Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Perfect Tides: Station to Station (w/ Meredith Gran)
92 Plays5 hours ago
Ben & Jess are joined by game designer Meredith Gran to discuss her new game, Perfect Tides: Station to Station.
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
You can visit Meredith Gran's website here: https://meredithgran.com/
Perfect Tides: Station to Station is available here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2088810/Perfect_Tides_Station_to_Station/
Watch us on Twitch!
Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
Give us a review, they help people find this show! Unless you hated it, in which case, don't.
Talk with us on Discord!
https://discord.gg/ve9fqjgPp2
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Meredith Gran and "Perfect Tides" Sequel
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello, everybody, welcome to Quest Quest. The adventure game podcast. not waste any time. Let's not waste any time. no time to waste.
00:00:39
Speaker
I say as as a cat is on my lap putting his his face up on like rubbing it up against the mic. He's done now. um I enjoyed that. It was like the theme song was playing. It was really lovely. Two of you together. i That's right.
00:00:56
Speaker
we have We have a third person here. i ah Welcome. Meredith Gran. Hi, guys. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining us.
Humorous Cat Interruption Stories
00:01:08
Speaker
Meredith just released at the time of recording a week ago i the sequel to the game Perfect Tides, Perfect Tides Station to Station.
00:01:20
Speaker
um And so we're we're thrilled to have her here and talk about Talk about the game. And now the cat is chewing on my headphone cable. So I'm going to have to remove him. it's Oh, no. Wow. but do way Yeah. No.
00:01:38
Speaker
that's That's the fifth cat I had to cut remove for podcast crimes. This this podcast yeah burns through more cats than you can imagine. It's it's really awful. um We should really just stop recording it if I'm honest. But, you know, the the public demands it. um They don't care how
Nostalgia: Play-Doh and Parenting
00:01:56
Speaker
many cats. They they want the real you. Okay. yeah You know how people love content. And what we do here is churn out content. This is just the cost of doing business. Yeah.
00:02:08
Speaker
You got to burn a few cats. we're we're We're content extruders. And I've just been sitting on that because I just like saying extruders.
00:02:19
Speaker
You know? I'm like one of those Play-Doh extruders that like you cram the Play-Doh in and like it puts Play-Doh spaghetti off the other side. Like that's what I see myself as when it comes to content. Do you still have one of the, like, as as a father, do you still have Plato? Oh, yes, as a father. That's why I have one of them. Well, that's the context in which I own that. your Your daughter is, I assume, beyond Plato this Yes. Yeah, yeah. She's beyond Play-Doh. She's into Play-Doh now. ah the The philosopher, that's more of her speed. No, I yeah i definitely still have one of those. And I will say there's something deeply satisfying about smushing some Play-Doh through that thing. It's all that gets me through some days.
00:03:03
Speaker
I can't keep that stuff from drying out. lody How do you keep it wet? The Play-Doh. I mean, that it is wet. I mean, that are not wet. It is dry. It's dry. It's horrible. It becomes like crummy. stuff Like literally crummy. I need it with my hands. And eventually I think it's the perspiration from that process that like re-hydrates it.
Chicago Winters and Reflective Moments
00:03:29
Speaker
It's best not to think too much about it.
00:03:31
Speaker
yeah Yeah. It's like bread. Yeah. It's like bread. You're making all that effort for Play-Doh. Yeah. Yeah. But it's worth it when you when you get that feeling of extruding that you're looking for. See, it's it's a fun word to say. You you had to say it too.
00:03:48
Speaker
Yeah, no, I did. Yeah, you said and i was jealous. i was like, God, wish I'd said that first. how How are you doing today, Meredith? Oh, I'm fine. it's It's been a pretty nonstop day. i like, you know, I was riding around in a bus in the cold until just a few minutes before I came over here. So this is really, really nice.
00:04:06
Speaker
I was, so i live in Chicago and it's it's always been cold during the winters in Chicago, like extremely so.
00:04:18
Speaker
And I don't understand why we have elevated trains, elevated train stops, like designed, like playing station to station, which has the New York subway system in it.
00:04:33
Speaker
I'm like, why why, must this very cold city have you stand a story up? In the winter, when it's windy and miserable. And i mean it's just like, that's where you're, you think your most profound thoughts, like, when you're suffering on those platforms, like you can, you probably can conjure all these really specific memories of standing on those raised platforms, like the wind blowing your hat away. And just like having some experience or some thought that is just going to like stay with you for the rest of your life.
00:05:08
Speaker
Oh man, that's a really good answer. That's, that's, that's why they did it. Yeah. But now I am thinking.
00:05:20
Speaker
That's why Robert Chicago, the founder of the city decided we need to elevate this train.
Family Dynamics in Board Games
00:05:26
Speaker
What if it was a subway, but it was above ground and not just on top of ground, but further above ground than that.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah. You'd think some real thoughts up there.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, unfortunately, now I'm thinking of i'm I'm you just gave me a very visceral flashback of, ah oh, this is relationship isn't working out. That's a great place to think that thought specifically. I never knew this would be so easy. oh man. Yeah.
00:06:01
Speaker
um I, but ah yes, i also raced back here in the the cold and ah I went to the nearby pia place to my home racing here.
00:06:17
Speaker
And they're one of those places that criminally doesn't like, if you get their PETA plate, if you get like the chicken shawarma, such as I did, they give you enough for three people. ah And I just want that enough for one person amount.
00:06:32
Speaker
yeah did you complain loudly yeah i made a scene no they can charge you more for less would you like that it it was it's it was twenty dollars like i am getting i mean that's just food for days that's true it is that's true But speaking of ah things occupying our time for days, ah and I'm going to throw this in a joke. Oh, I'll throw it to Jess. Jess, what have you been playing? I'm wide open.
00:07:07
Speaker
Oh, man, Ben, I'm going cheat again this week on what I've been playing. I'm going to talk about, and Meredith, this is why we've been you've been playing music. You can kind of you know, like this is to get us in the mood to talk about what we've been playing. Ben composed this himself. He's something of a musician.
00:07:23
Speaker
feel it. But...
