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The Leaf Killer
39 Plays4 months ago
On November 10, 2010, Tina Herrmann didn't report for her shift at Dairy Queen. When concerned coworkers called police to report her missing, no one could expect the scene that would be found in Herrmann's home. Join Kayley and Siera as they cover murder, abduction, and . . . leaves?
Sources:
https://www.nbc.com/twisted-killers/video/the-leaf-killer/9000226741
https://abcnews.go.com/US/killer-matthew-hoffman-stockpiled-leaves-ohio-home-made/story?id=12877942
https://www.oxygen.com/twisted-killers/crime-news/why-matthew-hoffman-is-known-as-leaf-killer
https://nypost.com/2010/11/20/slain-ohio-family-were-stabbed-to-death/
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna40258902
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/us/07brfs-GUILTYPLEAIN_BRF.html
https://www.healthline.com/health/dendrophilia
https://appgateway.drc.ohio.gov/OffenderSearch/Search/Details/A645571
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Transcript
Introduction to True Crime and Punishment
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey, I'm Kaley. And I'm Sierra. And this is True Crime and Punishment.
The Leaf Killer Case Overview
00:00:07
Speaker
Today, Kaley will be telling us about the case of the leaf killer. The leaf killer.
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm assuming this has nothing to do with a leaf blower or a rake. Probably not. This is actually the strangest reason for a killer to be called what they're called. It's not like it doesn't connect, but it's the connection is so bizarre.
Tina Herman's Disappearance
00:00:37
Speaker
Oh, do tell us more. All right. This is the case of the leaf killer. This case actually was 2010. So it's kind of more unusual to have such a interesting name nowadays. with an i Well, I guess that's almost 15 years ago, but still more recent, recent. And for someone to be given a name by the media's, you know, they've done something messed up. All right. So our case starts on Wednesday, November 10th of 2010.
00:01:07
Speaker
32-year-old single mother Tina Herman didn't report to work at the local Dairy Queen.
Initial Police Investigation
00:01:12
Speaker
This was very out of character for Herman. She was known as a reliable worker and she was a dedicated mother to two children, 13-year-old Sarah and 11-year-old Cody. Since it was unusual to not hear from Tina, Herman's manager decided to call the police and report that she hadn't shown up to work and that she hadn't called to say that she wasn't going to be there.
00:01:33
Speaker
So it was a kind of smaller town, closer knit. And so they had a sheriff's department there. So it wasn't necessarily that strange that she chose to call the cops because her worker didn't show up. It was it was definitely out of concern.
00:01:48
Speaker
And the police did take this seriously. They sent a deputy to do a welfare check on the family. However, the welfare check was only conducted from outside of the home. There was no reason evident for him to be able to enter the home. No one answered the door. So he did a welfare check from outside of the house and saw nothing amiss.
Rising Alarms and Crime Scene Discovery
00:02:05
Speaker
On Thursday, November 11th, the police received another call. This time, a man called to report his girlfriend, 41-year-old Stephanie Sprang, as missing. Now, this was odd because Stephanie Sprang was a friend of Tina Herman's, and her last known location was she had been going to the Herman house to help Tina move. She had not checked back in with her boyfriend, and he hadn't seen her since the day before.
00:02:30
Speaker
So we called to report her as missing. So also on the 11th, authorities would receive a second call again from Tina's manager. This time ah her coworker was calling from inside of the house. Since Tina hadn't shown up for two days in a row and they hadn't heard from her, ah her coworker had swung by and had actually gone into the house. And when she called, she said that there was blood everywhere just spattered across the house.
00:02:56
Speaker
This was concerning to police. um They heard from different witnesses after the fact that apparently Herman and her boyfriend, a man by the name of Greg Borders, had something of a turbulent relationship. Herman and Borders did live together. This was technically Greg's house, um but she was moving out.
00:03:14
Speaker
and said Oh, that's why her friend was there to help her move. I assumed it was moving into the house, but that makes more sense now. Okay. They were moving out. Tina and her two kids would be moving out. Dan Winterick, a retired special agent with the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation, told reporters that Tina was planning on moving out of Greg's house and that her friend Stephanie, she was there to help her move. um That was on the 10th of November.
00:03:37
Speaker
so They already have kind of an idea that there's a turbulent relationship in this house, and maybe they have reason to be concerned. So when they entered the home, they knew what they were going to find. They knew that it was going to be blood spattered around. So when they officers entered the house, they reported that several things were immediately evident. Whoever had been there had been sloppy, which is good, makes it easier to kind of track somebody down, but that it was a chilling crime scene. know Let's just say it that way.
00:04:07
Speaker
So they found three main areas where blood had pooled. There were drag marks in the blood spatter in the living room in the two bedrooms of the home. And according to enteric, investigators found no evidence of gunshots. So there was no bullet casings, bullet holes anywhere. um And the blood spatter did not match that of a gunshot wound. So they knew that a gun had not been used to cause as much bleeding. Because of this, they assumed that whoever had attacked the family had used either blunt force or sharp force trauma.
00:04:34
Speaker
ah And they found no bodies, right? Just blood so far? No bodies, just blood. ah And they actually wouldn't find bodies in the house. So at this point, Tina, Sarah, Cody, and Stephanie are all just missing, but there is a massive amount of blood in the home.
Walmart Footage and Suspect Identification
00:04:50
Speaker
oh They also found drag marks and tissue in the bathroom. Inside the tub, the shower curtain showed evidence that there at one point had been two inches of bloods just standing in the tub.
00:05:01
Speaker
oh
00:05:04
Speaker
because of the volume of blood, investigators assumed that victims had been dismembered in the bathtub. Oh my goodness. So can they can they figure out with all the blood whose blood it is? Like can they separate that or was it all just kind of...
