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103 Naomi Gibson | Speculative and Sci-Fi Thriller Author
478 Plays2 years ago
Young adult thriller author, Naomi Gibson is back, fresh off the release of her second novel 'Game Over Girl', which has already become a #1 Bestseller on the Kindle store. Tune in to hear all about what is like writing a second book under contract as well as how advances and royalties work.
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The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsor
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode is brought to you in partnership with WriteMentor.
00:00:03
Speaker
If you're a children's writer, you've probably heard of WriteMentor, and if not, do I have a treat for you.
00:00:07
Speaker
WriteMentor is a group of authors and friends who've built a supportive system for fellow storytellers from picture books up to young adult that delivers mentoring programs, courses and conferences and much, much more.
00:00:17
Speaker
WriteMentor has a range of services, but if you stick around until the end of the episode, you can find out how to get an entire month of their premium subscription, the WriteMentor Hub, for free.
00:00:26
Speaker
So I will see you at the end.
00:00:28
Speaker
Now, let's get back to the
Guest Introduction: Naomi Gibson
00:00:29
Speaker
episode.
00:00:29
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:31
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:33
Speaker
These.
00:00:33
Speaker
Are these your notes about what we're going to say?
00:00:36
Speaker
Anything.
00:00:36
Speaker
Nailed it.
00:00:36
Speaker
It's a short answer.
00:00:38
Speaker
So how many novels did you not finish?
00:00:41
Speaker
Oh my God, so many.
00:00:43
Speaker
It was perfect.
00:00:44
Speaker
What are you talking about?
00:00:45
Speaker
This is not a good one.
00:00:46
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question.
00:00:49
Speaker
I love it.
00:00:50
Speaker
This is it, guys.
00:00:51
Speaker
The big secret to getting publishers and having to write a good book.
00:00:55
Speaker
You had it here first.
00:00:57
Speaker
Wait.
00:00:59
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:01:01
Speaker
Today I'm with one of the first guests ever to record for this podcast, one of my absolute book besties, my co-conspirator on our new podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other
About 'Game Over Girl'
00:01:12
Speaker
Tropes.
00:01:12
Speaker
Go check it out.
00:01:13
Speaker
It's YA thriller author, Naomi Gibson.
00:01:16
Speaker
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
00:01:19
Speaker
Welcome back.
00:01:19
Speaker
How's it going?
00:01:20
Speaker
How's 2023?
00:01:21
Speaker
Well, it's day three of 2023 and so far, no complaints.
00:01:28
Speaker
So far.
00:01:30
Speaker
Let's talk about the exciting thing, which is in two days time, but by the time this comes out, it will already be out.
00:01:37
Speaker
Your second novel, Game Over Girl, out January 5th.
00:01:41
Speaker
Tell us about it.
00:01:42
Speaker
tell you about it oh my gosh okay um well i'm really excited about it oh but that's good it's good yeah that helps that helps um it's the thriller that i've always wanted to write um and then it's it's another ya thriller in case um you don't know who's listening i i write thrillers
00:02:00
Speaker
So it's about a girl with a dark secret who plays a VR game and her secret unravels inside of her game world.
00:02:09
Speaker
And it's really close to my heart because, you know me, I love writing about humans and technology and how they, there's like a relationship between the two things, I think.
00:02:22
Speaker
And my first book was about AI.
00:02:24
Speaker
So it was only a matter of time before I got to VR, I think.
00:02:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:28
Speaker
True, true.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah, so this is that book.
00:02:31
Speaker
This one is all about VR and how we might use VR to tackle our inner secrets.
00:02:38
Speaker
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:39
Speaker
That's cool.
00:02:40
Speaker
So, like, you mentioned Every Line of View, your first novel, also a thriller.
00:02:45
Speaker
So they're always, it's, so far, both of them are sort of sci-fi-ish thrillers with technology, but there is a romantic component as well.
00:02:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think I like writing a sort of romantic element to books.
00:02:59
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It's what I like reading, so it makes sense to put them in my books.
00:03:02
Speaker
And I do have that, but not as strongly as Every Line of View.
00:03:06
Speaker
This one is probably more of a straight-up thriller.
00:03:08
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:10
Speaker
I did actually miss writing a romance element because from a craft point of view, they make for really easy subplots.
00:03:20
Speaker
And if you want to have something else going on, like a B story, a romance is a really good way to do that.
00:03:25
Speaker
It's really compelling.
00:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, and it is.
00:03:27
Speaker
Who doesn't love people falling in love?
00:03:31
Speaker
Will they, won't they?
00:03:32
Speaker
Will they, won't they?