00:07:28
Speaker
going cheat. I've been playing another tabletop game because I've been stuck inside with the family with the weather all week. Daughter's been off from school, so there's been lots of good board game time. And we have been playing the Survivor board game based on the hit reality competition series Survivor. This game's designed, the box says, by Jeff Probst himself. So if if the big J-man has signed off on it, you know it's good.
00:07:56
Speaker
um It tries to emulate the strategy and deception, the backstabbing of real survivor, but I found myself very quickly in, I think, the most dad-coded situation possible, which is we started the first game and immediately my daughter and my wife said, we're a team and we need to vote dad out immediately.
00:08:19
Speaker
which has been the pattern for every game so far. So really, don't get to play this. Like I just play like one round and then I'm quickly better. You just play your life. Yeah, I know. And I did one time, strategized and told enough lies that I was able to vote out my wife while pinning it on my 12 year old daughter.
00:08:40
Speaker
At which point, both of them, once they realized a few rounds later that I had done this, really got mad at me. So the one time I did fight from the bottom, it didn't work out. So I'm just going to this isn't the right game for
Survivor Board Game Mechanics
00:08:54
Speaker
dads. I'm going to say, this doesn't get the dad's approval for me, Survivor, the board game.
00:09:02
Speaker
Any game where the others, the the rest of the family can team up against dad is yeah not going to get that stamp. Yeah. i mean, it's like, you know, let's play Settlers of Catan, but nobody trade with dad.
00:09:16
Speaker
Which, again, that's like, all right, sure. let Let's play Monopoly, but, you know, nobody let dad have property. It's a tough road. Why does nobody ever talk about how hard it is for dads out there? Ganging up against dads. Yeah. I don't know I'm wondering now if I do this.
00:09:35
Speaker
Well, Meredith, why have you been playing lately? I've actually been playing Monopoly. My son is
Video Games into Board Games: Slay the Spire
00:09:42
Speaker
seven and there is nothing he wants more than a game where you just, you know, use math to distribute the fake little dollar bills. And we've been playing so much Monopoly, but like, I don't know if this is the case for every family. In my family, nobody finishes Monopoly. Like nobody historically has ever finished Monopoly in my family. No, no.
00:10:04
Speaker
And this is something that like I'm trying to explain to my son as I'm like feeling the depth of this is that Monopoly was made to be a commentary on capitalism and why it's not good. and the idea like everyone starts with money. Everyone's having fun. Everyone's wandering around, buying up some properties and charging a little rent for them. And then Gradually, one person gets the upper hand and destroys the others.
00:10:36
Speaker
And there's no mercy. And it happens it happens so exponentially fast that suddenly you have no money and you land on a spot and you owe $300. And it never stops being like that for the rest of the game. And that's when, if you're seven years old, you start crying and protesting the game.
00:10:56
Speaker
And your parents need to explain to you, like, you were the one who wanted to play this game, and we don't have to play this game if it isn't fun, but this is how the game goes, and we can't show you any mercy anymore.
00:11:10
Speaker
okay um So that's pretty much Monopoly and we usually play for about like 30 minutes before it goes south like that.
00:11:20
Speaker
So just kind of through everybody like buying up everything and then and then it's over. yeah Yeah, eventually you just like if your fortune falls, you just immediately get squeezed by everything in the game.
00:11:38
Speaker
And then there's not really, you know, if you're if you refuse to mortgage off your properties, your precious properties, then you're never going to come out of that hole ever.
00:11:49
Speaker
Oh man, there is no more frustrating feeling in gaming than being forced to flip over that card though. I don't, I mean, capitalism has me in its grasp because the thought of mortgaging one of those properties as a kid was just like, this is the ultimate indignity. How could I be? How could I be? I don't want to see the backside of this card. That's no way to live. That's my Marvin Gardens. How dare you? There's no color.
00:12:14
Speaker
yeah there's no color yeah it's they've drained the color from my from my life uh with capitalism yeah someone should write about how bad capitalism is or make a game that simulates it so we can feel how bad it is um i the i'm trying to think We had Monopoly, i we obviously we had Monopoly, and then we also had Monopoly Junior, which you could finish because it was very short. So I would play Monopoly Junior with my little brother. And then at grandma's house,
00:12:54
Speaker
there was like the 80s, like light up Monopoly, like electronic Monopoly thing that went on top of but the Monopoly board where like you pushed a button and it rolled the dice.
00:13:08
Speaker
Either of you know this? Finally. I will say that's the hardest part, Monopoly. Man, I never had the cocaine Monopoly. That's amazing.
00:13:19
Speaker
That's amazing. And that's the only thing it does, just roll dice. I just want to, again, they're they're seeing this on the camera. You're not hearing this.
00:13:30
Speaker
About every minute or two my cat is leaping back up onto my lap.
00:13:39
Speaker
You're just like patiently taking him, like with a crane arm, just swinging him back over to the floor.
00:13:48
Speaker
I'll continue the the board game theme. I've been playing... a board game version of a video game. I've been playing Slay the Spire, the board game.
00:14:01
Speaker
Um, and it is, uh, like, I remember hearing that they were going to, so Slay the Spire is i like a ah card game that you play on your computer.
00:14:16
Speaker
And so when I heard that they were making an an adaptation for port, I was just like, well, what's the point? Real sapper cards? Do all that. And, uh, but for all the, all the people on BoardGameGeek, the main board game nerd website,
00:14:37
Speaker
like love that game. And so I was like, well, I can't argue board game geek. They know what they're talking about. and And so it's fun. Like the the difference that it has over the the the video game is that you can play it co-op with up to three other people.
00:14:59
Speaker
versus the computer game is is solo. I mean, can't you always play board games co-op? Is that like... I mean, it just like... That's not something you have to program into a board game. It's just sort of like inherent to...
00:15:17
Speaker
game? It is only co-op, the board game version, which is interesting because i generally do not like co-op games. i like I like competition, mostly because in a lot of co-op games, there's like one person who tells everyone else what to do.
00:15:36
Speaker
Ah, like the pandemic boss. Like, my job is to tell you how to play your next four turns. Yeah. Like there's one person, in my experience, there's one person that really knows the game well and is like, okay, so you play this card and then I'll play this card and then we'll play this card and then you roll the die and then we'll be taken care of. And so yeah, you know, I don't know what to say. If you're familiar with Slay the Spire, it's a board game version of that. It's been a lot of fun. I've played it multiple times with Friendly Lion and we have lost it.
