Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I am Nikki and I have ADHD. Joy is autistic and we are letting our hyperfixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Kennedy curse.
Speaker: Welcome back everyone. Hello. We are moving on to a new Kennedy finally.
Speaker: Nikki, I'm having a hard time getting into this Kennedy though. That's all right. We'll talk through and we'll see where it takes you. I think I over JFK'd Yeah. I do feel like burned out on JFK.
Speaker: And then I'm like, oh Bobby's kind of boring. Yeah. He was the most vanilla. So anyways, I hopefully, I mean, I guess the good news is I think we'll get through this part little lot faster because it does.
Speaker: JFK did take us a lot longer than we expected. Yeah. And I think Ethel Kennedy is one of the most fascinating Kennedys. And she is a married into the family Kennedy.
Speaker: So we have to talk about Bobby to talk about Ethel. Let's get through boring Bobby first. Well, as always, the sources are in the show notes. So let's get into it. All right. so Bobby Kennedy was the seventh of nine Kennedy children, right? He was considered the runt of the family. it was largely ignored in favor of his older brothers. In that family, there's such a hierarchy, especially among
Speaker: the boys yeah in birth order it's kind of amazing because i don't think there was with the girls it was just like whoever joe liked the best yeah yeah of his daughters but the boys who's 100 like joe jr died his favorite became jack jack died his favorite becomes bop and then we'll get to ted who he's just like never his favorite even when he's the last one standing i mean it Also, when you, i like, I was thinking in order of age, but also, yeah, I guess the death thing, that's really sad. Yeah, right? All right, but but but but back to Bobby. See, I'm already trying to get off level of jigs.
Speaker: So he felt overlooked as a child. He was kind of more of the academic deic one. he ended up attending Milton Academy for high school, which was a, it's kind of a,
Speaker: well-known private school. He served in the Navy. Then he graduated from Harvard in 1948 and then went on to earn a law degree from the University of Virginia.
Speaker: Quick question. I just, I wonder. So he went to Harvard. do you think he was smart enough to get into Harvard? Or do you think like money thing, influence thing?
Speaker: I don't to know if any Kennedy men were smart enough to get into Harvard. I will say I'm going to give him it um maybe if there was one, it would be him. I don't know. Yeah. No. So I do think all of the Kennedy and I'm just talking like the four brothers right now. I do think they were all smart.
Speaker: I do think they were all gifted in certain ways. I think it's highly unlikely that everybody went to Ivy League without having the Kennedy name and money.
Speaker: yeah I guess I feel the same way too, but I was just kind of curious to see how you felt about it. All right. Should we talk a little bit about Ethel? Yes. I'd love to hear a little bit about Ethel. All right.
Speaker: So Ethel and her family were from Greenwich, Connecticut. Yeah. She went to college in 1945 at Manhattanville College with her future sister-in-law, Jean Kennedy.
Speaker: Ethel and Bobbie met on a ski trip in December 1945. Bobbie first dated Ethel's older sister, Patricia. but began dating Ethel when that relationship ended. Patricia, it is said, thought Bobby was too immature for her.
Speaker: The couple married in 1950 and would go on to have 11 children. So Patricia was considered the more beautiful, more mature. Ethel fought to be noticed and was more like playful, joking.
Speaker: Kind of, I got like kind of annoying. but But she was really determined to win Bobby over be, she really wanted to be part of the Kennedy clan.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. that it That is a theme we'll see carry on with a lot of the spouses, both male and female. Is that? Yeah. It was a it was a goal of theirs of sorts, not to say they didn't love their.
Speaker: Right. Right. Yeah. Cause I do actually think um besides Eunice and, and Sarge who we'll get to also, I think later, Ethel and Bobby were the most in love.
Speaker: Oh my gosh. I can't wait to get into Sarge. I'm really into Sarge, by the way. I am obsessed with Sarge. Anyways, anyways, back to, back to Bobby and Ethel.
Speaker: If you'll remember when we did, when we went through JFK, I said, we're talking about the curse. So we're structuring it with the bad things that happened to the family. And so while I know there's a lot more to the lives of Ethel and Bobby, like that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to kind of talk about the bad things because we are obsessed with the Kennedy curse. So just to like a caveat to that.
Speaker: Although I also get off topic a little bit sometimes. get a so Oh, sure. Yeah. Obviously. So Ethel's parents and brother come into play here, right? So Ethel's parents, her father's name was George. He was a Protestant of mixed Dutch ancestry. Oh. I'm sorry. And her mother, Anne, Brannock Skakel, was also a devout Catholic.
Speaker: um The children were raised Catholic. And at one point, Ethel considered becoming a nun. Yeah. George was a self-made man. So he started a railroad as a railroad shipping clerk, and he eventually created a company called the Great Lakes Coal and Coke Company.
Speaker: um It went on to become one of the largest privately held companies in America. Side note, I had never heard of Coke before in this sense. Heard it in other senses, right? Yeah. um But ah I did look it up. So cool so Coke is like the byproduct um of like the burning of coal, which is like even...
Speaker: kind of worse, but it burns, actually burns at a higher temp. So i think worse for the environment, but still puts out some energy. And so he kind of and capitalized on basically utilizing this by-product.
Speaker: Okay. So I mean, probably not environmentalist, but made a lot of money. And also probably didn't entirely know all of that at that time the world, maybe. like but Probably did. Fair enough. Okay, so Bobby and Ethel met on a ski trip in Quebec, Canada in 1945. One of my favorite places, by the way. Yes, I was going to say that. they were Monterey. Monterey.
Speaker: I can't say it. Monterey. Monterey. Monterey. I've been there once. Oh. Okay, well, so much for our French accent. ah Leave that in. so they're They were introduced through Bobby's sister, Jean, and she was Ethel's roommate at that Manhattanville college.