00:03:33
Speaker
Exactly.
00:03:35
Speaker
Love Triangle, which you can check out on our other...
00:03:39
Speaker
yeah when that episode comes out you'll be able to check it out yeah so i mean even with every line of you though that it did feel more thriller than romance yeah do you think you'd ever lean heavier into romance in one of these so that's an interesting question because i think um i don't really read a lot of straight up romances and so i wouldn't really want to write one i think because i probably wouldn't really know what i'm doing yeah because for me i would struggle i'd be like okay so the romance is the a story what's the b
00:04:08
Speaker
It's kind of like the reverse, isn't it?
00:04:10
Speaker
You put the secondary, what I would call a primary plot, you'd put as a secondary plot and it would probably come out all the way.
00:04:16
Speaker
I don't think I would do that.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's actually much harder than I think most people realize writing romance.
00:04:22
Speaker
And you have to have the right head for it.
00:04:25
Speaker
I agree.
00:04:25
Speaker
As you say, yeah, you just need to know that you can write a compelling enough romance with good enough characters and conflict to have that as your main storyline, which I think is so difficult.
00:04:37
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Yeah, for sure.
00:04:38
Speaker
I think I probably also gravitate towards someone dying or something really horribly.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:42
Speaker
Which does not make for a mess.
00:04:46
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Would you ever write something that's not a thriller?
00:04:51
Speaker
Yeah, I have written... Oh, can I tell you about it?
00:04:55
Speaker
Okay.
Expanding to Adult Horror
00:04:56
Speaker
You can tell me whatever you want.
00:04:58
Speaker
Sell me your soul.
00:04:59
Speaker
Okay.
00:05:01
Speaker
So I just finished writing my first adult horror book.
00:05:06
Speaker
I finished it, I'm so proud of myself, I finished it on the 31st of December at 8pm.
00:05:11
Speaker
So my goal throughout 2022 was to write a new book and it was getting to the end of the year and I was like, oh shit, I'm not gonna be able to do this.
00:05:19
Speaker
And this new idea hit me for a horror book.
00:05:23
Speaker
I wanted to write a straight up adult book for a while.
00:05:25
Speaker
And this idea hit me in the middle of November and I chased it and I finished it at 8pm on the 31st of December.
00:05:31
Speaker
I was so trapped with myself.
00:05:33
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That's dedication.
00:05:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:35
Speaker
And it worked out well for dinner as well.
00:05:37
Speaker
We had dinner like a minute later.
00:05:38
Speaker
So we finished it in time for dinner too.
00:05:42
Speaker
It was all quids in for you.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:43
Speaker
All the cards aligned.
00:05:46
Speaker
Are you then someone that works best when you are under the immediate threat of an upcoming deadline?
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, interesting question.
00:05:57
Speaker
I don't know.
00:06:01
Speaker
I think this, I think I was pantsing that book, you know, you know me.
00:06:05
Speaker
You're a pantser too.
00:06:06
Speaker
So yeah, kindred spirits.
00:06:08
Speaker
Less pantsy.
00:06:09
Speaker
Less pantsy.
00:06:09
Speaker
Oh, you're nervous.
00:06:10
Speaker
Had too much of an influence on you.
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, I spent too much time with Melissa.
00:06:16
Speaker
um yeah so i'm a panther and um i was just chasing this book uh writing pretty much whatever came to mind and i was having such a good time doing it that i managed to meet my deadline um i was tempted to leave it and think about it for a while and maybe it would go into the new year but i was like no i think i can finish it so i just um yeah i got it to the deadline that i set myself but um
00:06:38
Speaker
I've never really struggled to meet a professional deadline.
00:06:41
Speaker
Even though I am a pantser, maybe I'm a bit of an organized pantser, I don't know.
00:06:48
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I always seem to make it.
00:06:49
Speaker
I don't know.
00:06:49
Speaker
I don't know if I rise to the occasion.
00:06:51
Speaker
It just seems to happen.
00:06:52
Speaker
So we'll see in the future.
00:06:55
Speaker
For the first draft though, because I feel like, well, we talked about this before with Melissa as well, where we were saying like, if you do discovery writing, AKA pantsing, it kind of is like doing a plan, but your plan is just your first draft, your like vomit draft.
00:07:11
Speaker
And then your second draft is more like what your first draft would be if you were an intricate planner.
00:07:17
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Yeah, I think that's probably the case.
00:07:21
Speaker
I've never handed in a first draft where I've just pantsed it.
00:07:25
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I do go back and edit before I send it in, for example.
