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The INK - Diversity, Equity, Inclusion
35 Plays3 days ago
In this episode I’m here in Barcelona, Spain talking to Lotus Smits, Founder of The INK DEI Agency focused on promoting Diversity, Equity and Inclusion within organizations.
Lotus has given a TED talk on Inclusive Leadership and has previously worked with the likes of Booking.com, Globo and Campari Group.
- She is also Co-Founder of Egala an organization that connects migrants to skills and jobs via mentoring, workshops and placement programs.
So she is clearly someone with a strong social conscience, determined to be a force for good in the world of business.
This podcast is mostly dedicated to sustainability and wellbeing, People and Planet, so I want to give space to the concept of Social Equity as it’s becoming an increasingly prominent part of how modern businesses do good.
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Transcript
Introduction to Wellbeing and Sustainability in Built Environment
00:00:01
mattmorley
Welcome to episode 83 of the Green Healthy Places podcast, in which we discuss the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in the built environment.
Interview with Lotus Smiths in Barcelona
00:00:11
mattmorley
I'm your host, Matt Morley, and in this episode, I'm here in my hometown of Barcelona in Spain, talking to Lotus Smiths, founder of the Inc.
Lotus Smiths: Background and DEI Initiatives
00:00:20
mattmorley
DEI agency that's focused on promoting diversity Equity and Inclusion, DEI, within organizations. Lotus has given a TED Talk on inclusive leadership and has previously worked with the likes of Booking .com, Global and Compari Group.
Exploring Social Equity, Wellbeing, and Sustainability
00:00:33
mattmorley
She's also co-founder of Egla, an organization that connects migrants to skills and jobs via mentoring, workshops and placement programs. She's clearly someone with a strong social conscience, determined to be a force for good in the world of business.
00:00:49
mattmorley
Now, my podcast is mostly dedicated to environmental sustainability and well-being, so people and planet. but want to give space to the concept of social equity as it's becoming increasingly prominent part of how modern businesses do good, whether you consider that to be about well-being or a wider interpretation of sustainability. But hopefully we can get
Social Impact within ESG Model - What Excites Lotus?
00:01:10
mattmorley
into that today. So, Lotus, welcome to the show.
00:01:13
Lotus _she_her_
Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here. And what a pleasure to actually open up the space to talk more about social impact as well as part of the ESG model. So really, really pleased to be here. Thank you for the invitation.
Understanding the Importance of DEI in Organizations
00:01:28
mattmorley
Let's do it. So we've already mentioned DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion. And then there's ESG, so environmental, social and governance. The two acronyms, most people now working in this industry or with any connection to this world will have at least heard of them. But how do you think of those terms specifically around diversity, equity and inclusion? Could you break them down for us to add ah ah an extra layer of detail? So we're very clear about exactly what we were referring to.
00:01:57
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah. I love the fact that you're asking me to clear them down into the three different buckets, because what I very often notice in, in trainings or workshops that I deliver is that a lot of people take them as one while they are actually three very different things and different concepts that also require of course different actions. So let me break them down all of you. First of all, the diversity really refers to the representation of the different identities. We can think about race, gender, age, sexual orientation, but also if you're a parent, yes or no,
00:02:34
Lotus _she_her_
if you're introvert or extrovert and what I always say is what is most important is that it's the characteristics that we use ourselves to define ourselves in in life and in the workplace and it's all of those characteristics that make us as humans really unique and those of course also bring those diverse perspectives and those diverse backgrounds to the organizations to actually drive the innovation the productivity and the efficiency and then equity is more about the systemic part so how do we look at the ways we operate and the systems the processes the policies that we have in place and are there actually certain barriers in those policies for people
00:03:19
Lotus _she_her_
with diverse characteristics. So it's really the systemic aspect also of society and how our society is built and therefore sometimes how our systems and processes are built in organizations as well. And then inclusion is more the behavioral aspect. So how do we all show up in a way where in the environment we actually make everyone feel valued, where we make them feel respected and make them feel empowered to fully contribute based on their unique characteristics so it's about the behaviors that we bring to make sure that everyone has that sense of belonging and that sense of inclusion and together the three of them are very powerful but separately they actually don't work really well together so
00:04:05
Lotus _she_her_
When you read research and people say diversity, equity and inclusion is good for business, I always say, yes, it is. If all of them are in a balanced way focused on, because if you hire purely diverse talent, but there is no inclusion or equity, there is no business case. Or if you have a lot of inclusion without any diversity, there is no business case either for organizations. So it's very important to understand that the three of them together is where we have the impact.
