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Nos Audietis: How successful was the Club World Cup?
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Charles Boehm joins Jeremiah to give a big-picture view of the Club World Cup, discuss if there are any ramifications for how political it became and what that all portends for next summer’s World Cup.
After the break, they dig into the state of the Western Conference.
Read Charles at MLSsoccer.com and follow him on Bluesky.
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Transcript
Will Bruin's New Role
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart podcast network. Here
Seattle Sounders' MLS Cup Highlights
00:00:11
Speaker
we go. Come on.
00:00:11
Speaker
one Hey, O'Shaughnessy. Let's go. What save by Frye. The Seattle Sounders have done it. MLS Cup winning.
00:00:23
Speaker
Here comes Ruiz Dias through the middle to crowd it for Seattle. And now they truly can start the celebrations. It's the Sounders MLS Cup.
00:00:35
Speaker
Nico Lodero leaves absolutely no doubt. The Sounders rule the region. Seattle, Sounders, it's got built.
00:00:52
Speaker
This feels fucking awesome. This is a tiny dog. Nice work on your little yacht yat thing. And Portland can't say shit. know, what was the thought process in terms of who you decided to use who you didn't?
00:01:06
Speaker
Ever since Southert Hart wrote a commentary that we didn't take over coming seriously. Go, not Seattle!
Sponsorship by Full Pull Wines
00:01:18
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters.
00:01:32
Speaker
They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, c Pacific Northwest.
Introduction to Nos Audietes Episode
00:01:43
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Nos Audietes on the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network. I am Jeremiah O'Shan. Joining me today is Charles Boehm. Once again, are you doing, Charlie?
00:01:56
Speaker
I'm well. It's such a pleasure to be back here. Yeah, I know. It's like a all of a sudden get you on all the time.
Club World Cup Experience
00:02:05
Speaker
But with the with the Club World Cup closing, you've been like our Club World Cup court main court Club World Cup correspondent. So I just wanted to sort of close this circle a little bit.
00:02:15
Speaker
um Well, I wish that there had been more Sounders games involved in it. But, you know, it it kind of feels like, you know, we've we've been part of ah a grand ah human experiment, a human soccer capitalistic experiment the last month. And yeah, plenty to unpack.
00:02:35
Speaker
There is. You know, it's funny. I i have mixed feelings about how i how many more games I wanted the Sounders to play. I enjoyed the three games they were in immensely. Like, it was way more fun than I had anticipated. i thought the games themselves were entertaining.
00:02:52
Speaker
I thought the crowds were good. The atmosphere was good. The presentation I was probably most impressed by.
Significance and Surreal Moments
00:03:00
Speaker
but then as after the Sounders got eliminated,
00:03:03
Speaker
i Found myself somewhat disassociating with the tournament. Like I was just not as as plugged in as I kind of anticipated. Like i did watch some games and I followed it and I knew what was going on, but I didn't make it. It wasn't appointment viewing for me or anything like that.
00:03:17
Speaker
And I helped that the Sounders, you know, are playing games again. And they, you know, so I have just other things to be worried about. But this whole tournament did feel, you know, you kind of alluded to it it. did feel a little surreal in that when you're there and you're watching it and you're seeing the games happen and you're seeing the crowds and you're seeing the presentation and you're in it, it feels like a real important
Controversial Trophy Presentation
00:03:41
Speaker
tournament.
00:03:41
Speaker
Like it felt big. It felt competitive. It felt, you know, like the soccer was played at a reasonably high level, maybe not the highest level. but a high level.
00:03:52
Speaker
And then you pull back even just a little bit. And like yesterday, the the final was a perfect example of this. You've got Donald Trump sitting in the, in the stands. He's getting booed during the national Anthem.
00:04:05
Speaker
And then he sort of forces his way onto the trophy stage. Apparently the, the trophy presentation was delayed 40 minutes so that he could be involved in it. And then Infantino is sort of like, okay, you've done the presentation. Now let's let them do the trophy lift.
00:04:19
Speaker
And he's sort of trying to guide him off the the the the the ah the stage. And Trump's like, no, what are you doing? I'm here. This is my thing. and And it just gives this whole like icky vibe, right?
00:04:34
Speaker
Like, I don't know. Like, it was hard to get really into this thing. And you sort of wrote about this before the final. You talked about that, that you... absolutely cringe situation where Juventus ends up going to the white house and Trump makes all these political remarks while Juventus the backdrop. The players are standing behind him with no idea that he's about to do this stuff.
00:04:56
Speaker
And it's just like, i don't know. I don't, I don't know. How do you, how do you contextualize this all? I guess I'll just let you cook a little. we're We're certainly in ah uncharted waters, you know, and and i did and i but I do feel like part of my job is to try and step back.
00:05:12
Speaker
You know, I think you and I are probably like-minded in terms of how we look at the world and and the things we believe in and and the the way we connect to domestic politics. But but to to try and... And so so anything Trumpy from from the jump, you know, from the day he...
00:05:28
Speaker
rode down the gold-plated escalator or whatever it was and started his campaign with um his initial campaign. Now, ten it's been 10 years thereabouts, um you know entered into the into public political life on the extent that he did. And you know I mean, the... the The toothpaste is out of the tube, I guess, right? There's no going back.
00:05:48
Speaker
um we can't We can't change things. and and And there's a lot that I find distasteful and and objectionable and occasionally outright you know loathsome. But he's here. And I think ah the in the same way that a lot of um political pundits talked about you know ah winning one election had a certain sort of one-off nature to it or maybe like a ah ah a random event. and then but winning re-election has legitimized ah Donald Trump and the movement and and has
00:06:23
Speaker
put it in the mainstream on a different level, whether we like that or not on an individual level. And I think it reflects in the way that Gianni Infantino and FIFA writ large and and by extension, world soccer connects to the administration in this country.
00:06:38
Speaker
Like this is the the chief executive. This is the the the leader of the United States of America, the host nation, of the club world cup, the primary host nation of next summer's FIFA world cup.
Influence of Politics on Soccer Events
00:06:51
Speaker
So it's a, it's a Trump world cup. It's this and whatever you think of him on a personal or ideological level, he is ah necessary part of this process to host these two.
00:07:04
Speaker
And, and it really, it's three. If you, if you think ahead to the the women's world cup, these three massive, ah depending on, you know, whether, even if he's out of office by then, but the, the, whatever happens in the future, like these are massive logistical undertakings and,
00:07:20
Speaker
it's natural that the the governing bodies of these sports that are coming here, and it would be, i think, comparable with the Olympics too, they have to to connect with that. And arguably, it's even more important when you have someone with this type of personality in in the White House that it's not just enough to connect with this person. You have to have this this person and their movement and their administration on side and motivated to make the event succeed just as much as FIFA is because that's how these things work. And so...
00:07:48
Speaker
There is the the the trophy hoist was, was again, and the latest in this string of surreal moments because you know we it's it's it's it's already sort of distasteful to a lot of soccer purists that an executive of any form, right? Someone who's not a coach or a player is on the dais for for a trophy lift.
00:08:07
Speaker
But once the owners get up there, right, like that the the sort of the devil's in the door. And now it's like for for someone like Donald Trump that he is he's part of the show. And he I think we see this – the The reality show alum that he is, he thinks he thinks like a Hollywood producer. It's almost like ah Simon Cowell or someone like that in terms of his mindset.
00:08:31
Speaker
I thought of this you know a few months ago when he first came into office and immediately started a feud with Canada, right our audience. are our neighbors and our oldest allies and everything and, and our co-hosts for next summer.
00:08:44
Speaker
And he but goes out of his way to start a feud with Canada and its chief and its leadership. And ah someone asked him and Infantino on a previous junket they did, You know, isn't it, you're starting a trade war with a country that you have to work hand in glove with to host this event next summer. Isn't that a little bit odd?
00:09:03
Speaker
and And Trump said, well, you know, it it adds drama, right? No, I mean, who that that was his answer. That's how he thinks, right? That we don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's there's there's a little bit of... um There's a little bit of of drama inserted into this.
00:09:17
Speaker
And it's it's again, it's hard to sort of get your brain onto the anywhere near that wavelength. But I think it's important for trying to kind of contextualize what's happening and why and how, because um this this is where we're at. And this is there's still, even if you feel like there's fundamental changes and and and maybe concerning erosion of norms in our political system, this is still the commander in chief.
