Transcript
Speaker: Hello, hello friends and welcome back to the wholeheartedly her podcast.
Speaker: I'm your host Laura Pryor and I am so glad to be back this week after taking last week off.
Speaker: I'm so grateful for all of you who understood how busy my life has been lately and that the podcast just didn't happen last week.
Speaker: I wanted to give the editing process my 100% effort for this episode because it's very important to me.
Speaker: So I took last week off, spent a little more time editing for this week, and we are back along with my voice.
Speaker: My voice is back, thankfully, except when I recorded this episode, it was not quite back.
Speaker: So you're stuck with no voice for one more episode, but...
Speaker: Guys, this episode was just, it's near and dear to my heart.
Speaker: It's a subject that I'm very passionate about and I'm just so glad I got to sit down with my friend Brooke and discuss purity culture, which I know is a topic that's so important to so many of you as well.
Speaker: Brooke is a believer, a wife to Nick, and a mom to one little boy.
Speaker: She is passionate about all things mental health and she's actually in the process of becoming a licensed therapist.
Speaker: She plans to specialize in healing from spiritual abuse, purity culture, and church trauma.
Speaker: She is also interested in the areas of postpartum and grief counseling.
Speaker: In her spare time, you can find her having coffee dates with her friends,
Speaker: traveling, spending time with her family, or reading.
Speaker: You can catch her over at her Instagram, which will be in the description of this episode.
Speaker: Guys, my friend Brooke is so knowledgeable on this topic and I'm just so excited for you to listen to this episode we did.
Speaker: So grab a seat at the table and welcome back to the Wholeheartedly Her podcast.
Speaker: All right, friends, welcome back to the podcast and welcome to my friend Brooke.
Speaker: Brooke and I went to church, grew up in a little suburb of Oklahoma City together, went to church together our whole lives.
Speaker: Wow, we went through some phases together and I'm just so pumped that Brooke agreed to come on my podcast, talk about a super spicy subject.
Speaker: We're back on spicy subjects.
Speaker: I took a break for a little bit, but I couldn't take too long of a break.
Speaker: So welcome to the podcast, Brooke.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I'm excited to be here.
Speaker: Also, just so everyone knows, Brooke and I are both under the weather with what we thought was allergies, but now we're thinking maybe we're just sick with the same like respiratory virus.
Speaker: So you guys get two weeks in a row with me having no voice, which is so great for a podcast host.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just tell us a little bit about like you, your life, what you do.
Speaker: Just whatever you want to share with us.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: My name is Brooke Larimore.
Speaker: I am a
Speaker: I have a seven-month-old.
Speaker: Laura and I have babies really close in age.
Speaker: And I just completed my master's degree in counseling.
Speaker: So I'm working on becoming a licensed therapist.
Speaker: It's been a long time coming, but that is what my life looks like right now.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So let's talk about how we met because I think that's really fun.
Speaker: So we, I think we had gone to church together a little, not a little, it was a big church in a little town.
Speaker: And I feel like half the town goes to the church.
Speaker: And we, I went on my first mission trip.
Speaker: I don't know if it was your first missions trip to Port Arthur, Texas, which is so wild because my son is named Arthur, not even named after Port Arthur, obviously, but like I was thinking about that recently, but yeah.
Speaker: So
Speaker: We just kind of met, bonded over Jesus and sports.
Speaker: We are a lot different than you were than now.
Speaker: Oh, for sure.
Speaker: Oh my gosh, I'm wearing a tank top.
Speaker: That's just in and of itself.
Speaker: I'm wearing a tank top with nothing over it.
Speaker: That's so scandalous for me.
Speaker: Especially back when did we meet?
Speaker: I'm sure we're verging on 13 years.
Speaker: Maybe in middle school.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was like, I think you might have been in middle school.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: When we became actual friends.
Speaker: Poor Arthur and all our vegetable puns that we were doing.
Speaker: Good times.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Chive got a feeling.
Speaker: We would make, what do they call them?
Speaker: What do you call it when you like put your own lyrics to a song?
Speaker: oh i don't know like our own remix or something remix yeah we would remix like chive got a feeling artichoke you for that oh yeah we had a lot of them and we thought we were just hilarious we thought we were so funny yeah oh man
Speaker: Good times.
Speaker: Well, yes, thank goodness we've grown since then.
Speaker: Okay, so on to like the subject of the day instead of our stupid vegetable puns, which we could go on forever on those because those are actually really hilarious.
Speaker: So we are obviously the topic of today's podcast episode is let's talk about purity culture.
Speaker: I titled it that because I was like, I'm just going to make a play on that song where they're like, let's talk about sex, baby.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: And I can't sing, so I'm not going to sing the rest.
Speaker: But let's talk about purity culture.
Speaker: This is something that Brooke and I have actually had many private discussions over because it's impacted us both quite a bit as women.
Speaker: And I think it's something that a lot of people –
Speaker: don't think about how it impacts women, especially when it's introduced at such a young age and when it's really just molded into how the church teaches women about sex and sex life and all the things that come with that.
Speaker: And obviously teaching and talking about that to young girls is
Speaker: It has to be done in a very careful way because so often girls will find their worth in how you present this topic to them.
Speaker: So that can be either very life-giving or it can be very harmful.
Speaker: And so I just wanted to have a public conversation with Brooke because I think we're pretty well on the same page about purity culture.
Speaker: But like I said, we've both been impacted by it.
Speaker: So let's just get into it.
Speaker: So first off, like, Brooke, talk to us, like, what is purity culture?
Speaker: How would you define that?
Speaker: Is there like a actual, how would you like define purity culture?
Speaker: Upon doing my own research, because I was not alive during this time, it kind of started after there was this like sexual revolution in the 60s and 70s.
Speaker: You know, think hippie movement, Woodstock, all of that.
Speaker: People were just very like free sexually.
Speaker: And so then there's like this rise in like people who had an AIDS diagnosis, HIV.
Speaker: And so, you know, those people were trying to parent their kids in a different way.
Speaker: And the government was really trying to figure out kind of how do we do sex education in our schools?
