Transcript
Speaker: This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded August 21st, 2026. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer. And today we're talking about something that doesn't isn't always covered in formal EHS education, yet it can have a tremendous impact on our ability to protect workers and improve workplace safety. And that is safety budgets. Whether you've been handed responsibility for a multi-million dollar budget or you're trying to secure funding for your very first safety initiative, you've likely experienced the challenge of translating safety needs into budget priorities. We know the value of preventing injuries, reducing risk, and investing in people. The challenge is helping others see and understand that value too.
Speaker: Recently, my guest and I presented a webinar called the EHS Budget Playbook, Turn Safety Needs into Budget Wins. During that conversation, attendees asked thoughtful questions about funding challenges, executive buy-in, grants, employee engagement, and what to do when the answer to your safety request is simply no.
Speaker: Those questions inspired today's conversation. My guest today is John Lees-Mackey. John is Senior Director of Environmental Health and Safety at Apogee Enterprises. John has extensive experience helping organizations connect safety initiatives with budget objectives and making the case for investments that improve worker well-being while supporting business success. He's also someone who understands that great safety ideas don't automatically receive funding and that the ability to communicate business value is increasingly important for safety professionals. And here's a fun fact. John and I went to the same college to earn our Master of Industrial Safety degrees, though not at the same time. We're both from Minnesota and have the accents to prove it.
Speaker: John, thanks for being here. Thanks, Jill. Happy to be here. i'm Excited to continue this conversation that we had during the webinar. um One of the things that I thought I kind of took through, I've some people reach out through LinkedIn and talk about how much they enjoyed the podcast. And one of the things that I, theme that kind of runs through that is, you know, why do you think so many safety professionals feel unprepared when they suddenly expected to create and and defend a budget?
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, it's it's a lot about what I said in the in the opening, right? Like you and i went to the same university and and we didn't talk about this stuff. There wasn't like a specific course that was giving us the tools we needed to even have like a basic business acumen um toolkit, you know, like even the budgeting language or accounting language. Yeah. That just was non-existent in in our education. i don't know if that's true for all EHS degrees, but it certainly wasn't true in in our program.
Speaker: um And, you know, I think we are so focused on regulations that maybe our training just left out some of those things that someone with maybe a business degree just comes with. What do you think?
Speaker: Yeah, I i agree. we And we had, I thought one of the greatest things that might've been a difference between when I went through the program and when you went through the program, I thought one of the greatest things we did is is we had a whole semester course on soft skills, right? And you and I have talked and as you look across those ones, the most successful EHS professionals are the ones that can take those soft skills. But as we sit now and look and after doing the webinar, I was like,
Speaker: Man, we should have had a a class on you know economics or finance of you know business as well to be able to add to that toolkit that we could use to be even further successful in the in the profession.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure. it um And John, I have pitched this particular topic to our to our grad program and we can we're welcome to present it as guest speakers. And so we can hopefully help the next generation a little bit. Yeah, I mean, that'd be great to be able to to push and say, hey, this this is a big deal more than just, you know, John and Jill coming in and talking, you know future um programs should consider adding this in as part of the cur curriculum.
Speaker: Right, right. Yeah. So John, when you, when you got into the real world in air quotes, what was your first experience building a budget? So from ah a budget standpoint, I had a little bit in consulting. So I started my career and you know moved from the Duluth program down to Southern California, which in itself was a culture shock.
Speaker: But with some first clients, as I started a you know, hey, you're going work on projects. You know, here, go and do this. And you're a pump jockey, more or less. The more I got into it, the more it's like, OK, we'll put a, but you know, they want to do this, put a budget together you know this new sampling or or this. And so it was, you know, I got to do a little bit of, okay, here's my, my run rate. Here's what I'm going to need for my manager to review my report and get it out. And then here's our standard up charts and stuff like that. But that was for somebody else to like, I put the, but you know I put a quote together and handed it to him. It wasn't me actually budgeting anything.
Speaker: I would say the first experience I had that is is when i when I moved to Honeywell and actually was you know kind of in charge of my own site. I referenced it a little bit in the webinar of you know putting together for the guardrail system.
Speaker: It was one of the first ones that I i kind of did and said, hey, it was a finding that we had from not only ah an internal corporate audit, but we're also working on going to OSHA VPP.
Speaker: And so as part of that, it was recommended, hey, you know you have work here. It's easier than than tie off points. And and so going and asking you know leadership and saying, hey, we need tens of thousands of dollars to put this in. And we looked at, you know is that a capital expense? Is that ah you know an operating expense?
Speaker: How can we transition and get this cost in? And we kind of joked a little bit that we piecemealed it early on. And we you know we bought sections and chunks until there was a chance where we were like, all right, we're getting close to the end. Let's put a CapEx project in, put a capital request in for that that last chunk and just get it done.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about my first request as well. And my first request, ironically, was also about a guardrail system. And I got a hard no from the, I was working at a medical clinic system at the time.
Speaker: And the roof needed a guardrail system for some of the maintenance activities that happened on the on the roof. And I put together what I thought was a really great request. And when I say what I thought was a great request, I did it based on having been an investigator with OSHA. So I built like a case like I would that the attorneys general would have liked.
Speaker: not an administrator. And I got a flat out no. Like, I don't see any other guardrails on any other roofs around this area. So no, go away, safety lady. And so the next time i needed to ask for money for something,
Speaker: I learned really quickly that collaborating with people who had budgets was my fastest way to win. And so the next thing in that same um place of employment was a ah major hazardous waste initiative and, you know, doing a lot of evaluations on who is going to be our hauler. gosh, we can't put everything into a red sharps container. We actually have met other other types of hazardous waste here and doing this whole project. and and um I found out that the purchasing manager could be an ally of mine because she was actually in charge of ordering things like waste containers.
Speaker: And so she and I took the project on together and we got that funded and really transformed the way that they were disposing of all types of waste in this massive clinic system. And so collaborators were my were my help aid at that time.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think, you know, if we look at like, what are the early mistakes we made starting with budgets? It's yeah not collaborating or collaborating right away. Right. It's it's going, you know, being naive and going up there and like, well, it's a, you know, it's a compliance request. We have to we have to do this. Right. And walking up and just thinking that just leaning on a regulation ah is like is going to give you the yes you need right away.