00:09:46
Speaker
ah There's still incredible value in in for the eyes of ah of a casual or a mainstream person, and particularly a global soccer person coming to US. It's just natural that that if you can get the the president of the U.S. involved in what you're doing, that you would want to do that. So i try to detach myself from from these things. It's harder than ever, right? But that's, um there's just, i think we just got to get used to this. Like this is the Trump World Cup.
00:10:13
Speaker
It is. and I, you know, on one hand, i I get it from the Infantino perspective, which is, look, his superpower is understanding what he needs to do to get what he wants.
00:10:27
Speaker
And to his credit, I guess, if you want to take this perspective, is he understood that for Trump to buy into this thing, he needed to sort of just like lather him up with every bit of of, you know, everything that he could, everything from letting him have the club world cup trophy, just sit in his office.
00:10:47
Speaker
Apparently keep apparently keep like, I don't, I think, you you know, whether or not it's the real trophy and the one that they presented is a replica, you know, we can sort of vice versa.
00:10:58
Speaker
Or vice versa, like whatever. Like it doesn't like I don't know what difference there really is, but he's keeping a club World Cup. He was essentially given the Club World Cup as a gift, whether or not it's the original or not.
00:11:11
Speaker
I don't know. It's like it's kind of beside the point that he believes that he has the original. and And Infantino certainly is letting him believe that. and that's sort of And listen, we're told that that the reason that that Jared Kushner provided the recommendation to Infantino to have Tiffany and co. make the actual...
00:11:31
Speaker
hardware. So I'm sure Donald feels like he's part of the process on some level, right? he You know, I'm sure he does. And I, and I'm, and I guess there is an element of like, look, you got to do what you got to do to make this, this tournament happen. if that's the cost of doing business, you know, infantino is, is, you know, I'm sure, but the thing is, it's also, and I don't want to get into the whole political discussion, but it is a long line of people who think that if they can just butter Trump up enough that they can sort of get his ear and convince him to maybe change his ways to loosen in, in Amfantino's, uh, the way it matters to him is he wants to make sure people can actually get into the country play games and to watch games.
00:12:11
Speaker
And then, you know, we hear about this silly shit, like there's a $250 visitor, uh, chart, visitor visa charge. If you are coming into like, just like nickel and dime stuff that what are we doing here?
00:12:23
Speaker
But whatever, I don't like, I don't want to turn this into a whole political discussion. But it it does. it's what's frustrating, I think, is that for a lot of us who do try to have like, even though we talk about political or whatever, non sports elements on this show.
00:12:41
Speaker
we try to still center it on sports. And when, and the way that Trump has inserted himself into the club world cup is just making it so much harder than it's ever been.
00:12:51
Speaker
Like, it's just, it's impossible right now to separate these two things. And more than that, you i like Do we think that anyone is prepared for what next summer is going to look like? you know in like The FIFA part, I think we're getting it we got a good taste of what having a World Cup is going to kind of feel like. We got a sense of the process for getting credentials and getting into the stadium and what the presentation is going to look like and all this kind of stuff.
00:13:17
Speaker
But this is all just a warm-up for next summer. is going to just This is going to become a totally political event, I think. And it's kind of bumming me out. Yeah, and I think...
Historical Political Influences on World Cups
00:13:30
Speaker
Well, in trying to to contextualize, ah in writing that piece, um I dug around and and this is not the first time, right? And of course, even younger ah listeners and readers will know we we're touching a lot of the same topics as as we did in the run up to 2022 with Qatar, an elaborate sports washing exercise ah to host the World Cup and not just hosted, but to build you know, entire neighborhoods and and areri and massive um stadiums, gorgeous stadiums, you know, spending 200 billion plus overall as a World Cup project to fit into this bigger geopolitical thing, right? And not only did Gianni Infantino um bring FIFA along on that, he he moved there himself, right? And he's he's so apparently...
00:14:20
Speaker
If reports are correct, he's still flying around on a private plane that's Qatari. And you could ah easily argue too that that Russia 2018 was worse, that ah a a a tyrant um in a country that had already...
00:14:36
Speaker
sort of destabilize its neighbor Ukraine and then would would subsequently declare open war on Ukraine was using the 2018 World Cup as a sports watching exercise and and burnishing its own prestige and and providing a sort of the ultimate repost to anyone who had any complaints about how they do business when it comes to oil politics and extraditional killings, whatever. right so and and then yeah and I had to remind myself too, like going all the way back to 1978 when a pretty brutal ah military dictatorship was running Argentina and did something very similar in a different era, but nonetheless with a lot of parallels to to that World Cup. The
00:15:17
Speaker
you know the It puts people in a tough spot and there are occasionally teams or or players or individuals within this system that stand up and speak out.
00:15:28
Speaker
um I think it was Paul Breitner, if I'm remembering right. um Pardon me if i'm if I've butchered that, but I think he was ah ah prominent German player who refused to take part in 1978. There was the the German national team covering their mouths in the team photo um in Qatar, ah if I'm remembering it right, to make a statement.
00:15:46
Speaker
ah You know, there's there's examples that there's there's always, I think, ah an opportunity if individuals or groups want to speak out to some extent. It's it's not easy for them, right? and And I think we've seen now that, you know, dissent is is is ah tends to draw ah strong strong reactions, occasionally brutal reactions here in this country these days.
00:16:06
Speaker
But um fundamentally, you know, FIFA sets the norms and those who are within that system. And if you're a player who wants to play in the World Cup or coach in it or work in it, and that's the peak of the profession, nevertheless, you know, you have to make your own sort of peace with it. And I think we have to do the same as fans. And um sometimes it's made easy ah to to to go along and get along. And sometimes it's...
00:16:29
Speaker
it's a little more, more difficult, a little more painful. And, uh, I certainly, if I think back sometimes because 1994, um, you know, I was an adolescent and went to games in Dallas where I grew up and changed my life, right. I'm probably sitting here talking to you because of that tournament on some level.
00:16:46
Speaker
Um, and it all seems so, it all seems so innocent, you know, when I look back on what that, uh, tournament was like, but you know, that's, That's where everyone wants to be. and that's you just you know you have to sort of i think I think FIFA maybe has always been like this.
00:17:06
Speaker
yeah As much as we feel like it's unprecedented, maybe maybe that maybe there's a cyclical aspect to this. Well, I mean, I i think you're right. i think But i I just can't help but think that there's also degrees to which – I mean, I guess maybe we've just never had someone quite as shameless as Trump being catered to.
00:17:25
Speaker
And that's sort of what makes it different. It's not so much FIFA doing anything different. It's the way that Trump has embraced the opportunity you know to Like, I'm sure – Maybe he – I'm sorry to cut you off. Maybe he was was watching when Leo Messi raises the World Cup trophy. Right. And ah and and a ah traditional Qatari garment is placed over his shoulders.
00:17:48
Speaker
Yeah. to create To create to literally impose the country on on that moment. Right. Sure. i'm I'm sure you're right. But I don't think but I think there's a difference between andos even then, which it was gross then.
00:18:00
Speaker
i think a lot of people thought it was gross then, too. But. it was That's one thing of it saying, like this is our country's World Cup, and then this is Trump saying, like no, this is my World Cup. This literally is the trophy is in my office.
00:18:15
Speaker
It's not the country's office. It's my office. I'm going to stay up here on stage. and you know it's it's not ah representative As a representative of the United States, it's it's me i'm I'm here.
00:18:26
Speaker
This is my thing. ah But whatever. We don't need to dwell on this too much. I think we probably both ultimately agree that this is, it's whether or not it's degrees, you're right. There is a trade-off that comes with having a FIFA tournament.
00:18:40
Speaker
We were exposed in the most overt way possible to that trade-off,
Vibrant Fandom at the Tournament
00:18:44
Speaker
I think. And that was sort of more my point, is that we got a full taste of what the FIFA experience is. this in these, this last month.
00:18:52
Speaker
ah But there were some, i think more, know, at the same time you, you, you put up with it because as soccer fans, there was a lot to like about this tournament. As much as I may or may not want to admit it, there there was a lot to be impressed by. Like I wrote a pretty exhaustive piece where i talked about things that we learned about this tournament and And most of it was good, I think, ah from a soccer perspective. like there were
00:19:22
Speaker
it was super exciting to see fans from all over the world coming to Seattle and putting on displays of fandom that are different than what we would otherwise see.
