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142: "Stay Safe, Stay Healthy, and Rock and Roll!" with Attorney Adele Abrams
1 Playsin 15 hours
Jill sits down with Adele Abrams—attorney, safety professional, author, and nationally recognized OSHA and MSHA expert—about her unconventional journey from rock-and-roll radio and television into a career focused on OHS and law. Adele reflects on the experiences that shaped her expertise in construction and mining, her work on complex health hazards such as asbestos and silica exposure, and the mentors who helped her build a national practice while earning respected safety credentials.
Now serving as Senior Counsel at Littler Mendelson P.C. and leader of the firm’s MSHA litigation, Adele shares lessons from decades of handling workplace fatality investigations and regulatory cases. She discusses her commitment to “holistic settlements” that invest in training and safety improvements, offers insights on the growing politicization of workplace safety regulation, and provides practical advice for staying informed in a changing regulatory landscape. Adele emphasizes the importance of mentoring, teaching, and developing the next generation of safety professionals as part of her lasting legacy of protecting workers and saving lives.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:08
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded July 24th, 2026. My name is Jill James, HSI's chief safety officer.
00:00:19
Speaker
My guest today is Adele Abrams. Adele is a quintessential worker justice advocate and is a bit of a legend in our EHS community for her wisdom and advocacy.
Adele Abrams' Career and Achievements
00:00:30
Speaker
Adele is an attorney providing legal representation and compliance training nationally in the areas of OSHA and MSHA litigation. Adele is also an associate safety professional, certified mind safety professional, a nationally recognized author and speaker on occupational and mind safety.
00:00:48
Speaker
She's also won an Emmy, and I can't wait to hear about that. And in 2017, she received the National Safety Council's Distinguished safe Service Safety Award. And in her spare time, she somehow manages to teach legal courses as an adjunct faculty member at the University of Colorado Boulder in their master's management program.
00:01:09
Speaker
Adele is joining us today from Delaware.
Personal Life and Early Career
00:01:11
Speaker
Welcome to the show. Well, thank you. And hello to everybody out there. Yeah, we've been trying to we've been trying to get together to do this for quite some time, Adele. I'm so happy you're able to make the time.
00:01:23
Speaker
Well, i I like to say it's hard to hit a moving target. And I i am based out of D.C. in my legal practice. I live in Delaware. ah i do have a place in D.C. And I spend about a third of my time on the West Coast as well ah with ah my my significant other who has a base out there. And that has been taking me in some interesting directions because he's an actor and comedian. So all of a sudden I'm i'm getting, ah you know, my My juice is flowing again creatively in what you're going to hear about being my original ah career in radio and TV. Yeah, talk about that. you So you started, yeah, you have a background in broadcasting. Let's see how in the world did this person become an accidental safety professional? Tell us that beginning. Yeah.
Broadcasting Journey and Influences
00:02:14
Speaker
I would say I probably am the quintessential accidental safety professional. And when I run into people that I've known, you know, from back in the day, as they say, and they say, what are you doing now? I say, oh, I do workplace safety and health. And they look at me, what? You?
00:02:28
Speaker
Um, because i I will say I wasn't necessarily known for my, my safe behavior back in my rock and roll days, but, um, to give you a little bit of the the background story, i started as a small child, uh, but I wasn't still relatively a small child at the age of 16 and being short. um When I left home and I started college at 16 i had always been a music fanatic.
00:02:57
Speaker
um You know, my earliest memories are correlated with the songs of the 50s and yeah i am dating myself now. Don't try to count my rings. But, um you know, I loved, loved, loved music. i was a little bit of a precocious ah pianist by the age of five. So I did take piano lessons and and and played for many years. um And but I loved rock and roll. You know, that that was my thing. You know, i was, ah you know, about 10 years old, I guess, when the Beatles hit the U.S. and, you know, went crazy over that. And I was the kid, and I've learned I'm not alone in this, who would sleep at night with my transistor radio under my pillow so my mother wouldn't know that I was still up and listening to music. wow And ah i grew up in the New Jersey, in new jersey which New York City area, and they had a DJ on what was the progressive station, you know, again, back in the 60s, female DJ, Alison Steele, the night bird, as she was known. And she was really kind of my idol. You know, it was the first time it hit me that a woman could actually be on the radio or a girl. And this was, you know, at the budding days of feminism. um You know, I mean, I went to an all girls Catholic school and, you know, they were pushing us hard to go in the convent. um
00:04:19
Speaker
and That did not click with me, as as you might imagine. But music and and writing and art, those were all my my subject areas that resonated with me. But when I got to college, i I started as a journalism major. And I found out pretty quickly that University of Maryland, which is where I i attended for undergrad, they had a radio station. And a couple of the people that I got to be friends with We're doing stuff on the radio station. So, course, you know, I I trotted my little 17 year old self at that point down there and said, I want to be on the air. um
00:04:58
Speaker
So I started off as a news reporter right when the war was like Vietnam. I should need to clarify these days which war. Vietnam War was was happening. And i remember being locked in the administration building when there were riots and tear gas outside. And I'm trying to do interviews, you know, for WMUC News. um But I really wanted to do the a rock and roll show. So I managed to finagle myself a show from one one o'clock in the morning to three in the morning.
00:05:29
Speaker
And as you might imagine, I didn't make it to a lot of my early classes. Yeah. You were trying to mimic the Nightbird woman that you listened to. And, you know, it was it was a freeform, progressive music, you know, anything you wanted to play for the college radio station. And I just reveled in it and they had a record library and I buried myself in it. And, you know, kind of thoughts of being a news reporter just trotted right out the door. um And so when I graduated, ah there was a station.
00:06:03
Speaker
this is This is important, called WHFS FM 102.3 on your dial. And was like all... the people who liked progressive rock and roll music listened to on my campus. And I used to say, well, my life's goal is to get a job at WHFS.
00:06:22
Speaker
And right out of college, I got a job on a different station, WINX, Style 16, you know, the voice of Montgomery County, Maryland. And that was a top 40 station. And, you know, needless to say, I i was hating life there. But somebody mentioned to me, WHFS is looking to hire a woman to be on the air.
