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Voice of the Mountains: Legacy is Not the Measure with Max King
2 Playsin 20 hours
Max King is the only American ever to win both the World Mountain Running Championship and the World 100K Championship. He joins Steve House for a wide-ranging conversation about identity, competition, and longevity in endurance sport. Max traces his path from a chemical engineering degree and Cornell track team to Olympic Trials appearances in both the steeplechase and marathon, his accidental first ultra the week after a disappointing Trials prelim, and his eventual move into trail and mountain ultrarunning, including a recent attempt at the Barkley Marathons. The two dig into the tension between elite competitiveness and the collaborative, adventure-driven ethos of trail culture, how aging athletes renegotiate identity as performance declines, and why Max is drawn to races defined by history and mythology (Barkley, Dipsea, Mount Marathon) rather than media hype. The conversation closes on Max's diversified career (coaching, race directing, youth camps, a new sponsorship with the Chinese brand Kailas) and his hope to be remembered for what he gave back to the sport, especially through youth development.
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Transcript
Max King's Journey in Running
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm putting it off. That's exactly what Max King said when I asked him how our running life is supposed to end. I had expected something more finished.
00:00:13
Speaker
He has had the time to prepare an answer and the resume to back up any answer he chooses. Max is the only athlete to ever win the world championships at both mountain running and the 100 kilometer.
00:00:28
Speaker
Two events that are just from disparate ends of endurance. He's 45 years old now, and the morning we spoke, he had already raced a local 10-miler.
00:00:41
Speaker
He'd been sick all week, two days into antibiotics, and on a small uphill, he dropped a pack of younger men who had been gunning for him since the start.
00:00:55
Speaker
A man like that could retire the way a friend of his did, with a party and an announcement. He could fade away quietly, the way most do.
00:01:06
Speaker
Instead, he gave me the most honest answer I've heard. He said, I've thought about it, Steve, but I'm putting it off. I don't have a good answer.
00:01:17
Speaker
I'm still putting it off.
00:01:21
Speaker
Here is what I want you to listen for today Not the winning, though there has been a lot of winning. Listen for how many rooms this man has built inside the sport of running.
00:01:36
Speaker
The youth camps, a race he directs, the store where the runners are, the five teammates he still travels with 30 years on from when they last raced together.
00:01:50
Speaker
Listened for a teenage boy at a team race in the Oregon high desert crossing the line first and alone, and the camp staff asking him, where is your team?
00:02:03
Speaker
He says that day changed him, and I believe him. This conversation opens our third season of Voice of the Mountains. And we are giving this season to the runners.
00:02:16
Speaker
To the culture of trail running, which I am coming to as an outsider. And to the people who have been inside it long enough to hold real perspective.
00:02:27
Speaker
Because the good stuff, as we know, always bubbles up only after the years have done their work. When my body stopped delivering what my identity was built on, I thought I had to choose who i would be next.
00:02:45
Speaker
But Max is doing something different. He is not solving the ending. He is widening the middle until the ending loses its power to define him.
Early Running Experiences and Influences
00:02:58
Speaker
So listen for the moment he tells me what he cannot answer, and then ask yourself what you are putting off and whether or not that might be the honest answer for you.
00:03:15
Speaker
My name is Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mountains.
00:03:29
Speaker
If you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan. Head on over to UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go, and once you sign up, you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans.
00:03:46
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go. UphillAthlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
00:04:00
Speaker
Max King stands alone in the annals of American distance running, being the only athlete ever to win both the World Mountain Running Championship and the World 100 Kilometer Championship, two events that sort of sit at opposite ends of the endurance spectrum.
00:04:15
Speaker
Born in California in 1980, Max has built a career of staggering breadth, competing it at an elite level from the 3,000 meter steeplechase on the track to six-day, 380 kilometer mountain traverses.
00:04:29
Speaker
His competitive range running from 356.5K to 214.0 marathon to a 6-hour, 27-minute, 43-second North American record at 100-kilometer distance, as well as an incredible victory just a year or two ago at Dragon's Back Race across Wales, is probably unmatched by, i think, any American runner past or present.
00:04:55
Speaker
Max is now in his mid forties and still winning races. He co-directs the bend marathon. He runs youth trail running camps and he does it a little bit of coaching. And like so many of us, when he was younger, he tried all the sports. He grew up outdoors, camping, hiking, surrounded by mountains. He tried soccer, football, basketball, baseball.
00:05:17
Speaker
and in his own words was terrible but all of them, which all changed one day when he tried running for the first time and won the 3000 meter race at his first track meet. Max, welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Voice of the Mountains. Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's quite a pleasure and an honor.
00:05:34
Speaker
Well, the owner's all ours. We're a fellow Oregonians. We were just chatting a little bit before the show. And you kind of grew up in the Southern end of the Cascades. I sort of grew up in the the Northeast corner. And now you lived in Bend where I once lived nearby for for ah a chunk of my career. And what ah shout out to Central Oregon for just being amazing, right? Yeah, no, it is amazing. I didn't actually think about that either. Like where we grew up was kind of ah almost, well, it was opposite corners of the state kind of as far away yeah far a ways we could get from each other. That's hilarious.
00:06:07
Speaker
I remember when I was 12, my uncle who was teaching high school at, uh, Grant's pass at that time, not so far from where you grew up. He was like, yeah, let's go do this backpacking trip down the rogue river. So we, and I, and he, but I was like, that sounds kind of hard. And he's like, ah, it's downhill. I mean, you just go down the river. So the trail's downhill. The trail was anything but downhill. I was imagining like this. And I remember like him telling me one day coming, dragging into camp and he would just leave me. He would just like take off. And i came into camp who knows how many hours later behind him. and
00:06:43
Speaker
i was just, my feet were killing me and I was whining and he just looked at he said, Steve pain is temporary. Wow. That's harsh for like taking a kid out there and just dropping him in the Rogue River Canyon. That's hilarious. That's great.
00:06:59
Speaker
<unk>s I love that trail down there. I mean, that's beautiful. Anytime I can get down there, I do. And I love that area. It's an incredible area for anyone who doesn't know. i think that's one of these little, i love these hidden gems around Oregon that they're not...
00:07:15
Speaker
I don't know, famous national parks or big destinations like you get, like, yeah i don't know. Obviously those big destinations like Yosemite, like everybody needs to go to Yosemite. Absolutely. But the Rogue, I mean, that's, it's not Yosemite, but it's very, very, very beautiful and special. Yeah. It's special. And I, and it's funny thing. I grew up, i spent three years in Merlin, Oregon, which is right there, oh come the jump off point for getting on that rogue river yeah trail and Glees is right there. And I, I was like, we basically had a house right there on the river. Um, right there as you kind of come into Glees. And so spent three years there and I'm still angry with my mother for selling that house and moving us to Medford area, central point. Um, in fifth grade, cause it was amazing out there and we had acres of land to run on. It's kind of where I, I grew up just kind of running through the woods out there and man, I loved it. And so that area is yeah particularly special to me. And I go back there all the time and it's really cool cause it's my, you know, that child at home you first remember.
00:08:19
Speaker
so Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. What was that like that first time ran and felt that? I mean, it sounds to me like maybe this is we've myth mythologized? Yeah.
00:08:35
Speaker
Maybe we've we've told, maybe the story has been turned, told too many times, but are was that like a moment where you just like, this is, this is it. Was this just pure talent? Was it, you know, what was that experience like? Well, that's like, you know, those like those couple years, like I was in Grants Pass, that area, Merlin, i was i was too young. Like I was, it was second through fourth grade basically is growing up there. But all I remember from those days is, you know, getting outside, being outside all day long and just running through the woods. I don't remember it as as far as like, oh, this is great because I'm running. It's just like I spent time out in the woods and I just liked...
00:09:17
Speaker
just being outdoors. And so I'd like kind of formulated this whole ah game, basically of being outside or play army, you know, I'd build forts and play army, I'd hide from cars as they drove down the road. It was kind of this, you know, perfect, like, uh, just what kids I feel like need to do. Like, you know, it's like, they don't, I mean, but it was perfect for me. um in how I was brought up in that in those years.
00:09:44
Speaker
And then we moved into the suburbs into Central Point in fifth grade. And it wasn't, you know, it was sixth grade or so when I started running the PE mile and, you know, I'd run the mile, do great.
00:09:55
Speaker
And look back and there's the rest of my class. And now as you know, in seventh grade, i I got into like, that was the first year we could run track. And I knew I was going to run track because I'd been doing, you know, baseball and um played ah basketball and stuff like that. And like you said, I was terrible at it.
00:10:14
Speaker
And so just from that PE mile, I knew like, oh, as soon as track comes around and I have the opportunity to do that, I'm going to do it. We didn't even have cross country at that point. But once track rolled around, i got into track.
00:10:27
Speaker
And yeah, it was kind of like one of those things of like, oh, yeah, this is kind of where I belong. This is what I'm good at. um Whether it was like I was doing the shot put for some meets, I was doing the high jump and the long jump in middle school as well. But I so i ran the 1500 and the 3K as well.
00:10:45
Speaker
And those are my best events. Like I go out, blast around the track and and do really well. And so it was kind of like that natural like, okay, like this is what I'm good at. Like this is, I guess this is what I'm going to do. So um and I stuck with that for a long time.
College and Team Dynamics
00:11:02
Speaker
So that was kind of part of my question. Was it the was it the winning or the feeling you're good at it? Or was it something else? Was it like, a what was that sense for you? I mean, not not now, like not the not today, but then. like What do you think it was back then? Then... it was definitely the winning. Like it was, it was being good at it and winning. And I know that because once I got into high school, that was what I was after. And so training, like turned a page a little bit. I wasn't running for fun. Like it wasn't that much fun anymore.
