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E235: Mary and Susie Reker
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Labor Day of 1974 should have been an exciting one for the Reker family. They had just celebrated a family reunion the day before and the holiday was spent with family at home as well as in the preparation of going back to school the next day. It was for the purpose of buying additional items for school that 15-year-old Mary Reker (with younger sister, 12-year-old Susie tagging along) went shopping. It was a trip from which the sisters would never return.
If you have any information concerning Mary and Susie Reker, details about Labor Day 1974 or the days leading to it, or information concerning any of the theories, email your your information to [email protected] or call either the Stearns County Sheriff's Office at 320-251-4240 or the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension Cold Case Unit at 877-996-6222.
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Transcript
Poetry as a Tool for Grief
00:00:00
Speaker
I often read poetry about grief, mostly because it's one of the only ways that grief and loss become manageable for many. By putting it into words whose lull and weight we can control as they come through our mouth. We measure the breath. We decide the tone. Volume is in our control, while so many parts of our world are not.
Exploring Grief through Poetry
00:00:28
Speaker
When researching this case, I thought very much about grief and about one poem in particular by Sarah Rien. She writes, there's no way it could all fit into an urn or into a box. Could it?
Case Introduction: Raker Family Tragedy
00:00:44
Speaker
All of that love, their past, their future, every adored thing, the galaxy itself isn't big enough.
00:00:56
Speaker
There's just no way it could all fit. It made me think about the enormity of memory and all its vivid detail and of hopes for the future that can't be fulfilled, both of equal measure. Our poet is right. That is grief. And it does defy containment.
Podcast Focus: Cold Cases and Public Involvement
00:01:19
Speaker
And it's a grief felt doubly so by the family at the center of our case this week, who lost not one child, but two. This is the case of sisters, Mary and Susie Raker.
Mary Raker's Life and Changes
00:02:08
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:02:45
Speaker
Maggie, you know, as I do, that the earmark for the end of summer, in our minds as teachers, is when the school year starts back. I'm already having, like, the back to school nightmares. Oh, I forgot to make copies on the first day. Oh, no. The copier is broken. Yeah. Yes. Well, on Labor Day, September 2nd of 1974 in St. Cloud, Minnesota, 15-year-old Mary Raker was about to do just that. She attended an all-girls high school out of town, and they were to start back to school the next day.
00:03:23
Speaker
She was getting everything together that she would need before she was to ride with another friend and that friend's family on the 45-minute drive to St. Francis High School in Little Falls that afternoon where Mary would be a sophomore. Mary had actually spent quite a bit of her time that summer with her grandparents. Those were the days. Yes. Who lived in the nearby town of Luxembourg.
Mary's Preparedness and Disappearance
00:03:50
Speaker
And Mary's parents, they could see some changes in Mary. Though from my personal experience with my own 15 year old, I think
00:04:01
Speaker
that some of those changes are normal. There really is a marked move from child to young adult, I think from ages 13, really to 15, morphing into someone who is developing their own boundaries and beliefs, starting to question standards, testing out independence, all of those changes were happening for Mary. I think it can be hard for parents to come to grips with that. I know like my mother-in-law always says about Anthony. She put him to bed at 12, and then when he woke up at 13, she was like, who is this human that I have in my house? Yeah.
00:04:46
Speaker
and so i think it's Kind of hard for parents when kids start to change into a young adult instead of that child. But, I mean, we see that as teachers or I, especially yeah being at so many different levels, there's the growth that they have. ah Think about the difference between, say, eighth grade year and sophomore year. Yeah, nuts. Mary's parents worried, I think as we all do, like you said, if the changes were normal teenage ones or if there was something deeper going on with Mary. Her mother told a reporter from CBS News, quote, I knew something wasn't right, but she wasn't saying what it was, end quote.
00:05:28
Speaker
Despite any growing pains or concerns, the family had actually spent a wonderful day on September 1st at a family reunion. The majority of the supplies had actually already been purchased for Mary to start school because it sounds like they were like me and I'm a I'm prepared. Oh, I love purchasing school supplies and packing. I would love to pack my backpack, like make sure everything was where it needed to be and orderly. Yes. and Label your folders, have all your pins. In fact, it does sound like Mary's mother Rita believed at least that she had purchased everything that Mary needed already. And this last day before Mary was to go up to school,
00:06:14
Speaker
Rita actually was expecting that Mary would be helping a little bit around the house before making that drive. And it was likely a bit frustrating when Mary bounded into the room and insisted that she needed to go back to the department store, Zayers, to not only pick out a winter coat, but also to get a few more school supplies she's before labor. She's prepared. Yeah. She wants to be prepared. She just wants the extra. The shopping center where Zayers was located at 33rd Avenue and Division Street was about a mile walk from the Raker home. While Mary was only one of the Raker's six children,
00:06:56
Speaker
It was only Mary's younger 12-year-old sister Suzanne, who was called Susie or Sue by friends and family, who decided to go with her to the store.
00:07:09
Speaker
It actually makes sense to me the importance of, like we were saying, just the right school supplies, especially for students who loved school, and it seems like they did. According to an article for wjon.com, Mary wanted to be a teacher, and 12-year-old Susie, who was learning to play the violin, had dreams, I know, had dreams to be a doctor when she grew up. Also good for Susie. Yeah, so as they ran out the door to the store, they waved goodbye to their father, Fred, who was painting the family's home. So everybody's busy this day. Mom Rita told CBS News, quote, they left about 1115 from what I recall that morning. They said they would be back early, end quote.