00:06:44
Speaker
Well, dig ding, ding, ding, ding. Mm hmm. So I sent in an air check from my college station, which was more akin to their format. And the program director called me and um I met him for beers at the bar right across the street from the station. This is how job interviews were done back in the day before there was Monster Kids. yeah yeah yeah You got drunk with your prospective boss. Right.
00:07:10
Speaker
We did. We sat there and got got into arguments about, you know what was the best miled day Miles Davis album and stuff like that. And i thought, well, I've blown this because I've been arguing with him.
00:07:21
Speaker
But he called me and I did my first show ah the following Saturday. And that was in August of 1974. So three months out of college, I had achieved my goal. But I was doing part time work there. And One thing people don't know about radio is unless you are, you know, one of the big shock jocks or you're on a a major, you know, network station, they don't pay all that much. You know, you're doing it for the love of it. and And I was. But I think back and, boy, did I have, you know, some comical jobs. I mean, I was – With with with ah a boyfriend of mine, we painted at the inside of a post office and we striped parking lots. You know, this was my first construction jobs. and
00:08:07
Speaker
And, you know, I was so I was selling magazines by telephone and, of course, waitressing. I started waitressing at 14 and I think I had my final waitress job at about 24. So that was that was a long career for me.
00:08:21
Speaker
um one way that's That's beautiful. i know and I do have striped parking lots. Yeah, it was fun. You know, it it beats sitting at a desk. It sure did. Yeah. I looked at it and, you know, shape of things to come in here for foreshadowing.
00:08:36
Speaker
um But the the bottom line is, excuse me, I worked at that radio station full time at times, part time at other times ah for 14 years. Wow.
00:08:48
Speaker
And during that period, i was doing other things, you know, including going to grad school. And I ended up, you know, kind of accidentally falling into government affairs work um through initially a temp job and then through a full-time job
Transition to Safety and Government Affairs
00:09:08
Speaker
I got. All the time I'm still doing the radio thing, by the way. yeah What were you going to grad school for, Adele? I did my grad work in public relations and marketing. Okay, got it. All right. Which, you know, didn't really pertain to a whole lot I was doing, except I was doing some of the program promotion at WHFS and later also at... at
00:09:30
Speaker
uh, WRC, which was an NBC affiliate. I was their program promotion director for a while. Uh, and I was still doing the HFS radio show part time. I mean, it was a very weird, uh, you know convergence of things, but I do want it before I get into the government affairs track, because that is what led me to safety. Yeah. Um, you mentioned the Emmy. Yes, exactly. I was going to bring you back to that. Tell us. So, um They made a movie about WHFS, the radio station. And anybody who has a ah PBS public broadcasting ah passport, you can watch it on demand for free.
00:10:10
Speaker
um It does air on TV periodically. And it's called Feast Your Ears, the Story of WHFS. And I'm in it, of course, because, you know, i was obviously one of the few women who did a show on there during its heyday. ah But I also ended up being co-producer of the movie. And we did win an Emmy in 2025 for the Best Historical Documentary.
00:10:39
Speaker
And while I was thrilled about the Emmy, I have to say it pained me to think that my misspent youth is now a historical documentary. Yeah. I think that's fantastic. So do you like, do you have this Emmy in the house where you're recording with us right now? um Yes, I do. Actually. That's fantastic. Does it have a specific place that it lives in honor in your house? right Right now it is in my bedroom because I have to find a real proper place for it. ah it They sent me one and it it cracked. Oh, no. They had to send me a replacement one, which I do have now. And ah ah I've been on on the road quite a bit, so I have to find a proper home. But I i was at the ceremony. i went up to the stage. Oh, my gosh. You know, of course, the executive ah producer director of the movie, he's the big enchilada on it. And this has evolved where I'm now working with him on a new documentary. This is a aside from my safety and legal work about um a comedy troupe ah that started in the 1960s called the Firesign Theater. Firesign Theater. And um my partner, Phil Proctor, was one of the founding members of that, along with a fellow Yalie of his and ah two other very talented people. And they they in turn were up for, you know, Grammys and they've been inducted into the Library of Congress. But um it did whet my appetite working on the first movie. So I'm involved in that. I i may be getting involved doing that. some musical direction for another movie that that a friend is working on right now. And, ah you know, I should mention that my HFS work also back in the 80s, now we're talking, i'm i'm really taking it through ancient history here, but I hosted a television show for five years. And it was...
00:12:33
Speaker
a music oriented show. I would invite bands to come in. They would play live. We taped it at a bar and I would interview them. ah And so some of those are still out there um on YouTube. If anybody is interested in what would they search for? Something weird. You can, you can look up Adele Abrams and Tacoma Tempo. And that's Tacoma with a K because it was Tacoma Park, Maryland.
00:12:58
Speaker
But they're still out there. And I'm still friends with a lot of the people, if they if they haven't died off, who did some of these shows. So that's that's kind of cool. And I'm also now doing a radio show again on public broadcasting in the D.C. market. ah But I like to say on occasional Sundays. It's given me maximum flexibility. But you know what Kind of doing the WHFS movie, gu as I said, got my juices flowing again about the music scene. And yeah I've always stayed connected with that. So like ah now I yeah co-host a show called Forbidden Alliance on WOWD, which is... ah
00:13:41
Speaker
back again in Tacoma Park, Maryland. It's TacomaRadio.org. And it is, ah you know, part of the public broadcasting system. So it's really, I've come full circle, you know, after everything I've done, I'm kind of back to where I was in 1974. Oh my gosh, you sure have. And you're definitely the first and only Emmy winner we've ever had on the Accidental Safety Pro. So that is, that is cool. You are a Renaissance woman, Adele. So tell us, all right, you got into somehow you managed to go to grad school and somehow you made a leap into government affairs. Is that where we left off? Well, I got into, yeah, I got into government affairs and you're exactly right. My, you know, I feel like in some ways my life has been a series of accidental changes.