Speaker: And what does that look like?
Speaker: And there was a, there's a guy named Joshua Harris, I think.
Speaker: He, so that was kind of like a big catalyst for that movement.
Speaker: I mean, he even advocated for like,
Speaker: not kissing your spouse until marriage.
Speaker: He was the guy who wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
Speaker: And that was like a whole, whole like, because we read that in school.
Speaker: I went to a private school.
Speaker: I think I've mentioned that before in a different episode.
Speaker: Yeah, that was in our Bible class in like seventh grade required reading.
Speaker: And we read it.
Speaker: And like in the moment I was like, oh,
Speaker: wow, there's a guy out there who's not going to kiss anyone but me, like gave me such hope.
Speaker: And then obviously I get out in the real world.
Speaker: I'm like, what kind of crap is this?
Speaker: And so, yeah, no, very familiar with Josh Harris and his...
Speaker: I'm pretty sure he's like a freaking atheist and he's divorced now.
Speaker: So yeah, he has since renounced his book and deconstructed from his faith altogether.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So that's, that's sad, obviously, you know, to be so pivotal in that movement and then to come back and say I was wrong, but that also like speaks volumes, you know, to the ad, I think.
Speaker: So anyways, I would say purity culture is like, you know,
Speaker: the way that a group of people in society view sexuality and what the norms are.
Speaker: So like in the Christian church, obviously for us, the norms were you don't have sex until you're married.
Speaker: really don't touch anybody until you're married.
Speaker: Like, you know, be very modest, be very mindful of what you wear, just kind of all of those things.
Speaker: So I would say it's just kind of like a set of like cultural norms and what we believe about what the Bible says about purity, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's a really good definition.
Speaker: Because I think that people just think of it as like, well, purity culture is just like,
Speaker: abstinence is best and there's just so much more to it than that and I don't think people really realize the origins of it and I never really thought about it until I started kind of thinking about it for this podcast episode I just know that like in my mind what I know that how purity culture has looked in my life and how it's like affected me so for you personally and like I said you can get like
Speaker: as deep or as shallow as you want on this how has purity culture like affected you or like not even like affected like as if I'm assuming that it's had like this horrible negative effect on you but how have you seen purity culture in your life and how has it like affected you either positively or negatively
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, you know, kind of on the deeper end, I won't go too far into this.
Speaker: You know, I feel like before I was married, I definitely like made some mistakes.
Speaker: And like I said, I'm not going to go into that.
Speaker: But I feel like the earth shattering feelings that I had of like, you know, the shame and just feeling like, you know, my worth wasn't
Speaker: you know, the same and, and just like, I don't know the, I mean, and I, and I know a lot of people have felt this way, even if it was just like making out with their boyfriend or is, you know, touching, you know, things like that.
Speaker: And it's like, you just have this like enormous guilt and that kind of just sticks with you.
Speaker: And then you're like, feel anxious when you go to church and things like that.
Speaker: But even more so like in marriage, whenever everything's supposed to be good and okay, like now it's okay.
Speaker: It's like we feel like when we get married, we're going to be able to flip this switch and just be like,
Speaker: okay, I've been taught my whole life that this is, like, taboo and bad and scary and, like, wrong.
Speaker: But then as soon as I'm married, I'm supposed to, like, all of a sudden feel free and enjoy it and feel no guilt and shame.
Speaker: And that just wasn't the case.
Speaker: Like, that's something I've struggled with, like, in marriage because it was so deeply ingrained in my head.
Speaker: And I have a lot of friends that have said the same thing, you know.
Speaker: I mean, and just, like, feeling shame over my body and, like –
Speaker: struggling even now with like oh is this dress like too short or like oh that's gonna show like a little bit of cleavage like is that gonna make people think that I'm like a certain way and so I feel like it really has penetrated so many places in my life and so working to like deconstruct that has been really tough
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think there's like, I do think that there is like beauty and modesty.
Speaker: Like I personally, like I do like, I mean, you've known me for a long time.
Speaker: I, I dress on the modest side.
Speaker: I really do.
Speaker: But also I don't have boobs.
Speaker: So that's pretty easy for me to do.
Speaker: I've never been like, oh my gosh, pull that shirt up.
Speaker: You're showing cleavage.
Speaker: Like I barely have a boob.
Speaker: Like
Speaker: having a kid has no I have to I promise not that anyone needs to know that but like like I literally have like I up until I had Arthur I could wear the sports bras I wore in middle school I've never had boobs yeah I know so
Speaker: Yeah, so, like, I think there is beauty in, like, dressing modestly.
Speaker: Like, I do think there is biblicalness in, you know, dressing modestly.
Speaker: But, like, also...
Speaker: If you're dressing modestly just because you've been told like, oh, well, I will be a stumbling block.
Speaker: I don't dress modestly.
Speaker: That's the wrong reason.
Speaker: I think you should want to dress modestly just as I think like, you know, with all biblical things, you should want to do it to serve the Lord and to bring him glory.
Speaker: But I think it's become so much like, especially at my private Christian school, we had to wear shorts that were no shorter than two inches above the kneecap, not the top of the knee, the kneecap.
Speaker: Like I was out there wearing Bermuda shorts, which again, whatever.
Speaker: Yeah, it was.
Speaker: And it was just like, it was this overthinking of, oh, what do I need to wear?
Speaker: So I'm not a temptation for the boys.
Speaker: Whereas, yeah.
Speaker: The boys, like there wasn't a dress.
Speaker: I mean, there was a dress code, like wear a shirt, but that was it.
Speaker: Like, and at like school swim parties, it was so ingrained in us.
Speaker: Like we were wearing t-shirts over our swimsuits, but the boys were out there in just their swim trunks because we were the problem.
Speaker: We were the reason that boys were stumbling.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so I think that's the problem.
Speaker: Like, yes, like if I ever have a daughter, I will want her to dress modestly.
Speaker: And even with Arthur, I will want him to dress modestly.
Speaker: And that's going to take some figuring out for me because honestly, I've never been told like,
Speaker: what is modesty for boys?
