Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I have ADHD. Joy is autistic and we are letting our hyper fixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Kennedy curse.
Speaker: Welcome back, everyone. Welcome back. So today we are going to keep talking about ted Kennedy. Last week we talked about the Chappaquiddick tragedy as well as the, what else do we talk about? The plane crash. The plane crash. Yeah. um I did. I don't know if you saw it. I posted, i always post for the social media when an episode comes out. um And the picture did for the plane crashes, it is this photo of Ted laying on a gurney and he's got like his arm behind his neck and he's looking and behind him is just a sea of photographers, like just standing in front of the hospital bed, taking his picture in the hospital bed.
Speaker: Oh, good Lord. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Yeah. No, it looked like he had to do like a press conference from the hospital almost. I saw the movie. they They have like where he's like laying in the in the hospital, like in the body cast. So he's laying face down and he's reading and going through yeah campaign materials and stuff under like under the hole. Those Kennedy boys always working.
Speaker: They never give up until they do. Yeah. frank Or hurt someone. yeah Yep. hu All right. So. We've got a little bit more on Ted Jr. today. Yeah, we're going to start talking about Ted Jr. And then we're going to get into Ted and Joan's marriage, which is a roller coaster.
Speaker: Yeah, i I have kind of a ah lot of opinions on on the marriage. So we'll have some fun with that. All right. So let's talk about Ted Jr. Ted and Joan had, I believe, two boys and one girl.
Speaker: And Ted was always tough on his boys, as his father was tough on his boys. um His son Patrick had asthma.
Speaker: And the issue of Patrick's asthma always caused tension between Ted and Joan. Ted would push him really hard and Joan would have to step in and be like, he's going to get sick. he We have to slow down. But anytime there was a crisis with any of his children or nieces and nephews, he would like be shaken out of his selfishness and like single mindedness and step up to be this like Really great dad and uncle. Yeah. In every instance, he really he really shows what he can do. Now, I mean, I think it definitely could be argued that more that on a day-to-day basis would have. Yeah, that probably would have been helpful. ben Do you think it was performative or do you think it was genuine? Yeah.
Speaker: I do think it was genuine. I think, um you know, as like when Joe Jr. died, Jack was told like, you're the leader of the family. And then Jack died and Bobby was told you're the leader of the family.
Speaker: And i think once Ted was the only boy left, he kind of stepped up as like the de facto leader of the family after Joe Sr. died.
Speaker: And I don't think he filled that role great, but I think it was really important to him for that next generation that he modeled what he could in terms of like, this is what how you care for your family.
Speaker: Yeah. And then, yeah, I would argue that in in a way that was performative in that, yes, he would really model it when when one of these crisis situations come up. that's when people are watching you, right?
Speaker: And that's what he – you know, even his legacy a bit is very focused on, on what he did in these difficult situations. Yeah. I think it's very much a thing of like, uh,
Speaker: people, you don't know what you don't know. And for some people, they can't experience, like they can't understand what somebody else is going through unless they experienced like a slice of it or even like an iota of what someone else is going through. And so I think Ted is that person very much. And so when, you know, I think he...
Speaker: If I'm remembering correctly, he went to Caroline Kennedy's house immediately after Jack Jr. died and like stepped up and took care of everything. And it's like there were things he experienced in that and like her having to tell the kids that he like had never thought of. And then because he finally experienced like seeing something like that or or as we'll get to, how difficult the medical system was when his son was going through something, then he's like, oh, I care about this.
Speaker: Other people have to do this. Do you think his experiences, his plane crash and recovery and that trauma, do you think that helped give give him some wisdom?
Speaker: ah Maybe, yeah. Insights with them? I mean, after losing, because Ba, I can't remember if it was, it was after Jack's death that Ted was in the plane crash. And so maybe that did shake something up in him after having lost two brothers. i don't know. if That's one of the, it's like so the dichotomy of Ted Kennedy is we're going to talk about how terribly he he treated his wife.
Speaker: But then I do see him as like, always being there for these kids. I do. Yeah, I agree. think I'm a little, in this case, we've talked about it. For some reason, I'm a little harsher on him than you are, which is usually the opposite. Yeah, it's really I mean, he did take care of his family and he did have a good voting record and he was a strong public servant.
Speaker: i will I won't hold back in the Joan part. Don't think I'm going to let him off the hook because he's a good dad and uncle. Yeah. All right. so Ted Jr. Yeah. So on November 6th, 1973, Ted noticed a lump on his 12-year-old son, Ted Jr.'s knee.
Speaker: Ted thought it was like a sports injury or just like a bump and a bruise of a 12-year-old boy, but this lump grew quickly. and it grew fast enough. Like, Joan was away at the time, and it grew fast enough that Ted had to, like, do something. There wasn't time to, like, I'll wait for his mom to get home. We'll take him to the doctor. It was it was like an emergency situation. That's crazy.
Speaker: Yeah, I know. um But three days later, Jr. was diagnosed with a tumor on his leg. The tumor turned out to be bone cancer. The bone cancer spread quickly through his leg.
Speaker: And Ted immediately started calling doctors all over the country. He was using that Kennedy name. Which has helped him more than once, especially, yeah. And we talked about that a little bit with Kara and, yeah her medical situation.
Speaker: Yeah. So Ted, because of this happening so quickly, Jr.'s care became over. The only job that mattered for Ted in that moment.
Speaker: Over the next two years, Ted Jr. would undergo experimental treatments to no avail. And it was determined that Ted Jr. would have to have his leg amputated above the knee. I'm surprised he made it, though, two years without it spreading anywhere else, especially being as fast growing as it was.
Speaker: I wonder – because I thought that too. I wonder if the treatment slowed it. Probably. Especially if it was some sort of experimental treatment that they didn't really know the results of, if it perhaps slowed it and but didn't cure anything or stop anything. i don't know. Yeah.
