Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I have ADHD. Joy is autistic and we are letting our hyper fixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Kennedy curse.
Speaker: Music
Speaker: Welcome back, everyone. Hello. It's nice to be back. Yeah, it's we haven't recorded in a little while. um we finished up the ah RFK episodes, and then I did a little, like, ah breaking news mini-sode about the Kennedy Center And I actually, i don't even know if I told you this, I took everything I had researched like for the series and like presented it in that episode. Because it was a little bit of like the history of the Kennedy Center. So I just like, was like, you know what I'm just going to take this chunk of the script and move it here and then put in all the news that's happening about it right now.
Speaker: Yeah. Very cool. And there's plenty of news going on there. So yeah. All right. So today, ted Kennedy. Yep. yep We're starting the final Kennedy male sibling.
Speaker: Yeah. Ted, wouldn't they call him the lion of this of the Senate? Yeah. Yeah. So Ted was the youngest of the Kennedy children, right? Yep. He is the youngest not only of the boys but of all the children. Okay. And he is big baby of the family energy.
Speaker: Yeah. And yeah, let's get into it. All righty. As always, our sources are listed in the show notes. Edward Ted Kennedy was the youngest child of Rose and Joe and the longest living Kennedy son. He served as senator from Massachusetts from 1962 to 2009 when he died.
Speaker: He and his first wife, Joan, had three children. He married his second wife, Victoria, in 1992, and they stayed together until his death. Ted could never quite reach the political expectations that his father had laid on him after the deaths of his three brothers.
Speaker: Ted was characterized as the black sheep amongst his brothers. He was the screw-up sibling with the history of heavy drinking, philandering, and the Chappaquiddick controversy.
Speaker: Jack's charm and Bobby's intensity worked against Ted, and the nation's collective memory of both men made Ted look worse. He appeared to pale in comparison to them, but was cursed to always have to evoke their memories. Despite this, he was beloved by his sisters and his brother's wives, stepping up as a father figure for Jackie and Ethel's children after the loss of their own father.
Speaker: So we can see the start of ah some of his troubles when in 1951, he was a freshman at Harvard and he was really interested in football more so than studies.
Speaker: Shocker for a Kennedy. Yeah. ah He actually arranged for a friend to take his spring Spanish exam, and he was caught cheating and expelled from the school for two years. During that time, he served as a military police officer in Paris yeah at the arrangement of his father.
Speaker: Oh, so such a good punishment. wow So years later, um while he was a law student at the University of Virginia, he was arrested for reckless driving after a police chase. So yeah.
Speaker: um But yeah I read something interesting. um Author by the name of Edward Klein um had written about five books about the Kennedy family. Yeah. One of them is in my show notes, The Kennedy Curse, I think. but Yeah. The Kennedy Curse is in the show notes. Okay. Perfect. Yeah. He yeah at one point said, there's something in the very nature of public achievement that brings with it the risk-taking behavior. People who cheat on exams, probably there's something in them that wants to get caught.
Speaker: And that just seemed to me like, you know, we talk about it with you know cheating on exams, but it seems to me like that might be um a recurring aspect of Ted Kennedy's behaviors. Yeah.
Speaker: ah Especially his behaviors with women, too, which we'll get into. But... um Also, so in 1990, just speaking of which, Gentleman's Quarterly, there was an expose written on Kennedy's drinking and womanizing um with girls in their 20s. the piece recounted a number of embarrassing incidents, including one in which Kennedy was allegedly discovered by a restaurant waitress.
Speaker: having sex with a female lobbyist on the floor of the of a private dining room. And the check showed that they had ordered two bottles of Chardonnay for lunch.
Speaker: Oh, shocking. so Gross. But when we start talking about curse and tragedies... um I think one of the most significant at this point. So on June 19th, 1964, actually, the United States Senate passed the Civil Rights Act and Kennedy ah was there um in the Senate and he voted in favor of it.
Speaker: After the vote, he rushed to the airport and boarded a small chartered plane. maybe know where this is going, right? He was 32 years old.
Speaker: um And so he was two years into his first term as a U.S. senator. Like, it was a special election. um And that day, he was actually running late. He was going to Springfield, Massachusetts, to accept the nomination for the full term um in the Senate right at the Democratic Convention. And I think it's also important that it was only seven months after Jack's death. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah This was this was a rough time. Yeah.
Speaker: ah So, yeah, on his way to the Democratic Convention on the flight with him um were also like the convention's keynote speaker, Senator Birch Bay of Indiana. Bay's wife, Marvella, um a legislative assistant, Edward Moss, and course of course, a pilot, Edwin Zimney.
Speaker: Sadly, they never made it to Springfield. It was a foggy evening and three miles from the runway, the plane flew too low and hit some trees and crashed in an orchard. Edward Moss, the aide, and Edwin Zimney, the pilot, didn't survive. They died on impact. Just sounded like you were thinking Jiminy Cricket. Okay, I knew I was trying it really hard to say it right. Okay.
Speaker: The Bays escaped serious injury, in fact. um And so ah Mr. Bay helped his wife get from the plane and then he returned.
Speaker: he Yeah, he actually, he pulled her from the wreckage. Yeah, and he went and then he went back yeah um and pulled Kennedy also out. Yeah. Do you think knowing the Kennedys that afterward, Ted was like, why didn't you get me first? I was totally thinking that. was totally thinking that.
Speaker: good for Good for him for taking his care of his wife first, though. Yes. However, I mean, he very well may have the the fuel did catch on fire, and so he did get him out in time. So he he very well yeah oh may have saved his life. So Kennedy was alive, but he was in bad shape. He had...
