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Episode 230: Meichi Ng, the Barely Functional Adult behind 'Barely Functional Adult'
131 Plays4 years ago
Meichi Ng (@barelyfunctionaladult) came by the show to talk about her incredible illustrated memoir Barely Functional Adult: It'll All Make Sense Eventually (Harper Perennial).
To support the show, you can now become a member at patreon.com/cnfpod. Keep the conversation going on social media @CNFPod and check out the show notes at brendanomeara.com.
In this episode, we talk about the scary nature of publishing, how she developed her character for the comic, quitting, and holding onto positive messages in a negative world.
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Transcript
Introduction to Writer's House Pittsburgh Residency
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey, a special call out to journalists and non-fiction writers who could use some extra support in these unpredictable times. Writer's House Pittsburgh is accepting applications for a six-month residency starting as early as January 2021. The Writer's House is a physical home and long-term residency seeking to provide housing stability, mentorship, and community when you need it most.
00:00:30
Speaker
Head over to writershousepittsburgh.org to learn more. Applications will close on November 30th.
Introduction to the Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:00:39
Speaker
That's like in a couple days. So get on it. And then I quickly reverted back to anxiety. So that's where I'm still at. Still anxiety. Yeah, I live here.
00:00:56
Speaker
Well, hey, didn't see you there. It's Brendan O'Mara, hey hey, and this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. A lot of you know that, maybe some of you don't. Sometimes they are purely writers, and sometimes they draw amazing little comics.
Interview with Michi Ning: Her Work and Graphic Memoir
00:01:19
Speaker
That's where today's guest, Michi Ning, comes from. She's the genius behind Barely Functional Adult, her webcomic on Instagram. It's also the title of her graphic memoir, Barely Functional Adult. It'll all make sense eventually. It is published by Harper Perennial.
00:01:37
Speaker
It's my favorite book of the year so far. I've read a lot of good ones, and I've even read some illustrated ones, which I also love, but this one for some reason really resonated with me. It's cute, it's heartfelt, and it's hilarious. In this interview we talk about closing the creative gap, her workflow from idea to drawing the comic to posting it on Instagram.
00:02:02
Speaker
resigning instead of quitting in sort of the dichotomy of the defining what it means to quit. Holding on to positive messages in a negative world and the scary nature of hitting publish.
Supporting the Podcast through Patreon
00:02:18
Speaker
But before we get to that, you're gonna wanna keep the conversation going on social media at CNF Pod. Link up to the show and I'll give you those digital fist bumps.
00:02:26
Speaker
And get this, CNFers, you can now, starting now, starting yesterday, you can become a member at patreon.com slash CNFpod. The link will be everywhere.
00:02:42
Speaker
I'm excited by what I can offer. It'll be a learning process on my end to see what works and what doesn't. So it might be a bit fluid, but I think I've got a good handle of the value that I'm trying to offer people who want to go a little bit farther.
00:03:00
Speaker
I know we're already asking for your time, and of course your support, and begging on my knees for reviews and such, but now I'm gonna say, why don't you get out that wallet of yours? Let's see how that works. But like I said, I'm very excited. I think I'm offering some good bang for buck things, and it's great. I think it's gonna be great.
00:03:23
Speaker
You know, I start each day by asking, you know, what can I do to better serve the listeners of this show? I think my offerings check many of those boxes. So I hope you'll check it out Again patreon.com slash CNF
00:03:39
Speaker
And you know that means one and only one thing. The audio mag is done. And I'll be publishing it probably next week, but I don't wanna promise a day. This edition of the audio mag on isolation is free.
Launching an Audio Magazine
00:03:56
Speaker
But subsequent issues will only be available to members of the Patreon community. So see it as like a subscription to the audio mag. Just the entry level tier and then all the other tiers after.
00:04:06
Speaker
But keep that in mind. If you dig the first issue, you'll want to be a member to hear and support the next ones. It's probably going to be twice a year at first and then keep adding another and it'd be nice to do four of these a year eventually, but one to two a year is what I can handle at this point. They take a lot of work and a lot of time. So being a member means every dollar you spend supports the production of this show. The audio mag, of course,
00:04:36
Speaker
And it might give me a little more independence to make more cool stuff for you. Exclusive content, maybe the interview of someone who's sort of in the moment, who has a book coming out, then maybe another interview where I just go and call someone who's been on the show in the past and have them on as another thing in the middle of the week, where it's just kind of like a working it out thing. Like, yeah, what are you working on? What's on your mind? Let's unpack a few things while you're between projects.
00:05:04
Speaker
That might be kind of a cool addition, but logistically, I just can't do it. It's enough to do this. Every episode is a good solid 20 hours of labor, research and production and this. To add another one in the mix is unfeasible or infeasible.
The Effort Behind Podcast Production
00:05:25
Speaker
I don't know one of those words.
00:05:28
Speaker
So I'm offering some great things. Even the book coaching mentorship tier is a bit of a steal if you do the math. So you might want to consider being a member. Get used to me talking it up. OK. Good. OK. It's time. It's time seeing efforts. Let's get let's get right into it. Let's do this. Here is Michining.