Speaker: At the time that they determined they had to do the amputation, if they hadn't done it when they did it, he would have died within the next year and a half. The surgery did have to be delayed because Ted was giving away Bobby and Ethel's daughter, Kathleen, away at her wedding.
Speaker: Not sure that I think that should have taken press precedence, but... You know, and I think it's the thing of, like, he was so scared to let them down. or Or slightly performative. Yeah.
Speaker: Yep, that too. he But he was always trying to step up for his brother's kids. And and fill it and fill in, I i suppose. with Yeah, yeah. Fill in as the father figure-ish. So he walked Kathleen down the aisle and um and after the ceremony, so he didn't even stay for the reception. It was like the ceremony and he hopped on him and went went home, got back to the hospital as fast as he could. Ted and Joan actually didn't tell Ted Jr. about the amputation until the night before the operation.
Speaker: Now, how old was Ted at this time? Or Ted Jr., I'm sorry. okay Okay. 14 or 15. What are your thoughts on that? that's I don't love that.
Speaker: I don't either. i don't. I would have involved my kids in like the conversation, I think. Like, you know, in an age appropriate way, I probably would have like talked with the doctor outside the room and then come in and been like, this is what we're talking about the next step being and what do you think? and I feel like needed to be emotionally prepared for that a little bit, especially at that age. I mean, that's not a little kid.
Speaker: No. That said, I also am generally not a person who believes in keeping things from your kids and to, yeah you know, protect them. I think it's better to have them work through it. But yeah, I agree. And he's old enough to even like if on paper, he's not 18, it's really not his decision. He's old enough to be a part of that decision.
Speaker: Oh, certainly. Yeah. Yeah. Ted and Joan presented a united front through the surgery and the recovery until Ted Jr. came home and started recovering and Joan like just completely fell apart.
Speaker: She had been really strong during the illness, but once they got home and things started settling is when she crumbled. So their marriage was rocky at this point, but they still were several years away from actually divorcing her.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. So she – we'll talk about this way more. She was pretty deep in alcoholism at this time as well. So once Ted Jr. came home and she kind of fell apart, she ended up spending three weeks in a luxury rehab center – um But as always, what the Kennedys do is minimize the reason she was there to the public.
Speaker: In terms of Ted, he handled everything as well as he could. The family eventually convinced him to try skiing again, even with the amputation. So they went on a family skiing trip and he learned how to ski.
Speaker: ah Ted and the team made sure that the media was not there, but they also made sure Joan wasn't there. There's some foreshadowing. They didn't want her embarrassing with the family?
Speaker: Mm-hmm. Oh, Joan. Poor Joan. Okay. Through all of this with his son, Ted began to understand the difficulties of the American health care system. well So while they were at the hospital through all these treatments and and the amputation, he started meeting people there who couldn't afford care and were dealing with the possibilities of their children's lives being compromised because of money. He became dedicated to cancer research and health care reform because of The interactions with the people around him, you know, who were when he was just a dad with a sick kid.
Speaker: yeah And remember, yeah, he he he's in the Senate for decades after this. And his voting record reflects his dedication to the idea of health care and providing it for others in need.
Speaker: Yeah, and I – you know, the the Kennedys instilled in the kids that part of their role as like being American royalty was service to others.
Speaker: And I do think there are these little top glimmers that like they really did show that and mean it. Like I think Bobby Kennedy was civil rights once he was running – um to be the Democratic nominee. Like there were just these moments that it was like, okay, this is, they can like be an emblem of that.
Speaker: Yeah. From the outside and and from a bit of their golden perch. Yes. 100%. So Ted jr. Though went on to live a healthy life after this, which is somewhat amazing. He ended up going to Yale law school.
Speaker: um No surprise there. And became a politician for ah a short time. I think he was in the state Senate for Connecticut and at one point had considered running for governor of Connecticut, but never did. He also became, his legal career was ah was very focused on disability law.
Speaker: Yeah. All right. So let's talk about the marriage. We talked about ah Ted's wife, Joan Bennett Kennedy. And Joan was like gorgeous. She was stunning.
Speaker: She was. Yeah. And just in a classic way. Yeah. Yeah. A very like nineteen sixty s way too. Yeah. But not overdone. Like, I just think there was a natural beauty to her.
Speaker: And a confidence in the way she carried herself. um And I think her personality was very outgoing and she was so likable. Yeah. And she she, like you said, confident. She was a model. She'd been in pageants and she was earning her own money through her modeling career.
Speaker: Yeah, sorry. I was jumping ahead anyway. No, no, it's okay. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. She was born in New York City um and she was raised Roman Catholic. Of course, her father um actually was the president of a large advertising agency. So I think it's safe to say that Joan grew up in a family with privilege and like a substantial social standing, but but not quite on that level ah of the Kennedys. Yeah. she Like you said, I'm sorry. She was a model. She was in pageants. She earned her own money through modeling in school, which is amazing. She attended Manhattanville College in New York. And like if you're called, that's where Ted's mother rose.
Speaker: um And his sister, Jean, and even sister-in-law, Ethel. That's where they all had attended college. It was a historic college. Mm-hmm. She got her bachelor's degree from there. And actually she was introduced. They're always introduced by each other. So Joan was introduced to Ted by his sister, Jean, and they were there attending a dedication to a gymnasium on the campus.
Speaker: um That was a to the memory of Kathleen Kennedy. So Ted's older sister who perished in the, in the plane cla crash, um, nine years prior. And, ah yeah, their courtship was, was not very long. Um, it was about a year, right? it's Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: So maybe long in Kennedy timeline. but True. True. Not very long for, uh, getting to know someone. Yeah. say yeah the couple's proposal was less than romantic.
