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Leagues Cup Post-Group Stage Review
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Since our last episode, the Sounders have completed both Leagues Cup group stage games - and it was a mixed bag to say the least. Despite leaving things late the Sounders looked comfortable against Minnesota United, but it was a different story against Necaxa as a promising start turned into a worst-case scenario of soft goals, little attacking threat, and potentially disastrous injuries.
Aaron and Mark discuss the ups and downs of the games against Minnesota United and Necaxa, what those performances mean in the larger context of the season, how some of the less frequently featured Sounders fared, and the outlook heading into the Round of 32 clash with the Galaxy on Thursday. They also discuss the rapidly approaching close of the transfer window, the Sounders roster spending habits, and the risk of slipping into mid-table mediocrity.
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"Diversions", "Observed without knowing" audio provided by Sounder at Heart subscriber Lars; find more of their music: https://despatchesfromseattle.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to Sounder at Heart Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network.
00:00:11
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Fullpool Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Fullpool was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters. They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, Pacific Northwest.
Celebrating Seattle Sounders' MLS Cup Victory
00:00:36
Speaker
Let's go! A save by Fry! The Seattle Sounders have done it! MLS Cup winners! They've come three years through the middle to crown it for Seattle! And now they truly can't start the celebrations. It's the Sounders' MLS Cup! Michael Adero leads out to the Reno Dump! The Sounders win!
00:01:36
Speaker
This is an awesome.
Guest Introduction: Aaron Campo and Mark Kastner
00:01:42
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Nos Adietas, sponsored by Full Poll Wines and our lovely subscribers. This is our post-League's Cup group stage catch up and we're recording on Monday, August 5th. I'm Aaron Campo filling in for Jeremiah, who is on the road this week and joining me today is our good friend Mark Kastner. Mark, thanks for joining me today. How are you?
00:01:46
Speaker
This is an awesome. This is an awesome. This is an awesome. This is an awesome. This is an awesome. This is an awesome. This is an awesome. This is an awesome. This is an awesome.
Sounders' League's Cup Performance Analysis
00:02:04
Speaker
You know, I was better before I watched The Sounders last night, but, um,
00:02:10
Speaker
overall pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of an evergreen thing. Unfortunately. Yeah. Especially, especially when we're talking about the league's cup, which, uh, you know, I'm sure our listeners to figure it out. I'm not a big fan of, uh, I think it's fair to say you're not a huge fan either, but.
00:02:26
Speaker
It's the Sounders, you know, we've got a job to do. Uh, so let's, let's do it. Uh, the league's cup group stage has come and gone. Uh, it was a bit of a big spec for the Sounders. They looked pretty good and a 2-0 win against Minnesota United in the first leg, but they did leave it quite late and were helped quite a bit by a 65th minute straight.
00:02:43
Speaker
red card to Hasani Datsun for a pretty shocking tackle that injured role Rui Diaz, who was quite frankly, I think pretty lucky that the injury wasn't worse than it appears to have been. But still, the Sounders looked good throughout despite not getting their first goal until the 87th minute and tacking on another right before the final whistle. Minnesota were able to hang around as long as they did in large part thanks to an heroic performance from goalkeeper Dan St. Clair. As far as I'm aware, we don't have an XG for League Cup games.
00:03:12
Speaker
But the Sounders managed 20 shots. They were very much on the front foot all night long. It was a really encouraging performance, I thought, following what was a pretty major letdown against L.A.F.C. in the last MLS match before the break. The Nacaxa game, less encouraging, I think it's fair to say. The Sounders came out of the gate flying. Obed Borg has scored a fantastically taken goal in the eighth minute. I think one of the best pieces of play I've seen from Obed ever, maybe, just a great finish.
00:03:37
Speaker
Looks like the Sounders have doubled their lead less than 10 minutes later when Pedro de la Vega scored a completely outrageous curling shot from about 20 yards out. I had to watch this three or four times to figure out what had happened. I just assumed it had taken a deflection of some kind. But unfortunately, it doesn't matter because it was overturned by the kind of tiki-tak bullshit offside call that makes everyone hate VAR. And that was the end of anything good or positive from the game. Nacaxa leveled in the 25th minute. Pedro de la Vega was pulled due to a groin injury right after the half hour mark.
00:04:07
Speaker
We don't know how severe it is right now, hoping it's just precautionary, but, you know, tough to say. Nacaxa would take the lead right before halftime, and they were completely in control, I think, from then on. Ryan Schmetzer, to his credit, I thought, made some really aggressive substitutions, but it didn't really change that much. The Sounders were just bereft of ideas. Nacaxa was really, really well organized.
00:04:31
Speaker
and they would go on to win the group by adding a third at the end of, right at the start of stoppage time.
Strategic Moves and Advancements in Knockouts
00:04:36
Speaker
Ultimately, it didn't really matter, right? The Sounders did enough against Minnesota United to assure that they'd move on to the knockouts. They're still going to host in the next round. I think the lineup choices to some degree reflected that. This was definitely a rotated squad. The Danny Leyva Obed Vargas central midfield pairing was not one we've seen a lot of.
00:04:58
Speaker
for reasons probably I think are a little more understandable now. Reed Baker Whiting had a rough game defensively I think so.
00:05:07
Speaker
Nacox is a team that loves to counter-attack. They found the opportunities to do that. They scored. It doesn't change anything really for the next round other than the opponent. It wasn't a game of Sounders needed to win. And, you know, even if you're invested in the league's cup, I think it's probably difficult to be too bothered by this result. It's, you know, it's just one of those things, right? You get countered at home. It's a bummer. You move on.
Recurring Patterns: Concerns and Optimism
00:05:32
Speaker
But I think the thing that does concern me is
00:05:36
Speaker
some of the negative patterns that we saw earlier in the season, long passages of just toothless possession, fragility in the base of bad fortune. Those are things that I think we saw in the LAFC game to some extent, and really in this Nacoxie game. And so I just wanted to take your temperature mark on how you're feeling after these two games. Yeah, I think you're...
