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Voice of the Mountains: My Axe May Be Your Paintbrush with Jimmy Chin (Replay)
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(Originally published November 2024, now with new intro from Steve House) Most of us will never reach the pinnacle of our most passionate pursuit, no matter how driven we are. Through dedication, creativity and ingenuity, our guest today has reached the pinnacle of three of his passions. Beginning with a unique journey to discover climbing and skiing, then the discovery of an interest in photography, which finally led to becoming a premiere feature and documentary filmmaker, Jimmy Chin has forged his path with resilience, empathy, and a desire to tell important stories. Jimmy’s accolades and accomplishments speak volumes about a climber and artist who has pushed boundaries and silenced doubters. But it has always been the manner with which Jimmy has achieved that is most impressive. Steve and Jimmy discuss the evolution of his career and the catalyst for picking up a camera in the pursuit of climbing. They dive into the moral qualms Jimmy had shooting Free Solo and how and why he decided to create the award-winning documentary.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Voice of the Mountains'
00:00:00
Speaker
From Uphill Athlete, I am founder and CEO Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mountains, where we explore the philosophy and humanity of mountain sports. This is where we ask ourselves who we are, what we learn, and who we want to become as a result of these adventures.
00:00:16
Speaker
This is Voice of the Mountains.
Jimmy Chin's Journey to Filmmaking
00:00:20
Speaker
Most of us will never reach the pinnacle of our most passionate pursuit, no matter how driven we are. Our guests today, through dedication, creativity, ingenuity,
00:00:29
Speaker
has reached the pinnacle of three of his passions. Beginning with a unique journey to discover climbing and skiing, and then the discovery of an interest in photography through that,
00:00:40
Speaker
And finally, becoming a premiere feature and documentary filmmaker, Jimmy Chin has forged his path with resilience, empathy, and a desire to tell important stories.
00:00:51
Speaker
As a climber, Jimmy has led expeditions to the Karakoram in Pakistan and has done numerous first ascents around the world. As a skier, Jimmy, along with others, became the first and and I think only person to ski down the South Pillar route on the Lhotse face of Everest.
00:01:09
Speaker
Jimmy's award-winning photography has appeared in National Geographic, Vanity Fair, and outside, among many other publications. His first book of photography, There and Back, was a 2021 New York Times bestseller.
00:01:22
Speaker
Alongside his wife and co-director, Elizabeth Chai Vasarelli, Jimmy won an Academy Award for their documentaries, Free Solo, which, as most of us here know, chronicled Alex Honnold's harrowing pursuit to become the first person to free solo El Cap.
00:01:37
Speaker
The critically acclaimed film had the highest grossing opening weekend for a documentary film in history. Jimmy's accolades and accomplishments speak volumes about a climber and artist who has pushed boundaries and silenced doubters.
00:01:52
Speaker
But it has always been the manner with which Jimmy has achieved this that has impressed me most. He's charismatic, but humble, ambitious, but knows that a path without shortcuts is the most rewarding one.
00:02:05
Speaker
He has become an icon, but never forgets all all of the people who aided and influenced his journey. I can say without any hyperbole that he is one of the Adventure Sports' true originals, and I am honored that he has taken the time to join the Mountains.
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Speaker
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00:03:03
Speaker
Welcome to me.
First Meeting and Early Climbing Experiences
00:03:05
Speaker
Oh man, look a blu but yes, thank you for that very kind introduction. Yeah.
00:03:14
Speaker
It's heartfelt. Do you remember the first time we met probably around 2000, 2001 so? i was trying to remember when it was. forgot until this very moment.
00:03:28
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Um, we were, Oh God, i used to know the name of the hotel. It's a little ah side hotel Scardew.
00:03:40
Speaker
and you are um I can't remember it now either. What is that place? scott we I stayed there every time. It was like ah the Indus Hotel. The Indus Hotel.
00:03:51
Speaker
That's exactly it. It was the Indus Hotel. And um I was there with Brady Robinson, my dear friend. And I'm a partner who's gone on to do some incredible work, um, both in conservation and, you know, um, the executive director at the access fund among other things. But yeah, that was, uh, that was just, I forgot that's where we met.
00:04:21
Speaker
Pretty incredible. And, and pretty fitting, right? Like that's where you want to meet climbers is someplace like that. And you guys were heading. Did you guys go into the Characusa that year? would Do you remember what year it was? We were heading into the Characusa.
Dedication in Early Climbing Days
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah. and I believe you guys were going for G4? We went to G4 1999. It was 1999. Was it 1999? Yeah. Okay. it was ninety ninety nine but was it ninety ninety nine yeah yeah You were with, um, yeah, Steve Swenson, Andy DeClerc and Charlie Mace.
00:04:57
Speaker
And Swenson and Charlie Mace. And that was the first time I met all of those guys. And I've since then, um become quite good friends with all of them and less so Andy, but it's definitely Charlie and Swenson for sure.
00:05:17
Speaker
And I remember thinking, Oh, there's the big boy team. We're like the little Groms and we're going to go out and try to climb some little pinnacle. And these guys are going to climb something really big. and ber Well, you probably climbed something. We didn't get too far, but one of the things I remember for that trip, we were dedicated. We spent 89 days at base camp.
