Transcript
Speaker: Hello, hello, friends.
Speaker: Welcome back to the Wholeheartedly Her podcast.
Speaker: I'm your host, Laura Pryor, and today's guest was just one for the books.
Speaker: I have followed Lauren and her work and her life for so long, and I am so glad I had the honor of having her on a podcast episode.
Speaker: Lauren McAfee is the founder and visionary of Stand for Life and also serves as ministry director for ministry investments at Hobby Lobby.
Speaker: Lauren is the author of Only One Life, Not What You Think, Legacy Study, Beyond Our Control, and Created in the Image of God.
Speaker: She is currently pursuing a PhD in ethics and public policy with Dr. Russell Moore as her supervisor, studying the Imago Dei as applied to women's health.
Speaker: Prior to her role at Hobby Lobby, Lauren worked for her father, Steve Green, as he founded the Museum of the Bible in Washington, D.C.,
Speaker: During her time at the museum, she served as curator, artifact collection manager, and director of community engagement.
Speaker: Lauren has a master's of arts in pastoral counseling and theological studies, as well as a master's of theology.
Speaker: She and her husband, Michael, live in Oklahoma City and enjoy reading and traveling.
Speaker: Together, they have two daughters, Zion and Zara, through the blessing of adoption.
Speaker: You guys are not going to want to miss this episode.
Speaker: It is a
Speaker: real honest truthful discussion with Lauren about her journey through infertility and adoption and everything in between.
Speaker: I am so excited for you guys to be able to hear our discussion so grab your seat at the table and welcome back to the Wholeheartedly Hurt podcast.
Speaker: All right well welcome to the podcast Lauren.
Speaker: I am so excited that
Speaker: You just gave me the honor of having you on my podcast.
Speaker: So I'm just going to turn it over to you and let you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself and your life.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker: It's so fun to get to come on.
Speaker: I appreciate what you're doing with this podcast.
Speaker: I've went back and listened and looked at some of the episodes and it's super fun.
Speaker: So thanks for willing to invite me.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I'm Lauren McAfee and I live in Oklahoma City and have always lived here, grew up here.
Speaker: And I'm one of six kids.
Speaker: And so I have like tons of sisters.
Speaker: I have four sisters and one brother.
Speaker: And right now all of my siblings live close, which is super fun that we're all in one place because we have been all over.
Speaker: I mean,
Speaker: I've had a sister that lived in DC for a while.
Speaker: One lived in LA and I lived in New York city for a bit, but we're all back in Oklahoma city.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I get to work with my family, a family business, which is a hobby lobby.
Speaker: So I work at a hobby lobby corporate office and no one's ever heard of it.
Speaker: So it's fun.
Speaker: I, you know, get to see like my dad and my grandpa and,
Speaker: cousins and my uncles and aunt, you know, all kinds of family members that work there at the office.
Speaker: So that's where I work though.
Speaker: My role there is I'm a director of ministry for the ministry investments office, which Hobby Lobby is basically Hobby Lobby's philanthropy office.
Speaker: So it's a lot of fun to get to be a part of the ministry aspect of what Hobby Lobby is doing.
Speaker: And then I also wear some different hats outside of my role at Hobby Lobby.
Speaker: And I founded a nonprofit called Stand for Life.
Speaker: And it really is seeking to get the church engaged on the pro-life issue in a really holistic way so that the church is reaching out and the church is seeking to be engaged with their community to serve women who are facing unplanned pregnancies.
Speaker: So whether that's a woman who is maybe like a single mom and just needing support,
Speaker: It's encouraging churches to have a ministry for that, whether it's, you know, a church starting an adoption or foster care ministry out of their church.
Speaker: It's, you know, supporting women and families in that way.
Speaker: If it's a woman facing an unplanned pregnancy who just needs someone to walk alongside her, you know, you can partner with an organization that has a program for doing that.
Speaker: So it's Stand for Life, this nonprofit that I founded, is really seeking to do that, just get the church engaged holistically around the life issue.
Speaker: So that's, yeah, a lot of fun, a great honor to be a part of just important work like that.
Speaker: And it also intersects with my passion interest for adoption and foster care work, which I've personally been involved with.
Speaker: So my husband and I have adopted two girls.
Speaker: Our two daughters have come to us by way of adoption and grateful to be their mom and blessed to get to be their mom.
Speaker: And we're in the adoption process again.
Speaker: And so, yeah, so I wear the hat as of mom and wife as well.
Speaker: My husband is the founder of a nonprofit that he started that is called Inspire.
Speaker: And they do, they curate travel experiences for groups and families that are intended to deepen faith.
Speaker: So with Inspire and his work, they want to take people to trips and
Speaker: And do a really discipleship focused work.
Speaker: So helping people to have an experience that is deepening their faith by getting them out of their normal environment and going to a new place, whether it's Washington, D.C.
Speaker: or Israel.
Speaker: Or last year they did a trip to Turkey and Greece and kind of followed the missionary journey.
Speaker: Oh, it's amazing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's so cool.
Speaker: I thought that he only did DC.
Speaker: So I'm really, so we actually went on a similar trip.
Speaker: It was another company that did Turkey, Greece, and Rome.
Speaker: It was the same.
Speaker: It was probably the same one.
Speaker: Very similar.
Speaker: We loved it.
Speaker: It was so good.
Speaker: Those experiences are so formative.
Speaker: They can be just really formative.
Speaker: And so, you know, my husband is also a teaching pastor at our church.
Speaker: And so,
Speaker: As a pastor, he just, he loves helping people engage with the Bible.
Speaker: And, and so he gets to do that through these trips, which is a lot of fun.
Speaker: And then the other hat that I wear, sorry, it's like 50.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: PhD student studying ethics and public policy.
Speaker: So looking to wrap that up in the next year and a half.
Speaker: So I, yeah, I have just always been a lifelong learner and love learning.
Speaker: And that has meant for me formal education.
Speaker: And so I've
Speaker: Yeah, I've been doing the PhD for a couple years.
Speaker: My husband's also a PhD student.
Speaker: So it's in the same topic.
Speaker: We're both studying ethics, public policy.
Speaker: So it's funny to these students alongside him.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: Yeah, we love it.
Speaker: So that's kind of what you guys have.