00:06:02
Speaker
I never really want to get into the conversation of discrediting what people feel and why they feel the way that they feel. I would say if you want to be really upset right now about this team, if you feel like they're uninspiring or boring, they gave you everything
00:06:24
Speaker
in this last game to like, stoke that fire. But also, if you're somebody who wants to kind of cling on to anything for this season, and you know, depending on how you felt after the L.A.F.C. game,
00:06:44
Speaker
It was kind of like, well, we're going to have to wait and see until the next time they play LAFC if the season's going to be anything, which obviously is the semifinal of the Open Cup. You know, they gave you some hope in the Minnesota game where they didn't play great, but.
00:07:01
Speaker
they definitely did enough to win the game. And it just happened to be that those two goals came super late. Right. So it's it's like, there's, there's optimism for the people that want to be optimistic. There's a bunch of stuff to be pessimistic about if you want to be pessimistic. I am at a stage where like, I can't personally be invested in the league's cup. Because it's just like,
Debating the Significance of League's Cup
00:07:29
Speaker
It is like, I feel so disconnected from reality when this thing is happening that I'm just like, I don't blame anybody for anything that happens into it because it doesn't feel real to me, right? But I will say, I think the one thing that I can hold on to and feel pretty bummed out about is, and it might be unfair to make this connection, but
00:07:57
Speaker
Other people have been making it and it's definitely a valid concern people have. Earlier this week, the Sounders raised the ticket prices on season ticket holders because of some weird tax thing that's happening all of a sudden.
Fan Backlash: Ticket Prices and Performances
00:08:12
Speaker
And then the next home game that they play, this stuff happens. And it's just kind of like...
00:08:20
Speaker
There's probably, it's not just this one game, obviously. Like you said, there are themes that happen in this game that we've discussed.
00:08:30
Speaker
Countless times, you know, you and Jeremiah have discussed countless times throughout the season, and it's just a bummer, you know? It's just a bummer to keep talking about the same, like, ooh, this team just doesn't, like, you know, to your point, Smetzer did make aggressive subs, but how many times can he go to that well where he makes one or two subs at halftime? And it's just like,
00:08:57
Speaker
You can't. Keep being the same like you can't keep going to the same tricks you gotta actually get better and they might not be. Actually getting better it's tough to tell so yeah this this to me feels like a team that was really underachieving earlier in the season that gave a lot of people concerns that they were worse than they probably are.
00:09:17
Speaker
Um, but I think it's fair to say at this point that, and this is not obviously based on just then a Cox game or even just the LFC game, just it's the pattern of results. I do not think this team was ever a real favorite to win the West is, as they were sort of pegged by, by a lot of
Playoff Positioning and Elite Challenges
00:09:34
Speaker
folks. Um, I was optimistic about this team. Uh, I think that they just, the upside isn't there with, with the players they have and.
00:09:43
Speaker
There's no ace in the sleeve on the bench. There's no magic bullet that's going to help you win games.
00:09:56
Speaker
What I guess, if you want to be encouraged by anything, it was very obvious, and maybe this can be encouraging if you want it to be, it can be discouraging if you want it to be. It's totally a perception thing. I was encouraged by the fact that Ryan Schmetzer was clearly very, very frustrated by how slow the team was playing.
00:10:15
Speaker
If you compare the first 15 minutes of the game where things were moving very quickly, the balls going side to side quickly, the sounders being progressive, when they turn the ball over, they're pressing, they're wanting the ball back. That is when the sounders play well, is when they're playing like that.
00:10:34
Speaker
After the overturned goal, and especially I think after Nokox's first goal, it was the opposite of that. It's that slow, plodding, methodical style that can be really effective if you have the guys to have it. Unfortunately, the sounders haven't had the kind of prime nico-ledero player that helps that style work since 2021, right?
00:10:55
Speaker
and 2022 partially, I guess. And it's awful to watch when they get stuck in that rut. And I think it is encouraging that it's clear that it's not the way Brian Schmetzer wants the team to be playing. And they've taken positive steps to not play that way anymore, I think, in a lot of games. But it's discouraging that that tendency is still there when they're kind of out of ideas. And that's, I think,
00:11:23
Speaker
it is truly terrible to watch. And unfortunately, it happens most frequently at home because if the defense gets settled, it's what the sounders are gonna end up doing. And that's what happened in this game. As soon as the game was level, the COCs have packed it in. And breaking down a well-organized defense is difficult for any team,
Evaluating Sounders' Cup Chances
00:11:45
Speaker
anywhere in the world to do. I don't care who they are. So I don't think the sounders are unique in that it's difficult to do that.
00:11:52
Speaker
to break those teams down successfully. But I think the way that they tend to go about trying to do it is...
00:12:01
Speaker
pretty miserable to watch. And, you know, it's so it's I don't blame, you know, the crowd seemed really restless to me, like they seemed as annoyed and upset as I've seen as I've heard them before. And I don't blame them, man. If that's how I spent my Sunday night, you know, it was bad enough spending it on the couch watching it. I can't imagine how much of a bummer that would be to, you know, to do it on actually going to the game, traveling to the game if you had to. And then like you said, like,
00:12:30
Speaker
The ticket price thing, I don't want to talk too much about it because every five minutes I hear something new and so I don't want to say something that ends up
Impact of Pedro de la Vega's Injury
00:12:40
Speaker
not being true about it, right? But right now it appears to be that a lot of what the sounders have been telling people
00:12:47
Speaker
is more or less pretty accurate, maybe. But the way they went about communicating it was, I think, horrific. And the sticker shock is still the sticker shock. And, you know, this is the same product that the sounders have been putting out there for
00:13:02
Speaker
a long time. And these guys used to be better than they are now. I mean, that's just that's, that's the reality of it. And I don't blame people for being sick of watching it. We'll get into this a little bit more a little later in the show. But something has got to give that some point in time. I don't know what that is. I really don't. I'm not calling for anybody to be fired or anything like that. It's just we can't keep doing this year after year.