00:14:30
Speaker
encounters. um I got into the government affairs work ah initially on a short-term assignment with a very small lobbying office. It was one woman and her assistant was out on maternity leave. And, you know, I i got the job, again, still DJing and doing other things. But um That was kind of my first. She had me reading the Federal Register and any safety people out there will know that, you know, learning to read the Federal Register is a blessing and a curse. That's right. That's right. I mean, i have. Yes, i I love it. And also, yes, it always makes me want to get out like four different highlighter markers because that that's how I was trained to read them. And, and you know, i mean, here here we are. That was around 1982. Sure. And here we are, 2026.
00:15:26
Speaker
twenty twenty six i still go through the table of contents of the Federal Register every day, you know, just to see anything that might you know pertain to occupational safety and health. I look at EPA, see what they're up to, and then I cry a little bit. um You know, poor manatees and the all of the endangered species. But I digress. um You know, and and so it was like, ok you know, this is really kind of interesting stuff. And I ended up getting ah a job with a a trade association, which I probably shouldn't mention, but I will just to show the odd paths that people take. um
00:16:07
Speaker
this This now was directly as a result of my getting my my master's in public relations. I got hired by, you ready for this one? Okay. You might want a seatbelt for this one. Okay, okay, okay, I'm breaking, all right.
00:16:20
Speaker
The Tobacco Institute. oh o And I was writing their newsletters internally. I was writing their external magazine articles and writing pamphlets on the tobacco history of Florida and things that they would use as part of their lobbying materials. And of course, you know, I was involved with doing some state and federal government affairs work as part of that because I was the writer, you know, and then they found out I could speak. So next thing I knew, they had me fly in, you know, to testify on on some of the state anti-smoking bills, which was just at its infancy back then.
00:17:03
Speaker
So it was a very interesting time to be working there. And, you know, self-confessions, I was a smoker back in the day the time. They gave us four free cartons a month. I remember that. Wow.
00:17:16
Speaker
Working for this a trade association? Yeah. you not run some Oh, my gosh. We were representing all of the tobacco manufacturers, all the cigarette makers, smokeless tobacco, the whole nine yards. Wow. And, you know, fighting back on these. ah One of the big issues I was working on was the smoking ban for airplanes.
Legal Career and Founding a Law Firm
00:17:34
Speaker
Now, I'm betting there's virtually nobody listening to this who remembers when you could smoke on airplanes. And even more comically, they had a smoking section in the back and a non-smoking section in the front as if, you know. Extremely extremely comically. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:51
Speaker
And, you know, but I learned a lot about it. And this is kind of, I think, significant as well. One of the things they had me doing was reading epidemiological studies about, you know, that were coming out about smoking hazards and health effects and writing up things, you know, that would go around to the CEOs.
00:18:12
Speaker
And of course, the more I read, the more horrified I got. And ah just before I made a leap, it was, was going to make a leap. Cause I was like, I, I can't really do this anymore. um A guy who had been my boss at TI, at Tobacco Institute, he had gone over to a construction trade group to be their communications director.
00:18:37
Speaker
And three months into his job there, his boss dropped dead. Oh, my gosh. He got promoted into that job, and he reached out to me and said, would you like to come over? you know, and and work for me here. Yeah. And I was like, oh, hell yeah. And it was the American Road and Transportation Builders Association. So now we're into safety land. and they run I was their writer.
00:19:03
Speaker
And they said, well, you're our writer. That means you can write our OSHA comments. So the first comments I ever wrote were on the OSHA has comp standard, which is, you know, a heck of a way to be, you know, dropped into the deep end of the pool. ah And I loved it. I, I was, I ended up, I would, you know, although I was there as the communications person and I was doing a newsletter and I was doing a magazine, you know, whatever, they realized I had a special set of skills. And so they started having me doing government affairs work as well. And,
00:19:38
Speaker
you know, I was lobbying for infrastructure improvements. I mean, that's that's a safety related thing, you know. For sure. I also learned about work zone safety issues. And so I think, and somebody may task me on this, but ah I had developed a relationship with the folks over at ATSA, which, you know, the Transportation Safety Association. um They deal with the flaggers and work zones and all of that. And so we collaborated and ARPA and ATSA ended up putting on the first, I believe, work zone safety conference ever in the States. And i was really proud of that. You know, that was probably around 1987. And, you know, just that and, you know, getting to know more about OSHA and the safety issues, which I have to preface this by saying, when you're working for a business side association, know,
00:20:35
Speaker
They tend to be pushing back. They don't want regulations that are harsh. They don't want enforcement. But it was nothing like we're dealing with today. know It wasn't the scorched earth, let's nuke all of the regs ah that that we' we're dealing with currently. And so...
00:20:55
Speaker
I, would you know, the more I learned about safety and very much self-taught, um the more i was able to help push things in a direction that would be protective, you know, of workers while, you know, ideally not being overly burdensome on employers. And then I made another jump. And so we're now we're talking about four years after I,
00:21:19
Speaker
discovered the safety side of me. I was hired by the National Stone Association. We're getting into mining now. Okay. But it's it was construction aggregate, stone, sand, gravel, cement. That was what they represented. And some of the construction companies obviously are horizontally integrated. And so some of the companies that I worked with at ARPA on the road building, they also were members of National Stone Association. And in fact, you know, that was how they found me and they they recruited me over there. So now I'm full fledged director of government affairs. We've we've left the ah communications and PR stuff in the background. Yeah. And so my portfolio was infrastructure. My portfolio included all labor law, um you know, workplace and and then OSHA and MSHA.
00:22:15
Speaker
And I said, what's an MSHA? And they said, oh, that's the Mine Safety and Health Administration. And, you know, they're very important to our members that, you know, they have jurisdiction over all of these construction aggregate operations. And so you're going to be dealing with both agencies. I said, OK, cool.
00:22:33
Speaker
And God is my witness. My very first day on the job, they said to me, well, you know, part of what you do, we have safety committees and you're going to sit in and take minutes and, you know, use that information, write our comments and blah, blah, blah. And I sit in and it was ah this is 1989 now for those who are want to check historical accuracy. And OSHA was considering.