Speaker: So when they met, Bobby was actually dating Ethel's older sister already, and she was like definitely seen as the more beautiful these rich ah rich aristocratic circles kind of had their... They're a little unbred, huh? For sure. 100%. Ethel was more...
Speaker: of the like young, obnoxious, loud little sister. Didn't seem overly appealing, I'm going to say but but she was determined to win Bobby over. And so she made sure to kind of accompany Jean on consequent like trips.
Speaker: And so, yeah, with Jean and, of course, the Kennedy family. I mean, I'm sure their vacations were very nice, too, so don't get me wrong. Eventually, Jean did break up with Bobby, claiming he was too immature. Yes.
Speaker: And Ethel's persistence paid off. Her and Bobby began spending a little bit more time together. They bonded over their love of sports, and they began dating. mean, eventually got married in 1950. Do you think she was really into sports, or you think she was just like doing one of those things where you...
Speaker: find a commonality so somebody attention you. With Ethel, I think she was really into sports. We'll get into it Like, she was so competitive with, like, yeah, yeah. did yeah so Like, I think she was into it. And I think she was, like, I think she was the most, like, just who she is.
Speaker: And who she is just happened to fit in with the Kennedy family, you know? Yeah, no, I think so. And actually it was their shared competitiveness that brought them together. Also, good way to start flirting, like the whole competitiveness thing. So, ah but their 18 marriage, 18 year marriage, it wasn't all bliss. And it was kind of ah like a mix of bliss.
Speaker: public devotion and personal strain anvil and a lot of love but they did have a shared devotion to the catholic religion strong and they also were very both devoted to continuing the political kennedy dynasty um they purchased their 13 bedroom georgian style mansion named hickory hill And did you know they purchased it from Jackie and Jack?
Speaker: Yes, I did read that somewhere. it would it okay That was like in a wrinkle in my brain when you said that. Yeah, like I didn't. i don't know why that surprised me. Well, that's the so Kennedy compound, right? that's True, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: um So they they purchased that after the 1956 Democratic Convention. So I guess Bobby's feeling pretty confident in going to D.C. Because it was's it's located in McLean, Virginia, which is fairly close to Washington, D.C. Also where a lot of CIA agents live. But thank goodness they got that 13-bedroom house because they quickly filled it with those 11 kids. So this is why this is where my how my brain works. I never had to share a room with a sibling because I just have one sibling.
Speaker: And I think it's crazy that 11 siblings, none of them probably had to share room. No. Because they 11 rooms, one probably primary bedroom, and then they still had a guest room. Yeah. or Bobby's room when they had a fight.
Speaker: Exactly. What do you mean bathrooms they had? Oh, yeah. Anyways, the house was beautiful. It was kind of definitely one of those white Georgian houses. ah had been built in the 1800s.
Speaker: Previously, like Supreme Court justice lived there. That's who Jack and Jackie bought it from. Again, off tangent, no maybe no ah curse um associated with this house, but it did look like it could be haunted. if he's Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker: But in a beautiful way. Yeah, maybe. Only hot ghosts.
Speaker: Okay. So now get back to your cursing stuff. um So Ethel lost a lot of her, some of her family in plane crashes. We are back to the theme of plane crashes and the Kennedy family. On October 3rd, 1955, Ethel's parents, George and Anne, died in a plane crash in Oklahoma. The plane ran out of fuel, which resulted in an in-flight explosion. I i don't know. That seems weird. It seems like the opposite of what would happen. i don't know. feels like the gas was gone. i feel, i I don't know, like something with fumes maybe. I don't know. I imagine everyone was smoking.
Speaker: i don't know. It's my very scientific take. Didn't think of it that way. All right. So about 11, just shy of 11 years later, Ethel's brother, George Jr., also died in a plane crash on September 1966 in Idaho.
Speaker: I don't necessarily, generally speaking, believe in curses, but the whole plane crash thing. It's wild. It is wild. Okay. Yeah. So in this incident, the inexperienced pilot attempted to land at a small ranch airstrip, but changed his mind, resulting in the plane stalling in midair.
Speaker: So, and then what's crazy is George's widow, Patricia, Who, like, I know we got all these same names. It's a different Patricia. Patricia, the first Patricia was a sister. This is a different Patricia. Oh, okay.
Speaker: Yeah. So this Patricia, she died less than a less than a year later after choking on food at a dinner party. i mean, it's sad to say, but that's kind of boring in comparison.
Speaker: Yes. Still very severe. Same ultimate outcome. Yes, but gosh, I'd be a little like, I'd be in heaven being like, i choked.
Speaker: All right, Bobby, like every Kennedy man had affairs for sure. But despite this, he's still widely regarded as the best Kennedy husband.
Speaker: Minimal affairs compared to the others. The bars in hell. Right. So Ethel, for her part, knew the men of the family that she married into. And she kind of knew what she was getting into when she married Bobby. i think she, like all of the wives, were hopeful, but accepted what it was.
Speaker: They all believed they could change their man. Yes. So he had very, very well-known possible rumored affair partners, including Kim Novak, Lee Remick, and Claudine LaGette. And there were to this day, still rumors that Jackie and Bobby actually had an affair, that they were at least very close while Jack was alive, um that they were sleeping together after Jack's murder, and
Speaker: Like they'd started an official affair after Jack died up until Bobby's death. don't know what I think about that. I don't think so. I think they were very close.
Speaker: And it's easy to just be like, yeah, they're probably having an affair. think he was a little nerdy for ah Jackie. I think so too. But I think they really leaned on each other. Oh, yeah, yeah. no Not to say they weren't super close you know yeah emotionally, but...