Speaker: You don't have these little modesty conferences, you know, at church for boys.
Speaker: It's only these purity.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It's only for girls.
Speaker: And so it's just like, yes.
Speaker: Like, and I've said this like 15 times now, like there is beauty and dressing modestly, but like do it because you feel that like your body is a temple and like you want to glorify God with your body.
Speaker: Whereas you shouldn't be doing it because you're the reason a boy is going to freaking stumble.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I agree with that.
Speaker: Here's my hot take, though.
Speaker: And you might not agree with me on this.
Speaker: No, that's okay.
Speaker: A lot of the a lot of this purity culture stuff has led into kind of the rape culture in our country of like, Oh, absolutely.
Speaker: No, I totally agree with you on that.
Speaker: you know, what were you wearing that night?
Speaker: Were you asking for it?
Speaker: And I know that sounds extreme, but it's, it's real.
Speaker: Like when I was a waitress in a past life, I had a pretty bad sexual harassment thing that happened.
Speaker: And my boss that was a female, like literally asked like what I did to provoke it and like what I was wearing, what my body language was, you know?
Speaker: And that just like,
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: And she had done the same thing with a coworker.
Speaker: Like somebody had inappropriately slapped her in the freezer, the big freezer.
Speaker: And it was like, well, your jeans are really tight.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: And so it's just like, I know that sounds like hitting me.
Speaker: I'm not kidding.
Speaker: I, and I,
Speaker: If I could go back, I would have handled that situation a lot differently.
Speaker: But I was in a place then where I would stand up for myself and advocate.
Speaker: And I am now that would never fly with me now.
Speaker: But, you know, people think that that sounds extreme when people like post about it, but like it's real and it happens.
Speaker: And it's because people view women in that light and they give us the responsibility of controlling someone else's sexual temptation.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Really wrong.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, and that's why like,
Speaker: Because I feel like when you give that to – honestly, like when you're saying what a woman is wearing has a direct effect on a man's reaction to that, you're giving the man agency over that.
Speaker: You're not leaving the woman like 100% agency over her body, you know?
Speaker: It's like giving permission to the boy like, oh, well, she was wearing spaghetti straps, so that's why I was aroused around her.
Speaker: Like, no, that's bullcrap.
Speaker: Control yourself.
Speaker: If the Bible does tell us to, you know, dress modestly, the Bible also tells us to have self-control.
Speaker: So, you know.
Speaker: I think that kind of, that you had one of the questions on there about like purity culture for guys.
Speaker: And I feel like that, like on the flip side of that, like, yes, like it's their responsibility.
Speaker: But then I think something else that
Speaker: I feel like we've noticed is that it made young guys and boys feel like they were just these sex crazed animals that couldn't be controlled.
Speaker: And so it was up to us to do that.
Speaker: And so I felt it was bad for them, too.
Speaker: And not just for the girls, but like just making them feel like they're just like these monsters that like need someone else.
Speaker: That's so true.
Speaker: And I, yeah, and I just feel like it's, it was just bad for everyone the way that it was taught, you know?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And well, like for girls, it's like, and this is like a whole different, not a whole different topic.
Speaker: It kind of ties in.
Speaker: But like, we're taught to be like B-lady.
Speaker: Like we go to Miss Manners classes and we go to, you know, cause I mean, and I love that stuff.
Speaker: Like I love a good tea party, but like we're taught like,
Speaker: this is what, like, what would mismanners do?
Speaker: We're taught to, like, dress modestly.
Speaker: We're taught to, you know, well, ladylike is, you know, staying clean and being quiet.
Speaker: Not, like, literally never talking, but just, like, keeping a calm and gentle tone in our voice.
Speaker: But when it comes to boys, when they screw up, it's just like, oh, well, boys will be boys.
Speaker: And it's just giving them that mental permission, just like, oh, well, I'm a boy.
Speaker: I don't have self-control.
Speaker: And we're both boy moms now.
Speaker: And that's the complete opposite of how I want to raise my son.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: In the Bible, it doesn't say, thou shalt have self-control.
Speaker: Women have more than men.
Speaker: So figure that out.
Speaker: No, it just says, have self-control.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: It's a fruit of the spirit.
Speaker: It doesn't say it's a fruit of the spirit for women.
Speaker: Boys don't have different fruits of the spirit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, no, if we, like we, if we have to control ourselves, you know, you know, it's just, it's so stupid.
Speaker: It's such a freaking like,
Speaker: What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker: Double standard.
Speaker: Yes, it's such a double standard.
Speaker: And so, yeah.
Speaker: And I think that's one of the biggest, like that you just said the nail on the head, like it just gives them that type of permission to just be like, oh yeah, I guess I'm a sex crazed animal.
Speaker: It's not my fault.
Speaker: It's what she was wearing or, you know, I was just tempted.
Speaker: There was no accountability for them.
Speaker: And I truly don't think it's their fault.
Speaker: I truly think it was the adults and the leaders of that movement.
Speaker: I don't think it was their fault.
Speaker: But
Speaker: looking back on it, like, I think, like, what a cool opportunity you and I have to, like, raise young men that respect women and respect people of all kinds and know what their body does and what's natural about their body and know that they have to be held accountable and have self-control, like you said.
Speaker: And so I think it's cool that we have the opportunity, you know, as boy moms to be, to raise the boys that we wish we were
Speaker: around when we were younger you know right and i think so obviously like my mother-in-law has she has two sons so she you know i married the oldest one and then there's ian has a brother and i think how she actually went about it was really good i mean obviously she never had daughters but um being the pastor's wife they had friends i mean they had kids from the church over all the time and so um she did you know when they were in the pool she was like yeah girls have to wear t-shirts but so do boys
Speaker: everyone had to wear a t-shirt so it wasn't like you know boys get yeah she wasn't like boys get to expose themselves but girls don't and I mean she did say like no bikinis and like whatever she sets the rules but it was the fact that it wasn't a double standard for boys and girls it was like everyone's clothed here because this is for fun not for looking like we're just having fun
Speaker: Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker: I mean, if we're all going to be weird and be soaked down in our heavy t-shirts, like, let's all do it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, like, I can obviously, like, acknowledge the fact that, like, I was once a teenage girl.