00:22:57
Speaker
a rule to regulate non-asbestiform minerals in the same manner as asbestos. And, you know, spoiler, ah we were successful in getting OSHA to exclude those from the asbestos rule. So, you know. Wow. A year and a half after I joined, we had a happy ending on that particular issue. But I go into my first meeting, literally my first day. I think I had been there an hour and a half.
00:23:24
Speaker
And there's a guy standing up in front of the room. And he's a certified industrial hygienist and a certified safety professional. And he's with our biggest member company. And he's drawing on a a little chalkboard. And he's talking about aspect ratios and macrophages and, you know, um they're different in our types of analysis of parts of particles and, you know, beavage. And I'm i'm sitting there just horrified you know because i can't spell actinolite tremolite and anthophyllite which are the three things they're dealing with and and somebody nudges me because they see and just right just write atna
00:24:09
Speaker
and i came out of that meeting and i remember i called my boyfriend from my office and tears going i wonder if i could get my old job back Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. But I want to say that that guy who gave that presentation became one of my best mentors and he and i are still in touch today. um he has been, you know, my touchstone on all things silica because he knows everything about everything. But he you know, he was gracious enough to take the time and really walk me through what I needed to know. And he pointed me to, to, you know, things that would help me. And one of the things, um, a month later, i was at my first meeting of the national safety council.
00:24:58
Speaker
like And at that time they had a ah a section called cement quarry and mineral aggregates, which is a mouthful. So we called it the CQ and a section. And that was when I met, you know, ah in addition to the safety committee from my association, all of whom were guys, except for one woman. um And she became a mentor of mine as well. And she was involved with this National Safety Council. She passed away just just a few years ago. But, you know, I can't, you know, thank enough the many people who have passed who were really ah exemplary mentors for me and, you know, personified the whole thing that, you know, there's no such thing as a dumb question, you know.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, Adele, it's really interesting that, you know, when you really dove into the deep end of the pool with health hazards and really significant health hazards, I mean, starting with the tobacco industry and moving all the way into mining in silica and asbestos and, you know, you're dabbling in epidemiology. And mean, talk about self-taught in some of the most complex health hazards that we have. I mean,
00:26:17
Speaker
Yeah, really. Well, it especially for somebody who was like a radio and TV. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thank goodness for those mentors. now that though I took geology as one of my sciences in college. And it's like out of all of the courses I took in college, the radio and TV stuff, that's probably the one I've used the most. I bet. Ironically, you know, um so again, accidental geologist here. But I do love rocks. I do love stones. And, you know, so so even before I started working in that area. Well, rock and roll and but actual stones. Yeah. I say that sometimes kidding, you know, you you picked up on it. I said, you know, like, oh how did you get from this to that? I go, I went from one kind of rock to the other. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, so let's move ahead. happened? How did you manage to get to a certified mind safety and health professional? What, what, what's going on then?
00:27:12
Speaker
Well, um this this actually has some continuity to it. Okay. So I became very active in the National Safety Council, ended up being the chair of the CQMA section. And they had a couple of other mining sections again at the time. And...
00:27:30
Speaker
You know, I love i want to preface this by saying I love, love, love the Safety Council. I greatly appreciate the DSSA award. I'm going to the the Congress this year and I'm speaking twice on different topics. And, you know, I was one of the co-founding members of the women's division that they had back when was the Women's Caucus. And, you know, ah but.
00:27:50
Speaker
Going back to to this, there was a lot of feeling within the mining sections of the council that they weren't offering much for mining people. And MSHA has very unique um responsibilities. They have their own code of federal regulations. They have strict liability. They have mandatory inspections twice a year. They have warrantless search authority.
00:28:13
Speaker
They have personal penalties against the safety managers and, and, you know, other, other supervisors. So a lot of stuff going on with MSHA that OSHA really doesn't have to deal with. And, and,
00:28:26
Speaker
So there there was a stirring within the group that they wanted to form their own organization. And ah the International Society of Mine Safety Professionals was an offshoot of the Safety Council.
00:28:41
Speaker
I remained a member of the Safety Council, but I also... ah became, you know, an active member of ISMSP. And one of the things they did was created a certification exam, um which ISMSP is no more, I want to say that, but it's been taken over by the Society of Mining Engineering, SME. And yeah it's it's a very challenging exam. And these days, it has a lot more engineering in it than it did back when I took it. But
00:29:13
Speaker
As part of of my support for this group, when they said that they were going to offer this this certified mind safety professional certification, I decided to put myself out there and I went through week-long prep course. And then I took the exam and I passed it. So I've recertified a couple of times on that. But I did that in large measure because I felt it was important for there to be a mining sort of mine safety certification that could be recognized. um
00:29:47
Speaker
I believed in the mission of this. And in fact, I ended up being on the committee after I was certified, I might add, when they revised the exam, you know, I i helped develop some of the questions and especially in the legal and the ethics area. And so it's very much, you know,
00:30:02
Speaker
ah ah parallels some of the exams that the the board of certified safety professionals offers but it is not within the BCSP so it it does stand aside from that kind of like the CIH is administered separately you know through our own board and so this has evolved as I said over the years ah but I did that one, as I said, you know, early on, but after I was a lawyer, we haven't gotten to the lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's do that. I'm looking, I'm, I'm watching our time yeah and I'm like, my gosh.
00:30:38
Speaker
I will. yeah for Those you know who might say, well, what about the ASP? Yes. Remember COVID? Remember the, the, the, uh, who can forget it? We let him get home and, you know, we didn't leave our homes for a while. Well, I'm a restless, uh, baby. People who know me know that, you know, I, I hate being stuck doing nothing. Um, even though I was working full time the whole time from home. So I decided this was a good opportunity for me to study up. And I did. And, uh, uh, I sat for the ASP exam as soon as they, uh, Made it available again at our local library. I went in and took it and passed. So that was in, I think, 2021 is when I got the ASP. And I jokingly say i may be the oldest person to have ever sat for and passed the ASP exam. But... Maybe not. There might be some other late bloomers.
00:31:31
Speaker
And as you can tell, I was a late bloomer on law school as well. yeah tell us Tell us about that. How did you manage to go to law school? Why did you go to law school? And then, um spoiler alert, she founded her own firm, too. So please tell us, Adele.
