Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. Hello. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyperfixations fly. Today we are fixating on Ruby Frankie.
Speaker: Welcome to, I think, episode four of Ruby and Jodi.
Speaker: And now we're getting to a little bit more of Kevin. Yeah, this is the big one. I think we talked about just about all the other evidence that has been released in the last few weeks. So I put together all of my notes about all of that. And then this second interview was released. And we were like, this has to be its own thing. Whoa, what happened? Yeah, exactly. So I'm going to cite the sources really quick first.
Speaker: Um, again, it's very, very similar to the last episode, except for one additional one, um, law and crime network people magazine and hidden true crime. But between when we recorded episode three, um, of Ruby and Jody in episode four, the Mormon stories podcast that we've cited so many times through this whole series.
Speaker: They just released an episode also deep diving on the second interview. I didn't, full disclosure, I didn't take notes on it or anything, but I'm sure that there are things that will seep out. So I didn't want to like accidentally say something that maybe they had said, like it's my own thoughts. So I'll just say there might be some things from them in here. Yeah. And they're wonderful.
Speaker: All right. So Kevin's second interview. I can't even remember the date of it. I mean, it was a few days later. Yeah. I don't remember the date either, but it was a few days later after the arrest. Yeah. Things had settled down a bit. Ruby and Jodi are in jail. And I think the police had just called him in to get, they started by saying they just wanted more information kind of about the family.
Speaker: And boy did they get it. Yeah. Then it all came out. Yes. I was gonna say this is definitely I think the most insightful of all the new documentation evidence that came out. I think we get the most of any sort of motive or like the why this has happened.
Speaker: in this yet it also to me almost sounds crazier yeah once we got his input yeah yeah he said he wasn't crazy so yeah this is where i mean a lot of the things we were thinking and talking about i think kind of were confirmed but then there's a lot that was just insane it's just it's wild all right so let's jump in
Speaker: Um, so for Kevin's second police interview, uh, he, we only have audio, it's no video or anything like the other police interview with him, but it's long.
Speaker: I think it actually kind of be boring to just to have the video, but we'll start with that. The police tell Kevin up front that he's not a suspect in anything. They just called him in again to get a bit more insight and information about, I think they specifically said just Ruby and kind of the dynamics of the family. And then it led to a lot more information about Jodi as well.
Speaker: I am so interested in this first thing that Kevin brings up. He almost immediately asks about a notebook or a folder, like a leather folder, I think he says, of rubies called the pen papers. He jumped on that so quickly. It was almost bizarre. Like, I mean, it was a big jump. I mean, here's kids that didn't, you know, go into that design. He went right to the pen papers.
Speaker: And I don't even understand what they, it sounds like they're Ruby's detailed notes of the interactions or we'll get a little bit more into the time they spent together, but the alleged visions that were going on and prophecies and things like that. And it, the police don't have them at that time. I don't know now.
Speaker: But at the time they didn't have them. They had no idea what he was talking about. And he just, he said something like, if you get them, you'll understand so much more about what was going on. And I don't even understand how that would work, but no, not a religious mindset. Um, so he says it's hundreds of pages. He said something about, he didn't say who said it, but these quote pen papers,
Speaker: were not to be read until God decreed them to be read as scripture to the world. Which me sounds like, you know, the Mormon, the story of the founder of Mormonism and the golden plates that were found. It sounds like Jodi thinks she's another prophet of the Mormon church and has these, these notes are somehow going to be sacred and added into, I don't know, it'd be like if we added something to the Bible.
Speaker: Uh, yeah, I really think that's what she thinks. Yeah. Yeah. He said, um, it, Jodi would not want them found, but would not allow them to be destroyed. And he also says, um, which I wish I had time to deep dive into this even more. We talked a bit about her, but, uh, Kevin says it's how Pam. Baucher. Thank you. I'll never get it. It's how Pam is tied to everything.
Speaker: he says is in this folder of notes. I guess I still don't fully get it. I mean, I don't get it.
Speaker: Pam being tied in to the visions and the religious part. Okay, I understand that. Was she smart enough to stay out of there? I mean, you know, but that coming back to the abuse of the children. Yeah. I wonder if there's some sort of outline in those papers of how she
Speaker: I don't think she's being accused of taking part in any of the abuse, but of having more knowledge of it. And it seems like she was almost like Jodi's henchman. Yeah, I agree. But I do. I really want more information about Pam.
Speaker: I do too. I do too. I think she's probably got, at the very least there's like financial stuff she knows about connections and just Jodi overall. And I want to know what Pam has. I personally am wondering if Pam somehow has these papers and that's where they disappeared to. I wouldn't, I don't know how in the, like the timeframe of everything, but I do wonder if that's where they are.
Speaker: Maybe in the transition of the two middle daughters? That's kind of my thought. Somehow they got - Oh no, but they wouldn't have been, if they were all the way at Jodi's, I guess she's still hours away. But I guess we don't have the timeframe of - Yeah, I don't know. I guess they do think the one child
Speaker: was still at Jodi's house. The little boy did say my two sisters are here, and we just always assumed he was wrong, because he did say my two sisters. Yeah, I don't know. No, I know I want to see these papers, and I want to know more about Pam's involvement. And I honestly, if there was a trial, I wonder if she's just like the luckiest person in the world, because I think if there was a trial, she probably got some sort of deal to testify.
Speaker: And then since Ruby and Jodi both pleaded guilty, maybe that didn't have to happen or maybe, I don't know.
Speaker: Or she's a very smart person and knew how to keep herself out of the actual crimes. Yeah, I would just be also super curious. I don't know that Kevin is saying this person's name to the police and that person had two of the minor children's like why aren't the police looking into her more? And they do believe this is not off topic and but I have you heard like so chat.
Speaker: Chad, he's an adult son. He has done some podcasts. Yeah, he's been a bit more public since we first started. And he has, again, mentioned Pam being a more integral part than people know. Yeah, somehow she's managing to stay out of it, including the police not even investigating anything with her. Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. Kind of off topic. We can go back. Sorry. No, we both did it. All right. So the interview, after the pen papers thing, they go into how the Frankie family connected with Jodi and kind of the beginning of this whole friendship, weird codependent thing. Jodi and Ruby connected at the end of 2018 via, uh, Ruby's friend, Paige Hannah.