Speaker: I think, yeah, I don't think there's anything there. But let's talk about the most well-known affair. We talked extensively about Marilyn Monroe in the JFK series within a series. So we're not going to talk too much about Marilyn, but...
Speaker: We know that there was something with Marilyn Monroe and Bobby, whether it was friendship, whether it was a full affair, it was short and very intense. Well, I have to talk a little bit more about it.
Speaker: Okay, got it. Yeah, you know I can't resist. Okay, so um so although, a little conspiracy going here, I can't. Although Marilyn's death was ruled a suicide, for years conspiracies have been surrounding it.
Speaker: and but Yeah, I just can't. I got i gotta, gotta, we gotta to delve a little bit. Yeah. A little bit. I won't go crazy. So a week before her death, she took a trip to a place called Cal Neva Lodge and Casino. And she checked into a regular cabin, which is cabin three, for two nights.
Speaker: Have you ever heard of Cal Neva Lodge? It sounds familiar-ish, but I don't know why. I don't know why I never did, because I am very... obsessed with hotels but apparently this like so this hotel is like on the border of california and nevada okay and nevada obviously gambling's legal and california not so like you can swim in the pool over the state line oh my gosh go to the casino that's so cool <unk>s right cool
Speaker: But there's more. ah So her room, ah you know, her cabin three it was actually like a rustic link side cottage, which I'm not quite sure I'm seeing Marilyn in except that it had a heart shaped bed and access to like a network of underground tunnels. Oh, and there were through there were these tunnels throughout the whole lodge. And they were to be used by celebrities, political figures, and of course, mobsters, so that they could move between the cabins and the casino without being seen by the public. Oh, yes. So um so she checked out on July 29th, 1962, which was just six days before she died.
Speaker: All right. So you're never going to guess, but this lodge was owned by Frank Sinatra. Why is that both very surprising and the least surprising thing? It's the underground tunnels that makes it not surprising. I mean, it's perfect, right? Plus, I mean, when you think about, yeah, political figures, celebrities, and mobsters, they were like all his people.
Speaker: So his his cabin was I don't know if he had a heart-shaped bed or not. But so there was a rumor that actually Frank Sinatra invited her personally the weekend before the weekend she came up.
Speaker: Yeah. um She was very emotionally distressed at that time because that's when things are getting bad. So career pressures and like and the fallout from the affairs with the Kennedy brothers. So some believe she was invited there that weekend to have like a so an intervention of sorts, not from like drugs or alcohol, but for her friends to break it to her that not only did she have to stop seeing Jack, but also Bobby. And she did not take that news well.
Speaker: So... The night of Marilyn's death, Bobby was officially documented in the location of the Bates Ranch, which was near San Francisco. Okay. And he was with his family, like some of the kids in Athol. But conspiracy theorists and 2022 program.
Speaker: have have suggested that he took a like private plane or helicopter um that day and actually went to Brentwood, where Marilyn and lived, that afternoon, evening. and It was claimed that he was there to break off their affair and demand that she... hand over her red diary containing sensitive political secrets, which is sort of crazy. I don't, I don't, I mean, I get keeping a diary is great, but it seems like take keeping a diary never leads to good things, but yeah. Right.
Speaker: um and actually in 1983 BBC interview her housekeeper Eunice Murray who was she was actually really close to changed her original account of what happened that day and did say Bobby was there that afternoon of August 4th when she um passed away and that it resulted in um a violent and emotional argument I mean it doesn't necessarily mean anything u but I kind of believe that part I mean don't I kind of do too. Yeah.
Speaker: There was just, I just, this thing I heard on the side that I had to say. So they, thought i there was a story intertwined with this about her going, like how Marilyn went to bed at eight. Um, but the boat crazy thing was that they didn't, you know, they found her pills next to her bed. She took notoriously took a lot of sleeping medications and, um, that's what ultimately what she overdosed on, but that there was no glass of water in the room. And apparently her bathroom like pipes weren't working. So it was this whole thing about like this being a clue that she couldn't have taken her pills because there was no water to swallow them down with.
Speaker: And so they were forced on her. You know, ah that seemed like a stretch. to say someone who takes a lot of pills is probably pretty good at taking the pills. so I'm thinking so. a few you know But or if you're really trying to.
Speaker: do yourself in. I think you'd mean you could even chew. I don't know. But that they don't taste. So anyways, yeah, I think she was really upset. I think he was there. Totally my theory on this. But I do think she probably did take her own life. Yeah, I do too. I do think she probably knew some secrets, but just in what like, you know, she'd have chats with bobby and jack about things and i don't i don't think what she knew was enough to them to kill her now maybe the fbi did come in or and maybe the house i think the house may have been bugged in this diary probably yeah yeah i fully i don't think that they but well and we'll find later that bobby did authorize bugging of people's homes and um i fully think that her phone was bugged yeah but whose wasn't back then
Speaker: Right. So as you said, before Marilyn's death, Bobby told her to leave both him and Jack alone, which is probably fair. Now let me take that back. I won't say fair. Yeah. I don't think fair. I think, um, the right thing to do probably the right thing to do in like a really horrible way is my guess. Yeah. I feel like she was probably very emotionally volatile anyways. Yeah. And that had to just be crushing. Yeah.
Speaker: And we know how Kennedy men spoke with women who they thought were disposable. Yeah. You don't think they were really thoughtful? I don't think so. Curing in their approach. Probably not.
Speaker: All right. So that's as far as I'll get into conspiracies on that. I understand. well pretty Well, let's go on to Bobby and Castro then. We're done with affairs. Bobby and Castro did not have an affair. That we know of. Who knows? That we know of. Exactly. Because Bobby was obsessed with Cuba and Fidel Castro.
