Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I have ADHD, Joy is autistic, and we are letting our hyper fixations fly. Today, we are fixating on the Kennedy curse.
Speaker: Welcome back, everyone. Hello. so we are today going to continue talking through the conspiracies around Robert F. Kennedy's assassination.
Speaker: We talked about some of like the weird evidence and the other theories about a so another gunman talked about like trajectory of bullets and things like that.
Speaker: But today we're going to talk about my favorite topic related to the conspiracies. And that is that Sirhan Sirhan was a Manchurian candidate.
Speaker: All righty. This one I have a hard time buying into. And I have to say, I've been very apprehensive in general about the conspiracy theories around this. It just seems like it was so cut and dry. Yeah.
Speaker: Serhan Serhan, small space, weapon it in his hand, seemed very obvious to me. So I will say, ah don't... by the Manchurian candidate theory. It's just real fun.
Speaker: no it is fun. Just to make that very clear. It is fun. I will conversely say that last time, i don't for those of you who listened, we talked a little bit about the potential a second government, the security guard who was present, and And we looked a little bit into his background. He had a second job working at the Lockheed factory or the Lockheed aircraft nearby, which had a CIA operation going on in it. And it was connected to the U-2 spy plane. And that was more enticing to me.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. As a potential conspiracy. Yes. And I didn't. So not saying I necessarily believe it either, but it was fun for me. That was fun for me. Yes. That's the rabbit hole you would have gone down.
Speaker: Well, let's bore you then and talk about me and drink. That is funny because i had had I gone further into the whole U2 and Spire operations that we're USSR and the different photographs that you would have. donely Yeah, oh I was getting a little bored. I was like, that's a lot of numbers and letters. You're just putting together.
Speaker: ah yeah All right, let's go. All right. polka dot dress. Here we go. So we talked a little bit about the definition of Manchurian candidate last time. It's basically somebody who has been brainwashed by government entity. who can't, who's used as ah basically a human weapon in yeah political assassinations, more or less.
Speaker: Your definition was much better. Yeah. And now there is like something truly behind this also. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. Not just, not just the movie. And I believe lot's taken from, you've ever researched or looked into Project or Operation Paperclip. Yep.
Speaker: You got a book about Operation Paper? I had a book and it was right next to me, so that's why I had to bring that up. I am We're a podcast so nobody can see that I just am sitting here and yanked out a book about Operation Paper. It was perfect. No, like...
Speaker: MKUltra, Operation Paperclip, like all of this stuff has always fascinated me. um And I think it's because that, like, it's been proven to have actually happened. Not necessarily that anything has come from these things that government people were trying to do, but that there were tests being done on human beings to try to create these things. And I think that's why the conspiracies are so interesting because, like, on paper nothing worked. But how could we trust that? who Maybe something did work. So that's what I got, like, super into. Well, I think that's why I got the book, too, because you do find that really interesting.
Speaker: And I question it a lot, um but obviously see that there is definitely something to it. so Yeah. And what happens normally with you and I is that you are interested in something. I find it boring. Then I attempt to get interested in it and then I get crazy interested in it. So that is why I have the book and that is why I plan. I still, the whole MKUltra thing doesn't quite click in my head, but yeah.
Speaker: No, there was another topic I wanted to do. and now, of course, I can't remember it, but it like led into some of the MKUltra stuff. So we'll like, we'll definitely come back to it at some point in different series. um Because a lot of the things that I accidentally get obsessed with, I'm like, oh, that relates back to Project Favorite Clipper or things like that.
Speaker: Yeah. We may have to do a whole podcast on that. Which I would totally do. So let's actually get into it. So the LAPD, it was said, recorded everything related to the case.
Speaker: After Bobby was shot on a recording, someone was heard saying, quote, hold him. We don't want another Oswald. Which totally makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. To me.
Speaker: there's There's, yeah, totally makes sense. And does not seem in the least bit absurd, yeah, to have heard on a recording. As we talked about last time, there are still evidentiary discrepancies that That happened. So while they were in the mindset of like, we got to catch this guy, also then led to mistakes that they probably should have learned from with Oswald, like collecting evidence appropriately and counting bullets.
Speaker: So before all of this happened, there had been longstanding rumors that the CIA had started a program to create Manchurian candidates to weaponize against political enemies.
Speaker: So I got a definition from the Cambridge Dictionary that defined a Maitrean candidate as, quote, a person who is not loyal to or who harms their own country or political party because they are under the control or influence of another country or party.
Speaker: So let's talk about CIA at the Ambassador Hotel. Multiple witnesses claimed that there were three men at the Ambassador Hotel that identified themselves as CIA operatives.