00:11:33
Speaker
was running by myself in practices and I was, because I didn't have like a, the greatest coach, he was a good coach, loved the guy. But he was a sprint coach and didn't really know like, oh, you guys should hold back a little bit and not go all out every single day. And so that's what I did. I just went out. I ran like five mile course as hard as I possibly could thinking that was how I was going to get better. ah And, you know, you're, you know, as well as anybody, like you do that every day and running is not going to be very nice fun after a while.
00:12:01
Speaker
So, so that's what it was. It's like it became that competition because i was good at it and because I wanted to win. rather than just for the love of it.
00:12:11
Speaker
um And that's what I, you know, every every time you transition from, you know, whether it's high school to college and then again from college to real life, it it upends all of that sports stuff. And you're like, you kind of reevaluate everything going into that next phase of your life, whether you want to do it, whether it makes sense to continue on um doing that just because it's, you know,
00:12:39
Speaker
Going into college, it's like you hope you get a scholarship from the sports you're playing in high school. If that's not the case, you might look at it of like, well, school's be really hard. i don't I don't know that I really need to continue doing this thing that, you know, I don't really like all that much. I've just been doing it because I was good at it. And then I'm going into college where now I'm not going to be that good at it.
00:12:59
Speaker
And so I don't know if I need to continue it Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. It's interesting to hear you say you did so many different events. And I think so many people listening will identify with that. Like me personally, in high school, I ran the 3000. I ran the 1500. I ran the third leg of the four by 100 meter dash relay.
00:13:20
Speaker
ah Sorry, not dash, but relay. And I pole vaulted. And my strongest event was actually pole vaulting. with it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, but I loved all of them and, you know, drove my coaches crazy, but but whatever, like I just traded for pole vaulting and and ran the other things to score points for the team or try to.
00:13:38
Speaker
Right. Yeah. You, you're kind of like filling in. Yeah. Yeah. Now you're filling in scoring points for the team. My coach would, I tried to do pole vault. My coach would not let me do pole vault. He said, Max, you can, you can pole vault practice one day and then you're done. so that's what I did. I went over to the pole vault. I got one day of practice and he's like, now you're done. i don't care if you're good at it. I don't care. You're done. Cause we got to score points at the distance events and you're dangerous and you can't continue on in this sports. Yeah.
00:14:08
Speaker
That's so funny. So you went to Cornell and ran in college. And how was that transition? Like you said, some of this sort of fell away. You needed to. And I and i think that this is so interesting to to understand like what that transition was like as a runner for you.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah. ah And this was like, this was a big deal. Like going into college, like I was going for the education, not for sports. I ended up going to Cornell because I got like not athletic scholarships, but sport like scholarships to run in college. Like that's the way the IVs work, right? It's like they don't give athletic scholarships, but they do have scholarships set aside for people who are on um in sports and stuff. It's a little bit different. So like I was definitely recruited into college and I'm like, I was pretty unsure of like even going in over the course of that summer, whether I wanted to continue running, but I'd been recruited for it. i was on the team.
00:15:08
Speaker
So i was like, well, I'll give it a try and and continue on running. And so that's what I did. Once I got there though, like I realized like with a different coach who knew what he was doing and would pull us back a little bit.
00:15:22
Speaker
With a team that I got to run with every single day now, um it was a completely different atmosphere and a completely different thing in college than it was in high school.
00:15:33
Speaker
um It wasn't me going out alone, pushing every single day as hard as I can go. It was... you know, actually training and that actually became really enjoyable. And I loved it.
00:15:44
Speaker
Um, the teen aspect of it is what got me through college. Um, that was one of those things of like, I've always said to people like Cornell was really hard for me personally. Like I was in chemical engineering. I was taking, you know, four technical classes and elective class every semester.
00:16:03
Speaker
um And it was really hard on me. um I did not want to go back after my first semester. It was kind of like I had gone from straight A's in high school to getting B's, C's and shoot, I even got a D in my first engineering class. And it's like, i don't know if I can do this. was like,
00:16:20
Speaker
I don't feel the same as I did in high school. um I learned to live with that side of things, of just getting through it. But what got me through the rest of the three years was that team and having that team of runners around me and that support system.
00:16:34
Speaker
um i see a lot of people come into college and give up all of that just to focus on academics or to like you know go into a frat or a sorority or you know this the social social aspect of college.
00:16:50
Speaker
And i I always feel like that's such a mistake because that was the one thing that kept me in it basically and got me through those those last three years of college. um It was huge to have. It made me really appreciate that team dynamic and that team atmosphere. Made me love training. And I did like it got way more out of me than...
00:17:14
Speaker
I don't know, than I ever would have by myself. My potential went through the roof and I did really well in college and eventually made it NCAA championships in track and field and cross country.
00:17:26
Speaker
Goals of which i never even imagined like starting out my freshman year. Tell me more about that group. Oh, I mean, that group. So on Wednesday, i leave to go down to Tahoe for a ski trip with five of those guys. um So we every year we have ah a ski trip with guys from the team. And so i still keep in touch with touch with them.
00:17:50
Speaker
Those five guys are, um, they're pretty much the only five people that I keep in touch with over the past, like 30 years, um, high school, college, anything. Um, and they're guys from the team.
00:18:02
Speaker
And so, You know, you know, this is well as anybody does when you are on a team like that and doing very difficult things with them. It it kind of binds you guys together in a very special way that you don't get from anything else.
00:18:19
Speaker
And it's that hard work together. It's suffering together, all of that. And so that's pretty special. And so I still have that going. And um yeah, it's it's it was cool.
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I think there's something to to it that in that, you know, the doing hard things, as you said, but by doing hard things yourself, you're it's very vulnerable, right? You're like...
00:18:45
Speaker
you know you're at your limit, you know, you sometimes like kind of, I wouldn't say breaking down, but like, you know, you're raw, you're, own ah you know, you're exposed emotionally as well as physically and to be around other people. that And then, you know, how it works in a team like that, you don't all,
00:19:05
Speaker
sort of have your rawest moments at the same time typically, right? You sort of go, on you know, you you take turns, if you will, and you all get to see all of each other and they your best and worst. And that has amazingly, it's like, I think ah the parallel for me is my climbing partners, right? It's maybe different in the sense of a team, but um but very similar thing where the guys that I've just seen, I'm absolutely like,
00:19:32
Speaker
crawling on their knees and still somehow pushing through and what that does to ah to our connection i think that's really interesting yeah yeah absolutely i mean yeah and you guys you know as far as climbing partners go it's not a like a formal definition of a team but you guys are more of a team out there than i would say we are even in cross country because you guys are relying on each other for your lives um and that is that's a very cool aspect of it you know it's like you guys have that connection because your life depends on it.
00:20:00
Speaker
And I think that makes it even more so, you know, whereas we're, we're not in that state of emergency out there, but at the same time, we're doing like day in and day out. And we're working toward that same goal at the end of the year too. um just like you guys are. And so we work through an entire season toward this one goal every day. We're out there like busting our asses and just working really hard. And So at the end of that, especially if you make your goal, like it, it kind of really kind of shifts everybody's kind of like mindset from individual to like the collective team aspect. And that I saw was really cool. We would,
00:20:40
Speaker
You know, one of the, one of the people I still keep in touch with is my coach from that timeframe, Jerry Smith. Um, he lives in Syracuse now and he's the person that I attribute just getting so much out of me. And he was like old school, wore dressed in all black, carried a stick. Um, and the gray hair, just like a mop, you know, just flowing. Yeah.
00:21:03
Speaker
Everybody thought he was crazy. He would make us work harder than anything I have ever done before. And it kind of like built that foundation that I've kind of used in the rest of my career of like, I did that in college. I can do anything now.
00:21:17
Speaker
We used do hour and a half, hour 45 hill workouts where we'd just be running up and down hills in the summertime in Ithaca, New York. Uh, we do the hour of power. He called it. And it was basically an hour long hill repeats of a mile long, as many as you could do in an hour.
00:21:34
Speaker
Um, he'd, you know, he'd be so pissed at us after we got back from a meet where we didn't run up to our potential. The next morning we would get a drilling and then we'd be out the door for a hard 20 miler.
00:21:46
Speaker
We get back from that 20 miler and he'd be like, Nope, you're not done yet. Get on the track. You're going to do a hard 800 now. So it's like wow things like that. You just, you put yourselves through and everybody's in the same boat and everybody's hurting. And we all have to kind of be like,
00:22:03
Speaker
all right, coach said we need to do this. We got to do it. And like you you just, you find out what your body's capable of when you put yourself through that kind of stuff. And it's always capable of more than you thought it was, which is kind of cool.
00:22:18
Speaker
And so I use that as kind of that marker for the the rest of my life. It's like, you know, you can always do more than you think you can, which is cool. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:22:29
Speaker
And I mean, there's so many threads to pull
The Role of Competition and Sponsorship
00:22:32
Speaker
on here. One of the things that is really interesting to me about, you know, coming from at this as ah as a climber,
00:22:42
Speaker
is the competition aspect. Because that's something that I never... like Once I stopped doing... like Once I left high school and stopped doing... like And even in... you know I never consider myself as very competitive anyway.
00:22:55
Speaker
But that structures so much of running up up to a point, this the the whole competition. And you mentioned... you know I wanted to say you guys... as a team, there's the team competition and there's the individual competition, right? So like there are both of those, components. And I think people focus on like, oh, he won the race, but you know, the, the team competition is just as important.
00:23:20
Speaker
So I think that that's a super interesting. Yeah. Just interested in the, the role of competition and how, how that I, so here I have this thesis and ah and part of my thesis around mountain sports, and I'm going to call trail running. One of those is that i think that, and and one of the things that I want to pull out and I'm just going to, stay I'm just going to come right out and state my um biases here that I don't think that competition is always the best thing.
