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Making career moves with Kimberly Brown
495 Plays2 years ago
In this episode we talked with career and leadership development expert Kimberly Brown about building a career strategically, navigating the hiring process effectively, and dealing with the ebbs and flows of the ever-changing job market to find the right opportunity for your next move.
Learn more about Kimberly and her book, Next Move, Best Move, at https://www.kimberlybonline.com/
Read her column, Your Next Move, at https://www.thecut.com/2022/04/your-next-move-career-advice-column.html
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Content People'
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Content People, a podcast where we talk to creative professionals and leaders to get a behind-the-scenes look at their career experiences and turn that into actionable advice for listeners. Turn into your experts in various media and get inspired to find contentment in your own career. I'm your host, Meredith Farley. As some of you know, I used to be the COO at Brafton, where I oversaw the creative project management and consulting teams. I'm no longer with the company, but Brafton is still producing this podcast. So thanks, Brafton.
00:00:38
Speaker
We recorded this episode a while ago, so you might hear me make reference to my former role just FYI.
Meredith's Podcasting Journey
00:00:45
Speaker
Also, I really wanted to say thank you so much to all the folks who have supported the first few episodes so far. Our listener numbers have been unexpectedly good for such a new podcast. The passion project for me and the text emails and comments have been super kind and supportive. It certainly made me feel pretty vulnerable to be feeling my way through starting a podcast, learning how to really interview folks, trying to accept what my voice actually sounds like, brutal.
00:01:11
Speaker
But one of the benefits of being publicly imperfect is seeing how many friends and colleagues you really have that do wish you well and want to support you. So thanks to all of you. Each and every tiny encouragement has been really meaningful to me. And okay, enough sentimentality and on to
Episode Preview with Kimberly Brown
00:01:25
Speaker
the show. I'm here with our amazing producer, Ian Surven, who's the creative director of video and special project at Brafton. Hey, Ian.
00:01:32
Speaker
Hey Meredith, first of all, I'm super excited to continue doing the show with you. This has been such a fun experience for me to listen to all of these conversations. I've been getting so much out of it and I'm definitely really excited for today's episode with Kimberly.
00:01:48
Speaker
Yeah, me too. And thank you. I love working with you. But yeah, I'm also so excited for this episode. So we're talking about Kimberly Brown. Kimberly is a career and leadership development expert. And her book, Next Move, Best Move, is all about how to strategically approach career development by evaluating your past experiences and using them to build a roadmap for the future.
00:02:11
Speaker
She also writes a really great career advice column for The Cut called Your Next Move, which I love. We can link to that in the show notes. We covered a ton of ground with Kimberly, and it was super interesting to see how her personal journey taught her all of these really valuable lessons about not only building the career that you want, but doing it on your own terms. And she's really taken all of that experience and turned that into resources to help a ton of other people.
00:02:40
Speaker
Absolutely. And we've all probably experienced finding a job, figuring out a career path. It can be really daunting and stressful. And I know that a lot of people feel like they're just making up as they go. I hope that after listening to this episode, you might feel a bit more empowered to take control of your own career journey.
Kimberly's Career Journey
00:03:00
Speaker
All right. Without further ado, here's our conversation with Kimberly Brown.
00:03:11
Speaker
Thank you so much for being on Content People. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. You are very impressive. And I'm so excited to pick your brain about your career advice, your career journey, and the advice that you have for folks. I know some of our listeners might know you, but if not, I want to give them a little context. And so correct me where we're all here, but so you started your career, working in career services at universities like Princeton.
00:03:41
Speaker
And then you moved into diversity talent acquisition at American Express, helping them recruit, retain, and advance its underrepresented talent, while at the same time, you founded your own leadership development company called Manifest Yourself.
00:03:57
Speaker
And then in 2021, you wrote your first book, Next Move, Best Move. And you're currently also the author of your next move, which is a really amazing career advice column on the putt, which I really love. And I'm always excited when there's a new column out.
00:04:14
Speaker
One, whoa, and two, did I miss that thing then? No, no, no, that's about right. I will say that I stumbled a little bit before I came into career counseling. I always tell people that I didn't just graduate college and I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I definitely stumbled like most people do after undergrad, so there's a few other odd jobs than half of before I got into a career that I really liked.
00:04:36
Speaker
I think that is super helpful because I feel like sometimes people get really successful people and they're like, man, they were just born knowing exactly their path and their journey. What were your symbols? What jobs did you do? What did you think you might want to do before you got into what you're doing now?
00:04:52
Speaker
Oh, gosh. Well, when I went to college, so I studied vocal jazz for about 10 years, so I was obsessed with music. So I wanted to be a music teacher when I went to college. My parents said that wasn't happening. I said,
00:05:08
Speaker
Well, it looks like I'll figure out how to pay for my education. So I figured out how to do it. But the crazy thing is that I ended up changing my major very shortly after that. I think I went to psychology. And then I went to marketing. In my book, I tell the story of wanting to be like Chante Smith and Connie Spalding from this old film called To Complete That Game. So if you picture like
00:05:31
Speaker
the really colorful structured suits, high powered slicked back ponytails with like the corner office and the receptionist who were looking Manhattan. I swore that was going to be me when I graduated college. It was not, I worked as a, they called it like a marketing analyst role, but it really was like a data type of role that I was in. A lot of data entry and I wasn't really enjoying that. And then I moved into finance.
00:05:59
Speaker
And I worked as a banker for a few years, then I was in college admissions, and then I found my way to career services. And that's when I kind of stayed on that path with talent ever since that time. Oh man, I love that. I guess psychology, marketing, teaching, those are all still kind of aspects and elements of what you're doing, or I can see them being part of it. Do you feel like you're pulling on those pieces of yourself?