00:05:21
Speaker
They would need DNA to kind of compare it against. okay um But from the looks of it, they really couldn't. And then in the bathtub, I think it would be impossible because they only know it's two inches of standing blood because it it rose two inches on the shower curtain. At some point in a bathtub, there's two inches of standing blood. That's a crazy amount of blood to think of. Yeah.
00:05:42
Speaker
So since we had four people missing, no bodies to be found, and the amount of blood in the home, investigators were considering the possibility that all four victims were dead. However, they were actually sure it was four victims. There were two sets of shoe prints left in the blood on the floors. Oh. And in Sarah's room, investigators found a shoebox for a pair of shoes that the tread on the shoe would have matched the shoe prints found in the blood.
00:06:10
Speaker
So this means investigators can pursue this from two different angles. One angle that Sarah was somehow involved and was freely walking around in the blood in the home before leaving. Or she had been abducted following whatever murder had taken place in the house. ah Remember, Sarah's 13, so it's not unheard of for something like this to happen.
00:06:36
Speaker
um that a 13 year old get mixed up with somebody or something and just kind of.
00:06:43
Speaker
have something like this happen. However, investigators did believe that she had been abducted, not that she had been part of the murder plot, and they would investigate from that perspective. Even though they couldn't technically rule out her involvement, I will say she was not involved. but Okay, ah that's good. I don't want to make it. I'm not trying to make this sound like a mystery like, Oh, was she was she was she not she was not. Oh, but that means that he might have forced her to help or whoever the perpetrator was might have forced her to like help him move stuff and Oh. Either way, she did have to walk through blood in the house. Poor Sarah. um So investigators began to put together a timeline of events, and they were actually able to do this in a very interesting way. Since this is a more modern case, we can look at the investigation much more closely. In the house, there was a grocery bag, and in that grocery bag was a receipt. And this timestamp of the checkout time was around noon on Wednesday.
00:07:38
Speaker
so the day before which let investigators know that whatever had happened had to have occurred between noon and 4 p.m. 4 p.m. is when Tina was supposed to be reporting at work to clock in and so they called after her shift would have started and then they sent an officer out there so between noon and 4 p.m. is when something must have gone down in the house. Greg Borden, Tina's boyfriend or ex-boyfriend at that point, was questioned on Friday.
00:08:06
Speaker
He said that while he and Tina had been on again, off again, um there had never been any violence between the two of them. And this was supported. There was no police report saying that there had been domestic violence in the home or anything like that. um They were just kind of on again, off again. We don't know the details of the relationship. Maybe I just missed something, but you said it was technically Greg's house, right? Yes. So how did he not, where was he? Like, what was his alibi?
00:08:35
Speaker
Um, I'm going to assume that he wasn't in the home because this happens from Wednesday. They find the blood on Thursday and then they question him on Friday. Okay. So it might seem weird that he wasn't in the home from Wednesday to Friday, but really he wasn't in the home from Wednesday on Thursday when the investigation started because I think it makes sense to me if you if you had a partner moving out and moving their children out. That's true. Yeah, you make yourself kind of scarce. And he had family in the
Search of Hoffman's House
00:09:06
Speaker
area. He's from that area. Oh, OK. I do believe this one. I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. But I imagine he wasn't in the home because she was moving out and they had a turbulent relationship. And when you're breaking up with somebody and moving out of their house, even if you are civil, you're not going to be on the best of terms with them. and then um
00:09:27
Speaker
Cody and Sarah, they weren't his children. o okay So it was it wasn't, I don't think it was odd that he wasn't there. And then police would check into his alibi because he said that he had been at work from noon to four on Wednesday, and this was rock solid. He absolutely wasn't at work, so we can rule him out. good After this, police had to look at everything again and say, I don't think someone who knew the family did this.
00:09:50
Speaker
which is kind of, which is interesting because usually when you think of like sharp force trauma or blunt force trauma, you kind of think, oh, this has to be personal, um which isn't always the case. This could be something as simple as a matter of opportunity, or perhaps a burglary gone wrong. It would have to go pretty wrong to have to, because if they think somebody, people were dismembered in the bathtub, like that goes beyond burglary, I think.
00:10:17
Speaker
Well, if you're trying to hide a body, we talked about this in Cleveland torso killer that case where it was so odd that he was doing this so quickly. And we talked about hesitation marks and things like that, because usually when you're just remembering a body, you're doing it to hide it, not for well, torso murder was doing it because he seemed to enjoy it. So, but yeah, so it is kind of, it's kind of odd, but I think if you're killing people, you kind of lost the plot already. That's true.
00:10:45
Speaker
But yeah, I do think that is odd. There's something, and we'll get into why I think this is so weird later, because unfortunately, while this is already like a gnarly case, because any type, loss of life is always difficult um and always sad. But there's something that we have to discuss at the end of this case that, um oh no, it's already pretty out there, so. Okay. Yeah.
00:11:07
Speaker
um Anyway, so let's see. So police thought this had been committed by a stranger. Greg was ruled out or boredom was ruled out entirely. He's alibi was, I saw it quoted as rock solid. He was no longer under consideration. So they're moving pretty quickly um because he was interviewed two days the day after.
00:11:27
Speaker
So they would have been committed by a stranger. And so what they did was as they were going through the house in their investigation, they found in the garage garbage bags and tarps. And they did not believe that they had belonged to Tina Herman or Greg Borden, that she hadn't purchased them. They thought the killer purchased them and brought them with him. They began to investigate about Again, it's a small town, so they went to the local Walmart. They requested footage. Turns out, someone from town had purchased tarps and garbage bags just after midnight on Wednesday at the 10th. Oh, and then left them there because apparently this is the sloppiest murderer alive, which good. Makes it easier to find you and throw you in a deep dark hole somewhere and never let you see the light of day. But, so ah just after midnight on Wednesday the 10th, so it gets time for that would be early Thursday morning.
