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Daily Womens Football: Episode 106: Is the WSL really the most competitive league in Europe?
15 Plays20 days ago
Join Catherine for a look at how the WSL compares to other leagues around Europe. Is it really the most competitive? What about facilities or media attention? What are the other differences?
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Beyond the Pitch'
00:00:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Pitch, a daily women's football podcast brought to you by the Global Sports Podcast Network. I'm Catherine and today I'm solo again. I'm all by myself. No, that is really not how the song goes. I'm really tired. um Anyway, it's very nice to see you all. You're out there in ethos listening to this. um Yeah, I haven't been on my own for quite a while.
00:00:39
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So it's nice to see you all.
Comparing International Leagues to WSL
00:00:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
So what we're going to talk about today, as you all know or you will do if you've listened to this podcast before, hint, hint, I like to go traveling virtually ah by watching football from different leagues. I quite often watch leagues from in France. I really like the Eredivisé in the Netherlands. I try to catch the Saudi Pro League whenever I can, or the Saudi Premier League.
00:01:08
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um So today I thought I would share a few of the differences I've noticed of these other leagues compared to the WSL, but where I think the WSL can learn from other leagues and what I think we're already doing quite well.
Quality Disparities in Football Facilities
00:01:23
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So the first topic is quality of facilities. um Watching some of the FA Cup games this weekend actually reminded me of the variation in pitch quality we have.
00:01:33
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um especially when you go beneath the WSL light to the championship in the ah National League and so forth. I think you don't have to get very far before the facilities begin to get like very muddy pitches and um like in the Wolves versus United game, of which was a cracking game and, you know, huge, huge products to Wolves for kind of the atmosphere they created it and everything. But the goal the goal was so kind of like,
00:02:04
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flappy in the wind, um which I thought was quite funny. And even, I'm really sorry Arsenal fans, I know there are a lot of you and you're very, very vocal, but I hate Meadow Park. So I went to watch Arsenal v Bayern and it was raining and he had to might walk through a field to get there or across like a park or something and it was really, really muddy and I slipped and I got mud everywhere.
Stadium Experiences and Atmosphere
00:02:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
And yeah, I just wasn't a fan of Meadow Park. I'm really sorry Arsenal.
00:02:34
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fans. Um, however, I think this is actually compared to other leagues. We actually have it pretty good, um, in the WSL in particular, uh, less so I think when you get further down, as I said, into the championship and so forth. Um, for example, in Scotland, uh, you've got some teams playing in stadiums with capacities of like 100, 200, 300, um, really, really small.
00:03:05
Global Sports Podcast Network
And in the Netherlands as well, ah you have quite a lot of variation. I've watched quite a few games where it kind of looks like they're playing at school. um So, yeah. ah One, there's a couple of places that I really like ah that are kind of academy facilities that the women's teams play in, but they're actually really nice. One is PSG. If you've ever watched their games, PSG's campus looks really, really, really nice.
00:03:33
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I used really three times there, so that tells you how nice it is. It looks very modern and even the gym and everything looks so modern. It looks great. um Also, Bayern, Bayern's campus looks really, really nice. I love how close the fans are to the pitch. And yeah, that's top of my list.
Facilities in Dutch Football
00:03:56
Global Sports Podcast Network
I really want to go to Munich to Bayern campus. I was going to go to the Wolfsburg game in mid-March, but something came up with her work. ah Yeah, pesky work. Anyway, so, yeah, the WSL grounds, I do you think are best in a lot of leagues. In the Netherlands, yeah, you can you can really see it sometimes with, they do look like school pitches. I will say my favourite Dutch team, um the Storks. I need to, because I actually talked to a few people in,
00:04:30
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ah fans of the stalks now. I need to remember to call them Addo and not the stalks. They're in the the Hague anyway. And yeah,
00:04:41
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I really need to remember to call them by their name and not just the stalks, but I just love that stalks. I mean, that's such a great mascot. Anyway, ah they are one of the only teams. I think they are the only team in and the netherland Netherlands who actually play all of their home games at the main stadium. And you can really see the difference. It's a really nice stadium. The pitch quality looks fantastic. Um, really comfortable seats. I will say they look like the, you know, gaming computer chairs, really soft padded. They look really nice. And, um, but then you watch some of the other teams and you've got like, maybe maybe a small hut, uh, with, with, you know, um, with some seating around it and
00:05:28
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people mainly standing around the barricades. And you know I think that does have its own feeling and it has its own kind of quality to it. But if we're talking about professionalizing the women's game, I think you do have to sacrifice that.