00:06:28
Speaker
A little bit, I feel like hindsight is 20-20, right? Everything makes sense when it's done. My master's is also in counseling. And I think that I used to make a joke that when I did career counseling back in the day, like, if your career isn't going the way you want it to go, then generally, like, your life isn't exactly where you want it to be. Because your career takes up how much time? 40 plus hours a week. So it's really, really hard to be happy in life if your career is making you unhappy. But I used to say a joke, like, if you cry too hard, you may need me and a therapist.
00:06:58
Speaker
And you see so many transitions in between your overall feelings by yourself and the world when your job isn't going well. So the counseling and the psychology definitely helps. The marketing when it comes to personal and professional branding, 100%. Finance is such a huge part of why we work, right? Because I'm pretty sure many of us wouldn't have a job if we didn't have bills to pay. So kind of having all those overlaid in my background definitely makes sense now. But I definitely thought I was treading water when I was figuring it out.
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. Well, I'm happy you shared that because even from the outside, I kind of thought she always knew what she wanted to do. No, don't know. But what you're saying, I think, I imagine will ring true for a lot of people is the idea that kind of how you feel about work is maybe how you feel about a sizable chunk of your life right now. And I think that's why
00:07:54
Speaker
sometimes examining and talking and supporting people and around work is so important. But also it can be hard to kind of untangle one from the other sometimes. In your column, when you're giving great career advice, do you sometimes feel like you're giving life advice?
00:08:14
Speaker
Sometimes a little bit, because I think a lot of times people ask questions to things they already have the answer to. They just want permission. And how you take action, so I'll bring it back a little bit more. So when people talk about personal branding, they always think about themselves being this completely different human in the world of work.
00:08:33
Speaker
But the truth is you're the same human, the same human. It's just a little bit more polished, right, in the workplace. But there's so many themes that happen at work and still happen at home. It's just different scenarios that happen. I think we need to stop separating it so much and just kind of look at the whole human.
00:08:52
Speaker
And in the column, I like to just kind of weigh both. Like, how can you be happy in life and at work? That's why the tagline of my book is transitioning into a career you'll love. Like, it's possible to have some level of love for your job. And I think that just makes you generally a healthier and happier human. Yeah. Wow. Well, I love that.
00:09:15
Speaker
So I really want to dig into your book and your writing. And maybe first, I was wondering if you could walk listeners through your career journey thus far, maybe starting with the careers counseling and kind of moving up to where you are today.
00:09:35
Speaker
Sure, sure. So I think that's taking it back to 2011-ish. That was the first time I got a job as a career counselor.
Strategic Career Moves
00:09:44
Speaker
I made that move strategically from admissions to career counseling because I was moving back to working at my alma mater. I discovered I loved higher education after being in finance.
00:09:54
Speaker
But admissions I wanted a longer term relationship with the student and potentially working with alumni. And because admissions, like most people don't remember their admissions counselor, right? They get you in and then you go about your life. Career counseling, you get to work with them throughout their progression as undergrad, graduate students and alum. I've worked with folks who are age 18 who don't know what to do with their life.
00:10:13
Speaker
all the way through folks who are in their 60s and looking to pull everything together and do something fun and maybe you don't want to retire yet. And the first time I saw a student get a job as a direct result of working with me, I was hooked. It was the best feeling in the entire world. I still talk to that student to this day on Instagram.
00:10:32
Speaker
And I just knew that's where I wanted to go. So once I knew that I wanted to stay in career counseling, my obsession became I want to be a director of career services. So I looked at different directors of career services and universities that I liked and appreciated and respected and kind of looked at their backgrounds like, well, what do I need to do? So I've mastered career counseling and
00:10:54
Speaker
That first job, I think I worked specifically with business students, the College of Education and Information Sciences. I think I did grad and undergrad in that area, but I didn't get to touch alumni. So I knew the next job, I need to work with more alumni. And I wanted to do more of the employer development side. So I made a transition to my next job. I worked with employer development, alumni programming, and alumni counseling.
00:11:18
Speaker
After that, I knew I wanted to kind of get more of an operations, more strategic view. So I had the opportunity to move to another college where I built out an employer outreach program, which really, again, pulled in more alumni and I was the first person to ever have that job.
00:11:34
Speaker
So I got to build my team and build from the ground up. At that point, I was an associate director, still loving it. In my book, I have a whole chapter on professional association. The reason I've been able to move throughout my career really and truly is from networking and professional association. I didn't have some of my network already, I use professional associations to find it. So I was a part of, let me see if I can get it right, it's called NYSEA, the New York State,
00:12:00
Speaker
cooperative and experiential education association. It's like a long, I can just say and I see it, but I forget it. I joined that organization and that got me in touch with people all over in New York State. Then I got into more of the metropolitan organizations. And by that time, so that had been that's 2011 to maybe 20.
00:12:19
Speaker
18 all in career services. That's when I started to get ready to apply for a director level job that since I'd moved to the associate director level. I had a job search like many people have had. Sometimes when you're looking, things just don't hit. I was top two and I was not number one like Beyonce. I was consistently number two and very upset about it. I had one particular search that was
00:12:44
Speaker
It was heart shattering. I was number two and I thought I had it. I knew I had it. I was devastated and their number one candidate actually rescinded their acceptance. They came back to me and said, oh my gosh, we'd love to have you. Are you still interested? I was like, well, you know, maybe this is just fate. I was like, yes. They wanted me to come back in and meet the team after we had the phone call. Then they ended up rescinding it again like, hey, we're going in a different direction.
