Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Living walls in biophilic design with UrbanStrong
86 Plays4 years ago
GUEST / LILY TURNER / URBANSTRONG NYC
HOST / MATT MORLEY / WELLBEING CHAMPION
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction: Wellbeing & Sustainability in Real Estate
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome to episode 39 of the Green and Healthy Places podcast, in which we explore the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and interiors. I'm your host, Matt Morley, founder of Biofilico Healthy Buildings and Biofit Wellness Concepts.
Green Building Tech with Lily Turner
00:00:26
Speaker
This week, we're in New York City, talking to Lily Turner, Director of Operations at Urban Strong, a company providing green building technology solutions for enhanced productivity and wellness benefits.
00:00:38
Speaker
In particular here, we focus on living walls and living wall dividers. Lily does reference Alan Burchill a couple of times. That's Urban Strong's principle. We have Alan lined up for a subsequent episode already where we're gonna talk solar and green roofs in urban environments. Lily meanwhile is quite the green wall expert.
Living Walls: Benefits & Constraints
00:00:56
Speaker
Our discussion covers the health and wellness benefits of these living walls within the wider context of biophilic design, the practical constraints of installing a living wall,
00:01:06
Speaker
Mosswalls is a hassle-free alternative in low or no-light scenarios. The air-purifying, noise-reducing and mood-enhancing benefits of these installations, as well as the interplay between green and healthy building certifications, citywide legislation on this stuff and the type of interior green noise solutions offered by Lily and Alan at Urban Strong.
00:01:28
Speaker
If, like me, you normally listen to your podcast sped up to 1.5 normal speed, you may want to bring this one back down. We're in Brooklyn, people. Expect a short, punchy convo with just the touch of the borough's background noise for authenticity. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit subscribe. We release new episodes every week. Lily's contact details are in the show notes. Check out clubandstrong.com. Let's do it.
00:01:53
Speaker
Ili, awesome to have you here on the show.
Brooklyn Navy Yard Showroom
00:01:56
Speaker
Why don't we start with you describing a little bit of the showroom that you're currently sitting in? Because I can see it, but listeners can't and there's lots to talk about. So why don't you tell us what you've got? Yeah, sure. It's amazing. I come every day and walk into a jungle, which I'm very thankful for. But our studio showroom is located in the iconic Brooklyn Navy Yard in Brooklyn, New York.
00:02:16
Speaker
Since Urban Strong is technology agnostic, meaning we offer several different green wall technologies depending on project goals or design parameters or a course budget. That being said, our studio is full of different living wall systems, small and large, everything ranging from $300 to what could usually be $100,000 or $200,000 system. And they all feature different irrigation designs too.
00:02:42
Speaker
That's a key thing, right? The idea of the different irrigation
DIY Living Walls & Irrigation
00:02:45
Speaker
designs. I know there's a lot of different solutions out there. So if we're mostly talking about vertical gardens today and their various shapes and sizes, right? So before we sort of jump off into any other directions, why don't we just talk a little bit about those living walls and the systems that are out there and which ones you work with in particular? Yeah, so like I said, we offer just a range of different living wall technologies. We have
00:03:11
Speaker
Everything from the DIY, where I like to refer to as the PIY, plant it yourself. They're fairly intuitive designs, all encompassing. So really all that's required for these little plant frames is that you just mount it to the wall using nothing different than a couple of drywall screws and anchors, like you'd be mounting a shelf or a painting. And then there's dedicated pockets for you to plant these four to six inch potted plants in. And the irrigation design with those systems are a capillary wicking action.
00:03:38
Speaker
So it's no different than a tiki torch concept. You know, there's a cloth or a string draped in a little reservoir of water, and then it creeps up the cloth and the plants' roots get the drink that way.
