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The Murder of Kitty Genovese
22 Plays18 days ago
In the early morning of March 13, 1964, Kitty Genovese was attacked and stabbed to death while she was walking home from work.
The brutality of the murder was made more sensational by reports that thirty eight people stood at their windows and watched while she was murdered. Reportedly, out of these thirty eight people, no one attempted to help or call the police. Was this a case of the worst of human apathy? Or did bad reportage lead to moralistic outrage surrounding an already tragic case? Join us this week as we delve into the bystander effect and the death of Kitty Genovese.
Sources:
https://www.history.com/topics/crime/kitty-genovese
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/bystander-effect
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/10/a-call-for-help
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/nyregion/sophia-farrar-dead.html
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Transcript
Introduction and Case Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, I'm Kaylee. And I'm Sierra. And this is True Crime and Punishment. Today, Kaylee will be walking us through the case of Kitty Genovese. This case has actually been made famous um based on one of our niche interests, which is its journalism, but specifically how journalistic reporting led us to something known as the bystander effect, which, Sierra, I'm sure you're familiar with that term.
00:00:22
Speaker
I am. Yes, we learned about it in lifeguarding, actually, before I got to journalism. Yeah. I'm also sure you're familiar with this term because we recorded this episode once and it was audio poison. So we are doing it again.
00:00:36
Speaker
Woo! Second time's the charm. That's what I always say.
The Attack on Kitty Genovese
00:00:40
Speaker
So I'll ask you this later when we get down into what bystander effect is, but we're going to start our case on March 13th, 1964.
00:00:49
Speaker
On this night, a 28-year-old bar manager named Catherine Susie Genovese, known as Kitty to friends and family, was walking home from work around 2.30 in the morning. This was not unusual for Genovese to keep kind of late hours. Again, she was a bar manager, so that kind of lends itself to being out later at night.
00:01:09
Speaker
When she was walking home this morning, a man approached her with a knife. ah Kitty ran away from him. She ran towards her apartment door. She was really close to home. But the man chased after her, and when he reached her, he began to stab her repeatedly while Kitty screamed.
00:01:24
Speaker
Robert Moser, a neighbor of Kitty's, heard the screaming and yelled out of his window, "'Leave that girl alone!' This scared the man who then fled the scene. Kitty, who was seriously injured, she'd been stabbed multiple times at this point, dragged herself to the back of her apartment building.
00:01:40
Speaker
So this means she was out of view of witnesses. It said she was on like a stoop and she laid there. People reported that she was calling for help, but no one went to assist her and she was too weak to get herself into the building.
00:01:53
Speaker
Now, unfortunately, 10 minutes later, her attacker returned. I forgot this part. It's been so long since we've talked about this story. Oh, man. So he came back and he began to stab her again.
00:02:07
Speaker
He attacked her. He assaulted her and stole her money. Later, a neighbor by the name of Sophia Farrar found her in the back of the apartment complex and she screamed for someone to call an ambulance.
00:02:19
Speaker
Kitty was still alive when Farrar found her. However, she would sadly pass away in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Oh, my goodness. Now, at 4 a.m., m this is about an hour and a half after she initially started walking home was attacked, police knocked on Genovese's apartment door.
00:02:36
Speaker
Marianne Zailanco, Kitty's girlfriend, opened the door and was informed by police that Kitty had been stabbed to death. Hmm. So this was in the 60s, and I'm not going to say that homosexuality wasn't a thing. We all know that's not true.
00:02:52
Speaker
It definitely wasn't an accepted thing. So this led to some unfortunate questioning by police. So at 7 a.m., m Detective Mitchell Sang showed up to question Marianne. This is three hours after she's been informed that her girlfriend was murdered.
00:03:06
Speaker
Marianne had been drinking, and she was being kept company by a man named Carl Ross. Was he a neighbor or just a friend? I believe he was a friend slash neighbor. Okay.
00:03:18
Speaker
I don't know if he lived in that building or the building next to it based on what I remember. Okay.
00:03:24
Speaker
Apparently, Detective Sang found Ross to be intrusive to the questioning and he eventually arrested him for um disorderly conduct. Oh. So. And he wasn't being questioned. He was just there.
00:03:38
Speaker
So, after this arrest, homicide detectives John Carroll and Jerry Burns arrive to question Marianne. Unfortunately, and disgustingly, they turn their attention to Kitty and Marianne's relationship for six hours.
00:03:52
Speaker
Six hours? That does not pertain to the case! Yep. Again, they were two young women and they were in a relationship. Marianne herself said later in interviews that they weren't necessarily out, but they did meet at a gay bar. um They were sort of... she ah Quote, she said, they were sort of we were sort of closeted.
