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Your Relationship, Your Rules! Non-monogamy tips for beginners and veterans
120 Plays4 months ago
Nadège sits down with sex therapist Nicoletta Heidegger, who is not just an expert in non-monogamy, but a woman who has personally experienced opening up her relationship.
This episode is so empowering because you get to hear from an expert who doesn't just talk the talk; she walks the walk, allowing us to explore non-monogamy from a deeper perspective that helps you show up as your best self in your relationship(s).
Enjoy a conversation that will open your eyes and fill you with tips for non-monogamy, whether you are a beginner, a ENM veteran, or simply curious about this topic!
Nicoletta Heidegger is a licensed marriage and family therapist (#110256) and an award-nominated sexologist practicing in Los Angeles. She specializes in sex therapy as well as Equine Assisted Psychotherapy (EAP). She sees therapy clients (CA residents only) virtually and at her unique ranch office in Los Angeles. She also provides coaching, consulting, education, and retreats to folks around the world.
When not seeing clients, Nicoletta creates weekly content via her hit show Sluts and Scholars: a sex positive, shame-free, educational podcast for professionals who prioritize pleasure.
Episode Website: https://pleasurescience.com/s1e6-non-monogamy-tips
Show Notes
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WEB • www.pleasurescience.com
BLOG • Pleasure Science on Medium
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Connect with Nicoletta:
WEB • https://www.nicolettavheidegger.com/
Instagram @therapywithnicoletta and @slutsandscholars
Information about the orgasm gap
Opening Up by Tristan Taormino
Recommended
Transcript
Understanding Positive Affect Tolerance
00:00:00
Speaker
A lot of people have what we call like a low positive affect tolerance or a nourishment barrier, meaning that a lot of us struggle to receive, a lot of us struggle to take in the the good things in life, whether that be help, support, love, um compliments, ah sexual pleasure. And so you may need to work on your ability to like receive more.
Welcome to Pleasure Science Podcast
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome to the Pleasure Science Podcast, a podcast all about teaching you how to feel healthier and empowered in your sexuality. I am Nadezh and I am so excited because today I am on with Nikoletta Heidegger. Nikoletta
Nikoletta Heidegger on Non-Monogamy
00:00:51
Speaker
is a licensed marriage and family therapist.
00:00:54
Speaker
She is an award-nominated sexologist. She is the host of the top podcast sluts and scholars, and she's someone who went from monogamous to monogamish to an open relationship. So not only is she someone who is obviously a very lovely sex expert, but she walks the walk that she teaches with her clients and her listeners on her podcast So Nicoleta, welcome to this episode all about non monogamy. I am so excited to have you here. Hi, I'm so excited to be here and ah be on the other side of this interview. It is about time that the pleasure science podcast was here. So I'm thrilled to be
00:01:37
Speaker
to be a guest. And I love you. Thank you. I love you too. Yeah, Nicolette and I go way back. um But you know something that we always do when we start off this podcast with all the guests, I always ask the same question.
Redefining Sex and Relationship Success
00:01:49
Speaker
And that is, what is your definition of sex?
00:01:53
Speaker
I'm so glad you asked this because I ask this of my clients all the time because of course our cultural definition is like P in the V sex. And not only does that limit all the fun things you can do, but it also limits all the fun that you can have. And it just, you know, it's there's so many other fun things that can experience pleasure. And so for me, the way I define sex is any act that is pleasurable and consensual. That's it.
00:02:23
Speaker
like very, very broadly because then that means you can have more of it. It also means that like we're taking sort of penetration off as the like gold standard of what is good sex. Um, that sort of baseball metaphor that like it's only good if you like get it in. Um, and so yeah, for me, it's like anything that is pleasurable that is consensual. It doesn't even have to involve genitals. Uh, it doesn't have to involve another person. Um, we could be calling this sex right now, like stimulating our brain in a pleasurable way.
00:02:54
Speaker
I love that. I mean, I'm down to have some pleasure science sexy time with you over the next hour. I'm so here for that.
00:03:03
Speaker
I love it. Well, and I completely agree with that definition. And I think, you know, that's one of the reasons we start off this podcast with that question because our definition of sex is holding us back, right? This mainstream definition.
00:03:16
Speaker
And even thinking of what's holding us back, I also think a lot of the ways that we view relationships and with monogamy as the gold standard of either success or failure of a relationship, yeah it's a big thing that also can either hold us back or at least just cause friction. Like we're we're doing something that we don't question ourselves if we really
Addressing the Orgasm Gap
00:03:43
Speaker
want.
00:03:43
Speaker
Something that's so interesting when we look at, you know, I guess deficits for lack of a better word in relationships, we see a lot of research of the orgasm gap, which for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's where men tend to have more orgasms than women in heterosexual relationships, because just like you said, we're prioritizing penetration. And in first hookups as well.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so there's always these stereotypes. I bring up the orgasm gap because when we're talking about non-monogamy, I feel like a big stereotype is that men want a non-monogamous relationship to have their cake and eat it too. And that that's where a lot of non-monogamous relationships start. But I personally see a lot of women and also a lot of queer people kind of spearheading polyamory and ethical non-monogamy.