Speaker: The theory is that Sirhan Sirhan was programmed by the CIA to commit the murder. Sirhan Sirhan would have been unaware of his actions at the time and had his mind wiped immediately after completing his mission.
Speaker: Sirhan's attorneys have even accused the CIA of making him, quote, an involuntary participant. So that's the that's the ah kind of crux of the theory is he did it, but he was brainwashed to do it by the country's own government.
Speaker: So during um the Cold War, the CIA actively attempted to develop a mental programming, um like a mind control techniques to weaponize individuals against foreign an adversaries.
Speaker: And then- This whole effort was conducted under a highly classified illegal human experimentation known as Project MKUltra. We still don't know a ton about that that operation um and definitely something I'd like to look into more.
Speaker: But the concept um of programming is the concept is programming and a completely unwitting person to carry out an assassination or attack on command.
Speaker: often referred to in pop culture and pop culture as ministerian candidate. um And this was the primary heavily funded goal of the agency.
Speaker: The core objectives of Project MKUltra, it was authorized by no one cia director Alan Dulles. Our BFF. I know, 1953, never goes away. He's like evil where's Waldo and in history, in U.S. history. is um And this project and was headed by chemist Sidney Golib.
Speaker: Project was launched out of fear that the Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean captors had developed functional brainwashing techniques against American prisoners of war.
Speaker: So, of course, we have to try our own. Of course. the The CIA aimed to achieve the two main goals were to erase the mind, so wiping out the individual's existing personality, memories, and psychological defenses, and to reprogram the mind, insert a completely new set of behaviors, commands, and to alter personalities into a blank slate. Okay.
Speaker: um So all of this brings us to the woman in the polka dot dress. Many witnesses claim to have seen a woman in a polka dot dress around the hotel throughout the day. she Witnesses report she had been seen with Sirhan and another man by several witnesses.
Speaker: After the assassination, the woman and this other man were spotted fleeing, shouting, quote, we shot him, we shot him. Yeah. Okay, this part, christian this is it's it's commonly known in this specific quote. Who would say we shot him? I mean, I just i just think, you well, the the the thought is it could have been we got him.
Speaker: In reference to the shooter being caught. Not we shot him. It could have been like, got him. Oh, I was like, this is crazy. Who would have said that? I know.
Speaker: and Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining that one. So a campaign worker named Sandra Serrano, who we'll get into a little bit more, but she did say that when she asked the woman in the polka dot dress who she was talking about, she told her Kennedy.
Speaker: So that would lead credence to like the we shot him, we shot him. So ah campaign worker Sandra Serrano reported seeing the woman in the polka dot dress with two other men, one of whom was Sirhan.
Speaker: She said that the woman was wearing a white dress with black polka dots. She had seen her quite a bit before the shooting. So Sandra was very vocal about this, even going public, but would recant her story or parts of her story.
Speaker: She later would maintain that she was coerced by the LAPD to retract her statements. So she was not the only person who described the woman in this, described the same dress. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Multiple people talked about a woman that they had seen a white dress, blue, some called it navy polka dots. they But with like a bib type, um even some lace trim. So I had heard many people who had explained that. Everyone said she was a beautiful woman. Don't know if you're just, you know, in your mind you're creating. And I think she had a pixie haircut.
Speaker: I think so too. Which would have been the reason for her being beautiful. Of course. so I say to my aunt with a pixie haircut. Pixie haircut. Yeah. but um when yeah It becomes easier to understand why Sandra would have recanted her story when you actually go back and listen to the um interview that she had with the LAPD. Yeah, it's wild.
Speaker: It's very contentious, which is is nuts. um And yeah she's even said she felt like she was treated like a suspect, not a witness.
Speaker: They definitely... used coercion tactics and like they played, like they told her that she needed to retract her statements because Ethel, like she needed to leave Ethel alone. She needed to let Ethel grieve. So she should really recant these statements. So the widow can move on. It's like, yeah, ouch, ow, like, like pulling on the heartstrings.
Speaker: I'm going to go ahead and add some of the recording in here because I, it's unbelievable to me to, um, to hear how they were speaking to her. And to put myself in her shoes at the moment and you'd fully understand why she just would not want to be part of this, even though she felt she felt thought strongly about what she saw. And then that added credence to the whole case.
Speaker: She just didn't want to be part of it. Sandy, I'm not going to ask you any more questions. Not single one. do want to talk to you like brother. Look, I presume, don't know if I believe anyone. I'm Catherine. Are you Catherine?