00:04:14
Speaker
So, it was kind it was I guess an open secret, but... Either way, it wasn't relevant to the case. um Did they think that Marianne had done it?
00:04:26
Speaker
That's not really clear. they um They did consider her a suspect. Okay. Which is normal for the people you're living with.
Winston Mosley's Arrest and Confession
00:04:34
Speaker
Yes. And to question them about their relationship, is it turbulent? is it Has there been violence in the past? Did you guys argue a lot?
00:04:42
Speaker
That makes sense. But the questions delved into further personal matters about their intimate life and things of that nature, which is... inappropriate and definitely shouldn't take six hours yeah i'm just wondering if they got some weird there were some weird guys that got that yeah and again it was like oh it was it was 1964 so that probably wasn't usual to find a um a lesbian couple And a lot of people at that time, I would have i would assume, think that that's a perversion yeah would treat it as such.
00:05:19
Speaker
um But it's just, I guess by the modern view, it's very kind of cringy. But even by like a logical view, it's like alternate lifestyle doesn't automatically mean you're a murderer. So, ugh.
00:05:35
Speaker
So in the beginning, they did think that Marianne was a suspect. However, this suspicion would not last long. Later, the same week that Genovese was murdered, police would respond to a suspected robbery.
00:05:49
Speaker
They found a TV in the trunk of a 29-year-old Winston Mosley. Mosley drove a white Chevrolet Corvair. This struck a chord with ah with ah one detective.
00:06:00
Speaker
ah my word.
00:06:04
Speaker
It's been so long since I've done the research for this case. I'm reading off of an old file. And I do not have pronunciation guidance here. tar Tartaglia?
00:06:18
Speaker
Tartaglia? Officer T. think it's Tartaglia. That sounds good. um Detective T. Please af excuse any mispronunciations.
00:06:32
Speaker
You can find videos for these things and you still can't figure out how to pronounce them. I watched a couple videos right before we started recording to try and figure out how to pronounce Marianne's last name. and i ah They didn't say it.
00:06:43
Speaker
so um if i If I do find out how pronounce these correctly, I'll add a correct pronunciation in the beginning or something. Like a cast of characters. Yes.
00:06:55
Speaker
But Detective Tartaglia... Remembered witnesses to Kitty's murder saw a white Corvair in the area. Detective T called Carol and Sang. The detectives who, well, Carol and Burns questioned Mary Ann.
00:07:11
Speaker
Sang arrived to question him, but then he arrested Carl Ross and kind of left. um But they're involved in this case. Um... When he called them, they noticed that there were scabs on Mosley's hands that would be in line with someone who was injured during a brutal attack.
00:07:27
Speaker
They would accuse Mosley of murdering Kitty. Mosley then told detectives that he had, in fact, murdered Kitty, and he revealed information that only the murderer would know. Wow.
00:07:39
Speaker
Very cut and dry. Yes. He told police that he'd seen Kitty at a traffic light while sitting in his car. He followed her home with the intention of attacking and raping her.
00:07:51
Speaker
He also revealed that he had been trolling around Queens to find a victim. So that night he had been out with the intention of attacking somebody. um He actually would confess to multiple other rapes and two other murders.
00:08:06
Speaker
The murders of Annie Mae Johnson and Barbara Kralik. Oh, wow. Did they find evidence to support his claim? um they For Kitty's murder, yes. He had information that only the murderer would have known.
00:08:20
Speaker
He made a full confession. the wounds matched up with um the attack that Kitty suffered. And then witnesses put his car in the area. So I didn't look into the murders of Annie Mae Johnson and Barbara Kralik. I probably should.
00:08:37
Speaker
mean, we can do a a shorter follow-up episode. Yeah. Because seems interesting just to confess to two other murders. And it was 2.30 in the morning, but Mosley did this brazenly. He did this out in the open and he'd been scared off by someone literally looking out their window and yelling, hey, leave that girl alone.
00:08:55
Speaker
And I watched a video where reportedly somebody asked Mosley, like a detective asked Mosley, why was he so confident in attacking a woman in public like that?
00:09:06
Speaker
And he said reportedly said, I knew they'd never do anything people never do. Oh, wow. Mosley was sentenced to death on June 15th, 1964.
00:09:18
Speaker
the center ah This sentence was later reduced to a life sentence in 1967, so he was on death row for three years.
00:09:27
Speaker
Mosley was married with three children and had no prior record. He died in jail on March 28th, 2016, at 81 years at twenty sixteen at eighty one years old Wow.