00:04:36
Speaker
And a big reason why this can happen, I think is because of the orgasm gap where we see a lot of people being in a monogamous relationship where they're not sexually fulfilled. And then ethical non-monogamy becomes.
00:04:48
Speaker
this option right of, oh, maybe I can have sex that is more pleasurable for me. Maybe I can bring more energy to the relationship. And that's something that I've seen in my research. But what do you see as someone who's an expert in this space? Why do people flock to non-monogamy? Yeah. I mean, first I want to preface it by saying that like I also am a fan of monogamy. like I think when a lot of times people hear that somebody is interested in or practicing non-monogamy,
00:05:18
Speaker
they think that we want to like proselytize everybody to be like, oh, this is the way. And if you are like evolved enough that you will find your way to non-monogamy, like, no, I don't believe that. I think monogamy works well for some people and that's great. For me, what's most important is that we don't slide into non-monogamy, but we decide into our relationship structure. And so kind of like what you're talking about with that relationship escalator, you know, most people are taught that monogamy is the only option. And it's the best option, which you know isn't necessarily true because we have an over 60% divorce rate, um probably higher by this point you know in the US. And so clearly, there's something about it that doesn't work for some people. um So for me, what it's really about is making sure that people know and get to see and get exposed to all of the options that are out there so they can make an informed choice in terms of what works for them.
00:06:11
Speaker
And you know, I see some people who like really feel that it's like an orientation that they like are non-monogamous and that is what they need forever. And I see some people who shift into and out of that throughout their life. You know, we see the same thing with like, um, people's sexual interests and sexuality is like, for some people it feels very like born this way fluid and for others, um, you know, it's not static throughout time. Um, and so in terms of like who I see initiating,
00:06:41
Speaker
I mean, you know to be honest, I don't have like the numbers for it, but I definitely see desires and requests for it like across the gender spectrum. So it's certainly not just men, and I feel like this kind of fits that stereotype that like men want more sex. um Right. And if you're interested in research about that, check out, oh, is it Wednesday Martin, I think? um She's been on my podcast. I think I'm saying her name right. Hi, Wen. But I think What that basically, the issue with that is that it was based on like old research that was done mostly on like people with penises, um because most of sexuality research in the past has been done on men. And so what we you know kind of saw with that is people were looking at spontaneous desire as the filter for who wants more sex. And in reality, people with all those people with vaginas, you know people, gender diverse folks,
00:07:39
Speaker
also want sex the same amount, if not more, but the way that their arousal and desire patterns work were not necessarily being measured in those studies. And so to me, I think the same is probably true for non-monogamy is that between cultural pressures, this like old research that like isn't actually true. Um, and you know, potentially shame and responsive desire and things like that, which we can get into if you want, I think that,
00:08:07
Speaker
you know, men might be seen as the people who are most interested, but I really see it like across the spectrum. um And one last thing you said that I want to touch on is like, if you're not having good enough or great sex in your partnership,
00:08:25
Speaker
Naminogami is awesome in some ways because you don't have to rely on one person for all the things. And I do think it's important to make sure you're like addressing whatever that struggle might be with the partner that you would like to open up with so that you're not outsourcing in a way that feels objectifying, I guess.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, no, that makes total sense. Absolutely. And you know you did mention the spontaneous and responsive desire.
Types of Sexual Desire
00:08:53
Speaker
Do you want to explain quickly what that means for anyone who doesn't understand? Yeah, happy to. This is like my favorite thing to to teach clients and people about. Yay.
00:09:03
Speaker
Basically, in short, I say that in short, I'm a therapist, it's gonna be like a 30-minute ah you know explanation probably, so please, please stop me. But um arousal and desire are different experiences for people.
00:09:17
Speaker
So arousal is the body's like unconscious, physical response to some kind of stimuli. And that doesn't even mean sexual. It could be like, if I jump out and scare you um and your heart starts to race, that means your body is becoming aroused. Your nervous system is turning on. So that's arousal. Desire is more like the head and the heart of like wanting something.
00:09:39
Speaker
And so the thing is with humans, we can experience desire without arousal, meaning you want this thing, but your body is like not bodying the way you want it to. And we can also experience um arousal without desire. We often see this in cases of non-consent where like someone's body can have physical pleasure or arousal demonstrations like wetness, hardness and orgasm, but that doesn't mean they're wanting the thing.
00:10:05
Speaker
And so the way this relates to spontaneous and responsive is spontaneous desire is sort of like the wind blows and you're like, I can have sex. I have a boner. Like you're like just ready. That doesn't seem like there's maybe anything really leading up to it. And the desire and arousal sort of are happening kind of at the same time. Uh, we see this mostly for like testosterone driven people, uh, people with penises and also at the beginning of a relationship and when people are younger.