00:19:33
Speaker
ah you want You got to see some of these games on the other coast. What was your experience in the stadium? Yeah. And, and, and, you know, to be fair, so I'm, I'm here in DC, uh, DC's three games were, were not, were not like a, a lister type of games, although, you know, Juventus was the biggest name that came through.
00:19:53
Speaker
And, and even at that, I mean, that, that game got a little bit overshadowed by, um by what had happened at the white house with the, the, the, the oval office junket earlier in the day.
00:20:04
Speaker
But I think there's something here. And, um, It was striking even, i mean, I went to the third game, which was a dead rubber between Wadad of Casablanca versus Ain. So teams, it was like the worst case scenario. It was a three o'clock start on a 99 degree day in DC on ah on a weekday.
00:20:26
Speaker
with two teams that had already been eliminated from a contingent for this, for the knockout rounds. And yet still I roll out to the stadium and it is absolutely sweltering. like the Like there's a reason that, you know, DC United does not play day games essentially between Memorial day and labor day, right? It's, it's hot.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah. And yet there's these YDOT fans out there sweating their faces off, but like there's ultras in behind one goal chanting the whole game. There was way more atmosphere than I expected for a essentially meaningless game.
00:20:59
Speaker
And I think that showed you maybe like if that's the floor, And then if a sellout MetLife Stadium, you know, watching two of the world's biggest, most popular clubs um play with the president of the United freaking States in the house, like that, that's maybe the ceiling. I mean, that's technically, I think the
European Media Coverage Critique
00:21:18
Speaker
first sellout of the tournament, but nonetheless, a pretty, it was a tough ticket.
00:21:22
Speaker
You know, there, there's something here. And I think, um I always, one thing I found myself coming back to a lot as I both watched these games and watched how others watched them and watched what the media coverage was like, you know, the, the, the dominant, I think, journalistic,
00:21:38
Speaker
voices were Europeans that were coming in large numbers to cover this event, whether they were team media or covering on a medicine. sense And they all, they came in with, with us a fair amount of sort of preset agendas or at least topics, right?
00:21:51
Speaker
The quality of the pitches, ah the extreme heat, you know, and then all the the FIFA but political stuff. No one was paying attention to it. Uh, right. The Europeans were going to dominate.
00:22:03
Speaker
What else we got? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, the, what a stain this was on the game in terms of the traditionalist standpoint and so forth. And, and not that there's, not that those are without merit, but,
00:22:15
Speaker
some of those fizzled when it came to actually like, hold on, like the like let's for me, it was a moment to say that Eurocentrism is a ah a pretty powerful force in in ah in the world, in the global affairs of humans for the last five, 600 years.
00:22:32
Speaker
And it's still here and it's very much well-established in soccer. And this tournament, I thought, exposed a lot of the flaws and and and some of the arrogance that that that is behind that. right so In the end, you have you know the the europeans ah the European giants with the most money and and the most cloud and established um i guess power in different, both on and off the pitch were the ones that were in the final were dominated the the the latter knockout rounds.
00:23:00
Speaker
But They got their noses bloodied a bit. I mean, you saw the the the real stars, I think, as much as anyone on the field were the South American supporters. and And I would even lump in like a wide ad, right? A three and out team from a, you know, I guess a little bit off of the the mainstream soccer map, but they were incredible. They showed out and they're the players cared, the fans cared.
00:23:21
Speaker
ah you know, I want to also just give a shout out real fast because I feel like oh there's been a lot of discussion about the great supporters at this thing. And one of the ones I keep not hearing about is Irwa Red Diamonds, who came out in massive, massive numbers for two games in Seattle.
00:23:38
Speaker
I don't know how great their showing was in l L.A. I think it was OK, but. Like I thought – like the South American teams, especially like River Plate had this unbelievable crowd as well.
00:23:51
Speaker
ah I know the Brazilian teams had great crowds almost everywhere they went. And I think they are understandably the the toast of the town when it comes to just the sheer numbers. But I was just blown away at Irwa's coordination and almost like they traveled with an actual supporters group.
00:24:07
Speaker
Like a – like 3000 people strong they all knew the chance they all and they were highly coordinated and all this kind stuff it was just quite a display anyway I don't I didn't mean to cut you off I just wanted to get that in there because have absolutely a bunch of people talking about the great supporters of this thing and Irwa just has it feels like they got overlooked but anyway go ahead But i mean that's they're another great example of there's a rich, vibrant footballing culture in Japan.
00:24:34
Speaker
And right we don't necessarily – it doesn't necessarily get the shine that it deserves um just because everything is so overwhelmingly canted towards the European clubs and competitions and leagues. And that's – again, we still know that the best players and the best teams are concentrated on that continent.
00:24:50
Speaker
But think the reason FIFA has gotten part of what's gotten this things this whole project this far is that FIFA knows that and they recognize you know FIFA UEFA is turning out to be one of the great sort of ah um soccer Cold War.
00:25:05
Speaker
You know, rivalries of our time. and And Infantino knows that he can tap into a significant and po potent um backlash and pride in other parts of the world that, you know, among among people and countries and at entities that chafe at the the the sort of dominant and perceived superiority of those countries and those teams. And I think that's that's something powerful. And that's what makes the World Cup special.
00:25:31
Speaker
It's this, when you can find this sort of, there's this incredible collective, um ah sent it's patriotism, but sort of defanged from from the negative aspects of it right? And it's one of the international soccers where we can feel free to be, to support our flag and our country without so much of the baggage.
00:25:50
Speaker
And I know that may be harder for Americans than many countries and for a variety of reasons, and it goes goes beyond Donald Trump. But you you know you get that chance to to to support without...
00:26:03
Speaker
ah without so much of the guilt. And and and you know in Germany, that was a huge talking point. That's why arguably why Jurgen Klinsmann had the aura that he did when he came to the US job, because he was the at the the figurehead of this ah this great um distillation of of German-ness right and German pride. And I think that's what tournaments can do. That's what tournament runs can do. And and I think The Club World Cup is was showing that there's a ah different flavor that that that could be really, really meaningful. And and so I think that's why we're goingnna we going to see and hear a lot more about this. because and it And it also, it's cleverly, I think they've slotted into the calendar as a de facto Confederations Cup placement, which has a lot of logistical value as ah as a World Cup warmup as well.
00:26:48
Speaker
Although it will be interesting because when the next World Cup, 26, where's the 30 World Cup? It's in... Oh, God. Morocco, right? is ah Is that right?
00:27:00
Speaker
should really know. um Sorry, morocco Morocco, Portugal, and Spain co-hosting, and then they're doing three matches in South America for the centenary. So it's a little bit a Frankenstein, ah but predominantly, I think, originally, Morocco.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, no, you're right. And I would just remember i was I had this conversation because I said I had... posited that the U S makes sense as almost a semi-permanent host for a tournament like this, because we just have the infrastructure to support it.
00:27:29
Speaker
But I was reminded that Portugal, Spain, especially have plenty of facilities that can support this type of tournament. So it shouldn't be probably, it will probably won't be an issue. though I would imagine it will be kind of if it, if it goes there, and the next one, that would make sense.
00:27:45
Speaker
But yeah, um one One of the things that also jumped out at me about this tournament was how the European press, and especially the English press, I think, were just licking their chops at this being such a massive failure that it would be a one-and-done type of thing.
00:28:03
Speaker
And I think maybe the biggest takeaway that it almost doesn't even feel like a takeaway because it it feels almost like common sense, the idea that this is a one-and-done tournament is just not based in reality.
00:28:15
Speaker
this was much, much more of a success, much, much, or should say much less of a failure than it would have needed to have been to not be repeated. I think you could also, you can argue that it was a success for a one-off tournament, I mean, for a first of its kind type of tournament.
00:28:31
Speaker
It went, we you know, like there were not sure. Like there's a lot of talk about the percentage of seats that were filled at these games. and And there was a lot of rightful criticism of the ticketing process. I would imagine that FIFA made a tiny fraction of what they thought they might make in terms of ticketing revenue because they botched the the pricing and the rollout so badly that I would love to think that this will have ramifications on the way that they price the World Cup, although I think that's probably naive.
