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Tangent Tuesday: The Death Penalty--Justice or Revenge?
74 Plays2 years ago
Join Siera and Kayley as they tackle a tough topic in today's Tangent Tuesday: capital punishment. Emotions can quickly rise to the surface when we consider the sensitivities surrounding life, death, and justice.
On Tangent Tuesdays, we take a break from covering cases to discuss general true crime topics. If you would like to join in the conversation, feel free to email your thoughts to us at truecppodcast@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to Tangent Tuesday
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi, I'm Sierra. And I'm Kaylee. And this is True Crime and Punishment, Tangent Tuesday edition. Instead of focusing on specific cases, we'll be discussing different topics related to the true crime world. This week's tangent is the death penalty.
00:00:18
Speaker
So for Tangent Tuesdays, we're a little bit more relaxed. It's not as much research-based as it is just opinion-based. You can think of it as like an op-ed but podcast edition.
Debate on Death Penalty Views
00:00:29
Speaker
These episodes are definitely more opinion-based as opposed to research and facts-based, so everything we say now is based on our opinion right now as it stands.
00:00:37
Speaker
If we do some more research and our opinions do change, you know, we can revisit this topic in the future. But as of right now, this is my official take on the death penalties and Sierra's as well. I'm, I don't want to say more into true crime, but I've been into true crime for much longer than Sierra has. I kind of dragged her down this path with me because she's a good friend. She was willing to go with me and, you know, look into the deep, dark and terrible. Do you want to start with your opinion on the death penalty or do you want me to start?
00:01:03
Speaker
Sure, I don't mind. Like Kaylee said, we still have to do more research on this, or at least I do. I personally believe in the idea of the death penalty, but I feel like the more research I do, my opinion will change more on how it should be conducted because I know there's a lot of uncertainty that can surround it, if that's the best way to describe it.
00:01:22
Speaker
So I am pro-death penalty, but I understand there's a lot of factors at play because you know in the justice system it's human beings running it. So it's going to be imperfect and obviously people's lives are on the line. So you don't want to make mistakes. What's your take on it?
00:01:37
Speaker
I believe in the idea of the death penalty. I think if you take a human life, you are culpable and you are eligible, I guess, if that's probably the best word, but to have your life taken in return. It's kind of like an eye for an eye, but not quite, but that's always been my opinion growing up. It made sense to me, but as an adult who's into true crime, well, I agree with the idea of if you commit a murder,
00:01:58
Speaker
you're taking your life into your own hands and at that point you're saying okay well I'm gonna do this and I understand that this means that I could have my life taken in return and that does mean that I believe there should be some level of understanding if you're having some sort of mental or psychotic break which means you can get an insanity
Financial and Emotional Costs of Capital Punishment
00:02:14
Speaker
defense which one day we'll have to talk about that as well because the insanity defense is not I don't believe it to be a right off defense it is a difficult thing to get in a court it's not easy to say oh I'm crazy therefore I can't be held accountable for this but
00:02:26
Speaker
I think if you know willingly what you're doing, that you put yourself in a situation. I also believe that it's not something that should be taking place in the United States.
00:02:33
Speaker
Like it all. Like it all. Just because people have been executed incorrectly without enough evidence. I've heard of cases where people get charged with murder and there's no body, there's no forensic evidence, it's all circumstantial. And if those people were to be put to death and then it turns out, oh, that person's not even dead, that's just beyond my realm of comfort. I think as long as there's an element of fallibility and humans being able to make the wrong choice, that it should be on the table.
00:02:57
Speaker
But I also recognize that as an extreme take. I just believe that when humans can be making mistakes that it's not wise to take that. I don't know. I feel like it sounds really ignorant. It sounds like, well, if you can't 100% pray, why should anyone blah, blah, blah? But no, but I can see what you're saying because it is a very sensitive issue.
Deterrence and Justice vs. Revenge
00:03:14
Speaker
Right. And the more you hear about it, the more you hear about people who are on death row for years and they're not guilty. It just over time touched my heart a little bit and just makes me feel like, okay, well, maybe we should, you know, not be doing that because I've heard a lot of people defend to the death penalty by saying,
00:03:29
Speaker
Oh, it's saving money. We're not housing these people. We're not feeding them anymore. First of all, human life is human life and it's not cheap regardless of what you do. Second of all, it's not inexpensive to execute someone. It takes thousands of dollars in preparation. There's court fees that have to be paid. There's a lot of steps that go into executing someone and it's not cheap.