Speaker: Broken three vertebrae, two ribs, and had a collapsed lung. And we just can't forget that at this time, Ted's older brother and sister had already both died of plane crashes.
Speaker: And his brother, you know JFK, had just been assassinated, like you said, seven months earlier. This was a tragic time. Yeah. It's, oh, yeah. Bobby actually after news broke, Bobby spoke to a reporter and said, quote, there are more of us than there than there is trouble. The Kennedys intend to stay in public life. Good luck is something you make. Bad luck is something you endure. Yeah, it's a it's a it's an amazing quote.
Speaker: i don't know. Bobby just always sort of had. Yeah, he's he was a good quote, good speaker. Okay, so after this, so Kennedy was hospitalized, you like in rehab also for five months. I mean, he was in like a full body cast at one point. Yeah. He's later said, i never thought that the time was lost. I tried to put my hours to good use. I had a lot of time to think about what was important and what was not ah and um what I wanted to do with my life. I think I gained something from those six months that will be valuable for the rest of his life.
Speaker: Maybe gain something, but still had some trouble going on in his future life. so Still had room to grow. so this was the first close call. And it really did bear chilling, you know, parallels to the unlucky members of the family that came before him and and did not survive playing accidents.
Speaker: so let's keep in mind though, at this time he was, he was set to start his full Senate campaign. um and obviously he was fully out of commission for months. So, um, we'll talk about it little bit more later, but Joan, his wife yeah really stepped up and, and helped him and became a surrogate during this time on the campaign. And I don't think that can be yeah understated how important that was to to him gaining, as we will find out, gaining the seat. and
Speaker: Yeah. And ah Joan is a bit of a tragic character in the history of the Kennedy family. So I will take any opportunity to praise her. We can.
Speaker: And she fully, fully deserves it because this was a very difficult time in her life. Just remember all the tragedies that came right before it. It was a difficult time in her life, and I think it took her – took a toll on her. Yeah. Not to mention she had three kids, right, at the same time, an ailing husband um and a political campaign. and ah So this is a time when we'll find out that some of her struggles ah with substance and – began yeah during time of high-pressure school. Really ratcheted up to – or started the the ratcheting up.
Speaker: Yep. Yeah. so All right. Because I try to do things in chronological order, we're going to talk about Chappaquiddick. So Chappaquiddick, I never fully understood exactly where Chappaquiddick was or what – you know, like you've heard about this all these yeah years.
Speaker: I never fully got the logistics of it. So I just, I'm going to just give a little bit of background before we get into the controversial. Okay, great. Before we get into the tragic part of it, I guess. what What was going on? Listen, I knew so little about it. When my mom and I went to the movie theater to see the movie, I couldn't say Chappaquiddick.
Speaker: The entire time i was like, Chattaquipick. And my mom would be like, Chappaquiddick. I mean, it's what I'm saying. Chattaquipick. Chattaquipick. It's not easy to say. But i sometimes it was one of those things you you know you hear about your whole life. um That's what's kind of fun about this podcast. But then just going in and researching and i'm like, sometimes it's a little stuff that I totally didn't get that yeah is interesting. so So anyway, so Ted Kennedy also says a little bit about his life and what their life was just like on a day-to-day basis, right? So he had arranged this trip to Martha's Vineyard. And there was like this annual Edgar town yacht club regatta, which was a sailing competition and the ah Kennedy family had participated in it for decades. So that's why they went out there. So he arrived to race his sailboat, the Victoria, um,
Speaker: Interestingly enough, his later wife in life will be named Victoria, but coincidence, I'm sure. ah The family had skipped the previous year's regatta due to the assassination of Ted's older brother, so Robert Kennedy, in June of 1968. So never missing the chance to have a party.
Speaker: um To coincide with the regatta, Ted Kennedy and his cousin Joseph Gargan hosted a private cookout and like a reunion party.
Speaker: They rented this, actually Joe rented this, little cottage, Lawrence Cottage, in a secluded house that was rented on this Chappaquiddick Island. So, like, we're already on Martha's Vineyard, which is an island of itself, right? And then Chappaquiddick is this even smaller island yeah off the shore from Martha's Vineyard. It's accessible only by very Okay.
Speaker: so and i mean when we talk about ferry and you look at pictures okay we're not talking major fairs we're talking pretty rickety fairies but it did carry cars so cars could go on this fery um right is important so the party was a reunion to honor what they called the boiler room girls um and it was a nickname given to this six young unmarried women who had worked closely on Robert F. Kennedy's presidential campaign. Now they were, I mean, I feel like, don't know, the the name seems a little bit degrading, but i i they were actually political strategists. And think they were called that because like they were like hot commodities, not in the physical sense, but that they were,
Speaker: They were – and when we talk – we get into Mary Jo, we'll talk about it a little bit more. But they were all super smart, super driven. Right. Bobby relied on this group of women.
Speaker: For his campaign and and not in any way that was not any like it was a professional. He needed these women to write. And i i I think that gets lost. Yeah, history. maybe Absolutely. These weren't just like fans who are following him. These were like career women driven, strategic. They were vital to the campaign.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. And part of the other reason they were there was Ted wanted to convince them to work on his upcoming campaign. I mean, I'm sure there's multiple reasons he that he specifically brought these six young women, but bet it was ah in part. He recognized how smart they were. Yeah. Yeah. Just because they're all so hot, whatever. Two things can be true.