00:10:33
Speaker
Responsive desire is more seen in estrogen-driven people, um people who identify as cisgender women, um people in long-term relationships, and people as they get older. um And what this looks like is you may not even be thinking about sex or erotic eroticism or erotic content on a day-to-day. You might even have been put into a category of low libido or disinterested in sex. But in reality,
00:11:01
Speaker
You might be someone who needs other things to happen before you can feel desire and before you're open to the idea of getting turned on. And so what that looks like is you might need um to feel a certain way. You might need the house clean. You might need to make sure the kids are asleep. And then you have to sort of make a choice, like, are you open to the idea of experiencing desire?
00:11:26
Speaker
then your mind might do some things like, oh, is the sex worth having? Is it shitty sex? um you know Do I remember that this is good? um And then you make a choice. And then once you start engaging in some sort of erotic play, either with yourself or with someone else that could be listening to erotica, starting to kiss, then as the arousal physically starts to build, then you're like, oh, I remember that I like this. This could be fun. Now I desire sex.
00:11:54
Speaker
Um, and so this is super important because most people just put themselves in category of high and low libido and it's so much more layered than that. Okay. How'd we do on time? and I didn't, I didn't do it too long. No, that was perfect. That was so interesting. And I love the way that you broke that down. Cause even as a sex scholar, I feel like the spontaneous and responsive arousal archetypes.
00:12:18
Speaker
get broken down in ways that are really simplified, and you were so detailed, and that's really helpful, especially when we're thinking of ethical non-monogamy, right? And so one question that I hear all the time from people is, because people who are trying out an open relationship, they're like, OK, wait, there's open relationships. There's polyamory. There's ethical non-monogamy. Like, which is which? Are they the same? What is this? And so just as a baseline to start off, right? like What are these different type of labels in this world? Are they the same or are they not?
Exploring Non-Monogamous Structures
00:12:55
Speaker
So open relationship is really just like to me the blanket term that is we are not monogamous.
00:13:04
Speaker
you know, in some way, shape or form. um But I do think it's important to ask each person what it means to them um because you might have one idea of what something is and then the other person has another idea and you might be speaking a different language based on these different definitions or expectations. So I would say always ask. um I always sort of cringe a little bit when people use ethical non-monogamy or consensual non-monogamy because Like, to me, if it's not monogamy, it should baseline be ethical and consensual. um Or at least working towards figuring out what is ethical for us, what is consensual for us. um Because if it's not, it's fucking cheating.
00:13:48
Speaker
Yeah, you know, if it's not, then there's, you know, an issue with consent. If it's not, then there's, you know, pressure. um And so, yes, I think like, ENM is a, ENM or ethical non-monogamy is like a thing that people might see all over or CNM, consensual non-monogamy. But to me, I kind of just prefer to say non-monogamy because I think the figuring out the ethics and the consent should be just a part of being in relationship. Kind of like we say, like if somebody was sexually assaulted, um you know, I prefer to call that like rape, not sex. Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:28
Speaker
Um, so use it if you want to use it, you know, this is up to each person to define it for themselves and explain to other people what that means. But for me, I'm like, nominogamy. And to me what that means is, um,
00:14:44
Speaker
It's again, I sort of put that synonymously with open relationship is that, and people might define this differently, but it's just like something that is not monogamous. And then under that broad umbrella, you have sort of infinite numbers of terms and experiences that can set up um you know, a structure that works for them. So many different kinds of relationship options. So you've got, we can talk about some of these if you want. But we've got things like polyamory. ah We've got things like monogamish. We've got things like um cuckolding. We've got things like swinging. um We've got things. um Yeah, the the list can go on and on. But that's let's start. Let's dive into some of these things on the list because they're sexy. So polyamory.
00:15:34
Speaker
um which is I think a term a lot of people might know about, but what would be your quick definition of polyamory? Yeah, well, the the sort of definition of the word is polyamory, many loving. um And so it's somebody who like has the capability or a desire um to love and connect romantically with many with multiple people. um That doesn't mean that they're like doing it at this moment. um That doesn't mean they have a partner, but it's sort of like the desire or capacity um to be many loving.
00:16:09
Speaker
um and This can be different than um what I call like polysexual. So this is someone who might want multiple sexual relationships, but may not feel um able to comfortable with or desiring of like multiple like romantic ah partnerships.
00:16:29
Speaker
um And, you know, under these umbrellas, I think there's so many structural things that people can sort of define for themselves. So under the guise of polyamory, some people believe in what's called a hierarchical setup, which means that there's like two people who have either an anchor or a primary partnership. They're each other sort of like, quote unquote, main partners.
00:16:53
Speaker
um or sometimes people will say a nesting partner, like someone that they live with. um And then non-hierarchical is that like all of the potential people in the mix um are sort of on the same playing field. um There's also people who do something called solo polyamory, which means that they don't necessarily have like one primary or anchor partner, but they do have multiple, um you know,
00:17:19
Speaker
committed partnerships of a certain kind. um So that's polyamory and then like I said, polysexuality. um And I love, I want to just also thinking of polyamory because you said something earlier in the episode that was really important that I also find to be true in this community.