00:29:04
Speaker
But at the end of the day, you can say that there was only, you know, half the seats were filled at a lot of these games. There were still like 30 or 40,000 people at most of these games, which is frankly a lot of people to go watch a soccer game in almost any part of the world.
00:29:19
Speaker
There's plenty of World Cups where the games are at facilities that don't fit more people than that anyway. So the fact that, you know, there I don't remember, um I haven't seen the actual attendance numbers for this thing.
00:29:31
Speaker
But it was well over a million people came out to watch these games. That's a lot of people that came out to these games. And and we can talk about, like again, we can talk about the percentages and we can talk about all the things that FIFA had to do to fill these seats.
00:29:43
Speaker
But if you went to one of these games, chances are it was a pretty good crowd with a pretty good atmosphere. Yeah. And and i um having spent way too much time on Gianni Infantino's Instagram over the past couple of weeks, he kept every time they'd hit a different a new milestone, it was million. I think it may have been over 2 million.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah. they so they So his social media team would post ah when they would pass a new milestone. So they hit they they went over 2 million on July 2nd. So you know we're we're we're in the 2 million plus.
00:30:15
Speaker
Okay, there you go. and You know, that's, again, for for something that was widely ah maligned before this all started as as this this hideous ah beast of a, you know,
00:30:29
Speaker
um of a boondoggle, like it's clearly there. I mean, and I think part of that too is it's the power of the US and the US story, right? Which is that there there's expats from every corner of the world here in some numbers.
00:30:42
Speaker
And you know nobody I don't think anybody expected that. i think Is it Al-Ali, I think it the Egyptian team that turned out a huge crowd, like dominated their games at the Meadowlands? And it's like, you know, FIFA didn't even realize what, you know, how, how much they might be able to type tap into these different groups. And so maybe it's a different challenge, right? Maybe in Morocco and, and Iberia, it's, it's, it's, it's going to look different in four years.
00:31:06
Speaker
Something tells me Gianni will, will always be drawn back to the States. I mean, it's, it's one thing that they opened a a FIFA office in Miami and now they've gone a step further and opened in Trump towers.
00:31:18
Speaker
So, you know, Yes. They're putting down roots here, right? So I suspect he'll he'll be looking for any excuse to put any sort of FIVA events in the US just because the know the floor there. And it's it's something i posted about this on Blue Sky a couple weeks ago.
00:31:33
Speaker
There's a real monkey's paw phenomenon that i that I have now as a middle-aged soccer person who, again, watched the 94... and Always dreamed of like, wow, someday the US will be relevant, right? Someday if we all work really hard, well we can grow the sport in this country enough to be relevant on the global scale. And now we are relevant in all the worst ways, right? In terms of yeah bringing dynamic ticket pricing. And ah you know not not everybody hates it, but certainly there's a um ah very American sort of... ah Super Bowl flavored um hype machine and and extravaganza kind of ah spectacle mentality that's being applied to this tournament in particular. And I think we'll go will will be the new normal going forward for for World Cup as well, because Infantino in particular and and people on his tier in general,
00:32:23
Speaker
um they see how much how well American professional sports has commodified their product and they want to learn and they want to apply that to soccer. and It's and it's not not a perfect fit.
00:32:35
Speaker
um There'll always be a push-pull there. But for sure, u sports and US s capitalism is is influencing global soccer on ah in ways that we've never seen before.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah. And you you know, you say for better or for worse. Yeah. Like it or not for better for worse. It is kind of where we are. i guess I'll close this segment and I'm not going to ask you if you think this was a success or a failure, but I do want to know if you came away, how where, how did this line up with your expectations of the
Exceeding Expectations at the Tournament
00:33:09
Speaker
tournament?
00:33:09
Speaker
Was it, yeah, I'll just leave it open like that.
00:33:15
Speaker
I think overall, um overall, it' surpassing my expectations because one, so ah you know i I approach it too from a inevitably as detached as I try to to to be from stuff just for analytical reasons. like I was very interested in seeing how general non-European and non-South American clubs did and how they performed on the field.
00:33:39
Speaker
specifically, you know, the MLS and North American teams most specifically, because that's the ones that I, that I watch the most and spend the most time on and around. And then also how, you know, how the actual product, um you know, the tournament as a product and how it would connect with the, with the marketplace and, and with our, our soccer communities.
00:33:57
Speaker
And I have to say, like, I, I, I think it could have gone a whole lot worse. And I didn't i didn't necessarily have it an idea of what the best case scenario was, but it has to be has to be on the upside, you know pushing the upside just because... And and also, even even you know since you and I and Richard recorded that pod a month or so ago and in the lead up,
00:34:17
Speaker
You know, we were, I think we spent amount a good amount of time, whether it was ah on or off mic, talking about how shambolic the ticket sales had been up to that point. But then even in the final days, right, and during the tournament, FIFA clearly seemed to try to be learning from their mistakes and adapting and trying to get butts in seats.
00:34:35
Speaker
and And they succeeded, i think, maybe more so than their initial missteps would have indicated that they would be. And I do think they have a decision to make. which is you know they're they're trying to have their cake and eat it too in terms of both maximize the the the the event as a as a spectator attendance event, meaning have the biggest crowds and make the most money off tickets while still but building everything around centering the ah European television audience, which is the biggest density of of viewers. right but But I think you have to decide if you're going to take this product seriously or take this tournament seriously as a competition.
00:35:12
Speaker
like You can't be having games at high noon ah in in in a North American heat wave just so that extra people will watch in Europe on television to be in prime time and so forth. like like Decide which it's going to be. And if they had decided from the jump maybe been a little bit less avaricious. like Maybe you could have had dirt cheap tickets, try to sell out every every game at every venue, and then know that you're going to you know you're going to get it back in a different situation. right I think now that these events are so big, the the climate and time zone realities are so complex.
00:35:49
Speaker
I think you've got to decide at some point, okay, like if we're going to make someone sit out in the sun at noon, like we need to adapt our ticket pricing approach. And we and they they're already we're already seeing, right? The game is adapting in terms of the cooling breaks. And I think there's a whole other conversation to be had about how adapting soccer as we know it to these conditions, which are only going to get worse with climate change, right?
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, they said something about how only games, only stadiums that had roofs would host afternoon games. Didn't they make some statement about that? and I think there was. It doesn't make any sense. Honestly, it didn't make any sense to me. Yeah.
00:36:23
Speaker
Yeah. yeah But yeah and I will say that, you know, on the ticketing thing. They FIFA does get some credit for doing something that so few, you know, and MLS teams or most American teams would do, which is you see that the that the audience is not react is not buying at your preferred price point.
00:36:43
Speaker
And so you start flooding the market with much, much cheaper tickets. We saw it here. You know, we saw. Tickets that, you know, and it was very frustrating for fans and I get it. Like I, if I'm a fan and I paid $500 and then found out that I could have got that same ticket for 50 bucks, I'm going to be pissed off.
00:37:01
Speaker
But FIFA also is the circus. They come into town and they leave. And then, and then, and so are you going to hold, are you going to not buy tickets for the world cup next summer? They're certainly betting. That's not the case. Right.
00:37:13
Speaker
So they maybe have the ability to do that, that ah teams who have to sell tickets, uh, it to the same audience 20 times a year and then and potentially for a lot longer than that.
00:37:26
Speaker
So they they have some flexibility that local teams don't have. But I suppose they do deserve some credit for realizing that people were not going to pay premium ticket prices for an event that wasn't yet proven as a premium event. And then they started pricing it more accordingly.
00:37:41
Speaker
ah But I would also agree with you that Whatever the worst case scenario was and whatever the best case scenario, this was probably ah much, much closer to the best case scenario, especially for the MLS teams.
00:37:52
Speaker
I did find it funny that how many people came out after Miami lost to PSG saying, and like, i I was shocked at how many credulous headlines I saw that were something along the lines of MLS saw how far they have to go as if that was a mystery.
00:38:10
Speaker
Like we any at any world, did we really think that Miami was going to stand toe to toe with PSG? Like we had a good time with the Sounders losing two zero to PSG, but I think we all knew in our hearts that the gap in talent was, that was vast.