Speaker: The guest list was just limited to 12 people. Six women, six men. um So there was Mary Jo Kopechny, which we will hear about. She was 28 at the time. Lady named Rosemary Kieff, Esther Newberg, Susan Tannenbaum, and like two sisters, Nancy and Mary Ellen Lyons.
Speaker: We will learn a little bit that they the these the other women had really little to say. They kind of tried to Stay out limelight yeah after we learn what what happened. So there was also six men. ah Ted was 37 at the time. His cousin, who was also kind of raised as his like surrogate brother. Yep. And I think is an interesting character in and of himself. Yeah, very much so.
Speaker: I think ah in the movie, Ed Helms plays him and it's like the greatest casting. Yes. I feel like it's so accurate. but Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. No, he plays him very well. So and that was his name was Joseph Gargan.
Speaker: Kind of like they raised like kind of like the family sort of adopted him. But he was it was clearly that he was not yeah eight one of them. He was and kind of worked a little bit as like almost a fixer assistant a little bit to um Ted. And I feel like Ted reminded him of his place. um ah There was another gentleman, Paul F. Markham, who was actually a former U.S. attorney. I find that very interesting that, yeah.
Speaker: And two others, Charles Tretter and Raymond LaRosa. But there was another gentleman named Jack Crimmins there. And I think he was a Kennedy employee. And he was actually Kennedy's chauffeur.
Speaker: So I find it really interesting. Interesting. Okay. You know, as we'll go on to learn in a driving accident, that Kennedy actually brought a chauffeur with him, which to me says Kennedy's aware that he might have to have, I mean, designated driver of some sort. I don't know. um yeah Or maybe he just always traveled with, yeah I don't know, an employee or assistant. But very interesting that he had a chauffeur there with him.
Speaker: And again, this is like a tiny little island. I mean, Chappaquiddick, this is, it it's little. It's little. I mean, Martha's Vineyard's not huge. and And yeah, this is just like a couple miles wide. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I just imagine, so my best friend growing up, we're still super close today. ah Her family has a huge, amazing, beautiful summer house um on the Thousand Islands. And it's one of the islands that only can is accessible via boat.
Speaker: And it is so small. I think there's like maybe three, four, five houses on it. And like a little tiny post office area for you can go once we can get your mail. But it's so small. There's not roads.
Speaker: It's just like you walk everywhere. wow And so that's what I kind of the vibes I get. Like, obviously, Chappaquiddick's a little bit bigger if we have cars. But that's yeah just what I envision every time I talk about. is that is a thousand island Is that in New York or is that Massachusetts?
Speaker: No, it's in New York. It's on the border of Canada. Okay. Oh, sounds really nice. It's amazing. I'll send you the wedding pictures. Oh, my God. the island. And I grew up going there. Oh, but I do feel like you're right. That that is exactly how I picture it also. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: All right. But anyways, so this evening starts as something fun and celebratory. don't know if they won the sailboat race. i'm not quite sure about that. But yeah, I can't remember.
Speaker: actually read it somewhere and I die i have no memory of no i don't if they did or not. But the evening then did take a very tragic turn and one that would forever impact Ted's life.
Speaker: Yeah. So before we get in too far to that, let's talk specifically about Mary Jo Kopechny. i love saying her name, by the way, Mary Jo Kopechny. It is a great name. It is a great name.
Speaker: And I've never heard that last name anywhere else. Neither. So as you said, Mary Jo had been working on Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign. She actually really didn't like Ted.
Speaker: She really admired Jack, but she absolutely adored Bobby. So she even babysat his kids and spent time at the family farmhouse in Virginia. And she got she formed this like tight bond with Bobby Jr. oh interesting. So she babysat for Bobby Kennedy and yeah, at those kids, which there was a yeah whole handful of them.
Speaker: Yeah. So actually, Ethel had even suggested to Mary Jo that she come on and work with that work for them as a nanny because Ethel really liked her. Okay. And Mary Jo declined because she was ambitious of her own career.
Speaker: She had been the first woman from her family to graduate college, and she was – wanted She didn't want to get kind of stuck in like this nanny position that she probably would have really liked and they would have paid her decently and then just gotten like complacent in that. Right, right.
Speaker: That's awesome. She called Bobby, quote, the answer. Bobby and Mary Jo had been so close that they that some had wondered if they were having an affair She idolized him, but there is no evidence of anything ever happening romantic.
Speaker: I don't even think she had, like, a crush on him or anything like that. It was just, like, she believed in him. Pure admiration. Yeah. And I think as much as she was proud of that campaign, I think she was hesitant. that's She was hesitant to move forward on any campaigning for Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Mary Jo worked her way up in Bobby's campaign despite her male counterparts making double what she was. She had this – she's just like a really kind person and I think a lot of people can resonate with this, that she struggled to learn how to help people and be there for people while also protecting herself.
Speaker: She was a devout Catholic with those close to her saying that she even had a fear of sex or anything sexual. She was really fun and she loved to go out and dance with her friends, but she was young and naive. Mary Jo had been at the Ambassador Hotel the night Bobby was shot.
Speaker: And after that, she had said she never wanted to be in Washington, D.C. without him and was certainly not interested in working for Ted in any way, especially after the assassination.
Speaker: So let's move on to the evening of July 1969, where The group of women campaign workers, the boiler room girls gathered with some other older male loyalists to collectively be together and mourn Bobby.