00:13:11
Speaker
Oh, oh, that is brutal. Oh, my gosh. I've never really cried over a job. I've never really been like that upset. But I had envisioned like the trench I was going to wear with the boots, like walking through and at that point, I was so devastated. So then I was like, OK, well, maybe I need to take a step back. My company was doing pretty well at that point. I was like, I really like DEI.
00:13:33
Speaker
What if I
Transition to Corporate America
00:13:34
Speaker
think about moving into a role in corporate America? And I got introduced to someone through a connection, and it was the fastest interview process I ever had. And I had a job at a Fortune 100 company within maybe like two weeks.
00:13:54
Speaker
Once I applied and did all that stuff, it was very quick through the introduction. And that's how I moved back into corporate and I was the director of Global Diversity Talent Acquisition Strategy. So globally looking at how to recruit, retain, promote underrepresented talent and whatever that meant and we ship our country.
00:14:13
Speaker
And I loved it. And I literally, I didn't leave that job until I physically couldn't do my business and the job at the same time. Probably should have left like six months before I did because I 100% burned out. My health was suffering. I was miserable. But I just, I loved my team. I loved everything about that job. And so that's when you were working on manifest yourself. And were you also at that point working on your book or did that come later?
00:14:40
Speaker
Oh, so I was certifiably crazy. Do not recommend. Repeat, do not recommend. But I wrote my book during that crazy period. And the book was actually published maybe three weeks after I resigned. So I'm like, if I wrote it through that whole crazy period. Yeah. It was very busy. Yeah. So, I mean, I think
00:15:07
Speaker
And all of your, well, actually, OK, one more question before we jump into some questions I have about the advice you give. How did the cut come about for you? Was that after the book or during? What was that process like? That was after the book. I think the book, I was
00:15:24
Speaker
People told me like a book is like a business card now since like we're not seeing people in person. You never know who has it. And I think between the book and my podcast, that's where a New York mag found me and asked if I'd be open to being a career columnist. Wow, what a whirlwind.
00:15:41
Speaker
Oh, I was so excited. I felt very like Carrie Bradshaw-esque. And I don't know what it is about writing the column, but that's when I felt most comfortable calling myself an author and a writer after the column. I don't know why the 54,000 plus words in my book didn't make me as comfortable saying I'm an author and a writer, but with the cuts. But both those combined. I'm like, okay, I'm a writer. I write books. I have a column. I feel much more confident in saying that now.
00:16:11
Speaker
how it's really interesting around. So in the book and in your column, you're giving something more strategic and successful when they're pivoting their careers or trying to move up in their existing column.
00:16:27
Speaker
And I know that each, like the question, the irresponsible place that they teach a person, but I'm wondering if there are common mistakes you see people make or places where folks instantly get stuff, kind of hold themselves back a little bit.
00:16:43
Speaker
So a lot of it, I think, comes down to belief in what you can do and just demystifying the process. So last week's column was someone who was nervous about taking a step back in title, but a step up in money. And I think that naturally some of us will be like, what are you talking about? I want more money, thank you very much. You can call me whatever you want to call me. But
00:17:05
Speaker
I think the world of work is changing so fast. I read a statistic recently that talked about the jobs that we have today, like 10 years ago, most of them didn't even exist, especially when we're thinking about marketing, communications, anything in the web. There's so many things that we didn't have. So sometimes we don't know what to hold on to. And I think that reader specifically, if I speak to that one,
00:17:27
Speaker
It's the fear of, if I make this step, is it going to set me up for success or am I going to have to explain it and I won't be able to get hired later? I think that's the biggest question. If I do A, will I still be able to get to B?
00:17:42
Speaker
Or am I going to be somewhere dribbling the ball by myself and not knowing how to get back to my own career strategy? I think the biggest mistake people have is probably not having a career strategy in place. So they're just guessing and hoping that whatever their next step is, is the next logical one.
00:18:00
Speaker
but not thinking a little bit more long-term so when i explained my career earlier i said that i was a career counselor i wanted to become a director of career services so i figured out what skills i needed and i moved according to what i needed. To get to that goal i think many times people know where they are now.
00:18:18
Speaker
And they may or may not know where they'd like to be in like five to 10 years. And they just kind of look at opportunities or they're going based upon their gut of like, oh, I don't like this job right now. I need to do something else. And kind of leaping and recycling almost the same situation, just a different company or a different title. So when you're not moving with strategy, it's really hard to make.
00:18:39
Speaker
good sound decisions for your career. I think between that and just not wanting to do the wrong thing, those are the biggest things. I tell people all the time, when you look at your career and you look at the next move that you're making, I don't like to think,
00:18:54
Speaker
too far past the two-year mark. I think it's important to have that long-term goal of that 5 to 10, 100%. When I work with clients, I say, OK, where do you want to be in 10 years? OK, so to be there in 10, where do we need to be in 5?
00:19:10
Speaker
To be there in five, where do we need to be in two? And then we start to backtrack and really start building plans out in six month increments of what they need to be working on and what they need to do. When you think of a point A to point Z or that tenure, it seems so far that you're like, I'll get there, I'll figure it back out. But you have to be a little bit more strategic. I think when we start adding strategy into how we manage our career, I think that's where a lot of people really begin to see more success.
00:19:39
Speaker
That makes sense to me and that resonates with me too. I really, I like an actionable plan with some milestone that I feel like I can see that being really helpful to the people you're talking to and work with. What would you say to someone who maybe feels like
00:19:59
Speaker
They are not sure where they're trying to go. They're tired. They're burned out. They know they don't like what they're doing right now, but they're having trouble envisioning something good for themselves, even in two years. Do you have any tools or tips for people who are feeling kind of like, I don't even know where I'm trying to go. I'm just a little tired.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is so, so common. So common, especially if you've been just working like crazy and you're just unhappy, you're at the point where like, can I just take vacation for six months and then I'll come back? Totally get it. So the first thing I asked them to do is kind of take themselves out of their own resume, out of their own experience and really start looking not at their experience tied to a particular industry, but at their experiences and their skills, their passions, just as these singular things. Like, so they really like,
00:20:50
Speaker
working with people. They're very passionate about sports. You have a lot of experience working with data and start to see where are the things that you like individually without thinking about a company or anything else.