Speaker: Again, I didn't look into them as much, but they seem kind of like the Hannahs seem, I don't know, like Mormon poster children, like they're doing all the right things. Actually, since this came out, the page Hannah has done a couple, like YouTube videos from her perspective. Yeah. And they're very interesting. But you're right, they seem like these ideals.
Speaker: Stepford, Mormon, everything worked great. They're wealthy and they carry themselves well. The interesting thing, did you ever notice Kevin say,
Speaker: like Ruby wanted to be the popular one. Yeah. Do you remember that part? Or like she always wanted to be, her whole life had always been wanting to be part of the popular group. Yep. And most popular. Well, and so going along with that, the Hannah's Paige and her husband were on the cover of Jodi's book. So I can see how to, someone like Ruby is like, well, we're going to be best friends with that pop, like that person. And
Speaker: get to know this lady who put them on her book. That's so cool.
Speaker: And Paige was also, the Hannahs were also the first when Jodi went and stayed with them. I think it was six weeks, right? And then there was like weird things about Jodi hitting on the husband. Yeah, let's hop into that. Cause that's wild. So it was, so he hops around in his own timeline a little bit. In 2019,
Speaker: It looked like the Frankies took a trip to the UK with the Hannas. And this is where the Hannas kind of convinced Kevin what he said they convinced him, not the two of them, but him. I think Ruby was already
Speaker: interested. But Kevin was convinced to join Connections. And a couple months later, January 2020, he agreed to join for three months and he joined one of the men's groups. And I think they've even said the UK trip was almost written in retrospect with the sole purpose of pulling them into Connections.
Speaker: And I think it was already starting to like, they targeted them because of Ruby's following. So yeah, yeah. So before this, I think it was before the trip, Kevin and Ruby attended a conference. And he left feeling like this was the he called it man hating and just a group to tear down husbands.
Speaker: But people Kevin respected presented there. So he was confused and then the UK trip happened. And I think that convinced him. And I would say, um, when he talks about people who he respected, I would venture a guess that I don't even know what the Hannah, Mr. Hannah was. I forgot to write down. Definitely one of those people he's, he is referring to. Absolutely.
Speaker: So in this group, Kevin said he participated for three months. The men's group was focused on addictions to sex, porn, and drugs.
Speaker: He wanted to leave because he didn't feel like he had any of those addictions and he was confused about why he was there So in this time he said that he and Ruby had a quote vulnerable vulnerable conversation about how Kevin's quote lustful decisions impacted her Like he didn't get it. He was like, I don't know what you're talking about like
Speaker: And then she said that he was asking for sex too much and suggesting that she wear lingerie or something and that hurt her feelings and made her feel bad. And after she told him this, he truly felt like he had done something wrong to her and felt guilt. Yeah. And he does say he agreed to meet with Jodie Weekly and he did say that he felt like his marriage was getting better.
Speaker: with that. Ruby was being open and honest with him. They weren't having sex, but she was being open with him and showing kindness with just the Adam Steed of it all. Once they're in this place and his wife shows him the tiniest bit of kindness, he's like, okay, something's good.
Speaker: And then, yes. So then we got hop to, we're going to hop to the fall of 2020. Ruby is all in on connections, focusing on happy marriage, love versus lust, which sometimes seems like a recurring theme throughout the Mormon religion. Yeah. Okay. So they're having these conversations.
Speaker: Kevin's doing the group, Kevin's meeting with Jodi. No real clear indication of what Ruby's doing, but I assume the women's group and meeting with Jodi also. Kevin says they're fighting a lot less as well. And because of this, he starts speaking at the Connections conferences, saying this is working. Then we get to March, 2021. And Kevin said after a conference, they went out to dinner
Speaker: And I think the women had a table and the men had a table somehow, but they were all out to dinner. And Jodi spoke to the group of women saying that she was being tormented by shadow figures. A few months after that, the Hanas decide to let Jodi move in. So they basically pick her up from her home and bring her into their own home. And this I don't understand. Can we stop here for a second? Yeah.
Speaker: Nobody's ever really talked about why Jodie had to go live with first the Hannas and then ultimately the Frankie's jumping a little bit. I don't get that.
Speaker: I don't either. I don't either. She had that huge house. Like I don't, unless it was some sort of manipulation or she believes this, that she's being tormented and can't be alone. I don't know. I thought the same thing. Okay, so as we talk about it, like could she be bipolar or something along those lines and having manic episodes? Because there should be specific triggers for when it became bad enough to have to. Yeah. I mean, I obviously we don't know.
Speaker: we know we know about our own brains we can't self or we can't diagnose anybody but there if she believes these things are happening like there's obviously something going on.
Speaker: that she needs psychiatric care. Or she's an amazing actress. Right. And it's, you know, I don't know, honestly, that's one of the stories that one of the parts of the stories that I like really perplexes me and I feel like it never has been a question that's never been really answered. Yeah, because it seems very strange for an adult. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, be taken care of and
Speaker: And then the stories from the two parties. So the Hana's say one thing and the Jodi's say the Jodi's. The Jodi says another. Jodi said that she was held against her will for six weeks. Well, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Just gonna say that. Now the Hana's say they had to remove her from their home because she was expressing plans for ending her life. She was like stabbing herself with forks.
Speaker: And then the kicker was they claim that Jodi tried to seduce the husband. I'm just having a hard time seeing. I don't understand. My thought is if we want to get a little diabolical is in this, in this religion, maybe that's an easier, that's an easier pill to swallow, I guess, for why you would kick somebody out.
Speaker: Well, and they have a pretty low bar for like sex addiction, porn addiction. So maybe their level for trying to seduce is a little lower than what we do. Yeah. It's just a very weird, it's just so weird.
Speaker: And one more thing that I don't know if you remember, but, um, Kevin said, I think it was in this interview that they were trying to convince Jodi basically to switch from one cult to another. Yeah. And then nothing ever was really more said about. Yeah. I was just going to bring that up because I didn't, the same thing. I didn't know what that entirely meant. He used the phrase new cult lady.