Speaker: Mary Jo had called her mother on the way to Chappaquiddick to tell her that she had just been offered a good-paying job at a political consulting firm. As the day turned to night, the party went from, you know, ah gathering, mournful, reflecting, having laughs together, memories, things like that.
Speaker: Things went a little bit wild with drugs and alcohol and everyone being highly emotional. Sometime in the night, Mary Jo ended up in a car.
Speaker: I believe it was Ted's car. There are conflicting stories about how she managed to be in this car. There was some, like, rumors also, unverified, that some of the other men, or at least one of the other men on the trip, was, like, going to use his time away to sneak off and see his girlfriend. um There was even, you know, questions about possibly Ted was there and he was going to see another lady friend, but all that's never really been substantiated. So we don't know exactly.
Speaker: Just kind of strange that it was like six older men and yeah six young, vibrant young men. Right. It's, it is suspicious might be too hard of a word, but if I were one of those six women, I would notice that there are also six male counterparts. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Not a great look for a group of political years elites. So there were conflicting stories about how Mary Jo ended up in Ted's car that night.
Speaker: Ted would later say that she asked him to drive her to her hotel. So I can just expanding on that a little bit. Yeah. They, um ah Joe set up these hotels. the the The cottage they stayed in was just like a little two bedroom. So the others stayed in hotels that were like in Edgerton, which remember you had to take the ferry back and forth from Edgerton to get to this little island Chappaquiddick. And,
Speaker: Ted and some of the others were set to be in one hotel. And then the ladies were all booked into a separate hotel, but they would need to get back to the ferry dock and take the ferry back to the island. And the last ferry, um, did go at midnight, ran till midnight without, you know, beyond that, I guess you could make a special request, which might,
Speaker: doubt it or my my i i don't doubt that ted wouldn't have no problem uh but yeah so that was just kind of the logistics of the area okay so mary joe's friends claimed that she just climbed into the car to take a nap after being in the sun all day and probably drinking all night and they think this because her purse and hotel room key had been left behind in the cottage which sort of makes sense yeah Yeah, we talked a little bit before we started recording, and I was like, this is fully what college Nikki would do. oh yeah. Is like beach be like drunk and partying and then be like, but I'm done now. yeahp I'm going to sleep here. yeah And I need to get away from everybody. Yeah. yeah
Speaker: And I don't know. His car may have been the only car there at the time. i don't know how the others all arrived. Because again, you had to take the car via the ferry. Yeah. over to the island. So my guess is that was the only car they had with them. So that that does seem like a logical possibility.
Speaker: Yeah, I think so too. I'm sure the rest of the people all arrived just via the ferry. Yeah, especially in a little two-bedroom cottage where, you know, there's probably not anywhere to go. And then Teton, his ah chauffeur, brought the car with them on it.
Speaker: Yeah. So somehow Ted ended up in the driver's seat taking Mary Jo to the ferry. at least that it was his claim.
Speaker: Right. Right. ah Ted was very intoxicated. He was driving well over the speed limit. And we're talking like turny roads, like curves.
Speaker: Somebody had to know how to drive those roads in the dark. Yeah, because mean, there's certainly no streetlights out there. Right. Right. But at the same time, it's just like three miles. It's like, again, it's right not a big island. But yes, I'm sure there's some pretty desolate back roads for those three miles. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. And I don't mean to keep harping on this, but I don't think it can be like overly stated that like, why was Kennedy himself driving that night?
Speaker: ah Yeah. So it's just odd because, i mean, he did have John Crimmins, his chauffeur, with them. And he, Ted rode very rarely throughout the rest of his life, even drove himself.
Speaker: especially at that time. As for why he offered to drive Mary Jo back, she you know the the claim was that she wasn't feeling well and wanted to ah a ride back to her hotel hotel. Kennedy testified later that he didn't want to bother Crimmins or the other guests for a ride because they were concluding their meal and enjoying their fellowship, and it didn't appear necessary to require them to bring
Speaker: him back to Edgar Town. Let's keep mind, it was 11, so I don't, this was a late meal, I guess. Yeah. But also, like, the Kennedys never cared about inconveniencing their staff. yeah Even more so. Yeah, no, no, I think that that is, that really seems very...
Speaker: heat to me but yeah um i'm just thinking about how much we talked about ethel like slapping her staff right right and again you go to the effort of bringing a chauffeur to with you to this remote island presumably he knows why he's there to chauffeur to chauffeur yeah And presumably, i don't know, maybe I'm overreading, but I feel like maybe Ted knows he may have, so he may need to avoid the whole drinking and driving and probably knew he would be, I'm guessing, under the influence of some substances or whatever. So my guess as to why Ted was driving with Mary Jo in the car is because he thought he could
Speaker: seduce her or wanted something to happen between the two of them. Now, I don't think like when we get to the car accident, I don't think it was like intentional or anything, but I imagine because of her devout Catholicism, she rebuffed him and that probably bothered him. Yeah, it that might not it does seem like maybe he and that's where I guess it gets confusing with the whole like her asleep in the car. I mean, there there's some definitely mixed information. But i yeah I tend to agree with you that he had, ah you know, he had they were going to quote unquote be parking. Yeah.
Speaker: Interesting to note, so that evening, um their car was seen, like, pulled over on the side of the road. And a police officer came by and thought it looked a little suspicious, wanted to make sure they weren't having car problems. So drove up, pulled up behind them, and approached the car on foot.
Speaker: He could see that there was a man and a woman sitting in the in the car. But before he reached them, the car screeched off, pulled off quickly and kind of peeled out and left. So he never actually spoke to them, but definitely did see them and identified that it was a black Oldsmobile that was being driven and that there were two people in it.