00:23:57
Speaker
tool to use and always the best way for us to show up in society. Like, of course, you know, we very, especially in American culture, like we really idolize competition and being the best and being number one, all this stuff. And I think there's there's a lot of places in life where that is actually not productive or or helpful or doesn't get us the results we think it's supposed to get us. I think that there's a lot of life where being collaborative and being able to understand different points of view and and being able to build things together as a team are like far more important skills than trying to get one person to the top of the ladder.
00:24:37
Speaker
And i think In climbing, i feel like that's, there's ample evidence for that or from my own experience because we don't compete.
00:24:48
Speaker
We just don't. And, and, and for the most part, I mean, they are climbing competitions, of course. How does that in, and in, in trail running, I feel like one of the things that's so interesting is the huge breadth of events that there are now from a 50 K to 300 miler
00:25:07
Speaker
you know, out and backs and, you know, loops and, you know, ones with lots of support and then things like Barclays. And I mean, there's just like this massive range of, of things, some of which, you know, UTMB finals is going to be about crowns, you know,
00:25:24
Speaker
trail of the year or whatever or the world champion and then others like Barclays I mean you know you just win by surviving and complet and and completing it ideally yeah which not very many people do so like How does competition, like as you go through this, you're at Cornell. it's I mean, it's an IV. It's very, I mean, chemical. Of course, you didn't even you didn't even pick an easy subject, Max. Come on. No, I know. Yes. One of the hardest things to do. And then and and i edit it and I'm a veteran of organic chemistry. and that was That was the hardest thing I've ever done.
00:26:01
Speaker
So how did you Like, how did you process that? How do you think about competition then when you were in college? and And then I want to come back to like what your perspective is on it now, but what was that like then being part of a team and competing and racing and being in this incredibly, I presumably I wasn't there obviously. And, and didn't go to an Ivy league school. I went to, but how?
00:26:26
Speaker
How was that competition for you at that time? ah I mean, that's kind of I mean, the competition side of things is kind of it's what I've built my whole career on. Right. And so it's been a big part of like everything that I do. Right. And most runners do, right? I mean, they do. They they kind of have to. I mean part of like, if you like, not everybody has to, there are definitely those runners out there in the community that are those adventure type athletes. Like you would get in climbing and skiing.
00:26:55
Speaker
You just don't know who they are because they're kind of out there on their own doing their own thing. And they're not showing up to the local races and competing. totally fine. Like there's, you know, that is a completely ah valid way to go about the sport of running and, um, something that I commend people for at this point, because I see that as actually a ah positive thing for me personally, like I like both sides of that. Like I really enjoy getting out there now for that adventure aspect of the running. And I just go out and it's a very non-competitive day with some friends like doing, you know, a mountain traverse somewhere.
00:27:32
Speaker
On the other side of that, like I love competing um and I like that competition side of things. I like beating people. i like beating myself. And so in that respect, like that's kind of like what's kept me in it to some extent um over the years of just like, oh, I'm competitive still. Like I want to keep doing it and I'm going to work hard and train to hit a goal, a competitive goal that I want to hit.
00:27:58
Speaker
And so that's kind of kept me going and kept me in it. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day of like, as I've aged and as I've gotten further along in my career, that is becoming less of like a driver for me, less motivation because I can't continue these training blocks like I used to. And I know you said you didn't want to talk about training, but here we are.
00:28:22
Speaker
um well And so that like it's changed over the last couple, five years or so of me getting older. I want to, I want to go into the mountains and and be it on a big adventure. And I want that.
00:28:34
Speaker
I would love for the model of sponsorship to be able to accommodate that in running. But if you're trying to be a professional athlete in running, it's all about that. competition side of things. Whereas in skiing, climbing, um, some other sports like outdoor sports, it's not dictated by how fast you are and how many races you win, but by how bigger projects are, um by like the cool things that you're doing and the, the scenery that you're moving, moving through. And I see running as a very similar sport, but all sponsorships been dictated by that competition side of things. Um, and so,
00:29:13
Speaker
I'd love for it to kind of transition a little bit and to accept some of that adventure side of things, because I think there's a spot there for that sponsored athlete to make their living off of like being out there in the, in the mountains, just doing cool stuff.
00:29:30
Speaker
Sorry, we got off on a little bit of a tangent there, but that's kind of the way how I'm viewing that competition is like, that's where I've come from. i love it. I like beating people, but it's changing for me at the same time. And so I see where both sides are valid and are part of that sport. And You know you mentioned the collaboration side of things. like you guys are You see certain things where collaboration is is more advantageous than competition.
00:29:55
Speaker
And I'll give you an example of that. like In the running world, Barclay is exactly that. I learned that last week. It was much more of an advantage to be collaborative with a group of five of us than it was for me to like try to push off the front because I just end up at a book looking for it and everybody else would catch back up to me and we'd all be looking for it. And so there was no point. It was like that collaborative effort was much more of an advantage than trying to all of us break the race apart early on. It was just working together made it made it better. so There are those cases.
00:30:32
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't think there's any tangents. This is all just a natural conversation. And I think that's so so interesting. So one of the things that I'm i'm curious about, and you mentioned not being able to do the training blocks, and you mentioned which would like sponsorship and running to evolve. And I couldn't agree more. And i' got to say, like, I think that there, you know, the, the, I did a podcast with my past longtime friend and climbing partner, Mark Twight. And the, the, I titled it the responsibility to remain because I've been trying to get Mark to come back into the climbing community more.
00:31:18
Speaker
Because he's got such wisdom and so many interesting things to say and so much perspective, so much to teach, so much to share ah in his mid-60s that, ah of course, he's not climbing hardly at all anymore because his body's destroyed.
00:31:34
Speaker
But he has so much to give. like it's it's like It's like this stuff that he has now is like the best stuff of his life. And I think that, you know, it's a lot like, you know, great writers or great painters, they often do the very best work of their life at the very end of their life. Cause it takes all that experience base to be able to see something new or in a different way, or to, you know, to, to create a, to kind have a really strong point of view on things that other people see, but can't quite find a point of view on. And so that's where I think that, you know, that's where your to me, I may interject this is i where I see you and some of the other guests we have on here, your role is to have a point of view that you can only have because you've done all the things you've done, you know, yeah,
00:32:28
Speaker
And that gives you clarity and a perspective that other people just can't have. Like whether it's a CEO of a clothing company or somebody who's just been, you know, the the latest upstart hero that won the race last weekend. yeah They don't have that, but Max King has that.
00:32:46
Speaker
Well, I mean, I don't know if i have everything or or the answers to all of it or anything of it really. But yeah, I mean, to some extent, like I've been around now. i I've seen a lot. I haven't seen the most. Like there's guys in their 60s who are still in the sport that I look up to um that have seen a lot more than I have because they were in it from the very beginning. And so they see, they've seen more change in the sport and stuff. And that's super cool to me.
00:33:13
Speaker
um i look back at... you know, just how things were before i even entered the sport in about, you know, 2008, 2010. And, um, and it's, it's, it was completely different 10 years before that. And it's completely different now than it is, uh, than it was when I entered the sport of trail running. And so,
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's great to see those changes. it's It's great to experience all that and feel like I've you know been around for ah a
Aging and Adapting in Running
00:33:43
Speaker
while. um And I'm going to be here for a long time, which is, you know, that's my goal. That's why I look at those, you know, 55, 60-year-olds and be like, I hope I'm still running it at their level when I'm that age.
00:33:55
Speaker
so Well, you will be. And 55 is not that far from 45, believe me. fine No, I know. Let's try it. I just told somebody the other day, man, I'm closer to 50 now than I am to 40.
00:34:08
Speaker
And then my friend goes, yeah, but you know what? You're closer to 60 now than you are to 30. And I'm like, ooh, yeah, you're eight. Yeah. You know, this motivation thing that you described is so interesting. And I want to, a lot of people...
00:34:25
Speaker
once their best results, let's say from a abject competitive viewpoint are past them, their motivation kind of starts to erode.
00:34:37
Speaker
And this also connects back to this kind of idea of aging, not aging, but like older athletes and sponsorship. Where does that motivation continue to come from for you? You just talked about how much you love to compete and win and you use those as like goals for your training and all these things.
00:34:56
Speaker
and And now it's less and less likely that you're going to be on the top of the podium in every race you enter. And that's a natural way of things. It's nothing wrong with that. We all accept that.
00:35:07
Speaker
And where does that continued motivation come from? Or it sounds like it's almost even increasing and sharpening. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I mean, I i won't sugarcoat it. Like, I don't want to get slower, you know? It's like, i I don't like the fact that I am getting slower and I've started to see that.
00:35:29
Speaker
I still go into every race, you know, race that I enter being like, yeah, I'm going to win. I can beat those guys. I used to beat them like five years ago. I can still beat them, you know, if there's somebody in the race who is like pretty high level and I'm like, I'm going win.
00:35:43
Speaker
i until i Until I get beat by him, I still think that can beat him you know and that's ah I don't know. like That's my mindset going into these races sometimes. The competition is...
00:35:56
Speaker
ah the competition is I realized like I have to change those expectations to some extent, you know, that's just hard to do. um And so I, I'm trying to like draw that out as long as I possibly can by training, by still training hard. And I don't know, for whatever reason, like I'm not having a hard time still training.
00:36:19
Speaker
I'm having a hard time, like I mentioned, like with those, like having the motivation to get through those full training blocks. And that gets harder because I think my body, it it is seeing some changes. It is breaking down a little bit. i'm i I don't recover as fast as I used to. I still feel like I can run as fast as I used to. And so I still do on in short you know bursts of like a couple of weeks or so.
00:36:43
Speaker
But to be able to carry that out for weeks at a time or months at a time, I can't really do that anymore. So that's where I feel like I'm slowing down a little bit. I just can't keep that intensity up as high as I ever have been.
00:36:55
Speaker
And so while I can pop up there for a little bit, I got to come back down. And so I'm trying to like just draw that out of my might speed it out as long as I possibly can. And in doing so, like I'm still like...