00:13:29
Speaker
Unfortunately, it sounds like it's Pedro de la Vega's groin that's giving. Yeah, that's a hey, you know what? You're a pro, Mark, because that's a great segue, because that's one of the things I wanted to talk about, is Pedro de la Vega coming off injured, the groin injury. Like I said, we don't know how severe. I think the fact that he jogged off, he didn't have ice on it for that long, apparently, that is encouraging. I think that they are just treating him
00:13:57
Speaker
know, they're handling them with kid gloves, which I think is the right thing to do. But it's not good to see. Yeah. And I think like, Spencer said something very interesting and kind of
00:14:12
Speaker
De La Vega's ramp up kind of the last time he was injured, or I guess, I guess that would have been pretty recently, you know, in like June or July, where he was just kind of like doing a media availability and then randomly said, if he gets hurt again, we're going to shut him down for the season. Right. And that was just like, you know, kind of caught everybody off guard. Like, what, how hurt is this guy? You know, and I do think that you got to kind of wonder, like,
00:14:42
Speaker
If he's not going to be able to put it together at this point in this season, you know, I don't want to have the conversation of like, is he a waste of money? Is he a bust?
00:14:53
Speaker
He's just clearly a very good player, but he might just need some time off. And when you hurt two hamstrings and then you're injuring your groin, you kind of probably just need to rest. And I think if you're looking at the season and if it seems like the front office is already kind of riding it off because they're not willing to spend the money
00:15:20
Speaker
to bring in an impact signing this window. They say they're going to try to target somebody, but it's not the big move a lot of people want to see, i.e. shipping out Raoul and probably bringing in another multi-million dollar signing. That's not going to happen.
00:15:41
Speaker
This team is just going to be as good as this team is. And they're probably just this good. This is it. They're a team that's going to finish between, let's say, fourth and seventh in the Western Conference. They have a real decent chance at winning the US Open Cup.
00:16:05
Speaker
And we've, you know, they might be good enough to do something in the playoffs, but it would take a genuine miracle for them to win MLS Cup. Yeah, I mean, I think the Sounders are actually uniquely pretty well set up for the playoffs.
00:16:19
Speaker
or better than I think their seeding would indicate. But I would not feel great about this team's chances of winning a last cup. They have some mid-90s Florida Marlins vibes where they are just built for the playoffs. They have a great defense. They keep the scoring environment low. They're really tough to beat on the road, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. But ultimately, they're going to have to beat an LAFC or a Columbus crew, one of the elite teams. And it's just hard to see them doing that.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah. And of course, like something like that could happen. And they are like, I agree with you. They are kind of perfectly made for a knockout tournament, which is why I guess I'm a little bit bummed League's Cup has gone the way that it's gone, because it's like, hey, this is a tournament. You I don't think I would feel any differently about this season if they won League's Cup. You know, they very well could still do that, you know.
00:17:19
Speaker
Um, I personally wouldn't care, but that's literally a trophy that they would get. And they would be able to put into a trophy cabinet. And it's a story that the team could tell. Yeah. Right. Champions League too. You get champions like, well, yeah, that's true. Even though on, on the, um, on the call, they said you get a club World Cup birth, but I don't think that that's true. Is it what they, the sounders already have one of those. It doesn't matter. Um, yeah. I mean.
00:17:52
Speaker
It's going to be middle of August before we still don't know the Sounders best team this season, mostly because the one guy that they spent money on in the last three years got hurt. That's not his fault. It's also not the training staff's fault. It's not the coaching staff's fault. It is very, very, very poor roster planning.
00:18:18
Speaker
on at an organizational level, it's not just one person's fault.
Managing Team Dynamics: Craig Weibull's Challenges
00:18:23
Speaker
You know, Craig Weibel, everybody's like upset about what he's doing or not doing. And it's like, there's such there's so clearly a problem with like, communication and planning within the organization at this point. Yeah, that how can you like just say like, Oh, the GM's not doing his job.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, I'm with you on that 100%. I'm not going to go to bat for Craig Weibull and say that he's a great GM who's being held back. I don't know. And that's my position and has been. He has, I think the fact that he was highly recommended by Garth Loggerway speaks to his abilities and
00:19:02
Speaker
You know, he's clearly a smart guy. I think that Pedro de la Vega is the kind of signing I want the sounders making most of his moves that he has had the opportunity to make. I don't really have huge problems with the Danny Masovsky signing right I think is a great example of
00:19:21
Speaker
unrealistic expectations because a lot of people are really upset with that signing. They think he's been a huge bust. He's a veteran forward with a decent MLS track record making under $400,000. This is the kind of player you get for that. I don't have any problems with that signing. The Hey Bears signing, I think, was
00:19:42
Speaker
The result wasn't good, but I have no problem with the process. He had an established MLS track record of being a good player, and he got to Seattle and forgot how to finish. Can't really blame Craig Webbell for that. The only thing I really think I would hold against them is giving the extension to Zavi, but also I don't really know what they would have done with that money in the offseason either.
00:20:09
Speaker
So yeah, maybe he is a bad GM, but I just don't think we have any way of really knowing because he's not being given the ability to make the kind of big moves. Getting ahead of ourselves because we will talk about this in more depth later, but yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I think this team's ceiling is pretty well established.
Defensive Critique: Reed Baker Whiting
00:20:32
Speaker
As is the floor, they're not a bad team, and they're not that good of a team either. And I think that they have specific weaknesses that Nacoxa exposed. Speaking of specific weaknesses, I would like to talk about Reed Baker Whiting and his performance at Leftback for the first half of this game.