Speaker: Like they introduced, Jodi was introduced to a new cult lady or something like that. That was the phrase he used. And I didn't, again, didn't understand that. It's something about merging these groups. Yeah. And then, um, yeah, I have never heard more about that. No, but can I just say like, what is about the Hannah's that they get? Like, is there a personality trait that gets.
Speaker: sucked into these cult like cultures. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're successful, family oriented, you know, entrepreneurs, like how did they get sucked into this? You know, from what just the extensive amount of research I've done into cults,
Speaker: and listen to podcasts and things like that. My kind of hypothesis is the people who don't think they'll ever be sucked into a cult are going to get sucked into a cult if they're not aware of what's happening. And it's like this slow deconstruction of what you think is right or normal.
Speaker: to get to the point that you're letting a crazy cult lady move into your home. But it's over years. Like we're going pretty quick through this, but the relationship with the Hannahs and Jodi predates Jodi and Ruby's. And it's 20, so it was 2018 that the Hannahs introduced Ruby to Jodi. And then it's 2021 that this is all going on.
Speaker: And if we, let me just pick like a little aside going back to the fact that I mean, one of our purposes behind this is to talk about our neural diversity. And I don't know about you, but you know, I being on the spectrum think I really am a person very much like believe in independence, not being part of groups, maybe too much. Like, you know, maybe it makes me unsocial.
Speaker: And to me, you know, when I hear about these things, I don't know. They just sound hellish to me. Yeah. I do know a lot of people like to be part of groups. And this part of me kind of wonders, like, is there just a difference? And I don't know. Is there like, I've always felt like there's one, like a binary difference and people wanting to be like, like to be accepted in part of groups. And then people who.
Speaker: like just don't, I don't know, that's always been something I pondered because I think because I have such strong feelings about it. Yeah, you know, how I do not want other people thinking for me, I do want not feel I need to be accepted by anyone. Yeah, maybe too much so. And I'm kind of like right in the gray area, where you said like, you're the binary of that, I listened to a podcast called Trust Me,
Speaker: And it's hosted by two women who grew up in different high control groups and escaped as adults. And they interview, they talk to an interview and cult survivors and experts and all different kinds of people associated with cults and how they escaped and all those things like that. But every episode at the end, after they like hang up with their guest, they talk to each other and say,
Speaker: they ask each other, would you have gotten would you have joined this group? And they're like brutally honest about it. Sometimes they're like, absolutely, that man would have gotten me a hook line and sinker I would have done there because they've just talked to the guests who like step by step explains how they got in or things like that. And it's always so interesting when like, yeah, these former cult members can be like, yep, he would have gotten me or yeah, I would have totally done what that woman asked.
Speaker: I feel like I would, that would be really interesting to listen to because I feel like, okay, this is, I'm sorry. Can I go off topic for a second? So once, this is gonna sound way off topic, but I was on a cruise ship and there was like a hypnotist and then they took volunteers to the audience, audience like to hypnotize them. And I was up there.
Speaker: And when he went around to people, he like picked some people to go and pick some people to stay. And then he kind of said in our ears, like, basically, I'm going to put you back and then you're going to sit down or whatever. And like at that point, I'm like, oh, my God, like,
Speaker: This is like, oh my god, I'm so uncomfortable. Why am I up here? There's nothing happening to me that is in the least bit hypnotizing. I'm just on the stage and I feel like an idiot. And I've always wondered, I've always wondered, first of all, how did he, that's where I think the binary thing comes from. Was there something about some people that he was like, no, it's time for you to get off the, you know.
Speaker: And I think I was like the weird person in the middle. Right. But then will the other people just faking and like being sucked into this because they wanted to be accepted? I've never I've always wondered about that because you're like on stage and then they're like act like a monkey. And I'm like, literally, I'm not going to act like a monkey. And so I just like did this weird thing where I just sort of sat down and didn't like didn't.
Speaker: you know, bring it up and be like, Oh my God, this is right. I just sort of, but I, at the same time, I'm like, I not acting like a monkey. I just can't do it. I don't know. I've always wondered, does that make sense? Like that's where I think the binary thing came from in me. Like, is there something that you like are, you know, I will say I do think there are, and I don't know what type or anything like that, but I do, I do think there are people who are more susceptible to things like that.
Speaker: And I would be curious what they have in common, I guess.
Speaker: I know it's a little off topic, but it does make me think about peer pressure getting sucked into a group because I'm like, I would never be because I hate groups. I was always the person who, even raising my kids, you know what? Just go sit at a table by yourself at lunch if you don't feel comfortable. That's fine.
Speaker: And my kids do and I'm always like that doesn't but I would so much rather be alone looking awkward than with people I don't want to be with. Yeah, same. But these a lot of times these people think they do want to be around all those people. So is it an exception? I think it partly is. Okay, but and maybe again, I don't mean going back to the whole autism thing.
Speaker: I feel very little need to be accepted by anyone. I don't know if that's autistic or what it is, but I've always kind of felt like I don't need to be accepted by anyone. And if I'm in a situation that is the least bit uncomfortable about being with someone, I'm out. I can't be there. I can't fake it through. Yeah. I will say, I don't think this is my neurodivergencies talking or anything. I think this is just my introvert.
Speaker: that I only want to be around people that I want to invest in. And the lore of some of these groups at first is that they're like self -help or self -improvement and that somebody investing in you and it's not necessarily, it seemingly isn't reciprocal. And the way my brain works with friendship is like, yes, I want someone to invest in me, but I want to invest in them.
Speaker: And it seems like the, you know, they're coming in being like, this is a health self -help group. There's nothing that I can give them. And so I would immediately be like, I don't want this. I'm good. There's like, I don't, I don't want what you're pouring into me that I can't then like do something. I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense. Okay. So then I am going to tell you, I don't know if this is an autism thing or my personality. I want those people like, I don't.