00:16:10
Speaker
uh we have not played the spy so we'll get the spire next time then weve we've been beaten by the board game multiple times
00:16:23
Speaker
um i'm trying to just well i still have questions about survivor of the board game okay yeah ask away this i know that's why a lot of our listeners are thinking too it's like yeah that was all interesting but want more from jess about this survivor game so please ask away How do you play with three people? How does survivor work with three people? Poorly.
00:16:43
Speaker
um i mean, is the short answer. I mean, essentially each player is a double elimination system. Everybody has two characters from the show that they've drawn. So you can get voted out once you're still in the game, but your vote out the second time you're gone. So there's not an immediate like removal.
00:16:59
Speaker
process And then there are things like immunity idle cards, all the elements from the show that that can save you in a tough spot. But it doesn't work great because once you're down to two players, it goes to the final tribal council, at which point the eliminated player.
00:17:19
Speaker
becomes a jury which would be great if you had several members of it but as one player i basically get to decide the winner so it's now like the final stage of the game
Board Games, TV Shows, and Cultural Nostalgia
00:17:27
Speaker
is who do you love more your child or your spouse is like the foul and i have to judge which ones matter at me in that moment like which one's angrier at the way i've played the game and it's like i think my daughter needs a win here ah when was this game made Just the last year or two. Oh, my God. Really? Recently? It's like way after Survivor's Heyday. Not like the 20 million people are watching this show era. This is like, it's it you can go to Target today and buy this. I think it's made by the Exploding Kittens people.
00:17:58
Speaker
I think. Well, and designed by Jeff Probst. Television's Jeff Probst. I just I figured this was like a vintage game you guys picked up at Goodwill or something. you would have to think it would be like at at a time when you could just put out something like that and it would sell gangbusters based on the popularity of the show.
00:18:16
Speaker
Absolutely not that. This is the show well past its prime. Yeah. My wife is a big fan of the show. My daughter got this for for Christmas. And it's like, well, I guess we have to play this Jeff Probst design game now. And, you know, it's, it's a here's the best part of it.
00:18:34
Speaker
Here's why you should buy this game. Everybody who's listening. have The box that the game comes in. turns into the ballot box. Like you turn it outside and it has little slots that you drop your vote cards into to show who you're voting for. um So it does have like the prop element of the box becomes a ballot box. The box becomes a different kind of box.
00:18:56
Speaker
It transforms into a similar but distinct box.
00:19:03
Speaker
I'm looking it up on Board Game Geek because I had to. 6.8 from the, you know. i would say that's a little generous. I would give this a like a six. ah A firm six is where I would put this one.
00:19:19
Speaker
I guess if you want a survivor board game, though, it's a 10 out of 10. You're not going find a better one out there unless someone has a homebrew that's much better. Six for the clever box.
00:19:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like four of those six points are the clever box, which again... Isn't like mousetrap or something awesome like that. I mean, it's a box that turns into a box. it's It's not a level of deep creativity at play.
00:19:45
Speaker
That's the worst transformer, a box that turns into a box, a more different box. but But no, that's all you need to know about Survivor.
Narrative Themes in "Perfect Tides" Sequel
00:19:56
Speaker
But ah so so let's let's talk about ah Perfect Tides, both ah the the the first game and Station to Station. ah all as As I mentioned last week, I kickstarted it. so Thank you. ah if you're if you're If you're listening and you know what I look like, my face is somewhere hidden in there. Go find them.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, Ben backed at the level that he's actually in it over a dozen times. So he's nearly clean. And in some of them, he's like really just like waving obnoxiously in the background. How much you pay for that, Ben?
00:20:38
Speaker
i'm I'm all three of the the guys in that first dorm party scene that are kind of like waving back and forth and singing. I'm all three of those. It was an undisclosed amount that yeah we are both very happy with.
00:20:56
Speaker
So, so one thing, so when I first played, uh, perfect tides, uh, which came out, what about, uh, uh, four years ago, almost exactly now. Yeah.
00:21:11
Speaker
um I had i had no uh like I just picked it up around release on a whim I saw someone post about it and go like oh this seems interesting um and uh like I was quite floored I I loved it and but one of the things that uh really stood stood out to me is that I grew up on the other side of the Long Island Sound.
00:21:41
Speaker
I grew up i ah i' ah in Connecticut right like right on the shore okay And within the New York metro area.
00:21:55
Speaker
Yes. And so playing station to station and seeing like the LIRR trains, which are the same as the Metro North trains, I'm like, and that was when i was also...
00:22:11
Speaker
riding the train in from my suburb into New York and being, you know, 18 year old to like early 20s and seeing that if you see something, say something poster. All right. So I've just got you like there's yeah there's there's no going back for you.
00:22:32
Speaker
You you like I like I just saw I saw this. I was just like, oh no. Actually, probably here, could could you give ah a little bit of like what's ah like a basic concept plot pitch for Station to Station.
00:22:50
Speaker
um Station to Station. it's ah It's a coming of age story about an 18 year old girl who is in her first year of college. She aspires to be a writer.
00:23:00
Speaker
The year 2003. And if you've played the first Perfect Tides game, this is a narrative sequel to that game. Although I think you can kind of jump in at any point and and have a pretty good idea of what's going on.
00:23:15
Speaker
Mm hmm. And the, and station to station spends a lot of time in, in the city, ah which is very similar to New York or is New York.
00:23:28
Speaker
Um, And one of the the the funny things, I've been having this conversation with with friends of mine recently, which was ah new when I go back to New York and i I go visit friends and family there, I'm like, oh, the city has changed. It's not it's not the city that I would go to ah when George W. Bush was president, essentially. Classic New York, as they call it. Yeah, when you can pull the onion out of a newsstand box.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah. And it's it's funny because like i've I've been having this conversation and then the game starts with ah ah Mara being like, ah like talking about her, her favorite professor ah discussing kind of the same thing. And then I started to think like, oh, no.