00:31:48
Speaker
OK, well, um first of all, As a kid, I liked to argue. And my mother always used to say, you should be a lawyer. You like to argue. But obviously music and ah you know the creative side of things that took over. But I was always interested in law school. And in the 80s, after I finished my NASTERS, I sat for the SATs and I did pretty well. And this was right when I was engaged and just getting married for the first time. And that's a spoiler will alert there. and
00:32:22
Speaker
So we got married and I said, okay, you know I did well on the SAT. t And he was like, well, you're not going to law school. You know, you've got two stepchildren to take care of. ah oh okay. So I benched that. And then fast forward, as I like to say, after my divorce, um I'm working for the National Stone Association. So, you know, we we've we've caught back up with ourselves here. And I'm reading their employment manual.
00:32:48
Speaker
And here's my my pro tip to everybody out there. Read your company employment manual. Because what I saw was tuition reimbursement. And it was flashing in a blinking light to me as I read that it was 100% tuition reimbursement as long as you had a B or better average.
00:33:09
Speaker
And there were no guardrails. It didn't have to be undergrad or grad school. It didn't have to be related to what you were doing. um And I read this like three times and said, yeah, this really does say what I think it says. So I applied to law schools, got admitted to several, found a couple, including George Washington University, which I did attend, which had an evening program.
00:33:33
Speaker
So I could go part time at night and work full time because I am clinically insane, obviously. Yeah. Then once I had been admitted, i went to the president of the association and I said, I'm i'm invoking the tuition reimbursement they here. I'm going to be going to law school at night, you know, and I'll still be here, you know, five days a week. And of course, he was like apoplectic.
00:33:58
Speaker
Well, Where's is that in the in the manual? Where's that in the handbook? yeah the the The chairman of our board at that time, um who ended up being one of my clients later after I became a lawyer and was literally born on the same day as me.
00:34:15
Speaker
We had gotten to be friends. Somehow we had bonded over that. And so when the president of the association ran to him and he was like, you know, we have to shut this stuff down. um He was like, no, she's right. And so he backed me on it. And I got four years of law school paid for it because it's four years part time.
00:34:32
Speaker
yeah And all I had to pay for were books and fees. Fantastic. Needless to say, I kept that B or better average. you know day I wouldn't lose that. um So that was how I became a lawyer. And It had been my intention to continue working for for the association. And after I passed the bar, you know, first try after I graduated, um came time for my annual review.
00:34:58
Speaker
And the executive vice president tells me I'm getting a five grand raise. I'm like, Really? I'm a lawyer and now. you five Really? And he looked me in the eye and he said, i don't care how many degrees you get. We'll never have a chick as vice president.
00:35:16
Speaker
and And i in my head, oh, no, you did not just say that to me. Time to move on. You know, I had gotten to know people who ah were attorneys and working in the mining field. And literally a week after that, while I was still figuring out how I was going to you know respond, um they called and offered me a job. They were starting an occupational health and safety practice group. at Patton Boggs, which was a big law firm. um
00:35:47
Speaker
And, you know, the starting salary was a fair bit more than I was making. So I left. And ironically, they had to hire two people to replace me. They hired two guys and they started each of them at 10 grand more than I i had been making. And I left after seven years. So, you know, ah the the glass ceiling, i I did manage to get through it, but I had to do it, you know, by leaving. Um, and I did my five years, uh, in hell, as I like to say at the big firm, um, realized that that really wasn't what I wanted for my practice. And so, as you said, I started my own firm in 2001 uh, focused it as a boutique firm on occupational safety and health matters, training, consulting. I am the only attorney, I think in the country who is still an MSHA approved trainer and, uh,
00:36:38
Speaker
I kept that going for 25 years. I grew it up to 10 attorneys and support staff. And then gradually people, some left to go to other firms, some retired. And I was at a crossroads last year, you know, do I close the firm and retire or what? And, you know, like I said, I, I'm not, I don't do well if I'm bored. So, you know, short of so of getting every professional certification there is in the world, I figured I better start working or keep working, I should say. And, ah I've been hired as of last year. Literally, I closed my firm on March 30th, 2025. And April 1st, I started with Littler Mendelssohn, which is the largest employment law firm in the country. But I'm in their occupational safety and health practice group as senior counsel. And I'm heading all of their MSHA practice nationwide, as well as continuing my OSHA practice. So, you know I guess that's a happy ending there, Littler.
00:37:35
Speaker
you know, even though I'm back in a big firm, but, you know, it the has allowed me to continue doing the training and the outreach. You know, I'm still engaged with ASSP. I'm still engaged with National Safety Council. um And I try to mentor, you know, where I can, because that is so incredibly important. I would never have been able to be successful in doing what I've i've done as the career that I've loved the best, you know, other other than maybe playing rock and roll.
00:38:03
Speaker
Of course. Yeah. Adele, you had shared with me the number of fatality cases that where you have been involved in. And it's like, I thought I had a lot.
00:38:17
Speaker
You blew me out of the water by hundreds. and you also talked when we were when we were prepping for this about don't know versus don't care. Will you talk about some of those, you know, the breadth of the cases you've done and what you meant by don't know versus don't care?
00:38:35
Speaker
Sure, sure. um You know, over 30 years now, I've been practicing law. So again, don't try to guess my age. You can probably do it anyway if you listen to the stories I've been telling.
00:38:48
Speaker
But yeah. I've handled over 400 fatalities and I'm handling, you know, ah over a half dozen right now in real time. And some of them are on the OSHA side of the fence. Some of them are on the MSHA side of the fence. Most of them have been, I'd say, you know, probably 65 to 70 percent of them have been on the mining side. um There's a reason that Congress declared it to be an ultra hazardous activity.
00:39:20
Speaker
You know, it remains such in a lot of ways, although I like to say the construction aggregates, you know, is very akin to construction work. But the regulations are different. And in most cases, the EMSHA regulations are more protective.
00:39:36
Speaker
Not always, though. And, you know, I point to a few things like EMSHA's air contaminants standard, they've incorporated by reference the 1973 ACGIH threshold limit values. I mean, that's just insane.
