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GHP 093: Lighting for wellbeing with Farah Naser of Tactile Lighting
2 Plays1 minute ago
In this episode we explore a topic that is often underestimated, even in my own circles, and yet fundamental to how we feel, think and perform in an indoor environment > lighting.
I'm talking to Farah Naser of Tactile Architectural Lighting Consultancy in Rotterdam, The Netherlands whose work focuses specifically on how to use light not just as a visual tool but as a biological and emotional driver of wellbeing.
- Tactile Lighting website
- Tactile Lighting instagram
- Green Healthy Places
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Lighting and Well-Being
00:00:05
Green Healthy Places
Welcome back to the Green Healthy Places podcast where we explore how we're creating buildings, spaces and places that support human health and wellbeing. I'm your host, Matt Morley, and today we're exploring a topic that is perhaps often underestimated, even in my own circles, and yet fundamental to how we feel, think,
00:00:28
Green Healthy Places
and perform in an indoor environment, and that is lighting.
00:00:28
Farah
Thank you.
Lighting's Role in Biological and Emotional Health
00:00:32
Green Healthy Places
So I'm happy to be joined by Farah Nasser from Tactile Lighting in Rotterdam, whose work focuses specifically on how to use light not just as a visual tool, but as a biological and emotional driver of well-being. So we'll be discussing how thoughtful lighting design can support circadian health. That's the sort of natural cycle that we all follow on a 24-hour period.
00:00:57
Green Healthy Places
as well as our mood, productivity and overall, let's say, human performance. But also what designers, real estate developers and building operators should be paying closer attention to. So, Aparra, welcome to the show.
00:01:11
Farah
Thank you, Matt. I'm very happy to be here and talk about my passion.
Impact of Lighting on Biology and Behavior
00:01:16
Green Healthy Places
Cool. Well, let's start with that because beginning with the basics, when you talk about well-being and lighting, What does that mean in practice and how would it distinguish itself from, say, traditional architectural lighting design?
00:01:31
Green Healthy Places
We're both in the same game of of promoting wellness in different ways. How do you consider or think about wellness and in the specific territory of light?
00:01:44
Farah
Yeah, so I think we used to think about lighting as only a visual influence on us, like what we see and we perceive and how it can change our mood in this space. But now with the new science of circadian rhythm, like we started to see how lighting not just only is a visual influence on us, but also it's a biological influence and also hormonal influence and behavioral influence.
00:02:11
Farah
So mostly when you do traditional lighting design, you don't take these aspects into consideration. So when you design for well-being, it's a more of a holistic lighting design approach that you you try to balance both visual and physiological approaches to the design.
00:02:31
Green Healthy Places
The circadian piece is is clearly crucial, right? The idea that we have this a repeating 24-hour cycle that connects us to to the world around us, to nature, and and and that light can have a positive or negative effect on that. So you mentioned the idea that there's more science and data and Knowledge behind that in research.
00:02:55
Farah
Yeah,
00:02:56
Green Healthy Places
yeah So how how do you how are you using that type of research and leveraging it in your design strategies when it comes to light?
00:03:05
Farah
yeah it's a very exciting research actually because every day we're learning something new and they're doing different experiments.
Challenges with Blue Wavelengths and Circadian Rhythms
00:03:13
Farah
So the latest research says that our circadian rhythm is mainly influenced by wavelengths between 360 and 380 nanometers. which are in the blue light range.
00:03:27
Farah
So as lighting designers at nighttime, we try as much as possible to eliminate these kinds of wavelengths, the blue light, but not just by using tunable lighting fixtures and systems, because it's very important as well to understand what kind of lighting system you're using, because when you have a warmer color temperature, it doesn't,
00:03:53
Farah
it automatically means that it doesn't have those wavelengths, the blue wavelengths, because sometimes it can it can trick the eye and tell you, yes, it's warm color, but it isn't.
00:04:03
Green Healthy Places
you
00:04:04
Farah
It does have these wavelengths that stimulate our circadian rhythm and do not allow us to sleep. So this is one of the aspects we take into consideration. And also understanding the vertical illuminance, because mostly lighting designers, they focus on horizontal illuminance. but also vertical illuminance is a big aspect of understanding how to design for circadian rhythm and our biology.
00:04:33
Green Healthy Places
Just explain the difference between horizontal and vertical in that sense for someone who's not familiar with the concepts.
00:04:40
Farah
Yes, horizontal illuminance is the light that falls on a plane horizontally, like on a desk, on a kitchen counter,
00:04:51
Farah
and The vertical illuminance is the the light you receive from vertically, vertically through the eye directly, or from a window, or from an opening in front of you, or from down light.
00:05:05
Farah
So understanding the vertical illuminance and also like eliminating the vertical illuminance during nighttime is very important, and one of the tools we use in order to help and support the circadian rhythm.
