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GHP 091: Stonewater healthy social housing
45 Plays9 days ago
Welcome to episode 91 of the Green Healthy Places podcast in which we discuss the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in the built environment, from buildings to interiors.
Today we’re in the UK talking to Adam Masters, Assistant Director of Environment and Sustainability at Stonewater, one of the UK’s largest social housing providers, with 40,000 homes delivered across the country, an annual turnover of around £300 million and fixed assets on the books of £3.1billion.
Stonewater offer homes for rent, shared ownership, and purchase with specialised services such as retirement and supported living schemes, safe spaces for the LGBTQ+ community, domestic abuse refugees, and young people’s foyers. So we’re going to cover the green, the healthy and the ethical in residential real estate.
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Transcript
Welcome and Introduction
00:00:05
Green Healthy Places
Welcome to episode 91 of the Green Healthy Places podcast, in which we discuss the themes of well-being and sustainability in the built environment today. And that's from buildings right through to interiors.
What is Stonewater?
00:00:19
Green Healthy Places
Today we're in the yeah UK talking to Adam Masters, Assistant Director of Environment and Sustainability at Stonewater, one of the UK's largest social housing providers with over 40,000 homes delivered across the country, an annual turnover 300 million or so and fixed assets in the books of 3.1 billion. They're a bit of a beast. Stonewater offer for homes for rent, there're shared ownership models and purchase with specialised services, this is where it gets interesting, such as retirement and supported living schemes, safe spaces for LGBTQ plus communities, domestic abuse refugees and young people's foyers. So
Meet Adam Masters
00:00:57
Green Healthy Places
it looks like we're going to cover the green, the healthy and the ethical in residential real estate here today. Adam, thank you for joining us.
00:01:05
Adam
Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
00:01:08
Green Healthy Places
Just briefly then, a quick intro to to yourself and the role that you you have as Assistant Director of Environment and Sustainability.
00:01:18
Adam
Sure. So I'm Adam, Assistant Director of Sustainability at Stonewater. got a background in architecture and environmental design. That's what I studied at university. And that really drew up my passion for sustainability within the built environment. And I chose a career in that path. created a knowledge tra completed a knowledge transfer partnership between a university and a housing association.
00:01:40
Adam
And that is how my my career shifted into into housing and working for housing associations.
Corporate vs Building Sustainability
00:01:46
Adam
And I've worked in sustainability within windh housing for about 14 years now.
00:01:52
Green Healthy Places
And so the role itself obviously then has an environmental aspect strongly. So are you more on the sustainability side, less on the ethical side, or does sustainability at Stonewater mean all of the above?
00:02:06
Adam
Sure. So from my perspective, I oversee more of the environmental sustainability elements of Stonewater. So you cover the broad range of sustainability from corporate sustainability, business travel, sustainable procurement, and then everything to do with the built environment and our homes. So our the sustainability of our new build homes, but also retrofit and improving the efficiency of existing homes.
00:02:29
Adam
And then where there's the sort of more grey area and and the crossover between sort of the ethical that you just referenced. I also oversee the production of our environmental social governance report.
00:02:40
Adam
So an overall oversight of what we publish as an organisation, but we work across the business with other teams in terms of the delivery of those elements, especially the social and the governance elements.
00:02:51
Adam
And there's a really strong focus within Stonewater on equality and diversity. So that's really pulled through in in our ESG report each year that we publish. on our website.
00:03:01
Green Healthy Places
Oh man, there's, okay, there's lots to talk about there, right? So for just because you you sort of skimmed over it, but i think it's important for anyone to understand when you were talking, you mentioned both the sustainability components of the buildings that you're constructing, but then also the sustainability of the business itself. So you were talking about the emissions, about travel, business travel, for example. So there's almost
Understanding UK Social Housing
00:03:23
Green Healthy Places
two sides to it, right? There's your sort of scope-free emissions as a business, and then the sustainability of your output the buildings you are constructing.
00:03:33
Adam
Yeah, absolutely. So we've got that that corporate impact. So we've also got our scope one and two emissions in there in terms of emissions from our buildings and our vehicles, etc.
00:03:36
Green Healthy Places
Yeah.
00:03:45
Adam
And then our scope three emissions make up over 90% of our emissions as an organisation because we've got the emissions from our homes and then also from our supply chain in terms of construction and maintaining those homes is a really large proportion of our emissions too.