Impact of Social Media on Webcomics
00:06:04
Speaker
This might be just kind of a fun jumping off point. With your barely functioning adult Instagram you put together a little cartoon on social media and you're struggling with it or whether you deem it a value. So what is your relationship these days to social media given that it's basically what propelled your comic?
00:06:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's always something I struggle with a little bit in the sense that I think it's a great medium to kind of share out your work. But at the same time, having written the book, I've kind of leaned a little bit more towards longer form stories. So I feel like now I'm in this weird transition phase where I always want to write the longer stories, but then I'm always trying to be mindful that I only have 10 panels to communicate everything on Instagram.
00:06:56
Speaker
And what is the appeal for you with the longer stories and teasing out things as far as you can take it?
00:07:04
Speaker
I think it's just the ability to go further with the story. I feel like in Instagram you have only so much attention span and you have like only so much time to speak to someone. Whereas when you're telling a story in like a long form setting, like in a book format, you kind of get that time to like warm up with the story and then kind of like do a few tangents and then kind of circle back. And I feel like that journey is a lot more engaging and compelling for me to write as well.
00:07:32
Speaker
I think at first I was doing comics that were single panels only because I feel like that was a very limited comfort zone I was happy with. But then I think as time went on, I was more comfortable telling longer stories. And I think that's, in some ways it's a lot easier to tell longer stories because you have a lot more runway to kind of communicate what you want to say. But I think it's just a matter of practicing and just kind of playing around and seeing what works and what you like and what other people like, et cetera.
00:08:02
Speaker
And in this climate as an artist or creator, writer, cartoonist,
00:08:10
Speaker
You know, we often need social media to broadcast the work, but at the same time, it sometimes feels like it lands on deaf ears. It doesn't feel like it's working. You feel like you're being taken advantage of or you're at the mercy of algorithms. So in sort of piggybacking on what we were talking about earlier, you know, how have you been reconciling your relationship to social media and maybe just catering your own craft differently just based on your conflicted feelings with it?
Storytelling vs. Social Media Analytics
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Yeah, I think it's interesting that you say that because I think that whenever I get messages from new comic artists that they want to know what it's like to post on Instagram and what it's like to kind of put your work out there, my number one advice is always to kind of
00:08:55
Speaker
Take the analytics with a grain of salt and I say this because like the marketing side of me wants to go Okay, let's post at the best time. Let's only post things that people like let's focus a lot on what's being received Well, whereas I think that leaning too much towards those analytics really takes the fun out of it and kind of in some ways guys guides your kind of guides your story in a way that you might not appreciate and
00:09:22
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in the sense that you're following likes as opposed to following what you want to tell story-wise. And I think that's sort of a dangerous territory to tread towards. Yeah, and that gets to the point of really just following your taste. And you're probably drawing and writing things that appeal to, you know, probably first and foremost yourself. So how did you develop your taste as a writer and as an illustrator?
Understanding Personal Taste in Storytelling
00:09:50
Speaker
I don't even know if it's fully developed at this point, but a lot of it is just looking at what you like and then doing the work of figuring out why you like it. So I think when we look at comics, there's always a list of comics that you like, right? There's always things that you look at and you're like, I like this, but you don't necessarily know why. And for me, a lot of it was trying to kind of aggregate all of those comics that I like and then figuring out why I like it and trying to replicate the feeling that it gives me.
00:10:21
Speaker
And who are some of the comic artists and illustrators that really appealed to your taste and helped you jumpstart your own drawing?
00:10:35
Speaker
I think Calvin and Hobbs was a big part of my childhood. Yeah, a lot of people kind of grew up with that. And I think that that really guided me in terms of thinking about comics that don't necessarily have to be funny, but more so speak to the heart. I really like hyperbole in half. So that was how I learned how to do this format of like half comics, half writing and being able to understand that I can tell stories in this format.
00:11:01
Speaker
Um, and then a lot, a lot of different web comic artists that are out in the Instagram universe right now.
Character Design Challenges
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Speaker
And so how did you arrive at your particular drawing style and you know, in this amazing little character that essentially represents you?
00:11:17
Speaker
So I need to let you say that because at the start, I was kind of just going for the simplest form of character I could use to kind of convey my thoughts. So it started out with a blob because I was trying to keep it gender neutral. And I wanted to make a character that would be relatable to everyone. And I was also under this silly impression that it would be easier and somehow
00:11:42
Speaker
uh, more, uh, I guess like easier to draw and quicker to draw if I stayed with like a little blob. But as it turns out, it actually is so much harder for me to draw that blob than to draw a person or like a figure character. Um, just because it's, it's one of those things where when you look at it, it looks wrong when you draw it the wrong way, but you don't know why. So I've ended up redrawing that character so many times over the years that I, I kind of a little bit regret that decision at the start.
00:12:12
Speaker
And when you're sitting down at your drafting table or your desk, what are the tools at your disposal when you're looking to just kind of make a cartoon from the tools that you've got in your hand from concept to publishing it? What are those steps? I'd love to hear your process. Yeah, for sure. So sometimes it depends on the idea and where it comes and what I'm doing when that idea comes.