00:05:41
Speaker
Oh, the whole season up there. We were so emaciated and destroyed at the end of that. That's still my personal record for the longest time without a bath. incredible That is I don't need to ever beat that record, by the way.
00:05:58
Speaker
No, there's no need to beat that. that was the the Indus Hotel. That was like a ah real touch touchstone place for me for so many years. as I went to Pakistan just like every summer, right?
00:06:13
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There was another time we met, I think it was a couple of years later, I think it was at the Patagonia Service Center warehouse up in Truckee.
Transition from Climbing to Photography
00:06:23
Speaker
Remember that? I then and i i was reflecting on that the other day because after I had the conversation with Conrad a few weeks ago, and you know in preparation for this, I went back and rewatched to Meru and Free Solo and listened to some of your podcasts with other hosts and stuff. and
00:06:46
Speaker
particularly with Meru, it really reminded me that, man, like, you know, I distinctly remember this feeling like that you, you, you sort of opened the door to some collaboration. And if i have one regret, it's that I never took you up on that. And I, I take responsibility for that because i really felt at the time that it wasn't possible. Like that alpinism was sort of like, you know, the like quantum physics, like if you observed it, it would change it.
00:07:15
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And particularly with Meru, like, you know, you showed that that doesn't have to, of course can be like that, but you showed ah a path to to doing that. And now that I'm, you know, my early fifties, I look back at all those stories that we sort of, you know, lived and missed and, you know, didn't get to tell that are hard to tell without a powerful storyteller, like what, who you are. So, I just wanted to kind of put a pin in that because I think that it it comes back to a lot of the the topics I want to talk about today. and
00:07:50
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Our theme for today is ah a little quote and it ah that I wrote. We are not to be blamed for thinking our undertakings are beautiful and grand, for they are.
00:08:03
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My ice axe may be your paintbrush. And you started out as first a skier and then a climber and sort of learning the art of the ice axe, if you will. And then along the way, you picked up the paintbrush of a camera. And this is a path that other climbers have taken, picking up various paintbrushes, cameras, pens, lecterns, different things.
Building a Photography Career
00:08:25
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You know, how?
00:08:26
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Do you have a story of how that came to be that sort of dawned on you that the mountains were a canvas for you beyond climbing and skiing?
00:08:39
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You know, it started out as something very practical and there's this story that I've told before and you've probably heard, um, Brady Robinson, was my climbing partner and mentor in a lot of ways.
00:08:54
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had picked up a camera and wanted to be a photographer. um And he showed me how to use his camera. And i took one photo with it.
00:09:06
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And went at the end of the month when he had taken all his photos, he he submitted it to a bunch of places to see if he could sell some of his photos. And he only sold one photo and it happened to be my photo.
00:09:21
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He was so pissed. can And I, it was a dirt bag climber, you know, and he sold the photo for $500, which was a ton of money for me.
00:09:38
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So Brady sold the photo for $500 and, you know, I'm a total dirt bag climber. Um, I was literally like dumpster diving. I remember with like Brady and some of my other, some of the other monkeys in the, in the Valley.
00:09:54
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And i um
00:09:58
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remember thinking as like a 20 year old would think, man, I only have to take one photo a month and I can live like this forever.
00:10:09
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yeah And there was no idea of being a visual storyteller or any of these things. I was just naive. And I thought, well, how hard could it be to become a professional photographer like this is great. You can make money just taking photos of like your friends.
00:10:30
Speaker
Um, and, uh, it certainly evolved from there, but that was the beginning. It was very practical dirt bag, you know, you know, rationale. was like, Oh, what a photographer or was it the subject and the rich subject matter that was all around you every day?
00:10:51
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It was the idea um, um I mean, this this goes to show, I mean, in a lot of ways, it still holds true to a certain degree. Like, what do i need to do to be able to keep climbing?
00:11:07
Speaker
you up And it's still true. That part is still true. I still, you know, it's like all of this is a means to being able to spend the time with the people who I respect and admire that inspire me.
00:11:26
Speaker
And to be able to go into the mountains or to go climbing and, and have those experiences that really, feel enrich my life, um, that give my life meaning and purpose. Like I still wake up in the morning and if I get to go climbing that day, still wake up in the morning and I'm still as excited was when was 19 or 20, know, and, um,
00:11:54
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you know and um And that feeling has inspired all the rest of it.
00:12:05
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You know, what I have gotten out of climbing and the relationships that I've gotten out of climbing and the experiences and the feelings um and understanding what's real and not real and understanding,
00:12:20
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you know, life in a way that nothing else has ever shown me or taught me. um So in a way that 20 year old rationale for how am I going to keep climbing?
00:12:40
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I'm happy that it's still true for me and and it has provided all of the the rest of the inspiration. So, you know, I was hanging out at that time. It was like Dean Potter and Timmy O'Neill and Conrad
Learning Visual Storytelling
00:12:57
Speaker
and Kevin Saw and I think the Hupin brothers were around and and
00:13:06
Speaker
Sennett and Ogden and, you know, I can list Jose Pariah, Ammon McNulty. You know, I think that Leo Holding had shown up. Like, it was just such a cast of characters that were constantly blowing my mind, you know, in what they were doing. I also realized I was like, you know what?