00:07:29
Speaker
But yeah, it's always, I don't know, it's just worked out for me.
00:07:31
Speaker
Long may it continue.
00:07:34
Speaker
So, second book, first of all, from the inception of this, how you kind of worked through it all the way to publication, was it a very different experience from every line of view?
00:07:50
Speaker
Yes.
00:07:51
Speaker
Book two was a lot harder to write.
00:07:56
Speaker
I think you've probably heard this before quite a few times, I'm sure.
00:08:01
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new, but book two was a lot more difficult.
00:08:06
Speaker
Like I've just said, I'm a panther.
00:08:08
Speaker
I love to chase an idea and see where it ends up naturally, whereas this idea, it was a pitch, and I wrote it from a synopsis, and I found that quite...
00:08:19
Speaker
hard um which is because it was all laid out in front of me and i kind of knew what i was aiming for i knew what i was working towards um so none of it was like really a surprise to me and i love to be surprised when i'm writing i love to like let a story take me to somewhere that i didn't know it was going to go um and just like wake up one morning um and you know not know what i'm going to write that day and then it comes out and you're like oh that's brilliant you're a genius
00:08:45
Speaker
Whereas if it's like out in front of me in the synopsis, I already know what I'm aiming for and I find it less exciting to write, I guess.
00:08:54
Speaker
And I suppose that from that point of view, it becomes more of like finding the right words and edging the story towards the right beat that I need to hit my synopsis.
00:09:04
Speaker
So yeah, it was a very different process.
00:09:06
Speaker
But I recognize that this is probably the way around that books are actually written for the industry.
00:09:12
Speaker
Like it was a two book contract and you have your second book locked in already and you just need to come up with the idea and pitch it and they say yes and then you go and you write it.
00:09:22
Speaker
So there's no, unless you have a manuscript in your drawer, you know, it's probably going to be that way around for the majority of your writing career.
00:09:31
Speaker
So I recognize that, you know, I used to get better at writing from synopsis.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah, because if the deal's already locked in, you have to give them a book.
00:09:40
Speaker
They need to sign off on something that is at least close to, in some degree, what the final thing is going to be.
00:09:46
Speaker
I'm sure there's leeway.
00:09:47
Speaker
You can change it.
00:09:48
Speaker
You can work with the editors and things.
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:09:51
Speaker
For me, I had a two book deal with Chicken House, which I was really lucky to get.
00:09:56
Speaker
And originally, my second book was going to be a sequel for Every Line of View.
00:10:02
Speaker
So I tried to be clever.
00:10:03
Speaker
I had written that sequel, by the way.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I tried to be clever and pitch an idea for a third book to get another contract.
00:10:11
Speaker
And I sent my pitch to my editor and I was really excited.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I was like, you know, it's going to be this idea of a girl playing a VR game.
00:10:20
Speaker
And inside that game, she's building a house on each level on the house.
00:10:23
Speaker
It's something that happened to her and we go through the house unraveling her secret because she thinks her mother died and then it all comes out how she actually died.
00:10:32
Speaker
And yeah, the more time she spent in her house, the more time, the more she discovered that she'd hidden something in the basement, she'd hidden the truth in the basement.
00:10:39
Speaker
It's all about her going to that basement.
00:10:42
Speaker
And so I read this really excited sort of pitch to my editor and she was like, yes, that's your second book.
00:10:47
Speaker
So I was like, oh, die it.
00:10:50
Speaker
So yeah, it was decided that you can write a sequel whenever you want, I suppose.
00:10:56
Speaker
If your first book has done well, you don't necessarily need to write a sequel straight away.
00:11:01
Speaker
So we thought it would be stronger to go out with a standalone book as a second book of my contract because just in case that every line of you didn't do that well, then I've got this other book that's a fresh idea and you're not trying to plug a sequel to something that hadn't performed as well as they might have wanted.
00:11:18
Speaker
True, true.
00:11:19
Speaker
Although, I mean, I do think that some people do need to be told that there is a time limit, perhaps with sequels.
00:11:27
Speaker
Patrick Rothfuss, we're looking at you.
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah, looking at you, right?
00:11:31
Speaker
Me with a wind.
00:11:32
Speaker
Getting back to you.
00:11:33
Speaker
So, I mean, you led me perfectly onto what I was going to ask next, which was, that was two of two for the book deal that you signed.
00:11:42
Speaker
What are your next steps
Balancing Writing and Life
00:11:45
Speaker
as an author?
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:46
Speaker
Next steps with an author.
00:11:47
Speaker
Well, I have written an adult book, which I'm very excited to ram in my agent's face as soon as possible.
