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Indoor Air Quality Kaiterra CEO Liam Bates
99 Plays4 years ago
GUEST / LIAM BATES / CEO OF KAITERRA
HOST / MATT MORLEY / WELLBEING CHAMPION
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 40
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome to episode 40 of the Green and Healthy Places podcast, in which we discuss wellbeing and sustainability in the worlds of real estate and hospitality. I'm your host, Matt Morley, founder of Biofilico Healthy Buildings and Wellbeing Interiors.
Meet Liam Bates, CEO of Kiterra
00:00:27
Speaker
This week, I'm in Beijing with Liam Bates, CEO of Kiterra, a company creating indoor air quality monitors combined with a software component that evaluates that data to drive improvements in indoor environmental quality and ultimately reduce a building's energy expenditure.
Why Monitor Air Quality Continuously?
00:00:44
Speaker
We discuss how outdoor air quality can impact the indoor air that we breathe, what uncomfortably high CO2 levels in closed meeting rooms really mean for your mental performance,
00:00:55
Speaker
The importance of continuous 24-7 365 data monitoring of indoor air. How efforts to create more sustainable buildings in the past may have inadvertently created less healthy buildings. The levers available to us to improve that indoor air quality and how buildings, landlords and indeed employers today need to up their game like never before, just to encourage workers back into the office.
00:01:19
Speaker
It's a topical subject, so if you enjoyed this episode, please hit subscribe for a weekly update from me. You can check out Kiterra with a K and double R dot com. Here's Liam Bates.
Kiterra's Mission and Impact
00:01:33
Speaker
Liam, pleasure to have you on the show. Let's jump into it. Why don't you give us a quick overview of your products and services at Kiterra and a little bit of background on the company history up to the present day.
00:01:45
Speaker
Sure. And yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. Very excited to talk about my favorite topic on earth. So in a nutshell, what we do at Kaitara is create solutions to help people companies.
00:01:59
Speaker
buildings understand, measure and ultimately improve their indoor environment while also reducing their carbon footprint. So low carbon healthy buildings, as human beings we spend around 90% of our time indoors and the reality is that most of the buildings in which we spend our time
00:02:21
Speaker
They weren't created with the health and well-being of the occupants in mind. Sometimes it's an afterthought, but in the vast majority of cases it's not even a thought at all. It's never really been a consideration.
00:02:34
Speaker
And given the massive impact that the environment has on how we feel and how productive and how happy we are, yeah, we think it's really important that there are improvements
Health Risks of Poor Indoor Air Quality
00:02:49
Speaker
made. So more concretely, what we're doing is we're making hardware, physical products to measure
00:02:55
Speaker
Environmental quality, specifically air quality. And then we have a layer of software on top that helps sift through that data, helps people understand it, visualize it, analyze it, and ultimately helping people to make more data-driven decisions to improve their indoor environment. So if we start big picture and we, you know, I think it's always worthwhile on these
00:03:19
Speaker
discussions to establish upfront what the negatives are, what the risks are. So if we look at what the health risks are of indoor air, I think there's a general acceptance of outdoor air pollution. But when we look at indoor air in cities, what's going on there that we, the public, need to know about? And how can this have an effect on mental and physical wellbeing during our workday or during our lives in our homes?
00:03:49
Speaker
Yeah, sure. And you brought up a really interesting point there, which is outdoor air quality. We often think that maybe there's air pollution outside. I mean, quite often, actually, we think there isn't air pollution outside. It's a problem that exists only maybe in Beijing or in New Delhi. But of course, it's an issue almost everywhere in the world. The vast majority of the planet does have issues with outdoor air quality as well.
00:04:18
Speaker
quite often indoor air quality is
00:04:22
Speaker
It's very driven by what's going on outdoors. Some of the obvious examples are if there's a wildfire burning, as we've seen happen more and more on the west coast of the US, bushfires across Australia. You see the same thing in Singapore. So if the outdoor air is polluted, the air indoors is usually not very much better. So that's one factor. The other is essentially,
00:04:50
Speaker
poor air quality that is created from within the building. And there are a few different parameters here. There are a few different things that can have an impact on us. The one that most people might be most familiar with would be CO2 levels.