Speaker: I was around teenage boys.
Speaker: Even though the Bible says self-control, sometimes there is not much.
Speaker: And so even just like, you know, being a responsible chaperone and being like, hey, like, you know, we're going to do what we can to just make this a fun environment and not turn it into something it isn't.
Speaker: So like I can appreciate that about what my mother-in-law did.
Speaker: And so we've talked about, you know, how you kind of encountered purity culture.
Speaker: I want to talk about like, were there specific examples in your life?
Speaker: Like looking back, you're like, wow, that was super like purity culture.
Speaker: And because we talked about how there's such a double standard.
Speaker: for men and women and so do you remember any specific examples from like growing up how that was just kind of ingrained in your brain um how your worth was tied to your purity like i don't want to bring up like past traumas or anything if that's like not something you want to talk about but i'm just trying to remember like at church like how how are pastors on about that so um
Speaker: And you don't have to name names or anything.
Speaker: I'm just trying to think of examples.
Speaker: I know because people from our church are probably going to listen to this.
Speaker: I remember what immediately comes to my mind was like, I don't know if you ever went to any of like, you know, we would go to like those like girls or like women's conferences.
Speaker: Did you ever go to any of those?
Speaker: I think maybe in high school because I wasn't super, honestly, I wasn't super involved in the church until high school.
Speaker: I was thinking about
Speaker: So like when we would go to those like conferences, there was always kind of the like they would have like breakout groups, you know, like gender specific.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I remember like there being like groups about like purity and things like that.
Speaker: But I don't really remember them being like for boys.
Speaker: Like, I feel like it was just like the girls group.
Speaker: Like, I mean, obviously, if I was at a girls conference, there's only girls.
Speaker: But when there was both.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But like, there was always kind of this, you know, those little breakout discussions.
Speaker: And I feel like the conversation was always kind of the same of like,
Speaker: Kind of like what you said, like your body's a temple.
Speaker: The stumbling block was brought up a lot.
Speaker: You know, things like mod... I would say modest is hottest because it makes me... Oh my gosh, modest is hottest.
Speaker: Leave room for Jesus.
Speaker: You know, don't do anything that you wouldn't want God watching.
Speaker: Like as if God's not always watching.
Speaker: Right, yeah.
Speaker: Whatever.
Speaker: And then like the...
Speaker: the purity rings i don't know if you had one oh i had multiple because i lost one and then i got another one you lost your purity ring gas i know i lost my purity no i left it i actually funnily enough i left it at a swim party um and i never found it yeah and so my mom took me to mardell's to pick out a new one not that she like forced that on me i wanted to like i wanted to pick out a new purity ring
Speaker: Yeah, my parents didn't give me a purity ring.
Speaker: I wanted that because it was like the it thing or whatever.
Speaker: The true love waits thing where like people were like signing contracts.
Speaker: Like I know that my I think my brother was kind of in the middle of that.
Speaker: He is a few years older than me.
Speaker: I know that was like a big thing.
Speaker: That was like a movement to like sign this contract.
Speaker: Like I promised that I'll be sexually pure till merit, you know, whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, so like the breakout groups, the purity ring.
Speaker: those are kind of my two that came to the forefront of my mind did you have any that you were thinking of
Speaker: No, I honestly, and like obviously I'm not a dude, so I can't vouch for whatever they would ever talk about.
Speaker: But I feel like it was always like these girls conferences or like girls night in or whatever.
Speaker: And it would be like fun or like sleepover.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I can't quite remember because that's been like 10 plus years ago.
Speaker: But I just feel like it was always like if we had a girls thing, it was always focused on purity.
Speaker: And it was advertised as such.
Speaker: No one was private about it.
Speaker: But then the boys, it was like, let's go to do things like paintball and play basketball and stuff like that.
Speaker: And like, again, I was never there.
Speaker: I don't know what was discussed, but I feel like it wasn't.
Speaker: purity because if you talk about purity of boys you have to get into pornography I feel like if I was teaching a dude's like purity culture session and like no one wants to touch pornography like that is something that I feel like until recently has not been talked about with adolescent boys but here's the thing that's a thing with adolescent girls too but you would never bring that up oh it is but again you would never bring it up no one wants to talk about pornography for boys or girls
Speaker: You know, another example just came to my mind.
Speaker: The, you said the thing above your knee, like, I think it was like a dollar bill was like above.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It was like on your shoulder or on your knee.
Speaker: There had to be like a dollar bill.
Speaker: I had people measure me before.
Speaker: And I was like, you're tall.
Speaker: Like, what are you supposed to do?
Speaker: Make your own clothes?
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: I literally got sent home from school a couple of times for like the dress code police from a public school.
Speaker: Whoa.
Speaker: Speaking of public school.
Speaker: Our sex ed in eighth grade was taught by a different church in our town.
Speaker: They came in and did the teaching and you can guess what it was.
Speaker: 100% abstinence.
Speaker: We're going to show you the scariest pictures of STDs we can find.
Speaker: Basically, like, you're going to be damaged goods.
Speaker: You'll never be able to get this back.
Speaker: And like, like, okay, abstinence is great and it's a good thing.
Speaker: But scare tactics.
Speaker: That does not work.
Speaker: We did not.
Speaker: And especially like that's so demeaning to people who have already had sex.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And honestly, like the idea of abstinence is a very Christian thing.
Speaker: And then when you're talking in a public school, you're not talking to all Christians.
Speaker: So that's not really – it's not a set moral.
Speaker: That's not an automatic moral for Christians, first off, because, I mean, all Christians are different.
Speaker: But that's not a set moral for everyone in a public school.
Speaker: So that's just so like –
Speaker: it makes it i would i would feel disgusting if i were to be taught that and i had already had sex well and think about the people that have been sexually abused by people in their lives they're probably sitting there thinking the same thing but it was just it blew my mind like in the time i didn't really think much about it but looking back i'm like why did the church teach that out of public i mean we're a big school yeah and we actually had one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the state oh yeah yeah um
Speaker: But it actually is a state by state like law of like if you have to provide comprehensive sex education.