Speaker: He did say that the car went on and he saw it head in the direction of What we'll ultimately find out is ah like this dirt road um that connects with what's called the Dyke Bridge, which will become relevant. It was a road that was heading toward kind of a beach area, but you have to go over a bridge. So he did note to that that that he was driving in that direction. The police officer actually was off duty, so he kind of let it go. didn't pursue it yeah further.
Speaker: But it is one of the ah noted accounts and testified that that that is what he saw that night. So to be clear, he never at actually interacted with them, so he there wasn't he he doesn't know if Kennedy was actually...
Speaker: drinking alcohol or under the influence. I'm going to venture guess, though, pure speculation that that he probably was. Yeah, I would guess that.
Speaker: And that he was fearful of my guesses. That's why he may have pulled away and kind of ran from maybe not ran from the scene, but drove off was because he did not want to be caught driving with alcohol in his system.
Speaker: Yeah, that would that actually makes a lot of sense. But that's purely just speculation. So as Ted was driving, he was going toward the dock where the ferry would be. He drove into the water and the car ended up landing in the water upside down.
Speaker: So he claimed he just like made a wrong turn. Yeah, yeah. So when like you'd go straight to basically go to the ferry and then there was like this turn off to this station.
Speaker: dirt road which you know as i said and had a bridge on it and there was no guard rail rails yeah because it's small i think the movie does a really good job of showing like the area and the the scenery and the landscape of it all because it's like you hear a fairy docks and it's like it it it's not i don't know you know it's a wooden dock you know it's a little wooden dock um I wish we could put, I wish, well, I guess maybe we could post a picture. I know this is when I can't stand that we're a podcast and we can't show people, but yeah, you can there's some good pictures. Yeah. It's this little wooden dock, this little kind of rickety fairy.
Speaker: But yeah. So then there's this bridge. Now, the other thing that is really interesting that I didn't fully understand, this isn't like deep water. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's, it's, Maybe at the point they drove over the edge six to eight feet deep. And it's like mucky water. yeah so i mean, because it's kind of like a stagnant area. um And so so we drove over the edge, but the car like would have sunk slowly into the muck. Yeah.
Speaker: And as i just think that's really important to remember this. Yeah. Ted said that Mary Jo had been in the passenger seat. He was able to escape relatively quickly because he was such a strong swimmer.
Speaker: He later said that he tried over and over to get Mary Jo out, but he had to give up and leave. Now, I did read one, like, conspiracy theory. And I don't think this is true, but there was an entire book written about somebody who believes that he was really in the car with one of the other ladies and that Mary Jo had truly fallen asleep in the back.
Speaker: i don't know. I don't really buy this. And so... Yeah. Yeah. So that when he was driving, like, he was protecting her so she could get out and leave. And um it doesn't quite make sense to me.
Speaker: Yeah. And that's, like, really stretching to make Ted a hero. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. So he ended up somehow back on the main island where his hotel was.
Speaker: He just went to bed. He but got to his hotel and I think changed his clothes and maybe showered and went to bed. He hadn't didn't let anyone know what happened. So once Ted's crew, Ted's squad, ah fit figured out where he was, they all said even that next morning they could smell alcohol on his breath.
Speaker: Immediately, Ted's fixers descended on the scene to try to find Mary Jo. how do you think he got back to the island. ah To the mainland.
Speaker: and you have anything name I Oh, to the mainland? Swam. He said he swam. like Yeah. The movie shows, like, the his friend's flashlightsers, like, taking a rowboat and rowing him back. But, like, obviously then they would be accomplices. Yeah.
Speaker: Thoughts? Yeah. I have no idea. my My thought when we were first talking about this a little bit was – There is that Kennedy thing of, like, focusing on something and then you have to do it. And so in my mind, especially a very drunk, goof-up-of-the-family Ted Kennedy – being bound and determined to get to the mainland. To save himself. I mean, to so I could kind of, but, and also with the adrenaline pumping. I can see him. I can see him swimming. It would be, a it was a not a long swim, but a substantial swim. And I think he did play it up to be a little bit like he almost drowned on the, on the way. oh yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: So, and like I said, if again, according to the movie, the two, like Joe and, the other gentleman with them, rode him back in a rowboat. But that would make them even involved. think in the movie it's like either they found him at the dock or he like ran back and got them to come with him. went back and yeah.
Speaker: So they started trying to fix things immediately that night. But i don't I don't know for sure. I don't think, yeah yeah. And I don't think we ever will. No, of course not. So during, you know, at the scene, Ted asked the people with him why he couldn't say that Mary Jo had been the one driving, not him. So when he realized that he was not going to get away with saying she was driving, he then changed his story to say that she was asleep and he didn't know she was there in the backseat.
Speaker: I wonder at that point what he said he was, why he was, if he didn't know what why why she was in the backseat, what was he doing? Right. Where was he going? like He wanted to go back to the hotel, so he drove. Yeah, didn't didn't mention that to anyone. Right.
Speaker: Had enough of the partying. So, you know, the other thing that we'll never know is exactly how he got out and what he tried to do.
Speaker: Yeah. To get her out. Yeah. You know, I get that he was a strong swimmer. And some do speculate. So the car like flipped over upside down. So there would have been a lot of disorientation about where they were. And so some speculation is that he had his hands on the wheel. So he had something to kind of ground him so that kind of like leverage. Yeah. And he yeah so that he it oriented himself.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, yeah. And I do you believe the driver's side window was open, but they don't fully know how he even got out or... Yeah.