00:05:04
Speaker
So we've all been in that meeting room where there's too many people, there's not enough ventilation, and you just start to feel claustrophobic, you start to feel hot. Even sometimes the temperature of the room isn't actually increasing. You just feel uncomfortable and hot and sweaty, and you think somebody needs to open a window, like let's get out of this meeting.
00:05:28
Speaker
And that's a feeling that's being driven by, amongst other things, an increased level of carbon dioxide. But there's also other important parameters, volatile organic compounds, VOCs. These are chemicals that are given off by furniture in the room, paint on the walls, sometimes even the people in the rooms as well.
00:05:54
Speaker
They have a similar impact on us. Particulate matter is probably the third.
00:06:00
Speaker
main parameter that is of concern and that can come from the outdoors, smog. It can also come from indoors. Let's say the poor ventilation between the kitchen and the office or even someone vacuuming the carpets in the morning and kicking up dust into the air. Anyone with asthma will know exactly what I'm talking about. But that's kind of the extreme scenario.
00:06:26
Speaker
You still, even if you don't suffer from asthma, you will still feel these impacts maybe in a much more subconscious way, but the impacts are clear. There's a lot of research that shows both short-term health impacts and productivity impacts, as well as long-term health impacts.
Building Certifications for Health and Environment
00:06:45
Speaker
A lot of the guidance and advocacy for a greater integration
00:06:54
Speaker
of indoor air quality monitors in new buildings and in refurbishments, particularly in big cities like London, here in Barcelona, is being led by the healthy building and the sustainable green building movement. So how do what you do around the
00:07:12
Speaker
the monetarization, so they're kind of creating that data. How does that connect with the building systems, so these sort of certification systems that are out there today? Are there differences between them? Are you seeing a common theme or common standards being set by each of them? Or is there still a lot of movement in that sense or confusion within the certification market?
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, so there's definitely a massive trend around healthy buildings in general and around the importance of monitoring and specifically continuous monitoring within those. So take maybe a few steps back into history. There's been a focus on sustainability
00:08:06
Speaker
longer than there has been healthy buildings. And, you know, we've known that energy efficiency is important. Unfortunately, often indoor, the indoor environment came sort of the cost, sort of let's say degradation of the indoor environment was a cost of creating sustainable buildings. So an interesting example that I sort of always like to use, which is a little bit extreme, but I think is a good illustration is that
00:08:34
Speaker
If you wanted to make the perfect sustainable building, what you would do is you'd probably build a concrete block with no windows, no doors, thick concrete, and no ventilation system, and you'd probably leave the lights turned off all the time. And then your building wouldn't be using any energy. And it would be incredibly sustainable, but it would be terrible for anybody that was inside that building.
00:08:57
Speaker
And that's obviously an extreme example, but historically, as we move towards putting an emphasis on energy efficiency, it often came at a cost to the ventilation and the quality of air inside the building. And so I think that's what's driven a lot of the new certifications. And great examples of this would be the well-building standard as well as reset.
00:09:23
Speaker
while having a strong focus on healthy buildings in general, with a focus on both air, but also water, nutrition, light, and reset being a certification that is more closely focused on air quality specifically.
00:09:40
Speaker
And what's interesting with both of these is that they've really been leading the charge when it comes to continuous monitoring. And what that is, is making a shift from historically how we took measurements in buildings, which is having someone come around maybe once a year with a large
00:10:00
Speaker
laboratory grade instrument, putting it in a room, taking a reading, sometimes writing it down on a notebook, and then coming back one year later to see if things were better or worse. And so it's really just a one-point-in-time measurement.
00:10:16
Speaker
Whereas what we're seeing now, which is really enabled by the shift in IoT products, connected products, more integrations with building management systems, but also with the cloud, is the potential to really be monitoring throughout an entire building in every nook and cranny 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
00:10:37
Speaker
And what's really exciting is that these building certifications are now allowing, say, more points or more paths to certification through the utilization of this data.
The Role of Continuous Monitoring
00:10:50
Speaker
And I think that's a great thing because it's really providing a true picture of what's going on inside the building as opposed to what was it like this one day when someone happened to come in.
00:11:01
Speaker
which is kind of like rolling the dice. If it happened to be polluted outside, it would look like your building was performing badly. If somebody happened to just clean the carpets that morning and there were chemicals in the building, it might look like your air quality is terrible, or vice versa. And that's really not how we should be making decisions that impact, again, where we spend 90% of our time as human beings,
00:11:27
Speaker
especially in the 21st century, with all the access to data that we have, I really believe that we should be making data-driven decisions. It's great to see things moving in that direction.