Initial Police Response and Family Frustration
00:07:56
Speaker
And according to the crime junkie episode on this case, which I will reference because they were able to conduct an interview with mom Rita Raker for their episode, Rita actually received a phone call from that family who was supposed to drive Mary to school, telling her that instead of them leaving during the early afternoon around 4 p.m., they would be heading to school just after dinner around 7 p.m. So a little bit of a delay and that news was perfect for Rita because that would give Mary plenty of time to go to their store and then come home and still be able to help out before leaving. However, since Mary wasn't there
00:08:40
Speaker
for mom Rita to tell her the news right away, the phone call obviously was soon forgotten. Mary would obviously be back with plenty of time for Rita to let her know later. But the time when Mary was originally set to leave came and went. But Mary and Susie didn't return home. And that's quite a bit of time. That's like five hours. Right. And as far as Mary knew, she was supposed to leave for school around four. Soon it was dinner time, still no sign of her daughters. Rita and her husband Frank grew extremely concerned. Rita told wjon.com, quote, I remember fixing supper that evening and we generally ate around five o'clock and when they weren't there.
00:09:28
Speaker
We knew something was wrong." end quote This was not like her children. So it makes sense, as Rita later told CBS News, quote, when it got to be 6.30, 7 p.m., my husband went to the police department to report that they were missing. Yeah, because like we said, that's a bit of time already. Yeah. And remember that this was 1974, Maggie. So you can likely guess the police perspective on the report. Oh, they ran away. her Sadly, you are absolutely correct.
00:10:03
Speaker
Per an APM Reports article published October 11th, 2016, and written by Jennifer Vogel and Madeline Barron, quote, Fred and Rita had a hard time getting the case taken seriously by the St. Cloud Police Department, which believed the girls had simply run away, and later the Stearns County Sheriff's Office, which was in the middle of an election. It just seemed we couldn't move the powers that be, Raker said. So family members searched on their own. We were very frustrated at that time and angry about the whole thing," end quote. That's such a common theme for episodes or cases rather that we have covered. I just feel like maybe lives could be saved if we took things seriously from the get-go. Right, and what is the problem with taking things more seriously? Exactly.
00:10:55
Speaker
Eventually, even though there are many mistakes that have long been noted about the investigation, some additional details were discovered. Here are some of the gaps that have been filled in thanks to sightings of Mary and Susie. A manager at a Shopco store saw Mary and Susie right before noon. An hour later, around 1 to 1.30 p.m. or just after, a neighborhood boy named Jacob Younger ran into the two girls in Zayers. Which makes sense because they left like around 11. Yes.
00:11:31
Speaker
And it's a mile away. hu So that takes a little bit of time yeah to walk. As the two girls continued on, he saw them headed toward the grocery section of Zaire, which from the descriptions, in my mind, sounds a lot like a Walmart because it had groceries, clothing, yeah and all kinds of other goods. I was picturing a Sears. Old Tommy Sears. Does Sears have groceries? I don't know. I don't think so. Maybe. That's just what's in your head. Yeah. Yeah. The grocery section of the store was closed for the holiday. Remember, this was Labor Day, but. Interesting.
00:12:08
Speaker
this section with winter coats could be accessed by walking through the grocery section. So that the details of that siding, plus it being by a neighbor who knew the girls, made sense and that siding is trusted. So we at least know their whereabouts until around 130-ish. But there was something that Jacob Younger overheard bits and pieces of in a private conversation between Mary and Susie that haunted him after their disappearance. Younger told a reporter with the Minneapolis Star in 1977 that he heard 12-year-old Susie say to her older sister, Mary, something like, quote, I don't want to go with that man. I don't like him. Let's not end quote.
00:13:01
Speaker
Oh, the as Jacob Younger was leaving the store himself, he noticed a nervous looking man outside the store. speak so up Well, here's the thing though, whether this is the man that Susie was referring to is unknown. However, according to crime junkie, this man was seen by other witnesses as well.
00:13:30
Speaker
photographs as well as bulletins were sent out according to WJON files to, quote, all major cities and five upper Midwest states and to every state crime bureau, end quote. So even though there's a lot written about bungling the investigation, at least some information was shared. Conveyed early on. Yeah. Descriptions of the two girls and what they were last seen wearing, Mary in jeans, an army fatigue jacket with raker on the front pocket, and her green wire rimmed glasses, and Susie in blue corduroy pants, a short white cotton jacket, and gold wire rimmed glasses were also distributed. Other reports came in from those claiming to have seen Mary and Susie on Labor Day, but we
00:14:25
Speaker
kind of question these next few sightings that I'm going to tell you about. So I'll use air quotes when I say sightings. Those sightings included one man who said he saw two men and more than 10 teenagers enter a tavern in St. Cloud and that he remembered seeing the name Raker on one girl's shirt. However, these reports were not able to be substantiated and they may have been made after the bulletin with the description of their outfits have been distributed. Oh, so he would know. Yeah, I actually wasn't able to verify the timeline on the bulletin's release versus this witness report. But I feel like there's a reason other than nobody else seems to have seen these two men along with a group of 10 teenagers. And who wouldn't have noticed that walking into a tavern? Yeah.
00:15:20
Speaker
Still other reports came in that Mary and Susie had been seen heading toward a popular swimming spot for local kids located near the Meridian Aggregates Quarry. Again, these reports couldn't be substantiated and I just feel like that both of those are so weird because I think those would be more plausible in my mind if Mary went to school locally. But she goes to school almost an hour away, and she knows she's headed to school that day. And she doesn't seem to be an irresponsible type of gal who would just not be where she's supposed to be when she's supposed to be there. Right. And I would imagine they didn't go to the store with their swimsuits under their clothes. Oh, that's a good point. So yeah, there are multiple holes in this.