00:09:39
Speaker
So it's a pretty cut and dry case by way of investigation. There was no lengthy questioning or anything like that. They found him a week later. because he was arrested for something else and he confessed.
Media Influence and Bystander Effect
00:09:52
Speaker
So this was a touchy case for multiple reasons. um This was in the 60s and Mosley was a black man who had murdered a white woman. And then you have Kenny Genovese herself living a quote unquote alternate lifestyle as a somewhat out lesbian woman.
00:10:09
Speaker
So there was a lot a lot of reason for this case to kind of pick up media traction. But one of the main things that came out of this case, one of the most notable, is the birth of the bystander effect, which is also known as Genovese syndrome.
00:10:25
Speaker
So based on your understanding in your lifeguard training, what do you understand the bystander effect to be? Bystander effect is usually where people, they see something bad happening and like they can't look away, but nobody is inspired for action.
00:10:39
Speaker
In my lifeguarding training, they told us, you know as you're responding to somebody, you need to look at the people around you, point to one of them and say, you, go call 911. Because if you just say, somebody do this, nobody's going to do it because your brain, it's processing so much stuff. And sometimes people are scared. Like I'm sure in the case of Kitty Genovese, if there's an attack going on,
00:10:59
Speaker
No one wants to go intervene in that. But if you look at someone and you place that responsibility on them, it helps as kind of a call to very specific action for that specific person. So if you just say general, if you expect the general goodwill of people to act in your favor, that's not always going to happen.
00:11:15
Speaker
And that's what we understand the bystander effect to be, where basically people standing around aren't going to think to act necessarily because the assumption is someone else is acting. Yeah.
00:11:27
Speaker
and So... They say in a case of emergency, you should point it, like like you said, point at someone directly and say, you call 911 you do this because then that person will act appropriately. Yeah. And it's not that people are ill-intentioned. It's often it's shock or just yeah like you said, they're thinking, oh, someone else is going to do that, you know.
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I think specific some specific people I think are more trained to act in situations like that. um One thing I noticed is I'm less likely to be a passive bystander after having worked in child care.
00:12:00
Speaker
ah so if something happens i usually and more now maybe because i'm older um more actively like is there something i can do what needs to be done or to start giving orders because i've been in charge of a situation like that but still it's very easy to kind of hesitate because you don't want to overstep or you don't want to make the wrong move especially in an urgency ah hu yeah anyway well well maybe we'll talk about this at the end never mind keep going but Well, I was going to say, I recently was taking a class where they talked about self-defense and specifically in the case of concealed carrying, but just self-defense in general. And the man running the class said, you really need to know
00:12:37
Speaker
The legal consequences of acting. He said, I will never be using my weapon to protect somebody else. He said, it's only to protect me because there are so many times when people have stepped in to help others and then they have faced legal action because they were just trying to help other people, which I don't know that I would take it to his level of where I will never like go out of my way to protect someone else.
00:12:58
Speaker
But I can see what he's saying. there There can be a lot of danger in acting in favor of someone else, especially when you don't have all the information about what's happening. you're not in position of authority over the situation. Yeah, the hesitancy makes sense.
00:13:12
Speaker
No judgment for the hesitancy at all, because that's, I think, that a normal reaction. Anyway, back to Genovese. New York Times editor A.M. Rosenthal sent a report that sent reporter New York Times editor A.M. m Rosenthal sent reporter Martin Gansberg to look into the story from the angle that no one had called the police.
00:13:35
Speaker
That's what was widely reported about the Kenny Genevieve case, was that people heard her screaming for help, but no one called the police. And when you know, because remember, they said Kenny Genevieve was outside calling for help for quite a while and no one came to her aid.
00:13:54
Speaker
Gansberg reported that 38 people, 38 neighbors, 38 bystanders heard the near 30 minute ordeal that Kitty suffered and yet no one called the police.
00:14:05
Speaker
thirty eight 38 did he say that is because that was how many neighbors she had that was how many people he asked directly oh wow he went around and that was the number that police gave him that's what he heard about on the on the beat that's what he heard that's what he deducted did you that's what he deduced from his journalistic investigation oh my goodness we'll get into that in a second Psychology Today defines the bystander effect as the bystander effect. It says directly, the bystander effect occurs when the presence of others discourages an individual from intervening in an emergency situation against a bully during an assault or another crime.
00:14:46
Speaker
The greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is for any one of them to provide help to a person in distress. People are more likely to take action in a crisis when there are fewer or no other witnesses present.
00:14:58
Speaker
Which makes sense because if you're the only one who can act, you're going to feel more compelled to act. Exactly. And again, and it's not done maliciously. It's people don't tend to think they're superheroes and should intervene.