00:37:08
Speaker
I feel like I can still compete with some of those guys. Can I still compete and run like UTMB and expect to be in the top five? No, I can't do that anymore. I've, I've realized that. And like those expectations are kind of gone, but can I, you know, I just ran a 10 miler this morning and, um you know, my friend that's 26, he was gunning for me. There was a high school kid out there gunning for him. So they were both gunning for me. And then there was another kid in the shop that just, moved here two weeks ago, he's like, oh, I might finally be able to beat Max. And so he was gunning for me. We had a group of about five people just like the charging through about five miles.
00:37:44
Speaker
And then I just dropped the hammer on a little uphill and I was gone. and I was like, yeah, still got it. i just so i felt great about that. Yeah. Especially after the GRD I've had all week. That's been a rough week. So yeah. That's a, that's a bad way to cut weight. Yeah, I know. I know, but it felt light. yeah,
00:38:03
Speaker
Uh, yeah, no, I've had that all week and then I started some antibiotics, uh, think it was two days ago and it's amazing what antibiotics will do for you. So I, I felt pretty good in the race this morning, but it was like things like that. It's like, it's a local race. It's a 10 miler and it was super fun.
00:38:19
Speaker
So if you line up at one of these races and you, there are some guys that you're, you think you can beat and you don't beat them, not today, but another day, like afterwards, what happens to your identity? What is that inner dialogue?
00:38:36
Speaker
I mean, that's a hard, like, yeah. is I'll be honest. Just like what it was. No, I know. I'm trying to be honest. I'm trying to like figure out like, how do I actually feel? And, you know, for the most part, it's like, I'm super happy for them. I've, I've always been like i am I'm a very gracious loser. At least I i want to be. um And while there's a little like tear in my heart when somebody that has never beat me before beats me, I'm really happy for them. um One, it either means that I'm getting slower or they're getting better and either way, like whatever, that's cool.
00:39:10
Speaker
Um, I, I like that, you know, I like people that I can compete with when i have a race, like with someone head to head, um, and we're just battling it out.
00:39:23
Speaker
That is more fun. Even if I lose the race. than if I go out and I run an entire race all by myself and win the race. I will take that, like be like like competing with somebody head to head, you know, every time over just going out and like obliterating the field. Like that's, it's more fun to do that because I like that competition that's like ingrained in me.
00:39:47
Speaker
And so like, but if somebody beats me, um and it's pretty high level and they've never beat me before. That's a little like, ah, man, that stings a little bit. You know, they've never done that before and it's happening more and more now. Um, and that's why I go back.
00:40:07
Speaker
but Sorry. I didn't mean it up. No, that's right. I just like, it's not happening that often, but it's, it's happening. And that's why I'm trying to draw it out basically. And what, but what is that?
00:40:19
Speaker
What is that little voice on your shoulder saying to the, to like your identity? This is what I'm trying to get out. Like our identities, your identity is a runner. My identity is a climber. Like it's so much of who we are for so long.
00:40:33
Speaker
And at a certain point, Like for me, I'll admit like, and it was also more than 10 years ago, it was like 15 years ago when I started to really notice like, oh man, like I'm not the physical, physically capable of what I used, I ah came to expect and even take for granted.
00:40:52
Speaker
And then like this whole voice, like there's this whole conversation, like, who am I now? Like, who do I, who do I become from here? Like that was me. Like, and now that me is sort of dissolving.
00:41:06
Speaker
you know, that was how I saw it. Yeah. It wasn't yeah dissolving. It was just shifting. How does that, and you may be very early in this process and, and, and I'm just, that's why I'm trying to like poke and figure out where you're at what that voice said. Cause you're not alone, right? Like this happens to so many, this happens everyone at some point.
00:41:26
Speaker
Yeah. And some people, happens very early. Some people very, very late. You know, there's lots of ways this can go. And our audience is generally not at a, like, let's call it elite athlete ah audience. They're audience that that has jobs and families and also loves trail running or mountaineering or climbing or whatever. and And they're doing, you know, at least three or four different different things. And they have their own identity, but for a lot of us that grow up and are good at a sport, and then we reach a certain point and we are not as good anymore,
00:42:01
Speaker
I mean, nobody notices more than we do, right? Right. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And well, and I guess that's the point, right? It's nobody notices it more than we do because you've, e like, I've been thinking about this a lot the last couple of years of how, how to like end your career.
00:42:18
Speaker
Like you do just up and retire and say, I've had friends do that of like, I'm done. I'm out. I put it up on social media that I retired and I'm done. I'm done. There's people that just kind of fade away and gradually like continue to compete or they just stop competing altogether and just kind of fade away.
00:42:39
Speaker
I've been struggling with that of... I am getting slower. Do I, do I just fade away? Do I retire? i I don't want to retire. I'm not going to retire.
00:42:53
Speaker
Like I had a a buddy here in town, like did that. He had a retirement party. He's younger than I am. He's in his, he's 39. yeah, and did have a retirement party for his, his professional career. And i was like, Nope, that's not me. I'm going to keep competing as long as I possibly can.
00:43:09
Speaker
Um, and just keep it going. I'm, I imagine I'm going to fade away into the sunset at some point. um And I have, I've, I've thought about it, Steve, but I'm putting it off.
00:43:22
Speaker
And I, that's why I can't, I don't have a good answer. I'm, I'm still putting it off. Um, and I don't know what I'm going to do when that time comes and be like, yeah, I'm just not as good as I once was. And I'm not, I so i see it already, but I can still do the types of things that I've always done and want to do a there's going to come a point when that's not going to be the case anymore. And I'm just going to be out there, ah in a race just to, you know, just to run it, not to really compete for the win.
00:43:53
Speaker
And I don't know what I'm going to do at that point and then or how I'm going to feel, I guess. So yeah I don't know. Could I suggest, uh, something? Yeah. it It doesn't have to be black and white.
00:44:07
Speaker
And I think that that's what feels like where you're at. and And I think I also felt this pressure like, oh, I have to decide now. Am I this or am I that?
00:44:20
Speaker
Actually, people were just fine if I was, would have continued to be both. Like I became a father and I started running, you know, writing more books and, you know, coaching. And then Uphill Athlete grew into a ah thing and I started operating that. and Mm-hmm.
00:44:36
Speaker
And people were just fine if I did that and the other thing. And they didn't really care. like They were just happy that I was happy. Does that make sense and And I think that that could that could be okay. I think we put so much pressure on ourselves. And I can only imagine that in they they come The competitive aspect of running makes that so much harder because there is sort of a there's yeah, there's a podium and there's first, second, third. Right.
00:45:07
Speaker
Yeah. It almost like that side of things is a little more black and white. You're either on the podium or not. Right. Yeah. At the same time, like, and that's why I like I mentioned the like moving toward being more of an adventure athlete, because you can continue that longer. There's no timeframes or goals that you're kind of shooting for with that. It's just being out in the mountains and doing what you love to do.
00:45:31
Speaker
And that side of things doesn't pay as well. You're not going to be a full sponsored athlete. But that's also why like over the past 10 years, I've started to diversify. Because at some point, like even in my early like 35-ish, right?
00:45:44
Speaker
I'm starting to see like, I'm 35. Like, I should be over my career, but I'm not, I'm having the best years of my career, but at some point this is going to end. I need to do something else. So that's when I started with my running camps, like just to diversify a little bit, I'm going to move into something else and make it so that I'm, you know, I doing something else, um, for the sport rather than just competing. I want to give back to the sport in some way. So I started doing youth camps. um And then I took over the Bend Marathon. And that was another like avenue of like, okay, I need to provide for the family.
00:46:16
Speaker
I need to and you know pull my weight. And I can't just rely on athletic sponsorship because honestly, that that's not going to work for trail running anyway. So I need to diversify like just my income stream too. So i have the Bend Marathon. I have the reality.
00:46:31
Speaker
Yep. It's reality, right? And I work at a running store. it's like I have seven different jobs. um They all revolve around outdoor sports and running, um but diversified in my portfolio, if you will, if you want to sound like a hedge fund manager. It's the practical side of me. I'm not like all in on one thing or another. It's like I'm hedging and I'm i'm very risk averse. and so Even when I started this career path, I went from chemical engineering, I did that for eight years,
00:47:05
Speaker
And then i was like, I kind of want to try this career path of being a professional athlete. I want to see what I can do. And when I did that, it wasn't like one day i was like an an engineer and the next I was just a professional athlete. It was engineer to professional athlete slash, um, work at a running store. And that's half my income. And it was diversified at that point. And those things have changed over the course of the years.
00:47:30
Speaker
And so, like you said, it's not black and white. And for me, it's never been black and white of like sponsored athlete or not. I've always had these fallbacks of like, yeah, you know what? If I get hurt ah in a in a year or two, like I'll be okay. Like I'll figure it out. And I've always got these these fallbacks in mind of like, ah, shoot, at some point this career is going to be over. What am I going to do then?
00:47:56
Speaker
And what is my identity going to be when it's not being a runner on top of the podium? And, you know, it helps to kind of diversify and figure some things out. So like you have a pill athlete and you have to have other things and I have the bend marathon and I have my running camps and, um, all of that sort of stuff. And so it really helps in your transition from being that athlete to being somebody that is in the outdoor space or, or specifically mine, the running space without having to rely on being at the top of the podium.
00:48:30
Speaker
Cause you're not always going to be, there's always going to be somebody faster than you and it's going to beat you. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, think that that's, that's,
00:48:43
Speaker
so So many ways, so many things I'm thinking of, you know, like I've told this story before, but, you know, by ah i a very close friend who unfortunately died named Uli Stack, who was an amazing alpinist from Switzerland. And his brother was a professional hockey player.