00:20:53
Speaker
and just generally this season. I like Reed Baker Whiting a lot. He clearly has an upside. He clearly has some bordering on elite skills. But his defense has been a problem, a pretty big problem. You and I do not necessarily agree on New Who, but I think that
00:21:16
Speaker
We both agree we would rather have a left back like Reed Baker Whiting. But you have to play a little bit of defense. And that's just been a big problem for Reed so far. Do you have concerns on his ability to develop in this position longer term? Do you think he needs to move up a line? Do you think that playing on the right would be better suited to his style of play and his footedness, I guess? Just some general thoughts on that. Yeah. Excuse me.
00:21:46
Speaker
I do think it's like probably as weak as position of the like four or five he could play. And it's a little annoying that he's constantly put in this position when there are other things you could do with this current roster that could put him and other players into
00:22:13
Speaker
positions to succeed instead of just like hoping he figures it out. I agree. This wasn't a great game.
00:22:24
Speaker
He's had other poor performances at left back. Uh, the Kansas city game. Um, you know, I thought actually, it was actually pretty good when he played right back against LAFC. Um, even though that game, there was nothing really a whole, wasn't a whole lot of good that came from that game, but, um, and then I think he's looked the best this season when he's.
00:22:48
Speaker
playing as a winger with a more defensive fullback behind him as kind of like a left or right sided wingback, basically.
00:23:00
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, it's a pathway into the team, right? And there's countless examples of players like this in the history of soccer that have played out of position, have kind of come in, stepped into a position because that's where the available game time is. And they just made the best of it, right?
00:23:22
Speaker
I think he is making the best of it. I just don't think the best is very good. Right. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, he like it. And it should be said, like, it's not like the sounders got better defensively when he subbed off the field. Like, yeah, true. Like, knew who was fine. I'm not going to turn this like, I'm not going to really talk about it. But it's like, look at the goal they conceded, the third goal they conceded.
00:23:52
Speaker
And it's, there's just like a prop, like they're not a bad defensive team, but they just make like really stupid defensive mistakes. Like I would say the, you know, the second and third goal shouldn't happen for a good defensive team. The first goal you just kind of can be like, well, whatever. Okay. But yeah. And it's just, it's just kind of like.
00:24:18
Speaker
a young player like Reed needs a platform to be able to perform on. And I feel like the platform given to him is like very rickety and like dangerous. And the reason why you want Reed Baker Whiting to be playing left back is because of his
00:24:37
Speaker
really is like fearlessness, but he's he's so young and so raw that he's going to be taking risks that he shouldn't, you know, an older player more kind of experienced player wouldn't make and you just got to kind of cop for that right for a young kid.
00:24:56
Speaker
But because of the way that the structure is, it's just like he takes those risks. And it's like a it's just a problem that happens over and over and over and over again. Yeah, I think and I actually think this is I understand why the team wants him to be a left back, right? He's if you can have a young attack minded left back that
00:25:22
Speaker
You know, has his skillset and he can stick at that position. That's a hugely valuable player, both to the team now and on the market. Right. So I get wanting him to wanting to see if he can figure that out. And I think this is the right kind of game for that. Right. You've already advanced to the next round, more or less, unless you get totally boat raced. Um.
00:25:42
Speaker
And you're doing some rotation. And I think, too, to be fair, to read, his errors kind of stood out. But I thought that the midfield was a horror show all night and he was put in some bad positions as well. I do think it is a little strange, like you said, that he's getting all this time at left back where he does seem to struggle, where we have an established starter that
00:26:09
Speaker
Brian clearly likes pretty well, who I think the new who Reed Baker Whiting left side has looked really good when we've seen it. I think that they suit each other really well, their strengths complement one another, their weaknesses are sort of offset by the other strengths.
00:26:27
Speaker
So I'd love to see that left side and I'd love to see Reed at the right back spot more frequently because I think that the way the sounders are set up to play his skill set is more well suited to that side of the field. So yeah, but I do think maybe we have enough information now about him at left back.
Goalkeeping Future: Andrew Thomas' Performance
00:26:47
Speaker
to know that maybe that's not going to be his future. But I think he does have a very bright future. I'm still very high on Reed. So I also wanted to get your thoughts on Andrew Thomas. Obviously, we saw him a lot earlier in the year when Steph Rye was hurt. We've seen him in the Open Cup.
00:27:05
Speaker
Um, but this is the first time we've seen him against top level competition since pretty early in the season. And, uh, I think it's been kind of a mixed bag. I'm still very high on Andrew Thomas as well. Um, but I was really hoping he would give us something to think about, um, maybe not this year, but going into next year. And I don't know that he's done that. I don't know that he did them these games, but wanted to get your thoughts on that.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think probably wants to do better on the first goal. Yeah, he gets a hand on it. And it just kind of like bounces off of his wrist and the goal. I was. And I was both encouraged and discouraged by his actions on the second goal. Because that's a situation where my biggest criticism of Stephen Fry comes into play, where Fry just kind of like
00:27:59
Speaker
decides where he's gonna stand and never moves. Yeah, you know, similar to similar to his red card against DC that got rescinded like he just like picks a spot he just stands there. Yeah, whereas like Thomas on that like actually came out off of his line and then was like, Oh, this was a bad idea. So like, I guess
00:28:21
Speaker
while I would like to see him do better on that goal, I guess I have to just kind of be like, well, that's the other side of the coin. That's true. And you just
00:28:34
Speaker
you know, for like the last basically 10 years, we haven't had a goalkeeper make that kind of mistake because Stephen Fry just doesn't do stuff like that. Right. Which I think we should all appreciate. Especially those of us who have at times maybe said it's time for Fry to graduate into maybe not the starting goalkeeper role. But yeah, I mean, I
00:29:03
Speaker
Yeah, I just don't think he played a very good game, unfortunately. And that's just kind of the life of a backup goalkeeper that you're hopeful ends up becoming the starter is at some point eventually. Yeah.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah, it was not a good performance. I will say I thought his distribution was pretty good, which has been a weak spot. Yep, pretty cool. Especially when the sounders are down, he was so quick to get the ball out and into transitional situations, which
00:29:45
Speaker
I think kind of caught the players off guard because they're just not used to that. And they didn't really know what to do in those situations. But we kind of already talked about it was kind of a dud of a performance anyways. So yeah, I think that to me, he is still very clearly the guy for the future, barring some kind of weird, unprecedented collapse.