00:16:11
Speaker
argument. Of course, before any follow-up or lack thereof came to light, these, quote-unquote, sightings though, just supported the police supposition that the girls would eventually make their way back home. ah You know, it's just proof. Oh, see? See? We're we're finding them, right? They'll be back eventually. Then the days and the weeks passed, Maggie, with no additional words or details.
Discovery of Susie's Body
00:16:42
Speaker
The girls were seen in theirs and then nothing that we can verify. Obviously, this was an unfathomably difficult time for Fred and Rita Raker, who had to continue to run their household and care for their other four children,
00:17:01
Speaker
At the same time, they had moments of mingling hope that Mary and Susie would just come back in the door and fear of no answers for their other two children. I don't know which would be more scary, hoping that you do get answers. if they Let's say they don't come home. like You're hoping you do get answers or just living in this state of unknown. I don't know which would be worse. I don't know either. And it it saddens me that the Raker family who had just celebrated a reunion was now so disjointed. Just shy of four weeks after the girls' disappearance, the family received additional news around 2 p.m. on September 28th, 1974. Two teenage boys had been in the quarry area near Waite Park and had stumbled upon a body.
00:17:57
Speaker
I will tell you before we go any further, there are several quarries in St. Cloud, Minnesota, and I do know that one of the ways law enforcement have easily been able to rule out some of the tips that have come in in the years since has been by people identifying identifying the wrong quarry.
Mary's Body Found and Diary Revelation
00:18:22
Speaker
in their information, not the not the correct query where this body was found. However, I couldn't determine, and trust me, I did my Google searches, by the naming in the research versus the names of the queries in my Google searches.
00:18:40
Speaker
if this quarry near Waite Park where the body is found is the same quarry that was mentioned in some of the air quote sightings by those who said they saw the girls walking toward the popular swim spot. And do all these quarries have names and we just haven't released the name because we're using it to rule out in potential suspects? That's a great question. They do all have names. And I don't know, I mean, I even Googled the meridian aggregate quarry, and I didn't see that exact name even as, so I don't know if it's something that is known locally. Yeah, but that's not the official name of it. so
00:19:29
Speaker
I'm not sure if the quarry where the bodies found is the same because obviously then that would seem to support maybe there were some sightings. So I just wanted to clear that up here. So obviously if we have listeners from the St. Cloud area, I would love to hear more about whether the meridian aggregates quarry could be the same one as the quarry near Waite Park where the discovery was made. I did see that the quarry where the discovery was, was a popular swimming spot. um So maybe they are one and the same. But the body that was discovered was 12 year old Susie's body. Again, this was around 2pm. When police responded, they found her fully clothed.
00:20:22
Speaker
but her body had been placed under a bush in some tall grass about 13 yards from the quarry. She had been stabbed 13 times. Wow. Yes, in surveying the area, police also located clothing, but the clothing wasn't Susie's. It was clothing that matched Mary's outfit that she was last seen wearing. Obviously they know we've got to do more in-depth searching in this area. And after searching the waters below, that is where they located around 6 p.m. that same day, 40 feet below the surface of the water, 15-year-old Mary's body as well.
00:21:10
Speaker
Mary found nude, had been stabbed six times. So very violent ends these girls met. Very. Neither girl had defensive wounds. And because of decomposition, investigators were unable to tell whether either girl had been sexually assaulted. Of the clothing collected, they found Mary's pants and underwear on the cliffs of the quarry in a way that led them to believe that the perpetrator had tried to throw them into the water below as well. Which makes me think maybe there was some type of assault. Her bra had been cut off of her and cut into four pieces.
00:22:02
Speaker
Rita Raker told St. Cloud Times reporter David Un's, quote, we definitely went through all those emotions of just fear, first of all, because we didn't know who it was, and then anger that so little seemed to be done at the time, and it seemed like nobody knew what to do, end quote. One thing was clear now, though, Maggie. Passing off the girl's disappearance as a runaway situation could no longer be an excuse. Now they needed a real and thorough investigation. With this revised focus, Maggie, if you got chills before,
00:22:46
Speaker
A chilling discovery was made in a place that was right under everyone's noses the whole time. Mary's diary. Stop it. She had written the following message, quote, should I die, I ask that my stuffed animals be given to my sister. And if I am murdered, see that justice wins over. I have a few reasons to fear for my life. What I ask is important." end quote Holy cow.
Investigation Errors and Hope for Confession
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
So that tells you this was not something that was sudden a random attack or Bruce Bechtold, the Stearns County Sheriff's Chief Deputy in 2016 told a reporter from TwinCities.com, quote, it's pretty significant to look at that. You certainly can't rule that out because what 15-year-old girl writes that, end quote. Mom Rita Raker told Fox 9, quote, she wrote it to our family, and she said, see that justice wins over. That's hard. That was my child, end quote. I mean, my jaw's on the floor. Mm-hmm. And especially since so much time would pass without any convictions, without any justice.