Speaker: No, like I don't need self -help. Like I got it. I figured it all out. I understand it. No, there's no need for anyone to try to self -help me. Well, I guess not. To help me. Like I'm above it. Yeah. Yeah. Which I've always been my whole life. Yeah. Which is sounds really cocky. No. And I say it, but it really is true. Like I've always been like, OK, everyone else may need help. I don't.
Speaker: whatever I do, but I'm not going to change. That's that too. I think that comes with just like finally having diagnosis of what we have and being like, oh, this is why I'm the way I am. And I'm fine with that. Or I thought you were going to say with being older and wiser. Yeah, that too. Sure. I am that too. Yeah. Well, older.
Speaker: All right, sorry. Let's get back to, let's get back to Kevin. Yeah. All right. So if I think we left off in 2021, we are in April. Jodi has been kicked out of the Hannah's home and has reached out now to Ruby for help.
Speaker: Kevin says Ruby wanted Jodi to like her the most. And this was an opportunity that Ruby was ready. Okay. And I think that's what I was talking about before when I said like, she wants to be the most popular, popular girl. Yep. She, Ruby jumped at the opportunity to invite Jodi to stay with them. Kevin said that Ruby was always jealous of the Hannah's relationship with Jodi.
Speaker: And now I assume the Hannahs have been bumped to the bottom of the pile for Jodi. And Ruby saw an opportunity to kind of take in and take over that top spot with her. Well, and as I recall, the Hannahs were kind of trying to get their own little like YouTube channel of some sorts going. And I guess that's one place Ruby was queen. I mean, then she had it. And that was a lot of reason
Speaker: They wanted her, you know, in the group. And I think that's why Paige Hannah was also, you know, the drawn to Ruby and not really to Ruby, but to her, you know, her following. Yeah, exactly. I think I said it a couple, on one of the episodes we did, but, um, the YouTubers, Jordan and McKay have said before that the there's, it's not for certain, but
Speaker: their suggestion that like these white, beautiful families who are Mormons are encouraged to get on YouTube. Yeah. And, you know, don't get me wrong, they are white and beautiful. I mean, they're just like, I feel like they're just like the, again, like maybe I'm using that stepford, like everything looks great and is smooth and everyone's happy and my kids are dressed well.
Speaker: And they are usually the rich ones as well. They're the ones who either had money and wealth before going on YouTube or gained wealth on YouTube. So then it's thing of like, we have all these beautiful kids. We are beautiful. Our home is beautiful. And they don't directly say it's because of the LDS church. But implication being, and if you join the LDS church, you will be too. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: It's just interesting and that the Hannahs perhaps were interested in or being scouted or something to start their own. And everyone's got motives here. Like there's motivations for all these parties and what they can get by their association with others. Yeah, exactly. So next May 2021.
Speaker: This is wild. This is the trip that Kevin and Ruby take to Jodie's house. So again, I don't understand why Jodie needs to move in with anybody. She has her own house, but we'll have to skip that because there's no explanation. Never happened. Kevin is shocked by the sides of Jodie's house and also wonders why she needs to move in with anybody. As he should be shocked because it's a beautiful palatial home from one person. Yeah, it's huge.
Speaker: At this point, he's doing whatever Ruby says. So he's like, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut about why this lady needs to move in. Why can't we move in with her? Because we just got all this space now. So during this visit, Jodi starts talking to them about her own personal struggles. But while this is going on, Kevin describes hearing like noises in the basements, heat basements, basement.
Speaker: He said he saw plates fly around the kitchen like supernatural things happening while they're talking and he is
Speaker: as like stone cold, just like honest and clear and concise and how he's explaining this to the officers. He's not like flipping out or anything, but he's like, this was actual paranormal things happening. And he was like, I'm a smart guy. And I do not know how to explain the footsteps that they could hear going up the wall.
Speaker: fate is flying around. I don't know. So what was this? Was it a set up? I just can't wrap my head about it again. What was this? And how in the world could a reasonably educated grown man be taken in by all of this?
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know what to make of the paranormal aspect of it because it happens again. And I don't think anyone was expecting that. This was like the big bombshell with this, I think, was all of these paranormal things that
Speaker: heaven says he experienced. It's not him saying that Ruby and Jodie experienced it. It's like he's saying directly, I saw this happen too. It's I don't know. I don't know. It's funny how these certain parts of this story, then you just Yeah, yeah, there's nothing like it then they end and there's no more information. And it's almost like I want somebody to dig in and go back to those. Yeah.
Speaker: And even in taking my own notes, I feel like there's no flow to anything, because it's like this happened. And that's that. And we have to move on to the next thing that was said in this tape, because there there's no other information about Jodie's ghost. I don't know. And can you imagine being what the you know, interrogator asking, talking to
Speaker: I'm not even sure what to ask you at this point. So at this point, Ruby thought she could help Jodi. Kevin wanted to get the bishop involved and Ruby was like, nah, I got it. So this part gets weird too. I didn't follow it completely, but in August of 2021, there's a gentleman, I think he was the bishop named Scott Galbraith.
Speaker: And he claims that he's at Jodi's casting out demons for four hours every night.
Speaker: And I think it was his suggestion to the Frankies that Jodie should move in with them. And Kevin said no. Because he wanted to stop having it cast out the demons with her every night. But so with the move, Kevin said no. And then Ruby insisted and guilt tripped. And again, he's in this place that he's being broken down. So he said yes. So Jodie moves in. I believe five of the kids are at home. I think Sherry's probably.
Speaker: School? Yeah, I think she's away. I think she's at college. Okay, so five kids are there. I think we've already used his name because he's an adult now, but I think Chad is still in the house.
Speaker: which will come to find is very inappropriate, but we'll get there. So again, like Jodi moves in and all the weird things start happening at their house. Like Kevin says he hears, this is where he hears walking on the walls. Okay, that when the walking on the wall started, he said the lights are going on and off with no explanation. And then he said, he just said, I saw stuff floating.
Speaker: What does that mean? Whoa, can we go back to the snuffling and talk about that a little bit more? Okay, so Kevin said he became an exorcist in his house to this lady. Wasn't he the resident? Yes, he said he's the resident and like chuggled. Yeah. And he's giving blessings to fight Jodie's possession.