Speaker: On November 30th, 1961, at Bobby's suggestion, Jack authorized Operation Mongoose. I can't remember if we talked about this in the Jack stuff. I know we talked about Cuba and things. I can't remember this part because ADHD. So we're going to talk a little bit about it now.
Speaker: ah You want me talk about Sure. Because it's kind of my yeah my thing. Do it. So Operation operation operation Mongoose um had to do with setting up like training camps within the U.S., s um and this was by the cia to train some cuban exiles okay so we talked to tiny no no i'm gonna i'm just interrupting for a minute you're gonna keep going because i still don't i'm okay but i remember the cuban exiles of it all and that they were trained by cia so this was the operation that did it yeah the word mongoose i kind of throws me off on that one don't i'm not sure I want to be the person who names operations. I don't know. Like CIA office. I don't know. It doesn't seem to go. But anyway, so the goal of this whole operation was ultimately to remove Castro and to basically overthrow the government there. The plan was the regime would be forced to divert national resources to protect its citizens.
Speaker: And this would be a way to discredit Castro to the public as an inept leader. Yeah, because his own people were ah again like trained by the enemy against him as well. Yeah, like classic CIA, right? Yeah, right. So ultimately, the plan was to lead the Cuban people to overthrow Castro without anyone knowing that the U.S. s was involved.
Speaker: No, this is going to go wrong. So it was all planned by the CIA, no military. But the Kennedy brothers were not totally convinced of this plan. i won't get too far into it, but a lot of it was planned under Eisenhower. Then Kennedy became- They kind of inherited it. Yeah, and they kind of weren't that into it. So they didn't fully commit to the- plan. that kind of moved forward but didn't fully commit. So ultimately what they didn't send in air support um which resulted in the whole like this is Bay of Pigs disaster and the lives of hundreds of Cuban exiles um that were sent in to stir the unrest ended up
Speaker: being arrested and dying. So it was really sad. They felt like they were left high and dry and and it caused a lot of resentment. And a lot of the blame went to the Kennedy brothers. It was a huge embarrassment early in Jack's presidency. Yeah. Ultimately led to the Cuban Missile Crisis, which I won't.
Speaker: We talked about it. I find it interesting, but most people don't. So and We talked about that. But this operation like was officially disbanded after the Cuban Missile Crisis because they were like, this isn't working.
Speaker: But we'll try that plan again throughout history and we'll see how it goes. Yeah. I am this is a side tangent. joe Everyone should also know um it is 8.30 at night my time, and I took my ADHD meds at 8.30 a.m., m so we're past the 12-hour mark that they work. So I'm like all over the place.
Speaker: Our podcast should be called Side Tangent. Right. I am listening to a podcast series about Vietnam, and gosh, we just repeat patterns, don't we?
Speaker: we just... Just try keep trying the same thing. Yeah. Speaking of trying the same thing, let's talk about wiretapping. So Bobby wasn't ah too shy about wiretapping people. Now, to be fair, head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover,
Speaker: very much pressured Bobby to wiretap some large characters in history, let's say. So i already said I fully believe Marilyn Monroe's phone was tapped, but Bobby was authorized by Jack to wiretap Martin Luther King Jr. stemming from allegations that two of his aides were communists.
Speaker: I believe the allegation probably came directly from J. Edgar Hoover, who just wanted to wiretap Martin Luther King Jr. Hoover loved to wiretap even more than the Kennedys.
Speaker: I know, right? they' Big wiretappers. So we know that the FBI had a very public vendetta against King, but no one knew the lengths that the government went to actually try to stop him.
Speaker: ah Basically destroying Martin Luther King Jr., they believed would end the civil rights movement. And J. Edgar Hoover was very much not into the civil rights movement. On January 5th, 1964, the FBI placed additional listening advices that had not been authorized by Jack.
Speaker: So basically, once Bobby gave permission for a single wiretap, the FBI was like, we're going to wiretap everything around Martin Luther King Jr. We're going to tap his wires.
Speaker: On November 21st, 1964, the FBI actually sent a blackmail letter to Martin Luther King Jr. and his wife that threatened to release tape recordings that documented King having extramarital affairs.
Speaker: And the letter went so far as to suggesting that Martin Luther King Jr. should take his own life. Wow. That's dark. Yeah. And I've considered it and I go back and forth.
Speaker: It's one of the things that like one of the topics I'm kind of afraid to do is Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination. Yeah. that's Because I don't think the person who did it did it. I think it was FBI.
Speaker: No, I haven't even started looking into that. So I'm not I'm right now I'm researching something completely different, but ah my brain always goes back to that. So that might be added to our list.
Speaker: So basically, well, really quick, like I talk about the Martin Luther King Jr. thing. It's just another one of those times that like, just like Jack, after Bobby is assassinated, he is lifted up as this like perfect figure. He's like the paradigm of just and good and all those things. And he wasn't, he wasn't perfect. And I think this is one of like the blackest marks on his record.
Speaker: is being complicit in this. He would later go on to, when he was running for the Democratic nomination for president, very much a civil rights leader, I suppose, like pushing for civil rights, pushing for integration, all of those things. So I i think this scenario shaped his future politics.
Speaker: And we'll circle back around to that a little bit. Yeah, for sure. But I do think it's it's important to remember not everybody is all good and people can make bad choices and perhaps make up for them later in life, perhaps try to, to you know, repent for those things. So that's why that stands out to me.
Speaker: Yeah, I get it. Now your boy, Jimmy Hoffa. Jimmy Okay, so Jimmy Hoffa. So the relationship between Bobby and Teamsters Union President Jimmy Hoffa, you know, you could call it contentious, to say the least. You may want to actually call it bitter, obsessive, and a highly publicized decades-long feud.