Speaker: I'd say that's probably the biggest mistake. young professionals probably make when it comes to asking for money for the first time. a hundred percent Because we, yeah, it's our it's our hearts of for justice for people and that why wouldn't anybody? It's the right thing. It's the compliance thing. Yeah. Yeah. yeah and and And the other of one is just coming with one solution, right? And I'm sure you did the same thing. Like when I came with the guardrail system, yeah right? It was like, well, you know, we can rent, there are temporary or those, um you know, the different stanchions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the stanchions you can do are the the fall protection speeds, we can tie off and put them in a harness. And yeah, that's more difficult and it's more time consuming. And now we have to rely on humans and workers to do the right thing every single time instead of cutting the corner and thinking, hey, I'm just going out to replace the filters in that. Yeah.
Speaker: right In that HVAC system, I can walk out there without you know guardrails or tying off. And so not coming and having understanding those second, third options before you get out there, hi definitely those some of those early mistakes.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. In the webinar, we talked a lot about speaking the language of finance, um learning that language. Why do you think that's so important? I mean, I know that's a rhetorical question, but for our listening audience, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, to be able to go in and to be able to speak what they're speaking and understand where they're coming from and how stuff fits in the budget gives you that kind of reputable spot at the table to have it to start having the discussion. Right. It's it's, you know,
Speaker: As ah an analogy, it's moving from the kids table up to the adult table and not talking about kid things once you get there. yeah And so understanding their language, their vernacular, you know their the jargon that they use um goes a long way into then getting a serious look at the table when it comes to saying, all right, now I need to ask for money. I need to be able to discuss this and and be able to discuss it professionally in a way that they're going understand.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. One of the things that we put together for the webinar um that I'm sure Emily, our producer, will be putting in the show notes for this podcast are some of the resources that we created. And one of them is accounting terms 101, like literally the terms that we've heard most often um from finance teams and leadership teams. to help build that vernacular for you. So we we created like just literally a definition sheet so you can so you can teach yourself and learn that.
Speaker: Yeah. And I would, you know, to second that as you're starting to get in and and know that maybe, Hey, as I'm starting to grow in my EHS career, I'm going to need to do this. Asking for mentorships, asking, you know, your finance people, Hey, can I spend time? do you mind if i I, have an opening, can I sit in that budget meeting and listen and take notes?
Speaker: and then when you get out, ask the questions, well, Hey, you guys mentioned that word. What is, what does that mean? What is depreciation? What is you know, um EBITDA, right? Earnings before income taxes, right? And in understanding where those words are and what they come from just better helps build that back into your career to be able to slide between those different professions and and talk the language.
Speaker: Yeah. and you know And I think some of the things that are at the very basics that you know our profession needs to understand is that there are budget cycles. You know, there are, you know, the the annual budget that's put together, the quarterly, the monthly, you know, the ways in which finance committee or finance teams are looking at budgets ah might not be something we've ever considered. So being able to ask, like, what's the cadence here?
Speaker: So, you know, where you can plug yourself in. And then understanding, you know, if you do get to that section where you do get a budget, understanding how to use it effectively and that what you might think in your personal budget is a good idea sometimes isn't always the best idea when it comes to your business budget.
Speaker: And so, i mean, you never want to completely overblow and spend your budget. I mean, you have a ah set amount of money, but I was taught ah from one of my mentors early on is understand where the business is and that you know your budget is probably a lot less than the operations budget and in those various things.
Speaker: And it's okay to spend 103% your budget or or depending on the size of your company, of your budget. Because if you're like, well, going to save money and and I'll skimp on this and you only spend 90% of the budget, what do you think is going to happen next to year, Jill?
Speaker: Yeah, right. You're only going to get that much. You're only going to get 90% and that's now your 100%. Well, huh you didn't, okay. You didn't need all your budget. You didn't need all that money. Well, we're just going to recycle it back into somewhere else. That's right. If you, if you're lucky enough to get money, use it. Yes. Yeah. um John, in your experience, what do you think makes finance leaders trust an EHS professional?
Speaker: Asking questions, understanding, following up, using the forms that they have. Right. um Those are the getting that buy in and maybe back to that, the soft skills that we talked about a little earlier is Asking questions, having options, doing the research, right? and Being willing to step into their world and do it the way they want and not being that, you know, that safety cop that, you know, pounds their hand on the desk and says, well, we have to buy this because this regulation says so.
Speaker: And not being willing to have those conversations and and be on a true collaborative basis. Right. yeah We want these never want to be able to make decisions in a vacuum.
Speaker: But you also don't want to force down finances throat like, well, you have to do because I said so. That immediately will turn off the group and and kind of end that collaboration that's there.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. You know, you, you had pointed out before about, you know, can I sit in a but budget meeting and just take notes? And if someone's like, Oh, I don't know, that sounds like I'm going to get a no on that. Or maybe you ask and you do get a no. Another way to find out like what, like, how do they set these things up? Like, what are other leaders asking for,
Speaker: That's another opportunity for a collaborator. So maybe you go to an operations person or a purchasing person or someone within your organization. Maybe it's your ah HR department and say, hey, I don't have any insight into how budgeting is done here and like the sort of key elements and areas that you present from your seat. Can you teach me how you do yours so that I don't walk in cold and am not playing by the same the same rules?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. I think that's definitely a great if if you if you don't get you know invited or you get that you know stiff arm for the finance, going to the other people that have budgets and collaborating and in operations is typically the one that we most likely fall into. And in you know asking that group like, hey, help me understand how you get your budget and how that's aligned. I i think that's a fantastic idea um to just keep looking for opportunities to get in the get your foot in the door and get that understanding started.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. okay
Speaker: So as we look at that and and we, you know, in your experience, when we frame those requests as activities instead of business outcomes, and we've kind of talked about that, you know i kind of alluded to that, Hey, we have to do this because it's just, it's a requirement. It's a, it's a regulation.
Speaker: um How near experiences, you framing it as an activity and not just an outcome or
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about the the first time that I asked for, the the first time that i I successfully on my own asked for budget. It was for software to be able to get training done.