00:24:27
Speaker
That's me in this story, not Mara. Oh, no. Right. It's just dawning on you slowly that you're being called out for the next, like, 13 Yeah, it's unfortunate. it's sad Yeah. It's, yeah, it's a struggle session. um You know, one the things, though, you know, you sort of joked that, like, this game kind of had you from the start, Ben. yeah I mean, there's so many, like, ways in which you sort of relate to it directly. And then I think what I found really interesting about Perfect Tides and Station to Station, and ah it's it's what, like, really drew me to the game, is that
00:25:11
Speaker
especially playing Perfect Tides. I'm just, you know, i think I'm probably a little bit older than you guys. So I was like, literally the first time I experienced the internet, which is such a big part of Mara's life was during my freshman orientation in college. I was like the last generation to grow up internet-less, I think. And, you know, so I had to like warp my brain at an accelerated rate, make up for lost time. And, you know, I grew up in the most rural of rural areas and in Appalachia and everything.
00:25:48
Speaker
But I found Mara's story in Perfect Tides, like, so immediately relatable. And weirdly, i felt a lot of nostalgia for an experience that I hadn't experienced myself, which I think really speaks to what a well-developed character she is and and just how, uh, how beautifully written, uh, the game is Meredith. Like I could really connect to this character that had just a radically different experience than my own.
Authenticity vs. Nostalgia in Pop Culture
00:26:18
Speaker
And, uh, yeah, I thought that was just marvelous. Yeah. I was feeling wistful about, uh, childhood I didn't have as I was playing.
00:26:27
Speaker
Well, I think that's kind of the that's kind of the secret. Like Ben has all these connections that he's made, but I think everyone is finding those in some way. Like like it's kind of like when you hear a song that you really like and you're like,
00:26:43
Speaker
I think these lyrics are exactly about my life. Like, yeah, I'm sure of it, in fact. And you can, you know, you can draw those connections as soon as i guess, as soon as you're invited to do so. um And ah it seems like people are, are being able to do that. So thank you.
00:27:02
Speaker
i one of the One of the things about the the world of both of these games is that there's a lot of ah specificity and references, like a lot of references to books and films in ah both of ah both of the games. um Was there a lot of like ah research? How did how did you put that together?
00:27:28
Speaker
like you know put that together um When it comes to books and movies, I really tried to um first write about as many as I kind of associated with that period in my life, ah as much as possible, try and remember my own impressions of those those books and movies.
00:27:49
Speaker
And wherever I couldn't do that, you know, if I had to read the book to, you know, ah compose my thoughts about it, I really tried to just like imagine myself reading this at a different age and like how I might have felt about it.
00:28:05
Speaker
And I think that that shows in, you know, a lot of the things that Mara either, you know, has a heightened sense of importance about or ah chooses to to ignore completely. Yeah.
00:28:19
Speaker
And one of the one of the things I kind of appreciate in these is that there's a lot of pop culture references um and a lot of like as as said like like you see the movies on the marquee and mara can go watch the she can go watch phone booth early on uh um and i But the the game neither game particularly feels like a ah reference humor. like the It doesn't feel like this is a reference humor game. Or like it doesn't feel like it's turning to me and you know nudging into my gut like, hey, do you remember do you remember Simpsons Road Rage?
00:29:04
Speaker
um Or is it Hit and Run? How... a how Like, was, is, is it it a challenge to kind of walk that line?
00:29:15
Speaker
i don't, I don't think so. I think, you know, when like, yeah, there, there is a difference. Let me see if I can figure out what it is, but um I'm not particularly wistful about this time. I feel like I have, you know, I've spent a lot of time thinking and remembering ah how I felt around that time. And yeah,
00:29:36
Speaker
and really trying to speak frankly about it without, you know, putting any kind of rose color on it. ah So when I think of those movies, like some of them were cool and some of them sucked and, ah and some of those books sucked and some of them were, were formative.
00:29:54
Speaker
And ah I, I think they're worth mentioning because they are, you know, just part of the texture on the whole thing. Like, you know, I talk about like this idea that, um,
00:30:06
Speaker
um you you don't have to to have the same sense memory as me. But if I describe like a specific way that something smelled, then you will remember a specific way that something smelled to you.
00:30:18
Speaker
We don't have to have the same one. And I think when you bring up like movies and pop culture of that time, it kind of just reminds you of like the kind of just like inconsequential things that were happening in the background of your life. and And even if those weren't the ones that happened to you, they remind you of the same inconsequential things that are going on right now or whenever you were that age.
00:30:48
Speaker
That's yeah, like, because it's, it is it like, because I was even having trouble trying to to figure out how to like word that question because it was just, it's like, I'm, and I think the, the lack of wistfulness definitely helps that it's not like a phone booth. What a thrill. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I think I think millennials are are pretty aware of of the kind of, ah you know, the slop that's being fed to them as as as aging ah members of of our culture. Like they just, you know, I don't i I mean, at least I am not really interested in like, you know, ah the the the.
00:31:37
Speaker
the kind of thomas kincaid looking illustrations of kids playing nintendo in their basement yeah that's just like yeah that's just like that's not interesting to me so that's not like i'm not that's not the reason i would i would make a period piece you know yeah and i feel like you know speaking like as as the gen z i'm sorry yeah gen z i didn't know dropped that i'm yeah i'm sorry gen Where'd that go? I'm really trying to rebrand as more of a Gen Z, like six, seven kind of thing going on. um
00:32:09
Speaker
But yeah, no, it's like a Gen X-er. You know, so much of the nostalgia slop that's produced for us is just like, Oh my God, do you remember how awesome Back to the Future was? Like we all loved that movie and it's been done to death and spoon fed to us so much. It's kind of, yeah. And again, all of it is through this like, yeah, the only movies that came out in the eighties were Back to the Future and Raiders the Lost Ark and Ghostbusters and everything was great all the time. There were thousand Dudley Moore movies that were getting like, coming out making a zillion dollars alongside that, you know?