Speaker: I was trying to find I had like a document.
Speaker: I was trying to see if I could find it.
Speaker: And so it's just like while we want them to be abstinent as children and teenagers, that's not always realistic.
Speaker: And so it's like.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: How do we best protect them?
Speaker: Especially like in a public school.
Speaker: Like I just feel like that was so weird.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, and like going back to the teen pregnancy thing, like I feel like we could really cut down on teen pregnancy if we actually taught how a woman's cycle works.
Speaker: Like granted,
Speaker: Every woman is different.
Speaker: Mine and yours are not the same, I'm sure.
Speaker: But I was talking with last week's episode guest.
Speaker: We were just talking about how women can really only get pregnant, I think it's like five to 10 days out of the month on average.
Speaker: Granted, that's, again, different.
Speaker: But if you just taught girls, hey, if you're going to do it, just don't do it on these five days, please.
Speaker: please, for the love of God, like, just don't, just try to control yourself, you know, a few days out of the month.
Speaker: And then like, obviously, like I do want to teach my kids like abstinence because I think, you know,
Speaker: I think that's a biblical like kind of tenant, I guess.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Birth control period.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Obviously.
Speaker: And it's just the safest because you don't know where everyone else has been.
Speaker: Like, you know, even just trying to keep your body like healthy and rid of STDs.
Speaker: And so obviously like that's, I think that's, you know, what a lot of people want for their kid.
Speaker: But at the same time, like you said, like,
Speaker: You can want the world for your kid and things happen.
Speaker: Like they slip up, they are abused.
Speaker: You know, there's a whole multitude of things.
Speaker: And so it's like, no, I'm not just going to go out and buy my daughter birth control pills.
Speaker: But I also want her to be informed about her body and her cycle.
Speaker: And I think that's such a big letdown when it comes to sex ed.
Speaker: I mean, obviously within public schools because –
Speaker: a period one too i think in like fourth or fifth grade and i feel like that was weird like i i feel like that was one of the ones where the boys were like playing dodgeball or something i don't know what they were doing right yeah but you know it's like people think that like your period is so like simple but like you said everyone's is different and like people don't always know like
Speaker: how it works when you're ovulating and what days to avoid.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I feel like I agree with that.
Speaker: Just having that comprehensive education.
Speaker: My mom did that.
Speaker: Did you do like the body book?
Speaker: You remember that?
Speaker: The American girl book.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: The Karen keeping of you.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I, I read that book backwards forwards because like my school, again, private little private Christian school, we didn't have sex ed.
Speaker: I did not know what sex was, how babies were made for a very long time.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: That's the good thing about public school.
Speaker: You just get dunked into everything.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think there is beauty in like the public school system because you really are like, it is so many, it's like a melting pot of people, which is, I think can be great.
Speaker: I do think there's pros and cons to public school.
Speaker: I mean, as a private school kid, both my parents were public school teachers.
Speaker: So like I've seen like the good, the bad and the ugly on both sides.
Speaker: And so
Speaker: But, I mean, one of the pros of public school is, like, you see everything and you get a full dose of everything.
Speaker: And so... That's good and bad, truly.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: We kind of, like, talked a little bit about purity culture for guys, but, like, do you think that guys are as, like, they have this idea as ingrained in their head as girls do?
Speaker: Or is it kind of, like, a one-sided topic?
Speaker: If any guys are listening...
Speaker: you can let me know if I was wrong, but I feel like it's not as bad because like we were talking about the accountability I feel like was more so on our shoulders.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, I mean, and I've talked to my husband about it, you know, he grew up in kind of a similar background and I feel like, like he recognizes it, but I don't think he felt the effects of it as much as I did.
Speaker: Um, even today, you know, um,
Speaker: But I do think that, you know, them having to learn and kind of process through the whole like, I'm not a sex crazy animal.
Speaker: I can control myself.
Speaker: I can respect somebody else.
Speaker: Nobody owes me anything.
Speaker: You know, I don't think every guy thinks like that.
Speaker: But I mean, that's kind of where my mind's going of, you know, kind of learning to like take accountability for their like own impulses.
Speaker: But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: What do you think?
Speaker: I mean, like I said earlier, like I was, you know, I never went to like one like we split up between girls and boys.
Speaker: But I just feel like when even like in a mixed company, when the idea of purity was talked about, it was just very much in like,
Speaker: Like, it was like, guys, control yourself.
Speaker: But, like, girls, don't give them a reason to need to control themselves because the bucks should stop with you pretty much.
Speaker: Like, I don't know.
Speaker: I don't remember this ever being talked about at our church.
Speaker: But I have heard the analogy used in churches before.
Speaker: And I know you're going to cringe when I say this one.
Speaker: The flower.
Speaker: I think, who was that?
Speaker: Was that, it's a famous evangelist.
Speaker: I feel like I want to say John MacArthur, but I don't know if that's correct.
Speaker: Who originally came out?
Speaker: The one that slammed Beth Moore.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: That might make sense, actually.
Speaker: I've heard the analogy before of like, and this is being talked about in mixed company, where the pastor's like, okay, here's a flower.
Speaker: You know, pass that flower around, smell it, look at it.
Speaker: Isn't it so pretty?
Speaker: Doesn't it smell so good?
Speaker: you know, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: And so then, you know, it goes through a multitude of people's hands.
Speaker: And, you know, then he like, it comes back to him.
Speaker: And he's like, you know, now that everyone's touched it and, you know, looked at it and smelled it, and some of you even took a piece of it, it's not as pretty.
Speaker: And it's a little worn out.
Speaker: And it's a little more droopy than it was when I originally passed around the room.
Speaker: He's like, who would want a flower like that?
Speaker: You know, you need to save like, you know, you need to save like your purity for one man.
Speaker: And it's like,
Speaker: When I first heard that analogy, I was like, Jesus wants that.