00:38:26
Speaker
Like we didn't need that game to, to prove that, that PSG was better. we didn't need, you know, and I think having one MLS team get out of the group and, and when, you know, that they, that MLS team did win a game in this thing, that was probably about best case scenario. I don't know that many people would have really plausibly predicted a better showing.
00:38:50
Speaker
Right. Well, it was sort of like a decade or two decades worth of CONCACA Champions lessons all all distilled into into one one month and with supercharge with the with not just the elite of Liga MX dealing out harsh lessons, but now it was the elite of UEFA Champions League, right?
00:39:12
Speaker
i mean, we've known for a long time now because... you know so much so many So much of MLS and and North American sports in general is sort of a bubble, right? it's ah it's It's a distinct environment here and we have our own championships and we have our own gravity.
00:39:26
Speaker
But those the CONCACAF Champions Cup slash Champions League is is the definitive... measuring stick, right? you cannot ah You cannot escape those results, especially when you look at them in mass. And I think the Club World Cup is another one.
00:39:38
Speaker
And if you've been following, if you've been ah if you're an MLS sicko in particular, or people like us who are immersed in this league, yeah the the fundamental outlines are the same. the that you know you're fundamentally the the the MLS salary regulations, which are which have a ah sensible sensible principles in mind, right? It's making your money go farther, um creating the most balanced domestic competition you can.
00:40:02
Speaker
So without getting fully into the weeds on that, you you when you go up against a team that has spent as much on its right back as you have spent on your... top three attacking players, right. That's, that's going to show.
00:40:17
Speaker
Right. And there's always ah you know, we talk about soccer as a weak link game when there's 11 bodies on the, on each side on the pitch, like the best teams and the best coaches will always find the weak links. And, and for the most part, I mean, Seattle's case in particular, I thought the midfield was excellent for long stretches. The defense was, you know, was,
00:40:37
Speaker
was pretty reliable, more so than we thought for long stretches. But it's and the chances were created in the final third that they were not finished clinically. right And if you have the if you had a clinical finisher on the scale of of what PSG or Atletico has in front of goal for some of those chances that that that the Sounders created, you know maybe it's a different story, but that's that is the price premium on the global market.
00:41:00
Speaker
That's why... MLS limits that kind of spending to three spots, essentially, right? In short, right three spots per roster instead of 12, 13, 14, 15, 18 spots per roster.
00:41:13
Speaker
So it's just, it's money and it's not necessarily, um there's there's, we see this all over the country, all the world, right? And the the data people will tell you, look at wages. Everything always comes back to wages, right? And teams can pull off upsets and there's incredible stuff that happens. We haven't even talked about Auckland, this the semi-pros of this tournament, the yeah team that's getting it resolve yeah getting a draw against one of South America's giants. I mean, that's yeah absolutely incredible. So soccer can serve that up for us, but over the bigger sample size, you know the the the wages that you're investing to draw the top talent is so often so... um
00:41:52
Speaker
So indicative. Yeah, and and I think one of the, not to, this is going to get us sidetracked, but I will say, i think one of the things that people get messed up with in MLS is that there's this kind of longstanding belief that you can't buy wins in MLS the way you can buy wins in other leagues. And there is some truth to that.
00:42:10
Speaker
But the bigger reality is that the gap between the most expensive teams and the least spending teams is just not big enough. Or certainly, there's not enough stratification in the way that teams spend to really show up in performance.
00:42:24
Speaker
Like that's, that's where it really is the differentiating factor. It's not that money doesn't make a difference is that you just, there's not enough ways to stratify the league based on money alone. And that's what keeps MLS from being sort of the same as these other the leagues, but that's something we can get into some other time.
00:42:41
Speaker
um I want to take a break and I do want to talk to you a little bit about the state of the MLS ah season. ah This is sort of the the part of the week where we we do our how the West will be one segment. So I want to come back and talk to you a little bit about the Western Conference.
Shift to Major League Soccer Discussion
00:42:55
Speaker
Get your thoughts on a few things ah because we do think there are some stuff going on in the MLS world. But thank you, Charlie, so much for for talking Club World Cup with us. And we'll be right back.
00:43:10
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:45:02
Speaker
Welcome back to Nos Adiates. I'm here with Charlie Boehm, and we are going to do a little mini How the West Will Be One segment talking about the Western Conference and the MLS. This was ah another sort of pivotal weekend, right?
00:45:17
Speaker
And it it seems like maybe we're getting some some crashing back to Earth, some other movements.
00:45:25
Speaker
Let's start at the top, though. San Diego is now leading the the Western Conference. They really do look like they're for real. I mean, they they keep passing all these little tests.
00:45:37
Speaker
ah I don't know. Is there any any big takeaways you have from from them right now? Like they, um don't know. They keep impressing me. Yeah, I will say they're – mean the though rate of which they're scoring goals – and this is a team like everybody – there was a lot of – a fair amount of debate, I guess i should say, or or speculation about do they have enough, right? they they Yeah.
00:46:01
Speaker
They have always been built on this idea of these two kind of complementary wingers. And that's where they are spending the most money with Dreyer and Chucky Lozano. And then, but like, can you, you know, can that work? Like, do they, do they, ah do they need to go get a number nine to to be the spearhead for everything? Is this all going to, you know, shake out? but And then that's even, you know, before you even get to the bigger sort of ideological questions about, can you play this pretty soccer all season throughout an expansion season and, you know, not get kicked in the face repeatedly and and exploited for your idealism?
00:46:34
Speaker
Well, i mean, here we are. It's July is half over. They're at the top of the table. They score goals for fun. Yes, they do the Eagles. 46 goals. 46 goals for 22 games. That's outrageous.
00:46:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing. And it's not the kind of thing you see. It's just it's just not a typical expansion story, right? I mean, that's that's typically the hardest thing to do. And and again, they there's been so many moments where we and they had a little dip in late spring.
00:47:00
Speaker
There's been these these occasions where you think, all right, sure surely – the honeymoon is going to end, right? The shine is going to come off it. And, and, you know, even if they completely crater now, I think they're, you know, it'd be very difficult for them to miss the playoffs.
00:47:14
Speaker
Playoffs is sort of the, the, the basic ah pass or fail, I think for, for every team, but it's particularly expansion teams. And they, they're fun to watch. And they just, I think the identity question is so important. Like, and I i get into this about, I come back to this about Philly a lot, right? Like Philadelphia Union, ah their fans gripe about not enough spending. There's a sense that their ambition and is limited. They don't go out and and splash on designated players.
00:47:41
Speaker
But what I come back to with them over and over is their identity is so clear. Their self-knowledge is so so deeply, ah died into the wool of the culture and the organization. And I think you're seeing that with remarkably with such a new entity had, you know, not, not a, a lower division team that's making the, the, the promotion, quote unquote promotion, like as is so often the case in the past with the expansion stories, they've just built something from scratch. It seems to have legs. And I think it's going I mean, we're only in the early phases here because the plan and starting next month, they're going to matriculate their first class of academy kids in a fully residential program that I think and strictly in terms of infrastructure from the jump is is in the MLS elite for youth development.
00:48:27
Speaker
And that's where they plan to be sort of that. That's their foundation long-term. And they've already... built something really impressive. And they're doing it in a lot of cases, like some of their best players are youth prospects from other clubs that weren't, didn't make the grade or weren't believed in, or hadn't earned the faith of their coaches in LAFC and San Jose and places like that. So ah big shouts to to Mike Ivaras and Tyler Heaps for what they've done.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's they're on pace to go over 70 goals. That is a ah mark that only, i believe, only a handful of teams have ever hit. Now, it happened twice last year, Crew and Miami, but 70 goals is not a easily achievable mark I mean, two goals a game is not an easily achievable mark in MLS. It doesn't happen every year.
00:49:15
Speaker
And they are currently on pace to to blow past that. And it it is, you know, they are overshooting their XG by some, but not an outrageous amount. You know, they they they are, i think, third in the league in XG.
00:49:30
Speaker
And they, you know, they just are... they' it's not smoke and mirrors. I think that's the thing is that it's, that's what's kind of scary about this is that, you know, and you know, winning beating the Chicago fire is not a huge deal, I suppose, but winning a road game against an Eastern conference team is just not a easy ask for any like, no, and don't think any Western conference team plays the Chicago Fire right now and thinks, oh, this is definitely a win. And and they're they're getting ah ah shocking number of those types of wins where it's like, okay, that itself is not in a vacuum, super impressive, but you stack this up against all the other wins that they're getting. And it's like, yeah, this is maybe a for real team here.