00:03:49
Speaker
is not saving people money, it's actually it's costing people their peace. Someone has to be the person who gives the lethal injection, pushes the button on the electric chair, that's coming at the expense of someone else. And then another reason I'm okay with saying that I don't think we should do it at all is so few people are actually executed every year in the United States. I don't really have information outside of the United States, but the amount of people
00:04:12
Speaker
who are actually executed in the US is less than 20. In the United States in 2022 only 18 people were executed in prison systems and for the amount of people that are convicted of murder every year that's such a small number and it's obviously not that much of a deterrent because you're committing murder you're already risking life in prison or the death penalty. I know there are people who will take life in prison they'll reach a plea deal
00:04:37
Speaker
As much as I'm not for the death penalty actually being practiced, I'm glad that it does exist because the death penalty scares enough people to have them change their plea, but that's a double-edged sword because I also feel like the death penalty scares people who are innocent into changing their plea because when you take the death penalty off the table, it gives people a chance. They'll use it in plea bargains where it's like, oh, well, if you confess, we'll take the death penalty off the table. And then you get, you know, 30 years with the possibility of parole or life without the possibility of parole. So it's good in that sense. Talking about deterrence.
00:05:07
Speaker
Do you think that the fact that the death penalty is not practiced very often, do you think that makes it less significant as a deterrent?
Role of Government and Historical Perspectives
00:05:15
Speaker
Like if we actually practiced it more and did it more swiftly, do you think it would be a better deterrent or not really? I think I don't know.
00:05:22
Speaker
Um, genuinely, I think it would be in some sense, but not completely because the death penalty did used to be practiced a lot more freely and we still have people committing crimes. I feel like if you were more scared of the death penalty, it would work, but people are arrogant creatures. They think they'll get away with everything and people get away with things.
00:05:39
Speaker
for years and years and years and years. You can look at the Golden State Killer. That case was cold for decades. You can look at the Jacob Waterling case. They did not find his murderer for 27 years. So people are arrogant and they do get away with things. So I don't know if having a more swift death penalty would really show that much of a decrease in overall crime statistics or if it would just mean that more people are executed without cause or like a more innocent. Yeah.
00:06:04
Speaker
or like people are, I don't know, I feel like whenever you look into the West Memphis Three, it's a great way to look at the death penalty and kind of change your perspective a little bit because I've always been pro death penalty. Pro practicing, pro you kill someone, you know, if you're a murderer, get out of here. But then you see the nuance of the justice system. And it's hard to say with 100% certainty, if someone is completely guilty, or if it's just wrong place, wrong time, biased jury, biased cop, it's unfortunate, but it happens.
00:06:31
Speaker
That's true. No, that's just that element of human error. What you said about people being pro death penalty because of the cost, that really is ridiculous. Because like you were saying, human life is precious, the life is a life and expenses should never be our reason for choosing to end a human life. The whole concept behind the death penalty is the idea of justice. And I guess that's why, you know, it seems idealistic. But again, if you take a human life, you take something you give what do you have of equal value, your own life, if you purposely take a life you must give
00:07:01
Speaker
But I see what you're saying about mistakes and about the danger for mistakes occurring and that's really scary right another thing that I looked at the price real quick I know we said we don't really research for this but I did want to have that number according to Nevada legislature the median death penalty case cost about 1.26 million non-death penalty cases were counted throughout the end of their incarceration to be less than 1 million dollars at about $740,000 that's still a lot of money, but it's
00:07:26
Speaker
Not 1.26 million. And I like what you said about the death penalty. It's about justice. Because a lot of things in court cases, it's so emotional. And it's very easy to say that as someone who's not a victim in a court case or a victim's family member. So often people who are pro-death penalty and anti-death penalty, specifically pro-death penalty, there's a lot of, oh, it's justice. That's the right thing to do. And it's revenge.
00:07:47
Speaker
And I feel like over time, we've blurred that line between justice and revenge. Because justice has no emotion. Justice is just right. But revenge, it's very emotional. And it's kind of how I was raised, you know, and I've heard I makes the whole world blind kind of thing. But revenge was never an option. In my family growing up, we were taught that hurting someone because they hurt you doesn't make you feel better. And it's true. And I know for a family that's probably different, where it's like, I'm sure that if someone hurt a member of my family or killed a member of my family, or someone I loved, I'd be like, yeah, put them in the ground.