00:11:55
Speaker
Please, Jerry, if you're listening.
00:12:00
Speaker
And I'm pitching for a second contract for YA books as well.
00:12:03
Speaker
I want to be an author who writes cross category, because that just makes sense.
00:12:09
Speaker
I like writing.
00:12:12
Speaker
authors that do that.
00:12:13
Speaker
I can think of a couple that come to mind already, like V. Schwab and Holly Black, and they're writing... Neil Gaiman.
00:12:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:12:22
Speaker
I just think as an author, as a writer as well, it gives you flexibility and you can chase ideas, whatever category they are.
00:12:30
Speaker
and not be pigeonholed into one area.
00:12:31
Speaker
So that would be something that I would really like to be able to do.
00:12:35
Speaker
But in terms of actual ideas, for my YA stuff, I'm going to continue that sort of thriller tech angle.
00:12:47
Speaker
And I've got an idea about a hologram
00:12:50
Speaker
Um, and I've got an idea about clones as well.
00:12:52
Speaker
So.
00:12:53
Speaker
Okay.
00:12:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:54
Speaker
I like it.
00:12:54
Speaker
You're going through all the kind of cool AI, the futuristic sci-fi stuff.
00:12:58
Speaker
I love it.
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:59
Speaker
That kind of like near future kind of thing.
00:13:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:01
Speaker
So when you say, uh, you're, you're, you're pitching for new YA stuff, is that a sort of open, like, is that you and, and Joanna Malt, your, your agent going out to sort of all publishers or, or are you still kind of talking with chicken house?
00:13:15
Speaker
Do they have like a first right of refusal thing?
00:13:18
Speaker
Yes, my contract did have one of those in.
00:13:22
Speaker
I'm not actually sure if I write an entire book or if it's just pitches, but yeah, basically I'm in discussions with my editor at the moment for what will come next, and we're just trying to iron out something that we both like the sound of, you know?
00:13:38
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:38
Speaker
Because I did find it hard writing book two from a synopsis, and at times it was really a struggle.
00:13:43
Speaker
So I want to make sure that whatever I'm going with next...
00:13:47
Speaker
is an idea that I can definitely pull to full length because, um, I think in one of my drafts that I did of Game of a Girl, you know, it was only maybe like 45 K and that is really short.
00:14:00
Speaker
And it was only through the editing process that I pulled it to like what it is now, which I think is 67.
00:14:05
Speaker
So, um, yeah.
00:14:09
Speaker
And now that you've done it once, do you think you'd be better at writing from a synopsis now that you've kind of learned the things you need to learn from that experience?
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think so.
00:14:18
Speaker
It's so funny, isn't it?
00:14:21
Speaker
Because when you write your first book, it's probably this labour of love.
00:14:27
Speaker
Whereas your second book, you do go through the same process, but you do it in a much shorter time period.
00:14:35
Speaker
So I wrote maybe eight or nine drafts of my first book.
00:14:39
Speaker
I only wrote maybe four of my second, but it was just as...
00:14:46
Speaker
you know, the same developmental stuff going into it, it just like, it was all captured within less drafts because of the time constraint.
00:14:53
Speaker
Um, so I think I, I've learned a lot.
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:14:55
Speaker
Um, uh, and, um, it was definitely eyeopening because that's like I was saying before, that's, that's how the industry works really if you're in contract.
00:15:03
Speaker
So, um, yeah, it was definitely good to go through it.
00:15:05
Speaker
And I feel lucky that I've gone through it where I have because chicken house is so lovely.
00:15:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:12
Speaker
And then with your third book, it's just YOLO, I'm going to do a different genre, different age group.
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, you know.
00:15:19
Speaker
So I switched it all up then.
00:15:22
Speaker
Getting back to you a little bit.
00:15:24
Speaker
So I wanted to talk a bit about the industry itself.
00:15:28
Speaker
And now that you've been in it and around it for a while, but you still have a full-time job, even though you have now two books and three.
00:15:36
Speaker
And obviously Game Over Girl has literally just come out.
00:15:39
Speaker
So that will...
00:15:40
Speaker
continue to grow.
00:15:42
Speaker
But now that you've been through the publishing machine a couple of times, you kind of know how it goes, what to expect.
00:15:51
Speaker
Are you going into this book launch with a more sort of seasoned expectation than with your debut?
00:16:02
Speaker
Ooh, a seasoned expectation.
00:16:03
Speaker
I don't know if I'm not seasoned yet.
00:16:05
Speaker
Well, I wanted to do a neutral description for those expectations.
00:16:09
Speaker
No, no, no.