Speaker: Yes and no. Yes and no. Does that that you don't have this? don't believe don't believe it. You know that for some reason this made up. here's what you have think about right now is that I think you it to Senator Kennedy, the late Senator Kennedy, to come forth, be woman about this. If he, and you don't know, and I don't know whether he's a witness right now this room watching what we're doing in here, his death.
Speaker: by keeping this thing up. have compassion for you. I want to know why. I want to know why you did what you did. This is a very serious thing. I've been thankful. No, no, no, no, Sandy. I don't know what I told you about it. You can't say you saw something when you didn't see it. Sandy, look, I can explain this to the investigators where you don't even have to talk to them and they won't talk to you.
Speaker: I can do this. But I know that as you get older, one of these days you're going to be a mother. You're going be a mother, you're going to have kids, and you know that you can't live a life of shame knowing what you're doing right now is wrong.
Speaker: Well, maybe you don't feel it, but when you get older you'll feel it.
Speaker: What plays in the name of Kennedy? I don't want to know the name of Kennedy, I'm going to get this right. If you know that this is for, I mean, Sandy, you know that this for, you might want to be pushing it out with smile down your face with smile, but you know that inside of your phone, I'm done with you. remember saying that.
Speaker: No, no, no, I'm talking what you have told here about saying person tell you we have shot Kennedy, and that's wrong. No, Sandy. Yeah. and And, you know, side note, as somebody who would identify myself as an activist for prison reform, when you listen to this, keep in mind why coerced confessions also happen.
Speaker: Yeah. this was And this was a coerced witness statement. Yeah. so Sandra would say she was worn down and she was at the point that she would say whatever they wanted And after this, the police stopped searching for the woman in the polka dot dress.
Speaker: In 1974, retired LAPD officer Paul Shar... I really need to practice pronunciation names before we start. Sharaga? Sharaga.
Speaker: Paul Sharaga said that he was approached by an elderly couple who said that they saw the woman in the polka dot dress and a man smiling and shouting, we shot him, we killed Kennedy, we shot him, we killed him.
Speaker: He said that he filed an official report and that report has since disappeared. Sirhan himself believes this theory. He believes that the woman in the polka dot dress was his handler who got him some coffee and then triggered him somehow.
Speaker: So do you remember talking in the last episode about him saying He got coffee and then felt a pinch. Yeah. So he doesn't specifically mention a polka dot dress. I think he does. No, he does. Does he say the polka dot dress? Oh, I thought he was an attractive woman. Okay.
Speaker: I think he does, yeah. But at the time. At the time, yeah. Yeah, it wasn't. He didn't say the polka dot dress. So he believes that he shot at Bobby. And when the rest of the kitchen was distracted, the real assassin fired and then just walked away. And he thinks his role was to serve as a distraction for the real assassin.
Speaker: Okay. Which, like, if you think about it, why would the CIA pick somebody who, like, didn't know how to shoot a gun great versus, like, their own CIA operative in there? Yeah.
Speaker: So hold on. Go through that with me one more time. So he says. Okay. Tell me. Give me certain. Okay. So he says that a woman was his handler. There was an attractive woman that was somehow the his the person in charge of handling him. But he only this is only in retrospect now that he believes. Yeah. okay Yeah.
Speaker: Yes. Who gave him coffee and then somehow triggered his Manchurian candidate that he... walked into the kitchen or was so like with this woman somehow fired at Bobby, but didn't hit him, but just fired one fired once. And then the rest of the kitchen went bananas.
Speaker: And the real assassin in the chaos was able to come in, Bobby, hit Bobby, while Sirhan's being tackled and more shots are going off and it's complete chaos. So he believes that his role was actually to serve as the distraction for whoever the real assassin comes.
Speaker: I mean, unlikely. Yeah. But I see where he's going. Sure. While under hypnosis, Sirhan would snap into, quote, range mode.
Speaker: So... Range mode, so Sir Unclaimed that just before the shots were fired, he thought he was at the target shooting range, hence range mode.
Speaker: um And he stated he saw concentric circles with targets in front of his eyes, which triggered his amnesia and that he did not even realize he had a real gun in his hand.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah, like something... would trigger And this is even during the hypnosis. Like something was said or done after the assassination that would trigger him into like snapping into a stance that he was like firing a gun.
Speaker: Interesting. Yeah. he, with this theory of range mode, ah the woman in the polka dot dress was controlling him. She led him to the pantry in the kitchen and used some sort of cue to put him into range mode.
Speaker: He later said he felt allured by the woman, saying, quote, I was consumed by her. And he didn't know he had a real gun at the time of the assassination.
