Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I have ADHD. Joy is autistic and we are letting our hyper fixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Kennedy Curse.
Speaker: Hello. Welcome back after our little break. Yeah. Thank you guys for being patient with us again. I so i ended up recording with the leave and eden Leaving Eden podcast, and my neurodivergent brain said, I recorded for the week. Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's so cool that you recorded with them. Tell us a little bit about what what you talked about. So if everybody remembers, we had them on our podcast when we were talking about the Duggars.
Speaker: And a couple weeks ago, they covered the Netflix documentary, The Death of the Pastor's Wife, about Micah Miller and J.P. Miller. And so Sadie, one of the hosts, is an ex- basically cult members. She came from this crazy high control religious group. So they were talking about, you know, the, the domestic violence elements of the docuseries. Um, but she started like kind of asking church questions and I was like, I can answer all of these. And so I emailed them and was like, Hey, you asked this, this, and this, this is what we know, whatever. And, um, Gavi just emailed back, you want to be on the show?
Speaker: That's awesome. we Yeah, they're great. they're they've got it And they've got a pretty popular um podcast. so yeah Yeah. Congratulations on getting on your big time. For those of you who, I don't know, are newer listeners, we did a ton on Micah Millman, the whole case. And we did it a long time ago when it was fresh. Yeah, i actually just looked to see when we started. And it was Micah died at the end of April 2024. And we started talking about it like May 17th, 2024. And we got deep into it. And anyways, we weren't quite as good of podcasters back then. Not the ones we were yet. But but um if anyone, go back and listen to it because I think we had some pretty big insights early on And
Speaker: Maybe it's interesting for those of you who who ended up watching the docuseries on Netflix. I think we have a lot to add. and Yeah. So go back and listen. Well, and the reason they invited me on and at both of us is because they wanted to talk about the theology of J.P. Miller. And Joy is not interested. No, I'm not a into it. Yeah, not at all. And so it was a really good conversation. Yeah.
Speaker: I've been, for some reason, since the docuseries came out, I'm now, like, re-obsessed, but specifically with, like, the churchy side of it.
Speaker: And I'm, like, looking at Bible translations. i'm do i'm i'm I can't stop. And luckily, that was what they wanted to talk about. And I was like, great. I have all this research that I have nothing I'm doing with.
Speaker: That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, that's the one thing about the way we do our podcast is usually it's things you you or I are obsessed with and then the other one works to kind of get fixated on the same thing. Yeah. But I just can't like the, just like the whole theology thing is, yeah, I i just can't get fixated on it. So you have to, so good. This is perfect because yeah, you have, you have all the knowledge and you had a a way to express it and put it out there in the world. So I'm glad for that. yeah,
Speaker: Right after the episode aired. okay So I check the multiple YouTube pages that I know J.P. Miller still has probably daily.
Speaker: And I've done this for a long time. This isn't new. um I'm always just like, is he putting up there? Because he still posts things periodically. Things go up and things go down. So after...
Speaker: The episode was released where I'm talking about how J.P. Miller's theology is J.P. Miller. All of a sudden on one of the YouTube channels that there's been no activity on for months, 33-0- thirty three zero sermons were uploaded and some of them felt intentional and pointed toward me. And those have been down for i mean over a year. They were up at one point. Well, there's so on one one particular he's got multiple on one of them. There are older sermons that he never took down. And it's like a lot of guests. It's just some random ones. It's all before Micah died.
Speaker: There's nothing after. Okay. But it's – so that's why I watch it because I think it's so interesting what he takes down and what he puts up. It's just so weird. And now I'm like, oh, is he like – not communicating with people but like telling people like me who are checking like, I'm watching too. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. um And just to include anyone in who did not who ever listen to our episodes, I actually went out and met JP. And Nikki and I have talked to you and interviewed him together. Well, i I will die on the hill that I think JP really wants Joy to like him.
Speaker: And I'm the first to say, as much as everybody hates hearing it, He's somewhat of a charming human being. He's when you're with him in person, he's likable. I mean, I can see why. He's charismatic. He he knows how he works a room You can see how he charmed people. Yeah.
Speaker: And I don't think he's interested in whether I like him or not. No. And so this isn't the first time that something weird has happened. When I did that solo episode, I think you were traveling after the doc. No, it was when the other docu documentary came out about Michelle Hadley, who got framed for like texting her ex's new wife, all these threats and terrible things.
Speaker: And she was actually arrested and it was never her the whole time. It was her ex and and the woman herself who did it. Now I can't remember the name of it. The woman's name is Michelle Hadley. But I did that solo episode comparing Michelle Hadley's story to Micah's list and how much they overlapped. And Less than 24 hours after we released that episode, JP texted you to check in. Yeah, which is interesting. Yeah, I do hear from him occasionally. um you know, it's rough because since the docuseries came out, i I would love to do a little bit more because I do, again, think we have a lot of insights. um And... ah
Speaker: And I did get to know part of the people in the inner circle, like in person, but also that made it really hard for me to talk about it and be public. It's yeah just kind of hard after you've met people in person. So, so that was a blessing and a curse, but, um, and maybe I, we do really need to get around to it because to be perfectly honest, we have a lot of interesting things to say, if I may say so myself.