00:30:08
Speaker
I love his game, I love his skill set. What I'm hoping for is next year, he gets some more opportunities as a rotational player. I know coaches do not like to rotate goalkeepers outside of competitions, and I totally understand why, but I think giving him some midweek games in MLS, just getting him some more reps where
00:30:30
Speaker
you know, Stephen Fry's deals up after next year. I'm at this point totally comfortable with him going into next year as the starter, but I don't want the transition to be too rough. I want Andrew Thomas to get some more reps, especially in league play next year and not all, you know, front loaded or whatever due to injury. And so that's kind of what I'm hoping for. And if there's a benefit to staying in league cup, it's that he gets a few more games, I think.
00:30:59
Speaker
Yeah, and who knows? We don't know what's going to happen in the Open Cup yet. I would hope that he is given the opportunity to play the semi-final in the final if the Sounders advance that far. And who knows? Maybe some sort of heroics or just general good play. It doesn't even have to be heroics happening.
00:31:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's going to be disappointing to me if, uh, if he's not starting against LAFC, I think, um, and then, you know, hopefully God willing in the final, because I think if you're going to tell a guy, Hey, you've got this cup. Thank you for listening to the sound rit heart podcast network, which now includes no sunny at this lobbing scorchers and the cooler yield. We've been independent since August of 2023.
00:31:48
Speaker
but need your support to make sure it continues. Although this podcast is free, it's only made possible by your continued support. Memberships start as low as $25 a year, which not only helps make podcasts like this one happen, but also gets you access to everything we produce.
00:32:04
Speaker
If you're able to support us at higher levels, starting at $75 a year, you gain access to a host of other perks, most notably entry into our Members Only Discord, where the smartest, funniest, and most engaged commenters share their thoughts and ideas. To find out more, just visit soundrathart.com and click the subscribe button in the top right corner. Thanks for listening. They've got to have the whole thing. Like they've got to have the opportunity to win or lose in. And I think, um,
00:32:35
Speaker
you know, Ziggy was pretty good about that. I don't think he ever went back to the starter, if you had promised the backup. It's a, you know, so hopefully Schmetz has a similar perspective. Anything else that you feel like we learned from these games? Yeah, I feel like we can't have a midfield without either Christian Roldan or Jel Paulo starting. Yeah. I was like pretty excited about,
00:33:06
Speaker
the possibilities of what this midfield partnership could have shown with Danny Leyva and Obed Vargas. And in the 15 minutes when we thought the Sounders were going to score five, they looked great. And then like, I don't know if like the Monstars stole their power or something during that VAR review that lasted an hour. But they just like,
00:33:35
Speaker
There wasn't enough experience between the two of them to know who needs the step, who needs the drop back. There just wasn't chemistry there. And it really showed, unfortunately. And I think, at least for the remainder of the year, with
00:33:54
Speaker
you know, whatever happens, I think you got to figure out a way to either have Ciao Paolo playing, starting, and then if that can't happen, Christian Roldan has to be there, just to kind of provide the, just the important base. Yeah.
00:34:15
Speaker
So yeah, I think if that's like the most like reasonable and calmest thing I can say I learned. Yeah. I think that was my big takeaway too, is that, and maybe I'll go a step further and say that for me right now, I think the highest priority for the future, not necessarily the signing I would make tomorrow if I could, you know, wave a magic wand and make a signing, but I think the thing they have to figure out before they figure out anything else is
00:34:42
Speaker
as well as replacement because he's had some really good games this year. He's had some really bad games this year. I don't think I would feel comfortable going into the next season with him in that role. And I think that this team has to have a six, some kind of defensive midfielder. I would love for that eventually to be Joss Atencio. I think he has the tools. I do not think he's there yet. And I think it's going to take like
00:35:12
Speaker
I think it's going to take a purposeful transition for him to get there. And I think having a guy that he can learn from a couple of years come in at either a TAM or DP level would be a good way to facilitate that. So I think that was my big takeaway. Yeah, and to the attention point, I just don't see a midfield partnership of him and Obed Vargas working together. No.
00:35:41
Speaker
They're very similar players. Yeah. And I think they're both very talented players and they both have played their best when they've been partnered with Jalpaolo. Yeah. And they both played their worst when they played together. Yeah. You know, there's some John Madden level analysis for you guys. But I think if, you know,
00:36:09
Speaker
if we're going to be proactive about this roster, you got to start wondering, like, can they cash in any amount on Obed Vargas? Yeah. And then have a plan around like, okay, Jau Paulo can be here for one more year as kind of a spot starter, and then we can bring in a partner for Jau Paulo, or excuse me, Josh Atencio. Yeah. But
00:36:35
Speaker
Who knows if that is the case. Last night was really the gamut of the Obed Vargas experience. He had some great attacking play. Loved his goal. The kind of stuff I've really been wanting to see from him.
00:36:52
Speaker
And just some really horrendous giveaways. Maybe most glaringly that one towards the end of the game, he did get put in kind of a hospital ball situation there, so I don't want to be too harsh on him, but just a really bad decision to. I would say passing to the opposition in your own 18 is never, never good, so.
00:37:10
Speaker
It's not what you want. Not what you want, but, you know, he's he's a kid, right? He's 18. It's going to happen sometimes 19 today. Oh, that's right. Today is his birthday. So happy birthday. Happy birthday. Yeah, I do think.