Speaker: um and to be able to record injuries and illnesses on something that wasn't a three ring binder, because that's literally how it had been done when I walked in the door. and And I mean, I couldn't believe it. um and And so i i made the case for um I made the case for like, here's where here's the current state. This is where we are right now. We're we're out of compliance. So I did I did start with that compliance piece. And and then I walked through like how that out of compliance was.
Speaker: equating to dollars spent in terms of workers' compensation expenses. And I did a really granular breakdown. You know, like in this facility, it's costing us this. Our highest number, you know, the money, we're spending the most money on this type of injury. We have the highest frequency of this. And I connected that all back to training And i really said, I think I can reduce these workers' compensation expenses if we can put these sort of things in play.
Speaker: And um miraculously, though, my manager at the time said, Jill, you're going to get a no. Like, expect a no You're going to get a no. They said yes.
Speaker: And he couldn't believe it. He's like, I've never, i've i I mean, this is a room of like, I don't know, I think there were 15 liters in a room it was really nerve-wracking and i made the pitch and they said yes and then a couple months they they said we're gonna say yes but you've got to come back and show us the return on this investment yep And so I'm like, okay, so I did. And when I came back, I was able to say, okay, on average, we'd been spending about a million and a half on workers' compensation.
Speaker: And now we've spent $725,000. And they said, keep going. And what how much more of a return can you get us in a couple more months?
Speaker: Yeah, that's that's fantastic. And that's that's one of the harder ones to do. like For that to be your first big win is amazing. Because a lot of times it's that, hey, it's going to save us on injuries and we're comp.
Speaker: It's really hard to take a guess and say... Even if I get one, even if we eliminate one, right it's going to save us this much money. um It's a little easier. Like in in my first big example, um you know when I was on my own. So at Honeywell, i was you know I was in part of the group. goes at ah you know I was a senior EHS engineer, but I wasn't the manager and and you know asking for some of the big stuff. The first time on my own, had a little bit easier of a route where it was ah a waste
Speaker: operation And so we were sending these drums off that were essentially soapy water at $150 a drum or something like that. And i said, well, we can just apply. you know we can spend twitter bucks apply for a um a discharge industrial discharge license, we can then, ah you know, we'll need just simple ah pH neutralization on this and we should be able to to dump it down with our, down our industrial waste rate.
Speaker: And that had an like an immediate payback, right? I, I spent, you know, I can spend, you know, maybe I think we spent $75,000 the, ah on just a small Elementary neutralization system.
Speaker: We figured out a way, you know, some electronic pumps to move it from, you know, what it was going into neutralize it and then down our, our industrial way stream. And so that it is, that is an easy return on investment. Cause I could say, yeah all right, you know, we're going to spend this on the pumps. We're gonna spend this on the, the neutralization unit. to spend this on our, um, initial, uh,
Speaker: initial application in our permit, and then we can just dump it. And then we're, we're immediately eliminating any of the, uh, any of the costs of, of spending on the waste. And then that was, that was kind of like quick and easy, um, for an ah ROI to show, but yours is far more impressive on the, the injury side is always the hardest one is to say, well, we're going to reduce injuries and that's going relate back to these work comps. Cause it's more of cost avoidance than it is, um,
Speaker: ah You know, yeah in a true ah ROI, right? Yeah, it was it was many years into my career that I had that win. and And it was a lot of work like I I hand managed every single incident that came in. And there wasn't, you know, my phone was on 24 seven.
Speaker: And any, anything, any dust that came into somebody's eye, i was getting a phone call about it. And I was hand managing things so they didn't turn into catastrophes.
Speaker: And it really paid off. I mean, i know not everybody can do that. And that was a laborious job. Also, I love that job. But, um... Yeah, that that's that's part of it. I made the commitment and I'm like, damn it, I'm going make sure that happens.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. yeah And talking about and understanding you know those ah ROIs and you know cost avoidance versus um you know the injury prevention and regulatory exposure and understanding all of those pieces, you can bring all of those in.
Speaker: um Just understanding that with some people they'll hit and others they won't. That's right. And the more you can put into that and and have sounds like, you know, like you talked about getting super granular, the more detail you can put into that, the more likely ah you are going to gonna have success in that meeting.
Speaker: Yeah. And, you know, and sometimes the the regulatory piece is going to come back around. So like you might get a no initially, but you might get a yes later. I'm I'm thinking about um I had a situation in the clinic system, medical clinic system that I was working in where we had a mercury spill.
Speaker: And this is when, um for anyone who's ah maybe a little bit older and has ever had their blood pressure taken with one of those blood pressure c cups that hung on the wall that had the mercury sphygno-manometer, that's not how you pronounce it, but it's a fun way to say it, that it was mercury-filled one. That's how blood pressures were taken a long time ago. And so the clinic system I was in had those in every single facility everywhere. And we had a patient in a an exam room that pumped, pumped, pumped up until that device, until the mercury spilled out the top.
Speaker: And mercury can neither be you know created nor destroyed. And it never goes away. And I found out about the spill a couple of days after it had happened. And I found out that the contracted housekeeping company used their simple vacuum to vacuum it up. well ah Which spread mercury everywhere.
Speaker: And also now the vacuum cleaner was hazardous waste. And exposed all kinds of people. And I'm like, holy cats, this is terrible. We have to do an actual we have to do an actual formal cleanup here.
Speaker: and And we did. I got budget for that because you know I was able to prove that this is a neurotoxin. This is really dangerous. We have to you know clean several rooms on all sides of this particular room, blah blah blah, blah, blah, do all that stuff. And at the time I was getting that budget to be able to pay for that cleanup, I said, let's work on a project to eliminate all mercury in the system.
Speaker: Like, let's never do this again. This is dangerous. There's safer ways to be able to measure people's blood pressures in the modern era. And I was told, no, that's never going to happen again. What are the chances? What are the chances?