Speaker: Yeah, do you guys, since you're in sort of the same PhD program, do you guys have a lot of the same like
Speaker: subjects you discuss yeah like here I'll share my notes if you'll share your notes type of thing so the the so the fun thing is that we have had like each other to talk about our school stuff with because we're doing a modular program where we're not on campus full-time because our seminary is in Kentucky and we're in Oklahoma right we have to go to campus one week a semester but so since we're not getting that on campus like
Speaker: classmates and in-person professor experience, it is nice to have each other to talk with about these things so that it's not like completely isolated, just you kind of these things we've known to talk to about it.
Speaker: So yeah, we've, we've really enjoyed that.
Speaker: So we've taken all of our classes together.
Speaker: So all the, we've taken all the same classes.
Speaker: And so we have
Speaker: Yeah, the same reading lists and all of that.
Speaker: So our focus has been different in terms of the research we're doing.
Speaker: So his research is more focused on the history of religion and the founding of America.
Speaker: And mine is more focused on a theology and ethic of women's reproductive health.
Speaker: Well, very different kind of focuses, but- That's so interesting.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's super fun to see how we've kind of each-
Speaker: taken different paths within the same program for our research and study.
Speaker: And both of them have overlapped with our work.
Speaker: So him with his DC experiences and kind of focus on the history and impact of religion, Christianity in America, definitely overlaps with his work, taking people to DC for tours.
Speaker: And then mine with the pro-life work that I do, women's reproductive health and kind of think about the ethics of reproductive health.
Speaker: has had overlap.
Speaker: So yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So cool.
Speaker: So, so cool.
Speaker: Well that, yeah, you do wear a lot of hats.
Speaker: That's what I was putting on my Instagram yesterday about you.
Speaker: I was like, wait, she does this and this and this and this.
Speaker: I know she's written a few books.
Speaker: Like, wow, she does so much.
Speaker: Like I just, again, I'm just so, so, so glad you, you were able to come on the episode today because I just always wanted to talk to you just as, you know, I grew up just like knowing your family and then just kind of started following you
Speaker: I don't even know when it was.
Speaker: Maybe when your sister was my volleyball coach.
Speaker: That was like over 10 years ago.
Speaker: Yeah, Erica was my volleyball coach.
Speaker: Well, I guess your sister-in-law.
Speaker: But yeah, Erica was my volleyball coach in high school for a little bit.
Speaker: And then I followed her and I think I just started following all the sisters.
Speaker: And I just, I feel like I've learned so much from you.
Speaker: So obviously you're just like a wealth of information and just so much knowledge about so many different things.
Speaker: I feel like I specifically want to talk about just your journey to adoption.
Speaker: I feel like I have a lot of moms that follow this podcast and a lot, I think when I've just kind of discussed in the past, the subjects of adoption, I've had a lot of like interest and not specifically like, oh, I'm adopting or I want to adopt.
Speaker: I want to learn more, just like general interest about the process.
Speaker: And I feel like it would be so educational to moms who are looking to either adopt or even moms who have experienced it on
Speaker: unplanned pregnancy and are very curious about, you know, what does it look like if I place my child for adoption?
Speaker: So I just kind of want to step through your whole process because I know it's been what, like a, it's been a very long process I know for you guys.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We first started the adoption process over 10 years ago, actually.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's been 10 years.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So for me, the adoption process and the journey was something that I had thought about for a long time.
Speaker: because it's been a part of my family.
Speaker: So my grandparents adopted one of my aunts, and then my parents adopted one of my sisters.
Speaker: And so for me, it was, I've seen this generational journey with adoption.
Speaker: And I definitely, when I was like a teenager, thought, you know, that could be something that I wanted to do and actually really felt like, leaned more towards like, I think that this is something that I will do.
Speaker: But, you know, wanted to, of course, be prayerful about it and, you know, see where the Lord leads.
Speaker: And so whenever I was dating my now husband, he knew all of that, too.
Speaker: Like he knew that adoption was going to be something I wanted to us to pray about.
Speaker: And he was always like.
Speaker: open to that, which I'm grateful for.
Speaker: And he, he grew up, my husband and I met when we were seven years old.
Speaker: So Michael and I like grew up together.
Speaker: And so he saw my family walk through the adoption process with my sister.
Speaker: And he was, he was a part of my life during that.
Speaker: So he was definitely kind of obviously seen firsthand the, just, yeah, the experience of my family adopting.
Speaker: So whenever we got married, I, I,
Speaker: I remember we were young.
Speaker: We were 21 and still in college.
Speaker: So Michael and I got married a couple weeks before our senior year of college started.
Speaker: And so we finished school.
Speaker: We kind of got settled into some jobs after school.
Speaker: And then whenever it came time, we were thinking about growing our family.
Speaker: The first thing that I did was say, like, I think we should pursue adoption.
Speaker: And at the time I was really drawn towards international adoption and you had to be 25 to, 25 was kind of the youngest you could be to start the adoption process with any of the international countries that were open to international adoptions at the time.
Speaker: So on Michael's 25th birthday,
Speaker: If we had was 24 and he was turning 25, I was like, hey, I like took him to dinner and I was like, hey, I think we should start looking at the adoption thing.
Speaker: And he was like, oh, like we hadn't been talking about it, but I had done the research and realized like, oh, we're like finally hitting that window where it's even optioned.
Speaker: So brought it up to him and he was like, oh man, like, yeah, let's think about it.
Speaker: Let's take a month to pray about it.
Speaker: I was like, okay.
Speaker: And then the next day he had printed off the application for adoption.
Speaker: The next day?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: So yeah, so that began our journey and that was, yeah, over 10 years ago now that we first began pursuing adoption.
Speaker: And
Speaker: The adoption journey, whether it's international or domestic, so those are kind of the two pathways you kind of at the high level, you choose whether you're going to do an international or domestic.
Speaker: Both pathways are filled with challenges, but are, you know, of course worth it.
Speaker: And for us pursuing international adoption, it took seven years before we actually had our daughter, Zion, who we adopted from China.
Speaker: So that was just an unexpected,
Speaker: long wait.
Speaker: I think it was, I think our seven year wait was probably one of the longest that our agency had ever seen at the time, but it was because we had started with an adoption from a country and then the country closed their international program when we were three years into it.
Speaker: And so then we went back to square one and we started with a different country and then they weren't moving forward either.
Speaker: And then we had to switch countries again.
Speaker: So it was just, yeah, it was hard because we were really excited to be pursuing adoption and growing our family that way.
Speaker: And then obviously, you know, year after year after year, we kept praying for this to happen and it just wasn't, it wasn't happening.
Speaker: And it was...
Speaker: During that seven years, we also decided we wanted to pursue trying having children biologically as well because we were, you know, we had always wanted to grow our family both ways.