00:49:00
Speaker
And he and I used to have this conversation ah in our 30s. In our late 30s, we were about, he's a little bit younger than me, like three or four years younger than me. And, um, He used to say, well, somebody tries out for my brother's job every year.
00:49:15
Speaker
i was like, what one, one year he didn't make the team anymore. Like, and he was whatever he was, i think he was 30 or so. I mean, you know, those, those kinds of like really, especially full contact sports, you know, and, and power sports, right? Like you, you just don't, uh, you're, it's hard to skate as fast into old age, old age beyond 30 as it is to, to run events.
00:49:40
Speaker
And so, yeah, just one year, didn't have a job anymore and had to go be a carpenter, which is what what he was originally trained to do. So if you've been wondering whether one-on-one coaching is the right next step for your training, this is the month to find out.
00:49:57
Speaker
Sign up for coaching and receive a free 30-minute call with one of our specialists. Visit uphillathlete.com to learn more. Now, back to that show.
00:50:09
Speaker
it's It's just so interesting that in the mountain sports, we are sort of insulated from this in the sense that of... it is pretty black and white for lots of professional athletes. Like if you're in the and NBA or you're in the NFL or you're in the and NHL or whatever, like you either make the team or you don't, it's pretty black and white. But I want to go back to sort of one of the black and white things that I'm very curious about. And I i didn't know this about you and I've followed you for years was that, you know, you were a four time
00:50:41
Speaker
Olympic trials qualifier. You did steeplechase and you also qualified for marathon. What was that? Like, that's a, that's an instance where it's very black and white.
00:50:56
Speaker
Tell me about that era, part of your running career and what you look back on now and think about as being, let's I'm curious about, of course, sort of the extremes. Like what, what do you, what did you love the most about that? And what did you, dis what what do you think was the, served you the least well in that, in that time period?
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, well, that was, so that was kind of a time where it was almost like a black and white, like I took, I took two years off of work, about a year and a half off of work in 2007, eight, um, moved just myself over to Eugene to run with the Oregon track club. Um, just specifically with, um, the, the goal of the Olympic trials at the end of 2008 or middle of 2008.
00:51:44
Speaker
And so that was that was the time frame of my my career where i was just an athlete. I lived and breathed like professional athlete all day long.
00:51:55
Speaker
And Steve, it sucked. Like it was, it was not that much fun. I felt like a drain on society. Like it was amazing. Like I had, I had some small injury issues at the time kind of pop up and I just, I, I had a couple of really good races. I got my PR and the steeplechase during that time, but the Olympic trials race went terrible for me. I didn't even make finals. That was the first time in about, I think three years,
00:52:23
Speaker
um of running the U.S. championships that I did not make finals. And so it was kind of a bust for me. And I looked at that time of of being like so focused on one particular goal and putting so much energy into it and almost choking, like kind of like on that on that goal at the end. Like we heard in the Olympics, you know, last week of like, oh, they' put they've they've been in a US champion for the last like however many years and they just choked at the Olympics. It's like you put a lot of pressure on yourself where it's that big final goal that you've been building up to for that many years.
00:53:00
Speaker
And sometimes you just like circumstances just don't work and you just don't make it. And so during that time, like that was, so the the story goes of like, I did the Olympic trials prelims.
Transition to Trail Running and Challenges
00:53:15
Speaker
Um, i didn't qualify for finals. And so the next weekend was 50 K race down in Ashland, Oregon. And I jumped in that 50 K cause I was so mad at myself for failing to make finals that I jumped in my first 50 K race that weekend. And that began my, yeah, my first ultra before I ever did a marathon at that point.
00:53:37
Speaker
And that, uh, that kicked off my trail running and ultra career basically, uh, was that, And over the years from that point forward, like that was the end. I went back to work for another two years. And then I i made that switch that I was just talking about into being more of an athlete and working in a running store.
00:53:56
Speaker
I had to make sure that I had kind of that that part-time piece because during that time when I was with Oregon Track Club, I just didn't, I didn't enjoy... I like, I enjoy the training. I enjoyed that side of things. But then I would go home after 10 o'clock in the morning and like sit around the rest of the day and not really have anything to contribute.
00:54:15
Speaker
Um, and it didn't feel good. Like I didn't like that feel. Um, and like I realized now, and which is why I kind of do a little bit of everything is like, I got to have other things in there to fill my life up, um, rather than just that training piece.
00:54:31
Speaker
Um, it just makes it more, ah more rewarding life for me personally. Yeah. Um, and what I realized like over the next couple of years, like I made another, um, another Olympic trials in 2012 in steeplechase. And that same year I made the the Olympic trials in the marathon.
00:54:49
Speaker
Um, both of them in like, I think like a four or five month period there. Um, because I took all that pressure off. I've been running trails. I'd been running more and I'd been keeping up that high performance intensity, um and gaining a lot of strength from running these mountain mountain races in Europe.
00:55:09
Speaker
And so I was better prepared for those events than I ever had been in my life when I was just fully focused on it, which was kind of cool. um And so like had my, my, what did I, what did place that year? I can't remember what I placed in the marathon, ran my fastest time in the marathon at two 14 and then came back a couple months later and ran the steeplechase and was six day Olympic trials.
00:55:32
Speaker
So I was pretty proud of that. honey Yeah. That's a, that's a lot to be proud of. i think it's, do you think when you look back at that particular, that first steeplechase, was there something in you that sort of self-sabotage that or was it just purely bad luck? Yeah, no. I mean, there was some self-sabotage to some extent. um Like I mentioned, like I had a little bit of an injury issue that I did not know what was going on.
00:56:00
Speaker
And i was looking to the support system that we had around us on the team. the coach for like pushing me through workouts when it just hurt, um, to the, to the massage therapist, the chiropractors, you know, the trainers who didn't really know what it was, but I kind of, I wanted them to figure it out. And I was just in pain every day.
00:56:21
Speaker
Um, and not really like being able to kind of do the amount of training that I wanted to do. So part of it was that injury of like not being able to train properly,
00:56:33
Speaker
But, i you know, looking back, I was probably pretty well trained, but I didn't have the trust in the system because they couldn't figure it out. And so to some extent was like me being a little bit mad at the coach um because he didn't understand what I was going through and um and things like that. And so that's a little bit of that self-sabotage of just thinking like that negative thinking that doesn't do anybody any good.
00:56:55
Speaker
you know? Yeah. I mean, so many, I mean, everybody manages this at some point, right? Like whatever their level, I think. And we somehow, some part of us think so. We don't deserve to be here or we didn't, like who knows what the things are that come up, right? But everybody, everybody, i think that's a universal experience and I don't think you need the the competition for that. Yeah.
00:57:21
Speaker
One of the things that fascinates me with trail running is,
00:57:28
Speaker
when, and, and again, like I'm purely coming at this, I'm going to declare my biases, like coming at this as a climber, right. Where like the mountain is there, the season is two months long. You can kind of walk over there anytime during that window and expect sort of these general range of conditions and you can go up there or not. Like the weather might be bad on Sunday, but good on Monday. Like it's, it's all this sort of very, i don't know, chaotic thing, but with racing,
00:57:56
Speaker
it's On this day, at this time, the start right and in this place, the gun goes off and this is the start and this is the finish and whoever's across the finish line first wins. It's, it's very, ah so kind of structured in a way. And I, when I was first learning about training,
00:58:16
Speaker
I was always really perplexed by this, like how to deal with this as a, as a mountaineer, not knowing exactly when my, when to peak and all that kind of stuff, I would get all geeked out on that. But with, with that,
00:58:32
Speaker
what is the difference between running that, that 50 K down in Ashford and as a race versus running that same exact course one day or one year, nine months and three days later and running the same distance.
00:58:52
Speaker
What is, what is the, what is the difference to you? What, what is, what changes between having the other people around that you're competing against or not? There's, yeah, and you're getting at two parts to that too. So the one piece is the people around you in a race atmosphere. And that's that competition side where my body elevates. Like when I get other people around it, like I'm going to get more out of myself than if I'm doing a time trial.
00:59:22
Speaker
Like it just, like I have this ability to elevate, you know, and get more out of myself. The other side of that you're talking about of like, yeah, it's scheduled for a certain day. So, you know, kind of how to like ramp up to it and and schedule that stuff.
00:59:37
Speaker
I like the kind of the, the aspect of you have one chance. So this comes down to a lot of like those big competitions of like it's scheduled for a day.
00:59:49
Speaker
You're either ready to go or you're not. And I've always prided myself a lot on being ready to go and being somebody that can get ready to go at a moment's notice for a competition. And so no matter what the conditions are, and so the worse the conditions, the better it is for me, because I feel like that messes with a lot of people mentally, where that was coming from that that college training side of things. And my coach, that was one of the things that he instilled in me is like, you're ready to go.
01:00:18
Speaker
You shut out everything else around you. the conditions... don't matter. And the worse that they are, the better you're going to do. um and I've, I've carried that with me the rest of my life into all my competitions. And so the, like, if we get a race that's like wet and cold and nasty, it's like, Oh, this is it. I know I'm going I'm ready for this. Like, I love this.
01:00:41
Speaker
Um, do I like training in that? Absolutely not. but But when it comes to a race, it's one of those things that's like, well, you're, you're, you're, you're throwing more curve balls, that not only me, but the rest of my competition, I know I can handle it, but I don't think they can.
01:00:58
Speaker
And so it it kind of helps me. It's an injection of chaos, and that chaos will ah destabilize at least some percentage of the competitive field, whether it's 10 or 50 or whatever it is. And that just takes them off the kind of kind of plate for you, if if you will.
01:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. um And so <unk> I like not having that ability to kind of schedule that of like, oh, whether it's bad today, let's give it another day and we're going to do it tomorrow. It's like, nah, we're going, whether it's rain, snow, shine.