00:08:16
Speaker
But emotionally, that's taking a toll on those families because it's also an argument like, oh, should families of the victim be allowed to make that decision? What are your thoughts on that? No. And this is coming from a biblical standpoint because I'm a Christian. But when God talked about capital punishment in Genesis 9, he was giving that authority to a government because again, there's that whole element of the emotion.
Castration and Alternative Punishments
00:08:40
Speaker
If a family chooses that
00:08:42
Speaker
You know, it's not anymore. You're kind of saying it's out of revenge. It's not out of justice, which I understand. Like if someone were to kill a member of my family, I would totally want that person to suffer. But again, there's that whole thing of as humans, we can't allow our emotions to dictate our morality. We have to be impersonal. Right. And I love that emotions cannot dictate your morality.
00:09:04
Speaker
more and more I'm saying that oh you do this because it feels right or you think this is right because it makes you feel happy and that is such a dangerous slope to go down especially in areas of government because again justice should be impartial justice is just justice it's meted out not meant to be emotionally driven and that scares me a little bit because I know a lot of people who are like oh well the family should get to make that choice I've heard a lot especially in the truth I'm like oh put the family in there for 15 minutes I'm like
00:09:30
Speaker
That is such an emotional burden to hand to someone who is grieving, who has been deeply hurt. I know one of these days we'll have to do a tangent Tuesday about forgiveness because that is something that always boggles my mind when you see a family that has forgiven someone who has hurt their family deeply. And I can also see that it boggles a lot of people's minds.
00:09:47
Speaker
in the true kind of community. I've listened to many podcasts where people just don't understand how the mother of a victim could forgive their child's killer or how anyone could forgive someone who has hurt them and I think both Sierra and I have a Christian background and that is something that oftentimes you'll see a religious family will say that and so I think we'd be able to give some pretty good insight as to why people believe in that kind of forgiveness and truly there is a power in that kind of forgiveness. This is really a tangent because we started on the death penalty and now we're talking about the power of forgiveness but
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, I am, in a sense, pro-death penalty, but I'm not pro-practice. But I do like what you said about how it was given to the government's hands that is scriptural. Because I think a lot of times we fall into this whole thinking, oh, only alt-right people really believe in the death penalty, and it's only those Christians who believe in this. I'm like, it is a biblical concept, but it's also a logical concept. A lot of people I know who believe in the death penalty, it doesn't really come from a biblical place. It comes from a place of pure logic, where it's like, you take a life, you give your life. That's it.
00:10:42
Speaker
And in a perfect world that would be, there would be no emotion. It would just be, this is what you have done. And so your consequences of equal measure. Going back with death penalty, you mentioned that there has to be someone who pushes the button or does the injection, you know, all of that stuff. And it made me think that would be another really interesting tangent Tuesday in the future is looking at the history of executioners and everything that's associated with that because that burden.
00:11:09
Speaker
I cannot imagine how heavy that is. That's 100% something that's very interesting to look into. I have a little bit of background knowledge on this because I've looked into it before. But executioners had such an emotional burden for everything that they had to go through. In ye olden times, an executioner often lived on the outskirts of town because they were seen as tainted or lesser than the general populace because they had
00:11:36
Speaker
Taking a life and there's an irony in oh you took a life So someone else is gonna take your life, but that person's not gonna be penalized So it's a very nuanced topic and I feel like with a lot of sensitive topics We kind of fall into the category of it's all black or white. You're either right or wrong There's nowhere in between but you know, there is an in-between I'm saying I believe in it, but I also believe that it shouldn't be practiced So that's like a very in-between opinion
00:11:58
Speaker
And who's to say maybe with some research my opinion has changed over the years? Who's to say that it won't swing back in one direction or swing back in the other?
Defense Attorneys and Public Perception
00:12:05
Speaker
One day I'll be saying, well, I don't think the death penalty is ethical. I will say based on my knowledge now, I mean, I don't think that my opinion will change about the death penalty. I think I'm pretty staunchly uncomfortable with where I'm sitting. I don't feel like I need to say that it's wrong to say that it needs to not be practiced. But what do you think Sierra? Do you think that your opinion will ever change with more research or are you pretty solid in what you know?
00:12:23
Speaker
I think it could change as I learn more about it for sure. Because again, and I know it's impossible to ever have something without mistakes, especially when humans are running it. And even when we were talking about the death penalty is in the hands of the government who runs the government.
00:12:37
Speaker
human beings. They're going to make mistakes. So I will say, I think as of right now, I do not know where I stand on the death penalty. The principle behind it, I believe is right. However, you've raised some really good points about the practice. So I don't know where I stand about it being practiced.