Speaker: They definitely had clashing personalities. Bobby was an aristocratic Harvard-educated millionaire from a powerful political dynasty, and Hoffa was tough, street-smart, working-class labor leader, and possibly mobster, who viewed Kennedy as just like spoiled and self-righteous and hypocritical, which might be justified yeah because...
Speaker: Because Joe Kennedy Sr. was a known bootlegger. Part of the Kennedy fortune was amassed during Prohibition and Joe doing not legal things. He would pivot as we talked about and make his fortune in other ways, but he this was this was known.
Speaker: So with all that, let's talk about Jack's election. So we're going back to 1960. That election was incredibly tight. Joe used his influence with the mafia to help get his son, Jack, elected. So he was running against Nixon at this time, I believe. But Nixon also had mob ties.
Speaker: So it's also interesting at that time that Joseph McCarthy was a close friend of the Kennedy family. He was so close that he was Bobby and Ethel's first child, Kathleen's godfather. Did not know that. Very interesting.
Speaker: I know. So in addition to these mafia connections that were already, that Joseph McCarthy was a bit of side thing. um I'm going to touch on him a little more later or too. Okay, cool.
Speaker: Jack and Frank Sinatra obviously had connections. And Sinatra was very openly and publicly used by organized crime bosses. I think it was probably they were using one another, the crime bosses and Sinatra. But I think so. So there is a bunch of context for what we're going to get into.
Speaker: Bobby was chosen to be chief counsel for the Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field, also known as the Rackets Committee, which launched on January 31, 1957. This group led investigations and public hearings into corruption into the movement of trade unions.
Speaker: Jamie Hoffa was the international president of the Michigan Conference of Teamsters, which was rumored to have deep associations with organized crime. Teamsters are probably, or primarily truck drivers, right? It was a truck truck driver. Yes, Exactly.
Speaker: And Hoffa wielded the power of every industry that needed trucking. He was likely involved in racketeering and it harmed the Teamsters.
Speaker: He partnered with organized crime to increase his power and was basically seen as an autocrat within the organization that he was leading. Now, corruption appalled Bobby. So he wanted to go after these types of organizations.
Speaker: Jack tried to discourage him from going after these gangsters because he was worried that this would alienate the support for his own political career. So endearing. Yeah. Bobby was appointed to a subcommittee that used to be Joseph MacArthur's spot while Jack was a Massachusetts senator.
Speaker: Okay, so just to go back. So Joseph McCarthy... a.k.a. godfather to Bobby and Ethel's first child, um was an infamous Republican senator from Wisconsin. And he became the chief architect of the anti-communist crusades during the Cold War.
Speaker: Some would say he took it a bit too far. um His aggressive, unsubstantiated tactics gave rise to a term called McCarthyism, which stands as a universal synonym to this day for demagoguery, reckless political accusations, and socet and sensationalized witch hunt.
Speaker: don't know. Have you ever, like, does that remind you of anything in today's politics? I don't know. yeah I can't think of anything. Yeah. So weird nice well, what's interesting. So, OK, so Bobby was upset that he wasn't given the position as McCarthy's chief counsel. So Bobby is an attorney at this time. He's not him fully in politics yet as as like an official role. Interestingly, this position of McCarthy's chief counsel went to, and my notes say, the embodiment of pure evil, Roy Cohn. Do you mean the same Roy Cohn?
Speaker: Who went on to become the legal and political fixer in New York City in the 1960s and 70s? Yeah, the one that, oh, you go. yeah Yeah, absolutely. the what maybe And then went on to represent Donald Trump during his early business career. Is that the that the right one you're talking about? That's the right one.
Speaker: And the one that to this day, Donald Trump says he bases his life around, more or less. And I know this is weird, but I saw a picture and he kind of looks like RFK Jr.,
Speaker: Oh, interesting. Like totally different, but kind of weirdly this tanned same. But yeah. Well, so one of my favorite plays of all time is Angels in America. And Roy Cohn is a character in that play. And I saw it on Broadway and Nathan Lane played him. So hi well, it's sad now because then I when I hear Roy Cohn, I think of Nathan Lane. Yeah. Yeah. Who don't have a lot.
Speaker: They might have some things in common. No. In terms of perhaps... Okay, I was like starting to think. All right, moving on. All right, all right. Back to Bobby, back to bob Bobby. So Bobby didn't have a strong moral conviction about corruption in unions, but he knew this fight would give him more name recognition.
Speaker: So this is where I always... I kind of wanted to think that Bobby's stance against the mafia was like because he was a truly good guy. But i think I may have been naive there. I think two things can be true. i took i think I think some of it was pure and, you know, he was upset by corruption. i think that's probably true. But also i think he's a Kennedy and – He was raised to take advantage of situations to his, you know, to benefit him.
Speaker: Yeah. And I mean, I see it now, like how his aristocratic, spoiled, rich kid vibe working on the side of the working man. It does.
Speaker: it does It does seem a little hypocritical. Yeah. Yeah. But what's not in politics? Right. Exactly. So what this all led to was very public hearings, basically with Bobby interrogating Hoffa.
Speaker: About hit all of his, of Jimmy Hoffa's bad behavior, let's say. okay These hearings were incredibly contentious. And it was like palpable how much Hoffa and Bobby disliked each other.
Speaker: So through these hearings, Bobby was really out of his element and he would get frustrated and he would even like pop off in anger during the hearings. And Hoffa like pushed the butt, like pushed buttons to get him to that point. And i remember Bobby was pretty young at this point and he had really never been a practicing lawyer. He'd not been a lawyer. And so he probably was a little creepy. Yeah, yeah. So Hoffa would do these little like,
Speaker: Just these little things to bug him. Like he would answer, I don't recall, instead of pleading the fifth, because pleading the fifth is interpreted as some sort of guilt, even though it's not supposed to be. he'd just be like, i don't know.