Speaker: yeah I mean, and I know there's physics related to opening car doors, but... ah You have to – like part of the car was sticking out. It was not completely submerged. Right.
Speaker: Right. Just seems like maybe – I mean in in history, I think this went down. There was something he could have tried harder. There's more he possibly could have done. I think – I very much think that too.
Speaker: Well, after, you know, Ted changed the story a couple times, he then pivoted to try to get his cousin and loyal support supporter Joe Gargan to take the blame. As you mentioned earlier, Joe had been raised by Ted's parents after Joe's own parents died.
Speaker: Ted called Mary Jo's parents, Gwen and another Joe, before he even reported himself to the police station. Mary Jo's mother, Gwen, answered, and Ted asked to speak to Joe, and she said that he wasn't home.
Speaker: So Ted just kind of said, okay, never, goodbye, and hung up without giving any information. So he didn't even tell Gwen that anything had happened. He just called and was looking for her dad and then was like, okay, bye.
Speaker: And I think he was – there was some cowardice involved. I mean – Yeah. And fear and – Yeah. Empathy, I'm sure, in having to say it. So the diver who pulled Mary Jo's body out was named John Farrar.
Speaker: He said that she would have been alive for at least an hour after the accident. But she was breathing her own air over and over. so there was like an air bubble because the car hadn't gone, wasn't completely submerged. There was an air bubble that she could have drawn air from.
Speaker: Yeah. but But she would have eventually suffocated due to rocks. She was breathing in her own carbon dioxide. Yeah. Which is just horrifying. ah you and they and that you know some At one point he even said it could have taken her three to four hours to die yeah in that circumstance. And he said that if if Ted had gotten help immediately, she would have been saved.
Speaker: It took him 25 minutes to remove get her body out of the car once he was there. Yeah. so She would have been saved. So after the fact, Ethel was selected by the family to be the person to call Mary Jo's parents.
Speaker: So the family obviously held a funeral. And Ted showed up to Mary Jo's funeral. And he was wearing a neck brace that he didn't need. was awful. If you see the pictures...
Speaker: but made worse by the fact, in my opinion, that he tried to put a tie around the outside and just looked like a fool.
Speaker: I just looked, it was, you know, it was, it was terrible. Um, it was also said that like upon, ah after the accident, the first phone call he made was to his girlfriend, um,
Speaker: To get the number of, um like, of his fixer and attorney. Oh. Which is so funny, like, to think back. to Remember those days when we had to just get phone numbers?
Speaker: Mm-hmm. It seems like such a weird thing, but, yeah, I guess he'd have to, you know, so he was at a pay phone. I know, right? Calling her to get this number so he can get in contact with the people he ends up knowing are going to have to step in. and Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Cover his butt. My goodness. Yeah. Well, the at the funeral, his wife, Joan, was basically forced to attend. um She was on bed rest because due to her pregnancy, she had just recently had two miscarriages before this pregnancy. So she was the doctors had forbidden her from flying, wanted her on complete bed rest.
Speaker: Ted said that her not being there would bolster rumors that he and Mary Jo had been having an affair. And when we talk about Joan's role in Ted's life, this is a pattern she once again had to fix his image.
Speaker: She would, after the funeral a month later, go on to lose this pregnancy as well. The whole situation is a terrible situation. But I do agree her not being there would have... Oh, fully.
Speaker: Not only that, but feeling ah like maybe a little bit of disrespect for the family. I mean, I do feel like she... it was probably very important for optics for her to be by her side. And I suspect she was just a loving person who, you know, would want to show her empathy for this woman in her life and yeah and the celebration. of her life Yeah.
Speaker: But like in, in a 2009 book, Kennedy did deny that he was having any sort of romantic a affair with Yeah. capecni and there isn't real evidence that suggests otherwise now that doesn't mean that that night there was not a he was not planning a little dalliance but um as far as like a true extramarital affair yeah it was there's no there's no proof that heat that was actually happening I don't think Mary Jo would have allowed anything.
Speaker: I don't think she did allow anything. she I don't think she was that sort of – no. um So the the people that Ted mostly talked to about what happened were – Ethel, Bobby's wife, Rose, his mother, and his own wife, Joan. One of the first things that Rose asked was why Ted had been in a car alone with a woman who was not his wife and that he should have known better.
Speaker: Should have. Yeah. ah The Boiler Girls really never spoke to the Kopechnies or really anybody about the party that night um outside of like their official testimony, which said that she, Mary Jo, had left between 11 and 11.15.
Speaker: um But off the record, it seemed like everybody kind of had a different memory or even so version of the story, which makes sense because everybody was drinking. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: I think now years ago, ah least one of them had made some public statements. um What it was, was a group of people all dedicated to a common purpose who had gone through common experiences, common losses, joining together in a social occasion, which we had done many times before.
Speaker: And um something happened, horrible happened. i don't I don't believe, I didn't believe then and I don't believe now that there was ever any intention to do anyone harm, that there was anything untoward happening that Edward Kennedy made, there was any malice of forethought or It just happened. Accidents happen.
Speaker: Now, to be clear, he also had a whole team of attorneys oh gosh come in and meet with him very quickly within the day. Yeah, he was he was protecting himself immediately.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, Nikki, something I found that I had never heard and was so interesting. So like this incident happened what? July. i think it was like kind of 19th. It was kind of like it was like 19th to 20th. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, the Apollo 11 moon landing occurred on the 20th. That like the next day. oh wow. I didn't even consider that.
