Transcript
Speaker: Going with the flow is a great way to drown. ah Something I say a lot. So a relationship is a set of agreements. You determine what those agreements are. Hmm.
Speaker: there's There's no studies that show us that any particular relationship has more or less security or causes the end more than the other. There is numerous studies that show us relationship satisfaction and sexual satisfaction are pretty equitable across the board from monogamy to any version of non-monogamy. So it you know if you're looking at trying something like opening up your relationship as like a temporary thing is really, really important that you talk about that, not only with each other, but with anybody else that you're interested in interacting with, right? Because consensual non-monogamy is not a synonym for casual dating.
Speaker: You can casually date as a monogamous person or non-monogamous person. If you're interested in having multiple, you know, important romantic sexual relationships simultaneously, you have to be able to talk about those things with any number of partners that you have. But if you're only interested in having, you know, one romantic partner, for example, but multiple sexual partners, then it's important to be really forthright about that when you're meeting people out and about, hey, I'm available, you know, for physical fun.
Speaker: You know, i only play with my partner and other people, or I only play solo and my partner's not involved with other people. Whatever that looks like, these are the conversations that we're practicing if you're exploring any version of consensual non-monogamy. And it's very similar to like we were talking about at the top of this conversation, the conversations I wish more people were having in general, even if you're dating from monogamous lens.
Speaker: So just what are you available for and what are you looking for? If a couple is opening up a relationship that's been monogamous up to this point, there's a a lot of conversations that need to happen. Right. And it's not this one moment. And then, you know, free for all.
Speaker: Anything's on the table. You're negotiating your relationship agreements. And one of them can be about how you're interacting or not interacting with other people. But relationship agreements, even in monogamous relationships, will change over time based on different needs. Have you had children? Is one of you being called to work out of state? like There's a number of things that can change over a lifetime with somebody.
Speaker: And this can be one of the things that you talk about, right? So yeah, those those agreements can shift and change, just like our boundaries can shift and change in our lifetimes based on our needs. Again, the ability is being able to have the conversations. Do we have a regular check-in?
Speaker: are we Are we checking in with each other on a monthly, quarterly, you know, whatever basis? Hey, how are you feeling about everything? Do we need to readdress anything? Is anything coming up? Oh, hey, we had a point of conflict where, you know, we we misunderstood an agreement and you I felt that you crossed the line and you didn't realize you did. Do we read do we need to re-discuss what that is and make sure we both understand that? Have we created a repair process? Yeah. This sounds like to some people like a lot of work.
Speaker: ah This is the work of relationship, whether you have one partner or 10, right? Like these are the conversations we need to be having because our relationship is an ongoing, living, breathing, growing thing, just like we are.
Speaker: doesn't have to be another full-time job, but if you're not practicing these things, you're not you're not practicing. So you don't have that skillset. So it's going to seem like a lot. Think about learning a new language.
Speaker: Right. When you first start learning a new language, oh, my God, we have to the verb tenses and they like like the sentence structures are totally different. Oh, my God, it's it's so much until you become fluent and then you're just thinking in that language.
Speaker: So it's just like learning any new skill set up front. It's going to feel like a lot. And it's going to feel alien. and it's really easy to avoid all of that when we have a socially prescribed, you know, one size fits all relationship, because I can just say like, oh, yeah, we're together.
Speaker: um so I'm going to assume that you understand that to mean the same thing that I do, because we've signed up for the thing that everyone's supposed to sign up for. So we don't have to have all these conversations. And that's where I see a lot of the conflict happen where couples are coming to me for support.
Speaker: But I mean, when people are non-monogamous, and this is kind of leading into the jealousy topic, are they do you see any difference between the couples who are very explicit about what they're doing with their other partners, their other physical partners?
Speaker: Do you see that having an impact on like Is less more when people are open? Should they not be detailed with their partner about what's taking place without their partner? Obviously, I'm talking i'm not talking about when their partner is present in the room.
Speaker: Should people kind of keep it to themselves what they're doing with their other partners? Or should they tell their partner? Or is it just does it vary couple by couple? Yeah.