00:50:15
Speaker
They've won seven ah road games. are're seven and four on the road. And there's only one other team. Cincy is seven, four and one. And Cincy is just at a fundamentally different stage in their cycle, right? With with established players and and ah established organizational expectations. So yeah, it really is remarkable. I i do think...
00:50:35
Speaker
you know, the test is going to be, you can, you can have a great regular season and then the playoffs are are a whole new ball game. Right. So that it could all, it could all fizzle when fall comes. But, and, you know, I have to say too, my, my buddy Pablo Maurer was out in San Diego um last week and caught a game, caught the Houston game. And he said the, the vibe in the stadium was great too. You know, they seem to have done a pretty good job with,
00:50:59
Speaker
ah creating space for a good supporters culture to take root. They had an issue with El Grito, the homophobic chant in the first game or two. They stamped that out. It seems have been dealt with.
00:51:10
Speaker
um you know ah A lot of good things, a lot of you know really promising stuff happening down there. Yeah, and i I could be wrong about this, but I think LAFC in 2018 has the record for most road wins for an expansion team.
00:51:25
Speaker
They had seven. That's a deep cut, Jeremiah. that's I'm impressed if you can you can summon that. that's I'm pretty because I feel like I remember here at the time, at least, that was the record. And i mean, they're, you know, they they certainly have the record for most points for an expansion team, 57.
00:51:42
Speaker
fifty seven I believe that was not, I don't think, you yeah i don't think St. Louis beat that when they won. I know with St. Louis was the first one to win the their conference, but um This could be a real historic season for them, and it might already be.
00:51:57
Speaker
I'm going to have to double check on on that, but impressive stuff either way. um And Minnesota United is now the second place team in the Western Conference. They're doing it in like the exact, maybe not exact opposite way, but in a very different way.
00:52:13
Speaker
They keep, you know, i talked to Matt about this a couple of weeks ago, Matt Doyle. about how they you know they can't keep getting away with this type of thing with the way that they play.
00:52:24
Speaker
And yet here they are getting away. They can. Every week. Yes, it's working. It's working.
00:52:32
Speaker
Let me pause for just a sec, Jeremiah. Yeah. Yeah, you good? Okay, thanks. ah So, yeah. ah You know, speaking of teams who just can't seem to, we keep thinking are going to fall on their face, or at least I keep thinking you're going to fall on our face. we I talked to Matt Doyle about this last week or a couple weeks ago when he was on about how Minnesota United, who was doing it in a very different style.
00:52:55
Speaker
it does But ah in very much a, yeah they can't keep getting away with it. Like, I think San Diego is making believers out of a lot of this. Minnesota United continues to baffle us, I think. But here they are.
00:53:07
Speaker
four they They get a 4-1 win over San Jose. A San Jose team that has been more than respectable. ah they They led this game 3-0. they They are doing it sort of the way they are always doing it, it seems.
00:53:21
Speaker
they They don't need a whole lot of possession. They only had 42% in this game, although for them, 42% is a lot. But they they get great they get great chances.
00:53:33
Speaker
they don't They don't need to have the ball a lot. And at some point, I still feel like that might catch up with them, but it's it's nowhere near catching up with them right now, it seems. And the, oh I mean, all season, it feels like we've been talking about how they, and and I think Matt has written about this repeatedly and he has a point. yes they He feels they do need to add another club to the bag when they get into high leverage situations in knockout situations. in a knockout setting, you know, there, you need to have alternatives.
00:54:03
Speaker
And I agree with him on that in principle, but there isn't, if it isn't broke, don't fix it element to, to what they're doing right now. Because again, talking about identity and, and self-knowledge, like the, everyone's role is so clear.
00:54:16
Speaker
They, the players are clearly bought into what they do. ah They know it works. Yeah. increasingly now, we're we're we're we're again, we're in mid-July. Everyone knows what's coming, right? You know what you're going to get from the loons, but you but stopping it is a whole other matter. I mean, in the way ah um John Mueller did a great piece for The the Guardian a few days ago about the absolutely historic scale of their set piece prowess.
00:54:42
Speaker
they are so They are so dominant. They're so aggressive with set pieces. And and we have to count long throw-ins as a set piece because if they're they get a throw-in within 30, 40 meters of the opposition's goal, ah Michael Boxall, I think it is going to go up there and and put it in the danger area.
00:55:00
Speaker
And they they've clearly spent tons of time on the training ground to to be dangerous on restarts. And nobody's stopping them. I mean, you you've got to do your homework and then execute in the moment.
00:55:12
Speaker
And they were talking about, I guess, they the the ritual at Allianz Field when they get a corner kick is you know the fans stand up and wave their scarves and and and try and build that hype. It's sort of like reminiscent of when you know Timber Joey is revving the chainsaw, right? And you try and build that that sense of... of ah ah intimidation factor and anticipation.
00:55:30
Speaker
And I think they' they're talking about doing the same process with these attacking throw-ins and why not? Because it's it's remarkably effective. It is remarkably effective. ah I know it was on display here when when the Sounders lost to Minnesota right before the Club World Cup.
00:55:49
Speaker
And yeah, they're they're sitting now. I believe they set a club record for points at this point in the season for them. They're sitting on, I think, 40 points through 22 matches.
00:56:01
Speaker
And that is, you know, this is a team who, you know, when when ah there wasn't that long ago that this team seemed to be just like a sort of like falling apart.
00:56:12
Speaker
And here they are. Right. You know, right there in the supporter shield race with. Yeah. And I used to get it. 37 percent of possession. Yeah. And I mean, well, so it helps a a ton too, that they have, i think we can say two elite strikers. I mean, Tony O'Shea and Kelvin Yubo are a great pair.
00:56:29
Speaker
um i always love it when, ah you know, there's still a place in the game for the striker duo. ah duo right and that's With so many um the 4-2-3-1 becoming so dominant and and so many derivations of tactical derivations with a single striker, low number nine, and it's fun that they they are kind of they're not the only ones. The the Quakes do this too. and There's a few other examples around the league. Philly ah believe in the in the strike partnership.
00:56:56
Speaker
When you get two guys who can work together and then you build a team behind them however you know you need to, whether three in the back, five in the back, whatever, you know, however you you you figure out how everything's going to work in total.
00:57:08
Speaker
But those are two really great strikers who don't need a lot of touches. They don't need volume. They understand one another well. They're so fun to watch in transition. mean, they they don't need a volume of chances, um and but they're just, they're really crisp.
00:57:20
Speaker
their understanding of movement and combination play. It's just, it's cool. was for For being what we would call, I guess, reactive soccer rather than proactive. I think it's it's actually more enjoyable to watch maybe than than we give them credit for.
00:57:33
Speaker
Absolutely. ah So a team that seems to be going the other way, though, and and maybe this is, you know, we we can chalk this up to being a little predictable as well, is Vancouver just is coming off a 3-0 loss to the Rapids.
00:57:48
Speaker
They seem to be in a little bit of a tailspin. they that you know they They had that that win over the Sounders. But other than that, they have been really struggling to find results recently.
00:58:03
Speaker
And, you know, they they I suppose they're still dealing with some absences from the ah from from the Gold Cup. I don't know. I guess. No, it looks like most of their guys were back this week.
00:58:16
Speaker
But, you know, that they're they're now coming off consecutive three zero losses. having lost 3-0 to the Galaxy last week. They've now lost 4-5. theyve Their defense is suddenly ah leaking goals like crazy, although they do have a random one zero win over LAFC in between. The one win they have in their last five is over LAFC, one of the hottest teams in the league right now.
00:58:40
Speaker
ah So it's like I don't want to totally write them off. there But there have to be pretty – and it should also be said they've played some good teams in this stretch. they played They lost to the crew. They lost San Diego.
00:58:51
Speaker
They beat LAFC. And then, of course, they lost to the Mighty Galaxy. But um to how worried should people be about ah white – like how how how how loud are the alarm bells at this point?