00:15:13
Speaker
um But Kenny Janavis' case was infamous because it was reported widely that people, multiple people heard her being attacked and no one called the police because it was assumed that someone else would call the police. That's what was said.
00:15:26
Speaker
Okay. um So, let's see. Now, this is kind of an interesting case. History Today said that psychologist Bib... Oh, my word.
00:15:42
Speaker
Bib Latane... That's definitely wrong. Latane is how it's spelled. And John Darley made their careers studying the bystander effect and have shown in clinical experiments that witnesses are less likely to help a crime victim if there are other witnesses.
00:16:00
Speaker
The more witnesses, the less likely any one person will intervene. The bystander effect was used by the press as a parable of morley bank of ah used as a parable of a morally bankrupt modern society losing its compassion for others, particularly in cities.
00:16:14
Speaker
End quote.
00:16:18
Speaker
Interesting take. yeah The King Genevieve's case wasn't just like the bystander effect. They were assigning morality to this phenomenon. That if we were a less morally bankrupt society, that this wouldn't have happened.
00:16:30
Speaker
However, following the case, the New York Times published several articles saying that 38 people heard the commotion and none of them called the police. Several years later, it was reinvestigated by journalist Jim Reisenberger, who debunked the 1964 claims.
00:16:47
Speaker
He found that only two people could be reported as having ignored the murder. He said intoxicated that night. Ross heard noises and after deliberation, cracked open his door to investigate.
00:17:00
Speaker
He saw Genevieve slaying on the ground, still alive and attempting to speak and mostly stabbing her. He shut the door and called a friend to ask what to do. The friend said not to get involved.
00:17:12
Speaker
Ross eventually climbed out of his window and went to a neighbor's apartment. He called the police after hearing Sophie Farrar call for someone to do so. Ross's explanation, I didn't want to get involved, became the famous rejoinder of the bystander effect.
00:17:26
Speaker
That's a quote from history.com. Interesting. Now, you remember Ross? His last name Ross, ring any bells? Yes, he was the one that was sitting with um Marianne.
00:17:40
Speaker
Marianne, sorry. he ah One and the same. So he felt guilty and went back with Marianne. Most likely. yeah sorry. that was That was my speculation.
00:17:54
Speaker
um Here is another, here's a quote from the New Yorker. It's a little bit long, but I think it's worth including. This is what was published about Cangida Vise's murder. For more than half an hour, 38 respectable law-abiding citizens in Queens watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Kew Gardens.
00:18:14
Speaker
Not one person telephoned the police during the assault. One witness called after the woman was dead, which... Which wasn't true. Later that year, Rosenthal, the publisher, published a very short instant book, the only book he ever wrote on his own called 38 Witnesses, The Kitty Genovese Case, which used portentous outrage language to enshrine the apathy narrative.
00:18:39
Speaker
He urged readers to, quote, recognize that the bell tolls even on each man's individual island to recognize that every man must fear the witness in himself who whispers to close the window. By the 80s, a widely used college psychology textbook drew this scenario from the Times account.
00:18:57
Speaker
Quote, How crazy!
00:19:05
Speaker
of terror and remained at their windows in fascination for the thirty minutes it took her to her assailant to complete his grizzly deed during which time he returned for three separate attacks How could he know that?
00:19:18
Speaker
How could he know they all stood at their windows, that all 38 of them had the right angle to stand up their windows and see that? And this is a widely used ah psychology textbook based on this reportage.
00:19:33
Speaker
Now.
00:19:36
Speaker
Let's get into some inaccuracies about the bystander effect. based about the bytan effect Let's get into some inaccuracies about this case. There were only two attacks, not three. Mosley left once and returned.
00:19:47
Speaker
A few people saw the first attack and not the second, and definitely not a third. Very few people said they saw the second attack.
00:19:57
Speaker
The second person who saw something was a neighbor in an apartment building across the street, a man by the name of Joseph Fink. He said he saw the first attack and decided to take a nap after Mosley had fled.
00:20:10
Speaker
carl ross the friend he drank heard the first attack did nothing he heard the second attack cracked his door and saw mosley stabbing kitty genovese that's when he closed the door and called his friend who told him not to get involved he then went across the street um and left via the window and walked across the roof so he didn't even go out into the street he went through a window across a roof um And another thing that I think is interesting that we should note, this case, it brought us to the bystander effect, which is a true effect. It's just not quite the case in this case where people did call the police.
00:20:47
Speaker
There were not 38 people who witnessed this case or witnessed this assault and ignored it. There were people who ignored it. Make note, like Fink and Ross, they both ignored it.