00:12:41
Speaker
And I'm not too strict on process, but typically it starts with me jotting down notes on my phone, just like keywords or themes or maybe dialogue, and then followed with me drying the comics by hand in like a little scrappy notebook, and then transposing that onto an iPad. So I use an iPad and like an iPad pencil, and then moving that onto my comic. And then usually an Instagram comic probably takes me around like three hours, although it definitely does not look like it.
00:13:12
Speaker
And I understand too that you work as a product designer, as your day job and everything.
Balancing Day Job and Comics
00:13:20
Speaker
So how do you balance the day job with the art you do?
00:13:26
Speaker
Um, I feel like I use a different part of my brain. So when I'm in my day job, I'm using more of like analytical side of myself. Uh, whereas when I'm doing my comics, I'm kind of reverting back to my childhood self. Um, so in that sense, I feel like I get more enjoyment out of doing comics. Um, and if I could do it as a full-time job, I definitely would.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's something I like talking about with people who bounds the day job with this creative thing they do.
00:13:57
Speaker
You know, sometimes people, and I know I feel this way at times, will feel kind of resentful or bitter that maybe there's a failure to launch or you're looking over your shoulder and other people seem to really have all their shit together. And meanwhile, you're kind of toiling away with this day job that is putting food on the table, but it's not really ultimately the thing that you wish was 100% subsidizing you.
00:14:23
Speaker
So how have you reconciled that and how do you just deal with maybe some of those toxic feelings that creep in when you're trying to balance the two?
00:14:36
Speaker
I think that I'm a bit luckier in the sense that I don't hate my day job, so it's not as much of a contrast between working on comics as well as working on my day job. I think there are different things that I like and dislike about both things, so in the sense that I'm able to kind of
00:14:54
Speaker
know that everything I don't like about my day job, I can kind of get fulfillment from my moonlighting as like a comic artist and like vice versa, right? Like it's just knowing that everything comes at a cost and knowing that I can't do comics full time, but that's okay because there are things I'm getting from both things.
00:15:13
Speaker
I love your author bio in the back of the book, at least the galley I have. It says you live in a teeny tiny apartment in Vancouver. It's really important for artists to have a space, as Virginia Woolf might say. It's sort of like a room of one's own. So how have you manifested a place in your apartment when you come home from work that is fertile for your creativity?
00:15:44
Speaker
Um, I would say that I don't do that. So for my comics, I actually get most of my ideas from conversations with friends. So I will be having a one-on-one conversation with someone and then I'll suddenly whip out my phone and start taking notes and they'll just kind of look at me and be like comic idea. And I'm like, yeah, sorry.
00:16:02
Speaker
Um, so I don't really, I feel like when I'm sitting in a room and waiting for the ideas to come, they never come. Uh, so I kind of gave up on having that space. I have a space set up in the sense that it's easier for me to work and go through the process of like, I already have my idea. I'm going to take it from paper to iPad to computer, but I don't necessarily have like a thinking spot inside my home.
00:16:26
Speaker
And at what point did your webcomic start to gain steam and what was that moment like for you when suddenly it was this thing in your head and it was like, oh, I'll post it online. And then all of a sudden it really starts gaining traction. What was that moment like for you?
00:16:45
Speaker
Um, it was pretty exciting and it happened pretty gradually. So I wouldn't say that it was like a one day spike. Um, I think I started off posting really casually because I was kind of like, you know, I used to joke with my friends and like all my followers will see this and it was like 80 followers. So.
00:17:02
Speaker
I think at the start, I wasn't really mindful of it. But then over time, I noticed that a lot more people were paying attention. And I was kind of more conscious about what I was putting out there because I realized like, oh, hey, there are eyes on this. And I should probably think it through a little bit more. But I wouldn't say that there was a moment where I realized that there were people following. It was just slowly over time, I just kind of like worked at it and kept going and then here I am.
00:17:30
Speaker
At the start of the book, you wrote sort of the opening epigraph, if you will. Don't forget, we write our own stories and we can write whatever the hell we want. So how did you arrive at that as sort of the epigraph of the book?
00:17:46
Speaker
I think that looking back it's probably a bit more irreverent than I might have wanted it to be but I
Empowering Readers through Resilient Stories
00:17:57
Speaker
think it's just the knowledge that I wanted something to be empowering at the start of the book and I wanted people to read these stories and sure like there's some stories that make you feel okay that was something that terrible that happened and I'm
00:18:11
Speaker
I'm kind of not feeling so great about it, but I also wanted to let people know that, okay, sure, maybe something not so wonderful happened, but it's still your story and you still got the reins, so run with it.
00:18:24
Speaker
When you were starting to compose the book, of course, it's really, it's ambitious, it's big, it's not, you know, it's, you know, five to 10 panels on Instagram. It's, you know, you're talking big, big chunks of pros, but also lots of drawings. So what was that experience like for you to really start to really stretch your legs and organize it and get your head around it so you could propel these stories forward?
00:18:55
Speaker
Yeah, it was really hard for me because it was one of those things where I knew I wanted to write a book, but I had no skills to do so. So meeting that gap and kind of like closing it was really hard. I was lucky in the sense that I had an agent who knew what she was doing and she was able to guide me through the book proposal. So when I was writing the book proposal, which in itself took almost a year, I kept writing and rewriting and trying to structure my story.