00:11:40
Speaker
It's a fundamental shift in how we think about monitoring our air. And I think it's important that we give that historical perspective that perhaps in the past it was typically exactly that, a once off measure. Now, if you do that at the beginning of a flush out, so say post fit out of a building or post construction, you typically leave it there for any number of weeks depending on how it was built. And you might take a
00:12:05
Speaker
a recording at the beginning of that flush out another one at the end of the flush out and then and then that was it but really then you've no idea you are flying blind for every consecutive day after that until the next air quality monitor reading right so it just it makes really when looking back it made very little sense and i think this is it's really empowering system to be able to say
00:12:25
Speaker
that the building management and therefore you know if the transparency and the communication and it can be as simple as a digital screen at the entrance and the reception lobby right just saying look here's what's happening today here's where we're at in terms of where the outdoor air quality is at and here's what's happening indoors on the different floors and that level of
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah, transparency, I think is the key, you know, that starts to really talk to smart buildings and the future of healthy buildings.
Improving Indoor Air Quality: Strategies and Challenges
00:12:51
Speaker
I think perhaps the question then is, you know, people might ask themselves, OK, but how what can we do? What are the levers available to improve indoor air quality? Because obviously you have to sort of the net input from the outside of that outdoor air. But then in terms of
00:13:07
Speaker
policies or strategies that can be deployed to improve indoor air, how do you typically think about that? That's a great question and it's a complicated answer and the reason and I think because it's so complicated it means that you know we have a lot of work to do because air quality
00:13:33
Speaker
when you think about it holistically is not as simple as, let's say, temperature. If you're in a room and you feel cold, you know that there's one simple solution, which is to increase the temperature. And when you increase it to a certain amount, you will feel comfortable.
00:13:48
Speaker
At least from the thermal comfort perspective. And you can also, you know exactly what the building needs to do. It simply needs to increase the temperature. And you can also work out what the energy consumption is. It's a very, you know, a relatively simple equation.
00:14:03
Speaker
to sort of translate how somebody is feeling into what should be done and what the impact is of making those decisions. Overall, air quality suddenly is a lot more complicated. So maybe to get back to the first question there, is this kind of what are the levers that we have? There are a number of things.
00:14:25
Speaker
At a most basic level, how much fresh air, how much outdoor air are we bringing into the building? And maybe the best way to look at this is individually some of the different parameters that I mentioned at the beginning. If you have high levels of carbon dioxide, that means that you need to bring in more outdoor air. And so adjusting the ventilation rate is a way that you can impact that. Of course, you can also do that by opening the windows.
00:14:51
Speaker
These things come at a cost, potentially, however, because what happens if I open the windows and there is, for example, ozone present outside, as is relatively common in many parts of the world? Or what if there is particulate matter because I'm next to a highway?
00:15:08
Speaker
This is where it gets a little bit more complicated and where a lot of our development and engineering work goes as a company is understanding the relationship between these different parameters and how they interact so that ultimately an intelligent decision can be made. Going to some of the other levers, you have, of course, the filtration rate in a filter.
00:15:30
Speaker
what is the grade of the filter in the air handling unit. So again, that comes at a cost. The higher the grade of the filter, the more particles it will filter out, the cleaner your air will be, but there will also be less air coming into the building. And so it's all a balancing equation between these different parameters and also balancing between, again, sustainability or carbon footprint and the health and wellbeing of the occupants.
00:16:00
Speaker
But there are some very simple things that can be done or some obvious changes that can be made once you have the data and once you look at the data. So examples might be, and we've seen this in a few case studies recently,
00:16:19
Speaker
changing the hours in which cleaning takes place. This is one of the potential highest ROI things that you can do. A lot of companies had cleaning schedules that were in the morning, and especially with everything COVID-related, those cleanings became very thorough. There's a lot of deep cleaning going on, which is of course a great thing, except that a lot of the chemicals that are used in the cleaning process are not necessarily very good for the people that breathe them in.
00:16:51
Speaker
It's funny, you look at a bottle of what is typically used to clean just about anything and it says if you drink this, contact poison control. There's a little skull and crossbones on the bottle saying don't drink this cleaning fluid.