Speaker: Adoption is how we wanted to first start our family.
Speaker: So we started pursuing that and we also then realized infertility was going to be our story.
Speaker: So yeah, years, years and years of waiting, both for pursuing both adoption and
Speaker: Pregnancy and none of them happening.
Speaker: And then we got our daughter, Zion, from China.
Speaker: And she's amazing.
Speaker: She's five now.
Speaker: And then after that, we pursued a domestic adoption that ended up being a contested adoption.
Speaker: And we had our son with us for a year.
Speaker: before the court, it was during the COVID years.
Speaker: And so the courts were really up.
Speaker: And so the courts 12 whole months to determine where our son Ezra would go.
Speaker: So that whole time he was in our home and we like brought him to the hospital, the birth mom chose us to be the parents and she wanted her son to stay with us, but it was a, it was a different person that was contesting the adoption.
Speaker: And so after having our son for 12 months, the court,
Speaker: gave full custody to this other person.
Speaker: So we lost him.
Speaker: And then we still continued pursuing the domestic adoption.
Speaker: And then we got our daughter, Zara, who is just about six months old now.
Speaker: So yeah, so we've had three kiddos in our home, but we're currently parenting two.
Speaker: And yeah, I would say of adoption, I mean, for anyone that's considering adoption, it's for sure...
Speaker: can be painful.
Speaker: There will be pain points, but it's, it's also one of the most, I mean, beautiful things to become a family and to have the blessing of being a parent through adoption.
Speaker: And I, I,
Speaker: I would encourage people not to be scared away from adoption because of how obviously hard and complicated it can seem.
Speaker: It definitely grew us in terms of needing to trust in the Lord with what he was doing and all of it.
Speaker: And actually, my husband and I were also authors.
Speaker: I've written a few books.
Speaker: And our next book is coming out in November, November 7th.
Speaker: And our next book is called Beyond Our Control.
Speaker: And it's really a lot of our experience of reflecting on our own ideas of what we thought we had control over in our lives.
Speaker: And then coming up to these situations in life where we realize like,
Speaker: we actually have very little control over things happening in our lives, whether it was infertility, like we had no control.
Speaker: We just, we were trying everything and nothing was working.
Speaker: And like, we couldn't control that situation in our lives.
Speaker: It was a pain point, whether it was the international adoption process taking so long, we just had no control over that.
Speaker: And like, we thought like, oh, you like you pursue adoption and it works out within at least a few years at the longest.
Speaker: And like, it happens.
Speaker: And that just, it wasn't, and there was nothing we could do.
Speaker: And same with our domestic adoption experience.
Speaker: We had our son for 12 months and we were praying that we would get to be his parents forever, but we had zero control over what the final outcome would be.
Speaker: So whenever people walk through these circumstances in life where things are beyond their control, it's painful.
Speaker: And it's usually those moments that can be really shaping for our faith and learning to trust in the God who is in control.
Speaker: But that can be conflicting whenever you're walking through a situation out of your control that's painful and realizing, okay, God is in control of this, yet he's allowing this pain.
Speaker: And so how do we reconcile that with a good heavenly father who loves us?
Speaker: And, and so in our book, we kind of walk through what that was like for our journey, going through all these different pain points and then trusting in a God who is in control and seeing his goodness and in all of it and his character.
Speaker: So Beyond Our Control, yeah, it's the name of our next book.
Speaker: And it, it really was, it came out of these adoption experiences as well as yeah, struggles that we we've walked through.
Speaker: in the midst of all of it.
Speaker: So yeah, but for, for the other thing you mentioned was kind of women who might be facing unplanned pregnancy and considering an adoption plan as an adoptive mom, I, I obviously I haven't been the one on the other side of that equation where I was the woman making a decision about an unplanned pregnancy, but I have so much respect for women who
Speaker: who do make adoption plans and it's, it's not an easy thing to do for sure.
Speaker: It's, it's very, there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in that.
Speaker: And so I, I just really respect and admire birth moms who do give life to that child in their womb.
Speaker: And, and if there are circumstances that are causing them to feel like can't parent to then make an adoption plan.
Speaker: And I, yeah, I'm so grateful for the birth moms of all of my kiddos.
Speaker: And I don't,
Speaker: know them personally.
Speaker: I wish I could and just tell them how much I care about them and that they have given me such a sweet blessing in my girls and that I would tell my birth moms that I love them because I do.
Speaker: I just, yeah, I mean, her loss and her sacrifice was one of my greatest gains and I'll never be able to fully fathom that and
Speaker: and what that has meant for the woman's life who, who made the adoption plan.
Speaker: But I, yeah, I just wish I could meet them and tell them how much their girls that I get to parent mean to me and that they're my greatest blessing.
Speaker: So yeah, it is, I think a really brave thing to do is to make an adoption plan for a woman.
Speaker: And I just am, like I said, just really respect women who,
Speaker: who do choose life.
Speaker: And then, you know, give, even if it means going through the hard steps of making an adoption plan, they've given life.
Speaker: And that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: Oh, your words are just so like life-giving.
Speaker: I love just listening to your story.
Speaker: You've, you have such a powerful story.
Speaker: I know it's just the Lord.
Speaker: Like, I know we always say like, Oh, everyone has such a powerful story, but it's just such evidence of the Lord working through you and your family.
Speaker: I want to go back kind of to when,
Speaker: At your very beginning, you and Michael, or I guess you really first came to Michael like, okay, I want to adopt.
Speaker: Was there just kind of like a, I want to, or is this more of like a calling for you guys?
Speaker: Like, when did you know, like, this is right, this is what we're supposed to do?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I, like I had mentioned, like always had kind of thought this, you know, might be the path for me.
Speaker: But of course it was, you know, when you're actually,
Speaker: there in the moment of like, okay, is this actually what we're going to start pursuing or, you know, what, what is the Lord leading us?
Speaker: So I, I was not particularly focused on deciding whether or not we were supposed to pursue adoption.
Speaker: I was, I think I was open to it and considering it.
Speaker: And our church did a book club, like, um, uh, you know,
Speaker: small group of people who are all reading a book together and discussing it on Sunday mornings during the Sunday morning class.
Speaker: And the book they were reading was called Orphanology by Tony Morita and Rick Morton.
Speaker: And so I, you know, considering that I was at least like interested in the adoption foster care space, I was like, yeah, I'll do that book club.
Speaker: So it was in reading that book, I, I,
Speaker: Like I am not a very like emotional, expressive person.
Speaker: I don't cry very often.