Impact on Emergency Response Systems
00:20:58
Speaker
But most people didn't. The man who called out his window... thought the man had ran off and was gone. Maybe he didn't know she was being stabbed and thought everything was fine.
00:21:10
Speaker
But there were not 38 people, as you said, who were just guwking walkingking gawking out their windows watching this woman be attacked. It was bad journalism that gave us the concept of the bystander effect.
00:21:23
Speaker
Another interesting case, even if it did give us the bystander effect, even if this wasn't a true case. um Well... wasn't really a true case the bystander effect because these people didn't really know if there were a ton of other people watching.
00:21:36
Speaker
Right. um But it pushed the concept of 911 in the United States, a universal phone number to call for help, to be a thing.
00:21:49
Speaker
um To quote the New Yorker, in 1964, the most reliable way to call the police in New York was to use the specific telephone number of each precinct and caller response wasn't always a high priority.
00:22:02
Speaker
Well, I could see then why people would be even less likely to call the police. You have to know the exact number, they might not even answer you. have to get out your phone book, you have to call the cops, and then... I think a lot of more people reported hearing her screaming, but it's also New York at 2 a.m.
00:22:19
Speaker
Right. So it could be a case of callousness to that kind of thing happening. I don't think there were truly 38 people who thought this woman was being stabbed and attacked and murdered and just ignored it all.
00:22:30
Speaker
So, those two psychologists, Bibb and Tain and John Darley, they're the ones who research the bystander effect. So, it's not really relevant in Kitty's case, but the theory has held up to further testing.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah, it is a real thing. But yeah, i agree with you. This wasn't a good example of it. Yes, I didn't get a ton into Kitty Genovese's backstory um about her life.
00:22:55
Speaker
and It's relevant to her as a person. It wasn't relevant to the case um or into her personal life with Mary Ann that also felt irrelevant to the case considering she wasn't the murderer.
00:23:07
Speaker
So yeah that is the story of Kitty Genovese and the bystander effect. But it's always crazy when you can find the cases that made things where terrible things had to happen for a good thing to happen, like 911.
00:23:19
Speaker
and her I don't think I would have ever thought about what would we do if we didn't have that number ingrained in our heads. I feel like everyone everyone knows you called 911 an emergency. You're told that as a child.
00:23:30
Speaker
It's kind of like the Amber Alert system. You wouldn't think about, well, why was that a thing? Then you can think of the case that led to the Amber Alert.
00:23:43
Speaker
Maybe we should cover that one soon. Yeah, that was the Jacob Wetterling case. hu um he was kidnapped and murdered and then they didn't find his body for many years.
Journalistic Responsibility
00:23:56
Speaker
But people saw him be kidnapped and there wasn't a way to mass alert that a child had been taken so the jacob wetterling case it's a very very it's very sad case to any case about a child i think has that extra level of sadness to it um but yeah definitely it's one of the crucial it's a crucial case in why we got the amber alert so that would look worth looking into yeah
00:24:27
Speaker
but any thoughts Oh, do I have thoughts? Of course I do. um Let's see. i want to i mean I'm trying to figure out the order of my thoughts. It is good. like Like you said, we did get good things from the case. And the bystander effect, like we've talked about, is a real thing.
00:24:43
Speaker
And even, I will say this, the fact that there were at least two men who kind of knew what was happening and didn't bother to intervene or call the police right away, that is discouraging.
00:24:55
Speaker
yeah And there is definitely this fact that it can be easy for us. And even I think the idea of being in cities and being desensitized to violence, I think that is a real thing. And it's something to keep in mind. Like I know for me personally, I'm the type of person where I tend to get nervous. So I could see myself holding back from helping someone just because I'm scared.
00:25:12
Speaker
So that definitely gives food for thought. But i will also say it really, really, really annoys me when journalists try to be pastors and And they take this story where it's not even like they don't have all the information. a lot of the information is incorrect.
00:25:30
Speaker
And they try to use it to moralize. And like they're doing more than just reporting facts. I believe that's the job of a journalist. You're just supposed to report facts. But instead they're trying to use that information to bri cause society to do something.
00:25:46
Speaker
And the fact that, what was it, Rosenthal? He capitalized even more off this case and his inaccurate information because he wrote that little book. Like, that just drives me crazy. Yeah, we've said before, emotions have no place in journalism.
00:26:00
Speaker
It's something that if you are an overly emotional person, you you should be discouraged not to take up a journalistic mantle. It's... and You said before, news should be boring.