00:32:44
Speaker
Well, I mean, you know, I'm not interested in like the fact that Back to the Future was playing. I'm interested in like, who'd you go with? Like, what was your home life like? What were you wearing? What did you like? You know, ah what was important to you? And also Back to the Future was playing. Like, I think that I think that can be very evocative. But I think, yeah, like ah if we if we assign all of the value of our of our yeah ah the days of our youth to these movies that were out, That's like really a shame, I think.
Generational Connections in Gaming Stories
00:33:18
Speaker
We Funko-popified our entire childhood. It's it's it's interesting playing, like, it's again, playing ah ah the first Perfect Tides. ah it Like, I was hit again with the same feeling of when I watched Lady Bird. when that came out however many years ago that was and that was that was a that was a first date movie and I turned to my date at the end of the movie and I said to him I was like oh my god they're making nostalgia movies for millennials now holy shit oh no laughing laughing laughing
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah, that was what, like eight years ago this point? Yeah. Yeah, no, it's been going on for a while now. Yeah. um So Perfect Tides had more of...
00:34:22
Speaker
what would be kind of ah the ah classic ah like Sierra interface of the, like the top of the screen with a pickup and inventory and look and like everything else.
00:34:38
Speaker
What, ah what games were you playing? Like, because i think I read an interview where you said, Oh, well, these were the games I played when when I was a kid. what What games were you thinking of? Oh, yeah. um Well, my my favorite, like the most formative ones for me were King's Quest five, which would have been the first one i was exposed to.
00:35:02
Speaker
And then shortly after that, King's Quest six. um I also really liked ah Laura Bow two, which I actually think the second game takes a little bit more influence from.
00:35:16
Speaker
But yeah, the games where you're just like a little guy walking around, you can see and talk to you and touch everything. And like everyone just, you know, takes one look at you and they're like, let's kill him. and that's like, I just love that about those games.
00:35:33
Speaker
So ah that was a big inspiration for the first game. Definitely. ah Would you like, the The first game ah has like there's kind of potential for for different endings. And I haven't finished Station to Station, so I don't know if that's the case ah there. But that kind of made me think of King's Quest VI, actually, which has that kind of similar kind of...
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah, there's there's like an ending that's like one second long and an ending that's like 20 minutes long. And you have to do so many things to go from one ending to the other.
00:36:14
Speaker
yeah that's exactly what I did. Yeah. I'm fascinated by the idea of Laura Boutou being influential on Station to Station as well. I'm curious, was it maybe the notebook element that ends up being the inspiration there? Yeah, the notebook is very similar, I think, to her phone.
00:36:38
Speaker
um You know, i kind of I kind of play with the inventory of ideas a little bit differently. There's... There's more dimensions to it, but I was definitely thinking about that. um And I think the game is maybe like a little bit more detective like than than the first Perfect Tides.
00:36:56
Speaker
You're collecting information. You're trying to like be a good writer, um which is sort of what's going on with Laura Bowe. And she also gets thrown into like all of these situations that she didn't ask for or prepare for.
00:37:10
Speaker
um So, you know, a fun adventure girl kind of game. um Yeah, I was definitely influenced by that one. but But you can't get hit by a car if you just walk out into the street. in in Perfect Tides 2? Well, yeah I don't want to say too much. There's some cars that try to take your life. Oh, well thank goodness. Oh, good. All right. Well, then it is just like Lord of Bell.
00:37:37
Speaker
Is there talking T-Rex? Hmm. I had to think about it, but no. Yeah.
00:37:46
Speaker
Well, it's, I mean, the T-Rex didn't pledge at a level that got them a speaking role, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Josh Mandel just should have coughed up a little more.
00:37:59
Speaker
um did So we we talked a little bit about like my reaction, like looking as a millennial and Jess is a Gen
Game Mechanics and Character Development
00:38:08
Speaker
X. And I was looking at like some of the Steam reviews and i i'm I'm curious because I saw at least one there, maybe a couple from people that are like Gen Z, both like I read a review that was like, I played the first game when I was in high school.
00:38:26
Speaker
hmm. And so now I'm playing it and I'm in college. Oh, wow. yeah Yeah. And so I was wondering, have you heard from from people that are like that are much younger than all all three of us here?
00:38:41
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. there There are people who are Mara's age in the game and they are experiencing this stuff right now. And then there are people who are just a little bit older than her who are like, man, that is what it was like.
00:38:57
Speaker
And it's it's kind of incredible. Like, you know, I think I think we we on the Internet, the warfare between generations rages on.
00:39:08
Speaker
But I think we I think we can really all universally understand the the you know, the experience of being young. the experience of doubting yourself and trying to reach beyond your ah what you've done thus far because you know there's more to life than you've already lived.
00:39:29
Speaker
i think these are universal experiences. And I think you know the texture of of pop culture does not dissuade younger people. They're interested in that because that's something they just sort of barely missed out on. And that's something that I think about, like with Mara in this game, she's drawn to older people who are a little farther ahead in their career. And she's interested in the things that they're interested in because she just missed it. So I think there is always like this fascination. If you can like authentically put people in a time period,
00:40:05
Speaker
they are going to be interested in doing so. They want to experience that. well Well, good, because I just got this for for my 24-year-old niece. So that was mostly why. Yeah, no, I hope she enjoys it. Ben, what or Uncle Ben, what the hell is this?
00:40:27
Speaker
um So one of the, one of the, like, so as i said, the the first game has kind of the the traditional kind of Sierra interface. The the second game has what I think it's more of the, like kind of the modern two click only with left click is interact and right click is look. Um,
00:40:54
Speaker
And, ah and then as you said, like it has the the cell phone, and then it also has like that you're you're accumulating knowledge. um Like and and picking it up.
00:41:07
Speaker
What like? ah what What led you to Like in in some ways I was actually kind of thinking a little bit of like Quest for Glory, a little bit of it. Like you're you're kind of leveling up.
00:41:23
Speaker
There's also a little more like kind of playfulness with... um like kind of convention and genre design. Like there's a ah conversation and I won't give anything away, but a ah conversation that ah a little bit into the game where you have like a heart meter and like, it's it's like this, I saw someone described it online as a boss battle.
00:41:50
Speaker
And so there was a lot of, was was there something that that kind of, drew drew you towards like going from kind of a ah quote unquote like traditional adventure design to something ah that plays around with these conventions a little more the second game?