Speaker: Yeah, and and i I'm fully aware of those two things. Like, I cannot 100% unequivocally say that it wasn't a coincidence, both things, that he texted you after that episode and he posted a but bajillion sermons after my episode of Leaving Aiden. Of course, I can't 100% say that. Well, maybe someday we'll know.
Speaker: However... i I would be willing to talk about stuff like that again because I feel like he's trying to, I don't know, trying to goad me.
Speaker: I don't know. I don't know why. Something, but it's worth discussing. Okay, okay. We need to get back to... The Kennedys. who we've just Yes.
Speaker: so Okay. So the Kennedys. So ah real quick, um I will say Nikki brought up to me this thing called Grey Gardens, which she seemed like it was obvious that everyone knows about. I had no clue what she was talking about.
Speaker: Yes. So i I'm obsessed with Grey Gardens. I love everything Grey Gardens. um But a back before – I almost said a few years ago, but really like a million years ago, one of my best friends introduced me to the musical Grey Gardens from 2006. And I'd known something about what Grey Gardens was, but then the musical made me obviously fixated.
Speaker: And I watched the documentary. I watched the movie. It's just – They are – Big Edie and Little Edie are incredible characters. They are. And I will say I got very into it and I watched many a documentary and the movie. I watched a lot. um And it is exciting. So – I'm also excited to do kind – I mean there's sad things. There's hard things. But I'm kind of excited to do something a little lighter than Ted Kennedy. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, no, we need to. This is a little break, which it brings us to this is not directly the Kennedys. This is sort of an offshoot, but it's such an interesting topic. I feel like this and then when we get to the murder of Martha Moxley, like both get lumped into the Kennedys because it's like a salacious detail.
Speaker: If that makes sense that like they're related to the Canadi's. Yeah. No, I agree. So I'm just going to say a little bit about what just in general, Grey Gardens. Should I do my little, that paragraph thingy? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. All right. yeah So as always, the sources are in the show notes. So let's get into it.
Speaker: Grey Gardens refers to the home that Edith Ewing Bouvier Beale, or Big Edie, and her daughter, Edith Bouvier Beale, or Little Edie, lived in.
Speaker: A documentary was made about the women and their dilapidated mansion in 1975, which showed the women as being largely abandoned by the rest of their family. Of course, their Kennedy connection was always highlighted in the media.
Speaker: Jackie Bouvier Kennedy Onassis was Big Edie's niece and Little Edie's cousin. So Big E was Jackie's mother's sister, right? They were sisters.
Speaker: Yes. And this property, I mean, as when Jackie was growing up, i mean, she would visit it frequently and hang out with her cousins. The actual Gray Gardens, the home, is like right in the heart of the Hamptons, which is one of the most, I mean, I'm sure people have heard it now, one of the most exclusive and rapidly appreciating real estate markets in the U.S., Yeah.
Speaker: And this property, I mean, as we'll go on to describe it, but keep in mind, it was on 1.7 acres of land with ocean views in the Hamptons.
Speaker: So. Yeah, it was a property. Yes. So keeping that in mind as we get into now what happened through the years with this property.
Speaker: Let's talk about the Edie's. Big Edie was born in 1895 and Little Edie in 1917. Little Edie was born in New York City and had two younger brothers named Phelan Beale Jr. and Bouvier Beale.
Speaker: Big Edie was married to her father, who was named Phelan Beale's law firm partner. That sentence didn't make sense to me either. Yeah, because it kind of sounds like her mother was married to father. Was married to her father. Yeah. So her father, Phelan Beals, his law firm partner, little Big Edie, was married to.
Speaker: And this was like upper crust society. these words Yeah, yeah. She was a debutante. Definite socialites of their time. Yes. So Little Edie was a debutante and was presented to New York Society in 1936.
Speaker: And she was gorgeous. She was stunning. Yeah. Big Edie pursued a music career when Little Edie was young. Big Edie played in small venues and private parties, but never made it big into show business.
Speaker: Now, let it be said, Big Edie maybe didn't have the most stunning of voices. No. But a lot of confidence. A big personality.
Speaker: Big personality. Great way to say it. A play on Broadway. Come on, Leanna. Tea for two and two for C, and me for you and you for me alone.
Speaker: Sear us to see us or hear us, no friends or relations on weekend vacations. You won't have it that we only telephone, no?
Speaker: Little Edie modeled for Macy's when she was like late teens, early 20s. Phelan and Big Edie separated in 1931. Big retained the house and got child support, but not alimony.
Speaker: In 1946, Phelan sent Big Edie a telegram from Mexico to tell her that they were officially divorced. And Big Edie got like a little bit of a trust out of that. I want to say $65,000, which I mean at the time was a a decent amount, but you know it wasn't comparable to the lifestyle that she had grown accustomed.
Speaker: No, no. For sure not. Little Edie lived in an apartment in New York City from 1947 1952, trying to make it as a model and an actress.