00:04:00
Green Healthy Places
Then this idea of social housing within that overall bracket, we'll get onto the healthy home bit passive houses, but if we just think about social housing, I'm not sure if it's a UK specific thing, but how how do we, or how do you as Stonewater, how do you define that today?
00:04:22
Adam
Sure. So social
Challenges in Social Housing
00:04:23
Adam
housing in the UK generally is housing that is more affordable than is available on the open market and targeted at those individuals or families on lower incomes or in some cases with vulnerabilities, as you referenced in the introduction.
00:04:37
Green Healthy Places
Mm-hmm.
00:04:37
Adam
and We've got specific products to support specific groups of people. and In terms of below market rent, we say we have two or multiple types of rent, social rent, which is sort of up to 50%, 60%.
00:04:51
Adam
50 to 60 percent of your market rent or affordable rents which is up to 80 percent of market rents there's different grades of affordability within social housing and then as you said as well we have affordable ownership programs such as shared ownership where people can purchase a proportion of the property using traditional finance or mortgages and then they rent the remaining proportion and then over time they can increase their share in that home and that is a way of enabling people into the property marketing to get their foot on the property ladder.
00:05:23
Adam
That all sits within our sphere and we deliver all of those services.
00:05:27
Green Healthy Places
The interesting crossover then is is joining, as I see what you guys do, this sort of connection between the social housing component and the healthy home piece.
00:05:39
Green Healthy Places
And when you look at a lot of the studies out there on on unhealthy homes, unfortunately, they are typically in the lowest end of the market, because that's where costs are cut.
00:05:51
Green Healthy Places
It's where the low-grade materials go in, which means there's toxins going in, indoor air quality goes completely out of the window. And all of the case studies that I see in from unhealthy homes are all coming out from that same space. And so when I saw what you were doing, I like, wait a minute, how Stonewater able to to do both?
00:06:14
Green Healthy Places
What does
Stonewater's Sustainable Building Strategy
00:06:14
Green Healthy Places
the healthy home component mean for for your company and how are you addressing that theme?
00:06:21
Adam
Sure. So from Stonewater's perspective, I would say healthy homes is, I guess we take a more holistic approach to providing homes. And our aim is to provide homes that allow customers to thrive.
00:06:36
Adam
So that not only means that the homes are comfortable and affordable to run. So from an environmental perspective, they're really energy efficient. Customers can afford to heat them sufficiently and be comfortable in the homes.
00:06:47
Adam
and But it also focuses on air quality, And the comfort also takes account of things like space requirements. And when we're developing new homes, we're trying to build in flexibility.
00:06:59
Adam
So, for example, trying to incorporate home working spaces since the pandemic, we're trying to create dedicated spaces for people working from home because we recognise that's a challenge of of modern families these days. So we're trying to look at all of those aspects that allow individuals and families to thrive because i think we recognise that.
00:07:22
Adam
Health and wellbeing doesn't just come from those four walls that you're living within, but it actually, that home does enable other aspects of your life, whether it be work or school or education. So if you've got a warm, comfortable home, children are more likely to do better at school because they've got somewhere safe and comfortable that they can do their homework.
00:07:42
Adam
And then we look beyond the four walls and try and create green spaces and and good quality open spaces. When we develop new homes, we install public art on our new developments and try and create those public spaces where people can enjoy the outdoors and have pride in the place that they live.
00:08:02
Adam
We plant a tree for every home that we build on the site and try and include edible plants in wherever we can. So we're trying to look at all of those aspects of of people's lifestyles and how we can influence healthy eleven healthy living more generally.
00:08:16
Green Healthy Places
Because there's so much happening at the upper end of the market, right, around luxury wellness homes at the sort of very pinnacle of the industry where everyone's trying to create the healthiest office and the healthiest holiday villa and and what have you.
00:08:31
Adam
Thank you.
00:08:32
Green Healthy Places
You're doing it. The reality is, on a limited budget like there's just you know your cost per meter construction is is so much lower. So you have these like inbuilt constraints, right? So I'm guessing you have to really zero in on what makes most impact and what you can do within the realms of the possible based on your your estimate cost of construction per square meter, right? And everything else you just have to kind of leave aside. So if it's not efficient and not delivering on on real sort of health impact, you just have to leave it out. so
00:09:07
Green Healthy Places
how What have you learned from that process? like have you
00:09:13
Adam
Yeah, that's a good good question. It is a challenge and we're always having to find those compromises and that balance, like you say, between what what we'd really love to deliver and what ultimately we we can deliver in a financially sustainable way so that we can continue to build as many homes as possible. and We need to remember that the core purpose of our business is to provide homes for those that are in greatest need. So we need to try and develop as many homes as we can within the scope that we've got.