00:17:36
Speaker
especially with the term polyamory is people really identify with that almost the way people identify with the sexual orientation, like you had said of like, Oh, I'm queer, and I know I'm queer, right? That's not going to change. And a lot of people that I know, like, yeah ah amorous versus I'm practicing polyamory.
00:17:54
Speaker
Exactly. Like I find, and tell me if you find this too, when we're in communities that are non-monogamous, poly people are like, I am poly, right? and And that's like a part of their and more identity.
00:18:10
Speaker
yeah And for other people, it isn't. But I find with a lot of poly people, it is. And then you said some other fun things like swinging. Another question I hear all the time is like, wait, what's the difference between swinging and not isn't that non-monogamy? Or is that polyamory? So what identifies some people as swingers?
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, so swinging again is another thing under the category of nomenogamy or some type of open relationship. um And in its sort of, I do think like the the way it's being defined as changing in some ways, um as relationship communities are becoming more open, more queer, more there's just more like discussion around how we can challenge some of these like binary experiences of these different relationship styles. But like in its classic um definition, sort of it's usually a partnership of two. um And in sort of like pop culture, we often see it as a male-female relationship, but it can be any gender partnership.
00:19:13
Speaker
um So it's a partnership of two and they have like a primary relationship, a primary, usually romantic partnership, whether they're married or just in some kind of committed setup. And then they play sexually and sort of in a friendship way with either other couples or other individuals.
00:19:34
Speaker
um And so what makes it sort of different is there really is like this established partnership and the play beyond that is a little bit more like sexually or sort of friend with benefits type focus. um There's really this kind of hierarchical setup um with the partners that are playing you know with each other or the individual versus the partners that are playing with each other.
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah, that makes total sense. And then the other one you mentioned, which I think is one of the most fun in this whole umbrella is cuckolding. Yeah, cuckolding is... so so also because And love diving into all of these things because i I hope anyone listening what you get from this is you can make your own rules. You know you can love however you wanna love. but and yeah And speaking of that, so cuckolding, take it away, Nicoleta.
00:20:26
Speaker
If you're listening and you are a little cuck, shout out to you, lots of love to you. um So basically what this is, it it is a setup, um again, under this sort of bigger theme of some type of non-monogamy, where a person gets off on watching their partner with another person.
00:20:49
Speaker
um and or you know someone enjoys being watched by their partner. um Traditionally there's like this element of cuckolding that sort of has a almost like a sexy shaming and comparison aspect because sort of in the the old definition of a cuckold was like someone who's woman like had sex with someone else they cuckold they cuckolded them um like somebody who like left this person for a better, stronger, bigger, sexier partner. um And so this is sort of like taking, re-ownershipping I think that definition as like, um oh actually I kind of get off on the idea of thinking of my partner with someone who I deem to be like hotter than me in some kind of way.
00:21:37
Speaker
way. And so there can be this aspect and cuckolding of like watching your partner with someone who's like very different than you, whether that be like different body size, different um way that they present. um And there's this excitement in watching them have pleasure with this other person.
00:21:57
Speaker
um that's different than what we call, some people call it hot wiping or hot partnering, which kind of doesn't necessarily have that aspect of the comparison sort of degradation kink, but is more like, Hey, my partner's hot.
00:22:13
Speaker
I love to watch people fuck them and know that then they're also coming home to fuck me. like Who else wants to fuck my hot partner? like so The fun one too. um And for people listening who are like, what? I can't believe people do this. like Again, for me, this is just about you knowing what's out there so that you can make informed choices for yourself. This does not have to be for you, um but there are a lot of people who are into it.
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Don't yuck the yum and keep an open mind, little disclaimer, because it is so important and there's so many ways that you can have fun and thinking of that. So, ah you know, people who follow pleasure science, like there's a lot of people in my community who are already ethically non-monogamous. And then there's a lot of people who reach out because this is something that they want to explore.
00:23:00
Speaker
whether on their own as a single person or in a long-term relationship. So what are some tips that you would have? And even if you're open to sharing a little bit of your story, because you're someone who has gone through your own journey as well and has had a very successful relationship opening things up. So youre that's why I was so excited to have you on this podcast for this episode. So what are some tips that you would give folks? And and yeah, feel free to share whatever you're comfortable with with your own story.
00:23:29
Speaker
Thank
Advice for Non-Monogamy Seekers
00:23:30
Speaker
you. Yeah, and just remember like my way is not the way, right? This was like the way that worked for me. And similarly, you know, there's no one right way to to do non-monogamy. It's really about, you know, collaborating and figuring out what works for you and the people that you're um connecting with. And so first I would say do your own fucking work on yourself. Like this,
00:23:56
Speaker
Any relationship is hard and can bring up things within us that really make us look at ourselves. But um I will say that like non-monogamy can often put things into the light where in monogamy those things might be easier to hide from. um And so non-monogamy is sort of like doing a more experiential type of learning on yourself where you're like forced to look at some stuff, whether that be how you self-regulate, self-confidence, your attachment styles. And again, those things can come up in monogamy or all relationship styles, but non-monogamy puts us in situations where there's like
00:24:34
Speaker
more in our face opportunities to be invited into those types of self-work. So, you know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have it all figured out. You don't have to be all healed, whatever that even means, but like do the work, you know, go to therapy, go to somebody who is, um you know, non-monogamy, affirming and um informed as a coach or a therapist.