Speaker: But it didn't go well, and little Edie ended up moving back to Great Gardens in 1952 with her mother. But she told everyone that she had to go back to help her mother with the cats.
Speaker: Yeah, the the apartment she lived in was actually four aspiring models. It was called the Barbizon. Mm-hmm. I remember seeing those ads in magazines. I know. I do, too. Barbizon modeling. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, Little Edie did claim that she was moving back to take care of her mother. There were some other things going on in her life at the same Excuse me. Take care of the cats. And the cats. And the cats. Just the cats. She wasn't going back to take care of her mother. going back to take care of the cats. Okay. There was a lot of- little um So little Edie, I mean, again, she had been a stunning beauty and she began suffering in her twenties and thirties with hair loss. She had like alopecia and which is an autoimmune disorder. And eventually it got pretty serious in her thirties by 40. She um lost all body hair, including her,
Speaker: eye you know, eyelashes eyelashes, eyebrows. And we can assume that was very devastating to her. Yeah. They were, i mean, both really cared about how beautiful they were. And i would, you know, assume that starting to have any sort of hair loss that young also, it's a very, probably a pretty good reason that she may have decided to cut her time in New York City short. Yeah. It had to be a lot of trauma.
Speaker: Yeah. So little Edie would tell some tall tales about her love life. She once claimed that she had dated J. Paul Getty and that she had been engaged to Joe Kennedy Jr. as well.
Speaker: In reality, Joe and little Edie really only met one time. In 1961, at Jack Kennedy's inauguration, she told Joe Sr. that if Joe Jr. had lived, she would have become the first lady instead of Jackie. i wish I could see Joe Sr.'s face after she told him that.
Speaker: So let's talk about the home itself. Gray Gardens was a home in East Hampton, New York, designed by Joseph Greenleaf Thorpe in 1872. Okay.
Speaker: Big Edie and her husband, Phelan, bought the home in 1923. the name come The name of the home comes from the color of the surrounding sand dunes, the sea mist, and the concrete garden walls.
Speaker: Which find so interesting because I will say when I first heard the name, my assumption was... The name was introduced later as the home became dilapidated and quite honestly gray. Yeah, yeah. I always thought the same thing. But it was really supposed to be a a positive of the area. The house was, I think, about 6,000 square feet and a stunning home in of its day.
Speaker: Yeah, it was stunning. um So at this time, we we're getting into the 70s. Yeah, the women have been living together for like 15, 20 years. in a house that is much too large for them to maintain on their own and really becoming reclusive as the years go on.
Speaker: They didn't have the finances or the physical capability of maintaining the house. And i think you can best um compare it to like, it was kind of like what we would call a hoarder's yeah home. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, they were very attached to the things that would make up their memories, if that makes sense. Because then they would tell stories. They would pull an item out and tell the story about this time in their life and things like that.
Speaker: Well, in 1971 and 1972, the National Enquirer and New York Magazine released articles that revealed the state of the home and the conditions in which Big and Little Edie were living.
Speaker: After inspections had been carried out by the Suffolk County Health Department. The articles reported that the home was infested with fleas, had no running water, was filled with garbage, and was overrun with cats and raccoons.
Speaker: So the home itself was also really crumbling. Yeah. I mean, I later found out that um actually there was a, they had actually some fires in the house. They used a space heater um and to heat the room that they lived in and a Bunsen burner to cook their meals, which was quite dangerous. and So they did have some small fires in the house leaving gaping holes, which allowed the raccoons to come in
Speaker: huh They didn't seem to mind the raccoons and kind of took to treating them as pets of sorts and feeding them, which of course encouraged them. More of them. Yeah. The ladies actually ended up living in, you know although they have this big house, it was described as they almost had like a tunnel or a walkway that went through the house up to basically one bedroom, which they shared and lived in and didn't utilize much of the rest of the house. Yeah. So it seemed like they kept that space, although that space was also kind of falling apart. That was the space they they maintained more than anything else.
Speaker: So they could keep living there. Maintained maybe in. Maintained's maybe a ah big word for yeah for what they did. um So the inspections um that the health department carried out, the women called, the women called, quote, raids.
Speaker: So they're very territorial, if you can believe it. In 1972, Jackie Kennedy's sister, Lee Radziwillk, had contacted Albert and David Maisels to make a documentary about her life and childhood, which included a visit to Grey Gardens and interviews with her aunt and cousin, Big Edie and Little Edie.
Speaker: Hey, Nikki, before we go on, can I talk a little bit about Little Edie's brothers? Because there were other family members. Yeah. um And they did have opinions about ah documentary and information that was coming out. so Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So she had two brothers. One was named Phelan Jr. And he like was born in New York City. he was the middle child. So he was younger than little Edie.
Speaker: And grew up at Great Gardens. Both brothers did. um I mean, they had a pretty... Normal child. Well, okay, let's see. They had a pretty good childhood. They were educated at Westminster School for Boys in Simsbury, Connecticut.
Speaker: Oh, no way. Yeah. Side note, I was, grew up in Simsbury and my sisters all lived there and married their husbands in Simsbury, so... And yeah, my my dad was born and raised is there and married my mom. um But yes, there are some very high end private schools there.