00:24:18
Speaker
Struggles would continue to plague the investigation. Some of those noted by Care 11 include lost police reports, evidence kept in detectives desks rather than in evidence, and suspect names which were given to police who were never interviewed at all. And in all the years since, there hasn't been enough evidence to charge anyone. with the crime. But that doesn't mean that there aren't theories based on the investigation over the last 50 years that gives us hope for answers. And you know, Maggie, I am the eternal optimist. I'm the one who gives somebody, you know, 50 chances because I think they're gonna change even though they don't. But I've never faced a struggle as traumatic
00:25:16
Speaker
as the families in our case is. So I don't know, if I'm honest with myself, how long hope holds out that someone will be held accountable. Yeah, when do you just give up? who I don't know how long I would be able to keep my focus and my voice strong. And I think that's why we are so adamant about support. yeah Because most of us can't know. But that doesn't mean that we can't show love and compassion and support. And I think sometimes, like you just said, hope starts to thin out. And I think, or I would hope, knowing that you have people that aren't giving up on your loved one's case kind of renews your sense of hope and helps you to keep going. Oh, I think definitely so.
00:26:17
Speaker
And in this case, without evidence to clearly identify the perpetrator, Rita Raker's hopes actually shifted elsewhere. According to an article for Fox 9 News, Rita stated, quote, I felt my only hope was that there would be a deathbed confession. That's honestly how I felt. That's where it was all going to end. I just hoped that I would live long enough to see that," end quote. Despite the fact that we don't know who the perpetrator is or perpetrators are, doesn't mean that we don't have some theories.
Profiling the Killer
00:26:54
Speaker
But before I get into the specifics, people, I wanted to share thoughts from FBI profilers, from Sheriff Chief Deputy Bechtold, and from mom, Rita Raker, on it what they think about the perpetrator.
00:27:10
Speaker
FBI profilers believed that whomever committed the crime was both young, they used words like inept and sloppy to describe the crime scene, and that they were from the area. Well, if it was sloppy, then why don't we know who it is? Exactly. That's what I was thinking. Then why are we 50 years later and have no answers? But they also believe that he likely had an accomplice. oh I think part of their assumptions are based on the fact that neither girl had defensive wounds, which to me at least implies that whomever committed the crime wasn't perhaps seen as a threat, as an adult may have been.
00:27:58
Speaker
and this belief that there were likely two of them because how does one person subdue both girls at the same time without one running away? That's a good point. To be more specific, they believe that whoever committed the crime was someone known to either both girls or at least one of them. Yeah, just keep going back to the comment their friend heard them say in the department store. Right. It could be the case that Mary knew somebody and Susie didn't. But the problem with that comment in the their department store
00:28:36
Speaker
is that the stranger that the neighbor young saw was a man. And the profilers believe that the person who perpetrated this crime was young. Maybe the man was the accomplice? Maybe. Sheriff's Chief Deputy Bruce Beck told has said that he believes it likely that there are people out there who might have seen something or heard something.
Suspects: Rev. Eckroth and Bartoszewski
00:29:06
Speaker
that they didn't believe was important at the time, maybe because it was a common occurrence to see certain people together or to see a certain person often around town, but that that information could break the case open. An article by the Associated Press and published on TwinCities.com quotes Bechtold with the following call to action, quote, we'd like to know what happened from the time they left the store
00:29:34
Speaker
until they were murdered. If someone saw certain people together, and I can't say who those certain people would be, but we have witnesses who saw the girls at the store. We have witnesses who saw them in different places." End quote. But I think that's hard. I mean, that's like saying The person you're looking for has brown hair and brown eyes. That could be so many people. And what do they mean by it certain people together? That could be a lot of people. We could be yeah together. You and Ronnie could be together. Me and Anthony. think You know what I mean? That could be a lot of different people. So how do you know who you're looking for? I know. and And what makes it hard is that if it is a detail that was commonplace, then it wouldn't stand out in your memory. ah You wouldn't remember it because... and Especially now.
00:30:31
Speaker
Yeah, 50 years later. Right. Bechtold and Rita Raker both agree that the perpetrator is likely from St. Cloud or the surrounding area. While Bechtold said the sheriff's office hasn't, quote, ruled out an accomplice, Rita Raker does believe that there was one. In present day and in the last few years, investigators have gone back to the original evidence and files and given it all the analysis and investigative fervor that it should have had from the beginning. There are four major theories that we now often hear about in relation to this case. So I'm going to tell you about those four theories now. Theory number one,
00:31:21
Speaker
Not long after the murders of Mary and Susie Raker, a local man came on the radar of Stearns County law enforcement. 75 year old Reverend Richard Eckroth. He was, according to an article for Behind the Pine Curtain, a suspect in multiple sex abuse cases. As a monk at St. John's Abbey in Collegeville, he would take children from the church to a remote cabin for retreats. Holy, that's so scary. I know. And we know that at least Mary had been to that cabin in 1972, though that's two years before the murders. According to Behind the Pine Curtain, quote, Stearns County Sheriff James Costriba,
00:32:13
Speaker
said Eckroth is among several suspects we're taking another look at in connection with the 1974 double murder. Eckroth has denied any wrongdoing. He could not be reached for comment. In the 1990s, at the insistence of the girl's parents, he took and passed a polygraph test, the sheriff said, end quote. And we know polygraphs don't mean anything. Obviously, with this theory, he was from the area. But he's so old. like i know I don't know that I could see him overpowering ah two healthy young girls. yeah you know I don't know, 75-year-old men, some of them look very agile, so maybe he was in really good health and shape for his age. And again, did he have an accomplice? Because why wouldn't one or the other of them have run?
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah, and unless I wonder if there could have been, since Susie was under the bush and Mary was in the water, I wonder if he maybe had one wait somewhere and said, I need to talk to your sister. Just wait right here. We'll be right back. Maybe. There's kind of two different locations. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. It could be. We'll keep him on the board for now. Okay. Theory number two, Michael Bartoszewski. He lived just a couple of blocks from the Raker family, so he's a local. Years later, Bartoszewski was also responsible for a murder, which sent him to prison.