00:59:04
Speaker
Well, and then it's it's starting to look like ah death by a thousand small cuts because just a little before we started recording, and there was a new batch of reports out of Vancouver about Pedro Vitae, who's been yeah massive for them, right? Maybe their most versatile player, most well-rounded player. Yeah.
00:59:20
Speaker
I think Manny Veth said 90%. ah He's hearing 90% completed deal to to sell him to to Pumas in Mexico. um So that would be ah a big loss and and not a lot of time to find a replacement on the transfer market.
00:59:36
Speaker
um And really, let's be real. like this Vancouver has never been a team that moves quickly to fill that kind of absence. like That would be pretty remarkable if they filled so that, I think.
00:59:47
Speaker
mean, I think he just he just signed a new contract earlier this year, if I remember correctly. And yeah I would imagine the deal is good enough. Like they're they're signing off on this mid-season deal with so with multiple trophies, right? Because they did they also kept got their act together enough to get past um their CPL challenger. i think it was Valor.
01:00:06
Speaker
think they edged out. right yeah got pushed Got pushed hard, but advanced in the Canadian championship. So with multiple trophies still within reach, you know i'm I'm sure that they were not eager or excited to let a midfield linchpin go, but the money is good enough. And that tells me that hopefully they'll get to reinvest a good chunk of that transfer fee, whatever it turns out to be.
01:00:26
Speaker
um But you know they the the CCC hangover, which we so so often saw, or the CCC toll maybe is a better general way to phrase it,
01:00:38
Speaker
It's so hard to compete on multiple fronts. So no, no one had ever did what they did to, to be in the supporter shield race while reaching the CONCACA champions final. And I remember, I mean, when, when, um, there was a little, a fair amount of, I guess, um,
01:00:55
Speaker
And second guessing or questioning this, their decision to, or the league's decision from what, from what Yessir Sorensen said, know, the league didn't let them move the midweek game they had against Minnesota the Wednesday before the CONCACA champions. I thought said wanted to play that game.
01:01:11
Speaker
Well, that's what they have they have said. Now, we've we've gotten two different... Oh, interesting. I haven't revisited this. It's been a month and a half now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm remembering correctly, Axel Schuster was telling anyone who listened, he went on the AFTN podcast.
01:01:24
Speaker
He told a group of reporters, including me down in Mexico City or around the time of the final, um that they want they were their data was telling them both results on the pitch and the the the physical data they had was that their players were performing at a higher level on multi-game weeks.
01:01:40
Speaker
So whatever it was, it was happening with their, their training regimen and their, their, their periodization, they were happy to be playing that game with the midweek because that was where they were, they're getting better results.
01:01:51
Speaker
And it was, it sort of like strange credulity, right? It doesn't seem possible, but when you look at the record that, that, that was exactly what was happening. I mean, he wasn't making that up. Like they were getting better results when they played in midweek.
01:02:05
Speaker
um and then But then I think subsequently was pointing out to that Sorensen had said he would have preferred to move that game. I don't know the and the internal politics, whether they whether they went to the mat to try and get MLS to move it or not. you know there's There's internal stuff there that that we can only guess at short short of um further reporting or further statements that are made on the record in public.
01:02:25
Speaker
But i you know I kind of had to felt like I needed ah to reflect Axel's voice because he was saying this so clearly. And it and I said, well, they're they they must know what they're doing because they're doing something that no one's ever done. i mean, no one had no one had done this. i mean, you go you you you'd know as well as anyone, right?
01:02:46
Speaker
That incredible Sounders Conker Champions run was at the direct cost of league results. i mean, they they ultimately never recovered um from having to prioritize CCC.
01:02:57
Speaker
so But now I think maybe maybe the timeline has just been different for the Whitecaps. Maybe the the wall that they hit um just arrived at a different period than it does for for a lot of the other teams that go on these deep runs.
01:03:09
Speaker
because it and And Matt Doyle you know's alluded to it in his weekend wrap. There's you know kind of that 5% to 10% phenomenon where... phenomenon where If everybody just is this that little bit off the pace from where they were in the spring, that can have such a holistic effect and it can have a cascading effect. Right.
01:03:29
Speaker
ah My hope is that they can find a way to stop the bleeding here by one. They they still miss Gould. Ryan Gould still hasn't been back. We thought he might be back by the end of May. Here we are mid July. I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen reporting. or the like The last thing I heard made it sound like they, they really don't know.
01:03:45
Speaker
Like they're, Like it it too read almost like this might be he might be done for the they might have shut him down for the year. But that I don't know. That's maybe I'm sure I'm talking. I certainly hope not, because that's yeah, that's that would be a brutal development for them. But it's again, we're we've now we're we're weeks past what his original stated you know recovery timeline was. And that's that's still their best player and highest paid player. and um And then if.
01:04:08
Speaker
you know i I think they've got to go out in the market. and We know that they're not necessarily known as that kind of club for the most part, when save for the you know when they were flush with the Alphonso Davies payday. so But ah this is the time because I still think they've shown so much, um but but they do. They need bodies. They need help. i mean Doing without Bearhalter and White was for the Gold Cup.
01:04:33
Speaker
um I think it was really costly. Losing Sam out of Cougbe to a season-ending injury it was also brutal for them. And that's a key piece that has he essentially hardly played at all this year. So um it's it's a tough spot for for maybe for Schuster and the executive level people in Vancouver because they don't generally get a ton to spend and they've raised everyone's expectations now.
01:04:54
Speaker
But that's the deal. I mean, it's it's close. like I still think this that what Sorensen has done is... is really impressive. and And I think they can contend, but they they need more depth.
01:05:05
Speaker
Yeah. They've already played 32 games this year. That's the most in MLS, even though they aren't in, even though that's without obviously club world cup, but that's, you know, a result of um playing through going deep in, in CONCACAF and, and being deep in Canadian championship.
01:05:20
Speaker
I guess they get a little bit of a, they're not in leagues cup. So they get a little bit of a, of a push there. So they, they might not end up with too many. Like they, I can't, I didn't realize they played 48 games last year. So this is a team that has, that's used to playing quite a few games, but yeah, they're, they have one, they've played one more game than Miami right now, ah who sick has the second most games played.
01:05:41
Speaker
So it's, know we'll We'll see how it goes, but I would say if there's one team I feel like the Sounders might be able to catch right now, Whitecaps might be it. ah But then behind them, LAFC keeps surging ahead. they They got another good win this weekend. They they beat up on ah Colorado at midweek.
01:06:04
Speaker
LAFC looking like the LAFC we thought they were, I suppose, is a way of putting it. Yeah. And I i think there's a there's a still a pretty high floor when you look at the accumulation of talent they have. John Thornton is clever roster builder.
01:06:18
Speaker
ah They did now them they've there's, I don't think they've done any so official announcements, but ah Aaron long got hurt and their last time out. And, From all accounts, it was a non-contact and it was its looks like pretty serious injury. So there's a i'm expecting that we'll probably hear results of ah hear hear confirmation that he's out for the year, which is a ah big hit.
01:06:41
Speaker
um But you know they've gotten Kosi Tafari ah waiting in the wing, so it's an opportunity for him to step up. I mean, it's a well-constructed roster. the Everything is always crystallized in modern LAFC for the last year or three about Steve Trandolo's game model and is this is he limiting this team with such a cautious, transition-centered, defensive-oriented out outlook?
01:07:05
Speaker
i i Some of my colleagues feel very strongly about this, that that he's that they should have a lot more hardware in the cabinet given what they spent and how well they've built these rosters. But then when you watch them on the week-to-week basis, like these last couple of games,
01:07:19
Speaker
they Everyone knows that that everything revolves around Dennis Buonga, right? now and And they have Nathan Ordaz as a homegrown kid who's made ah big strides, made a huge steps. i mean, I think he's possibly the most improved young player in the league this season yeah who's who's helped out a lot.
01:07:34
Speaker
But considering that you know Olivier Giroud was a bust and just went home, went back to France, having completely failed to settle on or off the pitch – given that they've just taken taken a substantial L in that sense, you know, they're, they're nine, five and five, and you've got to be really good, really disciplined and organized on an individual collective level for 90 minutes to get a result against LAFC.