00:13:11
Speaker
about a certain execution if I felt there was probable cause. But I think the greatest part about being a human being is that you are always learning, always. You never are done learning new things. There's always something else for you to learn. So there's always going to be another story, another perspective, another fact that'll make you go back and look at your beliefs. There are very few things in life that you can be 100% sure of.
00:13:20
Speaker
in the United States yet.
00:13:34
Speaker
I love that about humanity. I think it's cool to be able to look into it. And it's also really nice to have a friend like Sierra where I could
Objective Legal Systems and Emotional Bias
00:13:40
Speaker
say probably just about anything. And she'd be like, let's talk about that. There's not the instant judgment of you're wrong or you're 100% right. Would you say that true crime has kind of changed your perspective on the death penalty? It showed me something, I think, kind of scary about myself.
00:13:58
Speaker
in that while I was doing the research, I found myself switching so quickly to, oh my goodness, this man needs to die. I had that emotional reaction and I have no ties to the case. I have no ties to the victims. I have no ties in my personal history. Nothing like that has ever happened to my family. And so it kind of showed me as humans, it's so easy for us to quickly go from one extreme to the next.
00:14:23
Speaker
But it just showed me how quickly I can be swayed to one side or another. Right. And that's another thing where someone tells me like, oh, I don't think your crime is ethical. I think this is why it's something that people should be interested in is there have been cases like that where your emotions will swing back and forth so wildly and you realize exactly why you need someone who has the ability to take themselves fully out of it and be like, you know, a representative for the accused or what have you.
00:14:49
Speaker
because there was a case, I can't remember the exact details, but I was looking into it and the more I looked into it, angrier I got and I was like, how is this man not rotting in prison? XYZ, I was just livid, he definitely did it and then I got to the end, turns out wasn't him, 100% ruled out, not that guy at all. It's another guy who was currently rotting in prison for it. That was years and years ago when I was first committed to true crime and I realized, oh facts are important and your feelings don't matter.
00:15:17
Speaker
when it comes to what actually happened. So I think that's why, you know, it's interesting to look into this in a respectful way and to make those assumptions. No. Spoiler alert, podcasts don't always go perfectly. This is not the first time we've tried to record this. The last time we discussed this. Sierra, you brought up a very interesting question. I'm going to ask you to bring it up again about sexual offenders and the death penalty. Oh, yes. Do you believe that rapists should suffer the death penalty? I do not, because it's going to go back to why I don't think murderers should suffer the death penalty.
00:15:46
Speaker
You have assaulted someone, you have taken away something from someone, but you have not killed them so I feel like killing them is not a just answer. I do think you should have your personal liberties taken away from you and you should be thrown in prison, but I don't believe in the death penalty for cases of rape. What about castration? I am also very down for that.
00:16:09
Speaker
The only reason I'm not fully down for this is one, I personally know people who were falsely accused. The thought of something happening to them and it not being reversible because somebody lied. I'm not down for that. Second of all, that's not fair. We do have female offenders. What are we going to do to them? Another thing is I remember this case
00:16:29
Speaker
where a college student was accused of rape. One day, campus security came, knock, knock, knocking on his door, and arrested him because a girl that he'd had sex with said that she had been attacked and that he had raped her. I am saying had sex with because it was consensual. It was found to be a consensual action between the two. I'm saying with full confidence and with legal proof that it was not a sexual assault. I would never call a rape sex, but they had had sex.
00:16:56
Speaker
and then he'd been arrested. He lost a scholarship, he lost a bunch of friends, he was in obviously deep legal trouble, and what had happened was
00:17:07
Speaker
Her friends had been talking to her and she said she'd been assaulted by him and then her friends had her contact came up with security which then contacted police and then he was arrested.
Exploring Ethical Punishments for Sexual Offenders
00:17:17
Speaker
Turns out she had been lying because she said she had not invited him over for sexual reasons. She did not intend to sleep with him. He just assaulted her. But he was only saved because there's a video of them outside of the bar where they met.
00:17:29
Speaker
where they run into a friend of hers and she walks behind him and she makes a crude sexual gesture signaling to her friend that she plans on sleeping with his mother.
00:17:39
Speaker
And she did it out of his eyeshot. So if she wasn't signaling for help, she was signaling her intention. And that was proven. The charges were dropped. He had still lost his scholarship, and he had to struggle to get that scholarship back. Just a false accusation ruined this man's life for a while and could continue to ruin his future. And so had he been arrested and castrated, I guess he could have sued the state for millions of dollars.