Design Strategies for Daytime and Nighttime Lighting
00:05:21
Green Healthy Places
And so first principles, we're looking to get more blue white light in the first half of the day, specifically around the time of of waking up. I want to be energized and active, productive. And then as the sun gets close to and starts to set, we're looking for more orange, darker, amber hued light and avoiding the blue white light. So that's why, and for example, the biohacking community, you see a lot of people wearing these yellow lens glasses after dark, right? It's the same concept.
00:05:51
Farah
Yeah, absolutely. And it's very important to understand the spectra that you're getting and it and influenced by of the itself, the spectral power distribution that shows you how much blue light you have in this luminary when you put it, turn it and tune it into our warm light.
00:06:13
Green Healthy Places
And so would a would a computer screen or a TV count as blue-white light if we're looking at a screen or watching a program series after dark at night?
00:06:24
Farah
Yes, absolutely.
00:06:25
Green Healthy Places
So then...
00:06:26
Farah
That's why there are many programs on TVs now. You can change it and tune it to eliminate the blue light during nighttime.
00:06:34
Green Healthy Places
Yeah, so just as the this of the iPhone will give you a the option to change the tones and downshift, downgrade the intensity of the light on your screen, I have the same happening on my my computers after dark. Perhaps the TV one is a bit more complicated for people who like watching TV.
00:06:54
Green Healthy Places
series late at night. But again, i guess it's all just about managing risk and then trying to monitor the impact of that on our sleep, right? And how how well we sleep after dark.
00:07:06
Green Healthy Places
And so then you've got some artificial light and natural daylight. And so when we think about the difference between the two, between daytime and evening relaxation,
00:07:19
Green Healthy Places
how do you How do you work with both of those? Presumably there are some instances where you you there's no natural light in a space and or you have to just work entirely with artificial light. So with the artificial lighting, are you able to get close to recreating the exact type of lights that you would otherwise find outside?
00:07:42
Farah
I think it's more about understanding the contrast you want to create between daytime night, the daytime vision of the space and nighttime vision.
00:07:53
Farah
So when you're designing light, you need to design for contrast more. If you want to help your circadian rhythm, if you are in a place that has a lot of daylight during the daytime, you need more contrast during nighttime.
00:08:09
Farah
So your your your circadian clock understands that, yes, now it's time to sleep. So I think it's more about understanding the context that you're designing in so you're able to give the right solutions.
00:08:25
Green Healthy Places
And some specific spaces that I'm often involved in with work, I think pose a real challenge for us. Often there is no lighting consultant involved on the type of projects we're designing on a smaller scale.
00:08:40
Green Healthy Places
and They're typically involved in the bigger scale, sort mixed use real estate developments. But when it's a 1500 square meter wellness club, for example, we just don't we don't have a lighting consultant on the team. And and I'm often faced with this problem of how to manage the light in an indoor space when someone is perhaps exercising at 10 o'clock at night before going to work.
00:09:03
Green Healthy Places
And I want them to be, sorry, before going to bed, after work, I want them to be energized during their exercise routine or just the same if if someone is studying at university and they want to do some work after dark because that's when they're most active mentally, I need to support that but at the same time try not to disrupt their circadian rhythm. So what suggestions or tips could you could you offer for those particular spaces where you have this slight tension between
Lighting Management in Various Environments
00:09:36
Green Healthy Places
needing to enhance productivity but also not completely disrupt circadian rhythms?
00:09:43
Farah
I think multiple solutions can give an answer to your question because it's quite complex. complex And one of them is controlling the blue light inside the luminaire that is providing illuminance, trying to eliminate it during nighttime, even if it's high brightness of light.
00:10:05
Farah
But by eliminating the blue light, you can support your circadian rhythm. And also by type of luminaire that you're using, you could use less of downlights and use more of floor lamps or different solutions that do not directly go through your eyes directly.
00:10:26
Farah
and If you're studying, you could use more desk lamps. You can find different solutions, but for such a complex problem.
00:10:36
Green Healthy Places
So then it's quite sector specific in a way, I guess. If it's residential, perhaps you have a certain mood or atmosphere that you're trying to create, perhaps closer to hospitality nowadays. But then in a workplace environment where it seems to be mostly about productivity and and supporting business,
00:10:55
Green Healthy Places
the work that needs to happen within that space, i guess you have to almost sort of change gears according to the type of environment that you're going into, right? So what are the the key differences between the different sectors that you're working in?
00:11:09
Farah
Yeah, definitely.
Sector-specific Lighting Design
00:11:10
Farah
You're right. Because like, for example, for an office building, you want to promote productivity and clarity. So uniformity level of light is very important.
00:11:21
Farah
Glare is very important. For a residential apartment, you need to understand how people behave, their own rhythms, and how do they want to promote these rhythms and accordingly design to that.