00:12:25
Speaker
The footage showed a white adult male who reportedly didn't seem to be in any sort of rush. Just walked in. um He didn't need assistance to find the aisle. He didn't seem to look around for the aisle. He knew exactly where to go to find what he needed.
00:12:38
Speaker
And this was in an article I was reading and I thought it was kind of an odd detailed dimension to include because I made the assumption incorrectly that the reporter was trying to say, he's a murderer. He knows where the garbage bags are. He found the tarps with no assistance. And then I kept reading.
00:12:56
Speaker
Which, again, that would be a totally weak link because I was thinking, oh, I know where the lawn bags and like tarps are at my local Walmart. I wouldn't need help. I wouldn't look confused trying to go find them. I wouldn't look confused trying to find a great many of suspicious things like bleach, knives, all that. um Should we be concerned? Apparently, once I did buy like kitchen knives and bleach from Walmart and then realized that I looked really crazy and went and grabbed a couple of other things, I was just moving.
00:13:25
Speaker
and needed to c clean because it was like I think it was literally like a thing of bleach kitchen knives and trash bags and I was like ooh went back and grabbed like some groceries that I didn't technically need but I was like
00:13:39
Speaker
um But I had to deep clean the apartment I was moving out of and I needed kitchen knives for the new apartment I was moving into I love that because couldn't borrow my roommates anymore. So um Anyway, that's not important. But so I'm like, yeah, that's not weird. I would be able to find things in Walmart just pretty easily that wouldn't be odd to me, but It was actually I thought this was pretty cool Police noted when speaking to the reporters that the fact that he walked right in, knew what he was looking for and found it immediately, spoke to the fact that not that he was a murderer, but that he was local. Yes, because he knows the layout of that Walmart. Mm-hmm. And even though I knew Walmart is like a chain store here and everywhere. You go to a new Walmart, you're not going to know where anything is. Yeah. Even if you know your own Walmart, like the back of your hand. So that's a really good point that he knew what he was looking for. So he wasn't some drifter from out of state.
00:14:34
Speaker
most likely. They couldn't tell from the video who he was. No, it wasn't clear enough quite to be like, Oh, that's just so and so from down the road. and um So he knew that he knew the Walmart, which means he's probably from around there. So this made it pretty easy but what they how they found the guy because they found the guy police used footage from walmart and followed him through the store and then followed him out to the parking lot and saw him get into his car his vehicle registration led them straight to 30 year old matthew hoffman hoffman was local he lived less than half a mile away from the herman residence he had a rap sheet
00:15:15
Speaker
which contained charges for a burglary in arson in Colorado where he'd spent six years in prison for said charges. oh Apparently, he'd attempted to burn a house down to cover up a burglary. ah so He clearly, he's willing to do whatever it takes to cover him his tracks.
00:15:34
Speaker
right ah He'd only returned to Ohio in 2007 after being released. He was a, at the time, unemployed tree trimmer by trade. Remember that. Oh dear. Investigators then requested and were granted a no knock search warrant to investigate Hoffman's home. And I figured we'd get a little bit into what a no knock warrant is because why not? This is a fairly straightforward case. um A no knock warrant is ah warrant a court issued warrant.
00:16:05
Speaker
that allows law enforcement to enter a property without knocking or announcing their presence, which, duh, no knock is pretty straightforward. But they're also not required to say police were coming in. They just enter the home. They don't have to knock. They don't have to announce themselves.
00:16:22
Speaker
There are you specifically when there is a threat to the safety of the officers or a perceived threat because they can't know 100% sure, but they can assume um when they're worried that the perpetrator or suspected perpetrator would destroy evidence before officers can get in and secure the area, or when the unannounced entry is necessary to prevent the escape of a suspect. So for the safety of officers or others, so if they're say there's a kidnapping, and they think the child or person is in the home, they're not gonna say police are here, because then what if that person's armed, whoever they're here for? So they're actually, um no-knock warrants are a legal exception, because even search warrants, they're not no-knock warrants, you can't just kind of show up and not announce yourself if you're going to go through someone's home. But if you're getting a no-knock warrant, that means serious business, something they're expecting retaliation, or they need to be quick and efficient.
00:17:15
Speaker
They're a constitutional requirement because even now, like if you ever see like a cop show, terrible, terrible thing to think about like or compare, but you think of a cop show and you think of how even when you see them like peeking through the windows and they need to get into this house and they're like, can you even when they're trying to be like dramatic and like, oh, well, I think I hear someone screaming for help, don't you? And they're obviously like trying to, even then, if the procedural show is done correctly, they will knock and say, please, and then go in.
00:17:44
Speaker
That's a typical warrant. You have to announce your presence. So they actually became popular in the 1980s during the war on drugs. They're kind of, they become increasingly controversial over the past few years because of the risks associated with the No-Knock warrant. Because we live in America. If someone were to bust into my house, I have a constitutional right if I had a firearm to defend myself with said firearm.
00:18:09
Speaker
hu So, but if police are coming into your house and you're shooting at police because someone's breaking into your house, they also have the right to return force. So it's it's controversial. yeah Rightfully so. there has been um concern that escalates situations that don't need to be escalated. And I would agree with that, but we're not going to get too far into that. I just thought it was interesting. Yeah. I can see it from both sides because yeah, I know for sure in my house, like that would not turn out well if someone just bursts in unawares to us. But at the same time, I could also see what you're saying like about a kidnapping scenario or something like that. So that's hard. So I'm assuming these are very, you said they're an exception. Are they a very rare exception?