Challenges: Water & Light Requirements
00:03:50
Speaker
In terms of constraints in installing a wall, keeping it alive in the medium term, I know there are some horror stories out there about walls that just sort of die and then need to be replaced. Sometimes I think, certainly with clients I work with, there's a sense that, oh, it's just something you can, it's so easy to install. But then when we get into it, perhaps there's sometimes, there are
00:04:12
Speaker
There's issues, for example, like getting access to a water source and things like that. So in your experience, what are the hurdles that someone should be aware of before jumping into a living wall? So just being conscious of what precautions can be taken in advance so that everything runs smoothly. Sure. Of course, with any living thing, and let's just focus on plans for today's call,
00:04:37
Speaker
water and light sources are required to keep plants not just surviving, but thriving. So of course, a reliable and somewhat automated irrigation design is necessary for all living walls. If you don't have immediate access to plumbing, which oftentimes retrofits or light renovations don't, then a recirculating irrigation solution is required, which just calls for a submersible silent pump, no different than what you'd find in a fish tank. And then in terms of lighting,
00:05:05
Speaker
Every living wall manufacturer designer has their own minimum or their own standard for the amount of foot candles and exposure the wall receives. For us, we're a bit higher and a little more strict on that, but we require artificial lighting to be brought into the space if there's not enough natural lighting exposed to the wall.
Advancements in Lighting Tech for Living Walls
00:05:24
Speaker
Is that a particular type of artificial lighting or is it a particular type of LED?
00:05:30
Speaker
compliment the lighting industry, they've really come a long way. A lot of people still actually think when they hear grow lights, they think of those really disruptive red and purple shining lights, but now there's a ton of amazing LED lights, metal highlight lights on the market that can match the warm interior lighting of the other fixtures. Anything from like 2,700 to 4,000 Kelvin, the lights really, or the living walls, I'm sorry, really appreciate
00:05:55
Speaker
So is it the intensity or the color spectrum that's of most relevance for the plants? It's a bit of both. You know, plants read a certain color spectrum, the reds and the purples, and that is needed for them to photosynthesize, but also a certain foot candle level is required for them to be happy. And that's even true for our low light tropical plants. So within that, there was then a piece, I think I just want to pull that out, but you know, while there is
00:06:25
Speaker
perhaps the sort of large scale, large format installation. I can see that you also have these smaller solutions and that was sort of where we connected, looking at these panels. So you can have these sort of standalone panels now that have integrated light and an irrigation systems, right? Because in a sense that they're kind of complete solutions in one. You can almost sort of move them around within a space. Yeah.
00:06:48
Speaker
Right, absolutely.
Mobile Living Wall Dividers in Offices
00:06:49
Speaker
I think you're referring to our mobile living wall dividers, and those are a lot of fun, and they're increasing in popularity as well. I suggest those to designers and architects on a weekly basis. They're great for the post pandemic return to the offices, and they're more living and thriving than those nasty, flexy glass or acrylic partitions that you might see in spaces. But with our mobile living wall dividers, you're absolutely right. We have a LED bar that kind of cantilevers from the top,
00:07:16
Speaker
And then a water reservoir, depending on the unit, can hold anywhere from 100 to 150 gallons of water. So all that's needed is a standard 120B outlet, which is usually found in office space versus some of our customizable larger living wall systems that we spec. You know, we need a proper water source and cold water zones running through. We also need drainage. And then again, we need to bring in the artificial lighting so that can get a little costly.
00:07:43
Speaker
then effectively there's two paths ahead. There's ones where you just need a smaller scale intervention and one where there's a bit more space available and you have the slightly more practical considerations in it. So cool, I think that's very clear. But if we take a step back then and look at the why behind this, you know, one sometimes ends up in conversations around biofilia and sort of nature first, right, and it's almost as if
00:08:09
Speaker
Nature in itself is an argument and justification for doing these things. On some romantic level, I guess it is, and certainly I'm sort of in that camp, but often there's slightly more practical considerations around, okay, well, what's the, I don't want to say ROI, but why are we doing this beyond it looking good? So when you talk about biofilm design, when you talk about the benefits, the wellbeing, mental and physical benefits of being surrounded by or spending time close to one of these
00:08:38
Speaker
green interventions within an interior space. Typically, what are the sort of key points that you're leveraging there?
Benefits of Living Walls: Environmental & Economic
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad you asked about that. You know, like you said, living walls are first appreciated, and for good reason. For their aesthetics, they're, you know, considered obvious striking forms of art. But like you said, they offer, you know, a myriad of different benefits from environmental, psychological, physiological and economic. So first, I mean, just touching on environmental benefits.
00:09:07
Speaker
plants have the ability to purify the air. They should be thought of as natural air purifiers. And oftentimes, indoor pollution levels caused by things like cleaning products or building materials, carpets, paints, mold, they can be even worse than those outdoor pollution levels. So in most living wall systems, the plant root zone absorbs volatile organic compounds such as benzene, formaldehyde, acetone, ammonia, to name a few. And it works like this. The air is actively drawn through the plants and the growing medium.