00:09:42
Adam
and But at the same time, we're trying to build the highest quality homes that we can within within that realm.
Regulatory Standards and Future-Proofing
00:09:49
Adam
And we do need to make difficult decisions. We have hierarchies within some of our employees requirements and our design brief for new homes. So we've got the ultimate standard we would like to build, but we do then have levels beneath that that we deem acceptable from an energy efficiency perspective so that we can continue to develop as many homes as possible.
00:10:09
Adam
I'd say the one thing we try to do at Stonewater is build consistently or and with our existing homes, improve them consistently to the same standards. So rather than build 10% of our new homes to net zero standards and 90% of them to building regulations, we would rather build 100% of them to a bit better than building regulations than have a really small proportion of homes that are an exemplar project that we've achieved net zero. So we're trying to spread
00:10:39
Adam
our investment to benefit all of our customers in in the same way so we can provide that consistent level of service. One of the learnings and the challenges we've found is where there's a lack of policy and regulation in the UK to really drive these standards forwards. For example, we've been waiting for the publication of the future home standard, which sets out what our new homes should look like and and ensure they're net zero ready, essentially.
00:11:06
Adam
That standard is yet to be published And that means organizations like Stonewater who are pushing the boundaries from a sustainability perspective, we're incurring more costs to meet those standards. Whereas other developers don't necessarily have to do that because it's not regulated.
00:11:20
Adam
That then creates a bit of a disparity in the industry because people can afford to pay less or more for the land, sorry, because they're going to spend less on building those homes. That can then price organizations like Stonewater.
00:11:34
Adam
out of some of those scenarios where we're trying to purchase land because we're building to a higher standard.
Innovative Approaches to Healthy Homes
00:11:39
Adam
We need to fit all of those costs within our envelope in terms of the cost per property.
00:11:44
Green Healthy Places
But those competitors who are not spending more to deliver a healthy home are also not able to play in the the healthy home space. So that is also your differentiator, presumably, you know, something that sets you apart from the industry is that you're, you know, doing this, you're committed to the idea of healthy, uplifting, regenerative homes, whereas perhaps those who are, yeah, let's say cutting costs, or just doing it to the absolute baseline can't play in that space, I hope, right?
00:12:15
Adam
And to some extent, yes. And for social housing providers in the UK, our plan is to own and operate those homes decades into the future.
00:12:17
Green Healthy Places
Mm-hmm.
00:12:26
Adam
So it's in our best interests to make sure we've got healthy homes, one for our customers, but also homes that are future proof. So theyre they're going to meet the requirements of the future in terms of net zero. And we're not going to have to go back and retrofit or install other technologies in those homes to meet the future standards.
00:12:43
Adam
Other deb develop developers who might be building for sale don't necessarily need to worry about investment required to make those homes net zero in the future.
00:12:56
Adam
Installing gas boilers in new homes is a prime example. So Stonewater don't put gas boilers in our new homes because we know that's not going to be a technology of the future. That's not going to allow us to achieve net zero. But in the UK, developers are able to still do that and some developers do still use gas boilers.
00:13:12
Green Healthy Places
So you have a build and hold strategy. You're building these, putting these homes up and then you're holding onto them, not just flipping them on, which which gives you more skin in the game longer term because you know that what you what you construct, you also then have to manage and and operate and and maintain in the longer term. Does that mean if you then flip that back,
00:13:36
Green Healthy Places
you almost have like a playbook in order to deliver those like the health component. Is it you know just a standard approach that there are certain materials that you'll always focus on?
00:13:46
Green Healthy Places
There's certain components that almost create this sort of framework that you use in order to deliver a healthy home or do you have to adapt according to circumstances each time you get a new new
Passive House Projects Experience
00:13:57
Green Healthy Places
site?