Speaker: None of which are family ascended, by the way. No, but we drove by them a lot. know, and we always looked at them. always had to point them out. So um anyways, Phelan went on to attend Columbia University. He studied journalism. He was a member. um He graduated in 1944. He went into the military. He served in World War II.
Speaker: And after that, yeah he was based in Oklahoma. He married a woman there and ended up staying in the Oklahoma area. He was just employed as a Oklahoma Employment Security Commission. he was also a well-known writer and speaker.
Speaker: um He won hundreds of white writing contests. Here's where i he did somewhat follow in his mother's footsteps. In regarding to becoming a sort of actor, he um actually appeared later in life in television commercials for MCI Communications. Oh, interesting. Doesn't say in what capacity. It's a family full of stars. Yes. And I say this to kind of make a comparison. Yeah.
Speaker: to how big 80 and little 80's life turns out. Because we have to keep in mind, these brothers are out there. they He had another brother. There's a younger child. His name was Bouvier.
Speaker: um He was born in 1922. Same thing. Grew up Went to the same... private school in Connecticut. um He followed in his father's career path, so he went to Yale Law School. had a really successful career in New York City and created founded his own law firm. He got married in 1942. Phelan was his best man. Sadly, during his wedding, his mother, halfway through the ceremony, arrived dressed like an
Speaker: opera star. That's about right. Yeah, but I think it probably didn't go over too well with Phelan and his soon-to-be wife. But, so, again, successful.
Speaker: He went on to live, he like bought and resided in a historic 1906 Italian Renaissance style home on Long Island. So, you know, really close to where his great gardens was. yeah And then in fact, they even had a second vacation home in the Hamptons.
Speaker: fairly close to Grey Gardens. So he was in the vicinity. Yeah. It's said that he did try to persuade his mother to sell Grey Gardens. But controversially, both brothers actually refused to pay for the home's utilities and upkeep in order to encourage the women to leave the dilapidated mansion.
Speaker: I did know that, actually. I'd forgotten that. Yeah, it's kind of sad. um And yeah after the health department raided the mansion in 1971, they contacted feel and to to share the report of the inspection.
Speaker: Beal's response was, quote, you've described it very well, but it's nothing new. Mother is the original hippie. but The but brothers did go back to reluctantly paying the property back taxes, which is something, I guess.
Speaker: Yeah. That feels like a really Kennedy move. Like, that feels like a Joe Sr. move. does. doesn't it like i don't know it seems like they should have been a little bit more supportive yeah uh and finally i just one more thing uh feno beal he was the writer um after this uh documentary was made he wrote an article entitled the masonry brothers is that their name
Speaker: um it Like, it appeared in a magazine in actually Madison, Wisconsin. And in the article, he deplores the attention that his mother and sister were given at the time. And, but it's so mixed. He says, such heartbreak and degradation. Not the best publicity in the world for the family. Hmm.
Speaker: Eh. Again, kind of sounds like a Joe Kennedy senior kind thing. um He noted that he would see Grey Gardens, the documentary, out of curiosity, um but expressed disappointment, end quote, those two people who made the movie.
Speaker: But in the article, he did reminisce about the entertainment and the parties at the Grey Garden Estates when he was younger and a sister coming and his sister's coming out party at the Ritz-Carlton in New York City. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: He did lament that his father refused to pay his mother alimony and that there was a trust fund, but that trying to keep up with what they called the, he called the gray elephant gray gardens is what ruined.
Speaker: So yeah. One last thing about the brothers jumping ahead a bit, but both brothers actually died in the mid 1990s, which I find ironic because, um,
Speaker: As we will hear, little Edie went on to outlive them by about a decade. Yeah. So anyways, back back to you. I didn't mean to take that aside, but I found them very but interesting. That is so interesting.
Speaker: Well, let's get into the documentary part. In 1972, Radziwill...
Speaker: Jackie Kennedy's sister, had contacted Albert and David Maisels to make a documentary about her life and childhood, including a visit to Grey Gardens and interviews with her aunt and her cousin, Big and Little Edie.
Speaker: After filming some footage of this documentary about Lee, the project was scrapped. The footage would be recovered in 2017 and released as, ah I think it was a full documentary, but I can't remember, but it was called That Summer.
Speaker: So just a side note. So once the public found out about... um the state that their relatives were living in, people were mad that Jackie and Lee, and by extension of Jackie, the Kennedy family, would let people in their family live like this. So with that backlash and now their relatives facing eviction, Jackie and Lee funded the stabilization and repair of the home to ensure it met village codes.
Speaker: So whether Lee and Jackie did this to recover their family name from negative PR spin of allowing their family members to live this way, or if it was from the goodness of their hearts, we can't be sure.
Speaker: But beyond that, in 1974, the Maisels brothers returned to Great Gardens without Lee. And from there, they made a new documentary about Big Edie and Little Edie and their home.
Speaker: And the documentary was called Great Gardens. It premiered in 1975. In 1976, author Walter Goodman wrote that, quote, the film presents the Beals as a pair of grotesques. Why were they put on exhibition this way?