00:39:53
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. so for like For electrical safety, MSHA incorporates by reference the 1967 National Electrical Code. And, you know, nobody would engineer their homes to something like that. But it does point out, you know, the dangers. And, you know, OSHA's guilty of this, too. You know, they have a lot of 1960s standards that they incorporated by reference. And, you know, they're trying to up, they were trying to update some of those. you know,
00:40:23
Speaker
you know you do have to go beyond minimum compliance if you want to keep people safe. And you know having handled so many, I've learned you know a few things. And you know I don't want to paint every employer with the same brush. And I do represent the employers for the most part in and my practice these days. At my own firm, I was also handling some discrimination cases on behalf of the workers, but Littler's practice is strictly management side.
00:40:57
Speaker
You know,
00:41:00
Speaker
when when you're When you're dealing with these after the accident occurs, very often the employer's knee-jerk reaction is we have to figure out a way to blame the victim.
00:41:12
Speaker
And, you know, that doesn't sit well with me. And, you know, I tell my clients it doesn't sit well with OSHA or with MSHA either. And if you want to get them to open up a can of kick-ass on you, you know,
00:41:27
Speaker
Just start off that way. It's their fault. You know, guarantee you're going to have a bad outcome of your inspection. But they do that in part because, you know, they're looking at workers comp and they're trying to set up defenses. And in some cases, in fact, in in way too many cases, ah the person who's died is a contractor.
00:41:50
Speaker
And then you don't have workers' comp as an exclusive remedy. So, you're you know, I'm dealing with this more and more. A lot of companies just are trying to outsource the most hazardous things that they do.
00:42:03
Speaker
And then when the contractors come in, and I'm talking about mines now especially, yeah They don't know that they're on an MSHA site half the time. They don't know that there are different regs that apply to them. you know They may not get the training that they're supposed to get, which you know certainly would you know put them on the right path. They don't understand sometimes that they have to have MSHA training you know and fairly extensive MSHA training completed before they can begin work. um And they assume I've got OSHA 10.
00:42:36
Speaker
I'm good to come on the site. And then, you know, when things go sideways, MSHA, you know, hands out citations and penalties with wild abandon. But, you know,
00:42:50
Speaker
One of the things I have realized, you know, I deal with a lot of smaller companies. I do represent big corporations, too. I want to hasten to say that. But, you know, my my my thing over over, especially when I had my own firm, you know, and and was doing smaller and I could be a little bit more flexible arrangements with them because they needed help. Sure.
00:43:14
Speaker
you know I realized I was, in many cases, the first safety professional that these companies had ever encountered. you know And with OSHA, a company can go its entire business life without ever encountering OSHA. I like to say, if you if you don't harm anybody and you don't piss off your employees, you're not going to see OSHA.
00:43:36
Speaker
you know and Unless you're caught up in the net like the dolphin with the tuna, you're you know, on somebody else's work site and they have something catastrophic occur, you know, and OSHA shows up. But with MSHA, they're going to be there twice a year surface and four times a year underground, whether you need it or not. Now, you know, i i I say only half jokingly, you know, my MSHA clients are the gift that keeps on giving because I know they're going to continue to be inspected. Whereas a lot of my OSHA work with a company maybe once and done. But while I'm working with them,
00:44:09
Speaker
I have a bit of a bully pulpit and i get to look at their safety culture and their safety programs and policies, you know, and training warts and all. and you know, some companies are doing everything right.
00:44:25
Speaker
They don't need, you know, they don't need my advice other than, you know, me negotiating on their behalf. And I like to to emphasize, you know, bad things can happen to good companies. Right.
00:44:36
Speaker
Yes, of course. Yeah, I've seen it. I've seen it too. Absolutely. And you're taking the opportunity to educate people where where you can to make the workplace better. You had also mentioned you believe in holistic settlements. Talk about that.
00:44:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean... A lot of times people have the mistaken belief that if OSHA or MSHA find you, that that money goes right back into their pocket.
Advocacy in Safety and Legacy Plans
00:45:01
Speaker
You know I've had people say that to my face, you know, um i mean some of them even think that the inspectors get, you know, a kickback on it. Oh yeah. I've heard that so many times. yeah Yeah. Let's, let's correct that misconception. Exactly. Because the OSHA or the MSHA penalties, that goes into the deep black hole that is known as the U S treasury.
00:45:21
Speaker
And, you know, that money may end up being, you know, reappropriated for OSHA or MSHA in some way or but, you know, they've been cutting funding for the agencies. And so what I have learned is when you're dealing with them in negotiations,
00:45:36
Speaker
What they care about is improving safety. They don't really care about the amount of money. And, you know, maybe maybe I'm giving away tips here, though. No, the the agency. No, i agree I agree with that. And I'll i'll share my experience on the on the state government side. Please finish. Yeah.
00:45:53
Speaker
so So when you come to, whether I'm dealing with ah the district, there the area manager at OSHA, ah or I'm dealing with an attorney from the solicitor's office, hey ah at the ah solicitor's office, or MSHA has a thing called CLRs, Conference and Litigation Representatives, who are not lawyers, but they play one on TV and yeah they they represent the agency in a lot of the smaller matters. Yeah.
00:46:18
Speaker
I can go to them and say, you know, reduce the penalties, but we will do this instead for a comparable amount of money. We will, you know, get all of our supervisors to have the OSHA 30 course or, you know, we will, you know, buy all new fall protection equipment. Or, you know, we will, you know, bring in a third party auditor and make our audits available to you, you know, have two of them done in the next year. um And, you know, we'll share the the results with you. And, you know, ah sometimes it's buying new devices. Right now I'm working with a client and we're trying to figure out how to guard something that does not come guarded from the manufacturer, but it has been responsible for some amputations. So yeah You know, I what I did in that case, you know, going back a little bit on it was I found the guy who chairs the the ANSI guarding committee and we brought him in with the manufacturer to look at, you know, how can this machine be modified and you know really designed.