00:13:58
Adam
Yeah, so we do have to adapt. So our approach in terms of our specification is more focused on performance. So we have performance specifications that say the home will meet certain standards that might be U values and levels of insulation, levels of air tightness. But then in terms of materials and technology within those homes, we will adapt and we will, that might change depending on the location of the site, planning requirements and ensuring the homes fit with the local area.
00:14:28
Adam
It might also be working closely with our supply chain partners in terms of finding the most cost effective routes to deliver to the standards that we're we're hoping to deliver to. It also leaves scope for innovation. So if new technology comes to market, and we can utilise that technology technology rather than being so specific that we're going to put an air source heat pump in every single one of our homes.
00:14:50
Adam
means then we can't implement something new and exciting that that might actually benefit our customers more. So it leaves it open for that flexibility as well.
00:14:58
Green Healthy Places
Makes sense. I noticed you've also done some some passive house standard buildings as well. And yeah, I think that's passive house, arguably less recognized in the UK and much stronger presence in sort of North Eastern Europe, Germany and Austria, those kind of countries. So I was interested that that to me felt quite innovative in terms of what you're doing. How did that come about? And what what did you learn from that experience? Is it something, was it challenging?
00:15:25
Green Healthy Places
And perhaps maybe we should just introduce the concept of Passive House to someone who's not too sure.
00:15:30
Adam
Yeah, sure. So Passive House is essentially a performance standard and that results in a really high performing low carbon home. It's predicated on key principles such as high levels of insulation, air tightness, things like the use of mechanical ventilation with heat recovery to retain as much of that heat as possible.
00:15:51
Adam
In terms of how that came about for stonewater, a lot of these projects were born out of stonewater shift away from using gas for heating. So in 2021, we made that decision not to use gas anymore.
00:16:04
Adam
But we recognise in the UK, gas is a really cheap fuel compared to electricity. So for home heating, that's the most cost effective fuel. So we recognise the need to make our homes more efficient generally so that we could decarbonise our homes whilst also making sure they're more affordable to run for customers.
00:16:16
Green Healthy Places
Thank you.
00:16:22
Adam
So we're looking for avenues to build more efficient homes. Passive House is one of the solutions and we've delivered two schemes through to passive house standards and we've got one more on site that's due to complete early next year. I'd
00:16:38
Adam
i'd say it's yeah it's it's not widely used within the yeah UK but also there are a lot of other providers out there that are also building passive house homes so I wouldn't say we're unique from that sense.
00:16:49
Adam
One of the big shifts for us in terms of delivering those homes or or learning points is just the way people use their homes in the yeah UK perhaps, and perhaps that's why it's not as widely widely used. But as an example, there's a lot of engagement required with our customers to make it clear that the home is designed to keep the windows closed and we're maintaining a really controlled environment within the home rather than than opening windows to ventilate. We've got that system that will do that for you.
00:17:21
Adam
We also had on one of our schemes, we've installed electric heating within the homes because in the UK it's not really accepted to not have any form of heating in your home. That's quite a scary thing to move into a home and say you don't have any heating because your house doesn't need it. It's so well insulated and well designed that you won't need to turn those heaters on. But we've had to install heating to ensure that customers feel comfortable and confident that they're going to have the requirements that that they need.
00:17:51
Adam
they need And then from from a UK perspective and in terms of the way we monitor our homes, that has a knock on impact in terms of building regulations. So all of our new homes have to have an energy performance certificate, which is modeled in software called SAP, Standard Assessment Procedure.
00:18:09
Adam
But that has some certain assumptions and rules. And when you start to implement panel heaters and electric forms of heating, that impacts the rating of your certificate.
00:18:21
Adam
So whilst we've built a super efficient home, actually on paper, it appears that that home is not so efficient because the certificate is rating it at a a high C rating or a low low B rating rather than an A rating like you would expect a really high performing home. So there's challenges there in terms of then the perception of how efficient that home might be and how customers might find it to run.
00:18:46
Adam
So I guess that's probably the biggest learning point for us is some of the challenges around the way building regulations work in the certification.
Path to Net Zero
00:18:56
Adam
Yeah.
00:18:56
Green Healthy Places
And if if we we take a step back then to look at sort overall your, let's say, pathway to low or zero carbon future for stonewater, what are the what are the key sort building blocks that you're focused on in terms of yeah where you are today and where you need to be in, say, 10 years time?
00:19:16
Adam
Sure. So, i mean in terms of new homes, I would say we're very close. So we've got a building performance hierarchy within our specification that has a net zero operational carbon standard within it.