00:16:10
Speaker
I'm just thinking like, oh, well, how I learned actually.
00:16:13
Speaker
I learned nothing.
00:16:15
Speaker
I learned nothing.
00:16:16
Speaker
I just turned up.
00:16:18
Speaker
Yeah, because I work full time, I use a lot of my leave to write.
00:16:24
Speaker
So...
00:16:28
Speaker
I think I struggled last year in 2022 for time off that was genuine time off, you know, when you're not writing and you're not actually working.
00:16:40
Speaker
And I think I became one of those people who were like, oh, so how do I, what do I do by free time?
00:16:46
Speaker
You know, if I'm not writing and I'm not working, it was really difficult.
00:16:50
Speaker
So I think what I've learned for this book is to, you know,
00:16:57
Speaker
just protect your time, protect my time.
00:16:59
Speaker
And I think I said this to you before, I think I was shouting myself horse online.
00:17:07
Speaker
I've got a boat coming out.
00:17:09
Speaker
Everyone needs to buy it.
00:17:10
Speaker
You know, I'm being, I'm being a lot more careful this time around, not choosing where I put my energy, choosing, um,
00:17:17
Speaker
how much I try yelling about it because you have no control over other people and whether they will buy it or not and I think I've realized that that's definitely something I've learned um in the fact that no matter how hard you try you can't force people to buy your book yeah um so it's just like this time around I'm definitely being more careful and choosier with with what I do in terms of promotion and coming on excellent podcasts like yours
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you're, in some ways, you're taking care of yourself better.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say so for sure.
00:17:50
Speaker
Definitely mental health wise as well.
00:17:52
Speaker
Because it can be so all consuming, you know, if you let it.
00:17:55
Speaker
You can get so obsessed with figures and rankings and how well something's doing.
00:18:02
Speaker
And it's just like, it's not healthy.
00:18:04
Speaker
And I think even though, so working full time and trying to write is really difficult.
00:18:10
Speaker
I don't think I could ever be a full-time writer because I think I would need something else to distract me from sales, from marketing.
00:18:20
Speaker
Because it's just too personal, you know?
00:18:23
Speaker
It's just...
00:18:25
Speaker
It's almost like you're putting your baby out there and people are judging it.
00:18:29
Speaker
And then you're seeing these reviews come in and, you know, what if they're not good?
00:18:33
Speaker
And it's just too hard to sit there and watch it happen.
00:18:36
Speaker
So I think I would need something part-time even just to distract me from publishing world.
00:18:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:43
Speaker
To force you to kind of switch it off.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:46
Speaker
Just to force me to think of something else for sure.
00:18:49
Speaker
Oh, that's interesting.
00:18:51
Speaker
So let's talk.
00:18:53
Speaker
I want to talk a bit about numbers here because I talk to a lot of people who don't know about publishing, don't know about writing.
00:18:59
Speaker
You know, my friends, family will ask me questions.
00:19:02
Speaker
It's like, oh, how does this work?
00:19:03
Speaker
How does this work?
Understanding Publishing Contracts
00:19:05
Speaker
When you have an advance, you get an advance and then, am I right in thinking, that works by you earn it out by selling books and you will only ever see the return of book sales once your advance has been paid out?
00:19:25
Speaker
Yes, that's correct.
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:26
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:27
Speaker
So did you have this, was it the same advance for both your books?
00:19:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, so it was a two book deal with the same figure for both books, yeah.
00:19:38
Speaker
And when do they give you the advance for the second book?
00:19:40
Speaker
Is it after they've accepted the pitch?
00:19:43
Speaker
Yeah, so it probably depends on your contract.
00:19:47
Speaker
Mine was, so my advance for both books is split into three.
00:19:52
Speaker
When I signed my contract, I got the first part of my advance for both books.
00:19:59
Speaker
Okay, okay.
00:20:00
Speaker
So for easy figures, let's say your advance is £3,000 and it's split into three.
00:20:06
Speaker
So when I signed my contract, I got £1,000 for my first book and £1,000 for my second book.
00:20:13
Speaker
And then for the second part, you get your next chunk of...
00:20:20
Speaker
sent to you when when they've accepted your manuscript so after you signed your contract you go and you edit your book with your editor until it's ready for copy edits and at that point when it's ready for copy edits um the publisher have probably accepted the manuscript and that triggers the second part of your advance um so i got the second part of my first book
00:20:42
Speaker
And then on publication day, you get the third part of your book.
00:20:47
Speaker
So at the moment, because it's the 3rd of January and my book is published on the 5th, I haven't got my last part of my advance for book two.