00:33:51
Speaker
This murder of a young girl named Michelle Talbot took place three years after the Raker murders. It was a crime that Care 11 reported in an article published November 14, 2005, that Bartoszewski, quote, didn't remember. Oh, that's terrifying. Yeah, here is what they wrote of that crime. Quote, Bartoszewski was so drunk and full of rage when he murdered Michelle that he literally has no recollection of the crime. Talbot was the daughter of a family he was living with at the time. In a prison interview outside Pueblo, Colorado, Bartoszewski said, quote, all I understand is that I was out of my mind.
00:34:42
Speaker
Bartoszewski was identified as a suspect by police just a few years after the crime. Old newspaper accounts quote a former Stearns County Sheriff saying the knife used in the Colorado murder was the same type of knife used in the killing of Marion and Susan Raker.
Suspects: Welch and Notch
00:35:02
Speaker
All three of the girls were stabbed repeatedly in the chest. Bartoszewski also cut Michelle's throat, end quote. and So is the use of a similar murder weapon a connection or yeah is it a coincidence? How I said they meant very brutal ends. Yes. I wonder if the almost overkill because one was stabbed 13 times and one was stabbed six times was because whoever murdered them just blacked out and they have, you know, just kind of went crazy. Right. I mean, and in this case, this young girl, Michelle, was only eight.
00:35:43
Speaker
ah Wow. And i like it said, the daughter of the family that Bartoszewski had been staying with. But he said that he just got so drunk And when he drinks, he gets filled with rage that he doesn't remember anything. Well, you know, I think maybe as an adult, then perhaps we need to get help with that problem and realize maybe we don't need to drink. If we get so out of control, we can't control our rage. Well, then. something happens again with him. That Care 11 article details another of Bartoszewski's crimes, and I'll be jumping around through various parts of the article in this next quote, so ah there are some ellipses in my quote.
00:36:30
Speaker
Quote, according to the same former sheriff, that same type of knife was also used in an assault on Bev Servio in St. Cloud. She says she still fears the man who she claims kidnapped her just two years after the Raker girl's abduction and murder. Bartoszewski was charged with four felonies after his night out with Bev Servio. The criminal complaint describes details of an aggressive sexual assault with Bartoszewski stripped below the waist, armed with a knife and ordering his victim to drive. Police reports indicate Bev drove the car off the road and ran for her life with an infant daughter in her arms.
00:37:17
Speaker
The charges in the Servio case were dropped after Bartoszewski was convicted in the Colorado murder. Still, Bartoszewski adamantly maintains he had nothing to do with the Raker girls murder. well He can't remember, so you're not very trustworthy. I will say that's why he says he didn't do it. He says it's because in 1974, he was still 15 years old. and he insists that he didn't start drinking for at least a year or two later. That's literally what he said. When asked of the chances that meet he may have killed the Raker girls and failed to remember it, as he's failed to remember even the homicide he's serving time for today, Bartoszewski responded, quote, it's not possible, end quote. But he was young, and that fits the profile. I know.
00:38:14
Speaker
I know. And we have the similar knife. hu Okay, theory number three, Lloyd Welch. The information for this theory comes primarily from a Care 11 article by AJ Lago and Steve Eckert. They write about a crime against Georgie Andrea 46 years before this article I'm gonna tell you about was published and the crime happened in St. Cloud, Minnesota, which is where the Rakers live. So let me tell you about what happened to Georgie and Dreher. Here's the main reason I think why this particular case is such a strong theory.
00:39:01
Speaker
And that is because it took place days before the labor day that the Raker sisters disappeared. According to Lago and Eckert, quote, the story Dreher tells has striking similarities to the Raker case. She took care 11 back to the spot where she says she first met her attacker, a young man, apparently in his late teens. He was coming across the parking lot on a bike, Dreher said, pointing across the street to the shopping center where the Raker girls were last seen. Zaire's shopping center was right over there, she said. It was a hot summer day. Georgie Ann said she was new in town.
00:39:50
Speaker
interested in making friends. And I asked him, do you know any good swimming spots? And he said, yes, the quarry is a beautiful place. End quote. Yeah. So already we've got young Zayre's shopping center and and he's talking about a swimming spot and the quarry. Believing that she could trust a fellow young person and following him to the quarry, The two began talking. He said his name was Lloyd, and he told her that he worked with a traveling carnival. Interesting. And he spoke of a girl named Helen, like just kept mentioning Helen. And everything seemed fine that afternoon, like Dreher had made a new friend in town. Then things shifted quickly.
00:40:43
Speaker
She told Lago and Eckert, quote, he reached back and he was fiddling around with his left hand and he pulled out a knife, she remembered. And that's when I just started doing everything he said. As he assaulted her, she says he talked about his fantasies, including a fascination with sisters, end quote. Oh, so many red flags. Yeah. So here we are at the quarry with a person with a knife and he's talking about his fascination with sisters.
00:41:22
Speaker
So she knew in this moment, Maggie, either she had to do what he demanded of her or he would kill her. So she focused on memorizing his face. memorizing the details that she planned to take to the police if she were able to escape. Wow. And you know what's crazy is yeah she had to be so scared in that moment and what a heroic action that she was able to think to herself. Okay.