00:19:23
Speaker
I knew that I wanted to write short stories because I have a very short attention span. So I know that I wanted to make something that someone could read and pick up and just read one chapter as like a standalone story and then kind of come back to it or something that they can just binge in one sitting. So the short story part I knew from the start, there was never really a doubt about that. But in terms of structuring the story, it was a lot of trying to figure out what I wanted to say,
00:19:50
Speaker
kind of putting those into different categories and then building narratives around that and then kind of weaving it into a somewhat coherent narrative. What becomes the challenge for you in balancing the amount of text versus illustrations as you're trying to tell the stories?
00:20:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think it depends on what the story is and how much content I have to start. For some stories, I already have a bunch of comics in mind that are just standalone, like Instagram-like comics. So it's more of like, let's build a narrative around this so that I can use all these comics. Sometimes it's just a story that I'm writing and kind of building as I go.
00:20:33
Speaker
And I think that once you get into the groove of it, you start writing a story and then a part of your brain says, this part should be a comic, or this is where you should put a joke. And I think that it just comes with time of writing in that format and style.
00:20:49
Speaker
And I love so much of the sections of the book, too. You open with your pet fish and your frogs and go to the section on gum, which is this relationship that really stuck to you over the years. And so many of these really great storytelling buckets.
00:21:12
Speaker
So, how did you arrive at these and when you realize you're like, okay, these are the stories I really want to tell because they're going to take a while to manifest. So, how did you settle on so many of these wonderful topics? I think that a lot of the topics come from conversations. So, I looked at what kind of conversations or events happened in the last 10 years of my life.
00:21:37
Speaker
as well as like what happened to my friends, right? So I looked at what we talked about the most. So in essence, I kind of took a look at our mental like conversation history, and then thought about what we spent a lot of time discussing. So either things that I struggled with myself or my friends struggled with, and we talked about a lot in our
00:21:56
Speaker
one-on-one conversations. And then I kind of like took those conversations and figured out each bucket based on what I think other people would benefit from. So if I'm talking to someone and they're telling me about a problem, what is the likelihood that it would fit within these buckets? And I kind of took the top eight buckets of those things and built stories around them.
00:22:18
Speaker
And when you find yourself stuck in the middle of a comic, or in the case of the book, maybe halfway through, what do you do? What's your practice around breaking through the middle and the grind so you can crack on through to the other side? It's often a place where people get stuck, and I wonder how you unstick yourself.
00:22:48
Speaker
Uh, there's like a lot of grief and flailing around on my part. Um, but at the end, I usually try to, I'm, I'm someone who really leans on my notes, um, in the sense that sometimes when I get ideas, I'll just get 10 ideas and I'm furiously scribing them into my, uh, kind of like note app. But then when I do need to write, sometimes I'll just have nothing on my mind.
00:23:13
Speaker
Um, so it's really helpful to know that there is this repository of ideas waiting for me. And so I will always circle back to that and kind of like flip through and see what I can get. Um, sometimes you just won't get anything in which case I recommend just enjoying yourself and doing something fun because there's no point of like sitting at your desk and being stolen and have nothing come to you.
00:23:36
Speaker
Yeah, do you sometimes go on long walks or go work out or go watch TV or listen to a podcast or anything like that to maybe kind of stir the leaves? I wish I was healthy enough to kind of like default to run, but unfortunately I'm not. So more often than not, I will listen to a podcast or read a book or watch TV, if I'm being honest.
00:23:59
Speaker
I really love the section on quitting and quitting jobs and all that. This great, this energy that a lot of us have when we have a new job, it feels good. And then of course there comes the doldrums and then this isn't what I...
00:24:15
Speaker
hoped it would be and so forth. So how important was it for you to address quitting, especially when your neighbors to the south here in the States are so gung-ho on quitting being some sort of a weakness of any kind?
00:24:31
Speaker
I feel like quitting. I think quitting is a bit harsh. Sometimes you're just resigning. We should always say resigning, I think. I think resigning is something that we all have to do, regardless of how much you love your job. I recently resigned my position on my team. And I just posted a comic about this, actually. But it's funny how we all have this anxiety around it, regardless of if you're Canadian or in the States, I think.
00:25:00
Speaker
because it's like a sense of like giving up, but sometimes it's just like a transition of life, right? And I wanted to talk about that feeling of like, first of all, quitting and loving it because there are so many of us in jobs that we're not supposed to be in for whatever reason, but then also like the feeling of knowing when it's time to move on and that process not necessarily being one that is contentious, but just like a normal transition, right?
00:25:27
Speaker
Of course, of course. And later on in that same section too, there's this kind of point where you're having this conversation of like, what are you passionate about? And you're like, I don't know. And then there's this thing where you write, you can't take something you love and make it your work because the thing you love will become regulated and mandated instead of being a charming whim you can so freely pursue.
00:25:56
Speaker
And kind of going back to earlier part of our conversation, it made me think that if your comic became sort of this full-time thing where it truly was work, more so than it already is, do you worry that it being 100% work might somehow pollute it, or do you think the energy you have in it and the love you have for it would carry you through?