00:19:31
Adam
The real thing that we need to enable that is to bridge that gap between building to a standard specification and building to net zero from a cost perspective, to be able to do that universally across all of our homes.
00:19:43
Adam
In terms of what the homes look like though, I think we're almost there. We've got the technology that we need to achieve. healthy net zero homes, well insulated, clean energy supply, low cost to run, healthy open spaces, like I mentioned in in the opening part of our conversation.
00:20:04
Adam
So i think that that is what the homes look like. We've got the technology, what we really need is regulation and policy to move on to really shift the industry to doing this universally.
00:20:17
Adam
And then more innovative financing mechanisms to really bridge that gap in terms of, like I said, delivering today's standards to delivering future standards. And I think I see a lot of potential in local renewable energy generation. So local electricity networks, trading of electricity from one home to another. So where we have low rise flats, for example, that don't benefit from much as having solar PV on the roof.
00:20:47
Adam
or can't have as much solar PV per flat. There's ways of moving that clean electricity from one asset to another to benefit all customers equally so that they're getting access to low cost, green, clean electricity.
00:21:01
Adam
I think that will then be the enabler to offset in some of that cost differential as well, because you can trade energy at low cost on on site and recover some of your investment in the technology that way.
00:21:16
Adam
And yet we just need to move away from this reliance on government grant reliance on government grants to deliver all of this over and above so that we can develop a supply chain that's self-sustaining. And once we get to that point, I think that is then the tipping point where we'll be able to deliver this universally in a way that's affordable.
00:21:34
Adam
Once we get past the feeding in the government grant to help the supply chain develop at some point, we need to then find other strategies to move away from that and and deliver this.
Benchmarking with SHIFT
00:21:45
Adam
as part of our everyday business as usual approach.
00:21:49
Green Healthy Places
I see you've also done some work with the shift sustainability standard. Standards provide a benchmark and a some form of, I think, communications benefits as well as in sort of you know communicating to the the general public or to investors work that has been hard work that has been done and that has been quantified and measured and recorded and logged into this sort of system.
00:22:19
Green Healthy Places
How do you see, how did that experience go? was it, is it, obviously we talk about LEED and BREEAM perhaps more than SHIFT, the standards themselves, are they overall in line with, are they keeping up with what you're doing and in that particular space of social housing? Are you finding that it's there's like there's a strong connection between where the standards are sort of focusing their energies and on what you're doing in this corner of the market?
00:22:47
Adam
Uh, I would say so. So we report to shift, which stands for sustainable housing index for tomorrow. So look into the, to the future to make sure homes are sustainable.
00:22:59
Adam
That is a specific benchmarking tool for social landlords. So we find it really useful because it is tailored to the way we do business and the way we work. it can then act as a benchmarking tool so we can compare our performance to our peers because we're all measuring consistently.
00:23:15
Adam
The one thing I would say that how SHIFT differs from BREEAM and LEED and those kind of standards is SHIFT is again, broader, a more holistic view of the business and the organisation as a whole. So not only does it look at the performance of our homes, we have to report on how we engage with our residents around sustainability and sustainable transport,
00:23:39
Adam
waste and recycling. It looks at our strategy and our leadership our operations, our supply chain. So it's looking at that broader impact of stone water that I mentioned at the beginning of of the conversation, making sure that as an organisation, we're working towards that tra trajectory of of net zero effectively.
00:23:58
Adam
And the two actually work well together in terms of individual building standards such as BREEAM. So SHIFT encourage that external verification of our homes and the performance of our homes. So that is actually a tool that we could use if we wanted to, to demonstrate to shift that we've got external verification on the performance of our homes.
00:24:18
Adam
So we're not just reporting EPC ratings, but we've got external certification that says we followed a certain standard and those homes meet meet that level of performance.
00:24:29
Adam
So actually the two work really well together because you've got that additional level of external verification on on the information you're providing. The other final piece that it's really useful for is we also use our shift rating to support our sustainable finance.
00:24:45
Adam
So we've got a number of sustainability linked loans where we have key performance indicators that we have to achieve. One of those indicators is our shift rating. So each year we get a score out of a hundred and we've got a trajectory and a target that we need to meet as part of those sustainability linked loans to secure the discounts on the interest rates that have been agreed.