00:47:25
Speaker
you know It took collaboration between the employer and the manufacturer and bring you know paying to bring this third-party expert on guarding in. And as a result, changes are being made now and in new additions of this machine. And in the meantime, you know were we're working on ah ways to keep the workers safe. to yeah Yeah, beyond beyond the one event that happened, you're looking into the future to protect people. And, and you know, being a safety professional who is an attorney, you know, I do certainly know not to get out of my wheelhouse. You know, I'm i'm not go I'm not going to try to do an ergonomics reconfiguration of anybody's workplace. Right. You'll find the right people. Yeah, I know that how to find the right people. And the stuff that I do know, I can help them with where they, you know, while they've got me on the clock anyway, you know, let's let's figure out. Let's let's design a silica sampling program for you, you know, its for your operation. that's right And, you know, yes, you're going to bring somebody in from the outside to do the sampling, but I can at least get you you know get a running start on it. yeah And silica is an area I have done quite a bit of work all the way back.
00:48:32
Speaker
To the American road builders back in the 80s, you know, silica was an issue then. And, you know, that's something I have been working on, you know, throughout, throughout. I've even had peer reviewed papers published on silica now. who Who would have thought a rock and roll DJ have been and that Exactly. Yeah. I mean, Adele, I think what you're sharing is really important. And I don't I don't think it's I think it's I think it's smart for us to be sharing the the ways in which employers can work on settlement agreements with with agencies like MSHA and OSHA. I did the same thing. You know, I.
00:49:09
Speaker
I worked for state OSHA in Minnesota, and you were mentioning earlier about, you know, the misconception and the urban myths that people believe that investigators are lining their pockets with the, you know, the fines that they collect or that the or that the agency itself is. And um in in state government in Minnesota specifically, every year at the beginning of the inspection year, I would ask, where is the fine money going this year? And I would specifically share that with employers to dispel those myths. So in my state, some years the money would go into the general fund. And some years it would go to workers' compensation. And so I would always ask, you know, like, especially on the years that it went to workers' compensation, that went for employees or workers that were injured that whose employers didn't
00:50:02
Speaker
have workers' compensation insurance. And, you know, I was always careful to explain, you know, it's not going to line anybody's pockets. It's going to this, this year, and here's what it's used for. And like you, um always would encourage employers to contest their citations. And they'd look at me and they'd go, what? But like, this is legit. Like you found stuff. And I said, i know, but what if you could take the money instead of paying, you know, the fine, or all of the fine, you could put that back into your program, you could put that into improving this, you could put that into fall protection, like you're saying, or to a study or, you know, to, to help the greater good and including your workplace. And so, you know, you and i doing the same things you were doing and on one side, and I was doing it from the other. yeah and And one thing I do want to note is you know, you mentioned that you worked for the state OSHA and there are 22 states plus the territories that that do run their own state OSHA programs.
00:51:03
Speaker
I find that they are much easier to work with overall than I might carve Cal OSHA out of that. OK, but, i ah you know, Cal OSHA is a pure life form and that we have Cal OSHA experts at my firm and I don't have to. you know, be studying up on all of their unique rules, ah you know, in in the moment all the time anymore. But but generally, you know, i I was based in Maryland with my firm. So I had Maryland OSHA, i had Virginia OSHA that I dealt with regularly, as well as, you know, other ones around the country.
00:51:35
Speaker
And, you know, to your point, I think they have more flexibility at the state level to really develop kind of a correlation between the monies they collect from from citation revenue and putting it back into things. I know Maryland OSHA. has a great training and consultation program. They have a wonderful library. Back when people were using videos of videos you could borrow, they held a number of training courses every year for free for everybody in the state. And I attended them because I wanted to vet what the information that they were handing out would be. And not only were these good courses, but when they'd recognize me being there, they'd bring me in to So sorry to add it to the conversation. And that was always fun. Yeah.
00:52:22
Speaker
But federal OSHA, you know, their hands are tied. That money is going to be going into the Treasury. Sure. It doesn't mean, though, that they won't make deals with you, and they will. The the one thing, um in in previous administrations, I saw a lot more corporate-wide settlement agreement approaches to things where ah if OSHA was going to give you, federal OSHA, I'm talking about, was going to give you a big reduction in penalties, they wanted to see you roll things out across the board, you know, nationally, across your company. makes sense. And, you know, those CSAs usually included... adopting ah safety and health management program or, you know, I2P2, some people call it.
00:53:05
Speaker
And I'm not seeing that so far, at least in in this ah this go around of the Trump administration. yeah But, you know, we have to be mindful. There's legislation pending right now to abolish OSHA. It's H.R. 86. And And that's the kind of stuff that can be, be so you know, attached to one of these must pass bills. ah The sponsor of it is Congressman Andy Biggs from Arizona. He's running ah now for ah ah the governor of Arizona.
00:53:37
Speaker
You know, he wins. but what's that going to do to excuse What's that going to do to Arizona's state program you know Right. Right.
00:53:50
Speaker
and for years i for for twenty five years i was the national lobbyist for the american society of safety professionals um That was, you know, one of the jobs I had as ah ah as an attorney. and you know, I was able to walk into Democratic offices and Republican offices. We testified before Congress probably a half a dozen times while I was their lobbyist. And half the time we were invited by the Republicans, half the time we were invited by the Democrats. And
00:54:21
Speaker
It really pains me to see safety now becoming, you know, again, one of these politicized topics that we have. And, you know, the latest things that maybe people aren't aware of, but but should be, um is that the Occupational Safety and Health Review Commission, or OSHREC, is down to one commissioner. It can no longer conduct business. It cannot approve any motions to reopen. It cannot accept any appeals. Because i don't have a quorum with one human being. They do not have a quorum with one. And on the the mining side, the Federal Mine Safety and Health Review Commission, which has five members typically, they are now down to three members because President Trump in May, over a weekend by email, removed one of the sitting commissioners who had been appointed and Senate-confirmed by President Biden, and who was supposed to have been in in office there until 2028. So of course he's suing the agency. But this is setting up um for the Supreme Court a revisit to a decision most people on here probably won't care about called Jansky. But the issue saying that if a matter could be tried in common law, then there should not be an independent adjudicatory agency within the federal government. And their target was the Securities and Exchange Commission. But they're going to use that same theory as a basis to get rid of OSHRIC and FEMSRIC potentially.