Speaker: Albert Maisels addressed this in 2014 in an article for the Hollywood interview. He said that the Beals were not exploited or mentally ill or anything like that. And their behavior in the documentary was about asserting themselves and maintaining control.
Speaker: And he he said that the pair were paid for the documentary and even had their own representation during contract negotiations. So the public saw Grey Gardens like both it was a hit, but also were like, this feels yucky. Like, are we taking advantage of people?
Speaker: are we like parading people around that like don't really understand, like is there mental illness playing into this that they don't necessarily understand what's happening? Like the it brought up questions.
Speaker: Albert said that Big Edie and lead Little Edie needed money, so they agreed to participate in the documentary. um Like I just said, this led to an ethical debate of how paying subjects impacts the work.
Speaker: Like how journalists don't pay subjects for their interviews. So paying a documentary participants questionable, which you just saw. ah What's called? You see everything. And that's in that, isn't it? Yeah, that's a whole subject that comes there. And then we could do a whole episode about that too. But I think so. I think it's crucial to realize that they did pay the ladies. Yeah.
Speaker: But they paid him about $5,000 each to participate in the documentary. And that's all they ever received. There was, like, no residuals or any additional money. Yeah. And we'll get into how much, like, there was other media, significant amount of media that spun off of this documentary. Yeah.
Speaker: but Yeah, we'll talk about it. But yeah, there was like not only dot documentary, but we'll hear about it. There was like an award-winning feature film and a Broadway, the Broadway musical. And combined, they made millions. yeah And the ladies ultimately like sold their life story for that $5,000. And I would assume that the Maisel's brothers... They probably got the royalties from like the musical and the HBO movie.
Speaker: Like I'm guessing they had the rights to the Grey Gardens documentary name. So they probably got the money is my guess. Yeah, I i agree. um i mean, I believe that the general consensus is that the ladies were taken advantage of.
Speaker: But that said, I mean, they viewed this largely as their opportunity to make their lifetime dream of staron of stardom come true.
Speaker: Yeah, they loved like the red carpet at the premiere and like they were treated like stars at the like when the movie premiered. So I don't know what to make of that. I don't know which way to feel. Yeah, I agree because it's almost like infantilizing them to be like,
Speaker: They didn't know what they were doing. You took advantage. But it's also truly a question, like, were they taken advantage of? And I and i don't believe they saw it in that light. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I don't either. So I didn't actually put this in my notes because why would I think to do that? um But you watched it, right? The documentary? Yes. Yeah. What do you think? It was interesting. um The way they filmed it, just to let everyone know, the gentleman filmed the documentary were embedded. It was a really bare bones project. um And they don't really talk in it. It it is just the video of of the two ladies on their daily life. I was just going to say, it's kind of like it's like a slice of life. Yep.
Speaker: It's type of unique, um but absolutely amazing. And this set of kind of changed the way that documentaries were made and presented. yeah um I think they have incredible one-liners that sometimes they didn't even know that they were being hilarious. And sometimes they were.
Speaker: I think they were real mean to each other. yeah it had a definitely interesting relationship of mean to each other. But at the same time, Love each other. It was an interesting mother-daughter relationship, to be sure.
Speaker: but I think they would have been a good time to hang out with. Oh, for without a doubt. Yeah. There is one other gentleman who is shown in this movie. um And again, i think he's worth a little aside about. um He was a young gardener.
Speaker: um And he his name was Jerry Torrey. Just little background. This guy was like a he left the home as like a young teenager. He was very abused. He was from Brooklyn. And he found work basically, you know, doing odd jobs and and gardening work. at at these East Hampton estates.
Speaker: He'd seen this like Grey Gardens, this crazy dilapidated home and was really taken by the huge vines that were like beginning to envelop the the house. And he was just interested, went to the door one day and knocked on it.
Speaker: um He was surprised because little Edie opened the door. he wasn't quite expecting that. And he, out of curiosity, he offered his gardening services at no cost. And he ended up befriending the ladies while helping them and helping them to maintain the mansion. He even lived there for a time. He was with them, I think, for a couple of years.
Speaker: uhuh Little Edie gave him the nickname the Marble Fawn, and it was a name he embraced throughout life. i forgot about that. Subsequent artistic career. It was said that she, upon opening the door on that that very first time, called him that name immediately, and it was never exactly understood why.
Speaker: So after his time at Grey Gardens, he worked as a gardener for the royal Saudi family. and Really? Yes. Oh, wait. Oh, wait. Oh, wait. And he operated at an art moving company. He drove a New York City taxi for 20 years and he became a recognized stone sculptor.
Speaker: He lived up to the name Marble Fong. He did. he did. And i mean, as you said, he was another person who, um who described in his opinion, neither woman suffered from mental disorders like um schizophrenia bipolar.
Speaker: As many kind of suggested he did. hu But here's one of the most important, interesting things I think is, is that what we learn is that Jerry actually shared a unique relationship with Aristotle, e Ari, Onassis, and Jackie's husband. Jackie's second husband. And while Torrey lived at the estate, he said Aristotle frequently called. Oh, wow. The mansion.