00:21:07
Speaker
And then really start to look at those things and start to do some informational interviews. I love informational interviews. I'm asking folks in my network for introductions or reaching out to people who are doing jobs that you think are really cool. It sounds so simple, but you really need to understand what is the job day to day. So it can be completely different than what you think it is. So I always recommend doing informational interviews to get some ideas and almost set it up like a
00:21:32
Speaker
college application process, right? When we were in high school, they had you essentially do a good, better, best. I think they called it like your top school, like the school that you'd be like, okay with going to, but you wouldn't be that happy. And then your safety school happens to not get anywhere else you have the safeties. Set up your job search in the same way. Once you know what your skills, your passions, your experiences are, where you want to put those down, you figured out after talking to a few folks or even doing some research on where are people, what did it take for them to get there?
00:22:02
Speaker
what different companies do they work at, what different jobs that they have, and kind of comparing apples to apples of, okay, this sounds like this may be a good fit. What are the top three jobs you'd be interested in applying to, and then start going through that process. And the more time you give yourself, the better.
00:22:18
Speaker
It takes the average person about six months to find a job. But many times people want to find a job in a month because they wait until they're so unhappy. Or they're in a situation that unfortunately led to them just being really unhappy and they have to go. But if you give yourself as much time as possible to explore, to do informational interviews, to find out more information on the company, on the colleagues, the culture, the managers, hopefully it'll make your next move much more successful.
00:22:43
Speaker
That makes a lot of sense. And I also like what you said to you about sometimes who are waiting too long and they're miserable and then they're a little desperate. But how, when would you recommend, like when should someone know, okay, now is the time where you need to start exploring your next step.
Mastering Roles and Strategy
00:23:01
Speaker
And maybe now it's time for you to move on from this company. Even if you're comfortable, happy, you like it.
00:23:07
Speaker
So I will say this is a very personal decision. I think some folks don't agree with me. I think one of my mentees recently got very upset with me when we had a conversation about moving. But hopefully, in a few years, maybe they'll appreciate my advice a little bit more. But I really believe in role mastery. If you have a career strategy in place,
00:23:28
Speaker
and you know the things that you need to learn in order to get promoted to get that next experience. Try your best to master and take everything from that job that you can.
00:23:41
Speaker
So when you start to feel like your job is almost on autopilot, that's the time where you should start thinking about it. And when you told me about your audience, if we're thinking folks are like 24 to 35-ish, most folks, most people, that comes around the two-year mark.
00:24:00
Speaker
Most of the time where it's really a well oiled machine. The thing about year one, you're still meeting all the people, learning your job, figuring out all the things. Year two is where you can really start to put your stamp on things. I don't want anyone to be in a job where they're not trying to put a stamp. I do not care if there were 20 people before you in that role and they have a whole...
00:24:20
Speaker
SOP of how to do your job. How can you put your stamp, leave your mark on that job and improve existing systems? And once you started to do something like that, I'm like, oh, now it's time to really start thinking about.
00:24:33
Speaker
moving, starting to have some informational interviews, starting to get into professional association, even putting out some failures with job applications. That's what I recommend for the average person. Generally, that two-year mark, 100%, I think people should start looking. But the same time, I always say leave room for magic, right? And magic to me means that it could just be a coincidence
00:24:56
Speaker
So you meet someone out of the blue and they say, oh my gosh, I think you'd be really great here. We happen to have a director of blah, blah, blah available. Would you be interested? And even if you feel like you need a little bit more time or you were hoping to get that, like you wanted to spend another year, sometimes like take a look, is it worth you making the move now? Even if you've only been in your current job for a year, sometimes magic happens. You have to like,
00:25:21
Speaker
weigh the pros and cons because not every opportunity is the opportunity you should be doing when you know what your strategy is. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. It's interesting. It's also, I'm thinking of it too, from the employer perspective of when people hit that level of mass during maybe two years, that's also when they start getting really good at it because they're less stressed. They don't have to think or work so hard because they know what to do. They can start thinking at a slightly higher level because they can
00:25:50
Speaker
They've got a little more time, generally, because it's not taking them quite as long. It's tricky about how to keep the roles, I guess, from the employer perspective, when you notice that mastery happening, keeping people progressing, challenging them, giving them new opportunities within the organization if you're trying to keep them around.
00:26:08
Speaker
It's kind of an unfortunate last purpose that the moment it's totally right for a staff member to move on is also maybe the moment they have just like hit a real nice peak as an incredibly confident member of the team. That's the hard part when we start talking about internal pipelines because the best pipeline of talent that an organization has are generally the people who are already in it.
00:26:34
Speaker
If you're forward thinking as a manager, I tell my managers, stop kind of looking at each employee as staying in their lane. You just want them to do that job and that is it. Just get it done, execute these tasks so that our team can move forward, et cetera. But these are people and they're going to get bored. And by the time they get bored, if they've asked a few times, do you see someone who's really looking to move forward? They're a go-getter. They're asking for more work or trying to understand things.
00:27:01
Speaker
encourage that, but do it at every level. So if you know, let's say there's an analyst, a manager, and a director. Again, you see that the manager is really getting close to moving to that director level. Maybe it's time to start deciding what analyst should you start developing more? How can they start shadowing that manager? You keep that pipeline coming and thinking about the future, not just for your company, but for your employees. That's how you can hopefully combat that.