00:24:57
Speaker
and really work on you know these aspects of yourself. um If you're with a partner I would always recommend going to a coach or therapist who specializes in this so you can get community support um because that's another thing is just you know this is still a stigmatized type of relationship or these are still stigmatized types of relationships so having community is really key. um So yeah looking at yourself um Really making sure that you have and and or are building like an awesome toolbox of self-regulatory things because namanagami might dysregulate you in certain ways, um which is okay. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but like knowing that you have people to talk to, a therapist to speak with, um tools that help you manage feelings that feel a little bit uncomfortable sometimes.
00:25:49
Speaker
um I also think on the other side of this, get ready to like expand your heart and your pleasure potential too. And those things sound like fun and I think on paper fun and easy of like, oh, the good things, I want more room for that. But a lot of people have what we call like a low positive affect tolerance or a nourishment barrier, meaning that A lot of us struggle to receive. A lot of us struggle to take in the the good things in life, whether that be help, support, love, compliments, sexual pleasure. And so you may need to work on your ability to like receive more.
00:26:32
Speaker
um Another thing I would say is um get a good scheduling planner because you're going to need to get better at managing your time. And as a person with ADHD, that can add some spice to it. yeah boy um And it's interesting because I do see a lot of intersection of like I don't really believe in neurotypicalness, but that's a whole other conversation um as like a standardized definition, but I do think people who have more spicy brains, like I do find them being attracted to different kinds of relationships because they think in different ways.
00:27:13
Speaker
um so yeah do some work on your executive functioning and planning. That could be helpful. um And then take some classes, read some books. like there's I love the podcast, who's on my podcast network, Multiamory. They have some great resources and some books. i love ah classic book of A Friend of Ours, Tristan Teremino, Opening Up, um is a wonderful book for that. um There's like an old classic called Ethical Slut that most people read as like their first entryway one. um There's some great ones by a colleague of mine, Kate Laurie, um called Open Deeply. um So there's there's so many things out there, you don't have to do it by yourself.
00:27:54
Speaker
um So get informed about what kind of relationships there are, do the work on yourself, and that's an ongoing thing, but make sure you have support, that you're building a toolbox, um and and do your homework. Yeah, absolutely. And when people do start opening up, what are some things that you've seen as a sex therapist and as a professional in this world that does come up when we start opening up our relationships? Yeah.
00:28:24
Speaker
So again, depending on like what kind of thing it is, you know, sometimes at the initial point, I'll see if someone's in a partnership that one partner is wanting to go faster than the other one um or not wanting to do it at all. So, you know, that can be, that can be something that can be navigated. Absolutely. um There are also relationships where one person is monogamous and the other is non-monogamous and they can work, but it requires a certain amount of like,
00:28:51
Speaker
accepting the other person, um you know, as they are and some other details in there too, but um it is possible. um So yeah, I see that like one person is sort of having to like regulate and sort of slow themselves down and another is having to like stretch themselves a little bit and that can be hard when one person is like anxious and excited about it and the other is like feeling triggered.
00:29:12
Speaker
um yeah Another thing that I see is new relationship energy. So if you've ever been in a new partnership, you know that it can feel really fucking good. Really excited. Well, you know what? Like really good, but also really anxiety provoking. It's like this frenetic, like you just can't. I think it's how we're all a little masochistic, right? Where we're like, I'm so anxious, but I have such a big crush, right? And well, we won't we, you know, so.
00:29:42
Speaker
knowing how to manage that with like the person you've been like farting on the couch with for the last you know five years um can be a tricky thing to navigate and not comparing um jealousy.
00:29:56
Speaker
So I think you know jealousy, people who are non-monogamous, people who are non-monogamous can also experience jealousy um at different rates and levels. um but It's not about like controlling or not having jealousy, it's about how we interact with the jealousy. So people are having to sort of form new relationships with the jealousy where they like look at how it's making them feel and um get curious about like where that's coming from and then having conversations with themselves, with their support, with their partners.
00:30:29
Speaker
um So, you know, I see the jealousy part. um I also see pleasant positive stuff too, right? Like I see people feeling better about themselves, um feeling less like like there was something wrong with them for like cheating or for wanting more. Um, I see people expanding their communities. Um, I see people giving themselves more permission to be themselves to explore. Um, I see people having better sex and bringing that energy either to their relationship with themselves or to a partner. Um, I see people just like expanding their, um,
00:31:09
Speaker
their knowledge of like what's out there and just being more open, being more accepting. um So I really like to highlight those pieces too. um I see people maybe increasing in self-confidence because they're seeing so many different people and body types and relationship styles. See, I really like to highlight these other pieces because like, yeah, relationships are hard, work is required.