00:13:32
Speaker
I don't think I'm ever gonna, like those guys are on another level. And if I wanna keep hanging, I gotta figure out something useful to do. um So again, it was very pragmatic and photography really did come to me quite easily.
00:13:52
Speaker
And i attribute it to um i i think that we always had these like amazing Chinese paintings in my house, landscape paintings, and um composition always made sense to me.
00:14:09
Speaker
Like i I brought the viewfinder up my eye, I'd look through the camera and I would see the frame and that that came to me. and i Um, I had a sense that this, this was something that, uh, I could do and it did start, it fed a creative aspect.
00:14:30
Speaker
Um,
00:14:34
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sorry, did I lose you again?
00:14:37
Speaker
Where did you lose me? You had a sense this was something you could do. Yeah, that I could do. And, uh, So I started shooting and, you know, this is about the time when a lot of these guys are gaining some notoriety and there were sponsors that needed photos and magazines that needed photos of these guys and they were my friends. And so ah i could move in the mountains and I could, I could move around on El Cap.
00:15:10
Speaker
I had my systems dialed. I was, you know, pretty efficient. And they knew I wasn't a liability, so they could trust me to go up there and shoot with them.
00:15:23
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And that kind of became my role. And I was the guy that they would call and someone needed photos. i had bought a camera with that $500 and I started shooting a lot. and ah But something did happen, which was that a lot of my friends were really inspiring to me. and I did feel compelled to tell their stories because I was like, this is incredible. And no one even knows that they're doing this up there. Do they, do people even have an idea of how hard it is to do what they're doing and how good they are?
00:16:05
Speaker
And i I did feel really compelled to tell their stories and to show, share what they were doing. And, and that, And it's something that's always stuck with me in terms of like what I look for when I'm shooting something because it comes from a very authentic place.
00:16:29
Speaker
And in a lot of ways, like, you know, as a climber, as you know, you can't not do it. And I got to that place with photography where I, I couldn't not do it because I was seeing images everywhere all the time.
00:16:46
Speaker
And i was going on these adventures and the light would turn a certain way. And, um we would be in these just outrageous wild places. And, uh, you know, that's when the mountains became a canvas for me and the people that I was with, um,
00:17:08
Speaker
really inspired me to shoot. And that's that's the kind of the beginning of the evolution. um and i and I really fell in love with photography. I fell in love with coming back with these little treasures, you know.
Approach to Climbing and Photography
00:17:24
Speaker
um And then I started to set my sights on you know, like a climber does. You're like, okay, I want to climb El Cap or I want to climb that mountain. and I was like, okay, well, I want to be a National Geographic photographer. and what's What's it going to take to to be able to do that? And, you know, eventually ending up shooting for the geographic and having, just like in the climbing world where you have mentors, I had mentors as photographers as mentors, and I started to really understand, you know, visual storytelling and how do you
00:18:03
Speaker
create a tapestry for people to understand a real narrative within within these images. And just like anything, you know you you you become really focused on the craft.
00:18:16
Speaker
um But all of those, you know becoming a photographer and eventually becoming a filmmaker, the basis of how I approached them all came from climbing.
00:18:30
Speaker
you know I always think about climbing as this exercise in failure, right? Where you you pick things that you don't know that you're able to do or that you don't even think you can do, but you throw yourself at it and you take all the necessary steps and you fail and you come back and try to be better, stronger, stronger,
00:18:57
Speaker
get your systems more dialed, get more information and you try and try again until you succeed. And that, that mentality really is kind of the basis of how I approached photography.
00:19:10
Speaker
And it really allowed me to dream
00:19:17
Speaker
big because a lot of those early expeditions seemed so outrageous and unlikely, um and I pulled off a couple of climbs, and I was like, okay, this is this is how you do it.
00:19:34
Speaker
I don't know any other way to do it. so like I never studied photography, and I certainly never studied filmmaking, but I went into it being like, okay, you got to set some goals, you got to go for it, and you will certainly fail many, many times along the way. I mean,
00:19:54
Speaker
I have a lot of bad photographs that I've taken, you know, um, and it's really, your quote from
00:20:06
Speaker
there's a quote of parallel, you know, I, I've heard like, From other sports, you know, i've looked at other sports, like, you know Roger Federer said, like, well, you know, tennis is an exercise in failure because you you lose you lose approximately 50% of all the serves. was like, yeah, that sounds pretty good to me. Like, losing only 50%? Like, if I could have only lost 50% of the time that I went climbing, that would have been would have been the most successful climber in history by a long shot. Yeah.
00:20:34
Speaker
I think people, people, climbers have grit. You know, this is one of the, one of the, one of the themes that I've, I've noticed with mountain athletes. And and and this is exactly the reason I want to have these kinds of conversations is because I think there's so much richness in the mountain sports. And I'm going to, I'm going to throw skiing and mountain climbing and rock climbing and ice climbing and, and trail running all into that, that,
00:21:01
Speaker
You know, there's it just takes a tremendous amount of grit. And part of it is because there is no like material reward, really. You know, it's very rarely like do people make it as a professional climber.