00:27:29
Speaker
And employees are more willing to wait, more willing to have great conversations, help with training if you're open and honest. Too many managers say they give no feedback. They go, you know, everything is going great. You know, when the time is right, we'll just make that move. And it's like, no, you have to be willing to put some time on it. What are the exact skills they need to get that promotion? What do you feel is missing so people can constantly be developing and better understanding themselves? Because that would help with retention overall.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I totally agree. We do a lot of... I think at Rapid, maybe what you're talking about is one thing that we do, I would say, pretty well. And it's been incredibly... It's been an awesome way to use cheap, good people with us and engaged and still growing and
00:28:21
Speaker
also been really wonderful to just keep some continuity in the organization. So that totally resonates with me. I think that's great advice. And let's see it. One thing that I think
00:28:37
Speaker
when people are thinking about living to a new organization, especially if they're really comfortable where they are, they might be really anxious about taking on a new role and then later regretting it. So I was wondering if you could talk about what are red flags and green flags in a job search? Cool. Okay. So I think when we talk about red flags, I think
00:29:05
Speaker
When you're interviewing at a company, it's important for you to be interviewing them just as much.
Interview Insights and Barriers
00:29:10
Speaker
And I think making sure that they understand.
00:29:13
Speaker
Your manager understands, your team understands. Do they have a clear understanding of your role? A clear understanding of the career path for that job. Do you get a good amount of face time with your manager, with the team, even with your skip leader, your manager's manager, to really understand? Or are they keeping you and your role in a silo? You only meet one person and that's it and you're hired.
00:29:36
Speaker
I think those are red flags people aren't able to ask. Don't have the opportunity to meet multiple people across the team, across the organization. From a DEI perspective, I think I can't not say that you want to see various people interviewing you in the process.
00:29:55
Speaker
races, ethnicities, genders, levels across the organization. You don't just want to be speaking to people who are at the all director level and you're coming in as an analyst. You should also see some people who are less senior as well, so you're able to get different perspectives. Green lights I think are more about
00:30:17
Speaker
the quality of the conversation, the depth of the work that you'll be involved in. Essentially the opposite of all the negatives, all the red flags, right? Being able to really speak to those points and make sure that you're supported. Having a really great onboarding plan is always really helpful, especially in this hybrid work environment. So many folks are saying that it's harder starting in a
00:30:39
Speaker
virtual environment now because you can't necessarily, you're not making friends. Some of the online events, the Zoom events that are happening, they're great. We love them, right? I love them too. I wouldn't want to go back into an office. But in terms of interacting with folks, it's a little hard. You never actually get to know your colleagues, you just get to know your team. So how do they combat that? How do they ingrain you in the culture? I just challenge you to also think about anything that's really important to you.
00:31:07
Speaker
that's really, really important to you. If you're not seeing that or getting a good answer when they're responding to a question, I think keep that top of mind.
00:31:21
Speaker
in your search, don't be afraid to push to get the information that you need. And that's another reason why I think networking and professional associations are so important because when you have the insider information, it makes the interview process even better. There's nothing like talking to someone off the record about their experience at the company outside of the interview process to help you really make that decision.
00:31:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really, really good advice. That makes a lot of sense. And I would say one thing, so I mean, I've been a wrapped in a long time here at Teen, so I don't have quite as much on the ground experience with some of the things that you're talking about, but some folks that I've mentored have mentioned that there are some jobs, here's what you think about this, where they say during the interview process,
00:32:09
Speaker
they felt like they definitely had a lot of imposter syndrome going on and they felt like, oh man, maybe I'm just like, I'm not smart enough for this role. I'm already in over my head. I kind of don't understand the role as they're expressing it. I don't know how these people like are all related to each other.
00:32:26
Speaker
And then when I sat down with them, I was like, we can figure this out. Let's talk it through. My take was, actually, this organization is not really communicating with you clearly. You're the first person to get that, and you are capable of digesting and absorbing information. But it's imposter syndrome and worry you're feeling.
00:32:44
Speaker
is actually the result of they don't seem that clear on this role. They're not answering your questions directly. But it was kind of funny how it was manifesting for this particular person I'm thinking where they just didn't feel good enough and they thought, oh, maybe I'm secretly not smart enough and this will be the job that blows my cover. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that if you feel like that's common or not particularly.
00:33:10
Speaker
I think it is. I think whatever you're moving to a new company, especially if you spend a good amount of time at your current company, or even if it's just been two years, it's an adjustment. Everybody is new. Your boss is new. The same way that you are putting on your absolute best face that day in your interviews, they're doing the same exact thing. So you really don't know until you get in there. So having imposter syndrome is
00:33:34
Speaker
I think it's normal. Sometimes I even say that I almost like a little bit of imposter syndrome because it makes me feel like I'm challenging myself and I'm not getting too complacent. But what I ask for my clients to do is really make sure they're advocating for themselves. So in the situation you talked about, Meredith, if you're not understanding, like ask.
00:33:51
Speaker
Don't be afraid to hop back on another call. I tell my clients all the time, if you meet another call, another quick conversation before signing on the dotted line, ask, hey, can I have another 15 minutes with the manager? With a few quick questions, I just want to make sure that I'm clear on. I say you're going to go back and forth to negotiate your salary, which I hope you're doing.
00:34:09
Speaker
It's the same way you can go back if you don't really understand the team structure, you don't understand the hierarchy structure. The same way when we talked about on the cut, the last article about the person who didn't know if they should go down in title, but go up in salary. You don't know the structure within an organization, right? Titles are so subjective.