00:25:05
Adam
So if we achieve our KPIs, we receive a a rebate on the interest of those loans and then that sort of self-sustain and then it encourages the business to become more sustainable because there's a financial benefit to us as well as an organisation and then that that feeds back in.
00:25:24
Green Healthy Places
Well, thanks for that. I think
Holistic Sustainability Approach
00:25:25
Green Healthy Places
it's a really important point to just go a little bit deeper into understanding the standard, which as you suggest, actually covers both the organization and the output of the organization, which is the buildings that you're you constructing. I mean, whereas a Bream or Lead effectively, they're just yeah, they've really only focused on on the real estate itself. You could, as an organization, be up to all kinds of other stuff that would be perhaps less deemed less sustainable, and that would not be reflected in the fact that you'd also just built a extremely high standard real estate project, whether that be commercial or residential. So I think, yeah, it's an interesting point, the idea that what's behind the real estate, what's the developer doing, not just what what is its output,
00:26:16
Green Healthy Places
as in how the how sustainable are its buildings, but also how sustainable is the business that's constructing the Seems logical, but they're they're currently split effectively, right, by the other standards that you then go and do Gresp or a B Corp certification or whatever it might be, but there's sort of typically two, whereas what I'm seeing is that in your world, it's it needs to be one because it's also linked in with the the funding and the loans and the financing behind it.
00:26:44
Adam
Yeah, absolutely. And that that financing goes into the real estate. So that's why it's intrinsically linked then the way we behave as an organization. And we need to be able to demonstrate that.
00:26:55
Adam
the investment is going into an ethical source and for social value and social housing providers that's core to our our business model so so it all links in really well.
00:27:05
Green Healthy Places
I get it.
Focus on Retrofitting and Decarbonizing
00:27:06
Green Healthy Places
Cool. So looking ahead in terms of where you go, both with your role and and let's say, sustainability at large within the organization with Stonewater, like what's the next few years? What are they have in store for you and for the company?
00:27:22
Adam
So There has been for a number of years, but it continues to be a real drive on retrofit and improving our existing housing stock. So we've retrofitted thousands of homes over the last few years, but we've got thousands more to deliver. So in the yeah UK, we're working towards minimum energy standards by 2030, aiming for all of our homes to reach a minimum of a C level on on the energy performance certificate.
00:27:47
Adam
And we're strategic partners for the government's department for energy security and net zero. and through their warm homes funding programme. So we've got a significant programme of investment in our existing homes that we're working towards delivering, but then also feeding into central government on some of their key strategic priorities, such as scaling up the deployment of heat pumps in existing homes and low carbon heating.
00:28:09
Adam
And also looking to undertake some innovation and some trials around deploying low carbon heating within flats and how we decarbonise communal heating systems. that we have low-rise blocks of flats, particularly our retirement living schemes that that we mentioned, that have a central platform and a big gas boiler or multiple gas boilers.
00:28:28
Adam
And they're a real challenge to decarbonise. we're looking at ways that we can decarbonise those homes, not only to benefit customers, but also in terms of our emissions I mentioned, that gas consumption falls within our scope one emissions. So how we decarbonise as a business, that's that's a core part of how we decarbonise. So we'll be looking at tackling that.
00:28:49
Adam
And then on the more broader aspects of sustainability, trying to work more closely with our supply chains, really increase the transparency in our supply chain so we can understand exactly where the products that go into our homes are coming from and what the impact of those is.
00:29:05
Adam
We have a big focus on minimising the use of single-use plastics within the development and construction of our homes. So that's big focus. But a real challenge getting visibility of the supply chain and what's what's really going on. So that's something that we we really want to tackle over the next few years.
Stay Connected with Stonewater
00:29:23
Green Healthy Places
Much respect, man. You're really on the front line of this meaningful work. Thank you for sharing what you're up to. If people want to follow along and and yeah learn more about Stonewater, where do you recommend they go to? Primarily the website or also LinkedIn or any socials?
00:29:38
Adam
Yeah, so we're active on LinkedIn, a lot of our more innovative projects that are published on there, but also the Stonewater website is on there, our sustainability strategy, is published, our environmental social governance report is on there so people can can read. That's a really, really good document to see some of the work that we're delivering.
00:29:56
Green Healthy Places
Cool. We'll add all the links in the show notes. And thanks again for your time.
00:30:01
Adam
Thanks for having me.