Speaker: couple months later, happened again at a different site. And so by that time, the cost of two massive cleanups started to get the attention of the finance team who went,
Speaker: air maybe it's time to talk about her idea about getting rid of all the mercury site-wide. And so I went back to my purchasing manager. She and I started initiative. We got rid of all the mercury in the place. So, you know, again, the ah ah ROI wasn't apparent at the time until the second cleanup tipped the financial scales. And then we were able to do, you know, an actual engineering control method to to eliminate the hazards.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great example. It's funny on the radio the other day, they were talking about Victorian terms um and what they meant. And Matt is a Hatter came up or yeah Matt Hatter from Alice in Wonderland. And they they talked about mercury exposure for people that used to, they used to use mercury to um turn the animal fur into felt to make hats back in the day. It was so just your story. Just got to remind me of what was brought up on the radio the other day.
Speaker: Yeah, when i when I presented to the physicians, because I needed to present to the physicians as well, I used that mad as a hatter story. And then also mercury pills were used, like people actually ingested them and they called them blue mass pills.
Speaker: And it was to help people with indigestion problems. So like Abraham Lincoln took blue mass pills, Lewis and Clark took blue mass pills and And the way that we were able to track Lewis and Clark's journey is through the latrines. Let's use that word.
Speaker: Yeah. um Because they were taking Mercury and we were able to track where they had been because Mercury can't be destroyed. Yeah. Yeah. interesting Anyway, anyway, we just did a little history lesson here. All right. Back to, back to budget and money. Yeah. So, so we've talked about some great examples of where it's easy to show those return on investments.
Speaker: What about the ones where it has to be more, where you have to put a value on retention or morale or safety culture. Like, Hey, this is just good money to spend.
Speaker: Happy employees are typically safer. Turn in less injuries are are more conscious. Any approaches that you've seen across your year profession or or the number of people you've talked to through this, this podcast of how do you put a number on that? And how do you sell safety when it, when it's based merely on culture?
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: I think that's the hardest nut to crack. It is. i we're We're going through one a little bit right now um We've done in in you know and in my current role, we're we're rolling out some signs that I you know i stole the idea through through previous roles where we're doing a ah safety commitment sign.
Speaker: Right. And the sign says, Hey, we believe, you know, uh, our employees are, are the core of our business and safety is number one. And, um, all accidents are preventable. And so we're going to do, we're doing some kickoffs and and we put our signature to that sign. Right. and And I get, got some pushback of like, Hey, this is a little fluff and, um, you know, is this the right money to spend? And, um, but we, we have a great group of leaders at the top that I work with that are fantastic and are are pulling in and truly believe,
Speaker: In that sometimes the culture stuff, you know will, will pay dividends down the road. And so we're going through a big deal we're, we're purchasing these signs and and we get some, um some gray Sharpies and we're going to do events and some giveaways and be able to talk about safety and show our commitment and put your name to it and actually, sign ah sign the pledges that get hung up and in the entryways and for for customers and visitors and everybody to see.
Speaker: But it's not always easy if you're spending that kind of money or or getting good leadership approval on those types of activities. Yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking about a conversation i had at the ASSP conference this year with a fellow safety professional in California who works for a major utility company. And that utility company was experiencing a really alarming level of employees dying by suicide.
Speaker: and he pitched to his leadership team um some i'm and I'm going to use a loose term here, mindfulness practices and conversations, vulnerable conversations with employees on a regular basis.
Speaker: about their lives, about their challenges. And he's been successfully meeting with employees, talking about what are their stresses in life and how can we be helpful and what can you do to help yourself and teaching some real practical tools on, you know, calming the central nervous system, offering tools to people, offering community to people.
Speaker: And he's, they're they're seeing a great impact and a downturn in um and self-harm and death by suicide. And i've i've so I've talked to another leader who is also a guest on the podcast a few years ago who was doing the same sort of thing and making investments with employees to eliminate some of their just life, not just, their life stresses, like how to do a personal budget.
Speaker: like you know Things like that, investing in employees so that they can show up for work whole and do the job without a getting hurt keeping their mind on the task that needs to be done and and being happier it so i have seen those i have seen that And I think we are on the, yeah, I think we're on the precipice of, of some of those changes and newer, newer thinking leaders investing in those types of activities. Yeah. um I know the new president at Harmon, Matt Christian, during our last leaders meeting, it it was a big topic of ours of, you know, getting out and, you know, improving your, your mental state, your physical health state. And so he's implemented at certain times where they, they block out the,
Speaker: the HQ calendar, if you will, for all the employees that sit at HQ and they're starting to do walks, right? Team walks where it's dedicated that get away from your desk, you know, get your reset your mind or opportunities to say, okay, I'm going I get a chance to connect with, you know, an online therapist, if you will, someone I can talk to.
Speaker: Yeah. all things but those times are are you know they they talked about true dedicated times where we do there's no more meetings there's no more this is blocked off for you know physical mental well-being and and and putting some investment in that but that's easier said than done when it comes from leaders than than from the safety office for sir for sure yeah absolutely yeah Yeah, so ah here's a hard here's a hard turn, John. So one of the attendees of the webinar said that their safety department was created over a year ago and they still don't have a budget.
Speaker: And they're saying, if you're starting from zero, where do you start? So that's a great question. and And I'm actually working a little bit through this with with one of the guys that works for me right now.
Speaker: um And I have a budget, but there are certain things that you know this new role that we created in in our manufacturing spot for a new EHS manufacturing manager would like to take on and and we're we're trying to standardize on some PPE.
Speaker: right and And that typically to me, like having my own budget, OK, operations is buying their PPE. That's just one less thing for me to handle. But he's been challenged with making sure it's standardized and they're using the same vendor. And a couple of our different sites have disagreements about who the right vendor should be.
Speaker: So he wants to take it over so that he can control standardization between the the various plants. And so that's kind of gave me the answer to this question of, It never really mattered to me that PPE was in operations, but he wants to be able to control it. And so we touched a little bit about this on the webinar and going and saying, hey, do you mind if I could we break that out of your budget and I could manage that and and take that off of your plate?
Speaker: Right. um What are those other services? You know, even though so is his department, you know, the the attendees department, him him or her was created 2005 in April. they have to be spending on something, right? they They have to have some level of spend when it comes to ah to so things for safety or environmental. Go and find out what those are.