00:34:34
Speaker
And especially when you start talking about small organizations versus mid-side versus large, you may just call something different in your current company. It can be the exact same thing with a different terminology, all the different ways people quit it. So I always say when you're going to a place new, don't necessarily think that it's all you, right? You have to learn. That's why you really need that onboarding period, that training period, the imposter syndrome.
00:35:00
Speaker
It's a combination of you just having your feelings, right? Being in a new situation, being the new kid on the block. But it's also like you need to learn their culture and you're not going to be able to learn it until you get in there to start asking questions. So it's very, very natural.
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And it was good advice. And we certainly wrapped up and got tons of those requests and questions for folks who are trying to hire. And usually for us, it's a green flag, too, about an applicant to get those questions. Because we're like, OK, they care. They're paying attention. They're clarifying. They're communicating well, which are all obviously green flags for us. Yes. So one thing I want to touch on is that
00:35:46
Speaker
I think there are obviously some external forces that impact and hold back women and people of color in the workplace. But I think also sometimes internalized forces inflicted by wrong and harmful messages from media and society that can be easily internalized and also hold people back.
00:36:10
Speaker
And I'm wondering if you see, like, if there are any thematic misbeliefs or harsh self judgments that you wish you could kind of help people snap out of. Are there like mantras or thoughts you think women and or people of color should have in their personal toolkits or just being mindful as?
00:36:31
Speaker
That's a really, I think, interesting question, because I think it puts the onus back on, in this case, the woman or the person of color. Sometimes I think it's right, but I also think it's wrong in some cases, because we talked about there's so much happening in the workforce. You could be the absolute
00:36:49
Speaker
best person in whatever job you have. But if you have a company that has a lot of bias, you have a boss who is passive aggressive and shows microaggressions, it does not matter how great you are because that external force is going to keep you where you are. You may not be supported, you may not have mentorship, sponsorship, etc. But I think speaking about the person because you can only control yourself. I think I wouldn't necessarily say that I'd want them to
00:37:18
Speaker
have a mantra or a way to kind of give themselves more self-assurance, but I'd want them to be able to
00:37:29
Speaker
really make sure they can evaluate themselves and understand that not all feedback is about them. That's one of the most beautiful things one of my mentors told me is like, not all feedback is about you. So when you're receiving negative feedback or bias or microaggressions or anything in the workplace, really being able to evaluate yourself and be like, is this true, right?
00:37:50
Speaker
Is it true? So a lot of times in the workplace, they'll think that black women are a little too aggressive, right? So when you're sitting back and you're thinking about, okay, on that project, were you your boss? And yeah, you were a little too aggressive in that meeting. Were you being too aggressive or were you asserting yourself? Which one? And really think about it. I know when I'm being aggressive.
00:38:11
Speaker
and I 100 percent can't be, I am very much aware. But some situations is like, no, I really just said, I think we should go in this direction instead based upon ABC. So I think being able to really do some self-evaluation I think is really crucial and also understand when it's a situation that may be an uphill battle that you don't want to fight. You don't always have to fight it. Maybe it's time for you to go.
00:38:37
Speaker
And I also encourage folks, especially women and people of color, to find mentorship and sponsorship.
00:38:43
Speaker
I push more on the sponsorships, entrepreneurship and then mentorship to make sure you always have another advocate for you in the workplace and make sure that you have a good community around you. It could be really hard. I think making sure you have a really good community and even if you are the one and the only on your team and your company, et cetera, just making sure that you're surrounding yourself with great advocates for you and not be afraid to advocate for yourself. I'm someone who's been very
00:39:10
Speaker
I don't want to say I'm very comfortable because it is uncomfortable, but I am not. I've been in a lot of situations where I was the only person of color and the only woman or the only black woman combination. I was raised in a very small town in Connecticut where I was one of very, very, very few, sometimes the only minority K through 12.
00:39:30
Speaker
So I'm very used to those situations, even though they're uncomfortable. So I never want to take away from someone's experience being in a situation like that. But I think one of the most important things is having support, whether it's an ally or having another woman or person of color there for you to confide in. That makes total sense to me. I think I really like what you said about like, is it true? And also the fact that it's like a terrible
00:40:00
Speaker
an unfair burden to be in the position of having to analyze with a different lens, like, is what they're saying to me about me or not? Especially because now if you're not sure, then sometimes the feedback is like, well, you're just being defensive. You're not taking my feedback on just like a salt in the wound. And the idea of having other people around too can be that objective supportive outside voice so you're not just in your head.
00:40:29
Speaker
Makes total sense. How do you recommend people find mentors or sponsors? Actually, how would you define the difference between mentorship and sponsorship?
Mentorship vs Sponsorship
00:40:40
Speaker
Mentorship, for me, is more about feedback. It's more of that more regular conversation you're able to have with someone who's been there, done that. The key to most good mentors is that they've literally been where you are or they are exactly where you want to go like your next step.
00:40:57
Speaker
very direct experience. The sponsor, that is like the special sauce because the sponsor has power and influence, and not every mentor has that. A sponsor is able to take you to exactly where you want to go based upon their power and influence. If you were to say, Kimberly, I want to work at ABC Company, if I had a contact there and was able to call them, call the hiring manager and be like, hey, you have to talk to Meredith.
00:41:24
Speaker
Like, no if, ands, or buts, she's incredible. And off my word, they give you that interview, that's what a sponsor can do. It's making sure you have the influence to open the door and hopefully, like, seal the deal for whatever that person needs. I joke and say that sponsors pick you up from where you are and put you where you rightfully belong. Because you can skip levels, pick time, skip processes, because your sponsor has the power to really make that happen. Okay.