Speaker: Like I, you know, just not typically where I'm at.
Speaker: And I could not keep from crying when I was reading that book.
Speaker: And I remember I would be driving, just driving in my car and think about the book that we were reading and thinking about adoption.
Speaker: I would just start crying.
Speaker: Which again, was very unusual for me.
Speaker: So it was like, okay, clearly I heard someone say once, like the things that move you to tears is obviously like something that the Lord is doing in your life around.
Speaker: So it was kind of like, okay, clearly this is something that the Holy Spirit is moving me on.
Speaker: And so we did the book study that fall.
Speaker: And then my husband's birthday is in December.
Speaker: So we had just kind of finished this book and it was like, man, like I can't, I can't stop thinking about this.
Speaker: So it was more of like a step of obedience of like, I, this is something I cannot avoid because of what the Holy spirit, how just the Holy spirit was moving in my own life.
Speaker: That is what then, you know, had me bring it up to my husband in December at his birthday.
Speaker: So I do think it's something that, you know, whether you call it a calling or just kind of something that the Lord leads people to, I do think...
Speaker: It is a specific path.
Speaker: I mean, adoption is not, I would say, for everyone.
Speaker: I mean, not every person that is called to adopt or should adopt.
Speaker: But I do think every Christian is called to be caring for the orphans and the fatherless.
Speaker: We see in scripture, multiple places in scripture where believers are called to care for the vulnerable, the widow, the orphan.
Speaker: So, you know, even if that's not an option, there's lots of ways that people can do that.
Speaker: You know, some of them I talked about earlier, whether it's caring for a single mom who has a child or whether it's supporting the foster care system and being a mentor to a foster child or financially supporting organizations that do foster and adoption work.
Speaker: So there's, you know, there's lots of ways people, whether time or finances can serve.
Speaker: One of the ways though is adoption and foster care, being a foster parent.
Speaker: So for us, it was definitely the Lord led us to that path.
Speaker: And yeah, it was definitely a step of obedience.
Speaker: Like I knew that this was something the Lord wanted us to do because of all of that.
Speaker: And it was, you know, thankfully for my husband, also something that he,
Speaker: the Lord then quickly moved his heart toward as well.
Speaker: And obviously it was like 24 hours instead of a month.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He was like, yeah, give me a month.
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: I was like, yep, let's do this.
Speaker: So yeah, I definitely, you know, it is a big thing.
Speaker: And so it's one of those things in life, of course, you have to be prayerful about and seek the Lord's guidance.
Speaker: But I guess I would always encourage people to be open to it and consider how the Lord might be
Speaker: calling them to be caring for orphans and the vulnerable.
Speaker: And for some people that may mean being an adoptive parent or a foster parent.
Speaker: So yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Prayerfulness for sure.
Speaker: And allowing your heart to be open to where the Holy Spirit leads.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: So you were talking about how, you know, it took you seven years to get to your daughter.
Speaker: And so obviously there's obstacles that come with adoption.
Speaker: How do you navigate those?
Speaker: How did you recognize God opening and shutting doors?
Speaker: Because it's like, when you want to adopt and, you know, it's like, I'm going to do everything possible I can to get to the child that I believe is my child, the child that I believe that God is, you know, leading me to, or, you know, however that works.
Speaker: How did you just navigate those closed doors with grace?
Speaker: And I don't know, I just, I've never been in that position.
Speaker: And I just kind of, I can't imagine how
Speaker: I mean, a country just shutting its doors like, okay, like that's an absolute closed, like nailed shut door.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I think it's similar to people who walk their journey of infertility or my friends who have also had a longing for children yet are single.
Speaker: And so they've, you know, I've had been able to connect with women in all of those situations who have this longing to be a mother and
Speaker: yet whether because of their own singleness and not being in a place where they can have children, infertility or the adoption process taking a long time.
Speaker: It's definitely, I mean, all of those scenarios are just, there's this deep longing to be a mother and to have your child, yet it's not happening.
Speaker: That is a really painful place.
Speaker: And every day and every month that goes by, it's just a,
Speaker: a continued disappointment of, okay, I don't have this.
Speaker: And for us, you know, that was seven years of that.
Speaker: And I think the thing that it was, there were two things.
Speaker: One, it was really hard to see so many of our friends moving into that phase of having the pregnancy or having the adoption go forward or growing their family.
Speaker: While we felt like we were just stuck on the sidelines, like wanting this in our lives.
Speaker: And it's a good thing, like wanting this good thing.
Speaker: Yet it wasn't, the Lord wasn't making it happen in our story.
Speaker: So to, it was hard to watch others moving in that and being willing and able to celebrate them and to celebrate with them.
Speaker: That took a lot of heart work, honestly, to still have joy and
Speaker: gratefulness for my friends who were finally, you know, becoming moms and parents.
Speaker: That's not something that I think is an immediate thing.
Speaker: I mean, you know, jealousy, frustration, bitterness, all of those things were what I wanted to sit in because I was sad.
Speaker: I was sad.
Speaker: I was angry.
Speaker: I was feeling hurt.
Speaker: because I didn't have this deep desire of my heart.
Speaker: And so I had to allow myself to focus on where my joy comes from, which isn't from having all the things my heart desires, but my joy comes from knowing my heavenly father and creator.
Speaker: And so it was, you know, continuing to turn my focus to him and asking him to work in my heart,
Speaker: to allow me to then have joy and celebrate with my friends.
Speaker: Because two, I mean, I was going to be missing out on the gift of being able to celebrate with friends if I never got to that point and to get to be a part of my friend's journey into parenthood and all of that.
Speaker: And like, that's what a gift to be in community and celebrate others.
Speaker: And so I would be robbing myself of that if I didn't ever kind of get to that place where
Speaker: Yes, it's okay to still be sad for myself and to hold both the personal sadness with the happiness and joy for others.
Speaker: And those don't have to make one go.
Speaker: It's like, if I was happy for my friend, that doesn't mean it negates my own sadness, but we can hold both.
Speaker: So navigating that was one of the things that was a process during that entire season.
Speaker: And then secondly, it was reminding myself to trust in a God who I knew was powerful enough and could allow this to work out for us.
Speaker: He could have allowed us to reach a pregnancy.
Speaker: He could have opened all the doors for adoption, yet it wasn't happening.
Speaker: And so, you know, how do you reconcile that in your head with a God that, you know,
Speaker: is keeping these good desires of your heart yet isn't fulfilling it and trusting, learning every day to trust in God who is sovereign and providentially had purpose for what he was doing in our lives.