Speaker: um Identify, hey, could I, you know, guys, I know you've been using this vendor, but there's another vendor that we could use or a different way or we could change out these things Gloves or whatever. And I think we could get some savings. Is there any chance i could maybe take over this part of the budget?
Speaker: Um, and if you can show you you know, we talk about, you could establish some credibility. You can show that you care about, you know, every dollar as its purpose. Um,
Speaker: And you could then use that as an opportunity to, you know, start to carve out and say, well, how about, is there any way that maybe I could just manage this on a separate budget than I could be in charge and and take something off your plate? I think there's, you could build some small wins, build up that credibility and then start to kind of peel away that onion.
Speaker: And then as you get confidence with that, as you show wins, um, then you could you know kind of use some of the examples that you and I have gone after and said, hey, if we spend a little bit of money and maybe we can add this to my budget in those things that we talked about, right? Forecasting, yeah um budget reviews.
Speaker: If we spend a little money, I'm going to ask for some money here. I think we can reap some benefits in some of these other areas. Yeah. And you'll have built some, you'll have built some trust in, you know, for the person in our, in our webinar, who's like, I still don't have a budget.
Speaker: Um, yeah, that's so common. And it's so common that even, even through an entire career, you might not have an actual dedicated budget.
Speaker: You may have, you may have things like John and I are talking about today and that might be it. um Or maybe you will get a budget. You know, I'm thinking about, um John, to your to your story, similar similarly in terms of like taking something off someone else's plate. When I was working in the clinic system, um there, you know, that's a lot of offices, a lot of desks, a lot of labs, a lot of people sitting. So there was lots of office ergonomic risks. Yeah.
Speaker: And after I had been there a little while, some of the managers were coming to me and saying, um you know, so-and-so is requesting a new chair for their workstation. Is that something you can help me with?
Speaker: And it was this like, you know, managers were just approving or not approving office chairs. And I went to the CFO and I said, hey you know, I'm getting these requests. People want office chairs. And I don't know if we have like an actual policy. Like how often do we replace chairs? Do we have a vendor that we usually work with? And he's like, no, we don't have a vendor.
Speaker: And I said, well, in your mind, how many dollars would you, do you think is reasonable to spend on an office chair? And he gave me a number.
Speaker: And I'm like, OK, so how about I see if I can find a vendor who could give us some reasonable options and we could standardize the way we do this? And he's like, yeah, please, like do the work. No problem. yeah And so he, you know, he gave me the dollar amount. I went to ah an actual local vendor and I said, here's what I've got.
Speaker: And i need chairs that are going to do this, this, this, and this. Can you show me some samples? And can you bring those samples into the work environment? And they're like, OK.
Speaker: And so I lined all these chairs up outside of an of one of the biggest break rooms in the facility. And I put a ballot box at the end of all the chairs. And I labeled all the chairs like A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
Speaker: And I had people sit in the chairs and vote on their favorite chairs. And the top three getters are the ones that turned into the chairs that we just standardly offered. All were within the budget of the c CFO. The employees chose the chairs out of the chairs that I knew that I wanted for adjustability, and they became the standard. And then every time there was a chair request or I did an ergonomic evaluation, i was able to say, you can pick one of these three. And the managers were all like, whew, you mean like I don't have to do that anymore?
Speaker: You know, yeah that i didn't I didn't have a budget, but I did. Yeah, absolutely. You were spending other people's money. and ah Yeah, that is a fantastic example. and And there's there's so much to be said about that. Right. And and there's some tangents that we can definitely take that example.
Speaker: um So one of the questions. So. Did they approve everybody getting a new chair or was there some sort of did you break it up into, hey, over the next three years, we're going to replace everybody's chairs, starting with the oldest and most broke down, and then we'll have some sort of replacement cycle?
Speaker: Yeah, we did have it. We did. I was able to establish a cadence for that, like every so many years or and or if I did an evaluation and someone just didn't have the adjustability they needed for correct ergonomics, we could do that. Or, of course, you know, the broken, worn out. Yeah. That kind of business. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah And then did you keep up or did you kind of task maintenance with, hey, some of these will be under warranty. If they go bad, make sure we don't buy another chair, make sure that we i go after the warranty amount, then building more credibility with management to say, hey ah we're just not going to buy another chair because one broke and we don't really care. But we looked into it and this one was still under warranty and we're going to get this one replaced for free.
Speaker: Yeah, you know, I, I hand managed that stuff, John, I wasn't able to get that somewhere else. I had the relationship with the vendor. And, you know, that was a job where I was really close to those kind of things at that time, where I was trying to build my case for, you know, trust me, yeah trust me, I'm reliable, you can come to me.
Speaker: Yeah. and And that's definitely different size. And maybe if you're in a union shop, there might be yes somebody that that says, well, hey, that's kind of my responsibility. and But yeah, put all of that, right?
Speaker: Having a replacement schedule and it doesn't necessarily have to be chairs. It can be big things too. Like, hey, do we have a normal replacement schedule planned for forklifts?
Speaker: Or are we just going to drive it till the thing falls apart and the first time the mask breaks, it's going to, you know, possibly seriously injure somebody. Right. Take us out of operate, take us out of business for a bit. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Right. And in having those standup desks were probably another big one that was probably, you know, right behind, if not kind of a lot of people going through that currently. um You know, the walking treadmills. Right.
Speaker: yeah The other part of that is a double edged sword is what I'd love to get a little bit into as we're kind of going down some of the questions from from some of the attendees is what about that other side where you get people coming to you and saying, hey, Mark, this is safety, Mark, this is safety so I can, you know, I can get it through my budget.
Speaker: ha Do you have that happen? I did for a while, kind of when I was in that middle role when I didn't really have you know my own true budget. To say that I was was doing so very similar to what you were doing was you know um spending other people's money.
Speaker: There definitely would be times where um I would get the, you know there's a big button at the bottom of our you know are capital request sheet and our, uh, our operating expenses.