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00:21:19
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00:22:27
Speaker
Use the code COACH. C-O-A-C-H. Now. Back to that show.
Ongoing Passion for Climbing
00:22:34
Speaker
But you said something to me one time, you were like, I just want to become the best climber I can be. i can b and And I was like, oh, wait, that's my mission statement. Like, how did you steal my, you know? And then, like you said, it was practical. Like, oh, I need to fund another month in the valley. So I need to sell one picture, right? Like, that's like the immediate step in the goal of just trying to become a better climber. Like, I need $500 to live, yeah that kind of thing.
00:23:00
Speaker
No, absolutely. And I'm still trying to be the best climber I can be every day. i'm shredded today because I was climbing yesterday. Where'd you go?
00:23:15
Speaker
I just went to this little crag in Idaho, in Teton Canyon. Teton Canyon? Yeah. Great little granite crag. And I haven't been really doing a ton of granite climbing, I haven't been doing a ton of climbing. Actually, I climbed the Hulk twice in the last few weeks, which was great as well. But yeah, it's still like, you know, my best days in the last couple of months.
00:23:47
Speaker
Getting to go up on the Hulk and God, that place is amazing. But yeah, I would say that climbing is still very much a part of my life and In fact, as I get older, i recognize how important it is and and why it's still so important to me.
00:24:11
Speaker
um
00:24:14
Speaker
you know Like I said, it taught me so much. And it's taught me also, i think, something really important, which is something that you touched on earlier. was this idea of, you know, and you when you talk about climbing as being like quantum physics, if you look at it, something changes. And and that idea of pure purity is something that I came up with.
00:24:42
Speaker
um Not that I came up with, but it was something that i was pounded into me, you know? and I'm not just saying this because you're heard you have me on a podcast, but authenticity was so important to me.
00:25:08
Speaker
And like working with like Dean, he he was just like really intense on authenticity as well. But like Conrad, that community is about authenticity, right?
00:25:23
Speaker
Because is you're you're taught what's real and what's not real. You're taught what's like actually badass and what's you know quite a bit softer. But like for for a non-climber, it's hard to discern between like what's real and what's not real in the climbing world the style in which things and you know that weighs on me constantly in everything that i do because of people like you you know and that idea of
00:26:05
Speaker
style and like yvonne chouinard right the the classic You know, my biggest hero to date. Yeah. And my biggest hero, too, which is why I literally went and made a movie about it because I was like, this is like the this is this the that community, that group of people. That is the real deal.
00:26:26
Speaker
And, you know, you've got all these people in the world, big egos, finance, CEOs, whatever. And you're like, yeah, well, you want to know what's real? Check this guy out.
00:26:36
Speaker
This is real. Doug Tompkins? totally That's real. you know Christine Tompkins? Christine Tompkins. On that list too. Real?
00:26:48
Speaker
kind of Check up Rick Ridgeway and Chris Tompkins and Yvonne Chouinard. And what I wanted to say is that like the amount of focus I put on authenticity in the storytelling is...
00:27:05
Speaker
It is the North Star for me when I'm making a film. And when I made Meru and when I made Free Solo, I would think, what would Steve House think?
00:27:18
Speaker
What would Yvonne Chouinard think? you You guys were like the filter in which I was like, you know, what about that scene? No, that's too much, dude. That, that, that's, they're going to look at that and call fucking BS. You know, it's, ah it was like you, Yvonne and Krakauer.
00:27:39
Speaker
I'm like, who's going to call me on that shot? And I would literally be like, sit there and I'd think, no, that's gotta go. It's too much. Like, and, and I, give me an example.
00:27:53
Speaker
Like, Just like in the climbing picture for the listeners. Well, because, you know, if you're making a film, um
00:28:05
Speaker
it's the same as in climbing, as in, as in architecture and many other genres of professions or work where simple is actually the harvest.
00:28:20
Speaker
And People who editors or studio heads, they always want to over dramatize. No, no, no. You got to keep that in there. It's dramatic, but it's, and writing the same thing, right?
00:28:37
Speaker
It's like, oh, you you can write and embellish and use all kinds of, you know, flair to, to try to write something that's really simple. And if anybody who knows what's going on is going to be like, that's bunch of, that's just, I can't even read it or I can't even watch it. It doesn't pass the sniff test.
00:28:56
Speaker
It doesn't pass the test. authenticity test. And so, um you know, like, I can't think of anything specific right now, but it's it's like, okay, just tell it as it is and keep it simple and clear and and people will get it because it's going to be authentic. You
Making 'Free Solo': Challenges and Authenticity
00:29:18
Speaker
don't need to blow it out of the water and try to pound something into people um because you're, well, usually if afraid that
00:29:29
Speaker
You're not good enough of a filmmaker to get the point across and you have to trust in yourself and the story to be able to do that. And I just had a conversation with ah a very amazing architect named Tom Kundig and he was saying the same thing. He's like, in architecture, it's the same for me. My philosophy is like the cleanest, the simplest and same with Yvonne.