Investment and Professionalization Challenges
00:05:44
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So the second thing I wanted to touch on comparison point is investment. Now, I do think we, again, have it pretty good in the WSL. um It's been quote unquote fully professional since 2018. However, I have a huge issue with calling um the WSL or any other league fully professional for one main reason. um So to me, this is Just my opinion, I think that to call the WSL a fully professional league is wrong because the players can't act as fully professional athletes because their careers Their careers are short. Uh, so a football player, female or male retired, retires generally between 35 and 40, right? They don't earn in the female game, in the women's game, in the WSL, they don't earn enough that they can then
00:06:43
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live comfortably after they retire or live just generally not even comfortably after they retire on their earnings from their career. They need to have something else they need to have a plan for what they're going to do when they stop playing football. And in the men's game I think that
00:07:04
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Players know play plays know that even if they ah don't you know if they don't want to work after they finish their career, they can just and live very comfortably off their earnings on their career. And I think the where that has an impact is in the women's game, when the women playing and you know being paid a decent salary, but not and anything compared to the men's game.
00:07:32
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they have to have a backup plan and therefore they have to be actively doing something to prepare for the future. um Like in the Netherlands, I know that a lot of the professional players are actually at uni or working, um like from the stalks, Barbara, who's the kind of ah veteran goalkeeper, she's been their goalkeeper for like 15 years. She also works as a swimming teacher or swimming coach.
00:07:59
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um And so they can't dedicate their time 100% to the football, which of course is going to have an impact on the quality of the game, um, the standards and kind of what they can actually put into their career. Um, so that always drives me crazy as well. When you get people talking about the different standards or the different levels in the men's game, in the women's game, compared to the men's and we're like, well, yeah, but the men, uh, own enough that they can
00:08:30
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put their whole lives into their career. I mean, I watched an interview with a Manchester United defender Lenny Euro with Rio Ferdinand and Lenny Euro's really young. I think he's like 19, 20. And he was saying he has an infrared room for recovery at home. And I just think women's team players, even though they're professional, they wouldn't be able to afford that. I mean,
00:08:56
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this This is the caveat. I don't know how much players like top players at top clubs like Leah Williamson. I don't know how much she earns. So that is the caveat there. i'm I would make a guess that it's not enough that she could afford to have an infrared room at home. And of course, that has an impact on um the levels that they can reach because they're having to put they can't devote all of their time to football, they have to put time into something else. So I don't think you can call it fully professional. Other leagues, though, around Europe, I feel a step behind even what the WSL is. For example, in the WSL, you have the rule that, isn't it like every Premier League club has to fund a women's team and has to put a certain amount in? I don't think that exists elsewhere. And in places like
00:09:50
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um places like Italy and Spain, I think quite a lot of the teams are very poorly funded. um And I think they're still kind of making their steps towards, quote unquote, professionalization. ah So yeah, I think that is, again, something that we can feel happy about, we can feel proud about with the WSL, but we also have to admit that that is a long way
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00:10:14
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00:10:19
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00:10:39
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So the third topic of comparison for me is competitiveness. Now, I'm going to be controversial here, guys. Warning, we need to have a sound effect for Katherine being controversial. Um, I don't think the WSL is the most competitive league in Europe. No. I mean, we say it is, I think we like to, um, who we like to say that it is, but when you have one team winning the league for like six years in a row, no other team
00:11:12
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really getting that close. I mean, you can say about Citi last year, but I still don't think they came that close. Then how competitive is it really?