Speaker: Is this related to safety? And there was no real, um, description of how it related safety, any priority, any quantification of the risk is it was going to solve. It was just if, if someone in ops or one of the project managers could squeeze in and and find just the smallest inkling of how this could make it safer, they would, they would check that box. Oh, John said, right. They would try to use that to push their priority to the top above maybe somebody else's, even if it was only the slightest of safety improvements. Yeah. I had that happen more with policy things than I did with spend things. Because once people knew that I was making some headway in some areas, they'd come to me with things that were like...
Speaker: Safety policy adjacent. Let's put it that way. Got And we're trying to leverage like, hey, you should be the one that's going to push that forward. Or I've been trying, but I haven't been able to. And it was like, again, safety adjacent. And, um you know, I fell for that once and that bit me.
Speaker: Like, sure, I'll help you. You know, you want to be helpful, right? Yeah. But, you know, it wasn't squarely my lane and I needed to, you know, get good at setting a boundary to say, you know, that's that's your that's the scope of your work, not mine.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah All right. As we kind of continue through the conversation, um next one, but have you ever had a critical safety need that leadership simply would not fund? We we touched a little bit on our yeah both of our railing examples.
Speaker: yeah um Is there anything else that comes to mind and and kind of what do you do next in those scenarios? Yeah. I mean...
Speaker: the The whole no thing, a you can look at it as, well, no, not now, and I'm going to come back. Like, when would be, when can I come back and ask? Or schedule the next, you know, how about in a quarter? What about, you know, next year? You know, no can sometimes be the beginning of the conversation. um But I think maybe what we want to talk about is, like, it's a critical need. You've got to know now what are you going to do? Is that what you're thinking about, John? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So what are the hacks? So, yeah yeah. So let's maybe talk about some of, some of the hacks, which um one that I'll start with, and then maybe you want to go is finding out what can you get through your insurance providers?
Speaker: So, so, you know, everybody's paying for workers' compensation, whether it's a third party administrator, you're fully insured, or you're paying property, you know, casualty liability insurance. All of those types of insurance companies employ people like John and I, and they also employ industrial hygienists or at least contract with them. So if you're trying to like, let's say you need noise sampling done.
Speaker: um go to your insurance company and see if it's already included in what you're providing, or what you're paying for your premiums or at a greatly reduced risk rate rather. I've done that with hexavaliant chromium surveys where I got the insurance company to do it. It was it was a hack.
Speaker: It was a way to get it paid for without me actually having to ask for budget. How about you? Something else? Yeah, i was going to say the the next one that even comes to mind is, you know, pay if you are really scrunched and it's it's harder to get or or do, um there's college programs. You know, in July, you know, I remember when when I went through the program, um there were a number of businesses in the Duluth area that kind of relied on us to do some of their annual surveys, you know, they knew it was a fresh crop of students coming in. It was good for us to get the experience.
Speaker: It wasn't one of those like dire situations where, you know, Hey, we need to know if we're, you know, exposing employees or not so that, you know if we didn't quite get it right and we had professors there overlooking us, but a number of college programs, if you reach out to them and say, Hey, I'd love to partner. um We have some things that, you know, we'd love to look at is this fit in the wheelhouse of your students?
Speaker: There is some opportunity to get some free work done in there as well. Yeah, right. Yeah. And then granting was something else that we talked about. State OSHA programs, many of them, and I know Minnesota is one of them, that have offered granting programs before to fund initiatives that you need. So look into safety grants. That's another that's another hack.
Speaker: um Another attendee mentioned that the state of Ohio specifically has a granting program that's linked with insurance carriers. And I believe that's likely because Ohio from a work comp standpoint is a monopolistic state. And I know they specifically have money available. um There's a couple of other monopolistic states that in the in the US. Washington is one, John. I think there's like, is there three or five or something?
Speaker: There is. know I specifically work, I have work in Ohio and Washington. Me too. I know those two off the top of my head for sure. Yeah, me too. So yeah the other part and in the way to look at this as well is, you know, outside of some of these funding hacks that we we talked about is also showing ah cost of time, right? So if we go back and look, let's let's go back to our...
Speaker: um to the railing example that we talked about. Right. So if, if it was a hard no for us and Hey, you sorry, but you're just going to have to use the, the movable anchor point, right. yeah The weights will sit up there. They'll just have to roll it into place and and do that sort of thing.
Speaker: Uh, the ways that that we kind of also talked about it was, all right, well, you know, this is a union shop. So the, it's going to be our HVAC guys are going up there. Here's what they make. Um, every time that they're going to have to re-roll and stack the, uh, that anchor point, that movable anchor point with the weights, and then they're going have to tie off.
Speaker: They're going to to go get their harness. They're going to have to be in our fall protection program. And they weren't before because they never had anything. You know, all of the other utilities that they work on are not in the ground.
Speaker: All right. Well, you know, here's this much extra time that we're going to be paying these guys every single year. And going back and showing, getting to kind of talk to, we're getting down to that granular level.
Speaker: Yeah. All right. Well, you know, here's an extra 16 hours a year of just getting into the safety gear and filling out the forms for a work permit and, you know, getting access to the roof. Whereas if we spent the money on the guardrail, they just walk up there. They don't talk to anybody. It's fully guarded and off they go.
Speaker: That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's a good that's a good hack to prove your case later. Yeah, I like that. I like that. um We've talked quite a bit about collaboration and different internal partners. A couple that maybe we haven't talked about, HR is one of them. So I like to think about ah HR is also very compliance driven.
Speaker: beohoove And it's so similar to similar to our practice. And they also have, you know especially when it comes to training, they have training requirements as well. I'll argue that it's not as rigorous. you know There's not as many topics as as safety has. So that's a really good partnership to draw alliance with. you know ah HR departments also are invested in growing employees, upskilling employees that can also land with operations. But collaborating with your ah HR department, especially when it comes to training things, or even for for those of us who are tasked with the dreaded 300 log, which is probably everybody listening, sometimes hr departments have that. And you're like, hey, would you like me to take that off your plate? You know, I know you're using whatever system in your HRIS system that's kind of crappy.
Speaker: um How about maybe we can do that better and we can do it with a piece of software or let's collaborate on asking for budget on trainings. Yeah, we we had very something very similar a few years ago where HR was trying to purchase a ah suite of trainings online for those things you talked about, right? For the code of conduct and and stuff like that. And they're you know for a so minimal fee, they could add on the the safety module and pick up, yeah i I forget, there was another 200 safety classes in there. for online training. And so that was kind of an easy win for us to collaborate with them and and it it hits their budget, but we got the benefit of it.