00:42:06
Speaker
Yeah, um i've I've heard people describe it as like a little RPG like which I guess that would that would track with like Quest for Glory but I wasn't really thinking in those terms at the time.
00:42:18
Speaker
ah When I came up with the game, i really came up with the story first and the mechanics kind of grew out of that and i think what seemed appropriate to me for this character at this age is that she's collecting information she's not collecting empty you know she's not collecting beer bottles on the floor anymore um she's collecting like ideas like what is it like like what is anarchism what is like oh my god like to live in a city and these are like these are the this is what's real to her right now this is what's tactile to her so uh so the idea we get to explore them in conversation we get to explore them in in writing and uh those are our inventory those are the things that we are kind of playing with here
00:43:06
Speaker
And I love that. Like that, that really rang true to me as like a kid who you know, when I got to college, of course, I mean, i had that. being a professor for a living. So obviously I like being college. you never left. never left. I've never outgrown it. that That's why I still identify as Gen z ah But I think that just really captures how I felt at age 18 too. Like i I was in college and just felt like I am here to fill my brain with all of these ideas
00:43:40
Speaker
that I've never heard of before, but now are the most fascinating thing in the world to me and seeing sort of Mara tackle these things in that same way. And yeah, like gamifying that experience of just like, you know, okay, I've been exposed to a lot of people who aren't like me and a lot of ideas I've never heard before. And how do I integrate this into my sense of self that I've built for the last 18 years? And how do those fit together into this new person I'm becoming? Yeah, I think that it's a, to gamify that into a mechanic that, you know, that sort of still feels adventure gamey is really fascinating. think it it really captures something about the experience that a lot of us probably had as we entered college.
00:44:25
Speaker
Yeah. Um, one of, a how how, difficult was it for you in, in both games to kind of come up with,
00:44:39
Speaker
like uh puzzles when it's like you know i think about say king's quest and what a weird emphasis i just put on silence that upset me when you say it's we get a retake on that let's just walk that one yeah it's like let's go from the top then play the thing music like a matt berry king's quest um i But ah when, you know, I think it's maybe a little more straightforward to kind of think of puzzles of it's like, okay, well, you know, there's ah a snake over here and there's a like, and so you have to figure out something about the snake and there's this bear and there's a witch and blah, blah, blah.
00:45:23
Speaker
Versus it's like, you know, a a in in both of these games, they're more far more kind of true to life in some ways.
00:45:34
Speaker
Yes. I mean, i don't they weren't difficult at all, really. The puzzles kind of came as as the story progressed. Like, the first puzzle is ah is that you have to talk your way out of doing your job. So what what is more natural of a fit than that to a college student's day?
00:45:55
Speaker
um The second puzzle is how do you sneak into a party that you're not allowed to be at? ah The third puzzle. um All right, I'm not going to give away all the puzzles. Let me think. I mean, ah Quite a few of the puzzles have to do with like the work that you're assigned, yeah your job, your social obligations, your family obligations. um you're You're solving little problems to, you know, kind of get away with being the little bastard that you are in this game. So I found that the puzzles flowed very easily once I got started with the story. And once I started structuring the story into these days, um I found so many opportunities to play with that.
00:46:41
Speaker
it is It is funny they that you said, like, ah the the little bastard. Because, like, you know, she... it It's one of the things i I appreciate in the game is that you you watch her sometimes quite dramatically fuck up yeah in in the the game.
00:47:04
Speaker
but the, the, the writing is so compassionate towards her. um Like we there's ah like, and again, I'm not trying to give anything away, but there's, there's a ah moment where she's ah where the, the narrator who I believe is like her older. Is that, would that be correct? Or I, I don't think the narrator is any wiser than her. She maybe just speaks a little bit with a little bit more composure.
00:47:34
Speaker
Okay.
00:47:37
Speaker
Discusses a promise that she made to herself. um ah Once, when she became quote unquote an adult, an adult, it reminds her that, um and, and that's something like, ah again, like kind of,
00:47:53
Speaker
Like how I was talking with like the pop culture references, it it kind of feels like a really like delicate balance of having this, this like very deep compassion for her as you the player
Player Reactions and Streaming Experiences
00:48:08
Speaker
kind of watch and or lead her into a series of crises. Mm hmm.
00:48:17
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, without sugarcoating that either, though, I feel like, you know it doesn't ask. I mean, there are a lot of adventure games that just have like outright assholes as the protagonist, and they want us to believe that their assholeness is like their likable quality. And I appreciate that. that i It doesn't try to make that be like a charming characteristic I don't think would be your intention with Mara, right? No, I don't think she gets away with anything. i think she she suffers for every, every, yeah ah you know, stupid little act. Like she's just like, she, she pays a a severe penalty.
00:48:53
Speaker
um But yeah, I mean, i just like, you know, I spend a lot of time. living in the mind of myself as a as a teenager in 2003 and three and ah you know uh i cycle through these things as i think a lot of people do where you you think like oh so stupid and so dumb such a bitch is awful oh but i was sweet you know
00:49:24
Speaker
i forgive me And and I think that's that's what it comes down to is like like, the reason I show Mara doing these things is because I want to show that this is a moment in which she either takes or misses an opportunity to grow from that.
00:49:45
Speaker
um Because that is, you know, the pace at which I write this is what I approximate the pace at which somebody actually learns lessons from these things might look like.
00:49:57
Speaker
I'm curious, do you ever watch ah people who stream your games? Is that something that that you you enjoyed? you I know people you've talked to you know, it varies, but. Yeah, I do like watching that. I think i i I probably got more out of it for the first game because I was like, it was like, I don't know what anyone's going to think of this. And then I got to hear. And with this one, I'm like, hmm.
00:50:19
Speaker
I think I already know what they're going to think. Like, I'm not as, I'm not as lacking in confidence there, but um I do listen a little bit at night. People start to stream. It's all like, I'll put one on while I'm washing dishes or something. Yeah. Yeah, please. No, go ahead. No, please.
00:50:35
Speaker
I was just going to say that ah without fail, ah whether the streamer completely accepts the conceit of the game or whether they're fighting it every step of the way, they will eventually start telling stories about their own college experience. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, perfect there it is. i know I can get that out of you.