00:18:50
Speaker
I don't know how rare of an exception they are, but they definitely are an exception. And it would have to be a fairly like crucial matter to get one approved because again, it's a court approved situation. You're not just going to get one on the fly. but So I think situationally, they'll be considered appropriately if you have trust in our justice system. I have another question actually about warrants since we're on the topic.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah. This is tying back just to my knowledge of TV shows. You said court approved. Do you mean like just a judge like and referring to the judge as the court? Okay. Yep. They don't have to get like a...
00:19:30
Speaker
draw it dry the whole thing. You have to get a judge's approval but um in order to execute a warrant. So, good question. Thank you.
Discovery in Hoffman's Basement
00:19:40
Speaker
So, since they had this nice, ah lovely no-knock warrant, early morning on November 15th, a SWAT team entered Hoffman's home and detained him on the spot.
00:19:49
Speaker
nice this is exactly this is where we get um what gives this man the title of leaf killer i sent you an email earlier now it's probably a good time to take a look at that i'm scared don't be too scared what gives this case infamy is was the state of hoffman's home inside the house were piles and piles of leaves. So many piles. Kaylee sent me pictures. I'm looking at the living room right now. He has a tarp on the floor, and it's just entirely covered with leaves. The living room was living room bathroom is like full of bags and bags of leaves. And these weren't like normal bags. They were like, Sierra's looking right now, looking incredulously. I see a Kmart bag, Walmart bag, another store that I don't know what that is. Major? Meijer?
00:20:40
Speaker
Meyer, that's a alp Ohio, Michigan store. And some other. Wow. Holy cow. That they're full and it's like it's all around his toilet. They're like, I want to say stapled to the wall. Yeah, it looks like they're attached to the wall. That is the weirdest thing. Well, you can Google it and see these pictures. They're not graphic by any means, but they're just strange. And this was all throughout his house. It's just every surface is like covered in leaves. Some of them are loose. Some of them are bags. Some of these were just kind of scattered around. It looks like his quilted leaves on it too for a second, like in the pattern. Sorry, that just says
00:21:18
Speaker
That's the basement, we'll get to that in a second. Oh my goodness. But there's just leaves everywhere. Remember, he was an unemployed tree trimmer. So, hey trip police reported- He trimmed those trees. Yeah, he did something to those trees. Police reported that there were more than 100 bags of leaves in the home. And as a side note, I just found this disturbing. It doesn't really have anything to do with leaves. They also reported that the freezer only had, quote, a couple of red popsicles and two dead squirrels.
00:21:47
Speaker
That's all that was in his freezer. Interesting. Yeah. Just a couple of squirrels. Were they skinned or anything? Or was it like, I'm assuming it's just the dead squirrel. They just said that they were dead squirrels, which leads me to believe that they were just pitched in their wholesale. Ew, fur and all. Hmm. Gross.
00:22:07
Speaker
It's the red popsicles for me. I have red popsicles in my freezer, but no dead squirrels. Kaylee, we need to be concerned now. You know exactly where the bleach is. You know exactly where the knives are in Walmart. and You would know where the tarps are, and now you have red popsicles in your freezer. It's that red dye 40, man. I don't have dead squirrels. I don't have any meat in my freezer. I have some impossible chicken nuggets. Okay, then you're safe. Yeah. Okay.
00:22:33
Speaker
so Rightfully so, investigators were nervous to start digging through these leaves, um worried about what could be hidden in there. Bodies, weapons, who knows, they were actually very, very, um the leaves were reportedly deep enough to hide a body or several bodies. Mount Vernon police detective Craig Feeney told the Columbus Dispatch, so much runs through your mind, what if someone is hiding under that pile? Or in this case, I thought, is that where he's hiding the bodies? Because there is that many leaves.
00:23:06
Speaker
Did they smell anything, like decomposition when they walked in? I can't imagine the audience's house smelled great, given the dead squirrels with it all. um But there's nothing, they did not smell a major smell of decomposition. At this point, it had been five days, so you would have been smelling something. It was November, so it was colder, but it was also indoors. But they searched through the leaves and turned up nothing upstairs in the living room.
00:23:33
Speaker
However, police would go into the basement and that's that picture with that quilt I was i sent you. and there yeah And there they would find Sarah bound and gagged and sitting on a pile of leaves on a strange makeshift bed. That's what all those quilts are. okay huh And he'd had her there for four days.
00:23:54
Speaker
oh Um, also down there or somewhere in the crime scene, they found a black investigators found a black Jack club and a quote heavy duty knife. Both were assumed to have been murder slash dismemberment weapons.
00:24:08
Speaker
ah
00:24:12
Speaker
When Sarah was removed from the home, she was taken to be interviewed. She told investigators that she and Cody had come home from school to find blood all over the floor. She called for her mother before a strange man had ambushed them. She said that she had run and locked herself in another room, but the man came in and held a knife to her chest. He told her that if she screamed, he would kill her. This man, it was Hoffman. He blindfolded her and tied her hands, and later he dragged her out of the house and brought her to his home. He put her on a strange bed of leaves in the basement. Later he would return and sexually assault her. In custody, Hoffman initially refused to speak to investigators.
00:24:49
Speaker
But on November 18th, he took a deal. If the death penalty was removed from consideration, he would show the investigators where he'd hidden the bodies of Tina, Cody, and Stephanie.
Hoffman's Confession and Sentencing
00:25:01
Speaker
So he took this deal, and then when he finally spoke, he told investigators that had just been a burglary that had gone wrong. He had supposedly been staking out Tina's house for days, memorizing her schedule. He'd been in her house robbing her when she'd come home, and he'd killed her.
00:25:18
Speaker
Then later, Stephanie arrived, and he'd killed her. Then when the children came home from school, he'd killed Cody. All three had been stabbed to death in the neck and chest before being dismembered.
00:25:34
Speaker
When he dismembered his victims, he'd put their body parts into those trash bags, and then he hid the remains in a hollow tree in a wildlife preserve in Frederick Town. This is about 20 miles away from the Herman home.