01:07:58
Speaker
I mean, Buonga is, ah he's still a terror. I mean, that when he's having a good night, he's very, he's almost unplayable for any one defender. You have to get numbers around him. And then there's a cascading series of consequences when, if you double or triple him or help out his fullback,
01:08:13
Speaker
then spaces open up elsewhere and they they know how to exploit it. So certainly, Trundolo era, I think has a little bit of a haze around it as to how this is all going to end, but they're a difficult proposition.
01:08:27
Speaker
Yeah, they have one loss in their last 12 league games, which is pretty you know pretty remarkable. Pretty remarkable run. i believe they're I'm sure they're the best team in that stretch of of time.
01:08:39
Speaker
they are they They are looking like a force to be reckoned with. they Of course, I'm sure they're going to go out and sign a DP because that is unlike... you know I was kind of joking about Vancouver is not historically a team that is able to sort of get their ducks in a row and sign DPs quickly.
01:08:55
Speaker
LAFC is not that does not have that problem. It seems like they are always able to make a signing whenever they need one. They, they scrounge together the money that they need. Although this, the guy they signed for the club world cup, has he played for them yet?
01:09:09
Speaker
ah Yeah, Dilrosan. And I think he scored or or had a goal contribution last time out. I'll double check on that. But important to also know, too, like Miami, they have games in hand because of couple of cups. So they've only played 19 games and everyone around them has played 21 to 23 games.
01:09:27
Speaker
yeah So good time for them to be getting back in form. It is. Well, I've kept you for long enough. ah We've gone through the teams that I think are at this point ah contenders. and And yeah, you'll notice that I left out a team who ah is technically tied with the Sounders on points.
01:09:45
Speaker
But I don't really don't need to talk about them right now. So, you know.
01:09:53
Speaker
We didn't talk about the Sounders either. we didn't talk about the Sounders either. you know ah can Can I so hold on? Actually, we do have to talk about something. This is important. And I hate to put you on the spot.
01:10:04
Speaker
No, please. Is it time to talk about New Who? Oh, sure. we Yeah. I assume we'll we'll have a lot of time for New Who on other shows this week. But yeah, that's a good... That's a good... i mean, it's yes, it's a problem. I would say that New Who is now... I've been someone who's been willing to put up with a lot with when it comes to New Who over the years.
01:10:25
Speaker
ah you know he I understand his offensive limitations. and he's always been a a good defensive player. Even if you was sometimes prone to mental defensive lapses, but the last month or so is like a new level of sort of chaos that I don't know that because but my concern with new who is,
01:10:48
Speaker
If you can't trust a guy to be unminded for a couple minutes while a review is happening and you you need to have him babysit so closely to keep him from doing something like just throwing a ball into the stands, I don't know when you can trust him. you know ah yeah he's This is his third sort of like mental... ah and and I know there's a lot of people...
01:11:12
Speaker
in the Sounders community that are saying like, look, you know, he's made some mistakes, but why aren't we beating up on Reed Baker Whiting for that penalty? And he got sent off last game or no one's beating up on Kalani Costa Rienzi for getting a second yellow card and getting thrown off. And it's like, okay, fair enough, I suppose.
01:11:29
Speaker
But these are soccer mistakes that these guys are making. New who is making non-soccer mistakes. That's where you I think you draw the line of saying, what can we deal with? And when you can't trust a player's non... like It's one thing if you you think a player might go in for a rash challenge and you go, oh, man, I'd like to believe that you could avoid that.
01:11:49
Speaker
But i you know sometimes we're trying to make a play and we get caught up in it. these This is not ah a player who's trying to make a play. This is a guy who is just... Lost is cool. And um yeah, I mean, I don't know how, I don't know how he, he makes it back from this one, to be honest with you.
01:12:05
Speaker
It's going to be. I have such a soft spot for him because I'm so in general, I'm a, I'm a sucker for cult heroes and he's undoubtedly earned that distinction and, you know, just a great personality. And, and I, I, it's, it's been interesting to watch from a distance, which feels like a tipping point in sort of how the. Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:25
Speaker
At least the hardcore supporters, the ones who are posting the most on social media, maybe and maybe I'm giving excessive weight to that. theres been a i do think that there's been sort of a tipping point here where a lot of people who sort of just laugh and and shrug their shoulders at New Who being New Who and then...
01:12:42
Speaker
And it's like if this was an isolated incident, you'd say like, well, what are you going to do? i mean, there's always been these reports of him doing stuff off the field that you're sometimes a little worried about, but you you sort of put up with.
01:12:56
Speaker
as long as he's, you know, but you know, and the and the funny thing is that this year you almost wonder if ah of a lot of the other stuff has gotten to his head. Like he just did this video with Kenji alt Lopez, who is a a big food influencer where he was on yeah the teriyaki video. He so he did this teriyaki video and you almost wonder is like, is that kind of stuff getting to his head? He had, you know, he scored a goal for like just the second time in his career. And you kind of wonder like, did that get to his, you know, it's like these little things where it's like they, they shouldn't matter, but Maybe they do, and it's it's all little it's all a little concerning. you know im i would be I would be shocked if he's just sort of welcomed back into the fold immediately. like he will I assume he's going to get at least a two-game suspension.
01:13:41
Speaker
i would be shocked and, frankly, disappointed if he's starting as soon as he's eligible. ah If he's playing, frankly. like I feel like there has to be some... some there has to yeah like I don't know. I don't even know what you say. like What do you say to a guy? like You can't throw the ball at fans? what do like what What are you supposed to tell a player in that situation?
01:14:02
Speaker
I mean, maybe maybe there's more will come to light about that. Maybe he'll get a chance to explain himself. um Certainly looks like a challenge for Brian Schmetzer. And although I will say too, ah you know, these these kind of, it seems like,
01:14:18
Speaker
recurringly these, these kinds of challenges get dropped in, uh, in Schmetzer's lap and, and he very often figures it out, you know, and I sat, think it was last year when you, when DC, when they came through DC and he sat down with me for the better part of an hour and in one-on-one interview and just great. You know, I mean, you guys listeners know better than I do, ah what a special character Brian Schmetzer is, but, and things were going pretty bad at that point. And he said, you know, I've got to fix it. And he was fully, fully cognizant and open about the, the, being aware of the consequences, right? Nobody's spot is guaranteed. And ah he seems to find the right notes at the right times more often than not. So, but, but some work to do for sure.
01:14:58
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I just don't know how many times a player getting red carded twice in three games is, just hard to do. Like you just, I don't know how many times it's happened.
01:15:09
Speaker
The Sounders have four red cards. Statistical outlier for sure.
Sounders' Resilience Despite Red Cards
01:15:12
Speaker
Yeah. Sounders have red cards in four straight games and they've managed to get results in three of those, which is also kind of a remarkable little stat. Very impressive.
01:15:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
Acknowledging Charlie's Contributions
01:15:21
Speaker
But anyway, well, Charlie, thank you for doing this. Of course, yeah i really do appreciate all the work you put in helping us with our Club World Cup coverage. Hopefully people read your ah your essay that that came that came out on Sunday right before the game.
01:15:37
Speaker
ah But also hopefully people are reading you over at MLS soccer and and following you on Blue Sky. Anything else you want to plug? No, I think that's that. Yeah, it it was such a pleasure to to to get a couple of Sounder at Hard Bylines. I hope everybody clicks on them.
Humorous Takes on Club World Cup
01:15:53
Speaker
Yeah. hope people are buying lots of houses from your sister. Hopefully the Club will ah club World Cup bump is their movie they're moving units over there. and yeah you know making the housing the the housing market that much hotter in the Puget Sound region.
01:16:10
Speaker
And don't know, maybe I'm going to try and talk you into a few more bylines now and again. Oh, we're definitely open to that. If I really play my cards right, but it's been a pleasure and I hope I can get back there
Charlie's Future Attendance and Podcast Conclusion
01:16:23
Speaker
for... I've still only done one Sounders game at Lumen Field in my life, which feels short. So I hope I get a chance to go back soon. Yeah.
01:16:33
Speaker
All right, man. Well, we'll catch you later. I am Jeremiah Oshian. This is Nos Adietes, and we'll catch you next time.
LAFC Match Anticipation
01:17:06
Speaker
I expect the LAFC who's motivated ah to prove themselves at home, to prove to their fans that that they're capable of winning in this league. And it's up to us to really ruin the party.
01:17:22
Speaker
i feel a lot better than Bob.