00:11:34
Farah
And hospitality is also you need to understand the mood you want to create. So context is always key to understanding what type of lighting design you want to provide.
00:11:45
Green Healthy Places
So just to bring that that point to life, imagine you're working on a six story office building in Milan, something that I've been involved in recently.
00:11:57
Green Healthy Places
And there is direct sunlight coming in from one side of the building every afternoon. If you then have a certain type of material on the desk, and no suitable shading in place, that problem of glare that you mentioned can then repeat itself on each of the six floors every afternoon at certain times of the season, right?
00:12:07
Farah
Mm-hmm.
00:12:18
Green Healthy Places
That's the kind of thing that you're you're worried about because it's not just one person at home with some glare on his or her desk in the home office, but something that can repeat hundreds of times and again and again every day in in a large format, right?
00:12:32
Green Healthy Places
So that's really where you are able to deliver most value, I guess, right? Preventing issues, prevent seeing what could happen and finding solutions early on to stop it happening
00:12:38
Farah
Definitely. Yeah.
00:12:46
Farah
Definitely. That's where daylight calculation comes in for lighting designers, where they can support the architects. we can They can create different scenarios at different times of the year and measure these ratios, the glare ratio, the uniformity ratio, the sunlight. how much is the intake of daylight during any type of time or weather or yeah that's why it's very important to include lighting designer from the start especially for these kind of spaces that you want to design a place that supports people who are working in it
00:13:24
Green Healthy Places
And how do those sort of daylight studies, how do you deliver those? Is that specific it software? what are your What are the inputs and how do you make the calculations something like that?
00:13:35
Farah
Yeah, there are many different software. There are simple software like Dialux, and there are more complex software that gives you a more exact and more comprehensive results like Radiance.
00:13:48
Farah
So you can choose what suits the project or the accuracy that you need and work with that. It can give you like the daylight factor, which is the difference between the illuminance level outside and inside. And according to that, you will understand if this space needs electrical lighting during the day or not.
00:14:07
Farah
So you can get many metrics through these kind of daylight calculations that can help and support the design.
00:14:16
Green Healthy Places
Great. And if you were trying to create somewhere then that was not somewhere that is all about productivity like an office, if you wanted to go in the other way, what type of things would you be able to use to have that kind of impact on occupants mood or what techniques could you use?
00:14:42
Farah
Yeah, so first thing is the illuminance level and color temperature. Of course, we need warmer tones, but my favorite is the designing shadows because we not only design light, we also design darkness and the shadows that is between them. So harsh shadows can give you a different impression than soft transition and soft shadows.
00:15:06
Farah
So yes, I find designing with shadows can make the place very interesting in terms of mood.
00:15:13
Green Healthy Places
I never thought of it that way, but you're yeah you're designing with the spaces in between the lights as well.
00:15:19
Farah
Thanks, Sam.
Common Mistakes in Lighting Design
00:15:22
Green Healthy Places
And what are some of the common mistakes that that you see in the industry around lighting design? what are What are the things that when you're out in workplaces or perhaps a spa or a hotel or a restaurant, what type of issues are you most alert to where you think,
00:15:41
Green Healthy Places
What's being done there is not helping, let's say, the the overall well-being of of the occupants. what One of the typical things that you would really pick up and notice when you're out in the world of of buildings and interiors.
00:15:56
Farah
The most typical mistake that see and people don't pay much attention to is the light levels. It's very simple, but not many people are paying attention to it because light levels at night, normally they're very high. They're too high because also latest research says before three hours of sleep, you need very minimal light levels.
00:16:19
Farah
So I find this a big problem in everywhere, to be honest. And of course, like the color temperature using white and warm colors, like the mixing between them. But for me, I think the biggest problem is the light levels.
00:16:35
Green Healthy Places
And so there's almost like a, you take a typical bedtime, whether it's 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock at night, you would then work back, say three hours from that. And that would be, let's say another key point in in the 24 hour cycle, right? So there might be sunset and then another marker on your 24 hour cycle, which is say three hours from from bedtime. and And again, at that point, you would look to change and deliberately control the type of light that's available in any space. Is that right?
00:17:09
Farah
Definitely. Exactly. Exactly. You can control, you should control it to lower levels and eliminate any vertical illuminance.
00:17:19
Green Healthy Places
Overhead or any type of vertical?
00:17:20
Farah
Overhead. Yeah.
00:17:21
Green Healthy Places
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:22
Farah
And over. Yeah.
00:17:24
Green Healthy Places
And so then what metrics can you use to, let's say, performance indicators even that you're watching and helping you to gauge the effectiveness or the the impact of of the work that you do? like What would your typical data points be? is it Is it sort of occupant satisfaction surveys, which is often what I end up using and they can not be the most scientific of approaches? Or have you got other metrics that you're able to use that show, look, here's the impact that we've had on this particular space or here's the problems that we've avoided in in a new build construction, for example?