00:20:57
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:20:58
Speaker
No, that makes a lot of sense.
00:20:59
Speaker
And also it kind of works both ways.
00:21:02
Speaker
I feel like both the author and the publisher are protected with that system.
00:21:06
Speaker
I think so, yeah.
00:21:07
Speaker
I think three parts works really well because everybody knows where they're at with it.
00:21:12
Speaker
But I've heard people's advances being split into like five or seven stages and it's like, that sounds really confusing.
00:21:19
Speaker
I don't know.
00:21:20
Speaker
Okay, so it does vary book to book.
00:21:22
Speaker
I think so.
00:21:23
Speaker
Publishing house, yeah.
00:21:24
Speaker
I think that's maybe more common in America, but I'm not 100% sure.
00:21:27
Speaker
I've heard of it more of a bit.
00:21:30
Speaker
Three seems to be quite common for the UK, but I don't know.
00:21:34
Speaker
Okay.
00:21:34
Speaker
And I mean, I know that all of these, all of these contracts are almost all unique.
00:21:39
Speaker
You know, there's, there's always little quirks that are different.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah, there's that too.
00:21:41
Speaker
I don't think there's one off the shelf.
00:21:43
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:44
Speaker
No two authors will likely have the same, they'll have similar contracts, but there'll probably be a few differences between them.
00:21:50
Speaker
And that's to do with the agents as well.
00:21:52
Speaker
So it's a whole, it's, it's lots of juggling of things up in the air.
00:21:55
Speaker
Do you want to judge about our earning it?
00:22:01
Speaker
I did, but I didn't know how to phrase it.
00:22:04
Speaker
Okay, well, I'll lead up.
00:22:06
Speaker
Go on.
00:22:07
Speaker
Why don't you just take over the interview from this point on?
00:22:09
Speaker
It's just fine.
00:22:11
Speaker
So, Adam, after you have received your £3,000 advance and it's all signed off and it's publication day and you've had the last part and you've got all of your advance and your Asian has taken their cut, you then have to out... We don't have to, but it's ideal if you out-earn that £3,000.
00:22:29
Speaker
And the way to do that is through hard sales of books or through foreign territory deals.
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:38
Speaker
So does that mean ebooks wouldn't count?
00:22:41
Speaker
Oh sorry, yeah.
00:22:43
Speaker
Ebooks, audiobooks help as well towards your advances.
00:22:48
Speaker
The way that I out-earned mine for every line of you was through foreign territory sales.
00:22:53
Speaker
So I did, every line of you actually did amazingly well.
00:22:57
Speaker
It was like nine territories in 11 countries.
00:23:00
Speaker
And it got options for a TV series as well.
00:23:03
Speaker
And so what happens is all of those advances that you get offered by those foreign territories go towards your UK advance.
00:23:12
Speaker
I think I get 80% of them and my publisher gets 20% of them.
00:23:16
Speaker
So they've made money off them as well.
00:23:18
Speaker
It's not just like, it doesn't always go to me.
00:23:20
Speaker
And the same for the TV deal.
00:23:22
Speaker
that helped me out earn as well um and um so let so your advance is three thousand pounds let's say and all your foreign territories have pushed you up to your three thousand pounds so you you've basically um out earned your advance and anything after that that you get you get um purely to your pocket um within the terms of your contract so like i just said your publisher will take 20 of whatever you get foreign territory wise
00:23:49
Speaker
You know, that's what's in my contract.
00:23:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:51
Speaker
And any sales that you earn after that £3,000 would be royalties.
00:23:55
Speaker
That's how you start triggering royalties.
00:23:58
Speaker
Okay.
00:23:59
Speaker
So can you out earn your advance before it's been paid out in full?
00:24:08
Speaker
Yes, technically.
00:24:09
Speaker
That was what happened to me with every line of view.
00:24:11
Speaker
I knew that I would out earn it straight away, but I didn't get any of the money until my royalty statement.
00:24:18
Speaker
Right.
00:24:19
Speaker
Okay.
00:24:19
Speaker
Okay.
00:24:20
Speaker
So it's like, I knew it was coming to me, but you don't get it until you get your first royalty statement.
00:24:25
Speaker
Okay, that's really interesting.
00:24:27
Speaker
It's really good to know going into these kinds of things, how these works, how the kind of minutiae interacts.
00:24:36
Speaker
Because I think most people probably don't know or think about these things before they get into it.
00:24:42
Speaker
You're just very enthusiastic about writing and you've got an agent and you've signed with a publisher and it's all great, but it's good to know the details.
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah.