Competitiveness of WSL vs. Other Leagues
00:11:23
Global Sports Podcast Network
Although I think sometimes the results don't actually match up to the performances, for example, Crystal Palace, I feel like have had some really good performances, but have kind of been the scorelines won't reflect that. I do think you come, you go into every game pretty much knowing who's going to win.
00:11:40
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um
00:11:41
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Is it getting better? I like to think so. um I think that particularly for the teams outside of the top kind of three or four, they are getting closer together.
00:11:53
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um I think those games are really difficult to call now and they kind of seem to be on very much an equal footing. However, I still think that teams like Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, I might put Man United in there, um are still a cut above. And I think the gap is still pretty, pretty wide.
00:12:20
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So the league that I think is the most competitive, and again, this is just my opinion. Uh, you can disagree. I'm very happy for people to do disagree with me. Um, I think the most competitive is the Frau and Bundesliga in Germany. I mean, I follow Bayern Munich, so I watch a lot of the games and like even the teams coming top, it has in the past been kind of dominated by either Bayern or
00:12:48
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Wolfsburg. However, nowadays, I mean, Frankfurt are currently top. And I think more than anything else, I watch these games thinking, oh, God, this team is like 10th, but they're really giving Bayern or Frankfurt or Wolfsburg, they're really giving them a run for their money. um And what was it? Wolfsburg were beaten not long ago by a team they shouldn't have been beaten by.
00:13:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
Bayern have had a streak of conceding early to teams work far below them. um Yeah, I think the Fran Bundesliga is very competitive and I think it's becoming more so, much more so with more kind of international players coming in. um So yeah, I think the least competitive leagues in Europe, again, my opinion, probably obviously Spain, I mean,
00:13:43
Global Sports Podcast Network
Real Madrid are doing well, but are they going to use Barcelona? I don't think so. Barcelona, I think, just run Riot every year, don't they? um You pretty much know when when teams are winning 6, 7, 8, 0 every single week. I think that tells you something about the quality of the league. I think in Scotland is much the same, so I follow Aberdeen and They lost 10-0 last weekend. I think in Scotland, it very much tends to be Glasgow City. um
00:14:20
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Nowadays with, ah I'm going to mis mispronounce her name, and I'm really sorry, Eliana Sadikou, yeah, at Celtic.
Predictable Outcomes in Certain Leagues
00:14:32
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Celtic, sorry, I had Chelsea stuck in my head for some reason. I think because I was just talking about them. ah Yeah, they kind of run away with the leagues every year, and the teams far below them, like Aberdeen, can never really touch them. In the Netherlands, I feel like it's very much a top six versus a bottom six. So you have kind of these six teams, um like, well, obviously FC Twent, who have won everything and they run away with the league a lot of years. Ajax obviously, Feyenoord and I think FC Utrecht now are coming into this conversation as kind of the top. Yeah, you have like a top six and the top six is competitive amongst themselves and the bottom six are competitive amongst themselves, but they don't really, you I think it's quite hard for someone in the bottom six to move into that top six. um I don't think that tends to happen very easily.
00:15:32
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And I think unfortunate for my unfortunately for my stalks who I love, um they tend to be called the best, what is it, the best of the rest because they tend to be at the top of that um bottom six. Yeah. um In France, I think obviously Leon has had a monopoly. PSG comes into it a little bit. So yeah, I don't think the WSL has much competition in terms of great leagues, but I do think the Fraunbunders Leaguer in Germany is above it. And that's my controversial take for the day.
Officiating Styles Across Leagues
00:16:11
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So the next difference I want to talk about is officiating. So I'm going to limit the number of times I can say so, by the way, I have picked up, I say it quite a lot. um
00:16:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, the levels of officiating or kind of I'm not, so I'm not actually that sure whether the WSL officiating is the best or whether it's just kind of different standards. One thing that I've noticed in the area that we say, uh, in the Netherlands, it's a lot more physical and, uh, the ref kind of lets a lot more go. Uh, like this quite often a challenge where I think, Oh God, in the WSL, that would be a yellow or that would be a free kick or whatever.