00:09:35
Speaker
and then the cleaned air is then redistributed throughout the building. And then also for environmental benefits, we like to touch on reduction in urban heat island effect, which in dense urban areas and concrete jungles like New York City, the use of plants, parks, living walls, and green roofs really work to reduce the heat island effect by cooling the ambient temperature around. Plants also are wonderful, like noise absorbent or noise pollution mitigators. So plants can absorb about
00:10:03
Speaker
up to 40% more than traditional facades can. And then, of course, increase in biodiversity with exterior living walls. This has been depleting, again, in dense urban areas as we continue to develop with hard materials like concrete and glass. So living walls just provide those alternative ecological habitats for migratory species. And then for more psychological and physiological benefits, people just feel more relaxed in natural settings.
00:10:33
Speaker
This is the premise to biophilic design or just biophilia in general. So we as living creatures share that deeply affiliated association with life and just simply put, life is attracted to other forms of life. So in this innate affinity for life, this provides opportunities for building owners and designers and architects to really foster environments which elicit positive responses from their tenants or their shoppers, workers, patients, whoever's interacting in that space. And then
00:11:03
Speaker
I just think it's the way you described it. There's this combination, this balance between the yin and the yang, between the sort of down-to-earth, the practical side around sound absorbing, noise absorbing, but also helping to purify the air, and the slightly harder to pin down and quantify, probably more of a qualitative benefit, but completely there, right? I mean, you can't quite
00:11:31
Speaker
describe why, but this is ultimately the biophilia hypothesis. There's just this connection in all of us within our psyche.
Biophilia: Health & Productivity Boost
00:11:41
Speaker
It's the same reason why it feels good to have a quiet moment in a garden or a forest, just to listen to the birds sing, just occasionally to do that and be
00:11:51
Speaker
and natural animal versus being this kind of like urban version of ourselves. And I think, you know, with enough of space, with enough space given over to these green walls, you can really start to get into that. And I think that's the magic, the magic of them. Absolutely. You know, we as humans are just so deeply connected and interwoven with nature and the natural world and realizing that, I mean, it is starting to become measurable.
00:12:19
Speaker
Some of it can be considered or perceived as a bit of a reach, but there is substantial evidence, white papers and journals produced around productivity costs and creativity costs associated with the worker. Employee retention rates is big. And then also the ability to reduce recovery times, which I know hospitals appreciate, not to be crass, but sometimes it's almost treated like restaurants. They want you to heal as quickly as possible, turn over the bed. And when you add all that up on an annual budget, that can save them
00:12:48
Speaker
hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah the hospital recovery rates one is interesting it does come up quite a lot I mean I think when one digs into the you know the Ulrich study which I think was like mid 80s you know once that's asked questions of why nothing more has been done since then in terms of creating some some solid data because we all go back to that same study that was
00:13:08
Speaker
done quite a while ago, but then you see what's happening in places like Singapore and Hong Kong where they're starting now to integrate serious levels of biophilia into their latest hospitals and that's for me a real sign that there's a commitment on that level and that there's a sense of tangible benefits, tangible health benefits
00:13:30
Speaker
around those recovery times and also the mental health piece. You mentioned the air purifying benefits and I think it's a hot topic right now for obvious reasons, indoor environmental or indoor air quality in particular.
Air-Purifying Plants in Living Walls
00:13:47
Speaker
Do you need to choose therefore specific air purifying species
00:13:52
Speaker
within the plant walls in order to do that? What are your restrictions in terms of the plant species to achieve maximum air purifying benefits? Sure, that's a great question. And it goes back to our initial assessment with the client or the architect and just really trying to identify the goals of the project. So if the client is really set on air purification, then we will incorporate species such as Chinese Evergreen,
00:14:19
Speaker
pea slowly, snake plants, ZZ plants, some species are known more for their indoor purification than others. And that's simply due to the kind of electromagnetic charge in the air with the dust particles in the plant leaves. So they're actually sucking the dust and harmful particulate matter out of the air, if not to their roots, but you can also see it on their leaves too. So what might look like water spots, if you look closely, it's actually just dust built up. And those leaves also is a part of
00:14:46
Speaker
Sorry, that leaf cleaning is also a part of our maintenance that we do. So the plants can, again, properly photosynth the size and we're not kind of filtering their life that they receive on those leaves. So what you referenced there is the idea of having to, and it's a very common theme, but the idea of needing to, on a case by case, project by project basis, establish
00:15:11
Speaker
priorities around planetary and people, health and wellbeing. And I think it's one of the toughest parts of doing what we do, which is that sometimes it's just not possible to do everything and to sort of hit the high notes, both in terms of environmental sustainability and human health and wellbeing.