00:37:25
Speaker
I think there's a world where Obed and Atencio are a great pairing if the sounders make a move to playing not playing without a 10 and then you put a just real destroyer type six behind them and let them you know press like crazy and I think that could look good but I'm not
00:37:45
Speaker
I don't think that's where the Sounders are going with things. I would, I would guess so. And I do think, Oh, that's probably, you know, going to be not going to be around too much past this season. So, uh, galaxy error up on Thursday. I don't have anything to say about that. Um, you know, we'll see galaxy are a good team. Uh, the Sounders have hung with them pretty well this season, although I think they've, they've got a one point from the two games they played, I believe. Um,
00:38:13
Speaker
Yeah, so we'll see. If we're going to be in this thing, I guess I'd kind of like to stay in it, just so Andy Thomas can get some more reps. We can maybe do a little more experimentation with the lineups, but I'm also not going to be heartbroken if they get bounced.
00:38:30
Speaker
Any thoughts on the Galaxy Merc? I think they're really good, unfortunately. They're a good team. It's a bummer. Yeah. They've spent a lot of money. They have. And not just on this current version of this roster, but let's say in the last five or six years, they've spent a lot of money on guys. And it finally stuck.
00:38:57
Speaker
They found 3DPs that are like legit and mentally great. So that's a bummer. I'm weirdly, this sounds crazy to say, but I'm weirdly kind of encouraged by the galaxy's resurgence because
00:39:11
Speaker
The Galaxy had that period where they were a dominant force in MLS. The Sounders never reached quite the same heights in terms of MLS cups and all that, but I think they reached a higher high in winning the Champions League and they were kind of seen as the standard bearer the same way the Galaxy were.
00:39:28
Speaker
And then the galaxy fell off the face of the Earth for a while. And I think a lot of people predicted that they were going to become DC United, right, like a team that used to be great. And and now they have, you know, competition and
00:39:42
Speaker
And they're just going to be middling team. And so the fact that they have managed to avoid that is in its own way kind of encouraging. It's also kind of a bummer because I hate the galaxy and I don't want Western Conference opposition to be good. But it is proof that you can get back there, right? Unfortunately, you have to spend money to do that.
00:40:03
Speaker
Yeah, that is a good point when you spend close to $20 million on two guys. Right, right. It turns out that you can get some pretty good quality there, which I don't know who needs to hear that information. Well, I've actually been told reliably that transfer fees don't actually help you at all and that it's not smart to do. Well, yeah.
00:40:30
Speaker
Hey, I don't know who out there thinks that, but I would say maybe some of your internal bias need to be reevaluated and modernized. Again, I don't know who thinks that. If you are somebody that does think that, maybe consider doing some evaluation there.
00:40:56
Speaker
Another great segue, actually, because while we're here, we might as well talk about the transfer window. It's been open for over two weeks. It'll be closing in a little over a week. I'm guessing this episode will probably come out on Wednesday, so a week from today, if that is the case. If not, you know how to do math. You can figure out how many days it is. There was a lot of smoke and apparently at least a little bit of fire around Dinamo Zagreb-Wunder, Darius Bikic,
00:41:21
Speaker
But sounders were reportedly unable to meet its salary demands, and I think that that really illustrates how difficult it is for Craig Weibull to thread the needle on making an impact move in this window. There's a finite amount of cap space that the sounders have to work with, fitting that kind of player into that cap space, especially if they have a transfer fee associated with the move, which
00:41:41
Speaker
They're probably going to. Free agents also require signing on fees and all that kind of stuff. So it's tricky. It's very tricky. It's not an insignificant amount of cap space, but it's also not a ton of cap space, right? There's a very narrow window that they've got. And the only plausible way that they can get more is either, well, I was going to say by using a buyout, but that's not plausible. They're not going to do that.
00:42:05
Speaker
Um, and, uh, so the only plausible way is to move a player that has value and that's going to offset some of the positives of adding a new guy. You know, if you, let's say you trade Nathan and, and, uh, open up some cap space that way, maybe get some gamback or something like that. Now your defensive depth is worse, right? So there are options to do that. And maybe that trade-off is worth it, but it's not as nice as just going out and signing a guy.
Need for Fresh Talent to Maintain Interest
00:42:32
Speaker
We've talked a fair amount on the show and of course Jeremiah had a really great piece about this a few weeks back on the subject. Nothing has changed for me. The Sounders have been a much better team over the past few months. They're still a slightly above average team, I think. They have some real weaknesses.
00:42:48
Speaker
And things are just stale with the team. The core has been the core for quite a while. And I like the core of the team, but I need some new guys to keep things interesting. I think the fans do as well. The rest of the fans do as well. Attendance is getting bad. Like we talked about the crowd last night was, I think, pretty vocally unhappy.
00:43:10
Speaker
Uh, the thought of not doing anything, at least a little bit ambitious in this window is completely baffling to me. But at this point, that seems how things are headed. Um, there's just not that much time left and we haven't really heard anything. Rumor wise, um, since the, the Dario speakage, uh, rumor was sort of put to bed. How are you feeling about it, Mark? Uh,
00:43:34
Speaker
I felt so much dread when I saw Freddie Montero tweet a video of him playing on a vintage TV and then an emoji that said soon or back soon or something like that.
00:43:51
Speaker
I think signing nobody would be better than that. So that's how I feel. Yeah. I don't know what that meant. I'm I don't have the emotional intelligence to want to figure that out. But transfer windows are are a funny thing. Like, because fans talk about them as like a present.
00:44:14
Speaker
The players are currently added to the roster in these windows.
00:44:22
Speaker
The actual reality is these things happen months ago, or they should be happening that months ago, there should be plans in place, there should be your top, you know, five targets or three targets or, you know, you can contact agents in teams and stuff outside of transfer windows and figure out what a possibility is. Yeah.
00:44:47
Speaker
And the way that the sounders are behaving right now is a very 2012 way of handling a transfer window and it sucks. They're going out and seeing who's available in this moment and they're having salary conversations with players.