00:25:47
Speaker
Um, I also saw his, um, Greg border's uncle. We'll talk a little bit about him later. He said that in that tree, they found the bodies of Cody, Tina, and Stephanie. They also found the remains of the family's dog. Um, so he killed the family dog as well. Well, that makes sense because it probably bark a lot and stuff. and Yeah, that's awesome. The body, I believe the dog's name was Tanner. Oh.
00:26:12
Speaker
And he'd put all three of them and the dog in the tree. How big was this tree? It was a pretty big hollow tree. And remember, they're not in one piece. Oh, that's true. That's true. Oh, right. But still, that's a lot. But it's two grown adult women and then an 11-year-old boy and a dog. So it was a fairly... Ugh.
00:26:37
Speaker
But when the authorities recovered the bodies, um Knox County Sheriff David Barber said that part of the tree had to be removed to take out the remains. According to investigators, Hoffman apparently wanted photographic evidence that the sheriff's department hadn't destroyed the tree. Oh my word. He cares more about a tree than about the human lives he just took.
00:27:05
Speaker
Yep. That's disgusting. That's not why you called him. So and for context, in the fourth picture, Kaylee sent me, because she had labels for each of them, Hoffman's living room, Hoffman's bathroom, the basement. And then the last picture is a picture of Hoffman, and she labeled it the tree pervert himself.
00:27:26
Speaker
but well but There's more we'll talk about that as well, but yeah tree pervert. I don't care He's a nasty disgusting piece of trash human. Yeah, I showed him pictures of that tree decimated Did they treat of it? perfect I know i they had to cut it up. Anyway, let him suffer. I Didn't see anything. I don't think they killed the tree It was a hollow tree. How alive could it have been? And I don't know. I don't know if they showed him pictures just that he apparently was demanding them and
00:27:58
Speaker
Ugh. Hoffman faced a total of 10 counts. So three counts of aggravated murder, three counts of gross a abuse of a corpse, one count each of aggravated burglary, tampering with evidence, kidnapping, and rape. Hoffman pleaded guilty and was sentenced to life in prison without the chance of parole. He has been incarcerated at Toledo Correctional Institution since January 7th of 2011. Man. He will never leave. Good. Good.
00:28:28
Speaker
and I hope he doesn't get yard time. Anyway.
00:28:33
Speaker
Greg borders Uncle Joe Pisa told the New York Post that he was the first person allowed into the house after the investigation. He wanted to clean up the blood so his nephew wouldn't have to see it. Oh, that's terrible. good uncle Yeah. And, uh, border was staying with his uncle after this. Um, and he also said that his, his nephew had no intention to move back into that house, but I can understand why, he's like but if he ever had to be in it again, he didn't want him to see that. Yeah. Um, Joe said it was terrible. Everything led back to the bathroom.
00:29:05
Speaker
So where he yeah dragged the bodies. Wait, I have a question. Why is he doing that? Aren't there like crime cleanup crews, crime scene cleanup crews? Why does the uncle have to go in and do that? they create There's crime cleanup crews, but they are not typically hired by police stations. They're hired by individuals.
00:29:28
Speaker
Oh, it costs a lot of money. I'm sure. And this is also in 2011. I don't know. They can't I don't think anyone could legally tell you you can't clean up the blood from something that happened in your own home. And but yeah, ah from what I understand, and this is all coming from you know, Instagram reels and things like that. This is not official research information. But people who do that kind of work, they're usually contracted by private individuals or by companies, they're not but necessarily part, they're not part of the police force. Okay. Because it's just it's biohazard clean up because blood. Yeah. Because I know they also clean up after like car accidents, because once my mom and I got in a car accident, and um we went to go get something out of the car after
00:30:15
Speaker
And they were pointing at the ceiling of the car and they're like, yeah, we're going to have to get somebody in here to clean all that up. Cause it's biohazard material. Um, and we're like, what? Cause it, it wasn't blood. It was a smoothie that had been in my hand that the airbag had knocked out of my hand, but when it dried, it did look remarkably like blood. We're like, no, that's, that's a smoothie. And they're like, okay, great. Cause it would have cost more to, we would have, they would build our insurance obviously, but they were like, yeah, it would have cost a lot more to get that cleaned up. Cause we would have had to hire it out. So it's kind of. Okay. So unnecessary information.
Background on Matthew Hoffman
00:30:45
Speaker
But apparently, Borders' uncle Joe said that the family thought some of them had been watching them leading up to the murder. Several months before, they'd seen a man in camouflage sitting on a so tree stump across the street, just watching them. So Greg Borders couldn't say for sure if the man that he they'd seen had been Hoffman, but he thought that it was him. So he wouldn't say 100% it was that guy, but he he thought that that must have been the man who'd been watching them.
00:31:12
Speaker
ah So sad when you have that foreshadowing and they have an uneasy sense about it, but you just don't know. Yeah. And so there's been so much back and forth whether or not did he do this to rob them or did he do this because he wanted to assault Sarah? There was evidence of a burglary and he did at least attempt to do it while the family was out of the home. I don't know where I stand on that.
00:31:39
Speaker
um but He was charged for a burglary and for kidnapping and assault and everything you know that he did. so it He said he'd been casing the family for several days, but if he was had been on that stump months before, ah who who knows? he just Well, he wasn't very careful. He sounds to me like he's, you know, crazy and just kind of goes with the flow. So he might have started out as burglary or was kind of going back and forth and then was like, Oh, well, I'm doing this now. It seems like he is a man controlled by whim. Yeah. Because look at his house. So I think we're but let's get into the question. um I think it's on everyone's mind. ah What's with the leaves? Please explain to us what is with these stupid leaves.