00:29:55
Speaker
you know, design philosophy, the simplest, the cleanest, but it's the hardest to achieve actually, you know, and, and, and, because you're distilling you're not embellishing you're pulling it down to the essence and that is how, um, we make films. And, and that was a sensibility that i love and appreciate and respect about my wife, Chai is she is brilliant.
00:30:24
Speaker
brutal in the edit room it's just you you don't need it and we will literally trim and trim and trim and if it works without it we didn't need it and we call it killing your babies right like it's the favorite shot that i spent so two weeks trying to get and she's like yeah it's a nice shot but We don't need it.
00:30:48
Speaker
And, and. does' it move the story forward. Nope. And it hits, it hits the editing room floor and I, you know, it's a little painful, but I get it. Cause it's all for the, you know, to serve this idea of like authenticity and simplicity.
00:31:07
Speaker
And, um, you know, again, whether it's design or writing or filmmaking, it's the hardest to achieve. I've heard this phrase. his killing the babies from Alison Osteus, who was an editor at Rock and Ice Magazine at the time, is probably 30 years ago.
00:31:25
Speaker
And I had some paragraphs in there and she's like, nope, you gotta kill the babies. And I was like, what, what are you talking about? I was like, gotta recoil. So I use that phrase too in my in my writing, not my you know not my filmmaking, but yeah, it's it's such a thing. it is so It is amazing how much emotional attachment you get to those those things that you feel so attached to.
00:31:49
Speaker
You know, one of the things I wanted to... One of the themes that has come up repeatedly in this series is this idea of the difference between the things you should not be doing and the things you cannot do. The cannot representing like the the impossible. The should nots are often much more powerful. There's sort of, it could be, i don't know if it's your parents speaking or sometimes it's the patriarchy speaking. Sometimes it could be all these things. And the cannot always has this romantic beckoning, like, well, they say it's impossible, but maybe I'm the one, right? Like I could if I just apply myself, but they should not imply as a social price.
00:32:30
Speaker
And you've, I think, faced some should nots in your own development as a climber and the stories I've heard about, you know, how, how you stuck to your, you know, climbing spirit, you know, despite it not being well understood by your, by your folks.
00:32:45
Speaker
But actually want to, and that's interesting, but where I want to, this is where I think like the free solo movie was so good because it, and I just need to say this to you because I never told you, like I couldn't watch it for the longest time because I was like morally not sure if it was okay.
00:33:04
Speaker
yeah Like even though I knew the outcome, I was just like, I don't know. you know and And then I heard you in an interview where you discussed that conversation you had with Krakauer about like whether or not you should do it because you had the same reservations about whether or not you should even be filming him. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I get it. They thought that through and that that stands up. And then I went and watched it. But I think one of the reasons, and then it's amazing, and one of the reasons I think it's so amazing is because it combines something that's impossible. It's like, nobody for sure, nobody can do that. And also it's like, and nobody should do it
00:33:38
Speaker
it's like that's just like why you know nobody understands why alex or friendly anyone would whatever want to do that and then make a film about the the nexus of all of that and so that's such a powerful story i want to hear your insights on our thought um we should definitely talk about it because this is a conversation i would love to have with you um i a an incredibly conflicted period and when when the film was financed. And the way it came about was that we had made Meru.
00:34:20
Speaker
it was, you know, a pretty successful theatrical release. And a bunch of studios are like, what are you going to make next? And i was talking to a producer.
00:34:31
Speaker
I had all these different ideas and we were about to hang up. And he said, any other ideas? And I just was like, well, have one other idea. And i didn't even want to say it out loud. And I just assumed it would blow over. And I said, i have this friend, Alex Honnold.
00:34:51
Speaker
He's an incredible free soloist. And right then and there, he was like, that's the movie. And I was like, oh, shit. I shouldn't even have said it. um problem The thing is, is that I had worked with so many incredible athletes by that time.
00:35:09
Speaker
And i had started spending some time with Alex and, you know, Kevin Thaw and Markson and Connor and took him on his first international expedition. And I got to see what he was capable of and also who he was as a human being.
00:35:28
Speaker
and I had just never seen or experienced anything like it. And I knew he was special and different in all of these different ways. It's like he's an intersection of like all these unique attributes that, you know, make it possible for him to free Solo El Cap.
00:35:49
Speaker
So I was conflicted from the beginning. i was like, oh, whatever. We'll, we'll pitch, pitch the stuff and hopefully no one will ever pick it up.
00:35:59
Speaker
I, I went to Nat Geo and I kind of got sandbagged. They were like, oh, look why don't you come in and meet with the president of Nat Geo? And, I was there for a photographer summit thing. So i was going anyways. And I was like, sure, I'll stop by and say hi. And I wrote up at the office and all of a sudden I got brought in the room with ah a woman named Courtney Monroe who'd run HBO for 10 years.