00:17:08
Speaker
But the reality is that we are quite often using these materials on tables, on floors, and then they're off gassing and we're breathing those gases in throughout the rest of the day. So without having continuous monitoring where you can see this 24 hour trend, you wouldn't necessarily see that you have, by cleaning at 6am in the morning, created an enormous spike in chemicals at 8am when everyone comes into the office.
00:17:36
Speaker
So very simple change, clean at 6 p.m. instead of 6 a.m. It's outside of working hours, but that spike happens when there's nobody in the building, and then it drops throughout the rest of the night. And as long as you turn on, maybe there's still some residual chemicals in the air at, let's say, 6 a.m., but as long as the ventilation system comes on at, say, 7 a.m., one hour before anybody enters the building,
00:18:00
Speaker
they're walking into a clean, healthy environment rather than one that is potentially quite contaminated. So yeah, there's some levers that are really human-based where we understand what's going on and then we can change our behavior and some of the others which are more automated or something the building management system can control. So it sounds like you sort of have
00:18:26
Speaker
what happens before the occupants enter the building, so that might be like construction and interior fit out phase, and then what's going on during the operation and building management phase. So you sort of think of it in two major blocks. You've mentioned the low carbon footprint and energy efficiency piece, and I just wanted to dig into that a little bit if we could, just to establish the connection between
00:18:49
Speaker
your indoor air quality monitors and energy efficiency. How do you join the dots between those two?
Air Quality Monitoring and Energy Efficiency
00:18:56
Speaker
Absolutely. Great question.
00:19:00
Speaker
is a couple examples here. So maybe some background data, first of all, on just the impact on the planet of buildings. Because really, at Kiterra, our mission is very human-driven, but it's also very much driven by wanting to have a positive impact on the planet. And so some of the facts here that really shocked me when I first learned were, number one, just the impact
00:19:29
Speaker
that the impact that buildings have on our planet. So building operations account for approximately 28% of all CO2 emissions, which is an enormous number. Just running buildings is a huge contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. And that number is
00:19:52
Speaker
not really going down because we're building more and more buildings. We build a brand new New York City in terms of buildings every single month. So over the next 30 years, we are going to be adding a huge number of buildings to this planet. And all those buildings have operations going on. So there's this huge impact on the planet. And when it comes to building operations, the single largest contributor to energy consumption is the HVAC system.
00:20:22
Speaker
It accounts for, you know, we spend so much of the world's energy just moving air around a building and heating it up and cooling it down. So any optimizations that we can have on that front will have a huge impact on the planet. And it's hard to overstate how big this is. You know, we often think about how can I reduce my carbon footprint? And you might think about driving an electric car or becoming vegan.
00:20:50
Speaker
But the reality is that making the building in which you live or work slightly more energy efficient is going to bring orders of magnitude larger returns when it comes to the impact on the planet. So that's kind of a background. Let me jump into specifically answering that question, which is in the same way that when people are in a space, we want to
00:21:20
Speaker
make sure that the air is optimized and that their health is prioritized. And so that can mean things like having low levels of pollutants. When people are not in a space, we don't need to spend that same amount of energy ventilating or filtering that space.
00:21:38
Speaker
The question is, how can we utilize this data to make more intelligent decisions and essentially optimize how we run the space to save on energy? And so the simple way to look at it is, if somebody is in a space and the air quality is poor, then we should be taking actions to improve that air quality. And quite often, that's by increasing ventilation rates, for example.
00:22:08
Speaker
Just like we would do that, if the air quality in a space is already optimal, or if there is nobody in the space, then we don't need to continue filtering more air and bringing in more fresh air from the outside. So it's really just about understanding what is, at a most basic level, essentially demand control ventilation. That's sort of the most basic example here, which is that if a space is already great, let's not waste energy trying to make it even better.
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah, so an example would be if recently on the west coast of the US, for example, we've seen a lot of examples around where there's pollution coming in from the outdoors from wildfires. And it's actually quite a complex process to work out what is the best thing to do from a building perspective when that's going on. Should you bring in more air from the outside and try to filter it? Should you recirculate more air internally?
00:23:06
Speaker
should you have some combination of the two of these. And if you simply have a very basic kind of control algorithm going on, you might be essentially noticing that the air is bad and just pumping more and more and more.