00:31:31
Speaker
Non-monogamy can require more work. So I don't think it's just going to be like easier. Yeah, like some them like this person has two boyfriends lucky for them. Meanwhile, they're like communicating until three in the morning and dealing with partner yeah and then partner, you know, like it's and and I also think what's so important too is like monogamy is also work. Any relationship friendships are also work relationships with your family are also work.
00:31:59
Speaker
And so it's interesting cause I feel like monogamy and non or non-monogamy can get it's either two extremes where it's like, wow, they're, they're having their cake and eating it too. And you know, poo poo for them. I'm so jealous that they have these hot lovers and they can do what they want. And then on the other end of the like extreme ideas about this, people will be like, oh, but it's so much work and how could they do, you know? And, um, and that's so hard. And in reality, I think,
00:32:27
Speaker
Well, there is unique work and extra self-work that can go into non-monogamy. That's because you're being activated in ways that will make you grow because relationships do make you grow, but it doesn't mean that That one is going to be more work or harder than the other. Any relationship is work. yeah and um But I love all of these tips, and I especially love all of the positive tips, that the positive results you went over, because that's something that I experienced. like I personally am ambiamorous. I'm happy in a monogamous relationship or a polyamorous relationship, as you know.
00:33:03
Speaker
I've been in several poly relationships, several monogamous relationships, um and I've experienced how they're both work, but I've also experienced how they can create such beautiful results in terms of self-confidence, in terms of communication, in terms of your own capacity to like be a loving human, be an erotic human. What are some things that you experienced as you opened up your relationship that you were like, wow, this is so beautiful and I'm so grateful for this growth. Yeah. I mean, I think that like maybe some of the harder part for me was like,
00:33:42
Speaker
In my current relationship, I was the one who was a little bit more of the like, ready to go faster person. Um, and so it's interesting cause I often see this with with partners. And so for me, it was figuring out like.
00:33:57
Speaker
wow, it's so interesting that like I'm finding myself attracted to this person who has like all these awesome qualities, and then they're not necessarily like experienced in this other thing that I'm saying I'm wanting. I see that a lot, and I will often ask clients, like well, what is it about um this person not being into it that is like attracting you? And like I said, it it can work when you have these like ah you know people who want different things, but i I do see a lot of the times um what a colleague Reed Mahalko of mine used to say, like dating your species, which is like, if you know that there's something you're really into, making sure you find people who are also like into that. But for a lot of people who are discovering non-monogamy, they might not know that clearly going into a relationship until they're like already like deep in it. And so I think for me, it was, you know, figuring out a lot of work around just like being clear with
00:34:55
Speaker
Um, what I wanted and, and you know, practicing my communication skills and getting clear on like, what was coming up for me, you know, around, around a lot of these things and, and fear of like abandonment and, and working on, on all that stuff. Um, and I would say, so for me, it's definitely like enabled me to be a better communicator.
00:35:19
Speaker
Um, it has also, um, given me more compassion, um, for other people. Um, cause I think, you know, growing up in this capitalistic world, it often, and this still happens for me a lot, but I'm working on it. You know, often there's this thing of like, either you're experiencing joy or I'm experiencing joy, but we can't both experience joy because like joy is apparently finite and I have to be having more fun than you. but ah Gemini problems. have it yeah ah so
00:35:50
Speaker
ah whole thing for a lot of people too, I'm just like that we've been taught to compete, right? yeah So it helped me challenge this idea of like competing, especially with other women, um which is what women are often taught growing up to like keep us against each other, um you know, to compare to talk shit about them, to um put them down to uplift ourselves. And so it's it's really helped me become more compassionate, more in the mindset of like,
00:36:18
Speaker
abundant love and experiences and connections. um And that's not easy. you know That's something that that still comes up for me and for a lot of people sometimes. um But you know it's also taught me to be more into a nominogamy, what we call compassion, which is like feeling um joy and excitement for someone else's experiences that aren't necessarily yours or aren't directly connected to you. um So being able to like feel excitement for another human in their human experiences um is really cool. I think it's also helped me realize that like feelings in and of themselves are not good or bad.
00:36:58
Speaker
um I definitely think feelings and sensations can give us information and can tell us things, can help us understand, you know, how something is sitting with us and and what we should do about that. And sort of leaning into that like discomfort or stretching and growing, whatever does not have to be like a bad thing that like feelings that we deem as like negative, whether that be jealousy or whatever, aren't just bad feelings. Um, but instead,
00:37:28
Speaker
it's a cool opportunity to get to like build resilience with like a multitude of feelings and sensations and like being okay with those. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's also so many unexpected moments of joy with non-monogamy too. Like I'll never forget how I had gone on a date with someone um while I was in a non-monogamous relationship.
00:37:54
Speaker
And I went on a date with this person. The date was kind of okay, not not anything to write home about, but it really made me appreciate and miss my partner I already had. And I think that's another unexpected, beautiful surprise in ethical non-monogamy. Like there's the fear of, oh, if we open things up, what if my love falls in love with someone else? And so often I've seen with myself and others that opening things up actually makes you really grateful and appreciative for what you have.