00:45:05
Speaker
And that is such a bad way, excuse me, that is not a way I approve of. And I understand that there are current constraints around this roster that the specifics of which neither you and I are privy to because that information is not released to the public. However, I think to identify and name yourself
00:45:32
Speaker
as an organization, two targets that you have failed to get without actually saying like, here's the one we actually are getting. Yeah, like Garth was a master at this, right? He would, he would get a player in and be like, yeah, well, we, you know, tried.
00:45:49
Speaker
We tried A and B and we ended up on C, but C is like a really great player and they would go on and either be good or they wouldn't be good, whatever. But Garth had like a really great way of communicating those things. At the beginning of the summer, I felt like pretty optimistic that they would buy out Raoul and do something. I think I even said that that was gonna happen.
00:46:15
Speaker
And I was wrong. I, you know, I, I thought they would come into this summer, especially with like how the spring went with like a statement. And the statement they've made is basically like the fans have unreal expectations or unrealistic expectations to have a winning soccer team. Yeah. Um.
00:46:39
Speaker
And it feels a lot like kind of getting scolded as a spoiled child, which I think is really bad. And I'm not happy with anything that has happened so far. And I don't care if they sign somebody anymore, because I don't think the player that they're going to sign can realistically be good.
00:47:02
Speaker
The free agents that are available now are theoretically free agents that no European team wanted because European leagues are starting now, or they're well into their pre-seasons now. A player that is available for sale from a European team right now is, again, not very good and not a meaningful addition to the squad, at least in a holistic sense.
00:47:30
Speaker
Just don't waste my time. I don't want to get to know somebody that's not really gonna move the needle.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's unfortunate kind of that the window ends when it does because there's always that period right at the end of the European window where teams get all their stuff in place and they say, okay, we've got all these guys that we want to ship out. And you can get some good players, you can get some good value for money during that portion, but the MLS window is closed.
Transfer Window Challenges
00:47:59
Speaker
And so those options aren't there. And yeah, I think that if
00:48:03
Speaker
If you want to be a team that is only going to pay transfer fees in very rare cases and you want to build the bulk of your roster signing free agents, that's great. You have to go sign the free agents, right? And also, when you're signing a free agent, unless you're signing a guy who sucks and nobody wants,
00:48:26
Speaker
the agent of that free agent knows for a fact that you would normally be paying a transfer fee. And so they're going to get a bigger signing on fee, the wages are going to be higher. So it's not like you're going out and signing a guy for exactly what their last contract was, right? Like you're, you're paying agencies, you're paying signing on fees, you're paying bonuses, you're paying a higher inflated wage.
00:48:46
Speaker
And you can still get good value for your money doing it that way. But this idea that paying transfer fees is this huge waste of money because you don't have to do it if you sign free agents, I think is a little silly. It's a very dated way of evaluating this stuff.
00:49:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think the days of when you're going to say, tomorrow, Rosala is, hey, do you want to come train with us? And we'll see if you stick. And then he ends up being your MVP. That doesn't happen anymore. That hasn't been the case in MLS for a while. Yeah, LFC struck gold with Kaikomara. But they're also LFC. He's getting great service. And he's there as a placeholder, right? It's just very rare that it moves like that hit.
00:49:30
Speaker
I'm very much on the team that transfer fees, the amount of transfer fees that you pay in transfer fees does not correlate to winning. I think that's impossible to ignore. You can spend transfer fees badly. You can spend a ton of money on transfer fees without it turning into results. But as Jeremiah has said a lot, I think you have to spend something.
00:49:54
Speaker
like you can't just go bargain bent hunting and expect to win. And yeah, it's, you know, it sucks, man. I'm hoping that that maybe the organizational thinking on this changes. I think coming to the realization that not wanting to use a buyout wasn't really a respect thing, which is kind of how I understood it for a while that it was like, hey, we don't treat our guys like that. But I know we just don't want to do it.
00:50:23
Speaker
That was really kind of a turning point with how I felt about the situation. Because even if I think we don't want to disrespect our club legends by doing that, even if I think maybe that's misguided in some ways, it's admirable. But if it's like, no, we just don't want to do it. We just don't want to pay him to go away. That's a different thing. So yeah, I'm hoping they reevaluate some of the stuff in the offseason.
00:50:52
Speaker
Yeah. And I, they can reevaluate it now. So it can be. Yeah. I hope they reevaluate some of this stuff in time for the off season. You're right. That's a much better, that's a much better approach. Yeah. And it's, and it's not like Raoul would have felt disrespected because he would get to go somewhere that he could theoretically start. And also I don't think Raoul needs a lot of help to feel disrespected.
00:51:20
Speaker
No. And yeah, to that point, he already feels disrespected. Whether that's right or wrong. I can't possibly be the judge on that. But like, all right, so I've been for two years now, I've been this proponent of this idea that Garth did
00:51:46
Speaker
things with the roster to position the roster to win CONCACAF Champions League and that there would be residual effects to that. And I know everybody is exhausted of hearing that talking point. However, he did that with the plan to get the team out of that situation.
00:52:09
Speaker
And right before the off season where theoretically that plan would have started, he left. Yeah. So, and I doubt he left the blueprint behind. Um, cause that would be crazy because you're going to a competitor in the same league. Um, and I, like, I have a lot of sympathy for Craig Weibel in the sense that he came into like.
00:52:35
Speaker
like an escape room and he has to find his way out of it. But and then I also am sympathetic to the fact that the conditions have probably changed clearly with the way that the ownership is talking about spending on the roster. But
00:52:51
Speaker
I don't care whose fault it is at this point. It's the same team for like four years. And if you look at everybody else in MOS, everybody else, including San Jose, who is very bad right now.
00:53:07
Speaker
This isn't a conversation for transfers just for transfer's sake. It's like you gotta try to do something to try to do something, you know? And not doing something is a choice and it is the worst choice in this situation.
Stagnation and Lack of Ambition
00:53:25
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that I don't necessarily blame anyone for the way this season has gone and for the signings they made and the decisions they made because I do think there were a lot of reasons to think this team would be better than they are.