Moss Walls vs. Living Walls: Maintenance & Installation
00:15:31
Speaker
And sometimes somewhere along the line, there's a call to be made. For example, okay, we really need to focus on indoor air quality in this office environment.
00:15:39
Speaker
versus, and there's some sacrifices to be made, right? It's a very realistic approach and it's interesting to hear it coming from your side as well because it's, yeah, there are often compromises along the way and it's a very real situation that we're all going through sort of pretty much every day in what we do. I wanted to look into the sort of alternative version then. So you also have
00:16:04
Speaker
moss walls, which in some ways I think create a similar visual effect, perhaps not quite the same and yet still very much part of this sort of, how can we bring a biophilic component in to pretty much cover an entire wall or as a panel? So how do you see those and how do you typically communicate around them versus having a real living wall? Because the moss is effectively preserved, right?
00:16:30
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I can't speak for other companies, but our preserved moss is harvested according to ecological practices. So the moss is preserved using a food grade safe glycerin and then natural dyes are pumped back into the different species to really give that vibrancy. But it very much, I mean, you can almost think of it as taxidermy, right? I mean, very much of the texture is still there and the color. And it does also still have that woody smell, especially initially when we install a larger scale moss wall.
00:16:59
Speaker
But moss walls are great. For the longest time, I always kept them in my back pocket. I just had such a love and admiration for living walls, and that's how I got my start. But I really did a ton of moss walls just due to last year, new construction was halted all over the world. So we really had to come up with a retrofit solution for the people that still were continuing to design their interior homes or spaces. Our preserved moss doesn't need any water or light to thrive, which is really great.
00:17:28
Speaker
I won't say it's zero maintenance because I have installed moss walls in lobbies before and just when you're handling, especially in New York City, when hundreds of people are going through that lobby, there is a bit of foot traffic and sometimes the moss walls can take a beating if people want to tug and pull on things. Even as adults, we're so curious beings, but I really do think, yeah, there's a time and place for every system. And if I was consulting with a client and they said, hey, we can't give you any water or light.
00:17:55
Speaker
And I would absolutely, and I do absolutely recommend our preserved moss because it's a great way of incorporating still a natural element into our built environment, which is ultimately the goal.
00:18:06
Speaker
Yeah, I do. I've used them in the past on gym spaces where, you know, there's a brief around biophilic design or biophilic interiors, but as is often the case with a gym or some kind of a wellness space or physical activity space, you know, it's a lower ground, but there's no natural light or it's a sort of an internal room where, again, there's just no access to daylight. And so there I pretty much have to flip into moss wall or moss panel territory. And yeah, I think
00:18:35
Speaker
Just reading between the lines, I think it's worth clarifying that there are products out there that are not of the same eco-friendly standard as yours. So there are versions that are not using natural dyes, et cetera. So I think that's what I picked up from doing my research on the particular ones that you stock and it kind of, yeah, highlighted that in my mind that, you know, there is some variety out there in terms of quality and eco-friendliness. So good on you for finding the right one, so to say. Yeah, absolutely. We definitely have believed that every technology that comes in,
00:19:05
Speaker
We do offer quite a range of technologies, but again, they've all been carefully considered and tried and tested before we bring them into a public or a client space.
Urban Strong's Green Roofs & Solar Panels
00:19:17
Speaker
So I know it's not your area of expertise, but I know you do also do the green roofs and the solar panels within the Urban Strong offerings. So just as a very sort of quick overview, what are the details of that service? How do they integrate into the, you're typically selling or going in on a project with multiple strands, so sort of multiple product offerings, or is it, are there synergies between them almost?
00:19:48
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So Urban Strong does specialize in design, installation, and ongoing maintenance for living laws and green roofs. But we also, there's another side to our business, which Alan will get more into, but the financing and the technology consulting side. So we have a lot of condo or co-op board members come to us. New York, I'm sorry, just incorporated a few local laws mandating that folks outfit their roofs with either solar or green roof.