Speaker: ah Ted basically handed her a box with a ring in it that his father had bought to give to her. His father was really ready for him to get married and felt like Joan ticked all the boxes. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And she really loved him, as we'll see going through. But she realized that this wasn't necessarily her love story. It was a family merger. Yeah.
Speaker: as all As were all the marriages. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone felt that way. All the um all the spouses sort of felt that way in their own individual – on their own individual terms. a little different. Different situation for each. But all felt like Joe was overly involved and that it was kind of a almost transactional.
Speaker: and But what I will say is I do think Jackie and Ethel were in on the transaction. if that makes sense. Sure. You don't want to you don't want an irritating sister-in-law.
Speaker: No, I mean, when they were proposed. Oh, okay. and that right thought you meant bringing in Joan. No, when they i I think they were they understood that this was almost a business transaction as well.
Speaker: And i think and they were in they were on they understood it and were not necessarily... opposed to it. i don't think Joan was ever led to believe anything different than they were in love and going to get married until the proposal happened. She was like, oh.
Speaker: Yeah. No, I – yeah, I agree. Her and her family – I mean, they saw the the prestige and benefit of being married to a Kennedy. But at the same time, it didn't seem to um be as much of a goal for them to land a Kennedy like like the – like Ethel and Jackie – Yeah, definitely. Pretty soon after the engagement, Joan started learning things about Ted's personality that she didn't like, and she told her father that she wanted to postpone the wedding.
Speaker: Her father approached Joe Sr. and Ted. Don't know what was said. However, her father came back and said to her that the wedding was happening no matter what.
Speaker: Ted also got cold feet the night before the wedding, but his parents... of course, pushed him to go through with it because it would be so good for his future. Ted and Joan's wedding was the highest profile Kennedy wedding since Jack and Jackie. But did you know, so so the night of the wedding, so at the reception...
Speaker: Joan's parents had paid for like a videographer um at the time, like a professional videographer. And ah and Jack Kennedy was there and he was had a microphone on. They all had microphones on, but he forgot that he had it on and was kind of had like a hot mic moment and where he was joking with Ted that marriage did not include absolute fidelity. Yeah.
Speaker: And that he should consider being unfaithful. This is at the wedding. ah But then later, Joan discovered it accidentally when she was watching the footage.
Speaker: Oh my gosh. So right from the very beginning, I think that was a stain. You can't hear you can't hear me with the agog look on my face. i just realized I'm just looking at you in shock. Can you must be imagine? so ah there Ted needed to keep you know the the illusion almost. of Not the illusion, but he needed to keep up the guise of like having this perfect wife so he could get to the White House. Yeah.
Speaker: And Joan was a people pleaser and Joan's parents loved Ted and what Ted could do for her. So Joan went along with everything in this wedding and pushed through.
Speaker: But actually on the honeymoon, Ted left suddenly telling his new wife that he needed to go write a paper for law school. Which is funny because we have learned how he has cheated on some academic pursuits in the yeah past.
Speaker: Hopefully he was really – hopefully he learned. it And was really focused on it. yeah he Yeah. But I don't know. I would put it past him. No, especially after his big brother told him that at the wedding. Uh-huh. Yeah, maybe get started on that right away.
Speaker: So the newlyweds started their lives together. Joan was really loved by the reporters because she was so personable and fun. But she was not media savvy. like She had not been trained in the way of the Kennedy media machine.
Speaker: She once slipped up while talking to the media about Jack's back pain and Jackie wearing wigs. Can you imagine how hard that is to make sure that you're saying the right thing all the time? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Granted, I would have it an impossible time because I'm a complete oversharer. But um poor thing. Because, yeah, I mean, because, yeah, like Ted would get angry at her. Yeah.
Speaker: He would say, don't embarrass me, Jonesy. I feel for her. Yeah. And we this same thing, like this gives me so much um Carolyn Bessette 100%. And I was going to say that earlier, even in her, like when we talked about the beauty and her like being a classic beauty um and saying it, Carolyn Bessette kind of had that that same image. she She kind of felt the same way about her was that she was just a natural beauty who was, yeah, in love, but
Speaker: put in a situation that was overwhelming and she was not prepared for. Yeah. Now the difference is I think that Jack Jr. or John Jr. deeply loved Carolyn. Yeah. And Ted it tolerates Joan. Yeah.
Speaker: So there's that difference, but it's very, like very same, similar story. Yeah. And obviously John Jr. and Carolyn didn't live to be married for very long. So.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Well, also, in the same way they did to Carolyn, the media began objectifying Joan. She was stunning and she dressed provocatively, but this was a clear attempt to get her husband's attention.
Speaker: She was under pressure constantly to stay perfect. And this led to her having some struggles with depression. So, of course, as a Kennedy, you have to have as many babies as possible immediately. But it actually took her two years to get pregnant. And this was viewed shamefully to the Kennedy brand.
Speaker: Like even Jackie was able to get pregnant. She she had losses. But the losses the media looked as, you know, they felt bad for her. Joan couldn't get pregnant, so there was something wrong with her. Yeah.
Speaker: Joan always deeply loved and was very loyal to Ted, but she felt like she was a Kennedy against her will. On top of this, she was always anxious that Ted would meet the same fate as his brothers, Jack and Bobby. That, I don't think it's unusual to be a little worried about that. Well, certainly not. Yeah, definitely understand why she would feel that way. Yeah. And again, if we remember, those two, you know, obviously were killed. But, I mean, even their – Joe, their eldest brother. So we're down to – yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And I imagine Ted went through his life feeling – I think if anyone felt like the weight of a Kennedy curse, it was probably Ted Kennedy having lost his three older brothers. Yeah, although don't get me started how he only started calling it a curse after he hurt somebody. Yeah, I know.