00:04:37
mattmorley
And how would you see the relationship then between DEI and that perhaps slightly wider box of the social in environmental social and governance or ESG?
Integrating DEI into ESG and Its Impact
00:04:49
mattmorley
From your perspective, what's the relationship between those two concepts?
00:04:50
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah.
00:04:54
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah, so personally I think DEI fits really well into the social part of the ESG by addressing how companies actually interact with and also impact their employees, but not only their employees, it's also about the communities and the broader society. Every organization has an ecosystem around them as well that they have an impact on. And it's about being very mindful of what is that impact that we have on that ecosystem and on our employees as an organization. So to give you a couple of examples related to how
00:05:30
Lotus _she_her_
DEI connects to the social aspect of yeah ESG. For example, let's look at creating equal opportunities for growth. So how do we actually make sure as organizations that once diverse talent comes in, that there are actually specific career development programs, that we look at the promotions, but also the leadership opportunities with a lens that everyone can thrive, learn and grow.
00:05:55
Lotus _she_her_
in the organization at the same speed um um and with equal opport opportunity. Also, if you look at equity in pay or in policies, how do we make sure that regardless of our characteristics, we get paid for like for like work? And unfortunately, that is still not the case today. If we just take the gender lens, for example, where women unfortunately still get paid 80 cents of every one euro that a man, for example, earns for the same work. And this also counts for policy. So how do we make sure that in the policies we actually know what are the needs of our different people and how do we meet our people where they are when it comes to health care, when it comes to flexible working arrangements?
00:06:41
Lotus _she_her_
when it comes to becoming a caregiver or a parent? And how, as an organization, can we really take that into account? And then finally, as I already said, it's not just about the employees when it comes to the social impact that we have, but it's also about what is that ecosystem that we're in. And here we can look at, for example, who are the suppliers that we, as an organization, work with? So are we actually going to go to a person just around the corner?
00:07:09
Lotus _she_her_
Or are we consciously doing audits and checks? Who the suppliers are that we want to work with? For example, women-owned businesses or LGBTQ plus-owned businesses. And even beyond that, where do we invest our money? Are we investing our money in projects that are funding girls, you know, to start jobs in tech. So there are so many aspects, as you can see, both from an employee, a community and a society point of view, where companies really, via DEI, are contributing to the ESGs.
00:07:44
mattmorley
So it's quite a broad scope there.
Beginning the DEI Journey: Leadership's Role
00:07:46
mattmorley
What would you, if I would have pushed you to try and define the the fundamental principles with that every DEI plan needs to include?
00:07:47
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah.
00:07:55
mattmorley
So ah ah where would a business start when first thinking about and implementing a DEI plan? How can you help them to see it as something that's achievable and that it's about starting perhaps not being perfect from day one, but at least getting on the right track?
00:08:10
mattmorley
Where do you begin?
00:08:10
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah. I would say I would personally always begin with talking to leadership. And this is also what I, what I did in my, uh, applications when I was applying for different rules, but also what I now do while running my own agency is talking to the leaders to really understand what is their vision. Why do they want to drive this topic? Because if I notice.