00:50:57
Speaker
I was thinking like before I played the original Perfect Tides, i actually watched Ben stream it on Twitch. So I was in the audience for that one. And something that I just loved as I watched Ben play through this was when we'd get to those moments when, you know, Mara would have, ah you know, maybe a moment where she was a little unkind to a loved one or something like that, you know, or, or, you know, some of those other moments that i guess,
00:51:26
Speaker
you know, a lot of reviews ah ah through around, you know, cringe behavior, things like that was the term I'd see pretty often. But i just loved watching in the chat how many people, like you just see, like she would say something a little hurtful, just like, oh no, like just how locked in people got to just like, and and I imagine that oh no is coming from a place of, you again, it's like, oh, I remember saying something mean to my mom one time when all she was doing was caring about me. The nerve of that lady, you know, but i just loved watching that because, I mean, you could tell again, like you said, with Station to Station, it it brings out people's own stories about their, you know, college experience is probably good and bad. you could just feel that audience kind of riding the emotional wave that the that the game was taking them on.
00:52:16
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I mean, that's really all I set out to do, because I, you know, i just want I just want to crack into people a little bit with these stories and, you know, just let them reveal what's inside.
00:52:30
Speaker
The yeah, no, and, and, and that's actually kind of the thing because when, when I stream this probably, probably at the end of February, of the the beginning of March, I'm looking forward to when I stream, I stream with two friends of mine.
00:52:50
Speaker
And I'm looking forward to what my friend Sarah has to say about it related to her experiences, especially with the shitty boyfriend.
00:53:03
Speaker
Oh, I love when friends stream it. That's so wonderful. Cause yeah, you really do get a lot out of that. um Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm just like Sarah, like I'm just in my mind, like, and I've been texting her. I'm like, Sarah, we're going to play the next one. And she's like, I can't wait. I love them. And, and I'm like, Sarah, I just have so many things I want to ask you because I know that like, it's like, I know,
00:53:28
Speaker
Like, I'm just like, I want to hear her shitty boyfriend story. Yeah.
Collaborating with an Editor for Story Clarity
00:53:34
Speaker
The shitty boyfriend I feel is like, a it's like a, are you with me or not moment in the game where ah I actually, I saw somebody like tweeting their experience playing the game the other night.
00:53:46
Speaker
And they were like, they were kind of unhappy about like what kind of game it turned out to be. And they're like, um is it going to be like this? And like, they're just like, They're just like tweeting out grouchy, grouchy reactions. And then within like an hour, they're like, oh my God, girl, dump him. Like they just got to that part where they just, in spite of themselves, felt that way too.
00:54:14
Speaker
Oh, that guy. Yeah.
00:54:20
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and I'm just like, oh, Sarah, I want to talk about bad boyfriends with you. um and and And, yeah, like, and I mean, that was that was our experience playing the the first game when we we streamed it at release, especially because we're like the three of us streaming together. We're all big nerds. And so like the second, I think like the in the same way,
00:54:50
Speaker
that um like ah like the the the boyfriend is kind of like a hook that kind of like pulls people in. The second...
00:55:01
Speaker
Mara sat down at the the, and you saw like the computer glow reflected on her face. And like, not only is is she ah like, you know, having these AIM conversations, but also it's like, you know, there's forums and there's all of this, like immediately we're all like, oh yeah, yeah.
00:55:26
Speaker
and was on I was on forums. Grayson was on forums. I think Sarah might have been on forums. And we're all just talking about all these fucking forums that we were on. This old internet. This old internet before everyone was on one forum together.
00:55:44
Speaker
yeah yeah present days Those the days. were the days. yeah Like, and, you know, and the the relationships and the weird friendships that you had at the time and like those and like, Jess, you're still like quite close with with people from your forum days. now I'm friends with yeah that's ah i mean old forum friends. i ran back in the mid 90s just...
00:56:09
Speaker
Meredith, to kind of give you like the quick version of the story. I ran a big Space Quest fan site and that started like as soon as I got to college and had a message for him. And I didn't know this until years and years later. it turns out Ben was actually an occasional poster on that forum. We didn't make this connection until 25 years later to realize that that he had been there and that he And yeah, I mean, a lot of those people create such a weird tight knit little community of nerds that, you know, still in contact. I've worked on games with those people that sort of work through my nostalgia from, you know, 10 years earlier than the period that you're grappling with. And, you know, that, yeah.
00:56:53
Speaker
Yeah, that internet, man, we we reminisce about that internet far too often on this podcast. I mean, it was an incredibly dangerous and unsavory place, but so wonderful and just full of of excitement.
00:57:08
Speaker
Yeah, it was, yeah, it was it was very different for better and worse. But there are things about it that have been lost that are a shame. You know, I'm, yeah, i'm I'm living the internet form dream. All these years later, i'm friends with the admin. you know. The saddest internet dream.
00:57:35
Speaker
Oh yeah, he's gonna make you mod. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I give you a special forum title. Like admin's friend. Yeah, just I it's gonna be a different color.
00:57:50
Speaker
Very You've achieved the dream. Never give up. Yeah. that was the That's the whole reason this podcast exists. So Bing could rank up on the forum I launched in 1996.
00:58:03
Speaker
um You know, one of the the things in Station to Station is that there is... uh kind of a and i put this in quotes in my notes here choices matter design in that it's like you'll you'll have moments where it's like do you go with your friend to the park or do you work on a paper and um like that's i think that's maybe the first decision of that kind in the game um and
00:58:35
Speaker
Like I'm going to say making that decision was extremely like nerve wracking to me. Like that felt like more of an actual decision then like, will you like, like in Bioshock okay harvest the guts or the brain of this little girl for magic powers.
00:59:00
Speaker
ah But it's like, no, will I work on a, like uh that's real yeah i mean that's like real stress that still hits way too close to home for me today i don't want to work on a paper still that still sounds like the worst thing you can do with your time you want to smoke weed with your friend when you didn't expect to or do you want to write a paper that is not even for school yeah ah was uh like you i i i just was really struck when that first decision came and actually it's it's kind of teed up because the game also tells you that you can't do everything pretty early and that like you just have to live with that anxiety yeah yeah i love that choice yeah i mean that's that's just perfect yeah
00:59:50
Speaker
That is the college experience. Was that like, that feels that ties very deeply into the the themes of the game itself. Like, was that? yeah Yeah. I mean, there's there.