Speaker: Yep, of course, of course. i was the in in he And he also never fully felt like he lived up to his brothers too. Right, yeah. And my guess is, and this is pure conjecture, is ah he may have not felt like Joan lived up to Ethel and Jackie and what they represented. and and I think that's absolutely certain.
Speaker: And I think she felt Yep. Yeah, he was cruel to her. i think this i think the book Ask Not referred to him as chronically self-absorbed.
Speaker: And just an example was Joan was an incredibly gifted pianist and she would play and like Ted just didn't care. Yeah, I want to give her like a little bit. I want to focus on this for a little bit because I don't think anyone understands quite how gifted she was.
Speaker: um Yeah, I've never heard her play. Like I've seen pictures of her near a piano, but doesn't tell you too much. She was um ah like a classically trained. She went to Juilliard. She well, obviously, she had gotten her degree in at ah Manhattanville, but then she went on and she trained at Juilliard. She actually made um like a formal orchestral solo piano debut with the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1970.
Speaker: um And she earned a standing ovation and rave reviews. wow. So again, like the public is acknowledging her talents, but but Ted isn't. And she's trying to get Ted's attention and approval.
Speaker: um She went on to perform worldwide yeah with like major conductors and orchestras um all over the world. Oh, wow. So um and then she also I think this is so cute. She would um she would play like warm up for the crowds at various Kennedy family member campaign stops. That's really cute.
Speaker: Isn't it? so love that. And she played at um including like Woody Guthrie. This land is your land ah for or Bobby's 1968 presidential campaign.
Speaker: Oh, i but that just tells me she was trying so hard. Yeah. to Yeah. be like To be a part of it. i I agree. And using the talent she had and to help the to help anyone. Yeah. Which, I mean, i I feel like just something like that, just like warming up the credit campaign step, would go a long way toward winning over the hearts of the continued constituents.
Speaker: I would love it. Yeah, I would too. I muted myself to sneeze. that That's what happened to me. So yeah, how disinterested he was in her her piano playing really hurt her. He would also mock her.
Speaker: he would parade his affairs in front of her and like just neglected any sort of relationship with her. Jackie once pulled her aside and told her to try not to take the affairs personally. so Joan tried not to take the affairs personally.
Speaker: Which I don't think is possible. and i mean Yeah. Which Jackie obviously understood. But um yeah I guess what else what else what other advice is there to give? Yeah. So Ted was a brazen adulterer who did not hide his behavior at home or at work. And was just it was just outright embarrassing to her because ah remember we have the media is is hounding her and is is drawn to her.
Speaker: But she always has that feeling that the media knows everything, right? Everyone knows everyone knows what her husband does. hu I think I said before that and they know she knows. Yeah. So it's just a it's it's just embarrassing constantly. And it's also a thing of um she's not a good enough wife to keep him under control.
Speaker: It's almost it's blaming her as well. Which is not it' not such a crazy thing in our society. think it happens to a lot. Yeah. A lot of women are blamed for the behavior of men around them.
Speaker: And we'll see. that She'll take the brunt of blame for a lot of other things. So I want to run through a list of rumors and accusations of some of Ted's behavior.
Speaker: There were rumors that he had a drug box in his desk at the Senate. Yeah. He rumored that he paid off a 14-year-old girl that he attempted to rape, hired 17-year-old as an intern, and had sex with her.
Speaker: assaulted waitresses, drove around D.C. trying to pick up women, did cocaine with two of his kids when they were adults. I didn't put that in the notes, so it just looks like it just says did cocaine with two of into his kids.
Speaker: Rumors that one of his mistresses, he paid for two abortions for her and that he was treated for gonorrhea. So this is just like going over the span of his political career, some of the things that were.
Speaker: Happening, allegedly. It was quite the Don Juan. Yeah. Once at a dinner party, Ted forced his kid's nanny to dress in Joan's clothes and host the party while Joan was asleep.
Speaker: This was to show Joan that any woman could fill her place if she refused to do what was expected of her. That's just sick. Uh-huh. Yeah. So despite this horrific behavior, like horrific treatment of her and behavior, he needed her.
Speaker: The media loved her. And she was so integral in his campaigns. We say he needed her. i we Go back to that 1964 plane crash while he was literally hospitalized and recovering.
Speaker: She was the one who campaigned. He was unable yeah hit the campaign trail at all. And this was for his full Senate race. So. just to recap. So he would had had been put in a temporary, he had won a temporary position. This was when he had to run for the full race.
Speaker: His accident was six months prior to that. So Joan stepped in, she became his surrogate and she campaigned, did all the campaigning on his behalf for months, traveling throughout Massachusetts by herself, alongside other family members would join her from time to time.
Speaker: And again, he was fully recovering. He was not she was not there with him, during this time at all. And although she was really outside of her comfort zone, um, she won over the public and Ted ended up winning that like reelection by a three to one landslide margin over his Republican opponent.
Speaker: And that was her. It was fully her. She won. he he won that by much larger margin than when he ran his, um, partial Senate race when he was appointed to the position.
Speaker: In Ted's biography, though, it was noted that it was during this first campaign in 1962 that he began to notice Joan's drinking issues. Yeah.
Speaker: So I think all this campaigning really did get to her. Yeah, absolutely. And after Chappaquiddick, Joan just basically gave up trying to hide it and became a full-blown alcoholic.
Speaker: Ted always pointed to her addiction as his, quote, albatross without acknowledging his own issues with alcohol. And let's remember, he had significant issues with alcohol.
Speaker: Yeah. As well as many other vices, including drugs, too. Yeah, absolutely. But his issues were, was with her alcohol issues. Hers always were hung out, stride before the public. Yeah.