00:08:34
Lotus _she_her_
that a lot of the leaders don't really understand the business case neither. do they find it the right thing to do, then it's going to become very hard to actually drive DEI, company-wide, top-down, but also, of course, bottom-up. So I always start with clear leadership commitments and really letting leaders understand what is their role in not only saying that they care, but also doing the right things, measuring the impact, and also prioritizing the topic on their agenda. And this is actually called
00:09:06
Lotus _she_her_
the leadership shadow, it's what do you say, what do you do, what do you measure, what do you prioritize and how as a leader and as a leadership group can you also really build a strong leadership shadow instead of a weak one where people know what do you stand for and how are you committed to actually rolling that out. So leadership commitment is one and then I think it starts with a clear gap analysis on hey where is this organization when it comes to diversity equity and inclusion both from a culture point of view so what are the rituals what are the ways that we're you know celebrating our culture but also looking at the systems the processes and the policies and looking at hey what is currently working for some people and who are we maybe overlooking in those systems policies and processes as well. And from there, you can start to close the gaps with a clear strategy and a clear roadmap. So that's where I would start.
00:10:07
mattmorley
And with your own consultancy process, then you mentioned a gap analysis that will give you an initial idea of what perhaps might be, if not going wrong, where a company perhaps is weak or needs to do a bit of extra work.
00:10:21
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah.
Consultancy Process: Leadership Training and HR Collaboration
00:10:22
mattmorley
But how do you then, what tools would you use to then Again, implementing and creating change within an organization when you're coming in as an external consultant, how does that in the day to day, how do you start to implement new ideas and help them to take shape within a company?
00:10:32
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah.
00:10:41
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah. So, um, so first of all, as I said, we, we start with the leadership team getting to know them, but also training them. So I've designed a six week program, for example, for several, several organizations.
00:10:55
Lotus _she_her_
where together with the C-level, we not only go through the fundamental basics of what is DEI about, but also then to understand their role. And while we're going through those six weeks, we shape the strategy together, including adding them as ambassadors or sponsors to different parts of the strategy. So I think that is one very important aspect that I always try to drive when I come into organizations.
00:11:23
Lotus _she_her_
How can every leadership member be a sponsor of a part of the strategy and be my soundboarding partner in also rolling out what we need when it comes to tools and resources to actually make the progress that we need to make. And then second, I think even though diversity, equity and inclusion is definitely not an HR topic, that's what I always say,
00:11:45
Lotus _she_her_
And it's the responsibility of every single one of us to drive this in the organization. But of course, the systems, the processes and the policies they lay lie with with HR. So what is very important is that it's.
00:12:00
Lotus _she_her_
part of every center of excellence their scope when we're rolling out a DEI roadmap. And what I mean by that is that it's not just the DEI team that is being measured and reviewed on, hey, how fast is the progress going on DEI? No, it also should be the talent acquisition team, so the people that are doing the recruiting.
00:12:22
Lotus _she_her_
It should also be the talent and learning and development team. So the people that are training are people in the organization and that each and every single one of us has very clear metrics and KPIs as part of their roadmap to then be measured on if the successes were achieved. And how I then see the role as the AI is really sitting with those different centers of of ah expertise.
00:12:48
Lotus _she_her_
providing the DEI lens, sharing with them what needs to be changed in their systems and processes, and then together with them rebuilding them. But it shouldn't be just DEI. It should be a collaboration where DEI really comes in as a consultant to help those teams along the way. I hope that that's clear and makes sense.
00:13:09
mattmorley
It is very
Risks of Ignoring DEI: Talent and Customer Gaps
00:13:10
mattmorley
clear. And then if we look at it from a slightly different angle, then what could some of the risks be for a company that hasn't woken up to DEI?
00:13:22
mattmorley
What would it be certain generations that they lose face with or that they're less appealing as a company? Or is there what what the typical hazards that are out there that you're trying to help a company to avoid?
00:13:30
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah. Mm hmm.
00:13:37
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah, no, very good question. and I definitely think that we're already, we're already seeing certain companies that are missing out on, on DEI and also certain backclashes that actually exist because of that, because certain products were being built without the DEI lens taken into account and therefore a product not meeting the needs of their actual customers or their audience.
00:14:02
Lotus _she_her_
So I think, first of all, if you don't focus on diversity, equity and inclusion and you have people from minoritized group groups in your organization, then the chances are very high that they feel undervalued, not seen. and that actually your turnover rates will start to increase. So that is one of the things that I see happening in companies that don't specifically focus on that inclusive culture where people have a sense of belonging. And then on top of that, what I already touched in the beginning how do you as an organization meet the needs of your customers? And nowadays organizations are, most of them are very global. They have customers from different countries or maybe even all over the world.