00:36:29
Speaker
And it was like the executive team were all sitting there. And I was like, whoa, what's this about? And they were like, what's the next film you're going to make? And I was like, well, we've been, you know, playing with this idea of making a film about Alex Connell, the free soloist.
00:36:47
Speaker
And
00:36:50
Speaker
classic. When you're not pitching, it's like it's a catnip for these executives because I wasn't pitching and they were like, we're going to finance that movie.
00:37:05
Speaker
And we didn't have a budget. We didn't, we didn't, nothing. They were just like, we're going to finance that. like Gotta be kidding me. And, well, had a so ah major studio telling me that they were going to finance this movie.
00:37:20
Speaker
And I literally went back to China and said, you know what?
00:37:25
Speaker
I can't make that movie. And, um, at the time, Alex, had already done all these incredible free solos. All of his friends were kind of thinking like, well, if you look at his progression of what he's doing, El Cap is basically the next thing.
00:37:46
Speaker
And it was one of those things that none of us talked about it because we were afraid to even put it into the ether. But we all, remember having this conversation in the black Canyon with Hayden Kennedy one day, like just talking about this exact thing. Cause he just come back from the valley climbing with Alex. And we were just talking about like, what he's going to do. Like, it was just like, we couldn't even talk about it. And it's funny because try, try like, well, let me meet with Alex and let me just see if there's any you know, I, I want, I need to like, at least meet him. And so Alex was in New York. I wasn't there.
00:38:24
Speaker
Alex ended up spending an evening and then staying over at our apartment in New York. And she had a conversation with him. And the next day I called her and I said, so how'd your time with Alex go? What do you think? And she's like, oh, you know what?
00:38:40
Speaker
He told me. He wants to solo El Cap, which is perfect because it's like this perfect goal. And we can kind of like film him as he tries to achieve this goal. I almost dropped the phone.
00:38:54
Speaker
I was like, absolutely. Like he had told Chai, who is a non-climber and knows nothing about climbing. And of course she was like, yeah, that sounds great. And I was like,
00:39:07
Speaker
first of all mortified and then pissed because I was like, of all the people, he's never said that to anybody. Like no one, if if he had said it to any of ah my friends or our friends, our mutual friends, they would have been like, dude, he said it. He said he wants a solo Alcatraz.
00:39:25
Speaker
he he he He hadn't mentioned it to anybody. And then he tells my wife. And I was like, no way. And that's when I i was like, I told you, we're not making that movie. And I wasn't even that conflicted. What's the story? Is Chai just that person that can get anybody, anything out of anybody? Does she just like charm it out of them or what?
00:39:45
Speaker
Well, no, just cause she's very direct. She asks exactly what's on her mind and people I think are just unprepared and they just blurt out the actual truth.
Filming 'Free Solo': Logistics and Authenticity
00:40:01
Speaker
It's terrible for me. but isn' just rap right and And she's, you know, and so could read your mind as well so she can read your mind And she's brilliant. And she's, yeah, she's absolutely brilliant, which is like,
00:40:18
Speaker
tough when she's brilliant all the time. But um so that's when I spent a few months kind of pondering and being like, i'm I don't think I can handle making that movie. And is this even okay to make this movie?
00:40:34
Speaker
Because what if, you know, making a film about Alex causes him to die? You know? um And I was like, I can't live with that.
00:40:44
Speaker
And that's when I had that conversation with John and I still remember walking down the street with him and I i didn't even want to ask him. And I finally worked up the courage to ask John and be like, well, cause I think he asked me, he's like, well, what are you thinking about next? And I finally like worked up the courage. and I was like, well, this is what we're thinking. this is, this is kind of out there and and and it's a green lit film.
00:41:10
Speaker
And then like any great mentor, He didn't tell me the answer. he just asked more questions and had me answer my own questions, which was, well, is he going to do it anyways? And I said, yeah well, yeah, he is. And he said, well, is there someone else you think that's better suited to to to make the movie? And I was thinking about it. And just because of my relationship with him and having shot with him a lot and understanding him and being an actual climber, I was like, well, probably
00:41:43
Speaker
not You know, i think and I think I'm pretty well suited to do it. And then he asked me, well, do you trust him? And I paused, but it didn't take long for me to have that answer. And I was like, yeah, I do.
00:42:01
Speaker
He's not only the most, well, he's the most calculated and thorough and detail oriented climber I'd ever met that was able to compartmentalize fear in a way that I'd never even thought was a man, like never even thought was possible.
00:42:30
Speaker
And I knew that he
00:42:35
Speaker
didn't take shortcuts and that he was going to be incredibly thorough about how he was going to approach this. Um, and I had a sense of how he did, done it because I seen him prep for other solos before.
00:42:50
Speaker
And, uh, so then I had to figure out how to do it. And I thought deeply about it and I realized the only way we could make the film is if our intention wasn't focused on making the film, that our intention would be to support Alex.
00:43:13
Speaker
as his friends and, um, and that the film was secondary and that, that in that way, i could feel good about pursuing the project because now we were able to basically support him.
00:43:32
Speaker
And I mean, we fixed lines. I mean, we hauled loads, like, It accelerated his, there's no doubt in my mind it accelerated the process by years.