Speaker: Yeah. And he was... Torrey was like kind of really taken with these calls and he would, um he would sometimes listen on the other line. um And he like was really fascinated by <unk> Aristotle's heavy accent and would listen in. And he said that it was during this time in 1973 that Aristotle's son Alexander died in a plane crash.
Speaker: yeah Yet another pulling crush. Oh, we'll get to it in the Jackie episodes. All right. So he – and he frequently called the estate to talk to Mrs. Beale or Big Eddie. Edie.
Speaker: Big – sorry. Big Edie. Big Eddie's a truck driver. Sorry. It's fine. And she would console him on the phone. They would talk for up to three hours at a time. Wow. So they had a relationship.
Speaker: And then – Tori noted that Onassis, he deeply cared for Mrs. Beal, which had a large part of why, you know, he supported Jackie and her efforts and contributed the funds to clean up and r rehabilitate the the property. That's really good to hear because I hate Ari Onassis. Yeah, generally talking, not a good guy. And so, like, that in that's endearing.
Speaker: He has one endearing thing. quality Yes. Yes. No, I agree. And that's why I find this so shocking. Yeah. Now get this. It's called the interview that changed Jerry's life.
Speaker: After um Mrs. Beal passed away in 1977, he kind of grew to have a personal relationship with Ari Ari reached out to find him to find Tori and track him down and arrange a meeting and he yeah he actively sought him out and helped him planned the next phase of his life wow it was he who put him in touch with the royal Saudi Arabia family that he ended up working for And this changed, like this changed his life. So he went from this basically handyman gardener to making $1,700 week. oh my gosh. Saudi Arabia. Isn't that crazy?
Speaker: in In the 70s and 80s. Yes. Yes. um So Torrice did end up writing a book. I did not read that, but I would love to. I know. I would love to also. He did participate in some interviews, um,
Speaker: One of which was with First Lady's Library. okay So it was really interesting. I listened to the whole thing. um And he became really close, especially to Big Edie. Yeah.
Speaker: So there is a plot. There's like a plot line in the Grey Gardens musical. that he's like coming in between little edie and big edie like big edie's not giving little edie the same attention because she wants to hang out with jerry which i which is kind of where i was going he didn't have as positive a relationship with little edie but he didn't really go much into it but He hinted at at that.
Speaker: um Yeah. he He also did talk about his frustrations that the sons never came to their aid or visited, ah you know, despite being so close.
Speaker: He did attend Big Edie's funeral and was absolutely devastated and called it one of the worst days of his life. Oh, my gosh. Jerry. So, sorry about my – that was my little aside on Jerry, but such an interesting guy.
Speaker: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad we got a Jerry aside because I forgot to write anything about him in my notes. And im I'm fascinated by him. That is why we do this together. Exactly.
Speaker: um Well, Big Edie died in February 1977 of pneumonia. Little Edie remained in the home for another two years until she sold it to journalist and author Sally Quinn, and her husband, Washington Post editor Ben Bradley.
Speaker: Ben Bradley, we've spoken that name before on the podcast. He had once been married to Antoinette Pinchot, sister of Mary Pinchot Meyer. who was one of the affair partners of Jack Kennedy, who was murdered in 1964. Wow, that's hard that's hard to follow.
Speaker: but But everything's connected. Everything's connected. Ben was actually the person who found Mary's body. ah Oh, very interesting. yeah We talked about this. It was a not too long. It was in the Jack episodes before assassination, and I can't remember my life before we did the assassination episodes. I can't remember anything, um so...
Speaker: But there were so there was some like conspiracy theory stuff around that ultimately probably is not likely, but it is just it was weird timing and looked like like more cover up could be happening. But ultimately, it was just probably not. It was probably just a.
Speaker: Wrong place, wrong time. But Ben Bradley is the person who found her. Okay. Very interesting. So hopefully, I don't think connected to the fact that he and his wife bought the home. No, just a weird weird connection. The house was originally listed for ah half a million, $500,000. Again, let's remember, this was on a acre piece of land oceanfront in the Hamptons.
Speaker: um However... It was a prerequisite for selling the house that ah that it would not be knocked down by whoever bought it. Yeah. Which actually may have brought the price down because I had to find a buyer who would adhere to that. and Yeah. Little Edie wanted to make sure that somebody who, whoever lived here would love it.
Speaker: And want to care for the house and want to be there. Yeah. And so eventually she did sell the home for $220,000, which would be about a million dollars today.
Speaker: um So the couple did restore the home and the grounds. Yeah. And – they They owned it for a long time. They actually, it was, the property was last sold in 2017 and it was sold for $15.5 million. dollars <unk> And we'll actually talk about who owns it now yeah later. All right. but So after the house sold, Little Edie moved in with a friend in Southampton and then moved to Manhattan in 1980.
Speaker: She enjoyed a lively social life. She then moved to Florida where she frequented a gay bar on the beach called Torpedo.