00:32:25
Speaker
Now this is almost a conjecture. We don't have an official statement from Hoffman, which great. I don't want to ever hear anything that man has to say. oh Um, investigators believe that it's something called dendrophilia. That's a real thing. Yep. And Sierra, if I have to know this, so do you. Oh heavens. I don't know that I want to know. Dendrophilia can refer to a love of trees or tree related things. It's also a psychological disorder where people are sexually attracted to trees.
00:32:57
Speaker
I'm going out on a limb here and saying that Maddie boy's obsession was a little more of that second one. Yeah. Neighbors reported that Hoffman was seeing was often seen collecting leaves on walks through local parks. He was a tree trimmer by trade, which I mean, if you're like into trees, why are you cutting them up? But you also heard of three people, so I really don't care. Another neighbor reported that Hoffman had been seen sitting in trees, listening to people as they walked by. Oh, that's creepy.
00:33:26
Speaker
Apparently, this is all according to Healthline. bo Some people report a platonic attraction to trees, the direct quote being, no, some individuals with dendrophilia are attracted to trees in a passionate but platonic way. They may happily call themselves tree huggers because they find solace and connection being amongst nature, trees in particular. Plant them, grow them, and nurture them. Others may see trees as related to sexuality while not engaging in a sexual way.
00:33:56
Speaker
don't understand why you'd phrase liking trees like just liking trees is platonic instead of like the normal freaking way to like trees but there you go that's what health mine said i I enjoy well now I feel icky even saying that I like looking at trees like they're a beautiful part of nature but I've never had any passionate feelings for a tree I can't imagine looking at something non-human and saying, I have a platonic attraction to that. Because platonic attraction implies sentience, at least I thought it did. I'm not going to start saying, I have a non-sexual love of macaroni and cheese. I just love carbs. Platonically.
00:34:44
Speaker
Oh, well that makes sense why he was so worried about this stupid tree being cut apart or whatever. I hope somebody sends him a calendar of just broken down dead trees and forest trees being, yeah, forest fires. He raped a 13 year old, but he was worried about a tree? Yeah, no. I hope he has nightmares about trees for the rest of his life. So, yeah, I just, I think just the fact that like he killed people, but he also has a tree fetish.
00:35:14
Speaker
and Well, no wonder he's called the Leaf Killer. Mm-hmm. His house was full of leaves. But what's odd to me is apparently he was worried about the Hollow Tree being destroyed, but his house was full of dead leaves. Yeah, but that's kind of natural. Like, leaves are supposed to die and fall. I don't know. We're all supposed to die.
00:35:33
Speaker
Also, wouldn't you count that as like, if you have, okay, I can't even believe that I'm uttering this statement, but if you have a passionate regard for trees, why would you defile your beloved hollow tree with dead corpses? I don't know, maybe he had like some sort of connection and he thought this hollow tree will save me. Clearly he didn't care about dead bodies, but like, also a tree? Splinters.
00:36:05
Speaker
I don't know. But like, I'm not here to talk about what everybody likes in their personal life. But like, could you imagine being arrested for murder? And then you also get outed as having some sort of weird perverted tree fetish? Good.
00:36:28
Speaker
like Yeah, it just it irks me so much that he cared more about that tree than the people like yeah, clearly there's there's something wrong there Just And I think the thing to be so bold as to ask officers who just had to drag out the body of a 32 year old 41 year old 32 and 41 year old woman and then 11 year old boy and their family dog be like you didn't hurt the tree did you I Cause you'd be a real monster if you heard that tree. Oh my word. These cops, someone give them a raise. Oh my goodness. How do you not like just, I don't know, bring a bonsai and light it on fire in front of them and just be like, like psychological warfare. Anyway, that's the case of Matthew Hoffman, rapist, murderer, and all around terrible person. He's serving life in prison where hopefully he doesn't have access to the outdoors.
00:37:28
Speaker
That reminds me of the book of Jonah, where Jonah is complaining because God spared the city of Nineveh, so he's sitting outside just complaining about it. You can edit this out later if it's too biblical.
00:37:41
Speaker
um but he's sitting out in the hot sun. So God causes this plant to grow and give him shade. And so he's pleased about that. But then God sends like a worm that eats the plant and it dies the next day. And he is so upset about the plant. And God says to him, are you doing well to be angry for the gourd? And Jonah's like, I do well to be angry, even unto death. And the Lord said, well, you have pity for the gourd, but you have no pity for the people that are in Nineveh. So maybe, maybe Jonah,
00:38:09
Speaker
had the platonic version of, what's it called again? Dendrophilia? Dendrophilia. Maybe. Jonah was a platonic dendrophiliac. Tell that to your Sunday school teacher.
00:38:24
Speaker
ah What Jonah had, what Matthew Hoffman clearly had, probably still has, um is misplaced values. When you care more about the life of a tree than
00:38:39
Speaker
murdering three people.
00:38:42
Speaker
Just disgusting. Yeah. Do you have any information about Sarah and what she did after, like, did she have family to go to? She had her dad. It looks like she went to her dad after um because Greg Borden wasn't her father. um I didn't use ah Sarah and Cody's last name. They have a different last name than their mom.
00:39:02
Speaker
um But she actually, there's a book called The Girl in the Leaves written by Robert Scott and then Sarah and her father, Larry. So from what I can tell, she's doing all right. you know she's now I didn't want to look too much into her life. Yeah.
00:39:28
Speaker
I don't think she's a really public figure. um I think she has an Instagram if that's the right individual, but um she was able to go with her father. She wrote this book, which I didn't have a shot to read it. um It seemed like it was a lot of background information and I really just didn't read it. I think I might buy it and read it from thrift books. so I couldn't find an online version. i didn't have enough time and I didn't have a tight enough turnaround to actually get the book shipped to me. yeah um But from what I can tell, she's doing all right now.