Speaker: ah The other part is that some of the functionality in some of the HRIS systems. So the the one that we're using today has an LMS built into it. It came as part of the out of the box, right? So if you're looking at getting some of that stuff, it might be a, hey, this is, this may not be the best solution for us,
Speaker: But at least I got something that I didn't have to spend money on. And i can at least check one of my boxes for now. Now, down the future, if you ever wanted to separate that out because you there's a you have better solution, because a lot of times on those HRIS systems, it's There's no future development. They just kind of tacked it out in there, but you can then go and use that. Well, Hey, we have an LMS.
Speaker: We need a nicer LMS because it takes me this much time to manually load the records and and do that sort of thing. Kind of getting back to that hack where I talk about, you know, how much is my time spent doing a ah task where I could, if I automated it or used newer solution or newer software, um I can free up that much more of my time.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. What's another department, John, collaborators that we haven't touched on that you want to talk about? Risk management. I'm doing a lot of work with lately. I'd say over the last year on our property insurance side, we we've collaborated with them more.
Speaker: um The a lot of the findings that come from our risk management and our property insurance company. are mostly yeah EHS related activities. You know, when we talk about hot work and sprinkler impairment and stuff like that, it usually kind of falls within the the EHS professionals responsibilities.
Speaker: The other part of that is, you know, there's, there is some collaboration there with with maintenance groups or facilities groups, depending on how your organization is laid out. But we've worked really well of showing our, the current risk management company we're working with has great ah ROIs.
Speaker: Hey, if you improve this, This is the reduction in risk that you have. And then that in turn allows our risk team to negotiate um not only budget for us for capital projects, but then go and show when they're working with those property insurance companies.
Speaker: Hey, I want a reduction in my rate because we've done x Y and Z. That's kind of a win win for the company. So we've seen. We've done and the latest review that we did with our property insurance over the last three years since I've kind of started to take over that program and and kind of mostly own it now. we've We've done over 200 some recommendation closures from their property insurance audits.
Speaker: And this year we did, we were successfully argued, my risk managemently, successfully argued 7% reduction in our premium. And that's those are are hard numbers that management loves to see.
Speaker: Wow, that's that's a great win. That's fantastic. um you know One of the other departments that I guess I wanted to highlight, and we talked about this in the webinar as well, is the IT department.
Speaker: um you know When you're making requests for things, particularly when it comes to software, they are a collaborator that you're going to want to bring in early.
Speaker: ah Because they could shut something down 100% after you've done a lot of work by saying, you know, this is an internal risk or you know, we have our our process and system whenever we're going to bring in something new, especially when it's a piece of software. um You know, like here's our gates and this is our process and you might not know about that. So talk, especially when you're when you're asking about software, go to your IT departments and find out what sort of...
Speaker: how they how they can best partner with you and the questions that they're going to want to get in front of any vendor that you're working with. Yeah, I agree. And we we touched a little bit on them in the the webinar about there's certain certificates and testing and security protocols that yeah they're going to have, especially if you're looking at a software solution.
Speaker: The experience I had was kind of funny because we started to put into my budget ah the cost for our our latest safe or for our HSI platform. And Because i t does have a budget and they're they're you know very they they hold the ownership of their budget very tightly.
Speaker: ah alluded a little bit on that, hey, spend your whole budget or maybe a little over your budget because you want to make sure you get it. They were quick to jump out and say, well, that's a software piece that goes in our budget and we need our budget increased.
Speaker: And so it was, I had already got a little bump in my budget knowing that that software was going to be in there and then it never got taken out. Don't tell anybody. Hopefully I'm not listening. um But then the software team was like, no, no, because they want to grow their budget. They want to be able to show that, know, their worth and and what they're managing and what they're looking at. And so they quickly pulled that into their budget. And then I didn't have to really touch it after that.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, that's great. um You know, we should probably mention that one of the other tools that we offered in the webinar that I'm sure Emily will put in the in the in the show notes is John and I developed justification but budget justification toolkits, like an actual form, like a template that you can walk through. And we did three of them. We did one for um software requests, one for equipment requests, and one for service requests. and you know when we thought when we thought about our careers up to this point, it feels like everything we've ever asked for falls into one of those three buckets. And so we customized a template for you to, you know, think about and gather all the information that you're going to need. You might not present all the information that's in the justification toolkit, but you'll have it at the ready so you're not ever caught off guard. And so we put those together for for anybody who is part of the webinar and now anybody who's listening to the podcast as well.
Speaker: Yeah, let's move on. Let's see. What else do we want to talk about, John? We did have the the career development one. Someone transitioning from risk management and insurance into safety. And what advice would you give them?
Speaker: To me, that one is, you know, I think just anybody in safety, right, is is building relationships, Soft skills, getting to know your people.
Speaker: Right. and And, you know, from a risk management and insurance play, sometimes it's a, hey, you have to do this because otherwise we're going to drop your insurance. Yeah. You don't necessarily get to play that card all the time. And and I think we've talked about that, Jill, in the past where you can't go to the safety cop and you must do it, you know, whether it's budgeting or anything.
Speaker: across the safety um realm. But understanding that budgets, I'm sure, are quite different from a ah risk management insurance standpoint than they are transitioning into safety. um you know I'm sure there's some some good skills and knowledge about you know the technical pieces.
Speaker: ah But taking a look and understanding what your employer is looking at, what what do they need as you transition to that safety part, And the other part is you have to understand that facilities and employers are going look for you now finish finish any recommendations or finish on projects. I think, you know, as a consultant is, is a little bit similar to how risk management and insurance works where, Hey, I can just give you a recommendation and I get to walk away from it.
Speaker: Whereas, you know, when you're the, when you're working for an employer that, Hey, I need to take that in, in concrete, implement that that's right and kind of what that looks like. Yeah, I mean, I think that was the biggest shift for me when I went from, you know, being an investigator with OSHA into into the private sector.