Speaker: i I don't know. i i was very surprised I didn't know more about it. So when the like the two events converged within the same weekend, it did impact like global media coverage for Senator Kennedy um and the in the crash. but Because yeah it ended up being overshadowed by Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin's first steps on the lunar surface, which, let's remember, was also tied back to...
Speaker: one of Jack's maine's main um goals and and yeah, and he's something he was huge proponent of. It is also said that the announcement of the accident was held back as long as it could be in order for it to be overshadowed by this event.
Speaker: That makes the most sense. Yeah, I think that's very key, the manipulation of the accident. media yeah releases even at that time. so So now, yeah, we have his airplane crash. That was the day of the civil rights vote, right? And then, yeah. And so then this Chappaquiddick is the, you know, the day before the moon landing. So interesting timing on those events.
Speaker: Yeah. and both events were related to Jack and Bobby. Yeah, who he's, Ted has always sort of been in the shadow of, and in both instances it was accomplishments or and yeah events that could be tied as are are said to be accomplishments of his two older parents.
Speaker: brother. So yeah. w Yikes. An autopsy was never performed on Mary Jo because the medical examiner immediately determined that she had died by drowning, but the district attorney filed to have her body exhumed.
Speaker: The Kopechnies didn't want this at the time. They were, as we know, very Catholic and they were worried that if they did any sort of autopsy or further exam, they they would check to see if Mary Jo was a virgin or not, or if she was pregnant.
Speaker: Even the possibility of that was so kind of crippling to them, they refused. they They didn't want to do the have the body exhumed.
Speaker: Years later, Mary Jo's mother, Gwen, would say that this was the biggest mistake of her life. Although I can see at the time, maybe beyond just those reasons, it would be a difficult choice to To dig up yeah those wounds and the pain of having to go through that. I don't know. I guess I can understand how in retrospect it would be something you would consider a mistake, but at the moment, yeah not an illogical choice to make and with with width of emotions.
Speaker: Yeah. Agreed. But the Kennedys were happy because they also discouraged the Kopechnys from exhuming Mary Jo's body. There was really no explanation for this, nor were there any apologies from the Kennedy family for anything.
Speaker: Ted called every few years, but it was ultimately because he was asking for support with his various elections. That's so typical. Yeah, he would give them these empty promises that he would tell the truth about everything that happened and that, no, this was real. This is whatever, bla blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: So I think this part's wild. Everybody was telling the Kopechnys to sue Ted. Even Muhammad Ali wrote to the Kopechnis to encourage them to sue Ted.
Speaker: Ali thought that Ted probably raped her and should be charged criminally. In the letter, he wrote, quote, there were no mitigating circumstances His TV speech was written for him by dozens of lawyers and speech makers and was not his own, the cheap two-bit hypocrite.
Speaker: Like, yeah, Muhammad Ali, the national hero, really doesn't like you.
Speaker: Do you think there's... do you i don't know. What do you think about the whole idea of rape? I... So I think that... I don't know how Mary Jo ended up in the car, but I think he knew she was there.
Speaker: And he probably attempted to pull over when the police officer saw them. The car stopped. And he tried to, i don't know, like seduce her or whatever.
Speaker: you know, suggest that they, there's some sort of sexual encounter and maybe even like was touching her inappropriately or like trying to kiss her. And my thought is that she would have pushed him away.
Speaker: i think I agree with you. I'd like to believe that at least he didn't assault her. Yeah. Maybe some unwanted advances. Yeah. I think it's such a, I don't know. And it it could very well, I may be naive and just like, I'm so brokenhearted for this woman that the thought of like it being even more of a tragedy is like overwhelming for me.
Speaker: So I don't know if that's if I'm being naive about it or not, but I would like to think that if there were any sort of advances that she kind of rebuffed him. Now, playing devil's advocate, though, worst case scenario, he did rape her when this happened.
Speaker: Maybe he did not try his hardest to get her out of the car because – Yeah. But i I'm going to be honest. I don't think – I don't think that's what happened. I really hope Yeah. And I think that's – I bet that was probably Muhammad Ali's thought process too was that's what happened and he didn't – he intentionally didn't try.
Speaker: yeah <unk> Now, the fact that he kind of held over the parents and the family with – telling them the truth about everything very and maybe did i misunderstand that when you said that like i got the feeling that yeah he kind of never shared the full truth but knew it yeah and they knew he wasn't sharing it that's my understanding too is they always felt like he wasn't telling them everything there was a a payout of 150 000
Speaker: it It is said that like 50,000 of that was by the automobile, like the insurance company, and that the remainder was paid directly by the Kennedys. But the specific like terms and agreement, are they were officially kept secret.
Speaker: um So we will never know for sure. yeah Like everything. Well, the Kopechnies ultimately just wanted answers and to honor their daughter.
Speaker: I think after the funeral, they got a letter from someone who was friends with someone at the party who explained that the cottage was small and only had the two bedrooms and that there wasn't enough room for everybody to sleep comfortably and that Mary Jo had, in fact, gone to the backseat of Ed of Ted's Oldsmobile to go to sleep.
Speaker: But I don't think it was ever really that I don't know who would have written that letter. It's like a friend of a friend. I And even if that was the case, there's still no explanation for why he got in the car and drove it. And he even admitted, yeah, best case scenario, he was driving her.
Speaker: She had asked and he was driving to the very lots lots of inconsistencies in exactly what happened. Yeah. But we do know the girls were checked into a hotel. Yeah. That was in Edgerton. That is known information. Right.
