like this movement logic. It's a good shot. Thank you.
00:51:30
Speaker
Okay, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Damali Frazier. As a reminder, if you are picking up what we're putting down here at the Movement Logic Podcast, it does in fact mean a lot to us and it does help us out a lot. If you could simply give us five stars.
00:51:52
Speaker
or leave a written review. Also, if you know anyone who you think would like this episode or any of the episodes that we've created for you, please do spread the love. Share it with a friend. Also, make sure you get on the wait list for Bone Density Chorus, Lift for Longevity via the link in the show notes. All right, that's it for this week. We will see you in two weeks.