01:01:32
Speaker
Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. it One of the things I want to ask you about having you're one of the, I would say sort of OG ultra runners that also ran internationally, as you said, you know, you went to Europe and, and, and ran your world champion was in Albania world championship and trail was in Albania. I believe not a place that a lot of Americans were going to back then. um still kind of an off the ble beaten path gem of a country to, to visit and super beautiful.
01:02:07
Speaker
What is it? What is the, and you've, and you've also raced in Asia. What, what are the cultural differences? What's the difference between doing, like, let's try to compare oranges to oranges as best we can. Like, let's say like, um, you know, I don't know all the races you've done off the top of my head, but let's say UTMB qualifier in North America versus a UTMB qualifier in Europe versus one in, in Asia. What are, what are the differences going to be?
01:02:39
Speaker
um and so Yeah, and you know, there there are differences. They're not as big as you would expect, I guess. you So you've got the cultural differences of what's around, what kind of surrounds the race. Like you're going to see certain things like this race, this last race I did in, in Asia, in China, a couple of weeks ago was one of the biggest trail races I have
Global Trail Running Perspectives
01:03:04
Speaker
ever done. So it felt like a road race, like a big city road race. Like do we go in for packet pickup and it's booths landing an entire stadium, um, lights and like disco lights going. And it's, there's a stage with dancers. And I mean, it was, it was a full on production. yeah I've never really seen that other than maybe at like the biggest other like biggest trail races like UTMB in Europe.
01:03:30
Speaker
There's nothing like that in the US. We just do not have that. um Broken Arrow is probably one of our biggest trail races and and it's got the the expo and vendors and stuff that that has that volume, but it does not have that intensity to it.
01:03:43
Speaker
So that was really interesting. Um, out on course, you know what, like trail runners around the world, it's amazing, but they're kind of trail runners and they're for the most part, very, um, very courteous, um, once in a while, like, yeah and you've got a, you've got a spectrum of people no no matter where you're at. And France, you'll get, you'll be coming up behind people on the trail and, um, you'll say feast, feast and,
01:04:12
Speaker
half of them move and half of them don't come up half of it, do that same thing in the U and half of them move and half them don't in China. It's the same way. So there's in, in those respects, it's like, it feels like, you know, you could generalize some custom differences, but for the most part, it's like you're out there on the trails and trail runners are kind of trail runners and they're pretty courteous and, and pretty chill and nice.
01:04:37
Speaker
Um, like you do have, What I would say is like in the U S for the most part, trail runners are probably a little more just chill at the competition side of things than they are in Europe.
01:04:53
Speaker
In Europe, trail running is a big deal. Like they're competitive over there. And there's some guys at the front who are really fast. And there's some guys in the middle who are not very fast, but think they're really fast. Um,
01:05:05
Speaker
And so like they go out, you know, like they're elite runners and they get in front of the field and then they can't hold it. And then they start slowing down, but and they're like, no, nobody's passing me. and And then it just makes it difficult for like the people coming up behind them.
01:05:20
Speaker
You get like that uber competitive person, that group of people. And I would say there's probably a little bigger group of that in the, in the, in Europe, um, China, I probably, I can't say like in Asia that I've raced enough to know. Um, but I mean, it's, uh, it felt that race was pretty similar to anything else. I, had you know, bigger races that I'd run in the U S and stuff like that. So, yeah, I don't know. Um, there's not a, there's not a lot to like poke at it in there, I guess. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's, that's interesting. And I would say the same thing about climbers, you know, they're climbers are climbers kind of doesn't, you know, I've climbed in Japan, I've climbed in China, I've climbed in Nepal, I've climbed in France and, you know, ah climbers climbs are climbers, you know, yeah like in any group of people, you're going to have ones that you maybe get on really well with and you could have ones that you, you know, don't really like to hang out with.
01:06:15
Speaker
Yeah. That's okay. like it's so i think I think that that's that's true. for but the overarching culture is super inclusive and friendly though, right? I mean, that's that's what I love about trail running as opposed to other sports. And this is something that I was trying to pull out, particularly from you, because you have such an incredible and strong ah racing background. And as you've talked about, like you love to compete.
01:06:43
Speaker
And in trail running, and particularly maybe as an American, even though I'm i'm living in Europe, I, I, I, most of my friends are still in the States and I hear them talking about going to these races and just how incredibly collaborative it is. And, you know, the whole being out there with your pacer and people go, you know, like crewing is this whole subculture and, uh, uh, you know, there's people who are really good at it. And how does that, like, I'm trying to,
01:07:14
Speaker
I'm trying to have that fit the fact that people are also super competitive. and Is it, is it the people in the top 10 are super competitive and everybody else knows they're just kind of racing for, you know, to finish or, or to do a PR or to finish their first 200 or, or whatever. Or like, what is that piece that I'm not seeing that I don't understand as sort of an outsider?
01:07:40
Speaker
I mean, you yeah, you've definitely got the those two like groups, those two populations of people who you've got the really competitive people and you've also got the the ones who are out there to finish, right?
01:07:54
Speaker
and yeah And the finish group is is ranges from anywhere from like you know top 20% of the field all the way to the back. And the competitive... like side of that population is any from there, from the very front of the field to probably 50% of the way back.
01:08:10
Speaker
You know, it could vary a little bit there, but you get some crossover in there. But what's the beauty of it is like those, the competitive people understand um, you're competitive and you're trying to do your best and you're putting your best out there.
01:08:26
Speaker
You're competing against the other people around you, but you're also like out there as friends, right? yeah If some, if like one of the things that is explicitly stated at most trail races is, know,
01:08:39
Speaker
If somebody goes down in front of you and needs help, you have to stop and help them. And it's it's not like trying to remind people that it's like, oh, you just need to give up your entire race and just help that person. It's like, be a good person and help somebody that goes down. Your race is a lot less important than your fellow competitor ah being safe out there.
01:09:02
Speaker
And I think everybody gets that. um Maybe there's a few people out there that don't. And I've i've certainly seen those folks, um you know, but it's pretty few and far between. And it doesn't happen very often. I think people understand that we're out there to enjoy like the like nature around us, whether we're competing or not.
01:09:21
Speaker
this is a sport and it's meant to be fun and it's not the end of the world. Like if you, if you fail your race or if you don't make your goal. Yeah. You know, I lived in Southwest Colorado for 10 years and a bunch of summers when hard rock came around, I, I would just go watch and like go to some of the different checkpoints and just like,
01:09:42
Speaker
you know, catch the vibe and go up and watch some of the finishers. And I was always so impressed. One year i went up and it was like the race had been like, had won, been won like a long time ago. And at first I, we had to go to Silverton for some kind of other reason, but there was people still finishing and the cutout, you know, cutoff time hadn't been reached. And I was just so impressed. There was like a bunch of the top tier players.
01:10:09
Speaker
folks sitting there at the finish line, kind of waiting for the people to come in and congratulating them and getting up and running with them the last few hundred yards. And was like, wow, this is really, like, I didn't expect that. I thought that was, I thought that was super, super cool that, you know, you know, these people who had, i mean, they'd been done for, they'd already like had a shower and a burger and a nap and, you know, Then they came back out to the finish line and hung out and and and helped people finish. And I thought yeah that was that was yeah and great demonstration of the spirit.
01:10:41
Speaker
Yeah. And that side of things, like that is almost pretty unique to our sport. And that actually happened that year. culture was ingrained in it a long time ago um a lot of times based like guys like scott jurt and stuff back in the day when they were winning ultras and they would finish and then you know they might like grab a bite to eat and stuff like that but then come back to the finish line to cheer on the other runners coming in and so that's been ingrained in the sport of trail running for a very long time um that we don't really see in other sports very often, even in like road running and stuff like that. It just, it doesn't happen the same as the, as what it does in trail running. So yeah we try to keep that spirit alive. i feel like too, you know, we want to, we want to encourage people to come back out and cheer on their other runners and be there for kind everybody in the field and have it be a collaborative effort.
01:11:33
Speaker
Yeah. ah You know, ah ah stay tuned for the Scott York episode that will be coming up. I haven't recorded with him yet, but we're working on it. And one of the things like i got to say, like ah a mission time as a, when I was in my kind of elite climbing phase and I would look down at people doing the normal route.
01:11:55
Speaker
And I feel kind of bad about it now. I was hurt, right? Like I was just, I was arrogant and I just thought like, would you you you guys are kind of worthless. You're not doing anything interesting. like And at the same time, for a lot of those years, I was working as a mountain guide and I was guiding a lot of those people. Like, you just wanted to climb the normal route on on Denali. And then I would kind of have to switch into elitist mode to to go like, you know, climb a hard route. And I always kind of kind of struggled with that. And I felt like when I saw that at the Hard Rock, i was like, oh, okay. it' so like Again, this sort of black and white versus shades of gray. I don't have to just be one or the other. i couldn't can occupy all of the space. I can be like you know really good at this thing. And I can be really happy for people that are
01:12:41
Speaker
you know, as you said, like doing their best to achieve something that's really difficult for them. Yeah. And that's the point, right? Yeah, exactly. And that was, that was a lesson that i learned a long time ago. Back in high school, I went to running camp, running camp I work at now. It's called Steens Mountain Running Camp. um all's Southwest Oregon or Southeast Oregon. Steens Mountain is another like absolutely incredible place.
01:13:06
Speaker
Yep. um And I went to a running camp down there. And one of the things that they do during the week is what's called cross canyon. And it's a 5k race across canyon and literal canyon. out No trails, no roads, no paths, all just through sagebrush, through aspen groves and all cross country.
01:13:26
Speaker
And you do it with a team. And the team is your 20-person tent that you're roomed with for the entire week. And you all have to stay together and you have to finish together um holding hands. And so the year I was there, i was kind of a cocky sophomore. um And I was, you know, thought I was pretty good. And unless I thought I was pretty good, then I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't like holding anybody back. And so I took off.