Speaker: In October 1974, Joan appeared on the cover of Time magazine with Betty Ford and Pat Nixon with the headline, quote, The Ordeal of Political Wives.
Speaker: The article was about the demands of women in the spotlight with their husbands. The article was critical of Ted pointing to him and the pressures of being a Kennedy wife as the cause of her addiction and mental health issues. So the truth. ah yeah ike You and I disagree on this a little bit. i so Nothing's ever the cause, right? Everyone.
Speaker: know. I was like, definitely contributing factor. Definitely understandable. how it yeah And I think her life would have been completely different away from the Kennedy's. A ah hundred percent.
Speaker: But it's still, I mean, and i guess yeah it was say I assume it as an alcoholic, she hopefully still took full responsibility. It still still is. Right. And that means like mental health issues and addiction were already in her.
Speaker: and This made of exacerbated, that exasperated. I can never say that word. I'm not even going to try. it Made things work. Ev, you can keep that in. It's funny.
Speaker: Yeah, i think I think joining the Kennedy family probably made everything worse for everyone. Yeah. Joan was always honest with the media about her alcoholism and her mental health.
Speaker: But that was not the Kennedy brand. You're supposed to hide those things and never talk about them. Yeah, she didn't fit the mold in this way. Yeah. In 1976, Joan checked herself into a New York City rehab facility under her maiden name.
Speaker: A fellow patient recognized her and sold her stories from group therapy, including criticisms of Ethel and Rose and others in the family to the media. So I'm going to say, when we consider...
Speaker: the curse on the family. I think this is one of the most poignant episodes. Yeah. And to the, to point out how the Kennedy effect had such an influence and a curse on the, the people who loved them.
Speaker: Yeah. I think this is tragic. i I feel for her so much in this instance. She like her personal confidence is like personal confidence is absolutely central to any kind of substance rehab. And one's ability to trust others in their group is like central. Yeah. um And so that they can be 100% honest.
Speaker: And I cannot imagine having faith in the people that you are with that you can put yourself out there and then have that um privacy, like actually broken and And it happened more than once for Joan. And it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm never going to sit here and be like, I feel bad for rich people who can afford these luxury rehabs. But there's a reason that celebrities have to go sometimes to these rehab facilities that are like insanely expensive and look like spas.
Speaker: And it's because they have to have confidence, that confidence in the people that they're around. to not sell their story. But no matter what, no, yeah, no no matter how glamorous you still can, this shows that they can never still do fully trust people because this fellow patient in group therapy sold her private confessions to the National Enquirer.
Speaker: And so then, so that that's bad enough, right? But then she was betrayed a whole second time in 1979. She had hired a secretary, Marsha Cheles.
Speaker: And she hired her specifically because she was also a recovering alcoholic um and in AA. And she believed she would kind of honor the Alcoholics Anonymous principle of anonymity. She could trust her in that way. yeah And Chalice went on to write a book, Living with the Kennedys, which Joan really felt violated her trust and was filled with inaccuracies and distortions.
Speaker: One of the things she shared actually was that during Chappaquiddick, Ted had called his girlfriend um before anyone could tell her what was happening at Chappaquiddick. Now, don't know if that's true or not, but yeah but to be sharing information like that.
Speaker: couldn understand the hurt and pain that caused. And the humiliation. Mm-hmm. And just general distrust of others. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the family actually did back Joan, the Kennedy family, um dismissing everything as just gossip.
Speaker: But that wasn't to protect her. That was to protect themselves. In the fall of 1977, Joan quietly separated from Ted She was watching Jackie working and growing while Jackie was in therapy, and this really inspired her to kind of go out on her own. She went back to school to get her master's degree.
Speaker: And she got it from um Leslie University. She got it her master's in music education. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I – that was ah That seems like it was a really big step in trying to rebuild herself and be her own person.
Speaker: So she didn't at this time divorce Ted, but she was finding her own footing. But Ted decided he was going to try to run for president in November 1979, and he needed his wife.
Speaker: Can't be separated when you're trying to be the president. Doesn't look good. Nope. she still loved him and agreed to campaign with him. The family would not allow her to leave him during the campaign, but they weren't pleased with how honest she was while campaigning. They just wanted her to be quiet and be the perfect wife. And the pressure gets to her and then she starts drinking write more.
Speaker: And so it was incredibly painful and humiliating for her to be by his side and then constantly be in the presence of colleagues that were aware of Ted's affairs and womanizing and but yet knew she was standing by him on the campaign trail and and she drinking was definitely a way for her to escape some of the shame yeah and I think comparing her to Jackie at this time like there's a over a decade difference so Jackie I think was seen more as like
Speaker: being brave for staying during like the very open secret of Jack's affairs. But Joan was like pitied. Yeah. I think Jackie was much more stoic, but ironically, we know Jackie was suffering Yeah. Very much. um It just wasn't as public, especially with the with with the drinking.
Speaker: People just didn't realize how much Jackie was suffering. Right. so And, you know, there's a little bit of an irony um to saying that, you know, she saw the progress that Jackie was having with therapy. i mean, Jackie struggled her whole life with a lot of mental health issues also.
Speaker: Well, during the campaign, they came to realize that the public was rooting for Joan, not Ted. I think Joan needed to run. I know. Yeah, she would have done great. Journalist Susanna Lessard wrote a six-page piece for the Washington Monthly that detailed Ted's history with women called, quote, Kennedy's Woman Problem, Women's Kennedy Problem.
Speaker: The piece called Ted Immature and Entitled. After the piece was published, Jackie called Joan and told her to divorce Ted. Joan was worried about this because she was very vocal um in advocating for the Equal Rights Amendment, even more than Ted was. And i think she was afraid if she left, he that would he would drop it. he would He wouldn't fight for the Equal Rights Amendment.