Speaker: um I always thought when I left an inspection, like, oh, man, I'm glad I don't have that guy's job because they're the ones that are going to to put it all. Like, I got to just, you know, have the luxury of telling people what was wrong and how to fix it. i didn't have to implement it. and And so I guess my advice would be to really understand the goals of your business.
Speaker: you know, what are what are the KPIs of the business for this quarter, for this year and and, turn every initiative that you're working on toward those goals, you know, and being able to show like how this piece and this piece and this piece that you're working on the initiatives you're trying to get through, the money that you're asking for is aimed toward the business, being able to meet those goals for that quarter, for that year.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, as we, we kind of start to to wind down here, let's talk about some of the major, major requests. We're talking big money stuff. Yeah. um How important is it finding an executive sponsor before you make that, that major request?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's everything. Right. I i mean, in in in my opinion, in my experience, that's, that's been everything I've had the best success with operations and operations managers being able to be that person that will stand alongside you and say this is good for my, my area. How about you, John?
Speaker: Yeah, I'd say the same thing. i If it's a major request, I think, you know, we talked about some of those individual collaborators. You know, how can you use HR? How can you use ops a little bit?
Speaker: Risk management. Major requests, it's all of them, right? It's the whole list. I would say you need to intimately know your material and the request, the impact it's going to have.
Speaker: on the organization. You kind of have to be able to go from granular to the, to the top in the business acumen when you're making major, major requests. And you have to, i use I use the word socialize the idea.
Speaker: You have to be in talking about it and understanding it and making sure all of those collaborators, h r operations, engineers, facilities that everybody kind of knows and is heard almost ad nauseum of the problem of the solution, having couple different options, right. Having the, ah you know, the, the Lamborghini option and the, you know, the, the Chevy truck option down to the Suzu option, if you will, knowing, knowing that one of them is going to work, but they're still all large requests, right. But socializing it. The last thing you want is, is to get into, you
Speaker: a major budget review meeting or request meeting with leadership and they have no idea what you're talking about. Right. And everyone's like, you've taken the, you've taken the entire meeting a completely different direction and everyone's like, what, what, what, what are they talking about? Instead, you're able to say, you know, so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so and I have been working on this for a while We've vetted these sort of things. We've identified the problems in these areas. you know It doesn't have to be every single person at the so-called table, but a number of people so that everyone's heads can at least be nodding and you're not taking um ah a decision makers off guard.
Speaker: Yes. Or the rest of the room. Yeah. And so if they've heard about it and they have a general idea, they don't need to know the details as much as you. But having conversations early, knowing that when I get to the table, you know, Bob, Frank, Susie, Lynn, you know, everyone is going to know, at least have an idea of what I'm talking about and why it's been an issue and why I believe we need to spend the money and where my solutions sit.
Speaker: Versus you like we said, you you bring up, hey, I'd like to ask for, you know I'd like to request money for this. And you know you just get head scratches and blank stares because no one has any idea what you're talking about.
Speaker: That's right. Yeah, that's right. And then my closing thought on this piece before we close things out, John, is is the follow through. You know, being able to set up cadence and make some promises like, okay, you're making this investment where I'm going to come back to you after this piece, this piece and this piece. And I'm going to you know, do a readout on how it's going, what we're seeing, you know, what wins we've had, how it's aligning with business right now, and then dedicating yourself to actually doing that part.
Speaker: Yeah, and yeah I had that one of the you know you know major softwares that I rolled out with the HSI platform. It was a, hey, we like the idea. We just want more buy-in. Can you get down to this level?
Speaker: Can you do some beta testing? you know do the you know Test it out in the sandbox with this group. What did you do? how much How many records do they put in? How well did they feel comfortable?
Speaker: um Because the last thing you want to do and and a quick way to fail is for you to rush through a major costly request and And then whether it's software or equipment or whatever, and not get end user acceptance.
Speaker: Right. If you if you use a major purchase and push it through too quickly, not understanding what your end users are going to use. um And then nobody uses it and it sits on a shelf and it collects dust.
Speaker: Good luck getting any kind of approval in the second time around. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. So I guess if if I were to say, um you know, what's an action listeners can take immediately to just help, it would be just learning the vernacular.
Speaker: i Getting our resource on the accounting 101 terms, if that's something that sounds new to you, and starting there. Yeah, I 100% agree. getting Understanding the terminology and the processes that they use to get to budgets um is just huge. I mean, that's that's your first step in in understanding what you're going need and what you're to look for. And oftentimes, at you know at least through my career, typically you have a chance you know when you set goals and HR says, make sure they're smart goals and right there's timing. Yeah.
Speaker: Sometimes there's either smart goals that you can say, hey, I want to learn more about this. Or some some companies put those into, hey, you have three kind of tactical goals, but maybe you have one or two developmental goals.
Speaker: And where do you want to develop your stuff? And oftentimes, you know a lot of people will be like, oh, I want to go to a conference. right And that's HR always kind of cringes when you put that as your development goal that you want to go to a conference. Because they picture those being in Las Vegas and you not learning anything other than going out hanging out. Right. um But there are, you can, ah if you ask for a financial acumen class and there are tons of them for, you know, ah financial games for non-financial people yeah in in understanding and being part of those groups or or using that as a, Hey, I want to mentor so-and-so. And so once a month, I'm going to have a one hour sit down with, know,
Speaker: whether it's the ops guy talking about his budget or whether it's some of the financial team members, it could just be as simple as your, you know, your, your company's controller and and who does that and how those, those tasks are handled.
Speaker: Right. And just starting there and getting the base knowledge and and raising your hand and saying, I want to learn more definitely is, is the first step in the right direction. Then just a crash course. Now you have to ask for money in your way out of, you know, way out, way outside your skis.
Speaker: Right, right, right. John, thank you so much. I know we could talk about this forever. I appreciate you coming on the podcast to continue the conversation. Thanks for being here.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. It's been a joy, Jill. And thank you for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is the core of our practice. If you're not subscribed and you want to hear past and future episodes of the podcast, you can subscribe in any podcast player you'd like, or you can read the transcript and listen at hsi.com. We'd love it if you leave a reading and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like John and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.