Advice for New Authors
00:24:50
Speaker
Staying on the theme of expectations, what tips would you give to writers who are just getting into publishing now?
00:24:58
Speaker
Maybe they've just signed with an agent or they've got interest from a publisher.
00:25:03
Speaker
Wow, what tips would I give?
00:25:05
Speaker
Congratulations.
00:25:08
Speaker
If you signed with an editor and a publisher, that's really, really exciting.
00:25:13
Speaker
Tips-wise, I would try and form a good relationship with your editor.
00:25:19
Speaker
I get along with mine really, really well.
00:25:22
Speaker
not cassia lupo the very same no she's great we love cassia yeah she's so um easy to chat to she's really friendly and i have a good relationship with her and i'm comfortable pitching direct to her and just copying my agent in um you know i'm comfortable asking her questions i obviously it's a professional relationship um and i don't like
00:25:45
Speaker
tell her everything because that would mean you know probably go against me but um and uh yeah i just get i would get try and get to the point where you have like a good rapport i would say um yeah that's not always the case though i mean that's um a lot of people will do all of their pitching to their agent and their agents will will do most of the of the talking in that relationship
00:26:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think so.
00:26:08
Speaker
And that's what they're there for as well.
00:26:10
Speaker
Use your agent, absolutely.
00:26:14
Speaker
I'm not saying don't, by the way, if anyone's reading that.
00:26:19
Speaker
They are both very different sides of the table.
00:26:22
Speaker
And your agent is definitely on your side.
00:26:25
Speaker
But yeah, just if you can strike up a good relationship with your editor, it's never gonna hurt you.
00:26:32
Speaker
No, of course not.
00:26:34
Speaker
It's always, I mean, everyone, you want to be working with lots of people who are sort of like-minded to some degree.
00:26:40
Speaker
You're all trying to create the best possible book you can.
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah, and like, you know, it's a small industry and people get reputations.
00:26:47
Speaker
You don't want to be one of those authors.
00:26:49
Speaker
Oh, I don't know.
00:26:51
Speaker
Okay, okay.
00:26:52
Speaker
Maybe I should wrap this up before this gets scandalous.
00:26:55
Speaker
No, I don't mean it.
00:26:56
Speaker
I don't like IT.
00:26:56
Speaker
I'm just saying, like, it's a conversation I want to be.
00:27:00
Speaker
Oh, but it's a conversation.
00:27:01
Speaker
I don't want to be one of those authors who's hard to work with.
00:27:03
Speaker
So no one wants to work with you, you know?
00:27:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:06
Speaker
That's basically what I'm trying to say.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:11
Speaker
Well, congratulations on, I was going to dial it back here, but you already mentioned it, that you, and anyone who follows you on Instagram or Twitter will already know this, that you did finish your manuscript on the day before New Year's, well, on New Year's Eve.
00:27:29
Speaker
And you already told us what it was.
00:27:30
Speaker
So horror, is this going to be your new genre?
00:27:34
Speaker
Is horror a pivot that you'd be interested in doing?
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's so weird.
00:27:38
Speaker
I never thought I'd be a horror writer.
00:27:39
Speaker
Horror is scary.
00:27:42
Speaker
I only really started reading horror maybe like three years ago.
00:27:45
Speaker
And yeah, I think there's certain types of it that I definitely gravitate towards.
00:27:50
Speaker
I love psychological horror.
00:27:52
Speaker
This is probably that, I would say.
00:27:54
Speaker
That crosses over kind of into Every Line of You and Game Over Girl to a degree.
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
I'd say so.
00:28:01
Speaker
I think Game of a Girl is probably quite a psychological thriller.
00:28:03
Speaker
But I find people fascinating in psychology.
00:28:09
Speaker
So yeah, I think psychological horror is something I'd definitely like to dip a toe in.
00:28:14
Speaker
What was your question?
00:28:15
Speaker
I'm just babbling.
00:28:20
Speaker
Sorry.
00:28:20
Speaker
But before we, before we, before we kind of, uh, outro this, uh, into the next thing, I did want to ask, um, always fun to ask people, especially when they've been on the podcast before, how much has your, and we, we did touch on it.
00:28:33
Speaker
Um, how much has your approach and style to writing, uh,
00:28:37
Speaker
evolved since way back when you first started writing.
00:28:40
Speaker
I know you still do panting slash discovery, but have you tried plotting?
00:28:45
Speaker
Have you experimented with different styles?
00:28:49
Speaker
Yes.
00:28:50
Speaker
This year I've experimented quite a lot with post-it notes, which I haven't discovered are not for me.