Speaker: So at her own expense, she fought for what she believed is right. Yeah. Yeah. Ted said that they would live separate lives once they were in the White House.
Speaker: Now, when you say, did he say that publicly or was that known between the two them? The two of them and the Kennedy family. But see even though that was kept between them, he did not hide being annoyed with her in public.
Speaker: So during the campaign, Ted sat for an interview with CBS. He was evasive, even asking for do-overs with questions. He fumbled over all of his talking points, but especially anything about his marriage or Chappaquiddick.
Speaker: Ultimately, Ted would go on to drop out of the race on August 11, 1980.
Speaker: And the pair announced their divorce on January 21st, 1981. So Ted's life dream was to become the president of the U.S. That was what he believed his legacy was. And obviously he never achieved it. Yeah.
Speaker: And I'd like to say, i feel like in his mind, part of that, he blamed that partially on Joan. but Yeah. That was completely unfair. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: The things that happen in Chappaquiddick were things he should never be excused for. Well, and he could never escape it. It was one of the times that a Kennedy scandal stayed with the public, if that makes sense. Like, he wasn't forgiven for that.
Speaker: In the divorce, Joan received about $5 million dollars from Ted. She got alimony, their Squaw Island home, and their Boston condominium. It was decided that their minor son, Patrick, would live with Ted. Their other children, Kara and Ted Jr., were adults.
Speaker: She actually sent him flowers after he made the public announcement. So did she do that in an endearing way or in a... sarcastic way. No, she always loved him.
Speaker: I think it was an endearing way. ah Yeah. Jackie had actually referred Joan to her divorce attorney because she was had divorced Onassis.
Speaker: We talked a little bit about how she went and got her master's. It was kind of at this point that when she was trying to rebuild herself and she did get that master's, after that she started, um she focused on teaching music to children, and including working with kids with learning disabilities. So she really leaned back into her talents and her passions as she tried to work through this difficult time.
Speaker: Yeah. She also taught and worked with Boston area arts organizations. And she authored she was an author of a book in 1992. She wrote The Joy of Classical Music, A Guide for You and Your Family. And it was actually edited by Jackie Kennedy Onassis. Oh.
Speaker: Oh, cool. I want it. If someone can find it, send it to me. yeah um And so it was about making classical music music more accessible to families.
Speaker: so i i I really like the Joan and Jackie's friendship like in the 80s, basically until Jackie's death. It just seemed like they were really supportive of each other and Jackie was almost like a big sister figure. Yeah, very down very different personal personalities, but definitely found that each was a source of support for the other. Yeah. Now, ah things kind of took a negative turn, though, as she tried to rebuild herself. I mean, drinking the drinking issues never went away. Yeah. And she was actually arrested for drunk driving in 1991.
Speaker: um She'd been drinking straight vodka from the bottle and weaving on the expressway. Her blood alcohol was said to be 0.18, which was nearly twice the legal limit.
Speaker: She pleaded guilty um and she got a suspended jail sentence on the condition that she get treatment. and go to weekly AA meetings.
Speaker: This wasn't her first drunk driving arrest. She was also arrested in 1974 in Virginia and 1988 on Cape Cod after she had hit a fence. This also wouldn't be her last arrest.
Speaker: Yeah. Now this is where, again, I'm going to speak up a little bit about her and Ted. And i think... I think her, her openness and her drinking was evident to the public, but I think these arrests probably enhanced that a lot.
Speaker: And I think this is where we know tread Ted drank and had his issues. Oh yeah. but He never had to drive. He had a chauffeur in life and, um, not to mention he was a man. And I think he was able to hide behind that.
Speaker: Um, and it just never became public so she had to suffer this in public have the her legacy um and memories be clouded by this and i think everyone knows ted had his issues and it doesn't play down the same way this became her almost her identity tight up yeah the this was like uh an ex-kennedy spouse bad behavior it wasn't even like nothing else mattered in the media at this point right it's And a lot of it is because also in 1991, coincidentally or not, Ted met Victoria Reggie.
Speaker: ah Victoria's father had actually known Ted for years. she Victoria was – she's different, right? So she's different from the other Kennedys ah a little bit or the other Kennedy wives. She was actually born in Crowley, Louisiana, of course, to a wealthy political family.
Speaker: um Her father was a judge and a banker. I always wonder what is a banker? Like, you know what I mean? The term I've always wondered that too. but I don't think he was like a teller. Yeah, what is a banker?
Speaker: No, that probably wouldn't be a judge and a bank teller. Banker, yeah. No. So Vicki, um she was actually an attorney. I mean, she was a strong person in her own right, though. And she was educated. She was an attorney with a Washington law firm. And she also specialized in banking and loan law. And she was actually later, um and she was nominated to be an ambassador.
Speaker: an ambassador to Austria by Joe Biden. And she was confirmed in the Senate unanimously. Wow. Yeah. So she's a tough woman. She had been married before. she had kids. um But Ted fell hard for her.
Speaker: And I think it's partly because he knew she wouldn't tolerate his bad behavior. Whereas i think he looked down on Joan for accepting his behavior.
Speaker: And also you have to think about like the age when entered the marriage and the power dynamic difference at that point versus when you're older and. And more established as well. At this time in his life, I don't think he was fighting to be like the head Kennedy anymore. i think he'd kind of accepted like I am who I am. And Vicky kind of reinforced that for him too. So he's kind of more settled.
Speaker: um And Vicky was confident in where she was at in life and who she was. Right. her Right. So Ted actually made these huge efforts to befriend Vicki's children.
Speaker: So Ted knew he wanted to marry her, but his Catholic faith was still important to him. So he actually sought an annulment from Joan from the Catholic Church.
Speaker: Basically, this in the Catholic Church, that would mean that their marriage never existed. Ironically, the annulment was granted eventually, but on the grounds, get this, that his vow to be faithful had not been honestly made.