00:20:16
Speaker
So a lot of people are calling us and saying, okay, I want a green roof. Oh no, I want solar. How do I decide between and what's the ROI associated? So we'll walk them through a very careful assessment. We'll ask some really high level questions and mainly around the structural integrity of the roof, just because there is a weight load associated with our different greener systems. You know, you're dealing with growing medium and soil and all of that. And also just again, their goals. If they want, you know, if they have enough capital upfront,
00:20:42
Speaker
and they wanted to invest, then we think solar is a better option because right now the payback period is great. It's not just net metering. I'm sorry, New York just offered up this community solar program that you can actually sell your energy back, energy that you collect far beyond what the building is using. And it's a nice little passive revenue stream for the building owners. So there's either at that slightly more strategic level,
00:21:11
Speaker
There's either something happening at a municipal or a city or state level whereby there's new legislation coming through and that in a sense is designed to push the industry forward and collectively
00:21:25
Speaker
within the real estate and interiors industry to encourage more integration of natural components. I think in a sense it's doing the same type of work, but coming at it from a different angle as the building certifications that are out there, things like LEED, things like WELL and FITWELL, that in their own way do a similar job, which is nudging us all forward, particularly in real estate, towards
00:21:52
Speaker
greener and healthier solutions. So how do your particular products fit in with LEED well, et cetera, if they do?
LEED & WELL Certifications for Products
00:22:04
Speaker
Absolutely. And LEED and WELL are great. They're both amazing standards and organizations and they have largely been responsible for, like you said, incentivizing building owners and architects to start incorporating natural elements into their designs. When we're discussing exterior living wall installations,
00:22:21
Speaker
For leads, several points are possible, and that's just due to reduced heat island effect, potential for water efficiency, meaning that you could harvest stormwater and work it into the irrigation design of the living wall through collection. And then other points, of course, are gained through optimizing energy efficiency performance. That's through thermal insulation of our systems. Innovation and operation is another category, and then occupant comfort. And that's all within the, under the lead umbrella.
00:22:49
Speaker
And then for well-building standard, living walls help satisfy three out of the seven core concepts of that standard. So it's air, mind, and comfort. Comfort is mostly associated with the plant's ability to mitigate noise pollution and reduce sound in an area.
00:23:06
Speaker
So lead slightly more towards, or fundamentally based around sort of planet and environment and well coming at it from a more human aspect. Just to close then, in terms of what you have lined up and where the business is going and where you see yourselves developing in future in terms of product and services,
Future Plans & Consumer-Friendly Systems
00:23:27
Speaker
like what's coming next? What's in the pipeline for Live for Urban Strong?
00:23:32
Speaker
I mean, if you asked me last year, the answer would be completely different. I applaud Urban Strong. We've always remained really flexible, and our willingness to pivot, I think, has really helped us through, especially COVID. Last year, we released an online store with a shippable plant DIY friendly systems I was explaining earlier, and that really got us through. It also connected us with consumer base. One thing I really don't love about the living well system is that
00:23:59
Speaker
there's a minimum square footage assigned to it just due to economies of scale, and therefore there's a minimum budget that you need to have, which can be upwards of $25,000. So it's really excluding to the small, medium-sized budgets. So we're really excited about that revenue stream that's tailored and focused more on the consumer. And then also, and this is more Alan's area of expertise or principle, but
00:24:22
Speaker
Our ability to just really consult and help building owners or property developers and condo and co-op board members that have a budget and don't really have access to education sources and don't know really how to best spend their money and you know how it fits in with our goals. So we're really excited about not just the roofing but the living wall aspect as well.
00:24:43
Speaker
Very cool. Well, we're going to line up a separate conversation with Alan to go into some of those other juicy subjects. So thanks for your time. If people want to reach out and contact you, obviously there's a website in terms of social media or other channels. What are you mostly focused on? Yeah, so our website is great. I think on every page we have a call to action, contact us or let's chat button. We like to consider ourselves really accessible. And we just love having these conversations. And then also our Instagram handle is Urban Strong NYC. We've
00:25:13
Speaker
post not only our projects, but our partners' projects, and then just really notable products in the industry we like to put a spotlight on and just keep up to date with what the new technologies are and what you can do with these living long greenery systems. And then, of course, my personal email also should be on the website, but maybe we can post that too in case anyone has any questions or follow up comments on this. Well, dude, awesome. Billy, thanks so much for your time. Yeah, I appreciate it, Matt. Take care. Happy holidays till next time.