00:28:57
Speaker
I tried, but again,
00:29:02
Speaker
So I'm quite a big fan of the three-act structure.
00:29:04
Speaker
And the whole thing with post-it notes is that you can stick your first app down and stick it again on the second app, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:10
Speaker
And you can move your post-its around.
00:29:11
Speaker
And it's quite good from that point of view.
00:29:13
Speaker
But again, you know...
00:29:16
Speaker
I can see it.
00:29:16
Speaker
I can see my book and I don't like it.
00:29:20
Speaker
I like to take it by surprise because as you're writing it and then, you know, when people are reading it, they're taking it by surprise too.
00:29:26
Speaker
And that makes for really nice, natural little twists.
00:29:29
Speaker
And that's kind of what I chase down, I think.
00:29:32
Speaker
So personally, it's more interesting for a little while, but I don't think that's for me.
00:29:37
Speaker
So I've stuck to my main method of just scribbling on a big whiteboard.
00:29:41
Speaker
That's cool.
00:29:43
Speaker
Wait, you have a big whiteboard?
00:29:44
Speaker
That's cool.
00:29:45
Speaker
Yeah, probably.
00:29:46
Speaker
So I'm just looking at the one I've got behind me for the horror book that I just wrote.
00:29:50
Speaker
And actually, it's turned out nothing like that.
00:29:53
Speaker
So that's quite funny.
00:29:56
Speaker
I hope Melissa's listening to this.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah, I was from the ear shivering away.
00:30:01
Speaker
Pulling her hair out.
00:30:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:04
Speaker
Okay.
00:30:06
Speaker
Very cool.
00:30:06
Speaker
You've already put a book in the Desert Island Library.
00:30:10
Speaker
I have.
00:30:10
Speaker
I'm completely blanking on the name.
00:30:11
Speaker
I remember the plot of it.
00:30:13
Speaker
It was about locking secrets in a book or something?
00:30:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's called The Binding.
00:30:17
Speaker
I think that's probably still my answer.
00:30:19
Speaker
I think I would still take that.
00:30:20
Speaker
I was reading it in the end actually.
00:30:23
Speaker
I don't really go back to books.
00:30:26
Speaker
I'm not really a re-reader, I think.
00:30:28
Speaker
So the fact that I've re-read that one I think says a lot.
00:30:31
Speaker
So yeah, I still take The Binding.
00:30:33
Speaker
The binding it is.
00:30:34
Speaker
Amazing.
WriteMentor Offer
00:30:35
Speaker
Well, thanks so much for coming back on, Naomi.
00:30:37
Speaker
Always a pleasure chatting with you.
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah, thanks so much.
00:30:40
Speaker
And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Naomi is doing, you can follow her on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok at Naomi G. Writes.
00:30:50
Speaker
You can follow this podcast on Twitter at Right and Wrong UK or on Instagram and TikTok at Right and Wrong Podcast.
00:30:56
Speaker
And you can check out our new podcast with Melissa Welliver herself, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
00:31:02
Speaker
You can find that at the other tropes on socials.
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:07
Speaker
At the chosen tropes on socials.
00:31:09
Speaker
I'm new to this.
00:31:09
Speaker
I'm sorry.
00:31:10
Speaker
Come on, Jamie.
00:31:11
Speaker
I've not done that shout out before.
00:31:15
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:16
Speaker
Well, thanks so much for listening.
00:31:17
Speaker
Thanks, Naomi.
00:31:18
Speaker
And we'll see everyone on the next episode.
00:31:20
Speaker
Thank you.
00:31:23
Speaker
Thanks for hanging around to the end.
00:31:25
Speaker
Now, let me tell you about Write Mentors Hub.
00:31:27
Speaker
A subscription to Write Mentors Hub gives you access to an online community where children's writers at any stage of their writing and publishing journeys can interact, share advice, offer support, develop craft, and advance their careers.
00:31:38
Speaker
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00:31:46
Speaker
Every day is a writing day for hub members with an ever-growing range of initiatives like critique groups, workshops, pitching events, writing sprints, Q&As, and many, many more.
00:31:53
Speaker
The hub is constantly expanding, so go and check out the WriteMentor website for the full and up-to-date list of member-only benefits.
00:32:00
Speaker
You can get your first month completely free if you enter the coupon code RIGHTANDWRONG at the online checkout.
00:32:05
Speaker
That's W-R-I-T-E, the and symbol, W-R-O-N-G, at checkout for your first month free.
00:32:12
Speaker
So go join the Hub, Write Mentor's supportive community of storytellers, because writing can be lonely, but it doesn't need to be.