Speaker: And that, again, it was like a daily process.
Speaker: And for sure, there were seasons and moments when
Speaker: just the grief of it all was hitting with such intensity that it did not feel even possible to go to God and to trust him or to be a good friend to those in my life that were having their babies.
Speaker: But it was giving myself grace in those moments and then not giving up of continuing to look to the Lord and wanting to focus on him.
Speaker: So
Speaker: it's yeah it's hard it's a process but it's yeah worth it to continue to focus our hearts on on god that was such a good answer like i don't even know how to like respond to that that's so good because i feel like so many times we of course just as humans wonder like why would a good god who desires good things for our lives not give us good things when we ask for it and it's like especially when like you've stated you felt like
Speaker: the Lord was leading you to adoption.
Speaker: You felt drawn to this and you know, that's from the Lord.
Speaker: And so it's so hard to reconcile in your mind.
Speaker: Like, why is God making me wait when I know he's called me to this?
Speaker: I know this is from him.
Speaker: Those are such good just reminders, even for just life in general.
Speaker: I know I didn't put this in our notes,
Speaker: But on that note of you walking through infertility and a long adoption process, two things that most people only walk through either or, how can other, especially moms, but just other brothers and sisters in Christ, other families, help and pray for those who are walking through those journeys either side by side or just in and of themselves?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, that's a lovely question because I –
Speaker: I had a lot of friends who were wanting to be very supportive.
Speaker: And so they would ask me like, how can I...
Speaker: be here for you in this season, especially for my friends who were, you know, finally they were getting pregnant or they were moving forward with having their kiddos.
Speaker: And so I, I always, I appreciated when people would ask me.
Speaker: So I had someone recently asking like, Hey, me and my best friend, we were both trying to get pregnant at the same time.
Speaker: I got pregnant and she's been now walking through infertility for, this was like a couple of years after the friend had had her baby and her other friend was still
Speaker: walking infertility.
Speaker: Like she was saying like, how do I be there for a friend?
Speaker: And I was like, you should ask her like every, every person processes these things differently.
Speaker: And so like, you should ask your friend and I'm sure she will appreciate that you care enough that you want to know how you can best support her in achieving for her.
Speaker: This was, she was just achieving her second pregnancy and her friend was still, still want hoping for one, her first pregnancy and
Speaker: So certainly asking, I think like my friends or family members who have also walked either infertility or different losses, in being in close proximity to others who have had their own pain points in the pregnancy or adoption space, I've just observed how we all, every person is unique.
Speaker: And like, that's beautiful.
Speaker: And God created us all unique and different, but that also means we all walk through grief differently.
Speaker: And so, you know, for me in my grief and sadness about still being in the waiting in our adoption and still not having a pregnancy, it meant a lot to me whenever my friends would ask me just like, hey, how are you doing with this?
Speaker: Because for me, it can be a very unique experience.
Speaker: grief to walk not having a child because it's not something that's seen.
Speaker: It's like whenever you lose, like if your parent passes away or someone you know dies, it's like there's a clear loss that people kind of have a category in their head and there's like a funeral, there's this moment commemorating this significant loss.
Speaker: But when you're walking in fertility, like there's nothing people can see
Speaker: to remember that you're in this pain.
Speaker: And so for, for friends just to be willing to remember me, remember my pain and see my pain was very meaningful because it validated for me, like, yeah, like I, this is hard.
Speaker: Like this is something that
Speaker: It can feel lonely to walk because it's, again, like not a visible, tangible thing.
Speaker: But for my friends that knew, it was, yeah, very helpful.
Speaker: So, I mean, I also had friends, you know, ask me to, you know, when they were going to have a baby shower or whatever, like, hey, like, is there anything I can do to help you consider it?
Speaker: Because they knew that baby showers are too hard whenever you're in infertility and waiting for an option.
Speaker: It's like, okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Again, like here's this reminder, this huge reminder of like, I don't have what I want and they do.
Speaker: So that was always meaningful as well as I, a lot of my friends, whenever they were pregnant, they would mention it to me in a moment that they knew I would have space to kind of process that in, in a way that there weren't a lot of other people watching to see how I responded.
Speaker: So, you know, my best friend, when she was achieving her second pregnancy and I was still, you know, not, I didn't have any of my babies.
Speaker: She had me over and told me just privately, like her and I, before they did the whole, you know, announcement to other friends and putting on social media so that I would have the space to process that.
Speaker: before, you know, I was having to respond in front of other people or anything like that.
Speaker: So I think all of those are just examples of ways that friends were just considering me, considering my emotions and pain and being thoughtful about it.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: And like that goes to show it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It doesn't even have to be like this big gesture.
Speaker: I think a lot of times we think like, oh, if my friend has
Speaker: walked through infertility or walked through a pregnancy loss or walked through, you know, they're going through this big, long, drawn out adoption process or whatever it might be.
Speaker: It has to be this big, like, I'll bring you an eight course meal or, you know, I'll do all your dishes.
Speaker: And while that's great and fine, I think just like considering like so many people just don't think like just considering their feelings or their thoughts or emotions and letting them process those, however is best for them can sometimes, you
Speaker: be the best.
Speaker: Speaking as a postpartum mom, like even for me, postpartum was not what I thought it would be.
Speaker: I didn't think a lot of my postpartum training, I was like, I didn't even consider that before I had Arthur.
Speaker: And when people just let me rant or talk about things, that's what meant the most.
Speaker: Like, obviously I love, you know, not having to do some dishes sometimes or not having to do my own laundry, but it was so nice.
Speaker: And people just thought about the little things.
Speaker: just, you know, your feelings and your emotions and such.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: On the note of adoption, I know this is kind of a contentious point within the adoptive community.
Speaker: And as a family member of family members who have fostered and adopted or fostered, and then the child has gone back home with a family member, how do you feel about the term foster to adopt?
Speaker: Like if a family is going into foster care with the intention of
Speaker: adopting.
Speaker: How do you feel about that phrase and that mindset?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think nuance around these conversations, I think is always important.
Speaker: So certainly for some people, when they say foster to adopt, it will mean something different than someone else who says it.
Speaker: And so I think having clarity about what we're intending, what we're trying to communicate is always helpful.
Speaker: I think in adoption and foster care spaces, I think it's always important to
Speaker: to look at ways that we can use language that gives the most dignity to all parties involved.
Speaker: So a lot of my work in the pro-life space for churches is focused on providing a theological foundation for the Imago Dei, which means image of God.