Speaker: And I suppose that ah like hot mic conversation with Jack, if you remember at the reception, could have been used as evidence. Yeah. So um although he got this annulment, it was not in time for their wedding. It was it wasn't for like 10 years later.
Speaker: um And then ah and even at that point, a lot of Catholics were upset about him receiving an annulment at all since his marriage to Joan had lasted 20 years and produced three children.
Speaker: So, yeah, but at least it wasn't, yeah, awarded or granted for several years. So.
Speaker: And Joan actually didn't protest it. So he basically knew he could convince Joan because he knew how to yeah yeah get her to agree to the things he wanted. um And she actually agreed pretty quickly. And the reasons were she saw the positive change in Ted that Vicky brought out in him. She liked Vicky, actually. um And second, she didn't want to lose the rest of his family. Yeah.
Speaker: in any to fight By fighting him. Making a public seat, making it more of a – Yeah. She loved his family. And so interesting also like with the a lot of Catholics being upset with him about this, he also defied the church in a lot of other ways. Like he was pro-gay marriage and he was pro-choice.
Speaker: And so, yeah, a lot of people just kind of saw this as is like performative Catholicism type of thing because he was – I don't know. In some ways, he was the ideal – or from the ideal Catholic family, yet a lot of his actions yeah went against that. his At this time, his political career was just floundering.
Speaker: He did give a televised speech at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, where he apologized for disappointing the public and vowed to do better. he was still in the Senate at this point.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. He was in the Senate forever, but... Yeah, i was going to say. But not going anywhere. So Ted proposed to Vicki in January 1992. I love this story. They tried to keep the engagement a secret, just wanting to enjoy it for a little while. But one of Vicki's kids told another kid like told her kindergarten class, like, my mom's getting married. Yeah. And one of the classmate's parents worked at the Washington Post.
Speaker: That's so funny. But Joan hadn't been warned and was really upset. She, at that time, spoke to Jackie Ethel and Eunice about it, but beyond that, refused to talk about the engagement.
Speaker: Ted's adult children were a little apprehensive about this because it happened pretty fast and they were concerned about inheritance, worrying that Vicki had bad intentions.
Speaker: and In fact, Ted had refused a prenup. So there is nothing protecting him if if this was going to go bad. I understand their apprehension at this point. Yeah. Yeah. um It was one of the moments that Ted was like the eternal little brother and everybody was always protecting him and watching out for him, even his own children. But it was actually Eunice who quickly realized how much Vicky was helping Ted with his drinking.
Speaker: Ted and Vicky got married on July 3rd, 1992. In a civil ceremony. Yes. Yes. ah Ted's kids came around when they saw how happy he was. And the Kennedy family did accept Vicky because they saw how her relationship with him, Vicky, and Joan worked well.
Speaker: By the time when they got married, there was no bitterness between Vicky and Joan because they worked really hard to talk through any issues that arose. But things in joan life Joan's life still weren't great. um Yeah. And in 2000, she was arrested for drunk driving for the fourth time.
Speaker: Officers found her standing outside the car after she had been – someone had reported her as driving erratically. And sadly, this incident came months after she had told the Boston Globe she had been sober for nine years.
Speaker: Ugh. So in then again, she relapsed again She was actually found by a passerby lying in the street with blood on her face in the rain. It was around 3 a.m. m and they called for help.
Speaker: She was said to have had a concussion and a broken shoulder. and details of how she ended up in the street have never been clear and they weren't in the police report at all. But it was very embarrassing, obviously, incident. her...
Speaker: son Patrick, adult son at this point, called this a wake up call. And at that point sought permanent guardianship of her. Obviously, this relapse made national news.
Speaker: So Joan had actually stopped going to AA, and that was what led to the relapse, basically. And it got so bad that she was drinking vanilla extract and mouthwash, and her kidneys were deteriorating. My guess is her liver was also...
Speaker: Yeah. So a court order put Joan's children in charge of her finances, and the goal was to get her to stop drinking. It wasn't it wasn't supposed to be like they had they took control of everything forever.
Speaker: Ted Jr. would be put in charge of her affairs and the estate, and the kids had to stop her from selling her home. So she put up this historic home,
Speaker: um in Hyannis Port on the market for $6.4 million. dollars um And Ted Jr. later said that she was trying to retaliate against her children by trying to take Cape Cod away from them, which was something they loved.
Speaker: Yeah. And they claimed she had no legal right to sell. Mm-hmm. and And like she – they felt retaliated against because she felt bullied by the kids when really like they weren't bullying her. They were just trying to help her. But it's hard to see that when you feel like your children are telling you what to do or things like that. Oh, of course. Yeah.
Speaker: taking I mean, and and taking control of your full life. Yeah. Yeah. Against her will completely. i She must have felt very helpless at that point. And this was one way she felt like she could stand her ground. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, the kids ended up having to take her to court. She finally agreed to a court-appointed guardian and stopped the sale of the house. But the court – the judge said that if she started drinking again, the kids would become the guardian again.
Speaker: Six months later, she put the house back on the market and sold it to a stranger. And the sale price is not known, so we have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um She and her children had a strained relationship for the rest of her life, but they all deeply loved each other.
Speaker: Joan never remarried or even seriously dated anyone else. She lived a quiet life in Boston, but did stay close to the Kennedys. She had attended the annual 4th of July celebration at the Kennedy compound just three months before her death.
Speaker: Joan died peacefully in her home on October 2025, the of 89. at the age of eighty-nine I'm shocked she lived to that. I know. The 89 with their, you know, history of alcohol abuse.
Speaker: I know. um The cause of death was dementia. And it was said that she was described as, quote, in remission from alcoholism when she died. Yeah, so that's Joan. Yeah, I'm not quite sure.