00:41:55
Speaker
I am about to die or be raped probably. So she was able to put that all aside and focus on memorizing his face so that she could turn him into police and he hopefully would not do this to anyone else. Heroic. Mm hmm. Yep. She noticed he had a scar on his left eyebrow. I mean, she was really looking at details. She was trying to remember all those details that he had given her about his life if they were true. During the attack, he cut her clothing off of her, and she remembers how sharp his knife was. Luckily, Maggie, a car pulled nearby, close enough to startle him and allow Dreher time to escape. Good lord. Yes.
00:42:47
Speaker
Obviously incredulous at the remarkable similarities, the Kara Levin article shares the author's conversation with Dreher. Quote, she even showed Kara Levin's A.J. Lago how she wrote about it at the time in her scrapbook. You wrote his name, Lago asked? Yes, Lloyd, she said, pointing to his name and the words she wrote, quote, then tried to kill me. Remember her assault was just days before the Riker sisters disappeared. So I want to make sure I have this straight, asked Lago. You met the man who assaulted you across the street from Zayers. That's correct, George Ann said. And where you were sexually assaulted was less than three quarters of a mile from where the sisters bodies were found, he asked. That's correct, she replied.
00:43:47
Speaker
end quote. So this is seeming like slam dunk. I mean, there's so many things, yeah so many similarities. After escaping, Dreher immediately went to authorities. But Maggie, it doesn't seem like that much was done. Why? Is it because she's a girl? I don't know. I mean, even police later would go back and they're like, we don't see the report anywhere. And despite similarities to the Raker case, especially after their bodies were discovered, those authorities aren't convinced there's a connection. Oh yeah, because I just remembered he cut her bra. He cut Mary's bra. Yep. Yep.
00:44:34
Speaker
And Georgine was talking about her clothes being cut off. According to Laghow and Eckert, those two reporters, an acquaintance of Georgine Dreher, who happened to be a deputy US Marshal, told her his belief that her attacker Lloyd would likely attack again. Well, obviously she wanted to, number one, protect others, and number two, protect herself. So she created an alert for any story that would be published online, this is obviously years later, containing the name Lloyd and, quote, carnival worker.
00:45:10
Speaker
And eventually, what the family acquaintance had predicted came true. What? Yeah, a man named Lloyd Welch was, at the time, a person of interest in the cold case of the Lyon sisters' murders in Washington, DC, which was a 12-year-old named Sheila and her 10-year-old sister, Catherine. Here are some of the basic details of their case. The sisters had been at Wheaton Shopping Center Plaza outside Washington DC when they disappeared in March 1975.
00:45:47
Speaker
According to the coverage of the case, a mugshot of Lloyd Welch was published in the paper, having, you know, related to that case. Dreher, who had been attacked by Lloyd Welch, told Care11, quote, it was mind-blowing. Georgeann said, when you saw this photo, did you have any doubt that this was the man who sexually assaulted you? Care11's Lago asked. Absolutely not. That was the man that assaulted me, she replied, end quote. So she goes to police again, and she says, listen, this is a crime that happened to me, and I'm seeing the similarities yeah with this new case of the Lion Sisters. So George Andrea was actually called to be a witness in the Lion Sisters trial.
00:46:37
Speaker
And Drayer has been vocal about her disbelief in the fact that Stearns County authorities don't seem convinced that Welch may be responsible for Mary and Susie Raker's murders. I mean, I feel like we're all right there with her, like at least look into him. Right. Yeah. ah Her gut is saying, well, they're wrong if they don't think that there's a connection. She told Lago and Eckert, quote, that's a guy that's a serial killer. You got two girls on the East Coast, two girls out here, and he's got a fantasy about sisters, she said. She has written to Welch in prison and even visited him once, hoping to get, yeah, hoping to get a confession that still hasn't come.
00:47:26
Speaker
I want answers, she said. In an email dated August 1st, 2020, an investigator told her, quote, the investigation of the Raker homicides points in a different direction than Mr. Welch, end quote. Okay. Well, what direction does it point in? Because it's unsolved all these years later. So is your campus broken and it's just spinning around? Cause we don't have a direction. Right. So that was theory three. And that brings us to our final theory, theory number number four, Herb Notch. Again, this theory is based on a similar crime. In 1976, when this other crime occurred, which is two years after the Raker girl murders, Notch was 17, which was when law enforcement initially began linking him to the Raker murders.
00:48:23
Speaker
A Fox 9 article titled Raker Murders Connection or Coincidence was published on September 20, 2016, providing the following details about that 1976 crime that put him on police radar. That crime was against 14-year-old Sue Dukowitz. And it was the information provided by Herb Notch's accomplice know in that crime that put him on the radar. So now we have someone who would have been 15 in 1974 and who at least in this crime two years later
00:49:04
Speaker
had an accomplice.
Evidence Against Notch
00:49:05
Speaker
So he potentially could have had one back if he were responsible for Mary and Susie. Yes. The accomplice provided the following description to Fox nine reporters. Quote, one Saturday evening, they were driving around St. Cloud and stopped at a convenience store called the dairy bar. He, meaning notch, says, let's go in and knock over the store. No big deal. Recall the accomplice. They went into the store with a gun. 14-year-old Sue Dukowitz was at the register while her dad, the owner, was doing work next door. They ordered her to hand over money from the till and told her to go with them to the car. Notch drove south of town on a dirt road, which at that time led to a secluded gravel pit.
00:49:57
Speaker
He always had this knife and he was playing with it, the accomplice said. Notch parked the car off the road. Dukowitz was tied up with tape and Notch used his knife to slice through the front of her sweater. He also cut off her bra and underwear. After sexually assaulting her, he stabbed her. He had no remorse at all, none, like hitting a bug on your windshield," said the accomplice. Notch and the accomplice believed Dukowitz was dead, so they hid her body under some brush, end quote. I just can't believe how evil people are. Mm-hmm. Young people. Yeah.