00:26:12
Speaker
The sensational, while it should be told, needs to be told responsibly. And it's it it is discouraging to think how bad reportage and inaccurate and moral um outcry has kind of polluted that.
00:26:33
Speaker
But at the same time, it's it's easy to think how how upsetting would be to think 38 people Right. And if that were a fact, that would be something to report.
00:26:45
Speaker
Mm hmm. But it would need to be a fact. Yes. And we've talked about, I believe you've referred to it as drippy writing. It has its place even in journalistic writing. Like a um profile piece should have the right amount of emotion behind it.
00:27:01
Speaker
In some cases, obituaries, especially like celebrity obituaries that are very long, that has some place for emotion. um But usually when you're putting emotion into a piece, you almost want it to be a quote.
00:27:14
Speaker
You don't want it to come from your own hand. so That's my judgmental journalism thought of the week.
Moral Dilemmas in Helping Others
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:25
Speaker
Did um Marianne ever say anything about the journalism and how they covered it? um Not that I saw. I know she's been interviewed. She passed away I don't know exactly when she passed away.
00:27:40
Speaker
see. She passed at 86. No, 85. misread that. no eighty five i misread that Of course, the New Yorker wants me to pay for that article.
00:27:54
Speaker
Someone copied the entire the entire article into Reddit. God bless you. it looks like she passed away in 2024. Or, yeah.
00:28:08
Speaker
She didn't talk about the journalism, from what I've seen. She did talk about... In 2004, she said she once talked with a man who believed she believed to the last person other than the killer to have contact with Kitty Genovese.
00:28:22
Speaker
She cried to him and he wouldn't open his door. Zelenko said, I knew he was afraid of everything, even to leave his house, but that doesn't excuse him. That's what I'm saying. Maybe he will need to open doors when someone reaches out for help. Open a door, you take a chance.
00:28:35
Speaker
She said after the murder, she resolved not to turn her back when she saw someone in distress. She told the Rutland Herald of having driven, that was the newspaper who was interviewing her, home from work one day when she saw a man and a woman arguing by the side of the road. He hit her.
00:28:52
Speaker
Miss Solonko pulled her car over, stepped out, and asked the woman if she needed any help. She responded by running to her car. I drove her home, but I never saw her again. Miss Solonko said, I could have just driven by that night, but I said, I'll take a chance.
00:29:05
Speaker
That's beautiful. you That's very beautiful. And again, it's one of those things where... oh sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. Tragic story, but at least something good did come out of it.
00:29:17
Speaker
Right. And Marianne's correct. That is something... Maybe you take a chance to open your door. um and off Obviously, with caution. Right. That's just the cruddy part about being a human being.
00:29:29
Speaker
is You would want to think that if you saw someone or heard someone at your door begging for help, you'd open it. But how many times have you heard horror stories of ah when I was a teenager, I remember it being a story that it was happening in our neighborhood. And I'm not sure about the the truth of it, but it was a warning that a lot of people got in our neighborhood that there was someone going around our neighborhood playing ah sounds of a baby or child crying outside of like back doors at people's houses.
00:30:01
Speaker
And because they knew women would be empathetic and open doors. And then yeah and then whenever somebody would open the door, they would break in and attack people or rob them.
00:30:15
Speaker
um Age-old tale leaving a baby carrier on the side of the road with a child in it or what looks like a child's pullover so you can carjack them. yeah So obviously with caution, but... And you have to think about, like, I know at the class that I went to, the defense class, he mentioned, the teacher mentioned, like, therere his co-teacher was a lady and, you know, she has...
00:30:38
Speaker
kids and grandkids that she has to think about, like who's going to take care of them if something happens to her. you do have to think about the people in your life that are depending on you. You need to make wise decisions because you have to go home to your loved ones as well. Yeah.
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah. Well, because even if you, but I think the important thing to remember is even if you can't open the door, like that is a risk you cannot take. Call the cops. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because I can think of a couple different murder cases where people escaped and captivity or ran away from a murderer there was a ah murderer in australia we'll have to do an episode on him but um one of his victims escaped him and then he was standing the the victim was standing in the middle of the road waving down a car and i believe it was a mother with her children in the car stopped and she said i think am i gonna let this this bloody man get in my car
00:31:33
Speaker
Or am I going to protect my kids? And she she did let him in and he was a victim. But had she not, that man been killed. Because they they were this this is one specific highway.
00:31:44
Speaker
Or a woman who escaped. you ever heard the Toy Box Killers? No, I have not. I believe it's this case. That one's a very disturbing case. um
00:31:56
Speaker
Toy Box Killer. It's one man and then his wife who kind of helped. how Or girlfriend. I can't remember. But um someone got away from them and she was running down the street knocking on doors and she was, I think, naked and bleeding and some people wouldn't let let her in.