Speaker: Hmm. Okay. Talk about. A little side-ish tangent, but kind of backing up some of the other things that have been said. A man named Allard Lowenstein was a New York congressman for one term from 1969 to 1971.
Speaker: He was close friends with Bobby, even helping him write Bobby's famous 1966 Day of Affirmation address that he gave at the University of Cape Town. Loewenstein initially believed the reported story that a lone gunman went crazy and shot Bobby.
Speaker: So he was one of the first public figures to express doubt of the official account of the assassination after he learned that Richard Nixon had a list of enemies and Loewenstein was number seven on it.
Speaker: um That's an interesting reason to Suddenly change your mind. Well, he believed if he, a single term congressman, ended up on the list, it wasn't crazy to believe that higher level names would be on this list, too.
Speaker: Nixon was willing to use the extent of his political power, including governmental agencies, to destroy his enemies. And it was Nixon's abuses of power that led Lowenstein to question the assassination account.
Speaker: He started researching and developing theories and things like that. And in 1975, he came forward saying that publicly that he did not believe that Sirhan was the sole shooter.
Speaker: He later discovered a report saying investigators should not take any more questions from him because he was questioning their account. So he was being kind of stonewalled from trying to figure all this stuff out.
Speaker: Hmm. Okay. Lowenstein was murdered in his Manhattan office on March 14th, 1980 by a man named Dennis Sweeney, who was mentally unstable and believed Lowenstein was somehow plotting against him.
Speaker: After killing Lowenstein, Sweeney very calmly waited for the police arrived to arrest him. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity and committed to inpatient psychiatric treatment for schizophrenia and was released in 2000 when it was determined that he was no longer a threat to the public or his Manchurian candidate wore off.
Speaker: Hmm. I don't know about Lowenstein. Yeah. It's just seems like maybe seems like maybe slightly selfish guy who inserted him. Perhaps he is. But you can't, like, when someone like that speaks out publicly against somebody and then dies, it's always like, okay, we have to ask the questions.
Speaker: But, no, you're right. That mysterious death always changes the trajectory the story. Whether related or not. And it's when people don't ask questions and it's just like, nope, this is what happened, that you're like, but wait. Yeah.
Speaker: All right, let's move on and talk about the Kennedy family opinions. We've alluded to this a little bit, but Bobby's son, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., believes that the second gunman was involved and it was likely the security guard whose last name was Caesar.
Speaker: and to this day, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. believes this so strongly that he is supportive of Sir Hand being paroled. And he's acted a ah toward it. He has gone to visit him. He has been present for his parole hearing, and he was an advocate for him to being paroled, which, again, Sirhan was not.
Speaker: I've got to say, if i was around mean if you've watched Sirhan being interviewed, have you seen much with him? He's a very affable person. You kind of want to believe him, and I can understand how he is a sympathetic person.
Speaker: guy. Yeah. Affable is a great word. That's the perfect word to describe. Yeah. Kathleen Kennedy Townsend has also expressed doubt that Sirhan was the killer or at least that he acted alone.
Speaker: Most of the family has stayed quiet, showing no interest in reopening any sort of investigation. And Ethel and most of the other members of the family opposed Sirhan being released, like truly believing he's the only killer.
Speaker: Sirhan has been denied parole, was denied parole 15 times by 2016. At his 16th appearance in 2021, Sirhan was recommended for parole, citing that he no longer posed a threat to society.
Speaker: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Douglas Kennedy were both supportive of this, but Bobby's other six living children opposed parole. Bobby's other, these six other children petitioned the parole board and Governor Gavin Newsom to reverse the recommendation, and he did as they wished.
Speaker: That family could just never agree on anything. Never. Never. Around the 50th anniversary of his father's death, Bobby decided to meet with Sir Han against his family's wishes.
Speaker: He left this meeting fully believing that Sir Han was wrongly convicted and completely accepting the second gunman theory. In 2022, Gavin Newsom denied another bid for parole.
Speaker: And then 2023, Sir Han was denied again. and I believe it was in the one of the later parole applications. He even didn't waived his right to contest deportation if he is paroled.
Speaker: So he would be sent back to to Palestine if he got paroled. Like, he wouldn't. Yeah, I think it was. aga yeah Actually, I think it's Jordan now. Jordan. go pal He wouldn't argue with that.
Speaker: So ultimately, this is my last note, and it makes me laugh. i think I think it's telling of the American system, the patriarchy and racism, that the most guilt is placed on a woman, the woman in the polka dot dress, and an immigrant, Sirhan Sirhan.