00:43:45
Speaker
Because we were with him all the time and fixing lines and hauling lines and working with him on the route. And he would ask Mikey Schaefer, what do you think? Should I go this way or that way? And Mikey would be like, well, but watching you climb both those things, you look way more solid.
00:44:00
Speaker
He was getting like objective feedback and And it would, it became a project that was really focused on, on Alex and his group of friends.
00:44:18
Speaker
And the other part about that, that was like very meaningful was just that
00:44:25
Speaker
we all wanted him to succeed. you know, we were like, this is, if this is an ink incredible, incredible
00:44:34
Speaker
achievement and pursuit and the purity of free solo. I mean, just all these things that, you know, you had to admire and respect and, um and it became something for all of us.
00:44:49
Speaker
And so when we had our first meeting um with the production crew, i laid that out. I said, look, this is after the intention or setting is this.
00:45:00
Speaker
and also because if that's not our intention and he falls, we'll never be able to live with ourselves. I said it straight up. It's like we're there to support him. And the filming is secondary.
00:45:12
Speaker
And the other part that was really important to me was that I'm also an athlete. I get it. Like we have to be there to preserve his experience because if it's, if, if, if our filmmaking becomes something that changes his experience in the moment,
00:45:29
Speaker
for what he wants to do, then the whole, then then we fucking blew it. and so that was the intention. And we wanted to preserve his experience. And, you know, like Mikey Schaefer, of course, he he got it. He was like, okay, I can sign on for that.
00:45:46
Speaker
i i i can I can sign up and and throw myself at this thing if this is the way we're going to do it. um Some of the other guys, you know younger and just psyched, they were just like, okay. But Mikey was really important to me.
00:46:05
Speaker
And Mikey is someone that i respect deeply and is one of my best friends. um And so that's how we went for it. And it meant that we had to be super dialed and that we had to run the tightest show possible and that, you know, Alex should never have to wait for us. We always had to be there early.
00:46:30
Speaker
And if he was ready, we were, we'd already been ready for half an hour. You know, like that is the way that, so we ran the tightest ship possible.
00:46:40
Speaker
um And that was the standard and the expectation that we set. And that's what we did. And that's the thing that i'm proudest of about the whole film and the whole production was that we pulled it off in good style.
00:46:58
Speaker
You know, it goes back to your comments about authenticity and, you know, I mean, Mikey's such a, there's an authentic guy. I've also been on a couple of expeditions with Mikey and I've talked to him about all of this.
00:47:09
Speaker
And, you know, if you go back to, you know your professed heroes, my professed heroes, like the Shinar's. I mean, and I want to include Melinda in that too. Yvonne gets all the spotlight, but Melinda is just as much a part of everything that they've accomplished together.
00:47:26
Speaker
And, you know, they didn't set out to build a billion-dollar company, for example. Like, that was never their goal. Their goal, that was that was a result of them just being authentic to their values time and time and time and time again, even when it made no sense to anyone else.
00:47:47
Speaker
And then you extrapolate that over whatever it's been since they started Patagonia. I mean, it must be from when they started, 1970 or something like that. And so, yeah.
00:47:59
Speaker
History has come up. Yeah, yeah, probably. So yeah, it should be, of course. So 50 years, like, and and that's just like, again, like we were talking about each one of those is like a little, each one of those decisions is like a little step in the right direction. And what you were doing was you were living by, you know, your authenticity, your North star, as you put it, and then supporting Alex. And then that sort of enabled,
00:48:27
Speaker
you know, actually, and and made made something. And then you got, of course, the film was amazing, but that was, like, I can see how that was secondary, and that seems like so often the case. But did you, and this is, like, the story of the film is also, like, a story of you should not, and you, and it'd be impossible anyway. Like, just the logistics, like, I know what that's like, running those logistics. I mean, not on that scale. I just know enough to be able to appreciate it.
00:48:58
Speaker
I mean, and I can't imagine like that compared to some of the commercial shoots I've been involved with over the years where the budgets are just insane. And there's like craft service and all kinds of helicopters flying everywhere. and it's like, they're burning millions of dollars a day.
00:49:17
Speaker
and you guys were just like a bunch of climbers, just like fixing rope, like going, you know, light and fast. Like you knew the meter, how much rope you needed for each position. you had it all on lockdown and nobody else could do that.
00:49:31
Speaker
That was an impossible. Mikey was the general. I was like, okay, you know how many lines have. The classic thing though, was when we would go and like rig everything because Alex was like, i'm going to go climb there tomorrow.
00:49:44
Speaker
And then we'd like spend all night rigging and then they'd come I'll come back down and be like, actually I'm going over to the Ross drum and we just smile and be like, okay, no problem.
00:49:57
Speaker
Like, and he'd walk out the door, I'd pull up the radio and he'd be like, okay, we're going to the rostrum. And he would just be like mad scramble and everything, like ripping out lines and like moving all the gear because it was literally like we never wanted him to feel pressure in any way, one way or the other. It was just like, he needs to live his life.