Speaker: The whole thing on both sides was so performative that history has compared these public hearings to like pro wrestling antics.
Speaker: that they were just trying to piss each other off. And really, like looking back historically, it's like two major American archetypes up against each other. And blue collar people saw Hoffa outsmarting the upper class elite Bobby.
Speaker: and I put Hoffa would stare at Bobby in a way that said, you're an idiot. I'm feeling a little bad for Bobby at this moment. I know. I do. I do. But like ultimately, this was never about protecting union members.
Speaker: And we know this because most of the subcommittee was anti-union and very close with the Kennedy family. The corruption in businesses was, at this time, always blamed on unions and not employers, right?
Speaker: who were taking advantage of unions. It's like the bosses saying that the unions are the ones making this hard for everybody. and employees would always lose out. They would lose out on these corrupt deals between employers and union leaders. And what Bobby was doing instead of protecting the union members and employees was endearing himself to the business world. He was showing business that he'd stand up for them, not just the regular working class guy.
Speaker: But it was also said that Jimmy Hoffa was using the Teamsters' pensions. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was, the the workers lost. Like, both sides weren't fighting for workers. They were fighting for their own benefit.
Speaker: There was no truly good altruistic personalities in this situation. In this fight. Yeah. Later on, as Jack's attorney general, Bobby aggressively prosecuted organized crime with a lot of success until Jack died.
Speaker: Again, Hoffa being a little snarky. With the end of Jack's administration, Hoffa publicly said, quote, Bobby Kennedy is just a lawyer now. Too soon, Hoffa.
Speaker: Oh, my God. There are some, we talked a little bit about this in the JFK episodes, but there are some conspiracy theories about Hoffa and Jack's assassination. you know, things like Hoffa was friends with Jack Ruby, the man who shot Lee Harvey Oswald. Hoffa had his own plans to kill Bobby, um that he actually aided the mafia to kill Jack to get Bobby out of the attorney general position. it's just like...
Speaker: They just hated each other so much that when Jack died, not even when Bobby died, when Jack died, they were like, oh, Jimmy Hoffa did it. And i anyone who listened to all of our JFK assassination theories, this probably had something to do with it somewhere.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Along with a lot of other factors. Right. And i don't even know if it was Hoffa himself as much as just like of mob interests. That's where it just gets so complicated.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So to Hoffa, let's wrap him up. He would eventually go to federal prison for 13-year sentence for jury tampering, fraud, and conspiracy. But Nixon commuted his sentence in 1971 after Hoffa supported him from prison.
Speaker: On July 30th, 1975, Hoffa was supposed to meet up with a pair of gangsters, but the men said he never arrived. And no one saw Jimmy Hoffa ever again. At this time, he had wanted, so he was out of out of jail. He wanted his former position back, the position of power within these organizations. But no one was willing to relinquish the power that they kind of took what he was sent to prison. and He created like a power vacuum, basically.
Speaker: which resulted in a war within the Teamsters. Hoffa disappeared in the midst of murders of other mob bosses who were slated to testify regarding the mob's association with JFK's assassination.
Speaker: He was listed presumed dead in 1982. And in terms of Bobby, ultimately, he did not root out the mafia. He made the mob even harder to control.
Speaker: feels like that's all we can that's all they can do yeah lessons learned over and over lessons learned all right tell me a little bit i would like to come back and delve into hoffa i do yeah in the future but let's let's move on all right move on to the assassination yes so the last bit of bobby's kennedy curse was obviously he was assassinated so similar again how we kind of went through Jack's assassination that we kind of laid out some of the things that are either facts or the narrative we have learned throughout history.
Speaker: We're going to kind of lay the basics out for the assassination and we'll come back to some of the weirdness at some point so after jack died bobby had basically taken the mantle of leading the family he had no patience for incompetence from his children and he put all of his focus into politics to be fair though it is said that um as a man he completely transformed when he walked through the door at home yeah um He shed his fierce, hard-charging public persona and became gentle and highly attentive father.
Speaker: yeah you know Maybe a little rose-colored glasses and how we're yeah finding that. Again, I think he, of the four, was probably the best, most attentive father. There's 11 kids. Yeah, I know. I know. um He was deeply, it was said he was deeply involved in his children's lives. And um he participated i't in horse play and roughhousing on the lawn. And, of course, touch football This family is playing touch football all the time and making it very clear they are not playing tackle.
Speaker: Yes, very clear. And this goes up until probably today that they do touch football. I know. They really enjoy the touch football. so Well, obviously, his brother's death changed him.
Speaker: But he took kind of the role as the new leader of the family in supporting everybody else through the loss and didn't deal with his own depression. and he would only talk to Jackie about his grief, not his own wife.
Speaker: So we know Bobby was appointed to the U.S. Attorney General under Jack. Lyndon B. Johnson retained him in his cabinet after Jack died. Jack's death made him more empathetic to the plight of others, pushing Bobby to become more progressive. He was in Indianapolis, a city with a high population of black Americans, when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.
Speaker: So there's this like incredible speech he gave when he had was in Indianapolis. He announced Martin Luther King Jr.'s death and he was credited with quelling potential violence that could have broken out.
Speaker: Like he just happened to be there. Yeah, no, this speech, it was completely impromptu. Yeah. um And it was just iconic. um In fact, we'll play a little bit of it here. yeah I have some very sad news for all of you.
Speaker: And that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight Memphis, Memphis. Martin Luther King dedicated his life to love and to justice between fellow human beings.