00:16:55
Global Sports Podcast Network
Um, yeah, the refs definitely let, let a lot more go. It's a very physical game. Um, I feel like in Germany and France, it's more aligned to what the WSL is. I think maybe the Netherlands is an outlier there, but it's quite interesting now because whenever I watch the Netherlands national team, I like to look at them and see whether they kind of have a similar physicality to them. Of course, a lot of the.
00:17:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
Dutch players in the national team actually don't play in the Netherlands. They play elsewhere, but yeah. Refereeing definitely seems different. And again, I'm not sure if it's which one is better or kind of what is levels above. I think it's just different standards for um but what constitutes kind of a foul, which is, yeah, interesting, but I'm not going to say that one's better than the other.
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00:18:11
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The next topic. The next point that I've kind of highlighted as a difference between the WSL and other leagues is the profile of players.
Multicultural Influence in the WSL
00:18:21
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um So in the WSL, we have, it's very multicultural. We have players from all over the world. um I mean, just think about Manchester United starting 11. Actually Manchester United is probably a bad, um not not the best analogy because they actually have quite a few
00:18:42
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uh, English players in the team. However, look at maybe a man's city. I think there was a game. When was it that I noticed man city? Um, and I'm not saying this is a bad thing, by the way, I am fully on board with this. They didn't have an English player in their starting 11. And I just, I don't think you would see that in any other league in Europe in the women's game.
00:19:06
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At the moment, I think that will come with more investment because obviously you need then the money to bring these players in. Um, however, yeah, that's definitely a big difference in the WSL. I'm not sure I need to look up. I think it was, I thought, uh, I'm not sure what game that was with city. Uh, yeah, it would have been with Yamashita in goal, not Kiyara Keating. Uh, yeah, but anyway, they didn't have an English player in their starting 11.
00:19:36
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And um yeah, I think it's a really good thing personally because I think diversity brings strength and you want to bring the best players in so that your players learn from these best players. I mean, it's a similar thing that you talk about in teaching ah with kind of mixed attainment classes that they learn from each other, children learn from each other.
00:20:01
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um Over in other leagues, I think the French league is becoming more multicultural. Players obviously like Marry Europe is going to PSG. They have quite a few Dutch players as well.
00:20:13
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And I feel like it's the same in Germany. um By Munich, obviously, George Stanway plays there. However, I do think it tends to be the outlier rather than the norm.
00:20:25
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um, to have kind of foreign players in your teams. The WSL is definitely the most, uh, multicultural. But again, I do see that changing with increased investment and so forth. Uh, in the Netherlands, I can't think of many foreign players. I mean, obviously there's Lily Johannes, uh, Ajax, who is, uh, American, but she only just chose to represent America because she was also eligible to represent the Netherlands. Um,
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So I don't think I can really truly count her. I think they tend to go kind of Belgians. um Yeah, if there are foreign players in the area, we say, I feel like they're mainly going to be from Belgium. Obviously, they did used to have the conjoined league, the Beanie League. um I still love that name, by the way. So, yeah.
00:21:18
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um
00:21:20
Global Sports Podcast Network
Another really interesting ah thing in terms of player profile, the average age of starting 11s is really interesting to dig into.
Age and Career Pathways in Leagues
00:21:29
Global Sports Podcast Network
um One thing that I really noticed is when I was doing my kind of roundup of different leagues around Europe, and I was looking at some of the Netherlands teams and the players are so young. I mean, the captain of, I can't remember which team it was, but it's 21. I mean, Maya Ligisia at Manchester United is 22 and she's captain and that's young.
00:21:50
Global Sports Podcast Network
Um, but like you quite often get 17, 18 year olds and average ages of starting 11s in the Netherlands being like 21, 22. And that being influenced by having one player who's like 32. Um, so that's really interesting. I feel like in the WSL, it's quite often quite a bit older, um, like 23, 24. And then comparing that to the men's game.