01:13:52
Speaker
And I just made it as fast as I could because what I figured was like, oh, like I'll just worry about myself. I'm an individual. I'm just going to get to the finish line as fast as I possibly can and make sure that nobody else is waiting on me. And so that's what I did.
01:14:08
Speaker
And i learned a pretty valuable lesson that day because the rest of the camp counselors and the camp camp staff was all yelling at me when I got to the finish line. Where is your team? You're supposed to stay together. Like, and what are you doing?
01:14:23
Speaker
And I had to wait for the rest of my tent to come in and then we all finished. But it it was a really valuable lesson. And like, you can't just like treat it like you're an elite all the time. You have to like, there's a, there's a balance between these things and working together as a family, as a team.
01:14:41
Speaker
ah is really important in certain certain and circumstances. And so like ever since that day, like i have been you know it changed me. like That was one of those life-changing moments that I can still remember of like making it so that I have the ability now to lead these youth camps.
01:15:01
Speaker
and run with the kids and it'd be like, you know what, kid, you're, you know, you are doing great. You know, just keep moving. This is not what you're trained for. This is something that's extremely hard for you.
01:15:15
Speaker
And I see that you're struggling and you're doing the best you can. You just keep moving, man. Like I, we don't have to go any faster. You don't have to make it more difficult here. I can help you do this. Like, let's just get through this together.
01:15:29
Speaker
um And it takes that, that elite side of things, you know, that you're talking about off of, of there when you have other people involved and you find some empathy and compassion um for other people doing these very difficult things.
01:15:44
Speaker
And you can put yourself in their shoes a little bit better um and realize like what they're doing on a normal route where for you it was something that was easy for them as something that's really, really hard and very difficult. um And so you have to you have to be able to balance those things.
01:16:02
Speaker
Yeah.
The Fascination with Barkley Marathons
01:16:04
Speaker
So, you know, this is a great segue to Barkley because, you know, this is the opposite end of the spectrum from the Olympic trials where Barkley marathons, like nobody knows really what the course is. ah There's no prize money. There's no podiums. The start time isn't really, or even day isn't really known very, you know.
01:16:28
Speaker
Most people don't finish. I mean, hardly anyone is how many people people have been, have finished ever. It's like 10 or 20, 20 people, 20 people have finished it and and all the time, how many years it's been going on.
01:16:41
Speaker
It's just, it's the most sort of anti-commercial, almost philosophical version of trail racing that you could come up with.
01:16:54
Speaker
Why Barclay? What is it about that that attracts Max King to that? That's a good question. but it's going to be It's going to sound ah i don't i don't it's go to it's gonna i don't know it's going to sound a little self-serving, but it's kind of that that mythical draw of that race of like, it's like the pinnacle. It's a little bit of that pinnacle of our sport where something that I just have to try. And I know like aside from um ah the hype and everything of like UTMB or Western States, it's like this has its own hype.
01:17:38
Speaker
And it's it's not the media hype. It's it's the hype within the community. ah And and it draw it draws you in. And any like things like with some hype that from the community that is genuine and authentic is going to be a much bigger draw for me than like the media draw for things like UTMB.
01:18:02
Speaker
That i could I could almost care less about. But the community draw for the Barclays, like And the fact that it's one of those things that's like not possible.
01:18:13
Speaker
like Those two combined and the history behind it and the the ideas behind it and all of that is kind of what draws me in. But a lot of it is that that draw from the community, that mythical status of the Barkley community.
01:18:29
Speaker
from that community that I am involved with. Um, and it's so cool. Um, you know, it's like, it's at this point, I, after doing it, it's like a race that I feel like I'm, I'm probably never going to finish, but you know, it's like the further I get away from it now we're at like two weeks. Um, kind of like, yeah, man, I feel like I could do a fun run.
01:18:51
Speaker
And I feel like I need to go back, even though the trauma of it is still there. And I want to want to give it a little bit longer before I decide. um and is But it's you know it's the the things that draw me in in this sport are are different for me than they are a lot of times for
Historical Races and Bucket List Aspirations
01:19:12
Speaker
other people.
01:19:12
Speaker
I get drawn in a lot by tradition. um history um by things that are like mythological, like we're talking about, um yeah that are very different, that are kind of unique outliers, um things like that, um that are just very unique. And so things like Western States, it was the first hundred miler.
01:19:37
Speaker
Ever. It's first hundred miler I heard about because I kind of grew up in Sacramento to some extent. Yeah. Um, you know, Dipsy, I'm trying to get in a Dipsy this year. It's the oldest trail race in the U S it's a handicapped race that makes no sense. I mean, the handicapping makes total sense, but it's, it's a, it's a strange one-off one-off format that is very unique.
01:19:58
Speaker
Um, mountain marathon. It's the, like basically the oldest mountain race we have in the United States. One of the hardest races that we have in the United States. One of like the, one of the ones that has the oldest history and it's ah off of a bar bet, you know, and that's the reason the whole thing exists. Like, that's cool.
01:20:16
Speaker
Barkley is no different for me than a lot of those types of races that are unique outliers that are kind of like must do's in our sport. And so I have a whole bucket list of races that I got to do now um that I'm kind of slowly chipping away at.
01:20:32
Speaker
You know, I think that that's part of the great part of aging, I feel like, is I've started to become, for myself, more focused as like, oh, there was this thing that I really wanted to do or this place I really wanted to see. and at this stage of my life, I'm making sure I do those things, right? And, you know, and that that exploit that that that applies to a bunch of things outside of climbing, but climbing as well. Like,
01:21:01
Speaker
And I can imagine with, you know, how many, given the sheer number of races you've run, that there's got to be like a little bit of but of a list in your head. Like, yeah, I've done that. I've done that. I've done that. What haven't I done right? Yeah, exactly. where where where else What else is there to experience and to see and to understand and to be a part of? Like it's like it is it is there because you show up and engage with these other people who actually show up and engage. Like if none of you showed up, it wouldn't be a thing. And so yeah participation is important. It's just as important as the, you know, blowing of the conch shell to to start it all off. Right. Like it's like, there's gotta be people there to, to, to take off when that goes off.
01:21:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And yeah, there, I have this whole list of things now that I've, I've got to go experience and do and different parts of the world, but even, you know, the dips is not too far away from home. So it just like these, these cultures, these running cultures and communities out there that I haven't got to gotten to experience are the things that I'm checking off that list as I'm i'm getting older. And, um,
01:22:11
Speaker
Part of me like staying motivated to, to like continue to train yeah are these types of races, my bucket list races that I do need to check off. a lot of them are competitive and I still want to do well at them. So I want to continue to train for those. So it gives me that care, you know, to take and motivation to train um and keep me going a little bit longer.
01:22:35
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Trail running used to have that one, for me at least, defining event, the 100 mile. You know, the first one I heard about was a Wasatch 100 because my first sponsor was Black Diamond and one of the designers, like Andrew McLean, he either ran it or he won it or something. were all just like, whoa. I know Andrew.
01:22:58
Speaker
Yeah, you know Andrew. And so, yeah small small world. And it was just
01:23:05
Speaker
at that time, it was the first time I heard had heard of anybody running a hundred miles. And I, it took me like a few weeks to like even process the idea of doing that. Right. And now there's all these different formats and distances. And as you said, there's also these incredible, like kind of historic things like the mountain marathon, which is what, like three miles, but it's yeah straight up and straight down and then mountain and right out of Seward. And then you know, have, you know,
01:23:33
Speaker
have you know, like even UTMB itself, the distance kind of changes a lot of times because in different years, depending on whether they may route the course different ways. And so the actual course may be different distances. And so you can't really compare like one time, one year to another year, many times and those kinds of things.
01:23:53
Speaker
What, What does it say about the sport that it refuses to be defined by a single event? Like why didn't trail running just stick to the hundred miler or the 50 K? Like there are plenty of 50 kids and a hundred milers, but like, what does that say about trail running and trail runners?
01:24:10
Speaker
Well, I mean, like, i think that you've got to have that, the, the variation in there and that, that breadth of of distances in order to get to that one hundred miles. Cause you can't go from like, you know, you were the road running you have basically you kind of have up to the marathon and you have 50 K 50 mile, a hundred mile after that on the road, but you have a lot, this huge base of road runners. Right.
01:24:32
Speaker
And marathon kind of tops out right there. And a lot of those road runners, they trickle over into the trail because they're like, ah, I want a different challenge. Oh, they can't jump from the marathon to the 100 mile. Like, it can.
01:24:45
Speaker
I've got it. But but it's a long ways to go. I wouldn't i wouldn't recommend it Um, but for every, everybody out there who wants to kind of get to that one hundred mile distance, you have to have those intermediate distances. Right. So that's one reason is just the practicality of like building up to that. It's like, oh, well you want to get into trail running, like do a 10 K first and then run 20 miler and then a 50 K and 50 mile, hundred K, hundred mile.
01:25:11
Speaker
And then you've got like, you know, for me, like I didn't want to just jump right into trail running and go from my steeplechase training to a hundred miles. It's like, I wanted to utilize and I still do. I very rarely do I jump up to a hundred miles and and treat myself like a a true, like ultra runner that just does long distance races. Cause that's not my strong suit. My strong suit is about the marathon distance or below half marathon to marathon is where I'm really strong.
01:25:40
Speaker
And I want to race trail in that bandwidth because that's where I'm strongest and that's where I'm competing the best on the world stage.
01:25:51
Speaker
And that's two, right? And you've got... and you've got These trails that are absolutely phenomenal trails, these routes that aren't 100 miles, like take Sierras and all. It's really old historical trail race. Goes from Sierras down on the valley floor in Switzerland up to Zinal.
01:26:12
Speaker
And it's 20 miles ish. And it's like, that is a classic course because you're going from one city to the next up over this huge ridgeline. And it's like, well, that's the distance. Like the course dictates what the distance is. It's not a hundred mile trail. You've got, you know, these two end points and you don't want to like start tacking on a bunch of distance just to make it into a hundred miles. Cause that ruins the entire integrity of the race. Yeah.