00:26:22
Speaker
I hope that the love I have for it would carry me through, but I do have my doubts, specifically because in a previous position, prior to the one that I'm in right now for my day job, I did work in an agency setting where it's creative, but also very guided in the sense that you can be creative as long as you're creative within these constraints set by your client. So I do have some experience
00:26:49
Speaker
in being this weird arena of where you're allowed to be creative, but you're not as creative in the way that you want to be. So I do have doubts in the sense that if I am doing this full time, like this as in my comics,
00:27:05
Speaker
in like a work setting it might not feel the same. Also because when I make my comics I'm doing it when I feel like it. I do it on a regular cadence but there's still a lot of autonomy and I feel like if that autonomy was gone the dynamics of it might feel different.
00:27:21
Speaker
Given that you've got your day job and of course your wonderful comic, there's probably a lot on your table and on your plate. How do you manage to deal with those feelings of overwhelm and maybe feeling unfocused at times? How do you deal with that and how do you get back on track?
00:27:44
Speaker
Um, a lot of sleepless nights and then a lot of lists. So I do have to admit I sacrificed a lot of sleep when I was writing this book because I was still working full time. Um, and I maybe didn't realize how much like effort and time it would take to write these comics to a place where I was happy enough to let it go in the world as like a book. Um, so I would say lists are a big deal for prioritization of what I need to do and to kind of like stay sane.
00:28:13
Speaker
Yeah, because if you're not writing it down, I just feel like I'm holding it in my brain. And once I write it down, I don't need to hold it. It's a little irresponsible, but it helps.
00:28:23
Speaker
And in the book too, one of the more touching scenes I felt was with, I think it's a star, yeah, space dust in that section where your mother and your sister, you stay up late and you're looking out at this meteor shower that kind of, it doesn't come for a long time if it came at all. And maybe take us to that moment. What was that like for you to be there with your mom and your sister and you're looking out into the sky
00:28:52
Speaker
Because it's a very touching little moment. Yeah, I was really young when that happened. So it's like I sometimes even wonder if it's a fake memory. But it was nice. It was one of the things that stuck out to me in my childhood. And I kind of just like never really forgot it. Yeah. Yeah, it seemed just from the way you write it and the way you draw it, it seems like you have a pretty special relationship with your mother.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah, I do. I'm pretty close with my mom. Has she always been someone who's been in your corner and very supportive and put gas in your tank so you can pursue the things that you love to do?
00:29:37
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. She will support any ridiculous idea I bring up, regardless of if it's something I want to do or just like the way we decorate the house for Christmas. But I remember when I first started writing comics, I showed her a couple panels that I made and I was really proud of them. And she looked at them and she started laughing and was like, this is really funny. And then I kind of took the comics back and was like, they're not supposed to be funny, but thank you for your support.
00:30:05
Speaker
And it was like this moment of like, oh, my mom's so supportive, but also I don't think she gets these comics. You're right, too, that praise becomes a lot harder to accept when you don't believe you deserve it. As I progressed in my career, I started to question how deserving I was of my so-called achievements. Everyone around me seemed to assume I knew things, but did I?
00:30:29
Speaker
And so, what's the sort of emotion behind that and your ability or inability to accept praise from others?
00:30:41
Speaker
Um, first of all, I really appreciate that you read it the way I intended it to be read. Um, but I think that, uh, it's just, it was, I think it's always hard to accept praise when you're already stressed out about something. Um, I think most of us have had that feeling where you're nervous about something and the fact that someone is talking about it even, uh, kind of makes your nerves go up a bit more.
00:31:05
Speaker
And I think that was just what I felt for a long time and still feel a lot of times now where someone is congratulating you and they're doing it with the best of intentions. But at the same time, you're a little bit stressed out that someone is bringing into the spotlight this thing that you're already worried about. And I think that was what I was trying to convey in those chapters.
00:31:28
Speaker
Do you have a way of even curating or collecting nice things that people say about you so you can actually read the evidence when you feel kind of lousy about yourself that people in fact really do appreciate what you do and value you? Is that something that you think about or even exercise? Yeah, so at the beginning of starting Instagram, I think maybe
00:31:57
Speaker
couple years into it. I had I made a comic that like some people didn't really like and then it was just like I think you go through waves of it right where sometimes you feel really good about your work and you feel like you're communicating the right stories and people are receiving it in all the right ways and then sometimes you feel like nobody really likes it and this is sort of a waste of time nobody really cares and you kind of get down in the dumps
00:32:22
Speaker
For me, I try to keep those messages that people send where they tell me something happened in their life and then they read this comic and they related to it and it made them feel so much better. I think it's important to hold onto those messages either literally through your inbox or somehow scrapbook collect it or even just mentally go back to it because those are the voices that keep you going.
00:32:49
Speaker
And like even now when I read reviews, my friend has started telling me that she's going to like spray bottle me with water every time I read a bad review because I got stressed out about it so much. I try to focus more on the positive reviews and it's still really hard for me, but I think it's important to remember that there are people who like the things you put effort into and you should do it for them.
00:33:15
Speaker
When you're dealing with the 3AM voice or the self-doubt voice, what does that voice sound like for you and how do you persevere in the face of it?