Speaker: He died in the cause of that effort. In this difficult day, this difficult time for the United States, It's perhaps well to ask what kind of a nation we are and what direction we want to move in.
Speaker: For those of you who are black, considering the evidence evidently is that there were white people who were responsible, you can be filled with bitterness and with hatred and a desire for revenge.
Speaker: We can move in that direction as a country in greater polarization. Black people amongst blacks and white amongst whites filled with hatred toward one another.
Speaker: We can make an effort, as Martin Luther King did, to understand and to comprehend and replace that violence, that stain of bloodshed that is spread across our land with an effort to understand, compassion and love.
Speaker: um He actually delivered it from the back of a flatbed truck yeah i'm in a predominantly black neighborhood in Indianapolis. Again, he just happened to be there at the time. He had no prepared text and had only learned of King's death moments before taking the stage. And police advised him not to take the stage because they didn't feel like they could protect him.
Speaker: yeah During the speech, he acknowledged the death of Jack for the first time. And he said he understood the temptation for bitterness and revenge, but he did call for calm. And um although across the U.S. nearly 100 cities erupted into violent riots following King's death, Indianapolis remained fairly calm. Yeah.
Speaker: So, he yeah, he did this incredible thing. He was told not to. and I think, you know, Jack's death gave him a heightened awareness about the potential for his own death. And he still gave this this speech because it was the right thing to do, regardless of his safety. so In 1964, polls indicated that Democrats wanted Bobby to be Johnson's running mate in the upcoming presidential election. But Bobby instead ran for a seat, ran for a New York State Senate seat, and he won that.
Speaker: So fast forward four years, the 1968 presidential campaign was incredibly contentious. Vietnam and the civil rights movement had divided the country.
Speaker: Bobby had decided that he was not going to run against Johnson because he didn't want to split the party. However, when U.S. Senator from Minnesota, Eugene McCarthy, ran against Johnson in the primaries, he nearly beat Johnson. So after seeing Johnson's near loss to McCarthy, Bobby announced his candidacy.
Speaker: um He did so after becoming a major critic of Johnson's handling of the Vietnam war which Kennedy saw as like a disastrous and divisive um that when it was compromised and it was compromising America's moral standing with the world.
Speaker: Again, history repeats itself. During his travels across the U.S., he became more aware of the plight of poverty in areas like the Mississippi Delta, and began visiting starving children. You know, I didn't realize, but back in the day, before he became a sinner, he probably wouldn't have been to places like the Deep South. yeah yeah We take for granted, I think, how much we travel now um and how much the world seems smaller, but i yeah yeah it had to be very eye-opening for for him.
Speaker: And I think it was it was honest. I think it was genuine. I do, too. I do, too. Yeah. um He witnessed the striking migrant workers in California alongside Cesar Chavez, and he really wanted to give voice to the marginalized and bridge the growing divide between the rich and the poor, which, again, can seem a little maybe hypocritical, but...
Speaker: He was trying. No, I do. I do think he saw things for the first time in his life that he had never seen. And he and Cesar Chavez apparently actually kind of hit it off.
Speaker: They yeah yeah found each other very interesting and spent a lot of time talking. Yeah. With Bobby's announcement of his candidacy and this this speech.
Speaker: In 1968, Johnson bowed out of the race. However, Johnson's vice president, Hubert Humphrey, announced his candidacy once Johnson bowed out.
Speaker: So they're still a contentious primary. So on June 4th, 1968, Bobby was in the lead for the California primary. He brought some of his family to the Ambassador Hotel for the primary election um along with him. They spent some time at the beach where Bobby actually saved his son David from drowning in the ocean.
Speaker: Hours later in their hotel room, David would watch his father be assassinated on TV. Well, side note, following the assassination, there is a special episode of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood where Mr. Rogers discussed what an assassination was to Daniel Tiger. And Mr. Rogers urged parents to monitor what their children were watching on TV and try to limit their exposure to violence. You gotta to love Mr. Rogers.
Speaker: Mr. Rogers is perfect. Okay. So ah back to where we were. Bobby did in fact win the California primary and he was in the ambassador hotel with his supporters, his aides, people working on the campaign and his family were up in their room. When they found out they had won this California primary at 12.02 AM, Bobby addressed his supporters and at in what like a ballroom of the hotel so interesting he had no secret service he didn't even have any like california police protection he only had his personal security yeah so that could is that a hubris thing is that a you know who knows is that a is that a conspiracy thing that is that right right we're back to the curse
Speaker: At 1210 a.m., he concluded his speech and planned on going to another room where more supporters were gathered. One of his security guards took him through the hotel's kitchen to go directly to the press area instead.
Speaker: As he was led through the kitchen, Bobby shook hands with supporters and supporters. employees of the hotel who were celebrating and excited and thrilled to see him. He turned to his left to shake hands with Juan Romero, a 17-year-old kitchen employee, as Sirhan Sirhan ran past, firing at Bobby.
Speaker: Five bystanders were wounded and Sirhan Sirhan had to be wrestled to the ground. He actually broke free and grabbed the gun again, but was swiftly disarmed.
Speaker: They say he put up quite the fight. Yeah. And it was while the gun, like somebody was holding his hand, like that he continued shooting, I believe. Yeah. That's when a lot of the shots went off.
Speaker: So I have to recommend a movie that's not actually great, but I really like. The Emilio Estevez directed movie Bobby. And I actually think like it's kind of cheesy and it's like whatever. But I actually think this scene was done pretty well where you can kind of see like the melee and the mayhem and the chaos.
Speaker: Okay, so I've got to admit, you had told me to watch this movie. And I did. And I didn't want to say anything because I didn't know that you realized it was kind of cheesy. Oh, it's totally cheesy.