Speaker: Jesus still wants that flower because Jesus made that flower in the image of him.
Speaker: And no matter what that flower has been through, at the end of the day, he's still the creator and the author of that flower.
Speaker: And for those of you who are not getting this.
Speaker: It's a purity analogy.
Speaker: And they're pretty much saying like girls go around and, you know, oh, don't, don't be touched by another man.
Speaker: Don't give a piece of you to another man.
Speaker: Like who wants that?
Speaker: And so, um, and I just always feel like it was just very directed towards the females in the group.
Speaker: And like I said earlier, like, yeah.
Speaker: Yes, they I do feel like especially the pastors at our church and like the other churches that I've gone to like, yeah, they always did like, you know, we're intentional about, you know, boys control yourselves.
Speaker: But I also feel like it was it was kind of an afterthought.
Speaker: It was like the buck should stop with the girls.
Speaker: They should not, you know, dress or they should not tempt.
Speaker: And it's like, why can't we just all be on equal playing ground?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it seems a little ironic to me.
Speaker: And I know you had a different podcast about this, about like, you know, women and their roles in the church and stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I feel like it seems a little ironic, you know, for people who believe that the man is the head of the household, but like all of this responsibility falls on the woman.
Speaker: And like, I find that to be very ironic.
Speaker: I just, when you were talking about the flower, I definitely heard that before.
Speaker: It brought back a memory.
Speaker: And I don't know if this was at church or if it was at that sex ed thing at school.
Speaker: There was like a piece of tape and they would like stick it, like you would stick it on someone else's arm and you just keep sticking it on people.
Speaker: And then you would spill like the residue.
Speaker: And it was kind of that same message of like, once you've been around, you can't get it back, you know, like, yeah, damaged goods, like, that's what you are, you know, and I, and I feel like a lot of people really need a lot of healing in that area of like, I might have messed up, or I might have done this or that, or I might feel this shame about myself.
Speaker: you know, but like you said, God is, you know, he still loves you and cares for you and created you and still views you as beautiful and whole.
Speaker: And I think that's going to be a lot of my life's work as a therapist is like helping people heal from that.
Speaker: Because I think a lot of people have deconstructed and walked away from the church.
Speaker: And I think that you can deconstruct and reconstruct.
Speaker: And I feel like that's kind of what I've been doing.
Speaker: And so I just really hope to like,
Speaker: Be able to help bridge the gap for people that, you know, feel far from Jesus because of, like, the hurt that the church has caused them and, like, help them to, like, find him again.
Speaker: And that's just kind of, like, what I feel really passionate about right now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, like...
Speaker: I don't think we're here to like completely trash the idea of sex ed within like obviously public schools or even the encouragement of abstinence within a church.
Speaker: And like I obviously like I've already said we I have an appreciation for it.
Speaker: But I think the problem that we have is that so often and I really I think you can make the argument for boys and girls that your worth is like inherently tied back to your purity in your sex life.
Speaker: And it's like
Speaker: There are so many other reasons that we are not worthy of like what Jesus did for us.
Speaker: Like there are so many.
Speaker: And like, obviously, like if you sin, you sin.
Speaker: Like, like, obviously there is sin in the world.
Speaker: We are sinners as humans.
Speaker: We, we sin.
Speaker: And you know, that comes around in many different forms, but like just solely tying your worth in Christ back to your sex life and things that may or may not have been within your control.
Speaker: And that's just, that's the problem that I have because again, like you kind of said it in the beginning, we are taught over and over again, don't have sex, don't have sex till marriage.
Speaker: And it's just, it's put in this bad light and it's like, sex is one of the first things that God created.
Speaker: Like it is beautiful.
Speaker: And obviously like literal life comes from sex.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And just the fact that within, I guess, especially the Bible Belt, I can't really vouch for outside the Bible Belt.
Speaker: But within the Bible Belt, so often it is, you know, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex.
Speaker: And then it's like just this magical like, okay, okay.
Speaker: Now it's good and fine.
Speaker: And it's like, we have got to present this in a different light.
Speaker: We have got to present this as, yes, abstinence is biblical and the Lord does want us to save our self for that one person that we marry.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: also god doesn't want us to cheat god doesn't want us to lie god sure as that doesn't want us to view pornography and hey like god doesn't want us to lie and god doesn't want like you know 10 commandments god wants us to respect our parents greater than the other ones like they're all yeah exactly like as soon as a sin in the lord's eyes and they're all serious like i think when people say like they're all sins in the lord's eyes it's just kind of like
Speaker: like belittles how serious like sin is.
Speaker: And it's what separates us from Jesus.
Speaker: And I think we should put more emphasis on the fact that like we are screwed up, messed up people.
Speaker: And every day we do not deserve the grace that God gives us.
Speaker: But one of the,
Speaker: like one of those things is not worse than the other.
Speaker: They are all sinful in God's eyes.
Speaker: So I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but we did have a few of like the Instagram question box submissions.
Speaker: And you guys have really got to step up your game on submitting questions because I don't want to have to submit questions to my own freaking podcast.
Speaker: But a few of you did submit and I think that that was good.
Speaker: Someone just said, oof, I had a lot.
Speaker: And then
Speaker: Said nothing.
Speaker: I was like, I want to hear your thoughts.
Speaker: Too many words.
Speaker: Too many words to say.
Speaker: Yeah, like DM me.
Speaker: Maybe she wasn't my DMs.
Speaker: One of my followers did DM me outside the question box and she just like had some thoughts.
Speaker: She says, you know, just some thoughts.
Speaker: I am so thankful that I had a youth pastor in high school that separated purity from sexuality.
Speaker: He and his wife would always remind us that if purity had a direct correlation with having sex before marriage or sex itself, then we would all become impure when we got married.
Speaker: But rather, we don't have our own purity aside from Jesus, and all of our actions have the ability to pull us towards or away from him.
Speaker: I had a lot of friends that had crazy experience with ways their pastors approach sexuality, especially with females.
Speaker: Sean, her.