Speaker: the bar would screen the documentary and then little Edie would give a live performance. Unfortunately, she eventually stopped the performance part of it at the behest of a relative who she would not name. Basically, somebody was embarrassed of her. That's really sad. so I know. She found this thing like These people who loved her and wanted to see her perform and like she had fun and then was asked to please stop. Yeah, that is really sad. Edie moved to Montreal after Jackie and her brothers died, fearing that the Kennedys had conspired against the Beals to end their lives.
Speaker: So she's starting to lose some touch with reality and started thinking. I think there's some paranoia setting in. Yeah, the Kennedys were after her. She then went to the San Francisco area, but ultimately ended up back in Florida.
Speaker: Around New Year's year's of 2002, friends of little Edie contacted her apartment complex after having not heard from her for a few days. Her body was found in her home on January 14th.
Speaker: She likely passed five days earlier from either a stroke or a heart attack. let it Let it be said. She lived a full life. Yeah. So she was 80 by the time she passed.
Speaker: Yeah. And it seemed like she had fun. It did. All right, one more side here, Nikki, and this is such a side. Okay, we didn't talk about Little Edie's fashion sense, and this is key to to understanding her personality. So she actually accidentally became a fashion icon through 1975, like through the documentary.
Speaker: And so she had super unique style. She would combine like upper crust lineage with inventive DIY resourcefulness. Born of living into this dilapidated East Hampton mansion. must remember she had lost all of her hair due to alopecia at this point. So she had a lot of really interesting head coverings and scarves.
Speaker: And she would always wrap her head daily in a different scarf, but she'd also use towels, sweaters, even bath mats. And then she would often secure them with a gold brooch. And they would coordinate with her outfits. Obviously, she did not go out shopping much. So she repurposed and improvised on materials. She would use like just even everyday household items, including like tablecloths, pillowcases, drapes, shower curtains, and American flags. And she would make these like makeshift wraps um and capes.
Speaker: She was said to have changed outfits up to 10 times a day and often at her mother's request. It seemed to be a form of entertainment for both of them, which could suppose would be a small pleasure that would come from an otherwise isolated life Yeah. Can I read her quote from the documentary? Please.
Speaker: This is the best thing to wear for today, you understand. I'm saying it in my head with the transatlantic accent, but it's going to be horrible if I tried to do that. So I'm just going to read it. And if I slide into it, just keep it to yourself.
Speaker: Okay. Because I don't like women in skirts, and the best thing is to wear pantyhose or some pants under a short skirt, I think. Then you can have the pants under the skirt, and then you can pull the stockings up over the pants underneath the skirt. And you can always take off the skirt and use it as a cape. So I think this is the best costume for today.
Speaker: Now, when she says that in the documentary, she is actually wearing this ensemble. And she's showing you. But I still do not fully understand what's going on with this outfit. No.
Speaker: But she loves it. um She actually called her daily looks costumes rather than outfits. And she would pair like tattered vintage like designer pieces from her youth, and including like this classic floral bathing suit that she would wear just kind of as daily wear. Mm-hmm. layered over other clothes she'd like with silk dresses and high heels with like safety pins and she'd like to knot the fabrics like on the skirts a lot and then would put on her signature or yes there's a song in the musical called the revolutionary costume for today At this point, we can pop that in if we can find it. The best kind of shoes to express bold views of strapless mules in assertive hues like fuchsia or peach, except on the beach, in which case you wear flats. When I stood before the nation at Jack's inauguration, in a high heel bump, I got the jump on Jackie's pillbox hats.
Speaker: Just watch it where you step.
Speaker: Later in life, Edie's eccentric style became like celebrated in fashion editorials. I think that's – but I also think that's why she was a hit at that gay bar. Yes. Oh, for sure. Because – She's so campy and loud with her clothing. I can't think of a better word. Exuberant maybe. Yeah, because she was actually widely embraced as an example like for self – for creative self-invention drag culture and then her unique design so yeah it was really neat and um there are on youtube there are also um other programs that just talk solely about her fashion sense and i would definitely recommend going and seeing those so you can see some of her styles they are amazing well and I think that's I don't know if I'll be able to phrase this correctly because I'm at the end of my 12 hour Adderall but I think that's one of like the high points of the documentary because and it's kind of like it's more evident in the movie the HBO movie that like in her early life it was all kind of about conforming to like a beauty standard that maybe she did enjoy but it just felt like In the 70s and moving on, she just like embraced who she was and what she wanted to wear and how she wanted to look.
Speaker: And i um I almost think that like maybe losing her hair gave her that freedom to kind of come into her own like that. yeah If that makes sense. It was really cool to watch her. And she was definitely very excited and proud of her costumes. Yes.
Speaker: Agreed. Me too. Well, in 2006, the Maisels brothers put the previously unreleased footage of the documentary on a two-disc DVD special edition.
Speaker: Now, this included the footage from Lee Radziwill that summer was included on this DVD set. So like that lost, quote unquote, lost footage That prompted the brothers to then go back and make the full documentary.
Speaker: Also in 2006, a musical called Grey Gardens premiered on Broadway. It is the first musical on Broadway to have been adapted from a documentary.