00:18:02
Speaker
There's just so many people out there who are willing to say terrible things in order to hurt someone else that I don't think it's ever going to be policy for that to happen. Now, if chemical castration was still a thing and it was reversible, I'd be like, yeah, do it. That's my opinion on that. What about you, Sierra? What do you feel about that?
00:18:19
Speaker
Once again, I am torn. And part of it goes back to the case I was researching. In this instance, where there's so much guilt and it's recurring, something should have been done. But again, I see what you're saying, to completely ruin someone's life on the basis of a false accusation. But then I'm also thinking about different cases that we've discussed researching where there were children that were hurt. And I think in those cases, especially, I'm just like, people who are sick enough to do that usually don't stop.
00:18:49
Speaker
Right. And part of me is like, oh, welfare is forensic evidence. A rape kit is performed. But that also goes back to people lie. Yeah. And I'm not downplaying the toll that sexual assault takes on people. It's it's violating. It's terrible. It can make you feel subhuman. And that's a massive violation of your rights.
00:19:09
Speaker
But at the end of the day, I feel like prison time or the justice system we have in place for that now is adequate. Now for repeat offenders, I would also say that's not quite adequate enough. Because like you said, if someone is going to repeatedly prove that this is the kind of person that they are, elevated kind of punishment should be a thing.
00:19:29
Speaker
I don't know. I think it's not black and white and there's a lot of nuance to every case. That's the word of true crime this week,
Conclusion on Justice and Decision-Making
00:19:35
Speaker
nuance. You gotta be able to look between. Another tangent Tuesday we should do is about defense attorneys. Because I'm sick to death of people being mad at defense attorneys for doing their jobs. Well, and there I stand guilty again because doing the research for the David Leonard Wood case
00:19:52
Speaker
Part of me is thinking, how in the world are his attorneys still fighting for this? So again, it's one of those things where our human reaction is instantly, let's condemn this. And I think that comes from a good place, but you're right. And that we also need to understand there has to be a defense attorney for our justice system to work. There has to be one. And we shouldn't hate them because they're doing a job that is a vital part of our justice system.
00:20:22
Speaker
And, you know, good defense attorneys need to be a thing because I know people say, oh, they had this criminal defense attorney and they were famous for getting people off of charges. That means they're good at their job. Any other questions about the death penalty?
00:20:36
Speaker
I don't know if I ever gave my opinion on death penalty for rape, but I agree with you that that's not the correct legal response. I don't think because again, like you said, the punishment doesn't match the nature of the crime. I think I'm still pro-castration if it is a repeat offender and there's conclusive proof. Like again, in the chase of child molesters, different things like that. Like where it's something that is so wrong and it's something that's never going to get better. I am pro-castration for that.
00:21:04
Speaker
That's really interesting because I feel like we're going back to the time we read it. I'm not saying like we're going backwards and that's bad. I'm saying that that's like old justice where you were a thief or cutting off a finger.
00:21:15
Speaker
Right, which I'm not saying we should go back to that. I'm not saying that you are. But I think it's interesting that we're circling back because elements of that sort of punishment make sense now. The brutality of that also comes from the fact that I can't see the government nowadays being like, oh, you stole from the local Walmart? Well, pick a finger. It's going bye-bye, boys. But on some level, that makes sense. You steal with these hands, you lose those hands. But at what point does the government have too much control over our bodies? Right. And. Conspiracy corner.
00:21:44
Speaker
I know I said earlier about how the death penalty is in the hands of the government and I do believe that from a biblical standpoint, Romans 13 talks about how the government is the one in charge of punishing those who do evil and the government has the sword. So that's where I'm drawing it from. But while I've said that and I do believe that's what it is, I will say I don't always trust the officials that are in charge of our government and I don't believe that they always have the best interests of people at heart. So it is tricky because while that
00:22:14
Speaker
is the biblical mandate. I also know that for me personally, I do not trust our leaders to be straight up with us all the time and to choose to do what is right, even if it does not benefit them. Final thoughts, it's definitely a multifaceted issue and I don't think it's something that should be decided quickly. It requires a lot of thought and taking emotion out of it as much as possible.
00:22:37
Speaker
right and that's the key is emotion does not need to be the main driving force behind every decision i really respect what you have to say i think you make very good points and you know we never learn unless we talk about these things so well that has been our tangent on the death penalty that'll wrap us up this week so remember folks be aware take care we'll see you next week bye