00:50:49
Speaker
Now, just based on that information, just like with the last theory, I'm sure you see the similarities with the Raker sister murders. Yeah. You've got the Raker sisters and Sue. They're both taken to remote locations. You've got... The clothes cut off. Yep. Mary and Sue's sweaters were cut down the front, both of them. Both Mary and Sue. But they weren't taped up right that we know of. Right, that we know of, yeah. Mary and Sue, like you said, had their bras cut off. Both Susie and Sue were hidden in foliage. But here's the reason, Maggie, that we know Herb Notch and his accomplices names.
00:51:28
Speaker
Sue Dukowitz survived. wow Following her attack, she had played dead until Herb Notch and the other young boy drove away. again hero After he stabbed her, she just acted like she was dead. Then she walked until she found a house which was about half a mile away. How many times had she been stabbed? I didn't see how many times.
00:52:00
Speaker
Wow. And then she knocked on the door to ask for help. The owners of the home called an ambulance for Sue when she was promptly taken to the hospital to recover and made a police report about her attackers. Police located the two young boys after searching only a few hours. When arrested, they immediately confessed. Fox 9 reports, quote, when asked why he did it, Notch said, I still haven't got an answer for that, end quote.
00:52:35
Speaker
Oh my God, I mean psychotic. Well, speaking of, Notch was mandated to have a psychiatric evaluation. The results, according to court records reported by Fox 9, stated that Notch had, quote, a fearlessly savage quality about him. was a quote, very dangerous person and quote, in the right situation, a homicidal individual. Is he in jail? We'll get to that. Oh my God. He seems to lack any significant remorse regarding his alleged offenses. The court record showed end quote.
00:53:17
Speaker
and the two, Notch and the accomplice, were found guilty. The sentence was seven years for the accomplice and 40 years for Notch. And he was how old at the time? 17. Oh, so he's out for sure. As for the question in the article titled Connection or Coincidence, The closest chief deputy Bechtel would come to an answer was to tell Fox 9 reporters, quote, I can agree with you that there are similarities in both cases, end quote. But Notch isn't admitting to anything. Like he's not even saying I'm not involved. Well, he has continued to maintain that he knows nothing about the ring of her sisters. But according to what his accomplice told Fox 9, quote,
00:54:12
Speaker
in the 1980s while they were both still in prison for the Dukowitz attack. Here's what his accomplice said. The guy was hissing like a snake and talking about he wants to kill everybody, he said, end quote. So clearly deranged. Right? And we have the cutting of the clothing, just like we had before. We have somebody young. We have an accomplice. But let's stick with a scary hissing for a minute. Because it wasn't the first time that a hiss was Herb Notch's response to something. He had done it before.
00:54:56
Speaker
Back in 1974, the year of the Raker sister murders, while talking to a friend and coworker named Russ when they were both grocery baggers at Zayre's. But the grocery store was closed. Exactly. That's the very store where Mary and Susie were last seen. But it's significant because if it's closed, it doesn't have to be work. It was actually Russ, the co-worker, and another of his friends who discovered Susie's body near the quarry less than a month later. um And he had always suspected Herb Notch's involvement. Here's his recollections of when he actually accused Herb
00:55:47
Speaker
of involvement in the Raker sisters case, as stated in that same Fox nine article, quote, he remembers notch always playing with a knife. He'd sit in his car in the zeros parking lot on his days off and just stare at people. One day he said, his gut told him to ask notch about the Raker girls. I said, Herb, did you know about this or have anything to do with that? I don't remember which way I worded it, but he went, hiss. And that was the only response I got out of him. Oh, y'all should see my face. Yeah.
00:56:27
Speaker
Is that not terrifying? Yeah. I don't know what I would do if I ask somebody something like, were you involved in this murder? And they hit me. And they just reset you. I'd be like, well, gotta go. This is Satan incarnate. This is the devil incarnate right here. Who does that? So Russ, the friend, contacted law enforcement about this encounter with Herb. And obviously they, they wrote it down. Well, according to that Fox nine article in 2016, the Fox nine investigators tried to interview notch for a story about the Raker case. Cause they're like, maybe, maybe he is connected. Quote, when reached all notch said was don't bother me any effing more and hung up.
00:57:25
Speaker
her not yeah I would say, if he's not involved, it would probably be very tiring to have it brought up time and time again asking if you were involved. After you've spent time in jail for something else, you paid your time, and now people are still harassing you, I could see why he would have such a harsh response if he weren't involved. And I can also see having a harsh response like that if you were involved. And you just don't want to answer questions. Right. Yeah. At least he didn't hiss. Yeah, true. Herb Notch was given a polygraph test concerning involvement about the Raker murders, but the results were inconclusive. However, here was, like I said, a young person acting with an accomplice who was from the area. Actually, Maggie, he was from Luxembourg. Oh, where Mary's parents grandparents were from? Yeah. And remember, that's where she had just spent her entire summer.
Rita's Confrontation and Family Belief
00:58:24
Speaker
And remember that she was, you know, this was when she started acting different. Oh, yeah. And she made this in the entry in the diary. So did she meet him there? And maybe she sees him at Zayre's because she and her mom had already gone shopping for some school supplies. I don't i don't know. It was likely that even though they didn't attend the same school, that Mary did know him, right? And like I said a moment ago, the fact that the grocery department of theirs was closed on Labor Day meant that he had all the free time in the world that day yeah because he wasn't at work.