00:53:36
Speaker
the daily vague injuries obviously have hurt things a lot. What I'm frustrated by is that the response to it has not been different. And that doesn't necessarily mean they have to blow everything up mid-season and go out and do something crazy. It's just the way they've been talking about things, some of the rumblings we've heard about transfer budgets and things like that.
00:54:01
Speaker
I just don't understand how you can look at this and think, yeah, we'll be able to figure this out without some serious investment. And I don't think, like, there are a lot of things about the core of this team that I like, right? Like, Jordan Morris, Christian Roldan, Jackson Reagan, all guys that are going to be useful, you know, good players for the next few years. Like, you can build a championship team around those guys within a window of a few years.
00:54:30
Speaker
But it can't just be those guys. It can't just be those guys in Rusnak. And like you have to have a difference maker or two. And because I really do think that that's what like this team is not that far away from being great. It's just they don't have that top end. I think if this team still has 2019 Raul Rídías, they're probably in the hunt, right? But they just they don't they don't have a guy that can take over games.
00:54:56
Speaker
uh and they don't you know if they don't seem willing to to go get them at this stage so and something that can happen when you're not constantly like adding to a team
00:55:12
Speaker
is players can get worse. Yeah. You know, we've had conversations about new who this season, Yaymar, Alex Rodin, Christian Rodin, Jordan Morris, Raul Uruy Diaz, Albert Rusknek, Jow Paulo, Leo Chu, Stefan Frat, like every man on this roster, there's been a conversation about like, maybe they're not as good as they were.
00:55:36
Speaker
And that's why you need to constantly kind of be refreshing the locker room, basically, for lack of a better term, because a new player can come in in a position and ignite. Like, for instance, if we had like a comparable right back, right, or left back, for that matter, that wasn't just a kid, like Alex Rodin could theoretically
00:56:07
Speaker
take on that challenge and be like, I need to get better to keep my starting job. Yeah. Every, like pretty much every position on the field, you know exactly who would be starting if it was like a quote unquote MLS cut final. And it's just kind of like, yeah, you probably have a conversation about every single one of those players. And there may be, let's say five to 15, 20% worse than they were last season. Yeah. And it's just kind of like,
00:56:33
Speaker
Well, there's nobody coming over their shoulder to challenge them to get better. And then on the flip side, you're not giving any of these players new ideas or new players to work with. Like we had the conversation about read a new who earlier.
00:56:52
Speaker
There are different combinations of different players when you add players via transfers that unlock certain skill sets in players that you didn't know existed before. And they're just continually, like, I've grown very sympathetic to Brian Spencer this season because, like, it's the same players, it's the same ideas, and he just has to, like, make it work.
00:57:23
Speaker
It is working kind of. Yeah. And I think he is trying to do different things. I think he is trying to set the team up differently and trying to encourage him to play in different ways. But, you know, it's they've been together playing a certain way for so long that it's going to be tricky to do that. And I think to your point,
00:57:39
Speaker
I don't think it's any accident that after Alex Roldon got hurt, Christian moved to right back and was playing really well there, that when Alex came back and he got a chance to start again, he has been a better player. I don't think it's any accident that Raul Rui-Diaz coming in off the bench when he's pissed off about losing his starting job looks like a different player. I don't think it's any accident that when Jordan Morris gets the opportunity to move back to the nine where he wanted to be, and he has something to prove that he looks like a different player. I do think that these guys need things to motivate them
00:58:09
Speaker
and whether that's roster turnover, internal competition, whatever it is, I think you're right that they've got to have some more of that and they're just not getting it right now. Yeah. This is the type of situation that can compound on itself. You go one window without doing anything,
00:58:36
Speaker
that sets a certain tone and then two or three more windows after that. It's a thing that can get exponentially worse. We just talked about the Galaxy. They experienced this too, although they never went two or three transfer windows. The sounders have this where they just compounded the issue more and more and more. That's my worry, is that this eventually,
00:59:05
Speaker
they just kind of fade into this obscurity of like just being an okay team, you know, like just kind of being like a, like,
00:59:16
Speaker
I don't even know what the example would be like Houston or something. I don't know. Yeah, that fade into mediocrity where you can, you know, get hot one year and make a run and look like a good team. But generally, you're just kind of there and you're not bad. That's so much worse than just being bad because
00:59:36
Speaker
Being bad either it encourages it, it forces you to put up or shut up as an owner, as a GM, as a coach or whatever, right? To say, look, this team sucks and this isn't tenable. We can't keep doing this. Something has to change or to say, eh, we're just going to be shitty and people can check out, you know? Um, now obviously nobody wants that, but still at least you, at least you have a decision to make, right? Um, whereas when you're mediocre and occasionally good for long stretches of time, it's just like becomes part of the background and
01:00:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's the worst, it's the worst thing to be boring and, and, you know, the New York Red
Risk of Mediocrity without Change
01:00:13
Speaker
Bulls. Yeah. Yeah. You may make the playoffs 16 years in a row or whatever, but right. What the last meaningful, memorable thing you did, the two most important players from that team are on MLS 360 now. It's like, yeah. What? And I.
01:00:34
Speaker
feel like that that's where the sounders are headed and less like some very significant recalculations happen with the way that they do things. Yeah, that is a bummer of a note to end it on. But I think it's a good note to end it on. Thank you, Mark, for joining me. Sorry that this was kind of a bummer of an episode. But you know, we're used to it at this point. Want to thank our listeners, our subscribers, and of course, full poll wines for their
01:01:01
Speaker
Wonderful support. Jeremiah should be back next week. Hopefully, we'll have something a little more fun to talk about, maybe a signing, maybe a one over the galaxy. Maybe not. We'll see. But thanks for listening, as always. I'm Aaron Campo signing off for Mark and for Lickit, and we will catch you next time.
01:02:17
Speaker
We love you. Let's win another one!