Speaker: And in that, so in Genesis 1 in the Bible, God created man and woman, it says, in his image.
Speaker: So human beings were created in God's image, and that's different
Speaker: than every other created thing in the world.
Speaker: So one of the things that Christianity from scripture offers in its worldview is this
Speaker: inherent dignity and value to every person because they are image bearers of God, their creator.
Speaker: So that's a really beautiful thing because that means that every person should be deserving of dignity and respect and has worth because of just they're an image bearer.
Speaker: So whenever we think about the adoption and foster care space, I think it can often be tempting for people to villainize different
Speaker: parties within the process.
Speaker: So whether it's someone in the adoption triad, so in the adoption space, there's what's called the adoption triad, where you have the three parties involved in an adoption or foster care situation.
Speaker: You have the child that's the adoptee or the child in foster care, the adoptive or foster parent, and then the biological parents.
Speaker: So we always want to talk about each point within that triangle with respect and see them for their dignity.
Speaker: So yes, in foster situations, there's a lot of brokenness.
Speaker: And going back to the book of Genesis in scripture, we live in a world that we see is affected by sin because in Genesis chapter three, the
Speaker: Sin enters the world in the fall, what's called the fall.
Speaker: And so we live in a reality that is affected by brokenness, by sin, by all these really challenging situations.
Speaker: And so we have to navigate these conversations, caring about giving dignity to people, understanding the complexity of what we're dealing with, with sin and a fallen world.
Speaker: So all I had to say, getting back to the kind of question about foster to adopt, I, you know, I think it's a
Speaker: a worthy thing to enter being a foster parent with the intention of, of adopting someday.
Speaker: Cause there, cause, cause there's, there is a distinction there.
Speaker: So some, some parents begin fostering with the intention that they would be open to adopting a child that's in their care, or you say, no, I'm just going to be fostering and I'm going to have a, you know, foster children, but without the intention of, you know, being open to an adoption situation someday.
Speaker: Both are worthy paths.
Speaker: We need people that are fostering and know that they're never going to adopt, but they're going to give a safe place and a loving place for kids to land for a season.
Speaker: And also we know that there are situations in foster care where it's not going to be an option for that child to go back to their parents or their biological parents or a biological family member.
Speaker: And so there are going to have to be families that step up and say, okay, we will move forward with adoption.
Speaker: So I think having clarity, too, about the foster to adopt is people's concern is that it would sound like they're wanting a trial run for a child and deciding, you know, is this child worthy of being adopted?
Speaker: And so I do think that that can be problematic when it seems that it's communicating, you know, we're judging whether this child is worthy or not.
Speaker: Because we always want to use language, like I said, that is giving dignity and value to a child.
Speaker: Certainly there will be foster situations where a family, even if they're considering adoption, the Lord's not going to have that be that that's their child and they're supposed to just be a foster parent.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: I think it's wise to use language that would be giving dignity and value to that child and considering them, of course, worthy of being brought into a family and pray for that child that they would have a safe and loving family.
Speaker: And if that's possible with their biological parents, like that's obviously wonderful for children to get to reconnect with their biological family.
Speaker: And that's a good thing because we are intended to be, I mean,
Speaker: in the families that God put us in.
Speaker: But again, knowing in our world, that's not always possible.
Speaker: And so how can we love every child and care about them and prayerfully consider, okay, Lord, if this is open to an adoption situation, is this the path that you're leading us to?
Speaker: So I don't know if that answers necessarily clearly, but yeah, I think my encouragement would be always consider the way we're talking about this and realize that these are huge lives we are talking about and to have great care and dignity in the language we use.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think, excuse me, I think the way I've heard it said is kind of two ways, like, oh, I would just like a trial run with the kid, and obviously, like, you know, that's, you know, not being considered a child necessarily, or it's used in a term like, oh,
Speaker: I'm going to foster them.
Speaker: But I know I assume the outcome will be adoption, which like you said, we always want, or at least if it's possible and best for the child, we want that child to go back with their biological family.
Speaker: So that's not always the best in goal.
Speaker: And so that's the two ways I've kind of heard it be like contentious within the adoptive community.
Speaker: Again, like I'm not
Speaker: in the adoptive community, but just seeing family members be a part of that.
Speaker: I just always, you know, wonder, I know that, that, that phrase carries weight depending on who you are.
Speaker: And so I feel like that was a very good explanation of that because of course we don't always know people's true hearts.
Speaker: It's just like, Oh yeah, I'm fostering with the hope of adopting.
Speaker: And that's not a bad thing.
Speaker: It's never a bad thing to be like, I hope to give this child a good outcome and a good family.
Speaker: Obviously, I know that you guys have been a part of that as well.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that other example that you gave, I do think, again, it's like, you know, I think that ways that people use language might infer that they're not giving dignity either to the child in that, like, we want to like test it out and see if they're worth it.
Speaker: or to the biological parent of like, we're hoping to adopt so that, which, which almost could mean like, we hope that those biological parents fail in getting their child.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's always, always there's fully dignity for those bio parents.
Speaker: And like, we want good outcomes for bio parents because we want all people to be flourishing and to have positive outcomes.
Speaker: So just because someone has a hope to adopt, it's like, I think we have to talk about that in a way that doesn't infer
Speaker: we want someone else to fail, right?
Speaker: To that second point that you made.
Speaker: So yeah, that's really good to bring up that other aspect.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's kind of how I always interpreted it.
Speaker: And obviously, like I said, like you never know people's true heart when they say something, you know, you just kind of have to, you have to know the person, you have to discuss that with them.
Speaker: But when I worked for or with an adoption and, well, they were really an adoption facility and they also did like Crisis Pregnancy Center up in Kansas, a lot of the times I feel like
Speaker: people just never really thought about the biological families.
Speaker: I just, I feel like they always assume like, oh, well, they're just in a bad way.
Speaker: And we really need to like almost rescue their children from them.
Speaker: And that's not always the case.
Speaker: Granted, yes, there are some bad people out there who shouldn't have a licensed parent.
Speaker: But so often when a parent is placing their child for adoption, there aren't terrible people.
Speaker: They just recognize that they are not in a capacity at that time in their life to parent a child.
Speaker: And
Speaker: I would venture so far to say that that is even more brave and more compassionate and caring to place your child for adoption because that's just, you're going through, I mean, as a woman who knows like how taxing pregnancy can be and even especially postpartum, you're sacrificing and giving up a piece of your literal body to be a blessing for another family.
Speaker: I know you know that very well.