Speaker: And how does this go? How does this happen? How does, like, what does the person who, like, voices, how do you know she needs to be excised? I don't know. Is that a word? Yes. And then what does he do when he goes up to her to make this stop? And we know from Mormon stories that this is real. Like,
Speaker: There are people in the LDS church who believe in demons, who believe in these things. That's what I mean when I say it's real. It's not that it's real. It's that this idea. It's true weavers. It's not an act. In the beliefs of this church, this is a thing that can happen. Demons can possess you. We find that with Ruby's diaries. She's talking like the children are actually possessed. And it is a tenant of LDS.
Speaker: that some people firmly still believe in. And Mormon Stories Podcast like had a lot of people on confirming that this is true. So if that's the case, I'm curious about how like, I don't know, the Catholic Church has this whole thing, this whole process of how you determine if somebody needs an exorcism. Wait, the Catholic Church? Yeah. Okay. And it's like it has to go through the Vatican and all these things.
Speaker: And I'm like, if this is, can just any old Joe Schmo be an exorcist? Can anybody be like, you have a demon, I'm getting it out of you. How do you know who the exorcists are? And honestly, I feel like Kevin kind of was like, I felt like he didn't even.
Speaker: oh yeah absolutely sarcastic about it but it's just i don't know it's if if this is so if this is such a big deal i guess in the lds faith i wonder if there is a procedure like there is in the catholic church do you know what i mean like i don't know even what word to use but policy and procedure book yeah or if it's just like if you see a demon you you use a cactus and get it out of them sorry that was really dark but at some point i think
Speaker: Kevin gets a little sick of this. Oh yeah. Yeah. We're going to start seeing that real quick. It's waking them up in the night. It's like having a baby in the night. Yep. That's what happens. Rudy starts checking on Jodi every four hours and then every two hours and then every hour and then just eventually start sleeping in the same bed as Jodi. So at this time, like this is when the dependency I think of
Speaker: Jodie and Ruby, and allegedly Pam as well, starts with the three of them. Oh, but Pam's not in bed. No, Pam's not sleeping over. Pam's not going to the sleepover. It's a queen -size bed. It's not a king, and it just wouldn't accommodate. Nope. Nope. And who gets to be in the middle? That sucks. Exactly. So Ruby started, Kevin says, having trances.
Speaker: and she's saying that she goes to heaven and she's seeing God and Jesus when she's in these trances. Pam starts to join the group. They're called interventions when they're locking themselves in a room for four to five hours a day that's called the interventions. And this is where the pen papers start getting
Speaker: written is right during these sessions yes during the interventions is when i think what's being written uh in these pen papers kevin said when they came out of the room they were like elated and like high on life they were like how could we change the world for god we need to
Speaker: get these things out to the world so we can share what we're learning. Save the world. Yeah. Kevin says during these interventions, he was left in charge of the children in the basement. Like life's just getting better and better for Kevin. Oh, I don't know if it was that they didn't want the kids to know. I mean, we will find out. That's actually my next note.
Speaker: is during one of the interventions, they didn't realize Chad was home. And had friends over, I think. Yep. So they were in the backyard during this, during an intervention and Jodi flipped out. Ruby and Pam actually had to convince her to stay in the home. This led to the first, Kevin calls it an in -home separation.
Speaker: And I think this could have possibly even been when Chad got sent away. I seem to remember that, or yeah, it was around this time. This is when he went to the wilderness camp. But also at this time, I think Jodi is also Chad's therapist.
Speaker: which is when I said it was inappropriate earlier like the therapist is not allowed to live with a patient. But so what do you think really set this like set it off so much in in Jodi? I wonder if um truly I wonder if Chad fought back
Speaker: and maybe was like disrespectful or just I wonder if there's even an issue like truly if he was like got sent away for looking at something inappropriate on his phone or like all of the things we talk about with the sexual shame.
Speaker: There might not have even been anything that he got busted for. It could have been made up after this to get him out of the, sent to this world. Right. Like I'm thinking like, was it him calling her out? I think that's where I guess. Yeah. He was probably 17. Like he's not going to be. And you know, yeah, this lady who's living with you and your mom are in a, uh, seance, I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah. And then you're in the backyard jumping on the trampoline. Yeah. Of your own home that you're allowed to be in. And you're like, not even like inside with his ear to the door or anything. He's like hanging out with his friends. Oh boy. So, um, following this things start to get even worse for Kevin. He learned he had very specific rules he had to follow. If he left the house, he needed to ask permission to return.
Speaker: So this means when he went to work, he had to ask to come back. It leads to Ruby requiring him to ask for permission to eat. Yeah, like didn't you have to ask permission to go to the kitchen? Yep. Yep. Which again, we'll see. I mean, that's what she did with the kids. If she started like, obviously like withholding food. I just think it's just a lot of what she did to Kevin at this time mirrors what she did to the kids.
Speaker: which makes me even more angry that in what we've heard from him, he's not more upset about what happened to his kids because he's gone through this.
Speaker: But when I hear him speak, it doesn't even sound like he thought this was nearly as abnormal as it was. I mean, he spoke out like, you know, it was not a great situation. But not to the extent that I would think it would have been a huge red flag. And this is not OK. Yeah. Also makes me think, I mean, Ruby was the main breadwinner in the film.
Speaker: I don't know, but the impression I get is in most Mormon families, the husband is the main breadwinner. And so I wonder if it changed the dynamic, if they had a little bit of a different dynamic between the two of them. Yeah. I just always wondered. Because it always, also just in some of their videos that you see the two of them together, I think she's trying very hard in those older videos to make it seem like
Speaker: they're united or almost that he's the head of the home. I feel like she plays that up a lot and really that's like any decision she's making. I really do think that that had a little bit to play in their relationship and how it got to this level. Yeah, to go off of that Ruby is
Speaker: basically dictating all terms of any interactions that Kevin is allowed to have in, you know, what happens is he becomes absolutely dependent on any kindness, like any drop of kindness that Ruby will give to him, which is what we saw with Adam as well with his now ex -wife. So January, 2022, Jodi leaves.