Speaker: a tragic. I feel like she was such a strong woman, had so many talents, but got so overshadowed with, obviously, her husband's.
Speaker: fame and family, as well as her, the alcoholism just plagued her for her entire life. Yeah. And the responsibility of having to clean up her husband's messes when he was so callous about everything. Yeah. i wish I could understand them the inner workings of the family a little bit more.
Speaker: um Like the kids and how they felt toward their father, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. It does seem like they – ah The phrase that comes to mind if so is soft spot.
Speaker: Like he could probably get them to forgive a lot of him. And I suppose his life was on a more positive trajectory at the end. So yeah he found Vicky. He was um getting himself cleaned up and you know not drinking as much. And at the same time, Joan was going downhill. And so, yeah.
Speaker: Well, let's switch gears. Let's talk about their daughter, Kara. In 2003, Ted and Joan's daughter, Kara, was diagnosed with lung cancer. She was just 42 years old Kara, the oldest child, um had worked as a television producer. So she never got into politics. um She helped create programs like Evening Magazine in Boston. And she, of course, as a Kennedy, was a very passionate about social issues. She did a lot of like producing content for VSA Arts, which was a nonprofit dedicated to artists with disabilities. And she was on the board of the National Organization of Fetal alcohol syndrome. Oh, interesting. Yeah. i I do think that, you know, being the board of that, the nonprofit for artists with disabilities kind of really marries the, you know, like her mom's artistic side and then, you know, her brother with a disability. Yeah. And and with how passionate Eunice was, she kind of had an in um with her aunt. yep Yeah.
Speaker: So she was really loyal to her family throughout her life. And she accepted the Presidential Medal of Freedom on behalf of her father from President I think so.
Speaker: Yeah, because Obama and him were very close. So this is their second child. So out of the three, this is the second child who has had a cancer. She had been a former smoke smoker, but nobody knows for sure what How badly she or how much she smoked or things like that.
Speaker: She was initially told that the cancer was inoperable, but Ted found a surgeon who would remove part of her lung to try to save her. The operation was successful and she was declared cancer free just five years later. And Joan...
Speaker: credited Ted for saving their daughter's life. I think her survival here in this case is a major feat. I mean, lung cancer is normally um not only a death sentence, but generally most people die within a year of their diagnosis. Wow.
Speaker: Yeah. this is really amazing. Yeah. And it's like he did the exact same thing that he did for Ted Jr. He like dropped everything and this was his life. Fully stepped up and It wasn't the last of the cancer for the family. Yeah. 2011, Kara suffered a heart attack. She had just finished her daily workout.
Speaker: So by this point, she was, what, 51? 51. She's little bit younger than me. Yeah. And she was healthy, but, like, her body was always weakened from the cancer treatment. So even though she was working out and eating healthy and, like, taking care of herself,
Speaker: She had a heart attack at the age of 51 and she died. Oh, it was a it was a shock at that point. Yeah. It was very unexpected because she had been living, you know, cancer-free and healthy and thriving.
Speaker: So let's talk about the end of Ted's life. On May 17, 2008, Ted suffered a seizure and he was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor and given two to four months to live.
Speaker: Ted was actually at peace with this because he was able to say goodbye to people in his life when his brothers had never been given that chance. He was active in politics right up until the end. He gave speeches with Barack Obama and was at his inauguration.
Speaker: He had spent 46 years as a senator. In June 2008, he had a brain surgery and he survived. It went fine. And he spent that 4th of July surrounded by his family at the annual Kennedy celebration.
Speaker: And Joan was there, and he and Joan spent a lot of time just sitting together and talking at that event. Ted died on August 25, 2009, two weeks after his sister Eunice.
Speaker: And it was actually Ethel who took Ted's death the hardest because she credited him for getting her through the loss of her husband, Bobby.
Speaker: I always forget that Ethel lived to be 297 years old. And yeah, so the end of his life, he was... He was okay with it, I think.
Speaker: He was at peace. And then Patrick, we didn't talk as much about Patrick Kennedy, the third child. He ended up um actually taking the most direct route into federal federal politics. He represented Rhode Island's first district in the U.S. House of Representatives for over 15 years. So from 1995 2011. And he, during his time Congress, was champion for health.
Speaker: and he during his time in congress was a champion for mental health um after leaving office, he founded the Kennedy forum and he he's alive, continues to be one of the country's most vocal advocates for mental health and addiction treatment equality.
Speaker: So we can see those, the public service and the passions for all the issues that seem to affect them and their families. Yeah. In the, in the achievements of their children.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That generation, like the Kara Kennedy's generation of Kennedys all seem pretty cool. Yeah. All right. Well, that's Ted. So we're done with Ted. We're going to take like a little detour from the siblings next week because, again, I write notes chronologically. It's just how it makes sense in my brain. And the next like quote chronological event is what we're going to talk about next time, which is gray gardens.
Speaker: Which I have been getting caught up on. I had no idea. I had never heard of gray gardens until we talked last time, but I have, I have spent some time researching and I am very excited to to share what I've learned. so I'm so excited. i love this story. um Also, if you can believe it, they made it into a musical. So I'm obsessed with the musical, which is why I'm obsessed with Grey Garden. So I've been singing the musical in my head all week. We'll have to get some music and put that into next week's episode. Just imagine.
Speaker: So i i of course, now can't remember who originated the roles, but imagine the Kennedy in Yeah. in sog okay
Speaker: I'm so excited. I can't wait to hear. And then we will finish up. ah ah We'll have a couple more episodes of like this generation of siblings. But we're going to take little Grey Gardens detour.
Speaker: Have little fun. I'm so excited. All right. Well, everybody have a good week. We'll talk again soon. Bye.