00:55:53
Speaker
If that happens... Boy, or is litigating an OSHA case going to be expensive because you're going to have to put a jury trial on in your local court and you're going to be trying it to a jury that has no expertise in this area. yeah You know, our ALJs on OSHRIC and FEMSRIC and the commissioners, they they are subject matter experts.
00:56:13
Speaker
on on safety and health. um We have that issue at the state level in Maryland. um Things are heard by administrative law judges in our Office of Administrative Hearings. And one day they're hearing a child abuse case and the next day it's a a nurse's licensure case. And, you know, the next it's a, you know, some kind of Boundary case. And then we walk in and we're talking about trenching and excavation. oh my And they didn't have a clue as to what any of the terminology means. Exactly. so what is It's always an uphill battle yeah um fighting these cases if you have to go to trial in these state
00:56:52
Speaker
courts And sometimes the appeals are, I've had to do that to the to the circuit court of appeals in Prince George's County, Maryland. And, you know, you're now you're dealing with judges who are mostly handling divorces, you know, so. All a sudden you're talking occupational health and safety. Yeah, Adele, as we wind up our time today, there's two things I wanted to ask you. um One is, you know, this topic that we're talking about right now in terms of staying current and knowing what's happening um legislatively with um and on the stand you know on the standards front, what's changing. People may wonder, like, gosh, how does she... I mean, you're an attorney, obviously, so you you have your finger on this. But if people want to know like kind of a basic place to go on the web where they can pay attention to what's changing, could you share that with with the listeners? And then number two, I wanted to close by asking you about, you know, legacy as you see it for yourself right now in the state of the profession. So could you take one and then the other?
00:57:59
Speaker
Sure. Well, in terms of how to stay current, you know, aside from the usual subscriptions to, you know, the ah fairly costly publications that are out there, um a few a few things I'll mention. One is ah a newsletter, which is free, called Confined Space.
00:58:19
Speaker
That's done by Jordan Marib, who was the number two person at OSHA. He worked under David Michaels there. And before that, he was the Democratic staffer for about 20 years on the house occupational say or excuse the House Education and Labor Committee.
00:58:36
Speaker
And he puts out a weekly newsletter that has you know a ton of current information in it. Of course, I'll be self-serving and say, you know, if you go to littler.com, we tend to post a lot of things in this area as well. And we have newsletters that you can subscribe to, you know, that are free.
00:58:54
Speaker
In addition, um you know, I recommend ah looking at if you are a member of the National Safety Council, if you're a member of the American Society of Safety Professionals or the American Industrial Hygiene Association,
00:59:08
Speaker
They all have government affairs representatives and they, you know, stay pretty much abreast of that. So, um you know, the the the national posts that information on their websites. If you belong to a regional chapter, i I'm the past CEO of the Chesapeake Region Safety Council, which was, ah you know, covered five states for the National Safety Council. You know, ah we would put information out to our members. And of course, LinkedIn, you know, if if you follow, these safety organizations follow me on LinkedIn. I, I post a lot of this stuff too. Um, okay you know, but, but your associations, you know, there is a power in association, whether it is a road builders association or a mining association, uh, or manufacturers association, or just your chambers of commerce. Um, you know, they will keep you attuned to what's going on. Um, if you, uh,
01:00:06
Speaker
you know, are affiliated with or interested in unions. Those are places. And the Center for prevention for Protection of Workers' Rights, CPWR, they do a lot of educational programs. And again, they they have a wealth of information. So these are some of the sources, you know, I'm looking at, you know, pretty much on a daily or weekly basis myself to stay abreast of what's going on.
01:00:28
Speaker
Thank you, Adele. Those are great. Yeah. Now, in terms of your question about ah my legacy, um I will say when I went over to Littler last year, it was with an eye toward that. um I am getting older, although I i refuse to admit And and I didn't want to just close my firm. You know, the clients I was dealing with, I've had relationships with in some cases for 25 or 30 years. And so I wanted them to have a soft landing, you know, where I could continue to to work on their matters. But also with Littler, they gave me really a great opportunity, which is to be their MSHA maven. And so now one of the things I'm doing is teaching
01:01:17
Speaker
associates at Littler around the country. What is an MSHA? You know, back I started in 1989, what's an MSHA? And, you know, trying to share, ah you know, how to litigate these cases, because it is so different from OSHA. So that, then you know, I'm training the next generation of MSHA lawyers now.
01:01:36
Speaker
You know, that is part of it. um I still try to give back. I spoke, you know, at the American Bar Association's Occupational Safety and Health Conference this year. I regularly do the Energy and Mineral Law Foundation's MSHA conference. i I teach a mine safety law program.
01:01:53
Speaker
ah workshop a couple of times a year through another organization. um And I speak at a lot of conferences, as as you probably know, where I can share some of this information. um You know, I'm working now on, I'm a little late, but i am i've I've co-authored ah several of the books that ASSP publishes, the Safety Professionals Handbook being one of them. And construction safety management and engineering. I have three chapters in there and I'm working on wrapping up the the update of those chapters for the third edition. I write a column on mine safety for Rock Products Magazine. So, you know, I'm i'm trying to just continue to be to share information. i was a mentor through the ASSP Women in Safety Excellence program for quite a few years and Also with this National Safety Council, I'm very active in their women's division.
01:02:52
Speaker
So, you know, I guess that's really my my legacy would be, is you know, she she she knew her music, could put together a darn good song list with wonderful segues and she saved some lives. You know, that's that's really my goal.
01:03:08
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that's fantastic. Fantastic, Adele. Thank you so much. What a generous amount of time you have given us today. And what a story.
01:03:20
Speaker
Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be able to um have your story archived here with the Accidental Safety Pro. And thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time today.
01:03:31
Speaker
Well, thank you. And everybody stay safe, stay healthy and rock and roll. That's right. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is the core of our practice.
01:03:51
Speaker
If you aren't subscribed and you want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. Or if you prefer, you can read the transcript and listen to at hsi.com.
01:04:04
Speaker
We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more safety professionals like Adele and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.