00:14:46
Lotus _she_her_
and we have seen cases where especially technical products tend to fail to actually understand the needs of their customers and therefore leaving them out by the default. There is a very good book which is called Invisible Women and it actually shows the data related to healthcare care also safety in cars when it comes to airbags where women tend to die, unfortunately, more often in traffic because the airbags are not always tested on women, but always on the men postures, for example. So if you think about it and you and your company come in the news, because by default, you left people out in your research or in your focus group, is very problematic. And then I think finally, we're having to do with also new generations that are joining the workforce.
00:15:38
Lotus _she_her_
like Gen Z and they have very different expectations of organizations. They don't just look at, hey, what are the products that you're producing and can I get a good salary and work with my peers? No, they actually look at what are you doing as a company to hold yourself accountable, to do the right thing on DEI sustainability,
00:15:59
Lotus _she_her_
social impact, and companies that are not focused on those elements are really going to miss out on the talent that is so much more critical at what you're doing beyond your business model and making money, but really about, you know, impacting and being a positive ripple for for the environment and society.
00:16:19
mattmorley
And are there any obvious patterns how your various years of experience in the
DEI Challenges Across Industries and Regions
00:16:26
mattmorley
industry? Do you see any patterns in terms of weak points for DEI in certain types of organizations, perhaps in multinationals or in FMCG companies or in a specific sector or specific countries where there's highlighted problems that are quite typical of certain sectors or areas, geographical areas of Europe, for example, where you work?
00:16:36
Lotus _she_her_
Mm hmm.
00:16:50
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah, so one of them I already of course shared and I think world is becoming more tech savvy. Everything nowadays is digital and therefore it's very crucial that in tech companies we actually have a strong representation of society. But unfortunately that is not the case. And we see in history why less and less women, for example, started to engage in technology. And one of the reasons, believe it or not, is For example, how game boys and computers were marketed towards boys and therefore women losing interest joining technology and this type of pro culture that was being created in images and in documentaries related to technology.
00:17:36
Lotus _she_her_
therefore we have a lot of technology products that are again not fitting the needs of certain customers. So I think the tech industry is one where we know there are challenges and therefore a lot of tech companies are also investing in primary school education, high school education for more women to become excited about tech. So the problem is known and I know tech companies are trying to solve it. what I also see is that small and mid-sized enterprises very often lack the resources or the expertise
00:18:10
Lotus _she_her_
to actually implement structured DEI programs which is such a waste because what I always say is the sooner you start with applying a DEI lens from the moment you're building your business, the easier it becomes to really make it part of the day to day. And once you're very big, and you need to recorrect that so much more costly than investing a little bit at the beginning in setting up your systems and processes in the right way. So that is the second one. And then the third one, and you already shared it yourself is the geographical challenges that of course play a role in
00:18:50
Lotus _she_her_
our current world. In some parts ah of Europe, but also in some parts of Africa, there is of course laws in place that are by default leaving people from the LGBTQ plus community out of society consequences like going to prison, is very horrible. So if then as a company you operate in those those countries, how do you actually navigate that? How do you navigate those laws? And then there are other countries like in certain parts of Europe where actually legislation is very strong, like in the Netherlands in Spain, and where actually the government is putting a certain pressure on organizations to do better with the equity plans.
00:19:33
Lotus _she_her_
with the 2% disability law where you need to hire people with a disability because otherwise you are, you're getting fines. So I think to summarize the tech industry, one, small and medium enterprises, two, and then the geographical differences in countries is definitely number three that makes certain organizations more prone or less prone to driving DEI.
00:20:00
mattmorley
Let me pick up on that last point then about the the the geographical
Global Adaptation of DEI Honoring Cultural Differences
00:20:03
mattmorley
differences.
00:20:04
mattmorley
I'm working on a project at the moment for Carnegie Mellon University in in Qatar.