00:32:17
Speaker
um Which you just kind of think, what would you do if a woman showed up screaming and bloody and naked at your door? Yeah. yeah Or you want to say, oh yeah, I'd let her in, but it's also kind of like, what if...
00:32:30
Speaker
What if? She's the murderer. So it's something difficult. But definitely ah an interesting psychological concept, I think. Yeah.
00:32:42
Speaker
For sure.
Final Thoughts and Personal Reflections
00:32:44
Speaker
I think that wraps up our ah thoughts on the case unless you had anything you wanted to get into. Mine, I was just going to talk a little bit more about journalists who try to use news to affect a change in society or to talk about kind of their personal hobby horse or opinion.
00:32:59
Speaker
But that might be a Tangent Tuesday. That be a very interesting tangent Tuesday because you know I have a lot of feelings about journalism. We can do an episode journalistic morality. Yeah.
00:33:11
Speaker
That'd be fun. So, now let's exit the murder highway. they say, today it is 2025. Well, today. It's not New Year's. We're officially 2025.
00:33:24
Speaker
just got back home yesterday and or especiallyshley in twenty twenty five i just got back home yesterday And my plane did not fall out of the sky this year. Yay! Which was great.
00:33:35
Speaker
But
00:33:39
Speaker
but yeah, I had a really good Christmas season this year
00:33:46
Speaker
My family always travels up to my mom's family. Oh, I wanted to tell you. My my dad listened to our podcast. He listens to our podcast. Hi, Dad. um And he wanted me to He said I could tell Sierra as well.
00:34:02
Speaker
To think about if we're making an episode about someone who is still alive, that maybe we shouldn't call them weird leaf perverts, especially when they're in prison in Toledo and I'm going to Detroit for Christmas.
00:34:20
Speaker
That's a good thought. That's a very good thought.
00:34:24
Speaker
So he's like, maybe think about what you're saying so people don't come after you. And i I did tell him that I would just like throw a potted plant at him and escape him if I needed to.
00:34:36
Speaker
But he was not impressed by that. so
00:34:40
Speaker
that's That is good food for thought. I mean, I'm a little less concerned going to out of the country, but you should be cautious. So we'll just we'll be careful with what we say. Okay, well. still think he's a leaf pervert but whatever hey yeah maybe maybe think about what we're saying when the the killer is still alive don't worry dad this week that he passed away in 2018 so we're good i also don't think i said anything insulting about him no you didn't anyway we don't usually so he was not usually one other case to pop off at the mouth about the that um
00:35:18
Speaker
But yeah, so i' going to narrow it down to one specific... Pleasant thing that's happened since our last episode. ah My family, when we celebrated Christmas this year, I wrote everyone a little note to go with their gifts.
00:35:32
Speaker
And I i thought i was going to have the most sentimental gift this year. I bought my sister a pair of Converse with stars on them. And then I put a quote on the back. um It's like sick eater at Astra. And it's like popular translation is something along thus one journeys to the stars.
00:35:51
Speaker
because my sister really loves the movie a knight's tale and part of that is change your stars follow your feet so shoes stars that's one journey um and she's going places in life she's she's dedicated and she's smart so i'm like haha i win most sentimental gift sentimental note boom no she crushed me she wrote me a letter she got me a themed gift um i've had something of a difficult year and she she wrote me a very sweet letter about it and and I'm sitting there on Christmas crying, thinking, crap, she won.
00:36:24
Speaker
so i bet she loves the shoes, though. she She got me um one of many things. Wow. This year was they have a Harper... but It's Harper Publishing, so but it's Harper Teen.
00:36:37
Speaker
So they're ah company where they specifically do HarperCollins Teen books. It's copies of classics with more teen, angsty-appropriate covers.
00:36:48
Speaker
And so it's like black, and it's got a rose on it, and it's a copy of Jane Eyre, which I collect copies of Jane Eyre. Cute. So it was very cute, and she got me some of the others, Romeo and Juliet, and it was just...
00:37:02
Speaker
But they're the they kind of look like the Twilight covers. ah That kind of drama. so very, very nice. What about you? Your pleasant thought for the week. Let's see.
00:37:15
Speaker
love the beginning of the new year, just like having that fresh start and that just sense of a clean slate. I really love that. Mm-hmm. So I'm just reveling in that still because we're only a few days into 2025. So I'm enjoying that.
00:37:29
Speaker
I also don't normally like odd numbered years, but 2025 is just such a nice number. So I'm excited for it. A quarter a century we're there. So cool.