01:26:39
Speaker
And the course is set and dictated by the terrain. So that's another reason. It's like you get all these different distances within trail. It's like you don't have like road running. You've got 5K, 10K, half marathon, marathon, and they're exactly right.
01:26:54
Speaker
The beauty of trail running is you don't have that. they're Anywhere from like this race this morning that I did is a 10 miler. Well, it's the Mastendon 10-ish miler. And the ish is of officially part of the label because it's not 10 miles, it's 10 miles-ish. you've got all these different distances. And the course is dictated by the terrain and the trail distance. And you pick the start, end point, and that's course. um And I love that about trail running. It doesn't have to be as structured as road running. It doesn't have to have you know all of those guidelines that dictate exactly how far things are.
01:27:33
Speaker
well One of the things that drives me nuts the most about people, um other runners, being like, you know, oh, that was, they called it a 10-mile course, but it wasn't 10 miles. It's like, because it was on a trail, man. It doesn't matter. Like, you know, you probably cut ah cut off a couple corners in there. If you didn't take the tangent on that corner, then it doesn't matter how long it was anyway.
01:27:57
Speaker
And so like, it drives me nuts about people who are like, well, it wasn't a marathon. It was 27 miles. like, yep. They called it a 26 mile or a marathon, but you know what? It was on a trail. It doesn't matter.
01:28:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah I could see that. When you, one of the things that we, we touched on, I want to dig into a little bit is kind of this, ah before we sort of wrap it up is this,
01:28:26
Speaker
This idea of of sponsorship and of of the sport developing and you developing as ah as an athlete.
Partnership with Kylas and Community Impact
01:28:34
Speaker
And you you recently, or i don't I don't know the timeline exactly, you switched from running for Solomon to running for Kylos.
01:28:43
Speaker
And that's a ah brand that comes from China that is, you know, obviously there's there's big brands. upswell in interest and participation in all kinds of mountain sports and in China in the last 10 or 20 years. And this is one of these brands that's kind of come out as one of them. They have a big impact and I see them in in climbing here in Europe all the time with their, their people using their equipment and clothing and You are the first American athlete, I believe. So walk me through kind of that decision. What did you see in them? What is it like for you to be a sort of a pioneer for them in this American market, ah that they're presumably trying to get into
01:29:31
Speaker
probably a lot of American runners don't know about it yet. What, what does that look like from your point of view? What do what do you what do look getting from that personally with that challenge? Yeah. Um, that's a good question. Like I'm,
01:29:42
Speaker
I had a lot of reasons for switching to Kyla's. One of the big ones for me was, um kind of moving to a company that I felt like was really embodied mountain sports and was really involved in the community and wanted to like,
01:30:02
Speaker
to really focus on that because I love that, that like mountain brands. And ah so I really wanted to like go with a company that had like, um, just that heritage behind them and that focus in front of them. Um, and i saw that from Kylas and it's been an amazing and amazing experience so far. And I'm really excited for the partnership because, um, they, they're really committed on like to like just fostering the sport, not only in China, but other places as well. Um, and so I, I saw that as a pretty big advantage, um, to, to going with them.
01:30:38
Speaker
Um, about 2015 ish, they started getting into trail running. So pretty young in trail running, um, on the grand scheme of things. Um, but they're huge in China, right? Like they have a huge market share in China. They've done really, really well.
01:30:54
Speaker
Um, great shoes, um, great equipment. Like said, like climbing equipment is in Europe and stuff like that. um They started putting more money into Europe. So they've got some like sponsorships in um France and Italy now of like athletes, but also races. They're selling over there.
01:31:13
Speaker
They're, you know, part of their goal is to move into the American market eventually. And so I think that was kind of like I'm their precursor to like kind of building their brand in the U.S., Um, so getting the word out about it, you know, just making it so that it's a little bit more aware. Um, nobody here knows what it is. Like everybody's like, what's Kyla's? I've never heard of it.
01:31:34
Speaker
Um, and it's just like, um, it's just a brand that's newish on the stage and, um, kind of like coming into their own in a lot of other countries and really young in the U S and other countries. So I'm excited to see where things go. They have like this, this, like one of the things that I'm, so I'm super excited about is, um, what they have is called a few Fuga mountain club in China.
01:31:58
Speaker
And it's these offshoots of like, basically like trail running clubs all over China. Um, that is basically like building up and fostering the sport. Um, so when they said that, i was like, oh, you guys are putting your money where your mouth is. You're building the sport from the ground up by, you know, basically like creating all of these little small clubs and then inviting people to join them.
01:32:21
Speaker
And I thought that was really, really cool. And they have a huge youth contingent over there as well. Part of the reason, um, they went with me, uh, is just because of my youth camps, um, and building that component up. and getting youth into the sport they saw as a huge advantage. Um, and they'd love to see more of that as well. So that's what we're trying to do is just kind of build, um, kind of trail running from the ground up, um, starting with the youth, um, and just with good product and stuff like that. So.
Reflecting on Career and Future Contributions
01:32:49
Speaker
Yeah, and i think it's really smart of them to to, and it gives you an opportunity to really take the wisdom that you've earned from the last, you know, couple decades in the sport and help help shape something that's that's ah probably you have a bigger impact, frankly, there than you would ah have had been able to have at Solomon where it's more i would guess more entrenched right they've been that sport for a long time so that meant that makes a lot of sense what
01:33:26
Speaker
when one of the things we we didn't talk about or didn't even allude to was you went through a period where you you sort of gave up on running. You, you went out and camped in Lake Tahoe for a couple of months and just sort of thought you might be don was running. You're 22 years twenty two years old and you know, if you could send a ah message to that 22 year old version of you up at Lake Tahoe and correct me if I'm characterizing, mischaracterizing this, what would you tell your, your 22 year old self that was doubting whether or not the running path was something that you really wanted to do?
01:34:11
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, I don't know. That's, I mean, it' tough like yeah it's tough. tough cause it all worked out really well. I, you know, at the time, like I was burnt out from college from having that really intense four years there. And so hey I needed a break from running and it was a great break and it was a good thing that I did it because I don't think I would be here if I had tried to push through.
01:34:38
Speaker
i think, you know, what, um I think what it did for me is kind of reset expectations for this sport that I ultimately love. I just didn't know it at the time.
01:34:51
Speaker
um And so in kind of like taking that time to reflect on that and reset those expectations, that helped set the tone for the rest of my career. And it's why I am where I am today.
01:35:03
Speaker
I think if I had... come out of college and thought, oh, I'm a professional runner. and then I would have like, and try to get a sponsorship or whatever and make a go at it at that time.
01:35:14
Speaker
It would have been probably three or four years, burnout again, not seeing a lot of like success or sponsorships and then go into go into chemical engineering and I would still be there, you know?
01:35:28
Speaker
Whereas I did it the opposite. And I liked, I liked that opportunity to do the, the job that career had that career in my field at the beginning.
01:35:39
Speaker
And I did that for about eight years. And then I transitioned over into that, um, into that sponsored running side of things. And now I'm where I am and I really enjoy what I'm doing and want to keep going.
01:35:51
Speaker
Um, and I don't think that would have been the case if i had done anything different. So, Telling myself to do something different doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe I would have said, you know, like, stay the course, do what you want to do and and make sure you're you're kind of doing what your heart tells you to do.
01:36:11
Speaker
You know, I think at that time, probably I was, I was conflicted on, on what I was doing, but I don't, it's been so long ago. I don't really remember if I was doing what I wanted to do, or if I felt like I was pulled, being pulled into running. Cause I don't think I was, I think i I, kind of organically got pulled back into the sports that I kind of really enjoyed doing.
01:36:32
Speaker
And so after some time off, I started just moving again, biking, hiking, climbing, um swimming, all that sort of stuff. um And then got back into the sports and then whittled them away until the one that I was both good at and I truly love the running side of things was what I ended up with at the end of the day.
01:36:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and it wasn't meant to pose a question of like, if you would have told yourself to do anything different and maybe you just would have told yourself to like stay in it and like you're like you're on the right path. It's going to work out. Just it may feel like a dead end or a black hole or a swamp right now, but that's just part of the process and you got to go through that and then it's going to all work out.
01:37:25
Speaker
Yeah. how would you like to be remembered in terms of running and your running career? oo oh man. Everybody with that question comes up with some like profound response.
01:37:43
Speaker
but And I just don't know if I've got It doesn't have to be profound. Sometimes it's too simple. So no pressure. No, I just, that's one of those things like... What's true for you?
01:37:56
Speaker
I've thought about it, but i don't I don't know that I've ever come up with a truly, like, a true answer that I feel like I want to be remembered, like, as this, you know, as this thing.
01:38:08
Speaker
I guess it's, you know... somebody that did a lot for the sport that hadddle had had like a good impact on it over the course of everything he did.
01:38:20
Speaker
I don't just want to be remembered for, you know, running great races and, you know, winning the world championships or, you know, whatever. I want to be remembered for the work that I did with the youth more than probably anything. Um, but for,
01:38:38
Speaker
giving back to a sport that has given me so much, um, and being able to have the lifestyle that i so much enjoy. ah feels like so much of that work is still in front of you. So what a great place to be. Yeah.
01:38:53
Speaker
I feel like it, it, I am hoping that it is. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure. Well, thanks so much, Max. It's been really wonderful talking to you. Been a big fan for a long, long time and I've always enjoyed following your career. And it was great to kind of connect and and get to get to dig into not only your history, but your philosophy of running.
01:39:14
Speaker
Well, thanks, man. Thanks for having me on. This was a pleasure and a great conversation. Thank you.
01:39:30
Speaker
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01:39:41
Speaker
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01:39:52
Speaker
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