00:59:08
Speaker
For all of those reasons, Notch is the theory most commonly accepted by those interested in the case and the one whom the Raker family believe is responsible if only there were proof. And that's why when Herb Notch was admitted to a St. Cloud hospital when he was dying from liver failure. Oh, that the mom was like, I hope I get this. yep can i talk about that deathbed confession yep rita raker wanted to speak with him hoping to get the proof that she needed she told fox nine quote. I wanted to confront him she said i knew i had to do that and quote so she got wired up.
00:59:53
Speaker
And she did just that. wow And here's what happened. Quote, I walked in and I told him I was the mother of Mary and Suzanne and that I had waited 42 years for this, she said. I needed some answers. She said it took a few moments for Notch to realize who was confronting him. He just pointed right at me and said, I give you my word I didn't do it, she recalled. He was totally in denial. I found him to be very angry, a very hard and very bitter person. There was no sense of remorse at all. She continued to try and make conversation with him, hoping he might offer some clues about the murder.
01:00:36
Speaker
Another thing he said to me that I thought was really strange, why can't you just put it behind you? Because those are her kids. Yeah, Raker said, I told him because they were my children. And as long as I was alive, I was going to be searching for their killer. And then he said something which might be interpreted as a hint of a confession. I'm going to hell. She responded by telling Notch she's been praying for him over the past four decades. The confrontation between the 82-year-old mother and the suspected killer of her two girls lasted all of 21 minutes. I came out of there just numb, she said. For me, my search is over. I have no doubt that he was the person who killed them." End quote. And Herb Notch died
01:01:35
Speaker
a week later, but to this day, Maggie, the Mary and Susie Raker case is obviously still open because investigators still don't have enough evidence to link Herb Notch or anyone else directly to the crime. So Maggie, what are your thoughts? Wowzies. Well, at first I was like, it's the one guy. Was that theory three? Lloyd Welch. Yeah, carnival the carnival worker. Yeah, so I was at first like, oh, it's definitely Lloyd Welch. But then I'm like, I don't know if it was or not. I mean, there's even similarities with number two, Michael, whatever his last name was. ah So I feel like with two, I was like, I was definitely him. And then with three, I was like, yep, definitely Lloyd. And then with four, I'm like, yep, definitely Herb.
01:02:35
Speaker
I don't know. Because as the family is inclined to believe number four, that's the way that I want to lean as well. Did we say police have leaned either way? They don't lean with Mr. Welch. They do not. No, they're they lean more toward Herb Notch. Hmm. I don't know. What do you think? I'm with you. From the information that I have, I'm torn between Lloyd Welch and Herb Notch. The similarities with Lloyd Welch are just a little bit uncanny though. okay And it happening days before? Yeah. That's what I can't. I understand why George Andrea feels in her gut that there's a connection and she's like, why, why are they not?
01:03:31
Speaker
looking into it. Right. So i I myself am torn. Mary and Susie Raker's brother, Marty Raker, who was 10 at the time, told the St. Cloud Times, quote, you maybe become more prepared for bad things in life. It prepares you, I suppose, for anything that happens after that. Marty said of the deaths of two of his sisters, because it seems like no matter what happens in your life after that, it's not as bad as that." end quote He went on to say, quote, you're certainly in a club that you don't really want to belong to, Marty said, but that's what you're a part of now. And that's the way it goes. and The pain, the trauma, the impact are palpable in his comments.
01:04:25
Speaker
More recently, in 2005, a highly educated and experienced group of experts in criminal investigation, a group called the Vedox Society, made up of scientists, FBI agents, detectives, psychologists, and the like, decided to dedicate time to analyzing the evidence and investigation completed in the Raker case. As a result of that work, they announced that they, quote, supported and confirmed that the person or persons of interest identified by local investigators were in fact the trail to follow." End quote. Now who that is, they haven't said. Though that comment alone told the Raker family, including Brother Marty, all the information he needed to know in his heart, to know who he thought was responsible, despite no conviction in a court of law.
01:05:23
Speaker
But that didn't mean the fire in their hearts for justice dwindled any. Here's more on that from reporters Jennifer Vogel and Madeline Barron for APM reports. Quote, there have been several suspects over the decades, but the crimes remain unsolved. It happened so many years ago, said Raker, who was 38 when her daughters were killed. And in some ways, it's like yesterday. But most of the time, it's like 41 years have gone by and it's still unsolved. We've worked with, I think, four sheriffs during this time. We worked with multiple investigators over the years who started their career and ended it, and the new ones come on," end quote. Rita added, quote, I'm the only voice left for my children, she said. They have no voice to speak anymore, and I do. As long as I'm alive,
01:06:19
Speaker
I will." end quote Unfortunately, both Fred and Rita Raker passed with no other assurances nor answers than that. And that is why it is so much more important for those of us listening to this case to now help be Rita's voice and to continue to keep the focus on the case. We won't forget. We want justice, no matter when it comes.
Call for Public Help in Solving the Case
01:06:46
Speaker
To that point, law enforcement have kept several items of clothing in hopes that DNA testing will eventually advance enough to provide the evidence necessary for a conviction. In the meantime, authorities still need help from the public. If you have any information concerning Mary and Susie Raker, details about Labor Day, 1974, the days leading to it, or information concerning any of the theories,
01:07:13
Speaker
Email your information to sheriffinfo at co.stearns.mn.us or call either the Stearns County Sheriff's Office at 320-251-4240 or the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension Cold Case Unit at 877-996-6222. Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:08:11
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.