Overcoming Self-Doubt
00:33:27
Speaker
Oh man, that's hard. The 3AM voice comes in sort of like different demons depending on what I'm dealing with at the time. I think talking with friends or like other people or family in general is really helpful.
00:33:42
Speaker
And I think like, as I said before, like, having that repository of work that you're proud of, whether or not it's, whether it's art you created or just things you've done that you're proud of in general, it could even be like things you did to help other people is really important because I think that
00:34:00
Speaker
we need to have a good understanding of ourselves and like a good kind of evidence of what we like about ourselves so that when we do hear negative feedback, either internally or from other people, we still kind of can stand strong knowing that we work hard, we try to do our best, and we have done good previously. Would you say that your own harshest critic
00:34:30
Speaker
I would say so, but I have read one-star reviews, so maybe not. When you are being self-critical, and I'm someone who is impossibly self-critical, and I have almost 25 years of journals, which are basically just a record of me just lambasting myself, I wonder what that voice sounds like for you and maybe how you turn the volume down on it so you can still do the amazing work you do.
00:35:00
Speaker
Yeah I think the voice is always just maybe it's not good enough. I'm someone who spends a lot of time writing and rewriting even for like Instagram comics which look like I spent maybe like 10 minutes on it. That's usually a product of me writing and rewriting the same dialogue like maybe for three hours. I think I still don't have a bulletproof way to silence that voice but I try to focus on
00:35:29
Speaker
what friends tell me. I try to focus on what I know to be true. That might be a bit more positive than what I'm thinking of at the time. And then if anything, I just talk to friends about it. And I feel like it's always a good reality check to have someone else tell you what they know about you as opposed to you kind of spiraling into darkness.
00:35:51
Speaker
There's a moment too late in the book where you write – I think you're at an age where culture at large suggested that this is when your dream jobs should happen.
00:36:08
Speaker
And I guess our culture said like if you don't sort of strike that sort of dream job oil well, by the time you're like 29 or 30, then you're some sort of a loser or something that you've missed the mark, you missed the boat, and now you just might as well get into the big fade and die alone somewhere.
00:36:30
Speaker
So it really spoke to patience in this idea of putting too much social capital on precocity. So I wonder how you've grown to be more patient in your standing, finding that sort of perfect gig. I think that it's one of those things where you kind of accept it and move on. I think we all have those moments of grief.
00:36:56
Speaker
at certain milestones in your life where you're just like, oh no, I'm, I'm failing life. And I think that eventually you have to accept it or just spiral endlessly. And I think I just chose to accept it and be like, okay, well, I guess I'm working on these things for the next couple of years and it'll come when it comes. And if it doesn't, that's okay too.
00:37:19
Speaker
Yeah, it really gets to this idea of we really just have to run our own races. And it's very hard not to look over your shoulder and compare yourself to other people, people you admire, even people you don't admire, and you're wondering like,
00:37:39
Speaker
how the you know what are they doing what am i doing wrong if they're doing it looks like they're doing everything right so yeah how have you been able to you know coach yourself to put on the blinders and just you know focus on being the best miche
00:37:52
Speaker
I think that's definitely something I still struggle with, and I don't know when that struggle will end, but I'm hoping sometime in the next decade.
Focusing on Self-Improvement over Comparison
00:38:02
Speaker
I think that it's just, especially for Instagram, and I guess in the context of comics or sharing your work on the internet, it's really, really hard not to look at analytics and be depressed.
00:38:15
Speaker
It's really hard to not take likes or lack of likes personally, right? And I think for me, it's always this process of reminding myself, hey, my goal is to make a better comic every time I post it, or at least something that I'm proud of every time I hit post.
00:38:32
Speaker
And if it's not received well, then that's okay. And it shouldn't affect what I write and how I feel about my work. That said, I always and still kind of like cry to my friends when I'm like, oh, no, no one like this. This is really bad of me to share this. And it seems like something that I should be over at this point after posting for so many years, but I'm still not. So I would say that
00:38:57
Speaker
Try try to set your own goals and try to keep those goals away from what other people think But also be go easy on yourself when you do kind of fall into that pit of oh nose And know that it'll be okay
00:39:12
Speaker
And with your own work and running your own race and really trying to just compare yourself to yourself and where you want to go, what would you identify as something that you struggle with and that you're working on and that you're looking to improve? I would say having those blinders on. So being able to separate
00:39:36
Speaker
being able to make the stories and do the work that I want to do and not be biased or swayed based on the feedback I get. So it's really hard to share things out with people and not use their feedback as guidance. And I'm not saying post things and never listen to feedback and never listen to criticism that could make you better, but I just think that we should be sharing stories we want to share and not
00:40:05
Speaker
stories that are tailored to likes. So it's hard to build content that isn't geared to like meme content. It's hard to share the stories that you want to share, but being able to keep in mind what you want to say and not be biased from what other people are saying is very important and still something I'm working on.
00:40:29
Speaker
With respect to some of the stories you tell, what are some of the stories that, you know, scared you the most to hit publish on?