00:38:23
Speaker
because you're realizing like even though you're with a fun, exciting new person, there's new relationship energy, they don't know that when they touch your stomach, you get triggered, but your partner that you've been working like you've been with for years knows all of your things and knows it can like make you really appreciative of what you have and what you've built with someone when you start opening things up as well.
00:38:44
Speaker
Yeah. And there's beautiful parts to both of those, right? Like there's, yeah you know, being with somebody or like monogamy. I forgot who said this, so I'm sorry. I'm not quoting you properly, but that monogamy doesn't have to be monotony, you know? So like that.
00:38:59
Speaker
that it's important too because in our culture I think we've like uplifted that that like new relationship energy that we see in like romantic comedies that that's the like best ideal form of like fun exciting pleasure and I fall prey to that too because I'm like yeah it is pretty fun.
00:39:17
Speaker
who But and being able to get into shout out Dr. Emily Jamia until like she does a lot of work around this, but get into like flow state with somebody that you've practiced a lot with. It's also really cool and beautiful. So like, yeah, there's something beautiful about somebody like knowing you and your body in a certain way, and something really cool and beautiful about like having a beginner's mind with a new person and like exploring that for the first time, because you might like if they touch your belly.
00:39:47
Speaker
you might not like if the other person does. So that's cool too. um And yeah, I think it's also just, um it's just fun. It is fun, no it is fun. is um And you know hard, difficult conversations too, but like,
00:40:07
Speaker
There's just a lot of fun to be had. And to me, you know sex and all the things within pleasure is a way for us to play as adults. So to me, this is like also a way to play myself and with different people. I completely agree. And you know thinking of people who have maybe been ethically non-monogamous for a long time, do you have any thoughts or ideas of like,
00:40:34
Speaker
things that they can do in their relationship or their personal growth journey?
Building Community in Non-Monogamy
00:40:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. If you've already been kind of in in one of these lifestyles for a time, you know I would say you know still to keep doing the work um you know with how you or your partner might be changing over time. um you know Continue to go have checks and balances. Continue to go to, again, a therapist or a coach who's like informed about that. Have community support. have check and balance people who you trust are going to call you out or call you in um on your stuff so that you don't get complacent. um And yeah, like I said, to me, community is key. So just continuing to like connect with other community members um is is really key here, ah in my opinion. Yeah. Where do people find community? like what How would you recommend people find community?
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah, um so I might start with some of those books and podcasts, and some of those will have like online communities that are connected to them. um Next, there's a lot of apps that will have virtual or in-person events or experiences. So for example, the Plura, formerly I think Bloom app, has like um events you know where you are, or at least virtually if you're in an area that doesn't have a lot of in-person events, um where you can meet people like that. um I don't love their interface, but there's also fat life. um People go on their freaking kink and nominogamy and they you know show and host a bunch of events. um But depending on what city you're in, you know there's also um people often host things called munches, which are like non-sexual like meetups at a bar or a restaurant where other nominogamous people will come and hang out.
00:42:18
Speaker
And again, you can find those listed just by searching, like, munches in my area um for Naminogamy. Like, just search the keywords or going on an app like you know um like Plura um and things like that too to find some. And there's often event spaces in big cities, too. Like, here in LA, we have things like 910 WeHo um or other places like that where they will have like beginner entry level ones.
00:42:44
Speaker
um And you know check out the classes that people like myself and Nadej put on because you'll probably also meet people like that and you know in those classes um if it's you know a similar topic that's exciting for you.
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. And I agree. The Plura app is amazing. And there's a lot of really cool crossover in kink communities and BDSM communities and non-monogamy communities. And I also find a really cool crossover in queer and transgender communities too. And so with finding community, like be creative and look at the other parts of your identity, because maybe you'll find poly community through your kinky community, right? Or through your queer community. um And the Plura app too could be because you're like in Namanagami doesn't mean you have to be kinky or doesn't mean you have to be queer and I do find that people who are attracted to these things do become more open-minded so that's why there is this crossover because it's already people who are kind of challenging the status quo and like on the fringe of things so like
00:43:45
Speaker
They're probably into most of them. You don't have to be.
00:43:52
Speaker
No, absolutely. And I bet everyone listening, whether you're poly or non-monogamous or monogamous, you know poly people and you may not even realize it. Because what's also cool is it's a really big and growing community and there are so many folks, you know which is just really wonderful. and I mean, is we've covered so many things today, but are there any other elements of this conversation that like you feel are important to share or anything that's helped you personally in your journey as transitioning from monogamous to non-monogamous? Yeah. I do just want to like normalize that people get to that place or that path in different ways, right? like i
00:44:38
Speaker
not saying that like cheating quote-unquote is a good thing, but like some people do move into quote-unquote ethical non-monogamy if they have noticed that they like haven't been able to make monogamy work. um And so while maybe you may need to have like repair and do the work around what made you feel like you couldn't do it in this like you know other consensual way,
00:45:02
Speaker
um what you know What did you learn from that? So I do see some people like going into it after there's been a rupture. um I see some people going into it because they like were raised in a you know more liberal space. And they like already knew that there were like options for this. you know And I see some people getting into it after 40 years of monogamous marriage because they want to spice things up or because one person finally said that they had a desire. um So I do just want to like, you know it's it's never too late. And I just want to like give permission for like how all the different people
00:45:35
Speaker
um like found their way to it. um And look, I also know people who like practiced those things and then were more ambiamorous, like you said, who were like, oh, you know what? I actually like found this this way back. But um another thing I want to name is while you are exploring, sometimes it can be hard not to fetishize and objectify other people.