Speaker: Um, but Kevin says that Ruby, Pam and Jodi were determined to do work God had for them. Ruby's giving away everything at this time. She even wanted to, she was trying to sign eight passengers, the YouTube channel to Jodi directly without getting anything in return. And actually their YouTube manager.
Speaker: told Ruby that she was being scammed, that this woman is scamming her and lying to her and Ruby fired the YouTube manager and then threatened Kevin with another separation. So I don't think she ever, I mean, she didn't ever sign it over to her, but it ended. Right. And they just piggybacked off of her following. Yep. Kind of transitioned it. Yes.
Speaker: So after this, um, I think it's spring 2022 Ruby took a trip with Jody and Pam to Arizona. And then also to Mexico to allegedly buy prescription drugs for emergency kits, which the emergency kit thing makes sense to me. You know, we know that there's like the food stockpile, there's, you know, all of the things that of being prepared for end of days or whatever.
Speaker: I don't understand having to buy emergency prescription drugs for the kids. And I don't know what that means. Again, it sort of was another one of those things that was thrown out there. Seems really strange. And then was kind of dropped. Like you never really heard more about it. Yeah.
Speaker: And the only thing that really like I understood was the Arizona part of it because they, you know, we come to learn that they're looking at land in Arizona and maybe this was kind of the start of that, but then the Mexico trip is thrown in and I just don't know. Now I am going to say, and like, cause I'm also like very obsessed with the Chad and Lori day ball case.
Speaker: Nicki's not as into that, but there is a part of that case, too, where basically Lori Fallow -Daybell's brother went down to Mexico to buy drugs, too.
Speaker: Mormon population in Mexico. I think you're right, yes. Yeah, there's a case that I just heard of pretty recently. I think there's a new Max documentary about a group of, I think there were Mormons who were murdered in Mexico. Yeah, I remember it was about
Speaker: almost 10 years ago, and there was like a family. But I do think there's a very specific contingent of Mormon group down in Mexico. But in this case, it was like this whole going down there and buying drugs thing. Yeah, I don't understand. Maybe not drugs, prescription medication.
Speaker: And what are they and why? And then, but we know that, you know, the kids who were rescued had pretty serious wounds that weren't treated with prescription medications. They were treated with cayenne pepper and honey. And I don't, so I don't know. That didn't make sense to me. And the pharmacist in me really wants to know.
Speaker: What medications were they getting? Did they know what they were doing? Yeah, I know. Can I see these medical kits? Yeah. So after this trip in July, Ruby officially asks Kevin to leave the house. Kevin was still in the men's group, but he said he was knocked down to like the bottom rung. He said Jodi had the men kind of piling on him.
Speaker: in the group, like whatever she told the men in this group to do, they did. And it was, he called it psychological hell. He said that he needed to get Jodi's approval to get Ruby's approval for anything. And he was like, there's nothing he could do right. Adam laid this out as well. He was called manipulative, selfish, lying,
Speaker: said he was hiding things, and he said that he eventually started questioning his own sanity.
Speaker: He was not allowed to interact with anyone outside the group, right? Then the group was probably on. Yep, exactly. He's more and more isolated. He said that Jodi approved a list of the men he could speak to just over the phone. There's three men, and then eventually these three men were told by Jodi to stop talking with him altogether.
Speaker: He gets completely cut off and he said that he was quote, seeking enablement by going to like church leaders or families and just saying like, not even calling out anything going on, but just saying like, this is hard. Like he can't even vent to people or seek counsel from anybody else. He's basically trapped, isolated. But all that being said, this little part of me,
Speaker: He did not bind this separation or being independent of the family for a while. I just get that feeling. I do. I can just see him like he's going to the gym. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, yes, it was what was being dictated to him by Ruby, but he didn't fight it. He didn't seem to fight it enough in my opinion or from what's been said.
Speaker: And it's a time we can compare Adam Steed to him who I think was also in this spot of questioning his own sanity, but his kids were enough to keep, for him to keep questioning and to keep kind of pushing back. And that's why he got kind of so steamrolled. And it doesn't seem like Kevin was questioning anything with his children or not being allowed to see them.
Speaker: Whereas Adam, that was like the huge red flag for him. It was like, my kids are being taken in this. Like do whatever you want with our marriage, but you can't take the kids. Especially, I mean, well, I don't even know as I say, especially the older ones. I don't know, but that's not true. Especially any of them. He just seemed to give into that a little too easily for, again, he almost feels like it almost seems to me like he was enjoying a little break from
Speaker: Yeah. So by the last week of July, Jodi called Kevin to tell him that she doesn't understand why he isn't changing. She says that God told her that Kevin needed complete solitude with God, that he was out of the men's group, no more phone calls, no nothing. He needed to learn to go to God for support and that's it. And this is actually the last time he ever spoke to Jodi.
Speaker: was like this phone call being like, you have to be completely by yourself. Bye. Again, didn't seem like he questioned it all that much. Now he is still interacting with Ruby, but I think this is where he starts to wake up or open his eyes or I don't know for himself. Let's keep that in mind. No, I don't think for his children, but for himself, Ruby started asking him to sign over titles.
Speaker: to like everything that they owned, like one by one, just to take it out of his name and like sign things over to her. And I think the way she did it was kind of like, if I asked you to do something, do you trust me enough to just sign something with no questions? Yep. Yep. And she basically said, like, if you do, I'll trust you.
Speaker: Right. One specific one that in the interview, they kind of figure out what it was. But she said something just like that. Like, if I asked you to sign this, would you ask me why? And that there was a secret investment she was trying to figure out. In the interview, they figured out there was probably she was trying to sell the house. A neighbor came forward to the police and said that Ruby had mentioned
Speaker: wanting to rent the house out and that boxes and things had been packed. He very clearly says, you know, he never, she never came to him with like the title or the, not the title, the deed to the house or anything to sign over like that. But he said at that time he would have done whatever she asked. Like he would have absolutely done it.