00:50:22
Speaker
We're here to cover it. Yeah. yeah see So you're just authentic to those values all the time. yeah And I you think ultimately that's what people experienced is like the climbing and all that stuff was unbelievable. But I think what really pushed that film over the top is I think people um felt that it was, it was authentic.
00:50:46
Speaker
It was true. You know, it's true to the spirit of what actually happened. And you can't, well, you can't fake authenticity. You can't act authenticity, you know? And I think that, you know, humans that were storytellers, right? As don't have to tell you this and what i love about all of your stories that I've heard you tell is there's the basic premise of Moe's storytelling is black and white, good or evil, them, us kind of duality.
00:51:17
Speaker
And your
Reflections on Authentic Storytelling
00:51:18
Speaker
stories are not, framed in those terms. you're framed Your stories are framed in the terms of like authentic human experience. And sometimes it's messy. you know And sometimes it's beautiful. and But it's real. And and that's what i that's what I think that the mountain sports in general, as opposed to stick and ball sports, have to tell teach the world. So I'm just so grateful that you are out there telling these stories the way they really are.
00:51:49
Speaker
And we're not sort of being, you know, held back by this sort of, i guess, old school black and white thinking that, you know, we can say that still plagues us in much of society, but this is something that how mountain sports and the stories you're telling can move us forward, my opinion.
00:52:09
Speaker
Well, thank you. I hope so. That's still, still the North star for me. And, um, You know, I'm grateful i'm I'm in the position to be able to tell these stories. I think stories are one of the most powerful tools you have because you can change somebody's point of view.
00:52:26
Speaker
And that's that's really powerful. um And i I try to use that responsibly and as authentically as possible.
00:52:36
Speaker
So, that's just still still trying. still trying to perfect the craft, you know? Yeah. How do you want to be remembered to me?
00:52:51
Speaker
I want to be remembered as um, I mean, the films and the photographs are one thing, but like, guess we're maybe overusing the word, but like that I, I, that I stayed authentic and that I kept it real.
00:53:10
Speaker
Um, and I think about that all the time and
00:53:18
Speaker
You know, if my children remember me as being that, then I'm, I, I, I I'm happy. Um, and you, you know, you, especially like in the film world and Hollywood and stuff, and in a lot of different worlds, it's like, you know, we're gra, we gravitate to those types of people.
00:53:42
Speaker
And I think, I hope to, to be remembered in that way.
00:53:50
Speaker
I'm sure you will be. I mean, it's like, it's, you're going to remembered. We're remembered for our actions, not our words, right? We're remembered by how we make people feel, not what exactly we said. It's like, that's, that's what people carry on. And authenticity is of a feeling as much as, yeah as much as it is. a yeah
Closing Remarks and Future Projects
00:54:11
Speaker
You can't describe the attributes, you know, it's like, it it's that thing that's kind of hard to describe, but yeah.
00:54:23
Speaker
Well, thanks so much for your time today. i really appreciate that, our that you that you came on here to to talk to us. Voice of the Mountains means a lot. I hope we get a chance to carry on these conversations in person sometime. And where can our audience connect with you?
00:54:42
Speaker
What's the best way to to follow your work, keep track of the new films you have coming out? It's funny because like yeah I have this Instagram account, but I don't do social media because I literally can't handle it. So I'll be transparent someone else does that post for me. But that is kind of where I do some updates on on films that are coming out or other things.
00:55:10
Speaker
That's probably the the best place. But, you know, lot of these films have a communications and PR teams that are out there. So... usually in the press and and the trade magazines for films. But that's probably the best best way to find out what's coming out. And we we do have several films coming out this next year. And I'm excited to share some of them. Anything you can tell us about?
00:55:37
Speaker
the This will come out November 1st, by the way. This will look air November 1st. Yeah. Not long after that, we have a film called Endurance. where they, you know, a couple years ago, they had an expedition that went and found the the the actual endurance down in the Weddell Sea. And we use it as an opportunity to retell the Shackleton story from a 2025 perspective. And also really to kind of introduce that story to a whole new generation and that idea of leadership and grit and camaraderie that,
00:56:17
Speaker
we felt like was worth putting out in the world right now. That's an incredible story. I think it's all incredible for what what great leadership actually looks like is is kind of meaningful to me right now. So That's probably coming up next and and a few others and we can talk about it offline. Yeah. No, yeah. Appreciate it. Well, thanks so much. And, uh, we will, uh, we'll let you know when we, when we put this out, but, uh, really thanks so much for, for being here. thank you. Thank you for being such a great role model for me and someone that I've always looked up to and respected. And like I said, i have a have a Steve house filter.
00:57:05
Speaker
for my phone that's that's that's the nicest that anything anyone said to me in a while that's good i like that i like to hear that i uh had some influence on i consider you the younger generation even though you're not that much younger but yeah absolutely so much respect to you and thank you for having so much respect for you jimmy thanks for doing the work you do
00:57:46
Speaker
Hey, real quick before you go, everything we publish, the articles, new podcast episodes, and the live webinars are announced first in our newsletter.
00:57:56
Speaker
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00:58:07
Speaker
Thanks for listening and we'll see you in the next one.