00:46:04
Speaker
I think ah because when people are exploring this, they're kind of like, okay, well, what can this do for me? What can Namanagami do for you? um And so sometimes I will see people um not necessarily doing relational work to like connect with the people that they're having these other you know potential partnerships or things with but instead just like objectifying them. So in some circles we call this like unicorn hunting when like a straight couple is looking for a third and they just like
00:46:35
Speaker
don't really like respect and treat that third person as like a human with their own desires they're sort of like oh you're here to just like make our relationship more fun and exciting and if that person's down to be objectified as a unicorn like okay cool but you know as you're exploring this because you might be feeling anxious or a little bit overwhelmed you might not be thinking as compassionately or relationally so just try to check yourself and make sure that you're not like objectifying unless they want to be objectified people, places, things, you know experiences while you're like trying to make your life more the way you want it.
00:47:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. All humans are humans, right? We have feelings. we we're you know and i And I love the idea that like there is no such thing as normal, so everything is normal, right? like Including all of the polyamory, all of this all of this beautiful stuff, and all of the ways we can fall in love. So, Nicoletta, thank you so much for joining us today. Honestly, you have such a beautiful way of breaking down and normalizing this topic, and that's why I was so excited to have you on.
00:47:42
Speaker
And how can our listeners find out more about you, your work, or work with you if they're interested?
Connect with Nicoleta Heidegger
00:47:48
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, I am a licensed therapist in California, so I do see clients in the state of California, but I also do coaching and consulting and ah retreats and intensives outside of California. My website is sort of a mouthful, nicolettavheidegger.com. I'll trust you could put it in the show notes, please. um So people can find me there. I'm also taking a little bit of a social media break, which has been really nice, but I'm still on there sometimes and you can find my links on my Instagram.
00:48:18
Speaker
at Sluts and Scholars or on my other Instagram, Therapy with Nicoleta. So you can find my websites there to contact me, follow me, you know join my email list for when I do host events and things like that. And yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's always great to talk about this with you.
00:48:35
Speaker
Yeah. And just like a plug, Nicoleta's events and retreats are amazing. Sometimes we've done them together. Sometimes I've just come as an attendee, and you're just so great at what you do. And your podcast is amazing. I've been a guest on it. like after I know everybody is going to binge the Pleasure Science Podcast, and then you have to go listen to Sluts and Scholars, right? Because why? to stop Yeah. Well, that is it for this week's episode of pleasure science and the first half of season one. So we're actually going to take a little bit bit of a break over the holidays. But don't worry, we will be back on January 8, with the second half of season one. And we're going to be starting off with a bang as I'll be diving into all things kink and BDSM. So we left things with non monogamy. And now we're going to go into even more
00:49:24
Speaker
Fun, yummy goodness. I promise you, you will not want to miss that. But in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram and TikTok at Pleasure Science. And please remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen, leave a rating and a review. And don't just do this because I know that you love me and you love Nicoleta and we're amazing.
00:49:44
Speaker
But it's also so important to do this because you're showing the global community that we care about this topic and we want more information like this and we support sex educators and the sex industry.
00:49:55
Speaker
So please leave a rating and a review. And you can also watch these episodes on the Pleasure Science YouTube channel. I'm wearing a very fun fur coat today. Nicoleta has the most beautiful red lipstick on, and I know you want to see our gorgeous faces. So go on over to the YouTube channel and don't forget that by listening to this podcast, you also get 10% off the Pleasure Science online courses.
00:50:19
Speaker
We talk about communication. We talk about sexual skills. We talk about sexual healing. They're absolutely incredible. And you get 10% off with the code Pleasure Science Pod. Now, thank you guys so much for joining us this week. I'm Nadezh, your resident sex scholar reminding you to experience pleasure in the next 24 hours. So whether that's enjoying your favorite food, dancing to a song you love, or maybe telling that special someone that you'd like to practice non-monogamy and want to learn what that's about. Go do something beautiful for yourself today. You deserve it.
00:50:58
Speaker
This podcast is a pleasure science production hosted by me, Nadej, your resident sex scholar. The Pleasure Science Podcast is produced by Laura Moore and edited by Camille Furman-Cullo. Our music is by Octasound and is licensed under the Pixabay Content License. To find out more about Pleasure Science and to sign up for our online courses, please visit www.pleasurescience dot.com.