00:39:57
Speaker
Okay, that's good. And she had family to go to after so at least she didn't have to go through that and then be put straight into like a foster care system or something like that. so So yeah, that is the story of Matthew Hoffman, the leaf killer. Wow.
00:40:19
Speaker
Disgusting. Absolutely. That was not what I was expecting. I kind of figured it was called that because like he must have used some sort of outdoor weapon or something. Like that's kind of what I was picturing. I did not see any of that coming. Nope. I mean, I don't think anyone, i maybe I'm just ignorant, but I didn't think we'd have a term for people attracted to trees.
00:40:45
Speaker
I didn't know that was a thing. I'm not going to say I didn't think people were into weird stuff, because like, of course, there are a lot of people out there. But the fact we have a term for it, that it's common enough to have a term. That's that's weird. Although the focus of this case should be the people that he killed. um It's just like, but his house was covered in it leaves. And from what I could tell, I think of that not maybe not the time, but he had a girlfriend. And like,
00:41:14
Speaker
who at one point she said something about him throwing her into a wall the month before or something like that. And it sounds like the girlfriend had a son. um I don't know if they lived with him in the leaf house or if this was some sort of breakdown after she left. ah But yikes. So many leaves and why the Walmart bags? I just don't understand. um Trust me, I don't want to understand.
00:41:44
Speaker
Yeah, but I actually don't understand. Yeah, that is the story of the leaf pervert, as I prefer to call him. If we were focusing once more on the victims and like thinking about that, like it's a good reminder.
00:42:02
Speaker
Because like thinking about poor Cody and Sarah, like and I was even thinking, like what would I do if I came home like as a kid and my house was covered in blood? like What should your first reaction be? like We never think about having to talk about like kids with that, but maybe you know they always talk about have a plan for fires, have a plan for yada yada, make sure your whole family knows it. But maybe as dark as that is, it should be something else to consider adding to. Yeah, it made me not like quite as on the nose as What do you do if you come home and there's blood everywhere? But what do you do if you come home and something's not right? Exactly. What do you do if you come home and the house is torn apart or it looks like someone's broken in? Well, the answer here is run out of it. But I think there really was no way for these children to protect themselves. Oh, absolutely not. And like, if they saw they're worried about their mom, like, I don't think any kid would really run out like they'd want to find their mom. So it makes total sense. When you think about how you respond in a tragedy,
00:42:56
Speaker
Um, or not even a tragedy when something is just unexpected. You might think that you're going to do well. I've always known myself to be someone who responds well in, um, or keeps a cool head in an unforeseen circumstances. There's a couple of stories I can bring up and like, there's stories that my friends bring up all the time. Like, um, one New Year's, we actually nearly burnt my friend's house now.
00:43:19
Speaker
but Some stuff caught fire and I was the one, uh, four of us who immediately got up and put the fire out and didn't freak out. So like I was out of myself as a really, like, I know how to respond in a bad situation, but the other day something happened that proved to me that maybe I should be a little bit more critical with my thinking skills. Um, um, that should be a tangent Tuesday. We do cause I've talked about how we should do one about time. So you've almost died, but times that you would think that you would know better. Mm-hmm.
00:43:48
Speaker
This is a little bit heavy for this because I don't think the children did anything wrong. I know Sierra doesn't think the children did. Yeah, no, absolutely not. It's just, it made me think about how I've never planned for something like that or talked to like my younger siblings. What would you do? And I'm sure like, if, if you walked in to your home and there was blood on the ground, I wouldn't think some, well, maybe I would, I don't know, but like, I don't think I would think, oh, someone's come and hurt somebody. I would think my, my mom's hurt. Yeah. Like she fell.
00:44:14
Speaker
Or yeah cut herself or something like that like something bad has happened But I don't think we'd jump to someone who's broken into my house to kill and dismember my parent, you know, like yeah Anyway Crazy Well, I'm glad that Sarah at least survived and it's just such a tragedy for the family and for her friend as well who was there with them so mm-hmm This wrong place wrong time. Yeah but That is our case for this week, the case of the leaf killer. I actually kept a case under 50 minutes for once. Look at me go. So proud. Well done.
00:44:53
Speaker
um So this is the part where we talk about something pleasant from the week. Here we exit the murder highway. Something that I say because I think I'm funny. I think you're funny too.
00:45:08
Speaker
Aww. Um, so in real time, it's December 1st today. Happy first day of December. Um, we just had Thanksgiving, which we both survived. Yes, it was very fun. Yes. Uh, no one, I don't think we had any like knockdown drag out fights, but there were a couple of moments where I was like, I don't know if I choose to look into that just a little bit further. We could, we could have ourselves a rager, but, um, but yeah, so let's see what's been good that's happened in your week Sierra.
00:45:38
Speaker
ah ah Well, let's see. I am going to go ahead and mention Thanksgiving because we had all our family there, like the extended family. We have one set that was in Arizona that couldn't make it up, but it was just a really good time. It was a fun time together. It's just so cool seeing all of the cousins growing up because our extended family on my mom's side is very, very close. We always try to do holidays together. And I'm just realizing like some of them are almost in college.
00:46:07
Speaker
And it's so crazy. And like our tradition is after Thanksgiving, the big noon meal and dessert, we play some games and then we decorate Grammy's house for Christmas. And it was just so crazy watching all the cousins be so helpful. Not that they're like, they were not helpful before, but I'm just noticing how much they have grown up and mature and they're just so helpful. And I was like, wow, like you're really becoming your own person and you're a joy to be around as well, which is great. So it was just, it was cool to see that.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's always cool when your family members start being like real people. we don't see that often My youngest sister, is she's 13, but she's suddenly so funny. Like dangerously funny.