Speaker: No, there's one thing, and I don't know, you might be about to bring it up, but during that interview, yes, he talked about how he never signed it, but yeah, I did not get the feeling because he refused to. It just never got to that. And that's when he said, I don't remember, no, if you recognize this, but in the interrogation, he was like, and if I had, that would really be bad. And I'm like, okay, I think these are really bad anyway.
Speaker: And the other thing is, up until this point of the interrogation, the children have almost not been discussed. Very odd how little he discussed the children. And the next part of the interview, the kids come up and they come up in a way that I was uncomfortable with.
Speaker: So he goes, you know, he's still talking about the isolation. He said he was in complete isolation for over a month. He believed he had abandoned everyone he loved, that he was selfish and evil and manipulative and all these things.
Speaker: And he said, well, he also said he confessed to things he didn't do to get back in good graces. Yep. Um, and that he was told if the scriptures aren't helping him through that, he should use, try these connections, workbooks. I want to see the word. So, but what he said in this part that I didn't, I don't know. I don't know. It made me feel weird is he, he feels.
Speaker: I don't remember, I don't know how he phrased it exactly, but he has this connection now with the children who were abused because they have this shared experience of like being told that they're evil and believing it. And I don't. It did make me feel weird too. And I'm not sure I can express why. Right. I understand he's trying to show the kids empathy.
Speaker: that he understands some of what they went through because he did as well. And maybe that's a connection they can have in like them dealing with it is like the most generous thing I can offer. But but I think the part he doesn't quite realize is but he was still a grown independent man, right could still go make his own free
Speaker: choices if he chose to. Whereas the children did not have that. He might be isolated in a house by himself but he can order Grubhub and watch TV. It just seemed like the comparison was not apples to apples on this and it almost diminished how he looked at what his children went through.
Speaker: And even yeah, in, in applying on every, honestly, on any level that it was a compared that was compared. So we left off July. After six months, Jodi said that Kevin can reach back out and rejoin the men's group. If he can prove that he's ready.
Speaker: This is when you get into more kind of weird stuff about like Jodi's visions. Like she had visions, Kevin said, and I don't know where he, I can't remember where maybe she told him directly, but her visions were like that she could walk on water with Jesus and she, yeah, the, oh, this, I love this. She had a vision that she had a pet lion in heaven named Charles that she could ride.
Speaker: Well, I was going to say, so these visions, it sounds to me like a lot of them are dream. That's what I was just going to say. And we all dream.
Speaker: And we just think it's this quirky thing that goes on in your brain, which it is. But if you start thinking for some reason, each dream you have is a vision, that could lead to very strange places. And then so how does some people even within the religion, LDS Church, how does some find their dreams or justify their dreams as visions? And the others who obviously have dreams,
Speaker: Like they just know that they're dreams. And I believe on Mormon stories that has come up too. Like when you have this idea that you're having visions and their dreams like everyone else has, well, how do you control that? I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know how you decide that you're divine enough that your dreams are visions. But some people learn. Yeah.
Speaker: He said that she also was having satanic visions and that at this time she would talk in different voices like she was possessed. And it was like creepy things like, she's ours, we're not letting go. And a bunch about being Satan's bride. Yeah. Again, after this, he brings up the pen papers. He's like, I want to see the pen papers. And the officers are kind of like, yeah, me too.
Speaker: Well, and we may have already spoken about this in the previous podcast, but when he seemed to overreact to Sherry going into the house and taking the computers, and originally I thought, oh, this has to do with money for sure, but I think it was. The computers with
Speaker: with the pen papers, like that he was, that that's what his concern was. That's how I took it after hearing all this. Yeah. That's what I thought too. Yeah. And I don't know why it would matter that Sherry had them if he wants them out. Yeah. Unless he doesn't actually, I don't know. I don't know. Oh, so Kevin shared some like, I don't know, more weird stuff. Um, like in the summer,
Speaker: Jodi went through a period that she would never show her face. She was always wearing hoodies, hiding her arms. I guess he said, he used the word mutilated. Her arms were cut up and she wasn't bathing. Which Chad later did confirm she did have an odor about her. There is so much happening with her that she needed the psychiatric help.
Speaker: So Ruby, at this time is telling Kevin that everything is so much better without him. The men's group and Jody are also telling him the same things.
Speaker: They told him that you are abandoning your family and you'd change if you wanted to actually be with them. Like what has to change? How can you prove? Yeah. He said that there's never like an actual solution or like actual steps. He would ask like, okay, what needs to change? And the answer would be like, well, you have to go to God. So we're about wrapped up with this part, but he did make sure to add that Jodi believes that she is actually God's mouthpiece.
Speaker: He said, I think he used the phrase arbiter of truth and forgiveness. So that's kind of the weird stuff, but there's like a pretty like firm switch at this point in the interior, not interrogation. Well, yes, the interrogation interview. Maybe I shouldn't have been using the word interrogation. Yeah, this fell as more like an interview. I don't know. So there.
Speaker: was there's a pretty firm switch, like I said. And I think, I don't think we mentioned that. I think Kevin's got his attorney with him for this interview. So the attorney actually kind of pipes in and says that in the house, there was a bag somewhere that had $85 ,000 in cash. And that bag is in Ruby's lawyer's possession.
Speaker: It seems like Ruby drained everybody's bank accounts, the kids. Which Chad later did verify. Yeah. And Kevin's accounts. The police say like, there's not a lot they can do about that because they were still married and like technically it is their money and Ruby can have it. He would have to go through like a civil action. It wouldn't be anything the police could do.
Speaker: and basically says like, get Ruby's lawyers not giving up that cash. Not going to keep up with the pay. There's that. I think you're, I think that's probably the money in the house that he was confirmed about also. Like I do think that was probably there in addition to these pen papers. And that came up in the jail house call too. Yeah.
Speaker: So the last thing that they really get into is they switch back to talking about Jodi and her work with Chad. Kevin confirmed that Chad was in therapy with Jodi while she was living in their house. And then they said something like, and this was funny to me too, but they, not funny, but they said like, so Chad was paying for his own therapy while his therapist was living there. And Kevin was like, no, no, no, he didn't start paying for it till he moved out.