Speaker: So I just, I don't think that people always consider the feelings and the mindset
Speaker: and the sacrifice of the biological family.
Speaker: And so I think that's so important to remember when you're going into this.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah, that's well said.
Speaker: Yeah, right.
Speaker: Again, it's like giving, caring and giving dignity to those parents who, whether they're making an adoption plan or in the foster situation or having their children removed from their home.
Speaker: It's like, those are real people who are facing some challenging circumstances that
Speaker: you know, in my own experience, getting to know my son's birth mom, man, like she, I mean, literally she was in just unimaginable challenging circumstances that I just, for her to make a decision for life and to make that adoption plan, I'm just, I really love her so deeply and care about her.
Speaker: And
Speaker: I'm so grateful for, for what she did and giving her son life, but also like, man, like she was in some really challenging circumstances that are very admirable that she was so brave and courageous to, to walk that path.
Speaker: And it's like, it wasn't, it wasn't even, none of it was her fault.
Speaker: It was like, she was, she had a really hard life and she faced her own really challenging losses that, you know, were beyond her control.
Speaker: And so walking through, um,
Speaker: you know, her journey of having an unplanned pregnancy in the midst of her challenging circumstances definitely helped shape me and how I think about biological parents and birth parents and the real challenges that they're facing when they're, they're making these decisions.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I think definitely grew my empathy to be walking alongside in real life with a woman who was in that situation.
Speaker: And so,
Speaker: I think that that's what you're getting at.
Speaker: It's like, we really have to, we can't demonize these parents that are, you know, either again, having their kiddos and having to go into foster care or make an adoption plan, but really like they're, they're human beings and they're facing challenging circumstances.
Speaker: And what can we do to care for them?
Speaker: Well, in the midst of that, I think is the question we should be asking.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Well, I feel like you've just given us such a great, like,
Speaker: So many great thoughts to think about.
Speaker: You've shared your story so well and your passion for women and the orphans and just families and people in general.
Speaker: I love your work.
Speaker: I love obviously following you along with your family.
Speaker: You guys are just always all over the place.
Speaker: I love watching how you incorporate motherhood into having a professional career and being a PhD candidate and writing books and having your own nonprofit.
Speaker: There's just so many hats that you wear.
Speaker: How do you
Speaker: balance all this I I like I'm sitting here I'm like okay I got up I fed my kid breakfast he didn't really nap I'm recording a podcast is the day over like what time is it is a bedtime yet and you're over here writing like eight books at one time and you know have a PhD and two kiddos and a marriage and how do you do it all
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, I think there's, I don't, I don't necessarily feel like balance is the right word for it.
Speaker: Cause there's definitely times where I feel like things aren't balanced, but I think it is learning, you know, how to prioritize things and, and then pursuing the passions and the opportunities that the Lord has given.
Speaker: And so I, for, for my own life, like, I think we all have different callings in terms of what we should and shouldn't be trying to take on and,
Speaker: I think there are certainly seasons where I've had to say no to more things because I, yeah, I was doing too much.
Speaker: So at the end of the day, though, I think it is prioritizing.
Speaker: So like my faith and then my family are the most important things to me.
Speaker: And so prioritizing those things and then
Speaker: I have a lot of excitement about these other things that I get to do.
Speaker: Like it is life-giving to me to get to do the PhD work.
Speaker: And yes, it's like it's work and it's tiring at times.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: But I, I, I do love it.
Speaker: And so I think getting to be doing all like writing books, doing the PhD, doing my work are things that I am very,
Speaker: passionate about.
Speaker: And so they are life-giving.
Speaker: And so that I think means I have capacity to do them all at the same time in a way that if I was doing something, I think that was very draining.
Speaker: I don't know that I'd have enough energy to do some of these other things.
Speaker: So I realized that's like a privilege that I have been able to do these things.
Speaker: And that wasn't always the case.
Speaker: There were seasons in my career that I was doing work that was not life-giving to me.
Speaker: And I certainly
Speaker: I wasn't doing some of these other things.
Speaker: And so I, I, you know, was just prayerful that Lord, you know, I, I want to get to write books.
Speaker: Like I want to have these opportunities and I want to be doing this certain type of work.
Speaker: And similar to the waiting in the adoption process,
Speaker: It was like I had to wait on the Lord to open doors.
Speaker: And I was I had to do my part to work towards those things and to pursue, you know, whatever the steps were to try and get me toward things like the being able to write books.
Speaker: But it meant waiting a lot.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I guess I'd say women should not feel like they have to do it all.
Speaker: Women don't have to be, you know,
Speaker: cooking all the perfect meals and the kids are perfect little angels and their house is clean and they have the full-time career too.
Speaker: Like my life is crazy.
Speaker: My house is a chaotic mess right now.
Speaker: And like, that's fine.
Speaker: Like it's okay.
Speaker: Like we're doing the things that are I'm passionate about and we're going to try and clean up the house in between, but like life's not perfect.
Speaker: It's messy.
Speaker: It's not always balanced, but you know, you just try and be faithful with what you do have.
Speaker: And I think, yeah,
Speaker: That's my encourage.
Speaker: Just be faithful with what you have.
Speaker: Oh, for sure.
Speaker: And like, that's great.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker: Now you're talking, you're preaching to the choir here.
Speaker: I attempted to introduce egg to Arthur this morning.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: It was fine, except 85% of it ended up on the floor.
Speaker: So I was literally mopping up egg as he's throwing it on the floor like child.
Speaker: And then I gave him yogurt.
Speaker: And of course that one, it was just, you know, literal.
Speaker: It's a literal picture of my life right now, but it's a good mess.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's what people ask me how life is going.
Speaker: I'm like,
Speaker: it's busy and it's messy, but it's honestly a really good messy.
Speaker: And I'm finding more joy in motherhood.
Speaker: And I'm just so thankful for, you know, the privilege that it is to be a mom.
Speaker: And I'm just so, I'm so glad we as women get to experience that.
Speaker: It's an experience like no one else.
Speaker: And regardless of if you have a biological child or adopted children or both, or however, if you're just a motherly figure to friends or family members, I think there's just such a joy that
Speaker: women can get out of that, that so many other, I mean, honestly, when we say men don't get it, they really don't get that.
Speaker: And that's such a privilege that God has chosen us to be mothers.
Speaker: And so I love that.
Speaker: Well, before I let you go, I know it's been almost an hour and I really appreciate you giving up an hour of your busy life.
Speaker: Where can we find you on social media?
Speaker: Where can we find your books?
Speaker: Where can we find your nonprofit?