Speaker: So what you're talking about is disclosure, right? Like how much do I want to know about what my partner's doing with other people? That kind of question. Right. So the short answer is, yeah, it can vary couple by couple, relationship by relationship, moment in time to moment in time. Right. So like you might your partner might have another partner who you really don't like.
Speaker: And you don't want to hear anything. And you know you know you you do you. Not my jam. As long as you know there's no drama. It doesn't impact our relationship. like I'd rather not. you might They might have a partner that you think is also sexy. And you want to hear all the details.
Speaker: But these are also other people. right These aren't sex toys with a pulse. So they also need to consent to having their private information shared. right So it's not just a matter of tell me everything.
Speaker: Right. Like I really enjoy hearing about my partner having a wonderful time. I get a lot of joy knowing my partner is experiencing joy or pleasure. I love to be a part of it but I can't always be.
Speaker: And I would rather him have all of the wonderful experiences that life has to offer rather than be limited based on my availability. But I only want to hear what's consensual. Like if if he's having an experience with somebody who is very private and doesn't want details shared, I don't want to hear anything like that.
Speaker: He can share his experience with me. I really enjoyed this. I felt very powerful. I felt very sexy. I got to try something new that I've never tried before. And I'd like us to try it now. Ooh, yes. Thank you, please. Like within the bounds of everyone's comfort, right? It's really, really important to have those conversations when you're dating other people. Are you comfortable with me sharing anything or everything with my partner? Is that okay? Do you want to hear about them? Like these are people, right? i want to be really clear. These are not sex toys with a pulse.
Speaker: These are people. So they also have their own boundaries and desires and interests. So some you know some couples don't want to hear anything. Some couples want to hear everything. and It also, like I said, can vary based on the person, right? You might have a different experience that with one person than another and feel differently about what you want to know.
Speaker: So again, i know I feel like a broken record, but it really comes down to, do you have these conversations? Have you talked about um not just you know how much you want to know, when do you want to hear about it?
Speaker: Where? What kind of environment? Do you want me to wait until after the date and we're having a romantic time together? Do you not want to hear about anything until you and I are having sex? And maybe it turns you on. It's all tell you while we're having sex. Do you want to hear about it before or after? you like they You have to create. You get to. I shouldn't say have. You get to create how you have those conversations. Yeah.
Speaker: This is so fascinating. at Like, to talk about it while having sex is just like a very funny idea, but it also makes a lot of sense, though, too. Some people really enjoy that. It's a turn on for a lot of people. Yeah, for improvising, too, maybe, or just like, yeah, just hearing about it and visualizing.
Speaker: So why do you say that jealousy can be utilized as a powerful tool for building trust, intimacy, and deeper human connection? How you come up with this hypothesis? And what is the data behind your hot take? Because I consider that a hot take.
Speaker: Thank you I'll take a hot take. Yeah, I mean, there's there's a plethora of data. I'm in the midst of a 111 study meta-analysis. all the research that currently exists or the majority of the research peer reviewed, et cetera, um, that currently exists around what we call jealousy, both from a physiological, so physical lens, neurological lens and a psychological lens, but also a sociological lens, because we have a social script around what jealousy means, not just what happens in our body, what happens in our mind and our emotions, And also what that means. And that's a very, very specifically a social thing.
Speaker: That's not a physical or an emotional thing. There is a social structure around how we interact with and what we believe about the physical and emotional experience we call jealousy. so Let's start with what jealousy is. okay So a lot of people use jealousy in place of the word envy. So it's really important to understand what jealousy actually isn't if we're going to understand what it is.
Speaker: So the easiest way to break this down is envy is desire. It's wanting something that you don't already have. I'm so jealous of your car. I want that car. No, that's envy. I'm envious of you. You have the car I've always wanted.
Speaker: right It's wanting something that someone else has. Jealousy, on the other hand, is fear and specifically the fear of losing something that you already have. So the the best way, i love a metaphor.