00:18:05
Farah
Yeah, I think the occupants rating, I think it's very important as a result of the metrics you use, the scientific metrics you use, and they can rate the scientific metrics.
00:18:18
Farah
And for lighting design, or for me specifically, I use daylight factor as a start to start to understand how this space functions during the daytime.
00:18:30
Farah
And from here, I create the contrast of nighttime. so Many other metrics come from here, like illuminance levels, whether if we need like electrical lighting during daytime or not, and then illuminance levels, a light zoning that controls a color light temperature.
00:18:50
Farah
And then we understand the glare. We do glare study and uniformity ratio, how much we want to be uniformed, whether it needs to be uniformed or not.
00:19:01
Farah
Like these metrics are very important. c are i color rendering and index as well is very important. So they all shape our experience within the space. And after that, we get the metrics from the users, which I hope always that it confirms the positive influence that we're trying to create.
00:19:25
Green Healthy Places
Yeah, it's interesting. We're working on something at the moment in in Saudi Arabia for a wellness club in a hotel and providing initial planning and and advisory before the interior designers take over. It's a big project in the spa area in particular. And so there it's all about the effect that we can create or that eventually the interior designers will create. in that space where there's no natural light and you're trying to create a specific mood and things like CRI, these little data points, but they're so important to get right right at the beginning because in the end, users, so that in this case, the spa guests, they they can feel it.
00:20:02
Green Healthy Places
They might not quite know how to express it or say what's wrong, but they can feel it when it's not right. The mood isn't what they were expecting or they they just feel that something's too energizing or too dark in certain areas.
00:20:16
Green Healthy Places
And then at that stage, it's already too late. So it's this interesting mix of, of as you say, the science and the research. And then in the end, it's also just how people feel and how they react once they're in the spaces, right? Because they can they know when it's not right. But when it's perfect, when the lighting is exactly as it should be in that space for that experience, then in a way, you you become invisible.
00:20:39
Green Healthy Places
the work that you've done, right? You shouldn't know that the lighting designer has done their work, but it just all feels as it should be for that experience, right?
00:20:48
Farah
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:20:50
Green Healthy Places
When you think about where we go from here, what's
Integrating Lighting in Architecture and Interior Design
00:20:53
Green Healthy Places
next? How can we keep pushing the idea of lighting contributing to healthy buildings and and wellness interiors? What more do you think there is to do and where do we go perhaps integrating new technology in the future where do you see things evolving over the next few years.
00:21:15
Farah
I would like to see more openness in the industry, in the built environment industry to the role of lighting design. Starting from the architectural firms to the interior design firms, because lighting can act as the glue between both, starting by doing daylight calculations with the architect from the start, from the massing stage of the design
00:21:41
Farah
collaborating with the interior designers about the how you how the mood you want to provide and what materials you're using, how they react to light and the mood you want to create. So I feel, yes, lighting design has has a big future in having a bigger role in elevating the whole built environment. And I hope lighting for the standard for all buildings, actually.
00:22:08
Green Healthy Places
And so you're working basically as as a sub-consultant, right? You're a bit like me sometimes.
00:22:13
Farah
Yeah.
00:22:14
Green Healthy Places
Sometimes it's a more leading role and sometimes we're you're a sub-consultant. And the type of projects that you're working on at the moment or you have worked on in the past, like just to help people understand the type of spaces.
00:22:25
Green Healthy Places
i know you did a really interesting office project recently.
00:22:29
Farah
Yeah.
00:22:29
Green Healthy Places
What other things do you typically work on?
00:22:33
Farah
Yeah, I did an office building, which was very exciting to start with the architect from daylight calculation phase and then go to the interior design. I work on residential apartments, many.
00:22:45
Farah
Also, I did a yoga studio, which was very exciting also because, yeah, to target well-being in a yoga studio was very interesting for me.
00:22:57
Farah
and i do facade lighting as well, garden lighting. and they And I always have the same approach of designing for safety and well-being.
00:23:10
Green Healthy Places
Amazing.
Connect with Farah Nasser for More Insights
00:23:10
Green Healthy Places
And so if people want to learn more about what you do, are you mostly active on your website or on social media? Where can people follow along with what you're up to?
00:23:23
Farah
I am active on social media on LinkedIn and Instagram. Instagram, I try to post educational content for new lighting designers or new people who are interested about light. LinkedIn, more professional. And of course, I can be contacted through my email and I would love to have a conversation even if anyone is interested to learn or think about light.
00:23:47
Green Healthy Places
Cool. Well, we'll add all the links in the show notes. Thank you so for your time.
00:23:53
Farah
Thank you too. Thank you for hosting me. It was very interesting questions.