00:20:04
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah.
00:20:10
Lotus _she_her_
Oh, wow, exciting.
00:20:10
mattmorley
We are designing, they've asked us to design two different, actually a range of spaces for the students, largely around physical and mental health and wellbeing. And the, let's say the sort of social equity pieces is not addressed directly but is definitely there. So for example, we're designing both a male and a female gym because in that culture it is not appropriate for them to mix. We've also been asked to create a safe space for female students to
00:20:43
mattmorley
Recline to lie down, have a nap, talk amongst themselves, remove their veil, fix their makeup in a place, adapted specifically for that. And I found it fascinating because we're really having to adapt our own ideas about how we design spaces according to cultural specifics.
00:21:05
mattmorley
So how universal do you see DEI to be?
00:21:07
Lotus _she_her_
Mm
00:21:11
mattmorley
Does it need to have necessity?
00:21:11
Lotus _she_her_
-hmm.
00:21:14
mattmorley
Does it have to adapt in some circumstances to local culture? Can I imagine doing something around a DEI plan in the Middle East in a country like Qatar would be quite different to doing it in Spain or the Netherlands, for example.
00:21:27
Lotus _she_her_
Mm hmm.
00:21:28
mattmorley
So how much can it flex and how much does it need to sort of try and break down barriers from your perspective?
00:21:33
Lotus _she_her_
Mm hmm. Yeah, super, super good question. And what an interesting project in Qatar. I would love to hear more about that later. But DEI is not a one size fits all. And that's what I've always said, whatever organizations I join. Of course, the fundamentals, if you think about DEI, the fundamentals of it are about respect, treating one another in a way where we're curious, where we're listening. So it's the human basics of
00:22:05
Lotus _she_her_
of behavior that in a business organization we would expect of one another, right? So I think as a foundation or as a basic, I think you can drive the AI everywhere around the globe, regardless of the laws and legislation coming from a place of respect.
00:22:22
Lotus _she_her_
And regardless of our differences, let's try to be here and work in an efficient and productive way together. So that's how I see where DI can be driven everywhere in the same way.
00:22:35
Lotus _she_her_
But then, of course, from that global strategy, you need to really understand the local legislation and the cultural sensitivity of what are the topics that we can actually talk about depending on on country.
00:22:48
Lotus _she_her_
Because the first thing ah for me is always how do we make sure that all of our people are safe? And we never want to make sure that we risk anyone's safety by talking about a topic where people can go to jail if they're joining a webinar on LGBTQ plus inclusion, right?
00:23:04
Lotus _she_her_
So safety is first.
00:23:04
mattmorley
She.
00:23:06
Lotus _she_her_
And when it comes to that cultural sensitivity, some of the examples I can think of from the past is gender is a topic that we can drive in all of the countries globally.
00:23:17
Lotus _she_her_
Also, parenting is a topic that we can drive in all of the countries globally. Personality traits, characteristics, right? Those are topics that you can talk about everywhere. And then you just need to understand, especially in line with legislation, what are the topics that maybe not there yet, but year by year were able to stretch.
00:23:39
Lotus _she_her_
based on the gray areas there are also in the law and what you say as a company that you stand for. So globally you can have a certain stance and then locally you're adapting your voice to make sure that no one is at risk.
00:23:54
mattmorley
That makes sense.
Communicating DEI Efforts and the Role of Certification
00:23:55
mattmorley
If I take a step back, I think I mentioned to you offline, but in in my world of real estate development and interiors, I've recently seen a new certification system come along called the Social Equity Assessment Method or SEAM. And in fact, I'm interviewing one of the co-founders for the next episode. I see it as a way for developers and occupiers to win essentially a third party recognition for their efforts around social equity.
00:24:20
mattmorley
That follows on from the first wave of green building standards 20 years ago that was focused on reducing environmental impact and then a second wave over the last 10 years around healthy building standards that were focused on promoting well-being for building occupants and now as I see it it's perhaps the turn of social equity.