Speaker: The show starred Christine Ebersole and Mary Louise Wilson, who both won Tony Awards for their portrayals of Little Edie and Big Edie. Have you ever seen this musical in full? I've never seen it, but I know it. All right. I know every word of it.
Speaker: I never saw it. In 2009, HBO premiered a fictionalized film based on the documentary starring Jessica Lange as Big Edie, Drew Barrymore as Little Edie, Gene Triplehorn as Jacqueline Kennedy, and Daniel Baldwin as Julius Krug, who is a ne'er-do-well that Little Edie fell in with in New York City.
Speaker: The film flashes back and forth between Little Edie's life as a young woman and the 1975 filming and premiere of the documentary. The movie won six Emmys and two Golden Globes. but Have you also seen There's a Documentary Now, which is like a satirical program? um I think Bill Hader. totally forgot about it. Bill Hader and Fred Armisen star as the main characters in it.
Speaker: I've never seen it, and I meant to watch it before this and totally forgot. It's amazing, and I very much recommend you watching it. Okay. Yet one more um way this story has been memorialized.
Speaker: Yes. And I have a crush on Bill Hader. Oh, really? I have a crush on Fred Armisen. I love Bill Hader. Oh, hey. Look at us. That's why we work well together. I know.
Speaker: Well, let's get to um kind of the wrap up of the history of the house, I suppose. In 2014, current owner at the time, Ben Bradley, died, and his wife, Sally Quinn, said she was, quote, too sad to remain in the home.
Speaker: She rented it out until 2017. And in the process of renting it out, people would bring in their own stuff. And she was forced to sell the original furniture because she didn't have space to store it or like could afford to store it.
Speaker: ah That's like such an extensive collection. So, which I think is so sad unless you're a person who was able to like buy one of the pieces, then that's great. That wouldn't be sad. Yeah.
Speaker: Fashion designer, Liz Lang and her husband have owned the home since 2017. They have done extensive remodels on both the home and the gardens.
Speaker: yeah And that was, as we said, it was when they purchased it at that time, it was worth 15 or they purchased it for $15.5 million. They there's an architectural digest episode, which they do on the home and you've got to watch it. it's I'll try to link it in the show notes if I remember.
Speaker: I feel like I say that a lot, guys, and I never do it. It's stunning. Thank goodness Abiel insisted on the house not being leveled. And thankfully, the subsequent owners did try to maintain some of its architectural history and elements. And goodness knows how much that house is worth. And I feel like like i I was wondering how much...
Speaker: The current owners have, like, maintained the – like, what Little Edie wanted. But then I'm sitting here like that was the late 70s. They purchased it in the late 2010s. Like, that's a lot of – even with owners doing upkeep in it, I can't imagine how that house that, you know, kind of – it was – like its bones were already kind of caving in before it was restored. And I'm, so at first I was like, oh, it's so sad. I bet they've done, like the remodels have like changed it. And I'm like, they probably had to do a lot of that actually. and Yeah. I think it was, you know, the holes, the raccoons, ah the, as I say, there was bags of animal feces had been taken out. So I feel like they had to do quite a bit over the years. Yeah.
Speaker: All right, so back to our original premise of our of this series. Is this part of the Kennedy curse? How do you feel like this event and these sisters fall into that? So I think the Beals are not part of the Kennedy curse themselves. I think they have – I think they've gone down in history as beloved women.
Speaker: I agree. I think they were happy. i think they lived the life they wanted. And while externally it may not have been the life, the glamorous life that Jackie led, they lived everything on their own terms. and And they did not seem to feel as though they suffered. Now, I do think to the Kennedys, the Beals were a curse.
Speaker: I agree. And that's, I think, one of the – and even, quite honestly, to their sons. Mm-hmm. And I think that is the that is the sad part of the whole story. think if – I think in the the you know realm of the Kennedy curse, that's the curse is that these women were treated pretty badly by people in their lives because they were embarrassed of them. Yeah.
Speaker: And – ah Yeah, that would be my, that's, I think that is how they fit into the quote unquote curse is they were too much for the Kennedys. i agree.
Speaker: I don't know. that was an awesome ah That was an awesome episode. I love that. I love this this story. Yes, I do too. And I really think they were just like, exactly what he said.
Speaker: They ended up doing things on their own terms. And i just, I also think, At that time, like the 50s, 60s, these are two women living by themselves. And it's taken decades for full appreciation of who they were and what they did. But yeah I do believe they have gotten it.
Speaker: Yes. Agreed. This was a fun one. Yep. So just for an idea of what the next couple episodes will look like, we're going to finish – this generation of Kennedy children. So we've done Joe, we've done Jack, we've done Bobby, we've done Rosemary, we've done Ted.
Speaker: Who am i missing? We did ah my favorite Kennedy kick. So that's six to count. um So we're going to wrap up with, um and I think it'll be ah an episode each, Eunice and then Jean and then finally Pat. Okay.
Speaker: And then we'll be done with this generation. So that's what we're looking forward to. All right. Very exciting. Well, we will talk to you guys all next week. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker: All right. See you later. Bye.
Speaker: you