00:40:38
Speaker
So many I think that with Instagram There's a lot less anxiety because at the back of my mind I know I can always delete the post even though that's not like a best practice of mine But I think with the book specifically it was really hard to let some of those stories out into the world just because there are some things that I've never shared with people or certain people in my life and knowing that I
00:41:11
Speaker
my more vulnerable chapters were hard to share, like things like space dust, gum, certain parts of, I don't know, it just feels very personal. And I've been telling my friends this, and it's like a weird feeling, but when I share my book with strangers, I'm okay with it. It's like, you can read everything, we can talk about it at length, but sharing your work with people who are already in your life, there's a new type of anxiety that's come up from doing that. And I'm still kind of making my way around it.
00:41:31
Speaker
They're likely going to read the book at some point and see those stories.
00:41:40
Speaker
Yeah. Is there a part of you, it's not like you're ever, you know, critical of family or anything, which some, you know, people who write memoir and personal stories run into, but, um, you know, were there any moments of, maybe in the early drafting of this, of, of your book where you're like, Oh shoot, like I hope I don't offend, you know, mom or my sister or my father. Um, you know, were there those moments where you were a little gun shy?
00:42:08
Speaker
100%. My sister definitely messaged me one night at like 2am and said, why am I such a jerk in your comics? I was like, wow, how did you read this? Were you on Instagram again? Because she wasn't on Instagram that much back then. But now she's on top of it. And she's always like, I saw that comic you post. I'm like, okay.
00:42:28
Speaker
I think there are definitely moments where I would edit myself out of some truths just because feelings of other people were involved. But I try to stay transparent and honest and I feel like the people who are in my life know that I'm joking if I'm being a little bit harsh. And I feel like it's just a balancing act that you have to strike.
00:42:54
Speaker
With respect to some of the stories you've shared, whether on Instagram or in the book, are there some that really surprised you when you hit send? You're like, oh my god, I didn't realize that this one of all comics was the one that really connected with my audience.
00:43:11
Speaker
I think with Instagram it was very obvious, it's always very obvious because I'll get all those comments right away. And I think even with one of my more recent comics about resigning and kind of like resigning anxiety, that was very surprising to me because I didn't think that I would get so many comments in terms of people feeling the exact same way because I just thought I was weird and really stressed out about resigning on like a normal team for no reason.
00:43:38
Speaker
I think it's always interesting to have that feeling because people always write messages and they're like, you always write things I relate to. But at the same time, they don't realize I have that exact same feeling whenever they send me those messages because now I know I'm not alone.
00:43:52
Speaker
When you're constructing and developing your comics, what has been the challenge and the struggle to be super, super economical with your language given that you don't have a whole lot of space to make your point and to make a joke and to tell the story?
00:44:14
Speaker
Um, a lot of rewriting and a lot of kind of like cutting out your babies from the book. Uh, my editor helped a lot, um, in terms of saying like, do you really need these jokes? And then there's a lot of back and forth where I'm like, I do need that joke actually, because it's very important to me. But then eventually learning how to let go of the like extra fluff that you don't necessarily need so that you get to the good stuff.
00:44:39
Speaker
Has that gotten easier for you over the years, or is it still something you're like, ah, damn it, this is still really hard?
00:44:48
Speaker
Um, I think it's gotten easier for a dialogue, but it's hard Uh for comics in general I think it's easier for instagram because there's only so much space and you don't necessarily need to tell like a whole story But for the book itself, it was really hard to get rid of a lot of stories that or like comics that don't necessarily feed into the narrative, but I just Wanted because I selfishly wanted that comic to exist in the book. Um but I think
00:45:17
Speaker
If it's easier for me because I know that what doesn't make the cut for the book, I can sometimes repurpose in an Instagram comic or repurpose maybe in a future book if I do write a future book. So it wasn't that bad to put things in the graveyard.
00:45:34
Speaker
Was there a part of you that can sometimes use Instagram as a way to kind of, you know, crowdsource, if you will, or, you know, sort of test the market of a kind of story? You're like, whoa, this one got like hundreds and hundreds of likes. I really should maybe make this one a long form story.
00:45:53
Speaker
Um, I did start off by doing that when I was initially brainstorming for the book, but as I started writing for the book, I realized that I wanted the book to be stories that I never kind of talked about or shared on Instagram. Um, and I don't, I don't know why that was just like a feeling I had that I wanted the book to be separate. I wanted the experience to be new. I didn't want people to read the book and have that feeling you get when you watch a really great trailer and it kind of like covers the entire movie. So.
00:46:21
Speaker
In that sense, I didn't really crowdsource from Instagram as much. I just kind of picked my favorite stories and kind of hoped for this. And when you finished the book, what was that moment like and that feeling like?
00:46:38
Speaker
It was a lot of anxiety because I didn't think it was good enough. I think the hardest thing about writing the book was that I never thought it was finished. So no matter what chapter I was writing, no matter how many times I had written and rewritten that like segment, it never felt done to me. And that's still something I struggle with as I look at the book on my desk. Just that feeling of like, did I put in everything I could to make it great?
Anxiety of Finishing a Book
00:47:07
Speaker
Is it good enough? So I still haven't felt that sense of like, it's done, it's out. I still have that bit of anxiety of maybe I could just like, white out everyone's books in chapter eight, or whatever.