Speaker: So up until this point, ah the media had really just reported that ted miraculously avoided the Kennedy curse. Okay. Okay. I have a lot to say here. Okay. Do you know that this is when the whole notion of the Kennedy curse started? Yeah. Bobby said something about how the family must be cursed or something like that, I think. Yeah. And so did Ted. Yeah. That he gave a speech where he first used the word curse in it. um
Speaker: And we'll talk a little bit about that speech later. In a minute. Okay. i just I just never fully realized this is when it first came up. And I find it so disheartening that we start getting this notion when the curse is somebody else. Yep.
Speaker: was taken. Yeah. Not that one of theirs. And that, you know, i just wonder how much of a maybe even the lawyers had to do with distracting the public by using this excuse. Oh, yeah. Partial excuse. Yeah. Yeah. yeah I just found that very disturbing. yeah This is when it started. Yep.
Speaker: ah The media was reporting that Mary Jo was just like a Kennedy groupie who had seduced Ted. but we know that she most likely died a virgin. The story became about Ted's political future and not the loss of Mary Jo. And showing that, the media just always called Mary Jo, quote, the blonde or, quote, the victim.
Speaker: Ted would have to speak to the nation in a televised speech. The night of the speech, which was held at Rose and Jo's home, Jo any woman...
Speaker: That was around. So like Ted's wife, I think Ethel might have been there, but certainly Rose, were sent to a separate room during the address. And this was to make sure that Joan was kept away from the cameras.
Speaker: The Kennedy family cleaners descended to make sure that Ted escaped any charges. leaving Mary Jo to be collateral damage. And as you said, using, quote, the curse became a way of absolving responsibility.
Speaker: So something I didn't take specific notes about, but I want to talk a little bit about, is Jo Senior's response to everything. So we know that Ted was always seen as like,
Speaker: The screw up and the just the little brother and things like this. And I think the movie does a good job of showing showing this. um But this was kind of like Joe Sr.' last straw with Ted. He'd always been incredibly hard on Ted.
Speaker: And this, he was just like, you destroyed our family. And Joe was ailing at this point. what He wasn't. Yeah, he had had the stroke. He was in the wheelchair. I don't think he was speak able to speak much. and He certainly wasn't able to move much.
Speaker: So he was mad at the world anyway. But I think that disappointment, I can't think of a word stronger than disappointment, but that from his father being the last boy of his four sons alive and then being told like the dynasty's done because of you.
Speaker: He's like, ugh. Well, and he, i think, famously said to his son that you need to act like a Kennedy. And I don't believe that was necessarily meant to be take responsibility for everything. It was fix everything and move on.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. Yep. But it was clear at this point that Kennedy's life and public image were changed by this event. Absolutely. In fact, like one of Robert Kennedy's aides just said,
Speaker: You knew it would never be the same. It didn't mean he couldn't have a public life in service, but it wouldn't be a charmed life. Maybe. Side note, maybe that's debatable, but um yeah it was going to be different. And that was that was very evident from the immediately. Yeah. The thing we'll start seeing are these like little glimmers of things that change, Ted, I think for the better.
Speaker: in how he serves the public. We know that public service was so meaningful to the Kennedy family. It was like one of their big beliefs was serving the American people.
Speaker: And, you know, this weirdly kind of mirrors a conversation we were just having about people finding sympathy and empathy for things once something close to them happens to experience it.
Speaker: And I think Ted felt... as he got older, was able to find those moments of like this thing happened. And that means it's happening to other people too. And so we'll see that in what we'll talk about next. um But I have like, i can't get let go of like the soft spot I have for Ted. And I want to, because Chappaquiddick was so messed up and what he does to Joan, what we'll talk about next time is so messed up.
Speaker: But then there's the, there's little glimmers of the good things he does. like, dang it. Yeah. I don't know. This is one. Yeah. This is where the fun part of having a podcast is where we can disagree. I'm a little harder on Ted and usually, usually it's reversed.
Speaker: Yeah. And I, I'm a little harder on the guy. I think he, no, don't get me wrong. Everything in Chappaquiddick he did was wrong and dumb and awful.
Speaker: yeah This whole thing, like to me, the fact that, and I don't mean to harp on it, but the fact that this whole curse thing came up, and then you know it is said that the family generally did not believe in the curse, oh yeah but um that it became this like Kennedy like sort of wide-ranging explanation for a lot of things that could happen. And you know a little way to get through some of these yeah incidents that You know, that that obviously some some things, they had misfortunes and certainly in plane crashes, but they it also has been used over the years to get them to explain some of the self-inflicted tragedies. We'll talk a lot about that in John F. Kennedy Jr. because that's that's a big deal in that one. All right.
Speaker: I think we should little stop there. ah Next week, we'll talk about family members around Ted, kind of the second half of his life. um We'll talk a lot about his first wife, Joan, um and his career and all those things.
Speaker: And some of the things he did that were brought has made his reputation a little redeemed his his reputation a little bit, too. I think what what we're we're ending on a pretty low point here in his life. And yeah, we'll give him some credit.
Speaker: He did contribute a lot also to to society in positive ways. Yeah, his his political career as a senator, I think, is looked upon as a net positive. But I'm still not giving him.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm still not a fan. Yeah, at least, especially at this point Yeah, at this point, we're just like, nope, not interested. no All right, well. All right. Well, we'll see everybody next time.
Speaker: Thank you. Y'all have a good week. Bye.