00:23:24
Speaker
air from outdoors inside to try to clean it. But at the end of the day, you're just bringing in more smoke. So it's really about optimizing the logic in the system to essentially not try to ventilate more when it doesn't make sense.
00:23:43
Speaker
That wasn't a great example. Let me share another one from a concrete example from a project that I was just looking at a couple of days ago, where the ventilation system was essentially being turned on and run at levels that were unnecessary about 27% of the time.
00:24:06
Speaker
This was often tied to parts of the building not being occupied, or people not having a clear idea in real time of which parts of the building were actually being utilized in which way. But by looking at the changes in indoor pollution,
00:24:23
Speaker
And that could be a combination of CO2 and VOCs. You can actually start to identify this part of the building is being used more than other parts. The second floor right now, even though it was planned to be used, has three people in it and is being ventilated for 100 people. And so it's just about shifting where some of that load is going, maybe from one air handling unit to another. And the result is that you get better overall air quality and lower overall energy consumption.
00:24:56
Speaker
that does clarify it and particularly within the context of the sort of extreme example that you gave of the sort of perfect closed building with no ventilation at all and in many ways you know sometimes I think some of these other buildings that are just not smart in any way are effectively managed in that same way and there's just no visibility there's no transparency around what's going on inside that space and it's
00:25:19
Speaker
in a sense about taking responsibility from the building management side, right, to say, well, look, there are things we can do to make this a healthier space for the occupants, but there's also things we can do to reduce the carbon footprint of just keeping this building alive and keeping it going as an occupied space and stepping up and getting a handle on what's
Integrating Sustainability in Building Projects
00:25:39
Speaker
going on in terms of indoor air quality is both good for the people and for the planet. I think that's the message that I'm getting and that we want to try and
00:25:47
Speaker
communicate out there. So if we kind of go a level deeper and we actually think about this whole process of how Kaitira get involved, how the monitors are planned, installed and where the value is delivered over the sort of short to medium term. Can you talk us through like how typically who's bringing you in, like who's your contact person within the building project or a real estate management team and what are the steps that you then go through in terms of installing your hardware and software?
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah so and actually maybe this actually ties quite nicely to your question but also the last point that you were making. A really interesting example so okay so I guess to answer that question directly we
00:26:35
Speaker
We work with a few different groups, typically. Initiatives around the indoor environment could be coming from a sustainability perspective. So often that would be, we'd be working with the, let's say the director of sustainability. It could be coming from facilities management who are receiving a lot of complaints. People are either complaining because they just feel bad in the space.
00:27:05
Speaker
Or it's simply that they they're concerned and there is no transparency and that's that's definitely a major issue this year Especially as with all the news that's that has been around around the transmission of viruses. What is my Facility doing to prevent this and what is the quality of air because there is a well-known correlation between these two things the third
00:27:31
Speaker
direction that where we often get brought in is is from call it sort of an employee experience perspective. And so that might be driven by HR head of people. It depends on the firm, but really trying to say what can we do to make sure that our occupants are happy and healthy and productive and they feel great coming to work. And I think this is really being this is becoming more and more important in the future because
00:28:02
Speaker
A lot of companies still want to have their people come into the office at least a few days a week, but
00:28:10
Speaker
It's not, you know, it's not like things were before. Things have changed. The world has changed. And if you're, you know, if you're asking me to come to the office or you want me to actually come to the office because I want to, it hopefully, you know, it needs to be a pretty good office. It needs to be better than my home, right? I have to want to go into the office and of course have human interactions, but also be in a physically comfortable, mentally stimulating environment that maybe I don't get in my living room.
00:28:41
Speaker
And so that's also a big piece of what is driving initial reach out
Case Study: Optimizing Air Quality in the US
00:28:47
Speaker
with us. And often we come in and interact with these different groups together. A really funny example was a project in the US, in the Bay Area, that we were working on recently. And we were analyzing some of the data and working with the customer and looking at it and saying,
00:29:05
Speaker
Well, you can see that you have excellent air quality when the space is occupied, and the air quality isn't great overnight.
00:29:17
Speaker
But that's fine because there's nobody there. And a lot of that's because the ventilation system is turned off. The HVAC is turned off at night, which is great. They're saving energy, and the air is great when people need to be there. However, on the weekends, from the data, it looks like the HVAC system is still running. And you have great air quality throughout the weekend when there's nobody there.