00:22:18
Global Sports Podcast Network
Uh, I love doing these little comparisons on sofa score of an evening. The average age is in the men's game much higher again, 2728. Um, so yeah, I think that's really interesting in the Netherlands. I have a feeling it's because a lot of those kind of top players from the Netherlands end up moving abroad to go to clubs abroad. Um, and they call it kind of, and this is their term for it. Uh, so it's not me calling it.
00:22:48
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They call it a training league. um And sometimes some of the clubs in that bottom six call themselves training clubs as well. So I think there tends to be a progression where you kind of start off at one of the bottom six clubs, um like the stalks or here in Veen or something like that, and then go to a top six club like Ajax, Trenta, and then get the move abroad. So it's kind of like a step ladder um is how it seems to work.
00:23:15
Global Sports Podcast Network
I feel like the rest of the leagues are quite more, uh, quite similar to the WSL though. Um, yeah, I think maybe again, the Netherlands is a bit never of an outlier there. Um, but I need to get more into that.
00:23:31
Global Sports Podcast Network
And the last, yes, you are going to not have to hear my voice soon. I know you're also looking forward to my voice going away. Uh, yeah. And the last point of difference I wanted to talk about is media attention.
Media Coverage and Social Media Impact
00:23:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
So in the WSL, I feel like we actually have quite a lot of media attention, um, on our teams compared obviously not compared to the men's game, but compared to like other leagues around Europe. I think the attention is huge. Um, you quite often see full press boxes, which I think is really great and.
00:24:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
on social media, ah the games will actually trend in the UK on social media if you've got a big game, ah like the city versus United Derby, where United 142, yes, thank you, I'm gonna bring that up. um Yeah, I think that was trending on Twitter. So there's a lot more talk about it. I think as well, England we are, and I'm English, so I can say this, we are a nation of complainers.
00:24:34
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And so I think that lends itself very well to social media. People like being vocal and complaining about things they don't like. um And yeah, I feel like people do that with football a lot and you've definitely got groups of fans online kind of, I'm going to single out Arsenal fans, especially because they are, they there are big groups of them online and they kind of drive a conversation forward.
00:24:59
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um I don't always like the way they drive the conversation forward, but I do appreciate that they're bringing kind of more noise and more voices to the conversation. you The success obviously of the lionesses has brought with it huge media attention.
00:25:15
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um
00:25:17
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah. And I feel like in a lot of the other leagues, you don't necessarily get the same level of coverage.
00:25:24
Global Sports Podcast Network
Also in terms of broadcast deals, Sky Sports and the BBC, broadcast were matches regularly. I really like Dezone. They cover a lot of the French league, the German league. I really wish that the Dutch league would ah go with Dezone because it'd be a lot easier to watch. um But yeah, I really love it whenever you see WSL games on Sky Sports main event and things like that. And I think that is a huge thing to say to people, you know, when you get this comment of no one watches women's football. It's like, yes, they do. It's on Sky Sports main event. It wouldn't be on main event if it wasn't a main event for them. Yeah. ah The other leagues, I think they are growing their media coverage since becoming professional. I really like how um in Saudi Arabia, you can watch all of the Saudi league games on to zone on a Friday afternoon, they tend to be.
00:26:24
Global Sports Podcast Network
um So yeah, but that's definitely still a massive difference is the media. And again, I don't think I want to say whether I think something's good or bad. I think it's just different. um Obviously, increased media attention would bring with it hopefully more of an audience and that would breed into investment opportunities. But I do also think that increased kind of social media attention can also bring with it. There are huge dangers to that. Obviously, we've seen with the abuse that Bunny Shaw has been getting getting online and that she and she had to take like a mental health break because of that. I think that is one of, unfortunately, the pitfalls of having such a strong social media presence. um All I love to Bunny Shaw, by the way, that that's horrible and we yeah we all stand with you. So I think that's actually all I have time for. I'll dig into
00:27:22
Global Sports Podcast Network
more kind of differences and have a think about them and come back at a later date. But thank you for joining me and I look forward to welcoming you to the next episode of Beyond the Pitch.