Speaker: Just tell us all, and I'll link these in the description.
Speaker: So it's not like you have to rattle them off perfectly, but
Speaker: Where would you like us to connect with you and find your work?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So people can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Lauren A. McAfee.
Speaker: That's my handle.
Speaker: And then I also, my website is laurenamcafee.com.
Speaker: So if people want to find me, you can find me there.
Speaker: And then my nonprofit is just standforlife.com.
Speaker: So yeah, love to see people connect with what we're up to and what I'm up to and get connected on social media.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Can we find your books like on your website or where can we find those?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker: So my book is going to be, it's like anywhere.
Speaker: So if you go to Amazon, Beyond Our Control is the name of my next book.
Speaker: And then my other book is Not What You Think.
Speaker: So you can find both of those on Amazon.
Speaker: Beyond Our Control will come out in November.
Speaker: So people can pre-order that now from Amazon and it'll show up in November once it's released.
Speaker: But the book website is also beyondourcontrolbook.com if people want to actually read a little bit more about it and see what the book is about.
Speaker: And also super random side note only because I'm in DC.
Speaker: My bet one of my best friends lives in DC.
Speaker: You host a conference in DC as well.
Speaker: Don't you at the museum of the Bible?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So Lumina, that's right.
Speaker: So Lumina hat to add to the file.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So Lumina, a women's conference happens in Washington, DC and it is, um, it's at museum of the Bible.
Speaker: So it's a very cool experience that women get to come to a women's conference and hear a great speakers.
Speaker: This year we're going to have Jenny Allen speaking, I'll be speaking.
Speaker: And they also get to do a tour, a like VIP tour of Museum of the Bible in their time.
Speaker: So you can come to this women's conference and get both experiences, like great speakers and worship, as well as the opportunity to have this tour of Museum of the Bible.
Speaker: And Museum of the Bible is for, if anyone hasn't,
Speaker: learned about it.
Speaker: You can find out about it like museumofthebible.com, but it is an incredible museum with artifacts and people can really see and experience the Bible in a very unique way that hasn't previously been possible.
Speaker: So I hope, I hope women would want to go, but Lumina Women's Conference is the name of it.
Speaker: Perfect.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: So fun.
Speaker: Maybe I'll have to come, you know, just hop in.
Speaker: We've been to the Bible before, but of course we didn't have a fun personalized tour.
Speaker: We just kind of like...
Speaker: Oh my gosh, this is so, like, there's so much to see.
Speaker: We kind of put, yeah, we kind of put a little too much into our day when we went.
Speaker: We were like, wait, we only have like, well, when I went into it, I was like, oh yeah, four hours should be enough.
Speaker: And like three and a half hours later, I was like, oh my gosh, I think we only made it through half.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So having someone that can guide you through it is like a game changer because it is massive.
Speaker: Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker: It's actually one of the top 10 largest museums in DC, Museum of the Bible is.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: That is not shocking to me at all.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So if people are interested in Lumina, you can go to luminawomen.org.
Speaker: That's the website.
Speaker: And it'll have information about there about the conference.
Speaker: So yeah, Jenny Allen, Elizabeth Woodson, who's another great Bible teacher.
Speaker: They'll be teaching.
Speaker: Oh, she's great.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And Davy Flowers is going to be doing the worship.
Speaker: So she's with Worship Initiative, which is what Shane and Shane do.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So cool.
Speaker: So, so cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, the last thing I always like to ask my podcast guests is if you, you know, if you have one piece of your heart to really leave listeners with, and I kind of want to tie my last question in with this is like, if you could leave them with a piece of your heart, but maybe like something that you would also tell yourself like 10 years ago when you first started your journey through adoption and infertility, and you were just, you were so much younger as a young married woman and desiring to be a mother.
Speaker: what would you say to yourself?
Speaker: What would you say to a woman who is maybe in a similar phase in her life right now?
Speaker: Just give her a little piece of your heart.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, the thing that I think has been really impactful in my life is understanding what I talked about earlier about the Imago Dei, kind of this understanding of myself as an image bearer of God.
Speaker: It not only has affected the work that I do and that I want to
Speaker: see all people with dignity and care about human dignity issues.
Speaker: And I'm personally involved in that.
Speaker: But it's also shaped how I view myself, like my own identity.
Speaker: So as I truly, fully believe in my own identity as an image bearer and that I have inherent dignity, value, and worth, and that my creator loves me, knows me, and cares about me,
Speaker: That impacts me and how I view my own personal identity in a significant way.
Speaker: And then it also motivates me as I look out in the world in whatever I'm doing.
Speaker: So for moms, whether it's like how we see and treat our kids, our spouse, our friends, our community, whether it's, you know, impacting your work and whether you're able to either work full time, like I do occasionally in human dignity work or,
Speaker: just caring for others that we interact with in the office or at our community center or at our churches.
Speaker: That image-bearer-ness has just been kind of the theme of, I would say, my past decade that has transformed everything, how I see myself and my own value, because my value is not determined in the work that I do or accomplishing enough or having the clean house or being a mom.
Speaker: My identity is set.
Speaker: And that's can't be taken away.
Speaker: And so that's just a beautiful thing that I hope listeners would see and dive into deeper to understand their own value and how that can shape everything about your own personal identity and how you interact with the world.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: That's so good.
Speaker: And I feel like I just feel like so many people could use a little reminder like, hey, no matter who you are, no matter what phase of life you're in, no matter where you are, even when
Speaker: on terms of Jesus, like you're still an image bearer of God, whether you like it or not.
Speaker: And I just feel like if we all viewed each other in that way, our world would be at least a little bit, a little bit of a better place.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And yeah, such a good reminder.
Speaker: This was so fun.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm grateful for what you're doing in this podcast and just the conversations you're having.
Speaker: It's really lovely.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for giving up part of your day.
Speaker: I really appreciate it.
Speaker: I'm so excited for everyone to hear our conversation.
Speaker: It's been great.
Speaker: Thanks again, Lauren, for giving your time, your wisdom, such truth.
Speaker: You spoke such truth today, and I know it's all from Jesus.
Speaker: Thanks again for coming on.
Speaker: Listeners, thanks so much for tuning in this week.
Speaker: Hope to see you back in a couple of weeks because now we're moving to every other Wednesday because, again, you know, life is crazy.
Speaker: Life is messy.
Speaker: But, yeah, thank you guys again for coming.
Speaker: spending part of your day with us.
Speaker: Hope to see you next time.
Speaker: Bye friends.