00:37:42
Speaker
So I probably should discuss this with you before I put it live and on our podcast, but I'll cut it out if I don't have to.
New Podcast Announcement
00:37:48
Speaker
um I think next week, if we want to do two episodes for me back to back and I'll just do Bathory next time we record.
00:37:53
Speaker
Sounds good. You don't have to worry about researching because Sierra is leaving forever. Not forever. It's just for a couple of years. That's forever.
00:38:06
Speaker
No, Sierra will be moving out of the country. Yeah. Nothing to do with the election. but no No, I'm not moving with Ellen and her... yeah I'm not moving with Ellen. I'm moving to Papua New Guinea and this was already planned.
00:38:23
Speaker
yeah She's going to work down in Papua New Guinea and she's going to great things and we're all going to miss her dearly until we we finally take that group... like We take the vacation out of the group chat and we go to New Zealand.
00:38:35
Speaker
yes she meets us there. so but My passport got here. have passport Yay! so exciting. I still plan on recording, but probably the first couple weeks, it'll be a little bit off. We'll have to figure out time zones and times and the house. I haven't seen the house yet what the room setup is like. So once I know all that, we'll get back in the groove. Yeah. So it might be better for for us to do two Kaylee episodes back to back so I can do the research and she can focus on being fully present in her new job and her her new country for a little bit.
00:39:13
Speaker
So I'm sorry. You might have to hear me yap for two weeks. I enjoy listening to you talk. so That makes one of us.
00:39:22
Speaker
um What else? Hopefully, at some point soon, we have started second podcast. hu Because this one's clearly going so well. We stick to schedules like like nothing.
00:39:34
Speaker
um Our other podcast isn't in the vein of true crime. It's actually... Very different. What do you call just like talking? I think it would technically be under lifestyle.
00:39:46
Speaker
Lifestyle, maybe comedy. I don't know. Sort of. But basically it's us. It's the two of us and then our other friend Naomi who we've mentioned multiple times in this podcast. Yeah. And um it's all of us talking about our experiences in life and opinions on things where it's called 3 for 3.
00:40:07
Speaker
and Once it's been published, I think I'll probably, we can post a ah little trailer about it here. you guys can find it. If you want to listen to it, I don't know. If you're here for true crime, you're probably not here for listening to three women run off at the mouth about life experiences. But our first episode, um I'm hoping to have out before February.
00:40:29
Speaker
um What do we call that one? We were calling it like, what was it I think we settled on... I know adultery was in the title. Wasn't it Anxiety, Apocalypse, and Adultery?
00:40:41
Speaker
That was it. Yes. So... That's what we're talking about. I'd like to think that I'm fairly restrained on this podcast and I try to come across as professional and like I know what I'm talking about.
00:40:54
Speaker
But I did talk in the other podcast about 10 minutes about how I don't want to die in my sleep. So, and how, or quickly and how. No, she wants to favor it. We, we really disagreed on the method of death.
00:41:08
Speaker
Like a Viking. I don't wish to go out peacefully. And that's all I'll say. Well, we also discussed cannibalism, which relates back to our Donner Party episode. Yeah. Turns out I'm the first person in line to get eaten, but I also had a good reason why you shouldn't eat She volunteered, I would to say. did. This wasn't assigned.
00:41:26
Speaker
I accepted the reality of the situation. But at the same time, and just listen to the episode. Dad probably don't.
00:41:37
Speaker
But that should be interesting. 3 for 3, look for it. On Spotify, if you listen to us on Apple Podcasts, it should be there too. We'll figure it out.
00:41:49
Speaker
But yeah, think that wraps us up this week. Next week, our case will be... It'll be me again. Sorry. um And we'll be talking about Elizabeth Boutery, another oldie. I'm excited for this one. Kaylee told me a little bit about it, and it sounds very... Oh, what's the word? i don't know.
00:42:04
Speaker
Just scandalous. Yeah, disgusting too. It is scandalous. Yes, this one is another old case. so kind of... I do believe... Like we were with.
00:42:15
Speaker
With Sonny Bean. It'll be a bit more glib. um Again. it's It's a dubious historical origin. yeah exactly the extent. Of her crimes were.
00:42:26
Speaker
Either way. It's messed up. um And we'll be talking about. Bathing in the blood of virgins next week. so yeah Or maybe not next week. Next episode. but
00:42:38
Speaker
Anyway. Until then. Take care. Be aware. Wait, I said backwards. Whoa. That's okay. I was going to roll with it, but we could start over. Until then, be aware. Take care.
00:42:49
Speaker
and we'll see you next time. Bye.