Speaker: While he was still under the age, I mean, he was still not an adult. This was before he turned 18. Yeah, he was 17. She was charging, it was like $900 a month for therapy. Kevin said it was the majority of his paycheck and it was more than his rent. I don't know where he was living, but it was more than his rent. And he was working as a lifeguard.
Speaker: I really do believe I also read that his sister, I guess the one, I think there's a sister who's of driving age, age 16, worked at the same rec center? Yeah, yeah, it was something like that. I will also say that one of the things that I was most shocked by, well, the plates lying, beyond the plates lying,
Speaker: was that Chad did say that even after Ruby was arrested and everything came out, he was still committed to Jodie's teachings and for weeks after the arrest to show how deep that, and he said,
Speaker: He was, he was convinced. He bought into the car, not bought into it. I mean, I'd say brainwashed brainwashed. That's a great way to say it. Yeah. Like this poor kid, but I do think it's different when you're raised in it. And I don't think he was raised in it for long. I think that's why Sherry seems to have never bought into it because she wasn't in the house for a lot of it. Right. Right.
Speaker: Um, and the youngest two, I imagine are going to have a lot of work to do to deconstruct this. Which brings us all back to Kevin and his motives. Yeah. And his, uh, he has since opened a lawsuit against Jodi for obviously for, for money, basically that she'd go to, uh, rehabilitation and therapy for the children.
Speaker: Yeah. But would be under his control, of course. Right. If he, I shouldn't say if he gets custody back of the kids. Right. Which again leads to Kevin's motives.
Speaker: That all being said, um, in listening to Mormon stories, everyone attests that Kevin's a good guy. I think, um, the host says, you know, I have friends who are friends with him and, and they, they think he's a good, he's a good guy. I mean, honestly, John, the, um, and John, I mean, he, he's a, I mean, I, I have faith. He seems very genuine in that.
Speaker: And I believe he even said that his wife who partakes in the show too, was like, even said, you're not going to pile on Kevin, right? So there's these, these questionable things he's done, but at the same time, many people think he's a very genuine, good person. Yeah. I would be very curious to hear him do some sort of
Speaker: interview, not like police interview, but I don't think he would, but go on Mormon stories. Like do you have a discussion like that? Because also we are a podcast that talks about neurodiversity and how one would behave in a police interrogation. Like I think I know how I would behave, not even an interrogation in an interview, that
Speaker: might not seem, quote, normal. Or there are certain things not being asked of him directly. So he's not discussing it with the police. I don't know. I don't know. I do think, I think kind of what we've been saying the whole time, I think he is a victim in this, but I think he could have also done more and he could have stepped up more because there's so many
Speaker: ways that his story and Adam Steed's story match. But it's when Adam is saying, like, I saw these things being set up to happen to my children, and my children were being taken, that Kevin was just like, take the children. Yeah, that's just the part that I think none of us can quite wrap our heads around. How he would agree to not speaking to his children and just accept that.
Speaker: Yeah. That being said, I do not, I mean, a lot of people have said that, you know, he should be held responsible or, you know, he should be arrested. And I truly don't, I mean, I don't think I don't have a ton of respect for the fact that he did not, um, intervene in his, in his kid's lives more, but I don't think he asked, as like with Pam Batcher, I don't think that they broke a law.
Speaker: um, or were direct participants, maybe witnesses kind of stuck their head in the sand a little bit or looked the other way. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's hard to, it's hard to understand. Yeah. My, my hope, and I don't hope this to be mean or anything, but my, my hope is Kevin can and is looking back on decisions over these years and saying, this is
Speaker: Like in this instance, I should have done this in this moment. I, or because of this history, I have shown my children, my life's work is to undo those choices I made that didn't lead to this, but could have contributed. I still think even at this point in the interview, when I was wrapping up, there was still a surprisingly little discussion of the kid.
Speaker: Yeah, which struck me as very odd. I would like to have seen him interviewed, you know, like Chad said, he was brainwashed. He was, he really believed in this all within the next couple of weeks after the arrest. And I do believe that this interview, it was less than a, you know, it was a matter of days. I'd like to see it happen again. I'd like to hear what he has to say now being farther removed. Yeah. From the, yeah. I want like.
Speaker: a sit down interview with someone that's not police, that's not so close to everything happening and coming out. I want to know what he has to say now. Looking back, analyzing the situation. And I think that would determine a lot of how we see him. I think there's a lot to be learned from him. I mean, learned from understanding.
Speaker: Yeah. And I mean, that's what Adam Steak did. And I don't think we would hear his story and think he was more like Kevin, but I wonder how much of like actually hearing the words when that interview was able to be on the internet, hearing him tell his story. And then Kevin's story is really being told.
Speaker: Like if that would make a difference as well. And outside of a police interview, I think matters also. But if we compare, you know, this interview to the first interview, what he is being told, like his kids are hospitalized and like he's told some of the terrible things and he's, he's, I don't know. I hate to judge somebody how on their reaction when something traumatic is going on, but
Speaker: Good point. Everyone does react differently. But I, I, I do agree with you. Like even in that moment, he's he, in that first interview, he's not asking a lot about his children. And so I don't know. I think I would love to hear from him now. Agreed. So is this it? Are we wrapped up on?
Speaker: I think Ruby until something else gets ready. Yeah. I was going to say, I think we're wrapped up on them for now, but they've been, you know, they're in prison. They've been, uh, sentenced. It's, uh, which is also interesting, the sentencing, um, in Utah is it's like, I want to say like six years or something like that.
Speaker: I think a minimum of four, maximum of 30 because that's the, I think they would get 60, but because of, yeah, Utah law. But it's, but it's the Utah parole board that determines the length. Yeah. So that's the interesting thing. Yeah, something like that. So it's like, it was something like they could get one year for each count or
Speaker: like 10 years for each count or something like that. So I think that's interesting. And something tells me that it's going to be on the lower side. We'll have to wait and see. Yeah. On that note, we will say goodbye. Thanks for joining us. We can't wait to get into our next topic. Yeah, we're going to let this fixation go for now. Yeah, well, maybe you will.
Speaker: I'll just keep it quiet. Exactly. All right. Talk to you next time. Bye guys.