00:41:52
Speaker
The mentorship, they've been there before and give you good advice, but like guidance from the sidelines. Sponsorship, someone who is going to have the ability to influence the outcome and what happens for you. Exactly. They can literally give you the opportunity.
00:42:08
Speaker
And i think that i want to tell folks about sponsors and mentors to is you don't need to talk to someone everyday i think there's a misconception especially the younger generations about how much you need to talk to your mentor your sponsor. Sponsor you generally don't talk to them a lot. I don't maybe there are a great mentors will you make it lucky and have a combo.
00:42:29
Speaker
But sponsors, again, they have that power and influence, which probably means they don't have time. If you call them in when it is fourth quarter on the clock, that's that play that you have at the end with 15 seconds on the clock.
00:42:45
Speaker
They're not coming in every day to talk about the day-to-day nuances of the process. They're there to make that power play for you. Your mentor, they probably have a little bit more time. It's important to me with them on a regular basis. You need exposure to both folks, but generally most sponsors because they have that power.
00:43:04
Speaker
you may not be able to get on their calendar all the time i know i waited months sometimes again on some of my mentors or sponsors calendar depending upon how much. What their level seniority is with the level of power influences of each have to keep at it i think. I always want i'm clear where i want to go that i look for mentors and sponsors to advocate i'm in working connect with.
00:43:25
Speaker
who are aligned with that. So I think it's really important that you discover where you want to go. So then you're like, okay, if you want to be a director of communications, well, where are other directors of communication? Like what organizations do you need to go to color com or name it and find different organizations to talk to and start to target people who are in similar roles in companies that you like.
00:43:47
Speaker
I think sometimes people do the reverse and they want a mentor to help them figure everything out. But it's so much more powerful when you do the reverse and you kind of figure yourself out that a mentor and a sponsor can come in and magnify your plan and help you get there. And if you have to make some pivots, they can help with that too. Um, but again, if you kind of have more direction yourself, it's helpful. Okay. No, that makes sense. And we can, um, link to some in some of the organizations you mentioned to you in our show notes. Definitely. That makes,
00:44:18
Speaker
That's great. And then, I mean, I know we don't have too much time left, but a lot of our listeners might have a creative writing background or marketing.
Getting a Book Deal
00:44:30
Speaker
And I know everyone, most everyone is curious about how to get a book deal.
00:44:35
Speaker
So because I feel like you are such an authority on how to position yourself for what you want, I really wanted to ask you to talk people through what was your process for being approached or approaching a publisher or agent about creating a book? What was your writing process like? It sounds like it was intense because you had so many other things going on. And how did you know what precisely you wanted or needed the book to be about?
00:45:03
Speaker
Oh my gosh, those are such deep questions. I think normally people ask me, like, how was the process writing a book? And I say, oh, it was terrible. What are the hardest things I've ever done in my entire life? Don't recommend, but I'm doing it again. What? But the questions are so good. So number one, I will say that I reached out to a friend of mine who published with Wiley Publishing, and I was fortunate enough to get an introduction. And that's how I landed my first book deal. For the second time around, I'm working with an agent.
00:45:32
Speaker
It's a little bit different of a process to shop a book versus an introduction directly to the publisher. I think that when it comes to writing a book, I think one of the things people forget is the marketability of the book because so many times we have a story, we have something that we want to share, but it's how do you convince someone that there's a market for it? How do you show people how you're going to market your own book and share? I think the marketing piece of getting a book deal is probably one of the most intense.
00:46:01
Speaker
because when I thought of writing and maybe this is just me, I thought of it as some, like I wanted to document my experience and put it down on paper and I need to see my name on a shelf or hold it in my hand and it's very almost selfish, right? It's like this is like your experience that you want to have. When you're talking to a publisher, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but how are other people going to like your experience? Are they going to buy your experience or they don't buy it? We don't need it. The average author, I think they say,
00:46:30
Speaker
has they only sell like 2,500 books over the lifespan of the book. Wow. If you think about what it takes to be a New York Times bestseller, a New York Times bestseller I think is like most of the time 10 to 15,000 in a week. Wow. Plus resell at the first week of the book and pre-sale. So 2,500, 10 to 15 in a week, there's a big gap there. What I tell folks is, think about not only your story, but what is it when it teach other people?
00:47:00
Speaker
How is it going to help other people change, be motivated, inspired, et cetera, by the words that you have? And what is your marketing plan? What is the plan to sell books? I think that's a big seller when you begin to go traditional, is how are you going to leverage your platform, your network to move these books? Because just because you publish a book doesn't mean people are going to read it or know about it.
00:47:21
Speaker
You have to figure out how to get the word out there. Every publisher is a little bit different. I have a whole team who I had. I had a publicist, I had social media, helped. So there's all the things that went toward getting my book out into the world. In terms of my writing process, I worked with a book coach and I had an editor outside of the publisher who I worked with to help me. I worked with one person to help me with the structure of the book.
00:47:50
Speaker
And it was so, so, so helpful. In almost reverse engineering, I want people to understand how to put a career strategy together. So what are the elements of the career strategy and how do I tell a story to bring all that together? And then the editor kind of helped me further develop my stories. I think as someone who I've been logging since 2011, probably,
00:48:14
Speaker
So a very, very long time, when you blog, you're used to 500 words, maybe 900, 500, I know that's how long my cut pieces are, like 500 to 900, maybe. A book is a lot more than that. So when I first wrote the book, I was so used to just making stories quick, I didn't give the whole background. So the editor, developmental editor, really, really helped with that. So when I turned the book into the publisher, I still had edits and things like that, but it wasn't as developmental.