Speaker: And I'm glad that someone was there to remind me that what I did or didn't do wasn't going to change God's perception of me.
Speaker: I am very glad that she had such great examples.
Speaker: And the fact that like the youth pastor and the wife did that as like a tag team.
Speaker: I think that's so important.
Speaker: Usually the youth pastor is like viewed as, you know, the leader of the youth.
Speaker: And the fact that it was both a husband and wife kind of like tag teaming it, that I feel like people sleep on that.
Speaker: And that's really important to do.
Speaker: I really like that.
Speaker: That reminds me of someone, youth pastor's wife, that was very candid and open with us as girls.
Speaker: And I shout out to you.
Speaker: You know who you are.
Speaker: Her sharing some personal experience and feeling like she was actually being like open and honest with us.
Speaker: And that was like at their house for some thing we were doing and
Speaker: And I really appreciate that.
Speaker: And I always really appreciated her.
Speaker: They did tag team it.
Speaker: That specific youth pastor and his wife were always very, I never felt put down by them.
Speaker: Yeah, they were great.
Speaker: Someone said, I wish the church put as much emphasis on purity for boys as they do girls.
Speaker: And I mean, there's nothing really more to address there, but yeah.
Speaker: Purity culture should also address porn addiction.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: For men and women.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I feel like it was probably college before I knew that women could be affected by pornography.
Speaker: That was such, and I barely even knew what pornography was even in high school.
Speaker: I knew it was bad and I knew that boys did it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I feel like that's just so important.
Speaker: Like honestly, of all the things we could address in purity culture conferences or purity conferences or whatever, porn should be in there because especially now, I mean, I guess maybe back in our day, it wasn't as prevalent because social media was barely a thing and I don't think it was as accessible, but I feel like these days it's just
Speaker: so so freely accessible and that's something that I hope that more churches and youth groups are addressing I think that goes back to the point of like men are allowed to be more sexual than women like because no one brought up that point of like younger females like struggling with pornography or things like that or the m-word dare I say oh my gosh you can say the m-word on my podcast
Speaker: But really, that was another thing with purity culture.
Speaker: The boys are inherently more sexual.
Speaker: Women are just as sexual type of beings.
Speaker: That just kind of brought that to my mind.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's so true.
Speaker: It's almost expected that the woman... I don't know how to say this super nicely...
Speaker: it's almost expected that in purity culture that the woman is the stumbling block and the man is the sex craze maniac.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's never expected to be the opposite way.
Speaker: And again, I think it's because men and women are wired differently.
Speaker: Like, but God created sex for both.
Speaker: And so I think you can come about, like you can come about like,
Speaker: talking about this to men and women a little bit differently, but I think the same point should still be hit on.
Speaker: Yeah, the premise is... Right.
Speaker: I feel like within church purity culture, there were just two different premises, and that's why they separated us as boys and girls.
Speaker: It was just never something that we could talk about in the same room.
Speaker: And I do think to an extent that's fine, because especially middle school girls and boys, there's just going to be a lot of giggling and, you know, oh my gosh, he's a penis.
Speaker: I think...
Speaker: I think that that is appropriate for a time, but I feel like once you're older and if you're going to expect kids to be more mature, talk about sex in the same room with boys and girls.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: God made it for both.
Speaker: It's in the Bible.
Speaker: If you can talk about the Bible in the same room.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I agree.
Speaker: Anyways.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: One of my friends asked, do you think Christians who grew up in purity culture have a worse view of sex than non-Christians?
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: I would say so.
Speaker: Because it's the idea that like, oh, it's bad.
Speaker: It's bad.
Speaker: It's bad.
Speaker: Oh, wait.
Speaker: Now it's good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think like when I said like we didn't have comprehensive sex education, we don't understand how our bodies work.
Speaker: And so I think that a lot of Christians have had like sexual dysfunctions like vaginismus is a big one, which is just like pain when you're having sex.
Speaker: Oh, OK.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's a big one because you feel the shame.
Speaker: And so like your body just like tenses up.
Speaker: And so like I know like quite a few people that didn't have sex.
Speaker: So they were married that have struggled with that and have had to, you know, do like pelvic floor therapy and stuff.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's a big one.
Speaker: Or just like having anxiety and not knowing like how to like let yourself go.
Speaker: enjoy it because of all the shame wrapped around it if i'm right yeah yeah do you do you feel like you had like this fantasy in your head of like oh my gosh like my wedding night's gonna be perfect like i thought about these years and then you get there and you're like okay this is not like yeah i wouldn't say like bad
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like I wouldn't say I thought about it like a lot for like for my whole life because I was more worried about just having a boyfriend.
Speaker: I was like, well, if I can get a boyfriend first, that'd be great.
Speaker: But once we were engaged and like going through premarital counseling and talking about the reality of a wedding night and then Ian and I, we actually did have a very healthy, like a lot of healthy talks about sex.
Speaker: We were very open about sex because we were very open and
Speaker: from the get-go, when we started dating, like, that was going to be reserved for marriage for us.
Speaker: So, like, we were very open about it.
Speaker: But I don't think we – I think because we were so open and talked about it, not, like, a lot, we didn't just talk about sex all night, but, like, we just had a very, like, good communication about it.
Speaker: I think that's the extent of where mentally I got with it, and it was never, like, a reality to me.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: And so it was, like, I would be, like, oh, yeah, you know, we're going to have sex on our wedding night.
Speaker: But then once it came down to it, I was like, what in the H-E-double hockey sticks is happening right now?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I was freaked out.
Speaker: And maybe that had something to do with purity culture.
Speaker: I obviously was not.
Speaker: No, maybe no.
Speaker: But like, just the idea of like,
Speaker: doing like I don't know that I also like you're letting go of a part of yourself too because you felt like once you lose it you can't get it back and like even though you lost it to the person you wanted to lose it to like I hate that phrase you didn't lose anything but you know what I mean right you didn't lose anything yeah it was just like this like emotional feeling like
Speaker: That just happened.
Speaker: And I think that's healthy because it wasn't just like, you know, meaningless sex.
Speaker: It was like, you know, this is biblical.