01:00:01
Speaker
I did not want mechanically for there to be any way to get a perfect game. There are different outcomes when you make different choices and none of them are the true outcome. I've, I've, I've created a few ways that your year can go and, you know,
01:00:19
Speaker
frankly if you don't write anything during this year of college you're still gonna be okay like you're not your life is not going to be ruined i mean that was my experience my freshman year that was the choice i ultimately made and uh yeah i dug myself out of that pit uh just took four more years you know yeah um And one of the, like, ah you posted, i think today, like a list of acknowledgements of like everybody that you worked with on this this game. One that was really interesting to me was ah you worked with an editor, Matt Carney, I believe. Yeah.
01:00:58
Speaker
uh like who who help edit uh the the text in it and what did you you kind of learn from the the process i i saw looking at he also worked on norco which is a favorite of both of ours yeah adore that game yeah we talk about every episode this is our norco segment uh for this episode And both of these games are also very like word dense, like Norco, like they're extremely different games. This is like a college Norco in a lot of ways. It's a Norco I'm up. um But, but what was, what was that process? Like, what's the, the, the, the process of working with the editor specifically like on a, a game is it, it's not just like copy editing, I assume, or. No, although he did do that too, which was wonderful. He, he did do line edits, but, uh, on a daily basis, uh, he would, uh, you know, he would often help me, uh, uh, you know, put onto paper, ah the, uh, the various, uh, uh, puzzles, uh, mechanical components that were still being worked out.
01:02:15
Speaker
Um, I would occasionally talk to him if I had, a uh uh you know any kind of like what i saw as like a story problem he uh he was almost like a bit of a therapist in that regard um helping me work through the ideas for a lot of these stories um he read through everything he would often tell me if you know something felt inconsistent, uh, overly long, uh, perhaps the statement had already been made and, uh, uh, you know, I could chew, I could cut the fat a little bit.
01:02:49
Speaker
Um, so he really just kind of like, uh, he, uh, you know, in addition to like, you know, editing it for clarity and, and and just quality, ah he would often ask me to defend my choices, you know, like we would have, ah we would have, you know, conversations where, you know, he would ask what my motivation behind a particular idea was.
01:03:19
Speaker
And i would either say, well, this is really important because, and I would explain the entire thing. Or i would say, you know, this is actually kind of arbitrary and maybe I need to be a little bit more confident about what I'm saying here.
01:03:33
Speaker
So he was he was incredibly helpful in just kind of like drawing out ah the most clear and confident version of the story that I wanted to tell.
01:03:46
Speaker
And it it was it was fantastic to have another perspective on like the actual gameplay aspect of it. um So yeah, it was it was really terrific. I had never worked with an editor before. i had the sense previously that an editor would change my voice or it would sound less like me but it really was just an ongoing conversation about my intention with the story that's great yeah no i was really when i when i saw that and i was like i was just like oh that's really interesting like how
01:04:22
Speaker
Like, and that's, yeah, like, it how how it sounds like he, like, kind of help, like, kind of clarify ideas, I guess. within that And I will say that, you know, a lot of the adventure games that I play, you know, even ones that I enjoy quite a bit, sometimes I come away with it that feeling that this could have maybe benefited from an editor. You know, that there's tendency sometimes that, that you know, not...
01:04:48
Speaker
Not that too much text is better than Norco is a very dense dense textual ah game in a sense, but all that text is doing something, you know, it's it's not just there for the sake of getting a few more words on the page. And no, i could that's fascinating sort hear that, yeah especially with it being a daily back and forth, that sort of hands-on approach, yeah I could see where where it benefits from
Conclusion and Game Recommendations
01:05:16
Speaker
that. That's awesome.
01:05:17
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i i think ah I think more people could benefit from ah a Matt, although I don't want them to permanently take him away from me. ah i Well, that actually, that ah that ah covers, Jess, you have ah any anything else ah you wanted to say?
01:05:42
Speaker
ask, uh, I just want to discuss. Yeah. I just wanted to thank Meredith for being here. I want to tell all of our listeners, uh, go out and, uh, get, cause I know Meredith wouldn't plug this herself, but I do want to say, uh, go out there and, and get perfect tides station to station, uh, pick up the original perfect tides. Uh, these are fantastic games. I mean, again, i think when I've seen folks stream them, I played them myself. Uh, you know, it,
01:06:08
Speaker
they are going to elicit ah an emotional experience for, I think, just about anyone I've seen play these games. And yeah those we could all use some positive emotional experiences. ah like I don't know. I feel like I've been living in Frostpunk the last few days. And, you know, just anything a little heartwarming doesn't sound too bad. So, yeah, go out there and get Perfect Tides and Station Station.
01:06:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, other other than these these games, you have anything, I guess, else that you would like to to plug or or where else? Where where can folks find you? um They can find me on ah they can find me at Meredith Grand dot com. That's my my blog where I talk about like my dev ah dev process and such. And, you know, just like all the news about everything I do is there.
01:06:59
Speaker
um They can find Perfect Tides games on Steam. ah They can read my old webcomic Octopus Pie, which is still online at the that name dot com.
01:07:09
Speaker
And ah yeah, that's that's just about it. well Well, awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. yeah this is This has been a thrill. um Absolutely.
01:07:21
Speaker
And if you would like to send us an email, send us an email at questquestpodcasts at gmail.com. Five stars review podcast.
01:07:31
Speaker
you know Yeah, just go to fivestarreviewpodcasts.com and just enter your review in the little text box there. Type email into the subject line. Yeah. Yeah.
01:07:46
Speaker
Then we need to register five star podcast. I'm sure that exists. Five star podcast. stop Biz.
01:07:56
Speaker
For all of our sponsors. um But, but thank you so much for, for joining us and we'll see you next week when we discuss space quest four.
01:08:25
Speaker
Meredith, did you ever play Space Quest for No, I've never played any of the Space Quest games.