00:48:43
Speaker
Did you seek out those people to support you? Or is that something that the publisher was like, hey, you might want to work with these folks. They're going to be good coaches. I sought it out myself. OK. All right. So you were like, I want to do this. I feel like I'm going to need this. And you, Lenton, found it.
00:48:59
Speaker
I think that everyone's process is different. It also depends on the support that your publisher is giving you. Everyone does it a little bit different. So I think it's important to ask if you're looking to get a book deal, are you working with the editor from the beginning? Do they have you turn in chapter by chapter or do they want the whole manuscript at one time? All of that impacts your writing process. What was your timeline from the time you started to the time you were finished and sent it their way?
00:49:26
Speaker
Oh gosh, I think I signed the deal in April of...
00:49:32
Speaker
2020, I think, April 2020. I struggled, struggled, struggled, wrote, deleted, wrote, deleted, wrote, deleted until this number of time. That's when I hired the book coach to help me get the structure together and put it together. She actually works with people who want to self-publish, but I'm like, a book is a book, help me out. So she helped me put the whole plan together for my book. The first manuscript was due in, I think,
00:50:00
Speaker
September. I asked for a month extension. So October turned it in. They gave it back to me with a few edits, a little bit of feedback. And I gave them the final copy, I think, in January. And the book came out in June 2021. So my writing process was fairly quick. It was less than a year. Wow.
00:50:18
Speaker
less than a year. I think for my next book that I'm working on now, I 100% want at least a year to write. Can you say what it is or is that confidential for right now? Was not out yet. I have two, I want to write, I told myself I want to write three books. So the next one is going to be on leadership.
00:50:35
Speaker
Oh, I'm excited. Well, it's really interesting and helpful. And I guess on the marketing plan bit, it sounds like your publishers are looking for folks who have platforms themselves so that you can kind of guarantee a bit of your own marketing and sales. Is that right?
00:50:55
Speaker
a little bit, but I don't want to say to anyone that you have to have, when we think platform, we think, oh, you have to have 20,000 followers on Instagram. No, you don't need 20,000 followers on Instagram. But how are you going to reach people? If you don't have the reach or community, what are you going to do to get that exposure? Maybe you'll want a publicist, maybe you'll partner with people with larger audiences,
00:51:23
Speaker
is just about how are you going to get that. You don't necessarily have to have it. There's plenty of people who their book gave them the influence and the reach, but they had a plan to get there. That makes sense. That's interesting, I guess, for any marketers listening who have always dreamed about writing a book, that marketing background is helpful there. It can help you. Yes, yes, yes, yes. All right. Well, Kimberly, thank you so much. I feel like you have just
00:51:52
Speaker
Well, actually, no, there's one more question I wanted to ask about. Go for it. So since 2020, there have been obviously a lot more coverage and talk about DEI in the workplace.
Diversity and Inclusion Progress
00:52:03
Speaker
And I wanted to take that. Do you feel like we're seeing progress? Do companies need to do more or less of anything? And how are you feeling about the progress that's being made or not made there?
00:52:19
Speaker
That's a big juicy question. I feel like we are seeing progress. And I think especially because of our Gen Z population right now. Gen Z is not taking no for an answer. They want progress. They want action. I think it's forcing companies to take more action versus kind of sitting on the sidelines and putting out an ERG group and saying, everybody who feels like they like the same thing or they are the same thing, y'all hang out together and make each other feel better. Companies are doing more and going,
00:52:47
Speaker
beyond just having training on unconscious bias and microaggressions and whatnot. So I do think that companies are making some strides. However, I think consistency and getting help with that is really important. It's not a shameless plug to hire a consultant like me, but more of if you don't understand what to do next, you need to hire someone.
00:53:10
Speaker
Diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, whatever order you want to put DEI, DEI be in, IND, we call it so many things. It's a full-time job, and I think for years companies have been selecting people from whatever underrepresented groups they felt were important and had them work together. But what's important is that companies dedicate resources and time to making changes in the companies. I think that's the direction that we're moving into now, and it's exciting. I do think that companies are
00:53:40
Speaker
committed to making a change, but I don't think they understand how to ingrain DEI outside of just people. It's not just your hiring practices and making sure you look around the room and it looks like United Nations. It's about making sure that there is a sense of belonging.
00:53:58
Speaker
for diversity that you can see and not see, but also in how you think about your products, how you market, how you communicate to others. It's DEI should be ingrained in the business to the point where hopefully we won't have to say DEI anymore. It's just how we operate. We're just inclusive.
00:54:16
Speaker
all the time across the business, not just with people. But I think that's still a good ways to come. Yeah. Well, that's a good segue into if people want to reach out to you, what are the best places for them to get in touch or shoot an email or follow you?
00:54:36
Speaker
Perfect. So I'm on all social media as Kimberly Be Online. If you want to learn more about me personally, check out the CUT or my podcast, go to KimberlyBeOnline.com. Or if you're looking for consulting services for your organization,
00:54:51
Speaker
looking to recruit, retain, engage women and people of color, you can go to manifestyourself.com. You can always just shoot me an email at hello at manifestyourself.com and I will get back to you. We will put every single one of those in our show notes so that anyone who wants to reach out and have a conversation with you has a chance to do so. And thank you so much, Kimberly, this was so great to get to talk to you. I'm such a fan of your writing. So thank you so much. Thank you.
00:55:21
Speaker
All right, everyone. Hope you enjoyed our chat with Kimberly. We are going to be coming to you next week with an interview with Amy Odell. And to support the show, you can rate, review, and subscribe. Those things do make a really big difference, and we appreciate it. And that's it, folks. Thanks for listening. If you want to get in touch, you can email us at contentpeople at rafton.com.