Speaker: This is what's supposed to happen.
Speaker: That's what a husband and wife are supposed to do.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I don't even know how we got on that subject.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: Oh, yes, that Christians have a different like perspective of it that have been like inundated with purity culture.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: That was a very long answer to say yes.
Speaker: But yes, I agree.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What was another question?
Speaker: Oh, we just touched on this pretty much too.
Speaker: Do you think purity culture affects views of sex into marriage?
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: I want to even repeat what I just said because yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: do you think this is kind of like these next two questions kind of go together is purity culture more damaging than helpful and do you think anything healthy or productive came from purity culture i think the purity culture movement itself was harmful i don't think the intent of it was bad yeah i would yeah and i think like the
Speaker: emphasis on abstinence that came from purity culture was good or maybe intended to be good how they presented it was poor I believe um so yeah and I think that can be said of a lot of movements I do think there's a lot of movements that are well intended but what they turn into or just kind of maybe at their core it's like that's not that's not it sis that's not going to go over well in the long run um
Speaker: like I think of the me too movement I think a lot of negative stigma has been around that I think the intent of it was good to give a voice to survivors you know but I think it sometimes movements can just be bad okay one last question how can we talk to our children about sex in a healthy way that's a good one I'm gonna let you answer this because you're the therapist and you're probably better educated than I am
Speaker: Well, I'm still learning, but I think having continual conversations is important.
Speaker: So like when they're little, I think calling body parts by what they actually are is important.
Speaker: Don't say cookie or muffin or whatever.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Cupcake, nothing like that.
Speaker: We want to be clear about what our body parts are.
Speaker: And, you know, we want to be honest and make sure and tell our kids like,
Speaker: If anything happens, someone touches you, you know, things like that, like you need to tell me and like, don't feel ashamed, you know, things like that.
Speaker: And then just being honest as they get older with age appropriate.
Speaker: If you want to use books, like, you know, we did the body book or whatever, making sure they understand how their body works and.
Speaker: you know, that, you know, sexuality is normal.
Speaker: I think that's what I'm going to do is just be very like honest about how his body works, you know, and encourage him to ask questions.
Speaker: Cause I think like our generation of like our parents, I think they just like, it was just kind of taboo cause it was taboo with their parents to like talk about it.
Speaker: So I just want to make sure that my kids feel like we can have that conversation with
Speaker: you know, and then as they get older, you know, have the conversations about abstinence is great.
Speaker: I would love for you to be abstinent, you know, but if you feel like you can't, like, let's talk about it, you know?
Speaker: So I think just like sexual education is important.
Speaker: And just like,
Speaker: not leaving it up to someone else like the church or school, like, like let those conversations be had around the, like the dinner table and like at home.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I think that's what I would say.
Speaker: Well, I've had you on here for way too long.
Speaker: I'm so sorry to take such a big chunk out of your day.
Speaker: But before I let you go, tell us where to find you on social media.
Speaker: So the listeners can connect with you and the
Speaker: I also asked this of last week's guests and I really liked it.
Speaker: Do you have any like podcasts or books or social media people that you like to follow or listen to or read from on this topic that we've talked about today?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I've been in the process of transitioning my Instagram to more of a professional page.
Speaker: So you can find me at iced coffee and therapy.
Speaker: I'm always drinking coffee.
Speaker: And I've been kind of starting to share more therapy related content and coffee, obviously.
Speaker: I really like the podcast Girls Night by Stephanie Mae Wilson.
Speaker: She went on the World Race, which is the same thing I did several years ago.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And she is really good.
Speaker: She has really good hosts and stuff.
Speaker: It's not like strictly about purity culture, but it's just like Girls Night conversations.
Speaker: That's probably my favorite podcast.
Speaker: I also really like Simplified.
Speaker: That's another podcast.
Speaker: And then on Instagram...
Speaker: I really like this account that's called Deconstructing Purity Culture.
Speaker: The account owner is not a believer anymore.
Speaker: But it just has good information as far as like what that's looked like, history about it, things like that.
Speaker: But I'm sure there are plenty that are still like, you know, faith based.
Speaker: But I just found that account to be really like informative.
Speaker: Yeah, I definitely want to start sharing more about it.
Speaker: I've been getting some good like feedback.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it was like the day that you shared about like one of your first posts or maybe a question box about purity culture.
Speaker: I was like, oh, yeah, I don't want to hold the podcast.
Speaker: I'm so glad you asked.
Speaker: You could probably talk for hours.
Speaker: Oh, for sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: Well, before I die of a coughing attack, I'm surprised I made it this far without losing it.
Speaker: But I always like to ask guests before they leave, what is just one piece of your heart that you hope that listeners leave with today?
Speaker: I would say that, you know, no matter where you're at, as far as
Speaker: If you're just now realizing that you were a victim of purity culture or if he's completely deconstructed, I just want to encourage you that you're not broken and you're not damaged and that there is healing from this and that you can find peace with God, with your sexuality and with your body and in your marriage if that's a struggle too.
Speaker: I would just encourage everyone.
Speaker: I know this is like really obvious, but go to therapy and like talk about it to someone, like process it.
Speaker: I've found that to be really helpful for me.
Speaker: I've been seeing the same therapist for five years.
Speaker: So anyways, just remember that you're not damaged goods and you're not that crumpled up flower and there is healing that can be found.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: That's so good.
Speaker: And I think it's such a simple message, but it's one that we need to be reminded of every day.
Speaker: But well, Brooke, thank you so much for coming on the episode today, just sharing, really just sharing your heart and soul with us.
Speaker: That was really vulnerable.
Speaker: And I really appreciate it when like you and other guests come on and just really are just real and authentic with our listeners.
Speaker: I think that's something that's
Speaker: really admirable and something that we don't really see very often in society, especially with social media and, you know, just being fake sometimes.
Speaker: So I really appreciate your vulnerability today.
Speaker: Thanks to everyone who joined us and listened.
Speaker: Just join us back next week for a new episode of Wholeheartedly Her.
Speaker: Bye, friends.