Speaker: I think I told you in the text. this is so I think I was like, because I was traveling. I think I was in Columbia when I downloaded it Yeah. But here's the worst part. It was so bad. I didn't watch it till the end. So I never saw this scene and I rented it. So now I can.
Speaker: Well, yeah, it's super cheesy. I think, I think it was Emilio Estevez's first time directing something. And the cast is insane. It was obviously like people in Hollywood, like Emilio Estevez and they were like, yeah, we'll do your movie. Demi Moore did it and they played a married couple.
Speaker: ah Okay. I'm such a loser. I didn't even, i didn't even catch on to all these people. I was just like, I don't know about this movie. She's this movie. She said was great. It's like Sharon stone. Okay.
Speaker: I, to be fair, I didn't say it was great. I said, it's a not good movie that I like.
Speaker: That's different than great. right. Well, this is all just coming out now. But point being, I did not watch this scene. i I think this scene did a really good job of actually like it was chaos and like what it was like in that kitchen.
Speaker: Hey, I ah i work in a kitchen at a hotel. So um yeah, right. As my side gig. So I fully understand chaos in kitchen. Yes. Yes. So ah the 17 year old Juan Romero held Bobby's hand and put a rosary in his hand. There's this incredible picture of this.
Speaker: Bobby asked Juan if everyone was okay. And Juan said, yes. And Bobby said to him, like this kid who's trying to comfort him, Bobby said, quote, everything's going to be okay.
Speaker: sweet Yeah. ethel was three months pregnant and was nowhere near the scene at the time she was in the hotel rooms with her kids somebody got her and brought her to bobby bobby's brother in law and campaign manager steven smith asked for a doctor Medical attendants arrived and put him on a stretcher and he whispered, don't lift me.
Speaker: I think he was in pain and just didn't. Okay, I was going to say, did that have a meaning? Yeah, it So Bobby had a heartbeat at first and doctors even allowed Ethel to listen to his heartbeat through the stethoscope.
Speaker: He was brought into surgery and they discovered that the fatal shot had entered behind his right ear and he had been hit two more times as well. He was pronounced dead at 1.44 a.m. on June 6th.
Speaker: At the hospital, it was actually Jackie who persuaded Ethel to turn off the machines that were keeping Bobby alive. I think the way I wrote this is a little cold, but I can't think of a different way to to put it.
Speaker: Just like Jackie, the public had little regard for also Ethel's trauma. So the public was just like, yeah, whatever. They're fine. Do we know if Jackie and Ethel were close at all?
Speaker: um We'll talk a little bit about it later. They were closer later in life. um I think they always... had esteem for one another. and then, know, think it was complicated. Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. And this is a while down the line, but when we talk about Jackie's death, that really kind of solidified Ethel's love for her. Once Jackie passed, she was kind of like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to do this without her.
Speaker: Fully appreciated. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it seems like a complicated in-law relationship, um, And now they have this like weird shared trauma that nobody knows how to deal with because Kennedy's don't have feelings.
Speaker: Got it. So Jackie actually sunk into a very deep depression after Bobby's death. It's partially because we talked a little bit about after Jack died, Jackie and Bobby sought comfort in one another to the point that some even said they kept each other from killing themselves.
Speaker: their depressions were so deep. There were rumors that it was romantic. um After Jack died, Bobby had helped her purchase a home for her and her kids. Bobby struggled moving forward, but he was now, you know, after Jack died, he was appointed the head of the family or whatever. And at the time after Jack died, Ethel had told Jackie that Jack's death was quote God's plan.
Speaker: So now they're in this weird role reversal. Of Jackie having to convince Ethel that she needed to let go. And saying without saying, maybe it's God's plan.
Speaker: I don't, you know. So it's just like this complicated shared experience. Yeah. Bobby's funeral was held at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City.
Speaker: After his body was transported to Washington, D.C., And he was buried near Jack in Arlington National Cemetery. and it was the first burial that was actually held at night at Arlington National Cemetery. That would have been beautiful. I know.
Speaker: and why i I think it was because he was a divisive character. in terms of the civil rights movement. And I think the family was afraid that, you know, protesters could come or something or people who were segregationists or even the Klan, like protesting his burial.
Speaker: But actually when you said that, I see that actually as a beautiful thing. I don't know. yeah I mean, we do, but the Kennedys who have this, you know, they have to be perfect at all times.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. you know, I think wouldn't peace wouldn want that. Famously, actually, Bobby, the autopsy on Bobby's body was incredibly detailed and thorough. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I think they couldn't let any questions. Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. So they had to be transparent about things like that. And still there are questions. Well, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah So Humphrey would go on to win the um the nomination, which actually led to violence. People were very upset that he won the nomination. And then Nixon would go on to defeat Humphrey and Nixon became the president. Bobby was only 43 when he died.
Speaker: That's crazy. Yeah. I'm 41. That's crazy. I'm older. That's wild. Yeah. I mean, you're 29 easily.
Speaker: um So I actually think... that Bobby's assassination was a bigger turning point in American history than Jack's. I i might not argue with that.
Speaker: Yeah, I think Bobby was becoming so much more progressive. i think it was a huge setback for- a matt Right. Imagine if RFK was president instead of Nixon.
Speaker: On that note, on that positive note. So we're going wrap it up there. um Next episode, we're going to talk, we're going to focus more on Ethel, um her life after the assassination, some of the scandals that she faced and her kids, I almost said like her kids went through, but really put their mother through.
Speaker: That's why you don't have 11 kids. I was going to say, she is now a single mother to 11 children. Actually 10 and she's pregnant with the 11th. Her life after the assassination was crazy.
Speaker: um So yeah, we're going to talk about that next. Okay. Thank you guys for joining us. Yeah, we will see you guys next time. Bye.