00:46:52
Speaker
and kind of like rude to me, but not always, but it's it's it's it's it's cool to see them grow up and be like, oh my gosh, you have a personality. I love that. Stop stop being mean to me because I'm old. That tends to be the big town, but that's cool. It's a family. It was good. It was my first Thanksgiving at home in like seven years, so it was really nice. Wow. Yeah. I'm trying to think of something that's not just piggybacking off of yours.
00:47:21
Speaker
um I didn't go home for Thanksgiving. I stayed for what was supposed to be a friendsgiving, but then ah some some family showed up from the hosting family, but that was fine. because you know You know the friends that are your family. That's what it was for me. Sierra is a friend that is my family and so the the friend that I had Thanksgiving with. So it's pretty nice. Let's see. I am going to, I think that happened, well, it's pretty bad that happened in my week with somebody back into the bumper of my car and dented in the back.
00:47:52
Speaker
panel, but the good thing was that it was just the plastic part, so I didn't have to worry about the car. um But that's kind of been like how my week has gone where it's like, oh, that's not great, but it's also not terrible. um say yeah I'm it's been good in my week. um Just hanging out with my my friends and, you know,
00:48:13
Speaker
I have two sisters who live local, but they went home for Thanksgiving and I didn't get to go this year, which is having good people around you who, you know, you love them and you know that they love you and just everything's so comfortable. So being able to have that comfortable holiday. And then for specifics, I'm going to say I sent you this picture earlier of our friend's baby. Yes. Chilling on my lap. She's nearly 10 months old. So she's at that age where she's like,
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah, I'm she's not walking or crawling or anything yet, but she likes to stand she likes to be active. um But Thanksgiving towards the end of the night when she's getting a little sleepy, she came and sat with me and like, sat on my lap and just kind of curled in it was just a quiet moment of contemplation where you look around all these people and you see all the people that you care about and you're just like,
00:48:56
Speaker
How did we get here? That is just a good way to end Thanksgiving. um But she was having a moment where she was willing to be a little bit snuggly, and Auntie Kaylee got to steal all the little baby snuggles. So ah that was a very, very, yes. So it's been a good week to look around, see the people you love, and be like, oh, this is great.
00:49:16
Speaker
Anyway, so I said I wasn't going to piggyback off of you. Talked about my car being dented and then piggybacked off of you anyway. So well that's fine. That was the big thing this week was Thanksgiving. so Um, yeah, so it's been pretty good. My dog got to eat cheese for Thanksgiving. I'm going to ask your opinion on this because apparently I, I can't physically not let an episode that I have to edit be less than an hour long as we stated before. And as I've stated, we've stated before, I don't, I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat meat.
00:49:46
Speaker
How rude do you think it would have been to request from Thanksgiving dinner that they send me home with a little bit of the ham and a little bit of the turkey that i could so I could give it to my dog? As long as it's a little bit, I don't think that's bad. Because I didn't. Because I didn't want to be like, you did such a great job smoking this turkey and ham, and I'm not going to eat it. What could I have someone to get to my dog? Just felt a little rude.
00:50:11
Speaker
I don't think I mean as long as they have enough for leftovers to go around I don't see the problem in asking for it And I know especially because I know the friends well there are our mutual friends that you were with like I know they wouldn't care so Hmm, I feel like perhaps they had one let t didn't Oh, wait, oh, I know which one you're talking about. Okay, perhaps I would have been roasted a little bit, but you know what? I'm sure their dog got some turkey. Oh, yeah, definitely But I was like, come on Tillamicus, but no, it's not like it's got Thanksgiving cheese That's still good. He liked it.
00:50:45
Speaker
so
00:50:48
Speaker
yeah so Also, Thanksgiving when you're a vegetarian is such a strange experience because people look at you like you're about to like start lecturing them on the cruelty of killing of killing turkeys. when really all you have to do is ask your friend's brother and I'm like, hey, just to make sure you didn't put weird chicken stock in anything. Cause last year that happened and I temporarily died. Like, uh, well yeah. So that's our case this week. That's my ramble that I'm gonna cut all that out. Cause like I can and I sound stupid. So I will. So that wraps up our case this week. Um, next week, Sierra will be telling us about the Donner party. This is a bit of an oldie pulling back from history. history
00:51:26
Speaker
which means that we'll probably be a little bit less serious. um We gotta stop talking about cannibalism and dismemberment cases. I know we've wait we went on this like little roll with unsolved cases and now we're back on the cannibalism. So I don't know. we But really, there are no wholesome topics when you're talking about murder, so. This is true. And then, as an aside, we're putting out Leaf Killer. it should Today is Sunday. Spoiler alert. If it comes out, it is December 1st. And if I edited this in time and got it up on Sunday, great. When I probably don't. And it's Monday. which is to I think I am.
00:52:02
Speaker
going to drop a tangent Tuesday this week as well. o Oh, was that our kind of Halloween one? Our late Halloween episode. ah We talked about in this tangent, ghosts and general spookery. So be ready for that.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah, we got the Donner party, we got ghosts? question mark and Other things. And then I think the next week we have another older case. We're doing a couple of older cases, then we'll get back to ones that happened in the past 50 years. so Yeah. Sorry, a cop just pulled up to my driveway.
00:52:44
Speaker
ah
00:52:48
Speaker
Okay, he's passed my driveway and now seems to be going down towards the neighbors. Make sure your door is locked. It's a no knock warrant.
00:53:01
Speaker
I don't know what they get me for. um It's because you were buying that bleach and those knives from Walmart, Kaylee. They're onto to you. You and your red popsicles. That was like three years ago, so I'd be really confused and impressed. They only just now gained access to the footage. like If you can tell me how much I've spent at Walmart in the past three years, that'd be great because I need to know how to do better.
00:53:26
Speaker
But yeah, so thanks for joining us this week. We'll see you next week, hopefully. yeah no we'll see you We'll see you next episode. Until then, be aware. Take care. And we'll see you then. Bye. Bye.