Speaker: I don't think that's a fair statement. Right? So wrap up. What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think happened? What do you think the truth is? I think Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy.
Speaker: No, I do think that like the evidence of like the woman in the polka dot dress is compelling because so many people said like, yeah, I saw this. I saw this. There are threads you could pull of like the pinch that he could have been injected with something and that was the trigger. And it's just the thing of, we kind of talked about with JFK. It's like, if people had just done a straightforward investigation and done it properly and well, there wouldn't be these questions, but because things were missed or documented, strangely, it opens the door to all of this.
Speaker: So I, I think that Sirhan Sirhan took his rage about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict out on Bobby Kennedy.
Speaker: Yeah, I think i maybe coincidence that he happened to go to the gun range that day. But I do think being at the parade for the um so the anniversary or the anniversary ah for the Israeli-Arab Six-Day War got him fired up.
Speaker: There was really – I didn't – no pun intended there. Yeah. um I think that got coupled with having a few too many Tom Collins, being a little drunk, um everything sort of falling into place while he had the gun in his hand in the moment. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: ah his emotions taking over. I don't see it as something that had been a long planned out. don't, I don't see him as a no bitter human being. I think it was very, I think it was very impulsive and fueled by being drunk. Yeah. It's hard to be in a small place with a gun in your hand, feet from a person and not be found guilty as, as the one who. Right. no and And I think nobody did themselves any favors by meeting everything done so fast and perfectly. And and ultimately, it is their own fault that anybody questions the true guilt or innocence of Sirhan Sirhan.
Speaker: And hopefully, assassination investigations have continued to improve throughout the decades. We would hope, but I have questions about some recent ones.
Speaker: but We're not going to get into that. I wasn't even thinking that before I said it, but oh my gosh, you're right. Oh, goodness. All right. See? Well, that was a short that was a short episode. no is You know what? It's all right. We did not give you $2,800.
Speaker: twenty eight conspiracy theory episodes about Bobby Kennedy. I'm sure we could do more, but I, I think the, uh, I don't think as many are as interesting as like the second gunman or mentoring candidate. those are I think there are other small things, but the major ones we, we talked through pretty well.
Speaker: And we need to move on to other topics. yeah Well, we will someday. Well, we're moving on to a new family member. all right. Who we talking about next? We're talking about Ted Kennedy next. Okay. Okay.
Speaker: We're going to start talking about, you know, his childhood, his marriage, things like that. And then we are going to do a full episode about the Chappaquiddick incident where Mary Jo Kopechny lost her life.
Speaker: But I've got a weird, like, Ted's tough for me. um Ted ended up ultimately being the only of Joe and Rose's sons to survive this.
Speaker: to get to the age of 50, certainly, but he, um stepped up for his nieces and nephews in a huge way. And so that always leaves, like, I I'm very torn on him because like, I do think he murdered a woman by negligence, but, but also like, he really, i think was a really good embodiment of what it is to take care of your family during crises. And so that's where I'm like very torn about Ted Kennedy. Goes back to the discussion we have over and over again about how nobody's all good or all bad.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And Ted is the definition of that, I'd say. Because boy, he treated his wife horribly. Well, I look forward. I don't know a ton about him. I i remember seeing him in the congressional earrings and stuff as a young person when I would watch, being very bored and not knowing how exactly he was related to the family. Yeah. Actually, that was my experience ah with, like where however long ago it was. I don't remember when the movie Chappaquiddick came out. And I took my mom to see it because she remembered all of that happening. So i was like, well, let's go see it. And um she had to explain to me. was like, okay, what Kennedy is that? I don't understand. And then even in the movie, it was like,
Speaker: Joe senior talking through, like talking to him and stuff like that about his brothers. and I was like, wait, who is he Who's this? Like, who's this person? Who's that? And that's part of the reason actually that two episodes ago, I had to go back through all of the different children of Robert Nethel. Cause it gets so confusing. And I did tell you how um my daughter, who is our editor did not realize that the current RFK junior was Bobby Kennedy's actual son. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. There's a lot. I do remember I keep promising I would make a timeline of everything we're talking about. And I did make one and I just need to stop because that Robert F. Kennedy keeps doing things that I want to add to my timeline. And I'm like, I have to, I have to just post it. I have to be done. I'm done. I'm done. I'm posting it. Anything that happens from here on out, you guys need it won't be on my timeline. Yeah.
Speaker: I've been hearing a lot of little whispers about him running for president again. So maybe there's something big to add. ah Well, on that note.
Speaker: all right, guys. Talk to you next week. See you later. Thank you. Bye.