00:47:23
Speaker
Did you allow yourself, you know, moments of celebration over the course of the genesis of the book, you know, like maybe when you turned in your first draft and then your final draft, did you're like, all right, you know, it's time to, you know, celebrate this moment because it's pretty rare and very special. I celebrated when I got cut off from doing further edits from my editor. And then I quickly reverted back to anxiety.
Living in a State of Anxiety
00:47:50
Speaker
So that's where I'm still at.
00:47:52
Speaker
OK, still in the anxiety. Still anxiety, yeah. All right. I live here. Passport says, you know, citizen of anxiety land. So as we sort of bring this airliner down, Michi, something I always love asking people is kind of like this, you know, five very influential books that I call like the Bookshelf for the Apocalypse. And if you had a chance to think about it, you know, what are some of these these titles you can't live without, titles you reread and that you would carry with you to the ends of the earth?
00:48:22
Speaker
I think that the list changes depending on my mood. But I think like as of now my list would probably be like books that make me smile as well as like books that I can feel like I can escape to. So my list would probably be
00:48:41
Speaker
hyperbole and a half by Ali Brosh, the indispensable Calvin and Hobbes, because I feel like I need a significant amount of comics to kind of fuel my life right now. His essay at the beginning of that collection is so good. It's like such a powerhouse of an essay on creativity and everything. It's so, so good.
00:49:05
Speaker
I think it's really hard to pick a Calvin and Hobbes book, so I would bring the whole set if I was being honest. I would probably also bring When You Are Engulfed in Flames by David Sedaris. But again, I feel like I could pick any book of his and bring it onto this list. And then I need a Harry Potter book because Harry Potter. So Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. And then probably wrap it up with the picture of Dorian Gray.
00:49:35
Speaker
Nice. I'm so happy that Harry Potter 6 is your favorite one. That's my favorite one too.
00:49:43
Speaker
Yeah, because you can't pick the last one because you'll just be sad when it's done. And then you want him to be fairly competent, so you have to pick like five, six, seven, right? So that's why I landed on Half-Blood Prince. Definitely. Well, that's really, really cool. Well, Michi, this was wonderful, wonderful to get to
Promoting Michi Ning's Work
00:50:02
Speaker
talk to you. Like I said, I loved your book, The Pieces, and I can't wait to reread it because it's just endlessly rereadable and fun.
00:50:09
Speaker
I just want to thank you for coming on the podcast and you know best of luck with the book happy publication day and I Hope to do this again another time down the road Thank you so much for having me
00:50:30
Speaker
I love it. I love her comic. It's incredible. At the very least, if you don't buy the book right away, which you should, come on, check out her Instagram at barely functional adult. It's hilarious. It's cool, fun, cute, whatever. I mean, it's, it's hilarious.
00:50:47
Speaker
I can't talk it up enough. It brings me joy. Anyway, thanks to Michi for being on the show. And of course, thanks to UCNF for listening. Know that this show in part is brought to you by my kickass editing and coaching services. You know that if you need to get in shape, you spring for a personal trainer. If you can do it, it behooves you to get a personal trainer. Hold you accountable. That's how I see myself when it comes to your project.
00:51:13
Speaker
So if you're ready to level up and know that when you get involved with me on this and the writer for the audio mag, they know that I get it. I get in there. It's like pottery. I'm like in there helping to shape this thing. And I'm not just, I'm not just talking to you in your ear. We're, we're in the thick of it. So if this hasn't enticed you, I'd be honored to help you get where you want to go.
Thanksgiving Hike on the Oregon Coast
00:51:43
Speaker
Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving yesterday. Me, the Mrs. and Hank, at hooray for Hank on Instagram. I don't manage that account, the Mrs. does. We drove to the Oregon coast and found a secluded hike and got into the woods, man. The mist dripping off, the old growth trees. It was like rain, you looked right up into the misty tree tops.
00:52:08
Speaker
and just seeing how drips are coming down. It was cool to the skin and the ground was soft underfoot. We heard the surf off to the west, and as we climbed the trail up the eastern slope, it was silence. Pure silence. So quiet that all I could hear was the incessant ringing in my ears. Worked up a good lather, haven't hiked in a while, so it was relieving to be out there, man. It was just nice.
00:52:36
Speaker
regenerative. We then parked near Seal Rock along Route 101 and had some vegan turkey sandwiches on pretzel rolls, salt and pepper potato chips, a bit of seltzer water, and I gotta say man, it was all kinds of good. Came home and locked into this trip with a glass of Tempranillo and a bad case of B.O. Anyway,
Encouraging Podcast Reviews
00:53:00
Speaker
That's what's going on here. If you have a moment, consider leaving a kind review over on Apple Podcasts. They help with the packaging of the show of course.
00:53:08
Speaker
If you don't feel like leaving one on Apple Podcasts, you could always email me one and I'll read it on the air and give you the recognition you deserve and maybe use it as promotional materials and other things as I court sponsors and the like. You know, we're knocking on the door of a hundred and if you want to see what it means to be a CNF and member, head over to patreon.com slash CNFpod and see if there's a tier that speaks to you and where you want to go.
00:53:35
Speaker
I tried to really think of what would be of the greatest value to you. I think I'm kind of there. I think you'll dig it. You know what? And that's going to do it. Stay cool. Stay cool forever, man.
00:54:11
Speaker
you