Speaker: So the way I describe the difference between envy and jealousy is say your neighbor bought a new car and it is it's your dream car. It's the car you've always wanted. You want that car. You're so envious of them that they have the car. That's the thing that you want.
Speaker: Now, imagine that they're taking your partner for a ride around the block in that new car, but you're afraid that they might not come back. That is jealousy. Something else is going on. You're afraid of losing your partner to a perceived rival. So jealousy is a three-party experience. There's you, the person or the thing that you have, you know, the the relationship and the perceived rival.
Speaker: Envy is two-party. You and the thing that you want or the person that has the thing that you want. Right. Right. Two way desire versus fear of loss. So jealousy is the fear of loss. What can that look like in romantic relationships? And based on, you know, extensive research, my own private practice with coaching clients, my own personal lived experience, I break down romantic jealousy into four different types.
Speaker: Insecurity, comparison or competition, fear of abandonment and distrust. So insecurity is, you know, I'll use an example from my own life. There was a period of time I went through a bunch of health challenges. I wasn't able to, you know, take care of my body, take care of myself the way I'm used to. it Wasn't able to get to the gym, wasn't able to eat properly, wasn't feeling very good in myself. And I was noticing that showing up in my relationship and it was causing jealousy, the fear of losing anxiety. my partner, right? I'm afraid, you know, I'm not showing up the way I'm used to showing. I don't feel very good about myself.
Speaker: That was data. That was information. Oh, maybe I need some more affirmations from my partner, some more physical affections, some more, you know, words of support, whatever that is. Maybe they'll, maybe if, You know, they encourage me to go to the gym with them. I can get back on the horse or whatever that is. That's data.
Speaker: Rather than trying to control and avoid the experience I'm having, I lean in and I learn more about myself. And then I get to go to my partner with a vulnerable request. Vulnerability is a requirement for intimacy.
Speaker: We don't get intimacy without vulnerability. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So if that's insecurity, then we move into comparison or competition. That's sort of the perceived rival can kind of come in rather than the the third party being an older version of myself. There's somebody else out there, right? they I've decided they're funnier than me, you know more successful, sexier, whatever it is.
Speaker: I'm afraid I'm going to lose my partner to that person. I'm in comparison or I'm in competition with them. Their enoughness is more than mine. What have you. That's what comparison or competition can look like. And again, data.
Speaker: Is this telling me something that, you know, maybe would be worth my time adjusting in my own life? Not from a place of I'm not good enough. I'm like, oh, actually, you know what? I have not been taking great care of myself. I could, you know, do a better job about that. would That would feel better, you know? So again, it's all data. And then we go into fear of abandonment. So that is that's like an attachment wound or stuff from our childhood, really deeply rooted, potentially traumatic experiences that bring up that experience of jealousy.
Speaker: And then we move into distrust, which you can think of it like an insecurity in the relationship. And it can it can be a couple different things, right? You could be experiencing actual, you know, distrustful behavior in that relationship. Maybe there's a pattern of, you know, they don't come home and they say they're going to come home. They don't call and they say they're going to call. There's an inconsistency going on.
Speaker: Really important data. Or maybe you've experienced infidelity or lying or whatever else in previous relationships. And now your brain is trained to look for that in your current relationship, even if that's not exactly what's happening, right? Your brain is a powerful pattern recognition machine and a meaning making machine. So if you're if you're in the story of, you know, people cheat, deception, deception, Your brain is really, really good at finding proof of that and kind of projecting and layering on, you know, our previous experience to what's actually happening now. And so then you hear some talk to your girlfriends, too. Don't mean interrupt. And if you talk to your bitter girlfriends, they're going to be like, he's in the street. Yeah. vet your sources of wisdom. Who is advising you? Do they have a better example of what you're going through? Are you aspiring to emulate the types of relationships that they have? It's not, maybe not the best advice. ah ah
Speaker: Absolutely. So when did you know that you wanted to become an international certified relationship coach and How has your career impacted your romantic relationships? Like, does your job intimidate potential partners?