00:24:39
mattmorley
So in the case of SEAM, they're focused on real estate development, transparency, good governance, ethical supply chains that you mentioned, but also equity and inclusion in the workplace, for example.
00:24:50
Lotus _she_her_
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:51
mattmorley
Real estate likes a good certification. It's all about attracting ESG-oriented investors, and if we can certify something, we'll definitely certify it if the budget's available.
00:24:56
Lotus _she_her_
Okay.
00:25:00
mattmorley
How do you see communicating DEI wins and a DEI plan a strategy to the outside world? Is it about certification, perhaps in some industries more appropriate than in others.
00:25:15
mattmorley
But how else can a company start talking about what it's doing and its successes? Should it start talking as soon as it begins the process? Or does it wait until it's rolled things out and implemented and had some wins?
00:25:28
mattmorley
How do you advise on that? Because I can imagine it could be quite sensitive.
00:25:31
mattmorley
If you're talking about it too early, perhaps you expose yourself to criticism outside from from investors or stakeholders.
00:25:40
Lotus _she_her_
I think for me it all the way comes down to honesty. And I think regardless of where an organization is on their DEI journey, that's how I always call it. And you can be at the very beginning.
00:25:52
Lotus _she_her_
You can be somewhere midway or you can be more in the forefront. I think it's about honesty and how, as an organization, do you show that you actually care about the topic, but you're also very honest and reflective of all of the steps that still need to be taken to actually get to where you want to be. And for me, communication and being transparent and where you are today via, for example, a yearly report, via surveys and then making sure that you have the you know, the employee testimonials. I think for me that is an amazing starting point because you're showing also the accountability that you're expecting from the world around you to hold you accountable for where you're going. If you're keeping all of your communication internally because you think you're not ready, you're missing that layer of accountability that you can create from
00:26:43
Lotus _she_her_
have the ecosystem that you're in. So I would always advise, regardless of where a company is, to start communicating about, hey, this is where we are today. We know that we're not perfect. But these are all of the initiatives that we're having in the roadmap for the upcoming years. And this is how we're tracking and how we're holding ourselves accountable. And maybe even what you see some of the some organizations do is a yearly call where also customers and stakeholders and investors can actually come together to then talk about the findings in the report and to have an honest and open conversation on what the company could do more. So I think reporting yourself proactively as an organization is one. When it comes to certification, I'm also a big believer of certification, but of course it really depends on what are the requirements to be certified because what we've been seeing in the past is unfortunately
00:27:40
Lotus _she_her_
Some of the certification is a great greenwashing or pinkwashing way of being part of something. But actually, what does it really mean when it comes to output investments and resource allocation?
00:27:52
Lotus _she_her_
and they tend to be a bit shallow. So I'm curious to hear more about the certification, of course, that you were talking about, because I haven't seen something like that yet. But I think when it comes to buildings and making them accessible for people with disabilities, for people with certain neurodiversities and ways of working, having prayer rooms, having a nursery in the office. It can be amazing as a checklist also for companies to feel more committed to know, hey, these all of the things that I can do.
00:28:26
Lotus _she_her_
to go from a 6 to a 10 or from a 6 to a 9, right? So I think it can help as a guidance of understanding where am I today and where can we go to be part of the top tier of companies with an inclusive office environment, for example. So yeah, I believe both in certification, but also in proactive sharing and communicating about your progress.
Connecting with Lotus Smiths on LinkedIn
00:28:49
mattmorley
Super. Thank you so much. So if people are interested in knowing more about your agency or contacting you, your website and which social media you're most prominent or most active on.
00:29:02
Lotus _she_her_
LinkedIn, actually. So I don't have any Instagram related to my agency. So if anyone has any questions, then feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. And I always try to be a bit on top of my messages. That's sometimes a bit hard. But bear with me, have a bit of patience. And then I always try to come back personally to everyone who's writing to me.
00:29:21
mattmorley
Cool. We'll add the LinkedIn link in the show notes. Lotus, thank you so much for your time.
00:29:26
Lotus _she_her_
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed the conversation and thank you for putting a spotlight on such an important topic.
00:29:33
mattmorley
A pleasure.