00:29:38
Speaker
And this is a really interesting sort of discussion that takes place between facility management and the sustainability people and the employee experience people where nobody had realized that they had set this, you know, facility management had set a timer to try and optimize for occupant experience and energy efficiency to turn on the ventilation system at specific hours when the building was most occupied. But no one had bothered to turn it off on Saturday and Sunday.
00:30:04
Speaker
So this building was running at full power for two days a week when there was nobody there. And that is just such low-hanging fruit that, you know, just kind of observing this conversation is really interesting because you've got the sustainability person that's going, wait, we're doing what? Why? And there was, I don't know, just set up this way.
00:30:26
Speaker
So that's kind of an example, I think, of where our Kitera solutions were installed in the project. We work with multiple different stakeholders, and within a very short period of time, we've been able to find some really obvious problems that you wouldn't otherwise see.
00:30:45
Speaker
because air is air is invisible it's not like you can't see it without a sensor you really have no idea what's going on but once you see it suddenly your eyes are opened and there are changes that you can make that have a very rapid impact on again both people and sustainability.
00:31:07
Speaker
There's a couple of things there. Firstly, the fact that in your case study, the indoor air quality was going down and down and down, getting worse and worse when there was nobody in the building and the HVAC was off. As in, if you let the building just do its own thing, it becomes an unhealthy building and you're then into the sick building syndrome. It's a constant battle, right? I think it's a crucial point to get across. They're not necessarily healthy places to be, especially if the installation, the furniture,
00:31:36
Speaker
the paints, etc., haven't been chosen for low toxins, low toxic qualities, etc. So I think that's one thing. The other thing is that, as you sort of suggested, you know, I think the game has just changed, right? Post-COVID, like the world is not going back to how it was.
00:31:52
Speaker
Employees are just asking a lot more questions. HR teams are rightly asking more from the buildings they inhabit. So we have to go there just as a last question. You referenced the connection between the transmission of airborne diseases, i.e. COVID, amongst others, and indoor air quality. So let's try and quell any doubts. How do you stand on that position? There's a lot of confusion out there around this, but from where you're at now sitting in Beijing in almost the end of 2021,
00:32:22
Speaker
What's the position?
Air Quality and Disease Transmission
00:32:23
Speaker
What do we need to know about airborne diseases and indoor air quality? I mean, I think at this point there's no doubt that, I mean, there's a reason that we put, you know, you put a mask over your mouth because there are particles that are, you know, coming out when you breathe and they spread throughout a building. If you have
00:32:49
Speaker
If you have an HVAC system that is recirculating air, that's obviously not great. So it's really important to take the right strategies when it comes to how you handle air quality and how you handle your air.
00:33:04
Speaker
Viruses are in the air. They latch onto particles. If there are physical things floating around in your air, which there always are because that's just the nature of air quality. Air is not just molecules of oxygen and nitrogen floating around. It's also all these particles. And a lot of things stick to those particles. So in summary, I think there's absolutely no doubt that air quality and the air is tied to the transmission of viruses
00:33:33
Speaker
There's plenty of evidence that shows this, both when you look at the particles in the air, but also the importance of having the correct levels of humidity, relative humidity, and so on. All of these things have an impact and there's really no doubt anymore at this point.
00:33:50
Speaker
Cool. Well, I really encourage everyone to kind of get a handle on this because if we're out there in the world of interiors and real estate, I think you kind of need to be au fait with what's happening and thank you for your time. It's been a really informative conversation. In terms of people following along, learning a bit more from Kiterra, what are your preferred social media channels?
00:34:10
Speaker
Yeah, so definitely you can check us out at kiterra.com, of course, and definitely our LinkedIn profile. So just search Kiterra. You can also search me up, Liam Bates, and we're always sharing lots of exciting content about
00:34:26
Speaker
the indoor environment. We have a lot of technical articles on our website as well. So if this is something that anyone's interested in, want to learn more about, definitely check out our LinkedIn and our website. Yeah, it's a really, you've got a very informative blog. It goes far wider than just based around your products and services. I think it's a really worthwhile read. So congrats on that and everything you've been doing. Thanks for your time, man. Yeah, thank you. It was great talking.